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問范允教授請馮次長你好"},{"start":23.433,"end":52.182,"text":"市長早安今天我們的主題是律師的倫理跟相關的風紀自律所以我要用一個個案來討論制度上的問題要請求法務部協助這個個案是這樣子想請問這個市長如果就是有一位律師他接觸女高中生然後提供義務的法律諮詢可是卻讓這個女高中生覺得"},{"start":53.643,"end":67.433,"text":"女高中生後來上了大學覺得對方在她不同意之後還是搂腰超過十次甚至在後來跟對方的對話中講出我這邊所寫的沒有一夜情經驗要怎麼談性權"},{"start":72.617,"end":88.478,"text":"然後我還沒攻略過花蓮女孩有吃過一個護士的花蓮人而且這個所謂的受害者申訴人明確表達這樣子聽了很不舒服您覺得這個人如果是律師的話是不是有違反相關的紀律"},{"start":92.224,"end":112.621,"text":"這個律師有倫理規範那剛剛我們那個召委第一條也有唸得很清楚就是這個律師法的相關的這個規範事實上來講我覺得這樣的這個部分大概社會上都有公平那以如果這個是我就講檢察官的角度來看就如果以檢察官是涉及到這樣的狀況的話那大概我看"},{"start":113.181,"end":134.687,"text":"之前的類似的案子裡面很多都被免職轉事務官了大概我們的檢察官的標準裡面我們的守則裡面是覺得是不行的您覺得是有違反它相關的專業倫理因為這個專業倫理的部分可能要有法律的一個諮詢的過程我們還是尊重律師自治就律師的一個他們的一個倫理規範的部分我們不便去介入評價"},{"start":135.447,"end":162.737,"text":"但我這轉化成說如果我們檢察官內部是這樣的話我們就會去處理那如果律師的自治團體律師公會是律師自治團體嗎覺得應該要懲戒之後應該怎麼處理律師會有那個懲戒委員會他們會去判斷那他們如果認定這個行為重大應該懲戒要怎麼處理最重的當然他有很多的不同的狀況嘛那個剛剛有提到說有的會被認為要停止職務有的會被最重的會除名"},{"start":163.311,"end":186.419,"text":"就是有從輕度停止一段時間的職務到最重度的是除名如果是很大的案件那我剛跟您講的這個是一個真實的陳情人那她是一位女性那這個你看她有跟我們開記者會所以她是願意站出來的是MeToo運動中一個出來吹哨的黃 當時是學生黃同學"},{"start":189.6,"end":205.131,"text":"那他在高中的時候就被理性律師主動接觸2016年被理性律師肢體性騷擾後來呢他跟理性律師要求表達不舒服或希望對方能夠表達歉意之後繼續被言語性騷擾"},{"start":206.232,"end":234.563,"text":"那後來呢他站出來吹哨接到至少七位受害人跟他聯絡就是這位李姓律師不是只有針對一位女性所以呢這整個他被這位李姓律師性騷擾時間橫跨2010年到2020年那真的非常勇敢的女性他開記者會的時候並沒有戴口罩所以這是當時的媒體的報導"},{"start":235.983,"end":258.329,"text":"那後來呢他覺得這當時MeToo我們有非常多包含由律師等等我們希望律師、會計師、牙醫師、醫師、中醫師、建築師這個都有可能涉及到不對等的專業權利關係的都可以自律我們本來以為就是事情就這樣子了那因為律師公會表達他們很願意接觸被害人"},{"start":259.169,"end":286.488,"text":"所以一起開記者會可是呢沒有想到就是這件事情到現在還沒有結果這是2020剛剛那是202幾年2023年的站出來了你想想一位年輕的女性要對一位專業年紀比較大的律師就是做這樣的陳述那我還是要先肯定台北律師公會接到申訴之後有處理"},{"start":287.646,"end":305.515,"text":"這是他們的案件的決定書2025年7月他怎麼決定他們調查之後說這位李姓律師利用執行職務之機會與委任人有不當之肢體接觸足以損害律師名譽或信用之行為"},{"start":306.295,"end":332.67,"text":"有失律師職業尊嚴及榮譽並避免損及律師形象不符合律師職業之品位與尊嚴違反律師法第二條第三十九條律師倫理規範第三條第六條等規定而且情節重大當屬無疑這個是台北律師公會的報告就是我們跟他請問他提供給我們的報告那再來應該怎麼樣這是次長"},{"start":335.271,"end":359.327,"text":"知事知道嗎跟委員報告其實一般來講地方公會它有一副懲戒的這個一送懲戒的權利那會到律師懲戒委員會那依照律師法第八九條第一項的規定律師懲戒委員會應於受理的懲戒事件後三個月內完成審議必要時的延長到六個月所以事實上來講就是說如果照這個部分上面來看它基本上"},{"start":360.188,"end":375.469,"text":"律懲會的這個成員包括法官檢察官律師如果我不曉得目前這一個案的一個實際的狀況都可能還要再回去嗎所以依照您剛剛那個答被如流2025年7月如果送給律師懲戒委員會半年內會有結果"},{"start":377.311,"end":395.944,"text":"應該是這樣子法條是規定說受理懲戒事件後三個月內完成審議必要時得延長至三個月內完成審議必要時得延長至六個月所以說這一件的部分我們可能回去再跟方文"},{"start":396.084,"end":413.673,"text":"我現在不是只是為這個個案我知道那也讓那個次長知道一下這個案子的情況2025年7月台北律師工會就移赴律師懲戒委員會您講的6個月應該是今年1月那現在是2026年6月"},{"start":415.914,"end":441.262,"text":"目前進度不明啊那後來這個受害當事人就決定委託司改會幫他追了一位當事人不可能追得到律師懲戒委員會連司改會這麼重要一個律師的組織都你知道得到的答案就是進度不明欸所以完全不是您剛講的三個月到六個月內會有結果"},{"start":443.543,"end":471.946,"text":"那不知道為什麼我們去查相關的規定跟您講的不太一樣就是所謂的律師懲戒及審議細則就是還定的是分案後兩個月內要做成審議意見一個月內要召開審議會議審議會議七日內做成決議聽起來很有效率分案後兩個月一個月好像三個月加七天之類的可是問題是什麼時候分案我們辦公室追一追"},{"start":473.027,"end":496.95,"text":"一副律師懲戒委員會到分案之間不知道要多久欸好像沒有規定跟您剛剛講的那個三個月六個月非常不一樣欸到底是哪裡出了問題這個次長公務委員報告我們講的這個條文是律師法第八十九條第一項它是法律那委員現在秀在螢幕上這個是律師懲戒跟審議的所以這個行政命令違反法律"},{"start":497.29,"end":525.948,"text":"也不是 它是更進一步的去定怎麼樣去操作這樣的一個事情那可是已經違反你剛剛講的法律定的六個月所以委員 這個不是本部的業務所以我們會去幫忙了解請問這是哪一個單位 是司法院嗎司法院可不可以也一起一下今天來了是吳廳長因為那個次長說是你們的業務的確是 這個律師承接委員會預算是放在你們司法院嗎"},{"start":526.778,"end":541.701,"text":"沒有說是他們啦,就是說不是我們那是誰?不是法務部是誰的業務?這個律師懲戒委員會懲戒委員會應該是一個獨立的機關吧是獨立的他不會隸屬於司法院也不會那這樣子他的這個細節、細則已經影響人民權益的話那應該誰來處理?