{"error":false,"id":["170010"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170010,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170010","日期":"2026-06-17","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-17T09:37:11+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-17T09:48:47+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d79496a9ef369d5f1e5b60bc182cda03ff6f11fc4da20edf4b529d86e3a74c30828b4faf1e99e5f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:37:11 - 09:48:47","會議時間":"2026-06-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、併案審查\n（一）委員賴士葆等27人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一、第三十五條之二及第三十五條之三條文草案」案。\n（二）委員翁曉玲等16人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（三）委員羅廷瑋等21人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（四）委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（五）委員王鴻薇等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（六）委員李柏毅等19人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一及第三十五條之二條文草案」案。\n（七）委員楊瓊瓔等28人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等21人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一及第三十五條之二條文草案」案。\n（九）委員林思銘等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n（十）委員林倩綺等17人擬具「律師法增訂第三十五條之一條文草案」案。\n二、併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員王鴻薇等18人擬具「律師法第七條及第七十四條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員陳素月等18人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員沈發惠等17人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員羅智強等17人擬具「律師法第七條、第七十四條及第七十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「律師法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【6月17日及18日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":7.03409375,"end":9.548468750000001,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":9.61596875,"end":10.965968750000002,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":11.607218750000001,"end":12.51846875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":14.30721875,"end":14.695343750000003,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":14.695343750000003,"end":14.762843750000002,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":14.83034375,"end":85.92471875000001,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":86.80221875000001,"end":123.70784375000001,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":124.19721875,"end":124.66971875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":124.29846875000001,"end":125.15909375000001,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":125.88471875,"end":144.22784375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":126.66096875000001,"end":127.96034375,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":132.36471875,"end":133.41096875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":144.98721875,"end":154.08284375000002,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":145.52721875,"end":145.93221875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":149.61096875,"end":151.18034375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":154.08284375000002,"end":155.12909375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":154.57221875000002,"end":157.32284375,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":157.98096875000002,"end":159.44909375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":158.25096875,"end":160.49534375000002,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":160.93409375000002,"end":162.14909375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":161.81159375000001,"end":163.51596875