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請部長及兩位署長"},{"start":34.878,"end":57.637,"text":"中委好部長好今天我的題目呢防晶片疏中法規要趕快補漏競速遏止擴大水位集聚來符合水資源的順位來我先請教部長晶片的用途很多元武器也是嘛對不對對那現在成熟製程的晶片說一般導彈無人載具各式武器那高階的先進晶片可以用在精準導彈超級電腦跟傳統管制哪一種需要管制"},{"start":58.657,"end":85.853,"text":"現在只要用這個武器的部分基本上所以這兩種不管是高階先進的還是成熟製程的都應該進行流向管制對不對對所以我們現在有那個實體清單只要這個實體清單跟對岸的有軍事用途有關的我們會放到實體清單裡面不只這樣子喔有沒有看到這個新聞今年3月的時候美超為內鬼走私揮打晶片對不對是的那鬧得很大上週已經開始那個地檢已經開始跟他們起訴了"},{"start":86.613,"end":101.335,"text":"那麼他們是違反了美國進出口管制條例EAR那麼目的要限制中國取得先進晶片而且據說這也是美方提供情資那我們的人再去抓人是這樣嗎詳細的是不是請署長"},{"start":103.032,"end":118.53,"text":"報告委員好 事實上我們跟美方持續在有持續在針對相關的管制有在合作所以根據美方的EAR他提供情資我們台灣就抓人但是在去年我們看到台灣據報導台灣對華為和中興實質技術出口管制"},{"start":124.196,"end":134.429,"text":"是針對這兩家公司啊請問美超委的內軌轉賣輝達的產品是透過第三國東南亞到中國哪個公司是華為嗎 是中興嗎部長 是不是這兩家"},{"start":137.163,"end":162.896,"text":"應該不是 應該不是 來部長請部長講喔如果說美國的ERR賣到中國就不行那我們台灣居然只限定不能賣給華為跟中興這樣對嗎報告委員他現在我們當然跟美方齁有持續的在溝通看看怎麼樣做我是說美方說只要賣到中國的有軍事用途的高階的就不行但是台灣自己"},{"start":163.596,"end":191.77,"text":"自己要求自己的高科技管制只限定不能到華為跟中興會不會不夠啊我們會跟美方有一個討論我們自己要不要要求啊會 我先問一下我們為什麼要制裁這些國家中國 北韓 伊朗 伊拉克 敘利亞 蘇丹為什麼我們對這些國家要進行戰略性高科技物品的管制清單包括軍商兩用的 包括一般軍用的軍事武器用途的是不是 你說的管制安全是幹嘛那為什麼我們要對這幾個國家下手"},{"start":194.558,"end":212.227,"text":"對 因為他可能會用到軍事用途不是啦 是因為這幾個國家美國都制裁啦我們是跟著美國去制裁的 對不對這幾個國家就是因為恐攻跟美國在很多地區掀起了軍事對抗所以美國制裁他所以我們也跟著制裁 對不對"},{"start":213.983,"end":242.882,"text":"我們現在還是針對這個瓦森納協定相關的規範有一些規範美方我們是配合他有跟他互相的溝通那因為他如果這個廠商在台灣如果違反了美國法令我們會跟美方做一些溝通所以其實很清楚今天民主同盟這個不是隨便說說嘛台灣跟美日這些民主同盟我們對這些有敵意的軍事威脅的國家我們都一起同步同作嘛對不對好往下看"},{"start":243.963,"end":266.608,"text":"但是目前在我們自己國家 我們所謂的戰略性高科技貨品附中只有12項貨品受限 包括半導體 製造設備那其他的呢 戰略性的是適用非管制地域的規定為什麼 為什麼我們只有這12項不像美國或其他國家清的那麼長什麼原因 時空背景是什麼"},{"start":268.44,"end":287.552,"text":"報告委員我們還是回歸到那個瓦斯納協定這個部分有軍事用途那這12項是瓦斯納協定嗎12項半導體的晶圓製造設備是嗎報告委員當初這12項是因為我們為了保持在比如說我們對中國投資那我們需要維持我們的競爭優勢沒有錯啦"},{"start":289.431,"end":316.479,"text":"部長 