他這麼獨立"},{"start":553.597,"end":571.315,"text":"細則應該是法務部來主管所以剛法務部說你們 然後你們說法務部應該這麼說啦 就是懲戒委員會是一個獨立的那律師法是本部主管的業務然後我們的律師法規定的這89條我剛剛已經唸給委員聽了嘛那至於細則這個部分細則是誰管 這個律師懲戒及審議細則是誰管"},{"start":575.279,"end":604.644,"text":"其實是按照律師法去定這樣律師法主管機關是保護所以就不是司法院囉所以說跟委員報告它是它是這個規定出了問題還是操作出了問題我不知道啊林市長林市司法保護長官嘛因為今天委員提的這個事情我們是就是我們聽到以後我們回去會了解一下說可能這個因為這個獨立的單位裡面它有沒有分案或者移送的狀況怎麼樣細節的部分我們會再跟委員做一個說明跟報告"},{"start":604.804,"end":630.421,"text":"那我要講的事情是這麼勇敢一個女生這麼2023年就站出來現在是2026年了這樣子一個案子而且台北律師公會說情節重大然後當事人站出來之後還有多個受害人跟他聯絡所以最後就是一個當事人出來申訴而且有司改會在背後追都追到現在沒結果"},{"start":631.001,"end":648.224,"text":"我真的不知道大家其他人是怎麼樣追這些事情林仲豪律師在司改會的座談會說律師懲戒有三大挑戰他的意思是說調查權能空洞化法律適用僵化資源組織轉型不足所以常常塞案"},{"start":649.125,"end":677.993,"text":"所以我們今天修法修了半天到時候這個機制根本就沒有用處那我們修這個法我很懷疑就是說司法院跟法務部有沒有真正在關心這件事情好那我告訴你我們辦公室去查我們作為立委助理都看到地方律師公會根本就沒有把這個申訴程序放在網站上所以公開申訴管道也不明確所以大家顯然都不希望有人來申訴相關的事情"},{"start":678.553,"end":698.288,"text":"所以我們修法修半天是不是根本就沒有效果那我認為多數的律師都是非常的專業很棒像我們那個昭偉這個大律師真的是非常好可是呢我們不可以讓少數個別律師影響律師整體專業形象嘛這是我們法務部跟司法院要保護的對不對"},{"start":699.449,"end":723.802,"text":"所以可不可以研究一下其他民主國家的律師自律做法跟你剛剛的那個所謂的那個行政命令等等到底是哪裡本國的這個相關行政規範哪裡出問題那協助律師公會至少建置可供民眾申訴的公開管道網站上是不是可以寫清楚一點流程那最後也請司法院"},{"start":725.086,"end":748.537,"text":"雖然這個行政命令是法務部管的預算是放在你們那裡的司改會的座談會說沒有錢人太少所以塞車是不是可以提供資源讓律師懲戒委員會不要再以人力不足為由一個案子可以拖這麼的久就是拖了連台北律師公會送進去都一年了沒有下文當事人得不到一個交代"},{"start":748.857,"end":772.628,"text":"可以嗎 這三件事 法務部兩件 司法院一件可以答應我 可以做到嗎我們回去第一會了解這個委員剛剛提的這個案件的部分目前到底是哪裡出了問題那第二個部分就是說有關於說因為我們的這個律師就剛剛我們講他有高度的一個自治性那我們這部分因為我們也會跟律師公會這邊都有很多接觸的一個機會"},{"start":773.188,"end":793.501,"text":"自治的台北律師公會說這個人案情重大 送懲戒了我們會把建議他們就是說讓我們的一些制度上的東西能夠更順暢更透明這個部分我們會去跟他們做那我們在修罰懲戒的時候這個機制要是能夠運作有效率的而不是讓大家覺得被吃案了好不好"},{"start":795.002,"end":821.895,"text":"也跟委員說明一下那個綠城會的預算並不是由司法院編的那目前是由司法院高院提供場地跟書記官來協助綠城會開會而已那綠城會如果說他資源不足塞案那這是應該誰提供資源你們一個法務部一個司法院都說不知道這不是很奇特嗎委員我們回去再把他了解清楚我們辦公室看到的預算是在司法院下面啦"},{"start":824.228,"end":846.085,"text":"獨立 但他預算總不會叫那些律師代表自己出吧好好"},{"start":847.183,"end":863.318,"text":"兩位一位是次長 法務部次長一位是司法院司法行政廳廳長兩位都不知道這個資源誰提供可見大家沒有在關心這個律師懲戒委員會好不好請你們回去了解清楚多久內可以給本席一個書面報告還是有個時間吧我們這樣可以追蹤"},{"start":871.052,"end":874.86,"text":"一個月 兩位都可以一個月一個月我等你們報告 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:21.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:29:21.049000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:21.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:29:21.389000+08:00","text":"有請馮次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:21.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:29:25.913000+08:00","text":"范雲教授請馮次長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:44.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:29:44.953000+08:00","text":"次長早安。早。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:45.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:29:56.257000+08:00","text":"今天我們的主題是律師倫理跟相關的風紀自律，我要用一個個案來討論制度上的問題，要請求法務部協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:29:58.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:30:44.792000+08:00","text":"這個個案是這樣，想請問次長，如果有一位律師，他接觸女高中生，提供義務的法律諮詢，可是卻讓女高中生覺得……女高中生後來上了大學，覺得對方在他不同意的情況下，還是摟腰超過10次，甚至後來跟對方的對話中，講出我這邊所寫的「沒有一夜情經驗要怎麼談性權」、「我還沒攻略過花蓮女孩……有吃過一個護士的花蓮人」，這個所謂的受害者、申訴人明確表達這樣子聽了很不舒服。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:30:45.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:30:49.458000+08:00","text":"您覺得這個人如果是律師的話，是不是有違反相關的紀律？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:30:53.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:00.910000+08:00","text":"律師有倫理規範，剛剛召委第一條也唸得很清楚，就是律師法的相關規範。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:00.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:05.934000+08:00","text":"事實上，我覺得這個部分，大概社會上都有公評。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:07.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:22.523000+08:00","text":"以檢察官的角度來看，如果以檢察官涉及到這樣的狀況的話，我看之前類似的案子，很多都被免職、轉事務官，大概我們檢察官守則裡面覺得是不行的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:23.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:27.024000+08:00","text":"您覺得是有違反他相關的專業倫理，因為這個有一個……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:27.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:28.025000+08:00","text":"專業倫理的部分，可能是要由……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:28.