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":163.56659375,"end":165.23721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":164.56221875,"end":168.78096875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":169.01721875,"end":171.85221875000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":172.15596875,"end":178.68659375000001,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":179.34471875,"end":180.84659375,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":179.39534375000002,"end":180.08721875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":180.98159375,"end":196.59096875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":182.95596875,"end":183.96846875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":196.16909375,"end":200.70846875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":200.64096875,"end":203.89784375000002,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":201.45096875000002,"end":202.76721875,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"翁委員曉玲","start":203.32409375,"end":205.24784375000002,"speaker_score":0.936},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":205.11284375000002,"end":207.54284375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":208.31909375,"end":215.40659375,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":215.45721875,"end":218.08971875,"speaker_score":0.968},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"馮次長成","start":218.20784375000002,"end":224.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謝謝莊昭偉那接下來我們請馮次長請馮次長委員好好 次長好我想這個近期這涉及到律師方面的新聞挺多的那麼這個我們其實社會基本上一方面就是認為說其實律師的人是安全需要保護但另外一方面我們也看到了一些新聞尤其是現在發現怎麼連律師都會成為犯罪的共犯"},{"start":35.829,"end":62.868,"text":"那麼涉及介入涉及到像是詐欺案啊洗錢案啊等等這些事情啊層出不窮那剛剛其實陳昭之委員在先前之後已經也提到了譬如說有這個鄭大邦的律師好像涉及這個詐團成為詐團的軍師那麼也有像是律師他是涉及到這個泄密洗錢那網紅的仙塔律師也是涉及到洗錢泄密罪那麼以及這個我們有所謂台"},{"start":63.669,"end":83.444,"text":"板地面師律師之稱的這個蔡宏森那麼他也收賄那麼事實上就是這些都涉及到律師他很明顯的這樣的一個違法行為那麼可是呢我們現在對於就是有關律師的懲戒制度還有法律依據的部分呢本期在這邊想跟想要請教想要請教次長的那麼也就是說"},{"start":86.877,"end":107.822,"text":"我们知道其实在现在律师法第86条的规定,就同一个事件在刑事侦查或审判中是不停止惩戒程序,但是惩戒处分的若是以犯罪是否成立为段,律师惩戒委员会认为有必要的时候可以在刑事判决确定前停止惩戒程序。"},{"start":108.963,"end":123.28,"text":"那麼所以首先我想請教次長就是說以我們剛剛講的那個蔡鴻升律師的這個案子為例那目前他有被停止他的懲戒程序是停止進行中嗎還是說"},{"start":125.919,"end":143.673,"text":"跟委員報告 蔡鴻升這個他的犯罪事實是勾結員警跟里長 偽造獨居老人的遺囑那詐領的這個遺產跟不動產1.4億元那這個部分上台北地院判處有期徒刑25年 案件上訴在高院審理中目前律師懲戒的結果是停止執行職務"},{"start":145.08,"end":165.097,"text":"好所以就是說就這個案子來講就是律師審計委員會他已經做成了這個決定那麼就是停止停止職務對不對對只是停止職務那對於他的律師身份呢律師身份目前還沒有說要測銷他的律師資格目前還沒有那以這個案子這麼嚴重來講的話他未來有可能會測銷他的律師資格嗎這個可能看最後的判決的狀況吧"},{"start":172.253,"end":180.626,"text":"所以就是說現在律師懲戒委員會基本上也可以做成嚴重的這個結果就是說是整個撤銷當時的律師職格是吧"},{"start":181.338,"end":207.104,"text":"應該最重是除名啦對 最重是除名但是以目前上面的狀況看起來程序是走到暫時先停止職務因為除名這個部分剛剛我們司法院的代表也有提到這個是最重的一個處分可是譬如說以蔡鴻升這個例子來講他一審判決應該不是說他判了多少判了25年是嗎對所以他這案子非常的嚴重對 但是因為畢竟他還不是確定判決"},{"start":208.362,"end":213.808,"text":"所以我們有時候如果就把他除名掉了這對他這個還是只是暫時先停止他職務那懲戒法院這邊應該是認為這樣的部分"},{"start":215.629,"end":234.218,"text":"已經就是暫時就是沒有辦法執行職務就先夠 剩下的等到最後確定的狀況再看怎麼樣去做懲戒處分不過就是說是我想這個案子也是就是國人非常關注的一個案子尤其是這個律師他本身知法玩法又犯法然後但是如果說以這個情況來看的話就縱使現在一審的判決判他25年然後"},{"start":239.22,"end":261.549,"text":"這個律師懲戒委員會還只是讓他停止職務那麼我認為說這個部分其實是值得去這個檢討就是說類似像這種情形這麼嚴重的話是不是一開始其實他的律師不僅是停止職務然後甚至連他的資格都要被撤銷好那麼這個部分是本席的一個看法那當然了也有看到就是說實務上似乎現在也把"},{"start":261.989,"end":289.207,"text":"这个86条里面的这个原则变成例外也就是说现在会不会大部分的很多惩戒案件都可能因为说这个案子本身还在刑事诉讼的这个审理中所以就暂时停止惩戒程序不知道就是次长知不知道说现在目前整个律师惩戒委员会他们对于类似像这样的案子的做法"},{"start":292.189,"end":310.807,"text":"詳細數據我手邊是沒有啦但是剛剛那一件就是在還沒有確定之下他們就已經做了那個停職的一個這個執行職務的一個這樣的一個處分所以事實上我想說如果地方公會有一副懲戒然後這個就會有時間的限制那我想懲戒法院這邊或是律師懲戒委員會這邊也會做這個妥適"},{"start":313.329,"end":329.261,"text":"是因为今天我提这个问题当然是比较临时那我也希望说次长是不是可以两个礼拜之内给我一份就是说防护对于这个相关停止惩戒惩税的案件好吗近五年来"},{"start":330.942,"end":351.638,"text":"這個是律師懲戒委員會的資料業務我們會幫忙協助委員如果說需要更長時間的話那就再請你們聯絡人再告訴我因為我想說能夠了解整體就是台灣現在的我們律師各地的律師公會對於類似這種交付懲戒的案子他們如果說是依照律師法的這個但書規定"},{"start":352.799,"end":376.998,"text":"而停止懲戒程序的案有多少委員我們是不是不要限制兩個禮拜因為這不是我們本部的我們盡速去跟律師懲戒委員會去要資料所以接下來我也要針對不知道次長您知不知道現在各個地方的律師公會對於懲戒移送的標準以及處理的速度"},{"start":377.418,"end":385.868,"text":"是不是大家有共同辦理的指引還是說大家其實做法是不盡相同法務部對於這個部分有沒有了解"},{"start":387.521,"end":412.15,"text":"這個我們還是尊重律師的自治的一個部分這我們保證不會去針對地方公會這地方去下職是 