劉組長說出來了啦早年在半導體晶圓我們是既競爭又合作我們跟中國是台廠到中國設廠組裝台灣的晶片圈圈組裝好了賣到美國去 賣到美國市場但是我們不希望中國能夠有先進晶圓的製造技術所以晶圓的製造設備是限制到中國的但是晶片沒有嘛因為晶片到那邊台廠裝好了就賣美國嘛 是不是這樣子"},{"start":317.341,"end":345.836,"text":"因為我們之前主要是限制去那邊做投資啦對啦 我的意思是說過去啊過去在國際分工上台灣跟中央和美國 美國是市場但是台灣的產業到中國設立以後便便便便我們的晶片到那邊組裝好之後賣到美國市場但是我們不讓中國取得高階晶片的製造技術嘛這是我們跟他競爭觀那現在不一樣了嘛現在全世界除了那幾個國家之外對台灣最有敵意的是不是中國"},{"start":347.537,"end":373.622,"text":"是嘛好那我們看一看所以這個問題要改來我們看下一頁有沒有把中國列為晶片的輸出管制區貿易法第27條27條之二如果是27條違法輸往管制區的要5年以下有期徒刑但是如果27條之二違法輸往未管制地區的是300萬華環請問一個刑事罰一個刑事罰中國現在我們晶片是屬於到中國是管制區還是未管制區說明一下"},{"start":376.002,"end":402.762,"text":"目前不是管制區對嘛 部長有沒有看到很嚴重有沒有很嚴重美國都對我們美超為內鬼私下把揮打的晶片弄到中國去就要求我們配合制裁配合處罰我們自己對我們的晶片往中國是非管制區欸報告委員我們揮打這件事情來講的話也不是美方制裁而已因為他也圍繞我們自己的法律規定沒有刑責嘛"},{"start":404.964,"end":425.945,"text":"哪一個有刑責 署長剛剛說非管制區沒有刑責嘛我不是說那個案子 我說現在的晶片有沒有列入管制目前沒有 沒有的就是請看沒有結果就是民團說要求旁邊的劉署長下台啦要求我們張明斌以前的投資臺灣公司下台啦部長你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":427.305,"end":450.063,"text":"滿意嗎沒有 我是說因為我們跟美方之間我現在不是問美方對中國對台灣最不友善你對中國沒有任何的管制嗎我們會開始著手開始不夠啦現在人要你署長下台了啦你怎麼處置我們就是會開始著手怎麼做 你是要修改現在的法律規定還是另訂專門法律會修改相關的法律什麼時候修改"},{"start":451.443,"end":470.59,"text":"現在已經在...在那個...什麼時候可以給本席看?可以給委員會看?因為8號委員...還是等劉書長下台的時候還可以看?沒有沒有,因為這個事情的話我們還要跟行政院跟國安單位...太慢了吧!部長,我要說的是說過去台灣的法令跟美國有落差是因為我們過去台灣跟中國之間有一個合作競爭的關係"},{"start":472.01,"end":482.663,"text":"現在他是全世界的公敵 天下圍攻美國要制裁 台灣跟進但是台灣自己的法律還把晶片輸到中國 把中國列為非管制區馬上改 可以嗎"},{"start":484.619,"end":506.859,"text":"可以嗎 馬上改報告委員 經濟部是執行機關 那個規定是誰的是主管機關 是嘛 那你還說是執行機關 那本市議案來改好不好但是涉及國安的部分 涉及國安立法院不能提喔可以可以 是嘛 在立法院民運黨的國安天只有民眾黨跟國民黨啦 不是你經濟部啦"},{"start":508.032,"end":528.749,"text":"好 我們看一下下一題 台水公司連年虧損來 氣候變遷 漏水率太高 暫時造成了成本大漲 什麼原因 部長因為這個水價已經 應該30年了 幾十年沒有了你認為水價太低對不對 說得好 我們就要看來 