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:29.725000+08:00","text":"法律諮詢的過程……","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:29.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:35.687000+08:00","text":"我們還是尊重律師自治，就律師倫理規範的部分，我們不便去介入評價。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:36.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:40.228000+08:00","text":"但我轉化成說，如果我們檢察官內部是這樣的話，我們就會去做處理。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:40.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:48.051000+08:00","text":"如果律師的自治團體，律師公會是律師自治團體嘛，覺得應該要懲戒之後，應該怎麼處理？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:49.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:51.432000+08:00","text":"律師會有懲戒委員會，他們會去判斷，律師懲戒……","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:51.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:31:55.574000+08:00","text":"他們如果認定這個行為重大應該懲戒，要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:31:55.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:32:03.717000+08:00","text":"最重的……當然有很多不同的狀況，剛剛有提到有的會被認為要停止職務，有的最重的會除名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:32:04.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:32:11.213000+08:00","text":"就是有從輕度停止一段時間的職務，到最重度的是除名，如果是很大的案件。是。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:32:12.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:32:37.025000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟您講的是一個真實的陳情人，他是一位女性，你看他有跟我們開記者會，所以他是願意站出來的，是#MeToo運動中一個出來吹哨的黃同學，當時是學生，他在高中的時候就被李姓律師主動接觸，2016年被李姓律師肢體性騷擾。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:32:38.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:32:46.131000+08:00","text":"他跟李姓律師表達不舒服，希望對方能夠表達歉意之後，繼續被言語性騷擾。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:32:47.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:33:15.563000+08:00","text":"後來他站出來吹哨，接到至少七位受害人跟他聯絡，就是這位李姓律師不是只有針對一位女性，他被這位李姓律師性騷擾時間橫跨2010年到2020年，真的是非常勇敢的女性，他開記者會的時候並沒有戴口罩，這是當時媒體的報導。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:33:18.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:33:47.094000+08:00","text":"當時#MeToo我們有非常多包含律師等等，我們希望律師、會計師、牙醫師、醫師、中醫師、建築師可能涉及到不對等專業權利關係的這些人都可以自律，我們本來以為事情就這樣子了，因為律師公會表達他們很願意接住被害人，所以一起開記者會，可是沒有想到這件事情到現在還沒有結果。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:33:50.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:34:13.909000+08:00","text":"2023年他站出來了，你想想看，一位年輕的女性要對一位專業、年紀比他大的律師做這樣的陳述……我還是要先肯定台北律師公會接到申訴之後有處理，這是他們案件的決定書，2025年7月他們怎麼決定？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:34:14.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:34:44.565000+08:00","text":"他們調查之後說，這位李姓律師利用執行職務之機會，與委任人有不當之肢體接觸，足以損害律師名譽或信用之行為，有失律師職業尊嚴及榮譽，並避免損及律師形象、不符合律師職業之品味與尊嚴，違反律師法第二條、第三十九條、律師倫理規範第三條、第六條等規定，而且情節重大，當屬無疑。","quality":0.992},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:34:45.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:34:51.849000+08:00","text":"這是台北律師公會的報告，也就是我們請問他，他提供給我們的報告。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:34:53.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:34:58.292000+08:00","text":"再來應該要怎麼樣，次長知道嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:34:58.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:15.564000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實一般來講，地方公會有移送懲戒的權力，之後會到律師懲戒委員會，依照律師法第八十九條第一項的規定，律師懲戒委員會應於受理懲戒事件後3個月內完成審議，必要時得延長到6個月。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:17.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:28.658000+08:00","text":"如果照這部分來看，基本上律懲會的成員，包括法官、檢察官、律師……我不曉得目前這案實際的狀況，可能還要再回去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:29.