那如果這樣的話其實可能有順便就是說也要將就是目前就是各個律師公會他們可能移送就是有受理受理這些懲戒的案件還有他們辦理的狀況可能就一併就讓本席知道然後一般來說他們應該都會有一個懲戒"},{"start":415.512,"end":434.574,"text":"就是審理懲戒注意事項法務部這裡都沒有督導這些各地的律師公會跟委員講說我們這邊我們會再去跟律師全會這邊大家去再我們有一些聯繫的一個機會嘛那我們會再跟他們說明委員的這樣的一個希望說大家能夠標準一字話啦這個"},{"start":435.555,"end":458.028,"text":"或者是說至少讓我們知道就是說他們目前的標準是不是有一些明顯差異和是共同的這個審理的狀況是怎麼樣好然後還有一個問題就是說我們也知道其實在過去這些年裡面有些就是法官他們可能本身是為師後來就是卸任然後轉任律師那麼對於像這種轉任律師的這樣的一個轉任"},{"start":460.569,"end":483.832,"text":"律師的這個法官那麼事實上他們在進行相關的這個訴訟案件的部分那未來有沒有可能會有一些重大的一個疑慮就是對於我們就是在法院司法實務上面可能已經有為事的法官他們轉任律師我們這個部分未來需不需要做更嚴格的一個審理"},{"start":484.298,"end":502.689,"text":"目前的這個 目前律師法第五條是說如果受一年以上一年的有期徒刑以上的裁判確定那這個部分認為說罪名跟情節有影響到律師的信譽的部分那這個部分我們是不會發 這個是說不得發給律師證書"},{"start":504.65,"end":511.656,"text":"對不過就是這一條來講的話就是本席認為說可能之後也請法務部可以研議是不是我們要提高這個法官轉任律師的標準因為現在來講的話他大概就是已經要很重大的案件然後才不能夠去轉任律師但是我們基本上我們也希望因為律師畢竟是在野法槽所以對於他的專業還有他的人格各方面他的品性品德我們都希望能夠提高標準"},{"start":530.992,"end":537.456,"text":"好 那還有就是說對於就是我們知道因為就像我們剛剛在前面說的在實務上其實律師涉及到重大詐欺 虛擬資產以及不動產的犯罪案件當中那麼常常會有涉及到就是像資金移轉 交易設計甚至帳戶管理的這些狀況也就是說"},{"start":552.765,"end":573.096,"text":"應該這麼說就是律師他在處理重大詐欺虛擬資產及不動產的犯罪當中會涉及到有關於就是當事人的資金移轉交易設計以及帳戶管理這些狀況那我們知道就是依照洗錢防治法的規定那事實上會計師跟律師目前都有已經納入非金融事業"},{"start":574.497,"end":587.286,"text":"的人員他成為就是洗房法要規範的申報義務人所以如果一旦他們發現有疑似洗錢或是滋恐交易必須要向調查局申報所以這個部分的話這是等於是律師的義務那我想了解就是說法務部或是調查局這邊有沒有就是你們有沒有一個數據就是說近五年來律師他發現可疑交易申報的件數為何"},{"start":602.657,"end":620.644,"text":"他有主動申報的這個件數有多少法務部這裡有做一些統計嗎目前我們應該是我們也是一樣會後再一起提給委員這邊好嗎因為正確的數字我我可能要再更新一下好那麼因為這個議題也蠻重要的因為畢竟我們現在洗房法已經克於"},{"start":621.164,"end":644.365,"text":"律師有這樣的一個義務責任但是實際上到底他們是不是會主動申報這也涉及到我們未來就是相關的犯罪的偵查辦理都有關係所以本席希望法務部這裡可以提供給本席近五年來律師的可疑交易的針對可疑交易還有洗錢等等這些申報件數"},{"start":645.686,"end":669.534,"text":"的統計數字還有就是說法務部實際上有沒有對一些律師事務所有去進行查核這部分有嗎應該是有辦實際查核這個部分我們回去會實際上就是你們去律師事務所實地查核的件數以及因為違反洗錢防治義務而遭裁罰或移送懲戒的案件數以上這幾個議題都麻煩法務部給本席一份"},{"start":674.697,"end":694.77,"text":"統計的資料本身想要了解到底實際上就是在律師遵循洗房法這個部分他們做的情況如何以及法務部這個督導的情形那就麻煩次長一個月之內給我這份報告可以嗎我們會盡速一個月之內弄好我們就立刻聳不會等到一個月我們會盡速好的那就謝謝次長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.402000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊召委，接下來請馮次長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.422000+08:00","text":"請馮次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.442000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.502000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:37:18.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:38:25.978000+08:00","text":"近期涉及到律師方面的新聞挺多的，其實社會基本上一方面認為律師的人身安全需要保護，但另外一方面，我們也看到了一些新聞，發現怎麼連律師都會成為犯罪的共犯，涉及到像是詐欺案、洗錢案等等這些事情層出不窮，陳昭姿委員先前時也有提到，譬如說有政大幫的律師好像涉及詐團，成為詐團的軍師，也有律師涉及到洩密、洗錢，網紅仙塔律師也是涉及到洗錢、洩密罪，以及有所謂臺版地面師律師的蔡鴻燊也收賄，這些都涉及到律師很明顯的違法行為。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:38:27.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:38:58.802000+08:00","text":"對於律師的懲戒制度和法律依據的部分，本席在這邊想要請教次長，我們知道現在律師法第八十六條的規定，同一個事件在刑事偵查或審判中是不停止懲戒程序，但是懲戒處分如果是以犯罪是否成立為斷，律師懲戒委員會認為有必要時候，可以在刑事判決確定前停止懲戒程序。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:00.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:14.260000+08:00","text":"首先我想請教次長，以我們剛剛講的蔡鴻燊律師這個案子為例，目前他的懲戒程序是停止進行中嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:14.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:14.260000+08:00","text":"還是他有併行？