台水公司的建設誰出錢 水利署你們花了多少錢"},{"start":530.106,"end":551.863,"text":"水智能開發給社會維護機會都是供自來水的嘛我念給你聽啊 浮流水開發23億多啦無自來水低於18億多啦 降低漏水13億多啦13億了 總共52.5億 公務預算對不對部長 這不是水工資支出的他有分成兩個部分喔我知道 我覺得是公務預算嘛那為什麼不是水工支出 因為水費太低嘛 你剛剛自己講了嘛"},{"start":552.847,"end":582.167,"text":"是不是 就水費太低沒有錢投資嘛往下看來 為什麼自來水法59條要怎樣 計算公式詳細細目最高段的水單價太低嘛有沒有二條了耗水費的徵收辦法第三條115年度水資源作業基金耗水費的收入可以收多少7.2億 收太少了嘛公務預算支出了五十幾億我們的耗水費只收了7.2億部長 怎麼解決還有 水利法第15條水權有沒有要付費"},{"start":584.142,"end":608.897,"text":"現在水權我們沒有在收費啊對 我想我們未來還是說因為基層哪一個先改水權要收水費先還是耗水費提高先還是把自來水法當中的最高段水價單價提高哪一個先做我覺得基層民眾的部分那個我們保障最高段的水單價開低沒有跟基層民眾有關哪一個要先做我覺得那個部分可以先做好 什麼時候做"},{"start":610.151,"end":617.377,"text":"我們即刻來規劃 規劃水公司誰管 國營司來 什麼都可以做了 我們一下看"},{"start":619.006,"end":646.014,"text":"來 仔細聽好 水資源是必需品水價要劫富濟貧根據我們水利法第18條用水的標的民生用水優先人口最多 它是需求必需品再來是農業生產 才是工業用水工業用水又有分能夠出口 有競爭力 能賺錢的這個就是高外匯收入是不是經濟部先救高外匯盈利收入的工業大戶的大用水戶他不需要補貼嘛"},{"start":647.094,"end":675.492,"text":"是不是提高他的單價我說我剛剛提到我們先從這個部分來做規劃好馬上就做那我們要看到明年我們自來水公司收的水費不要還是虧損累累都還要靠公務預算支出用人民的稅金來補貼可以嗎因為我們也鼓勵這些所謂的高耗水的大戶他可以節能或循環使用是沒有錯他都在做了但是再生水目前是誰投資做的經濟部嘛"},{"start":677.501,"end":696.802,"text":"我們經濟部也有 內政部也有他們這個再生水是誰在用大部分都是這些科技公司剛剛就說了嘛 這些能夠有外銷有競爭能力的 有創會能力的他可以成本可以轉嫁的他們用股票 他們用再生水結果還是政府投資啊"},{"start":699.074,"end":724.805,"text":"不過他們付出的水價是比較高的當然要付的比較高啊 他們可以轉價啊一個金麵麵可以賣好幾千好幾萬美金 為什麼不可能轉價但是我們一般的民生 小店家 家庭用水水價提高它就是生活的成本這個我們認為國家補貼 應該的但是對這些大用水戶 尤其是特別具有移轉成本能力的 這些創位能力的是不是要他趕快來下手"},{"start":725.385,"end":750.217,"text":"對,我剛剛提到了,我們會先從...好,那什麼時候可以給本席一個答覆?你們什麼時候開始做?最後,有沒有?規劃看看...我們大概兩個月時間好不好?兩個月,那之前前面那一題我們對於書中的晶片管制的法規修改,什麼時候可以做?欸,那個我還是講,我們還是要跟國安單位討論一下那如果本席提案你會不會支持?立法院提案你會不會支持?"},{"start":751.841,"end":768.687,"text":"基本上我們只能尊重啊尊重好那就這樣主席站起來了我相信主席也不會反對那我們就希望書中的晶片管制我們的貿易法第27條27條之二趕快的著手修改我們本院會提案謝謝謝謝鍾嘉斌委員謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}