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:36.449000+08:00","text":"您剛剛答背如流，2025年7月如果送給律師懲戒委員會半年內會有結果，是不是？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:38.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:47.177000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣子，法條是規定受理懲戒事件後3個月內完成審議，必要時得延長至……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:47.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:51.560000+08:00","text":"3個月內完成審議，必要時得延長至6個月，所以延長到6個月……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:53.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:56.464000+08:00","text":"得延長至6個月，這一件我們可能回去再跟相關人員了解一下。","quality":0.44},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:57.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:35:59.585000+08:00","text":"我現在不只是為這個個案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:35:59.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:36:00.126000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:36:00.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:36:18.335000+08:00","text":"也讓那個次長知道一下這個案子的情況，2025年7月台北律師公會就移付律師懲戒委員會，您講的延長至6個月應該是今年1月，現在是2026年6月，目前進度不明。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:36:18.335000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:36:19.415000+08:00","text":"是不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:36:19.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:36:49.087000+08:00","text":"後來這個受害當事人就決定委託司改會幫他追這個案子，因為當事人不可能追得到律師懲戒委員會，連司改會這麼重要的律師組織，得到的答案竟是進度不明，所以完全不是您剛剛講的3個月到6個月內會有結果，不知道為什麼我們去查相關的規定跟您講的不太一樣？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:36:50.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:03.018000+08:00","text":"律師懲戒及審議細則還規定是分案後2個月內要做成審議意見，1個月內要召開審議會議，審議會議7日內做成決議書。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:03.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:11.025000+08:00","text":"聽起來很有效率，分案後的2個月、1個月，這樣是3個月加7天，可是問題是什麼時候分案？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:11.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:18.411000+08:00","text":"我們辦公室追一追，移付律師懲戒委員會到分案之間不知道要多久？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:19.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:25.718000+08:00","text":"好像沒有規定，跟您剛剛講的3個月、6個月非常不一樣，次長，到底是哪裡出了問題？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:26.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:31.544000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們講的這個條文是律師法第八十九條第一項，它是法律。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:32.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:35.808000+08:00","text":"委員現在show在螢幕上是律師懲戒跟審議細則，它在……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:35.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:37.930000+08:00","text":"所以這個行政命令違反法律？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:37.930000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:38.930000+08:00","text":"還是超越法律？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:38.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:43.373000+08:00","text":"也不是，它是更進一步地去訂怎麼樣去操作這樣的事情，它還是應該要在這個上面……","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:43.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:45.995000+08:00","text":"可是已經違反你剛剛講的法律定的6個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:46.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:49.697000+08:00","text":"委員，因為這個不是本部的業務，我們會去幫忙了解。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:50.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:51.658000+08:00","text":"請問這是哪一個單位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:51.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:53.119000+08:00","text":"是司法院嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:53.