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:16.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:34.673000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，蔡鴻燊的犯罪事實是勾結員警跟里長偽造獨居老人的遺囑，詐領遺產跟不動產1.4億元，這個部分，臺北地院判處有期徒刑25年，案件上訴，在高院審理中，目前律師懲戒的結果是停止執行職務。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:36.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:45.708000+08:00","text":"好，所以就這個案子來講，就是律師懲戒委員會已經做成了決定，就是停止職務，對不對？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:45.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:46.649000+08:00","text":"對，目前是停止職務。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:46.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:48.070000+08:00","text":"那對於他的律師身分呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:49.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:52.154000+08:00","text":"目前還沒有說要撤銷他的律師資格？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:52.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:52.414000+08:00","text":"目前還沒有，因為還沒確定。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:52.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:54.656000+08:00","text":"以這個案子這麼嚴重來講的話，未來有可能會撤銷他的律師資格嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:39:54.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:39:56.077000+08:00","text":"這個可能看最後判決的狀況吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:03.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:11.606000+08:00","text":"所以現在律師懲戒委員會基本上也可以做成嚴重的結果，就是整個撤銷當事人的律師資格是吧？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:12.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:13.298000+08:00","text":"最重應該是除名。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:14.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:15.359000+08:00","text":"對，除名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:15.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:27.181000+08:00","text":"但是以目前的狀況看起來，程序是走到先暫時停止職務，因為除名這個部分，剛剛我們司法院代表也有提到，這個是最重的一個處分。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:27.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:31.522000+08:00","text":"可是以蔡鴻燊這個例子來講，他一審判決，你剛剛說他判了多少？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:32.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:34.543000+08:00","text":"判了25年，是嗎？對……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:34.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:35.983000+08:00","text":"所以他這案子非常的嚴重！","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:36.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:40:54.933000+08:00","text":"對，但畢竟他還不是確定判決，所以我們如果就把他除名掉了，這對他……只是暫時先停止他職務，懲戒委員會這邊應該是認為這樣的部分，就是暫時沒有辦法執行職務就先夠了，剩下的等到最後確定的狀況再看怎麼樣去做懲戒處分。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:40:55.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:41:26.707000+08:00","text":"我想這個案子也是國人非常關注的一個案子，尤其是這個律師本身知法玩法又犯法，但是如果以這個情況來看，縱使現在一審判決判他25年，然後律師懲戒委員會還只是讓他停止職務，我認為這個部分其實是值得去檢討，就是類似像這種情形這麼嚴重的話，是不是一開始律師不僅是要停止職務，甚至連他的資格都要被撤銷？","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:41:27.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:41:28.867000+08:00","text":"這個部分是本席的一個看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:41:29.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:41:52.202000+08:00","text":"當然實務上也有看到，似乎現在也把第八十六條裡面的原則變成例外，也就是說，會不會大部分的懲戒案件可能因為案子本身還在刑事訴訟的審理中，所以就暫時停止懲戒程序？","quality":0.685},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:41:52.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:00.187000+08:00","text":"不知道次長知不知道目前整個律師懲戒委員會對於類似像這樣的案子的做法是如何？","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:03.