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:54.300000+08:00","text":"司法院下懲戒委員會？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:54.300000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:55.300000+08:00","text":"也不是喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:54.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:37:55.501000+08:00","text":"司法院可不可以一起上來？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:37:56.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:00.404000+08:00","text":"今天來的是吳廳長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:00.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:06.948000+08:00","text":"因為次長說是你們的業務，的確是，律師懲戒委員會預算是放在你們司法院嗎？不是。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:07.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:10.699000+08:00","text":"沒有說是他們，就是說不是我們。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:10.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:12.359000+08:00","text":"那是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:12.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:14.939000+08:00","text":"不是法務部，律師懲戒委員會是誰的業務？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:14.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:17.740000+08:00","text":"懲戒委員會應該是一個獨立機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:17.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:18.520000+08:00","text":"是獨立的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:18.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:21.241000+08:00","text":"它不會隸屬於司法院，也不會……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:21.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:22.441000+08:00","text":"那它的細則已經影響人民權益的話，應該誰來處理？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:22.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:22.681000+08:00","text":"它這麼獨立？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:34.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:36.299000+08:00","text":"細則應該是法務部來主管。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:36.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:38.501000+08:00","text":"剛剛法務部說你們，然後你們說法務部。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:40.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:49.572000+08:00","text":"應該說懲戒委員會是獨立的，律師法是本部主管的業務，我們律師法規定的第八十九條，我剛剛已經念給委員聽了。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:50.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:50.813000+08:00","text":"至於細則這個部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:51.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:52.295000+08:00","text":"律師懲戒及審議細則是誰管？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:56.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:38:58.939000+08:00","text":"其實是按照律師法去訂這樣的規定。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:38:58.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:00.180000+08:00","text":"按照律師法，律師法主管機關是……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:00.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:01.460000+08:00","text":"是我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:01.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:02.380000+08:00","text":"是法務部，所以就不是司法院？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:03.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:07.881000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，它是這個規定出了問題，還是操作出了問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:07.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:09.021000+08:00","text":"我不知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:11.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:12.082000+08:00","text":"您是法務部長官嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:12.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:25.624000+08:00","text":"所以我們會去了解這個狀況，因為今天委員提的這個事情，我們聽到以後，我們回去會了解一下這個獨立的單位裡面，它有沒有分案或者移送的狀況怎麼樣，細節部分，我們會再跟委員說明跟報告。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:25.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:39:55.085000+08:00","text":"好，我要講的事情是，這麼勇敢的一個女生，2023年就站出來，現在是2026年，這樣的一個案子，而且台北律師公會說情節重大，當事人站出來之後，還有多個受害人跟他聯絡，最後是一個當事人出來申訴，而且有司改會在背後追，但追到現在沒結果，我真的不知道其他人是怎麼樣追這些事情？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:39:56.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:40:09.204000+08:00","text":"林仲豪律師在司改會的座談會說，律師懲戒有三大挑戰，調查權能空洞化、法律適用僵化、資源組織轉型不足，所以常常塞案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:40:10.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:40:22.168000+08:00","text":"我們今天修法修半天，到時候這個機制根本就沒有用處，那我們修這個法，我很懷疑司法院跟法務部有沒有真正在關心這件事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:40:23.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:40:43.416000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，我們辦公室去查，我們立委助理看到地方律師公會根本就沒有把申訴程序放在網站上，公開申訴管道也不明確，大家顯然都不希望有人來申訴相關的事情，所以我們修法修半天，是不是根本就沒有效果？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:40:44.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:40:59.288000+08:00","text":"我認為多數的律師都是非常專業，很棒，像我們召委大律師真的非常好，可是我們不可以讓少數個別律師影響律師整體專業形象，這是法務部跟司法院要保護的，對不對？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:00.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:13.836000+08:00","text":"可不可以研究一下其他民主國家的律師自律作法，跟你剛剛說的行政命令、本國的相關行政規範等等到底是哪裡出問題？","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:14.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:22.460000+08:00","text":"另外，協助律師公會至少建置可供民眾申訴的公開管道，網站上流程是不是可以寫清楚一點？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:23.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:34.070000+08:00","text":"最後也請司法院，雖然這個行政命令是法務部管的，預算是放在你們那裡，司改會的座談會說沒有錢、人太少，所以塞車。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:34.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:51.358000+08:00","text":"是不是可以提供資源，讓律師懲戒委員會不要再以人力不足為由，一個案子可以拖這麼久，台北律師公會送進去都一年了，卻沒有下文，當事人得不到一個交代，可以嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:51.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:54.599000+08:00","text":"這三件事，其中法務部兩件、司法院一件，可以答應我？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:55.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:41:56.120000+08:00","text":"可以做到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:41:56.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:02.043000+08:00","text":"第一，我們回去會了解委員剛剛提的這個案件，目前到底是哪裡出了問題。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:02.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:13.628000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，剛剛我們講過，因為我們的律師有高度的自治性，這部分因為我們跟律師公會都有很多接觸的機會，我們會……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:14.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:19.291000+08:00","text":"對，自治的臺北律師公會說這個人案情重大，送懲戒了。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:19.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:26.776000+08:00","text":"我們會建議他們，讓我們一些制度上的東西能夠更順暢跟透明，這部分我們會去跟他們說明。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:27.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:34.481000+08:00","text":"好，我們在懲戒修法的時候，這個機制要是能夠運作且有效率的，而不是讓大家覺得被吃案了，好不好？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:34.481000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:36.142000+08:00","text":"是，不會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:36.