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:21.727000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，詳細數據我手邊沒有，但是剛剛那一件，在還沒有確定之下，他們就已經做了停止執行職務這樣的一個處分，所以事實上我想如果地方公會有移付懲戒，就會有時間的限制，我想律師懲戒委員會這邊也會做妥適的處理。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:21.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:37.979000+08:00","text":"我今天提這個問題當然是比較臨時，我也希望次長是不是可以在兩個禮拜之內給我一份報告，就是法務部對於相關停止懲戒程序的案件？","quality":0.509},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:39.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:40.040000+08:00","text":"近五年來的就可以了。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:41.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:47.626000+08:00","text":"這個是律師懲戒委員會的一個資料業務，我們會幫忙協助委員這邊去問問看。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:47.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:42:51.089000+08:00","text":"如果說需要更長時間的話，再請你們聯絡人告訴我。好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:42:51.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:06.441000+08:00","text":"因為我想了解臺灣現在各地的律師公會，對於類似這種交付懲戒的案子，依照律師法第八十六條但書規定而停止懲戒程序的案子有多少？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:07.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:09.624000+08:00","text":"委員，是不是不要限制兩個禮拜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:09.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:11.685000+08:00","text":"因為這不是我們本部的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:11.685000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:13.006000+08:00","text":"我說一個月，好嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:13.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:15.648000+08:00","text":"好，我們儘速去跟律師懲戒委員會要資料。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:17.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:35.106000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我要針對的是，不知道次長知不知道，現在各個地方律師公會對於懲戒移送的標準以及處理的速度，是不是有一個大家共同辦理的指引，還是大家的做法是不盡相同？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:35.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:36.848000+08:00","text":"法務部對於這個部分有沒有了解？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:38.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:43:45.424000+08:00","text":"我們還是尊重律師的自治，法務部不會針對地方公會去下指引。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:43:46.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:44:01.830000+08:00","text":"如果這樣的話，也要將目前各個律師公會可能移送的……就是有受理的這些懲戒案件以及他們辦理的狀況，可能就一併讓本席知道。是。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:44:02.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:44:12.499000+08:00","text":"一般來說，他們應該都會有一個審理懲戒注意事項，法務部都沒有督導各地的律師公會進行相關懲戒？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:44:12.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:44:25.113000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們會再去跟律師全聯會這邊……我們有一些聯繫的機會，我們會再跟他們說明委員希望大家能夠標準一致化。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:44:26.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:44:33.859000+08:00","text":"或者是至少讓我們知道他們目前的標準是不是有一些明顯差異或是共同的審理狀況是怎麼樣。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:44:34.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:03.300000+08:00","text":"然後還有一個問題，我們也知道，其實在過去這些年有些法官可能本身有違失，後來卸任轉任律師，對於像這種轉任律師的法官，他們在進行相關訴訟案件的部分，未來有沒有可能會有一些重大的疑慮？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:45:03.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:14.812000+08:00","text":"就是對於在法院、司法實務上面可能已經有違失的法官，他們轉任律師，對於這個部分，我們未來需不需要做更嚴格的審理？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:45:14.