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:39.884000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，律懲會的預算並不是由司法院編的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:39.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:40.884000+08:00","text":"請問是由誰編的呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:40.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:47.147000+08:00","text":"目前是由司法院高院提供場地，以及跟書記官來協助律懲會開會而已。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:48.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:52.150000+08:00","text":"律懲會如果說他資源不足導致塞案，這應該誰提供資源？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:52.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:58.233000+08:00","text":"你們一個法務部、一個司法院都說不知道，這不是很奇特嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳廳長祚丞","start":"2026-06-17T10:42:58.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:42:59.953000+08:00","text":"委員，我們回去再把它了解清楚。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:00.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:02.675000+08:00","text":"我們辦公室看到的預算是在司法院下面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:02.675000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:05.228000+08:00","text":"律懲會是一個獨立……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:05.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:08.791000+08:00","text":"獨立，但是它的預算總不會叫那些律師代表自己出吧！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:08.791000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:18.487000+08:00","text":"獨立是對分案的部分，其實規定是有，還是要照著規定走，您提的這件事情我們會去了解到底是沒有移送到律懲會？","quality":0},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:18.487000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:28.183000+08:00","text":"還是律懲會分案的時間耽擱了，我們會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:28.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:43.918000+08:00","text":"你們兩位，一位是法務部次長、一位是司法院司法行政廳廳長，兩位都不知道這個資源是誰提供，可見大家沒有在關心律師懲戒委員會，請你們回去了解清楚，多久內可以給本席一個書面報告？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:43.918000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:44.918000+08:00","text":"是不是儘速……","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:43.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:44.318000+08:00","text":"還是有個時間吧，讓我們可以追蹤。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:44.318000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:52.934000+08:00","text":"1個月好不好？1個月？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:52.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:53.535000+08:00","text":"兩位都可以1個月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:55.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:55.860000+08:00","text":"好，1個月內我等你們的報告，謝謝。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:56.360000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:43:57.502857+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T10:43:57.802857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:44:00.374286+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員的詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T10:44:00.674286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:44:06.388571+08:00","text":"我們稍後在王委員鴻薇詢答完畢以後，休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-17T10:44:06.688571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:44:10.117143+08:00","text":"接續請許委員宇甄進行詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（范委員雲代）","start":"2026-06-17T10:44:10.417143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-17T10:44:12.131429+08:00","text":"請許宇甄委員。","quality":0}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}