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:20.241000+08:00","text":"或是更嚴格的認定，應該這麼說。","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:45:20.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:26.064000+08:00","text":"目前律師法第五條是規定「受一年有期徒刑以上刑之裁判確定，依其罪名及情節足認有害於律師之信譽。","quality":0.512},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:45:27.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:33.689000+08:00","text":"」這個情形是不得發給律師證書。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:45:35.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:45:42.636000+08:00","text":"對，不過就這一條來講，本席認為可能之後也請法務部可以研議是不是要提高法官轉任律師的標準，因為現在大概是已經有很重大的案件才不能夠轉任律師，但是因為律師畢竟是在野法曹，所以基本上對於他的專業、人格、品性、品德等各方面，我們都希望能夠提高標準。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:46:02.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:46:50.821000+08:00","text":"還有，就像我們剛才前面所說的，在實務上，律師涉及到重大詐欺、虛擬資產及不動產的犯罪案件當中，常常會涉及到像是資金移轉、交易設計甚至帳戶管理等這些狀況，應該這麼說，就是律師在處理重大詐欺、虛擬資產及不動產的犯罪當中，會涉及到有關於當事人的資金移轉、交易設計以及帳戶管理這些狀況，我們知道依照洗錢防制法的規定，事實上會計師跟律師目前都已經納入「指定之非金融事業或人員」，成為洗防法規範的申報義務人。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:46:51.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:46:56.705000+08:00","text":"所以如果一旦他們發現客戶交易疑似洗錢或是資恐時，必須要向調查局申報，這個等於是律師的義務。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:46:56.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:46:58.266000+08:00","text":"那麼我想了解的是，法務部或是調查局這邊有沒有相關的數據，就是近五年來律師發現可疑交易申報的件數為何？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:13.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:47:16.338000+08:00","text":"他有主動申報的件數有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:16.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:47:19.159000+08:00","text":"法務部這裡有做一些統計嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:21.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:47:24.041000+08:00","text":"這個部分也是一樣，我們會後再一起提給委員好嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:24.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:47:26.522000+08:00","text":"因為正確的數字，我可能要再更新一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:26.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:47:57.526000+08:00","text":"好，這個議題也滿重要的，畢竟現在洗防法已經課予律師有這樣一個義務責任，但是實際上到底他們是不是會主動申報，這也涉及到我們未來對相關犯罪的偵查、辦理，都有關係，所以本席希望法務部可以提供給本席近五年來律師針對可疑交易及洗錢等等這些申報件數的統計數字。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:47:59.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:06.149000+08:00","text":"另外，法務部實際上有沒有對一些律師事務所去進行查核，這個部分有嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:06.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:09.891000+08:00","text":"應該是有辦實際查核，這個部分，我們回去會一起說明。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:10.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:40.607000+08:00","text":"好，你們去律師事務所實地查核的件數以及因為違反洗錢防制義務而遭裁罰或移送懲戒的案件數，以上這幾個議題，都麻煩法務部給本席一份統計的資料，本席想要了解到底實際上律師遵循洗防法的執行情況如何，以及法務部督導的情形，就麻煩次長一個月之內給我這份報告，可以嗎？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:40.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:44.369000+08:00","text":"是，我們會儘速，一個月之內弄好，我們就立刻送，不會等到一個月，我們會儘速。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:44.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:45.770000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:46.270000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:48.270000+08:00","text":"謝謝翁曉玲委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T09:48:48.570000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T09:48:51.712857+08:00","text":"接下來請張雅琳委員詢答。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}