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請組密報告好 我們現在開會 請組密報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開會進行報告事項 請宣讀上次會議事錄立法院第11屆第4會期經紀委員會第8次全體委員會議事錄"},{"start":1783.966,"end":1809.882,"text":"時間114年10月9日星期三九十二分至十二十三十分114年10月30日星期四九十一分至十十二分地點紅樓101會議室主席委員邱以營等14人 列席委員洪孟凱等21人 列席人員114年10月9日星期三經濟部部長龔明新等114年10月30日星期四經濟部常務次長賴建信等主席陳昭景委員廷飛114年10月9日星期三 報告事項"},{"start":1810.543,"end":1816.638,"text":"宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定討論事項依審查依行政行情審議"},{"start":1817.681,"end":1839.732,"text":"電業法第71條之一調研修正草案 討論事項合併詢答委員羅美玲說明提案要旨 經濟部部長龔明欣報告後委員邱益英等17人提出質詢 經由經濟部部長龔明欣等即席答覆登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員黃潔 張家俊 林楚英 陳超銘及蔡宇所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報"},{"start":1840.792,"end":1865.401,"text":"書面質詢和未及答覆部分型 相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會 委員你有要求期限者從其鎖定2 委員王美惠等20人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳立華等16人 委員賴銳榮等16人 委員羅美玲等19人委員賴瑞元等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳亭輝等17人 委員邱振軍等21人及委員吳佩義等16人 分別擬據電業法第71條之1條修正草案等10案2 審查"},{"start":1867.762,"end":1891.682,"text":"行政院韓經審議 委員王美惠等20人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人 委員賴月農等16人 委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧媛等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳亭飛等17人 委員邱振軍等24人及委員吳佩儀等16人 分別擬據天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正草案等11案3 審查行政院韓經審議 委員王美惠等19人 委員李坤城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人"},{"start":1893.724,"end":1915.151,"text":"委員羅美玲等19人 委員賴慧媛等21人 委員黃潔等22人委員陳廷飛等17人 委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據自來水法第97條之一條文修正查案等9案二 委員賴瑞榮等16人擬據自來水法第三條第16條之一及第97條之一條文修正查案決議審查結束114年10月30日繼續審查114年10月30日星期四討論事項 一繼續審查行政案件審議"},{"start":1924.213,"end":1952.572,"text":"電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案及本院委員王美惠等20人 委員李昆城等18人 委員吳麗華等16人委員賴銳榮等16人 委員羅美玲等19人委員賴慧妍等21人 委員黃潔等22人 委員陳婷菲等17人委員邱振軍等21人 委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據電業法第71條之一 條文修正草案等11案決議一 第71條之一 條文照行政院提案通過二 通過附帶決議項二 繼續審查行政院行政院審議天然氣法"},{"start":1953.292,"end":1975.355,"text":"天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案及本院委員王美惠等20人委員李坤城等18人委員吳立華等16人委員賴瑞隆等16人委員羅美玲等19人委員賴慧玲等21人委員黃潔等22人委員陳廷飛等17人委員邱振軍等24人委員吳佩儀等16人分別擬據天然氣事業法第55條之一條文修正查案等10案"},{"start":1976.021,"end":2003.738,"text":"等十一案 決議第55條之一 條文照行政提案通過 三 繼續審查行政行政審議 自來水法第97條之一 條文修正草案 及本院委員王美惠等十九人 委員李昆城等十八人 委員吳立華等十六人 委員羅美玲等十九人 委員賴慧妍等二十一人 委員黃婕等二十二人 委員陳廷輝等十七人 委員吳佩儀等十六人 分別擬據自來水法第97條之一 條文修正草案 及委員賴瑞榮等十六人擬據自來水法第三條 第16條之一 及第97"},{"start":2005.039,"end":2024.082,"text":"97條之一條文修正討論等10案決議一 第三條條文不予通過 維持現行條文二 增訂第16條之一條文不予增訂三 第97條之一條文造行政案提案通過四 討論事項所列第一至第三案均審查完畢 分別並按理據審查報告"},{"start":2024.782,"end":2046.327,"text":"提報院會討論均不需交由黨團協商並推請陳昭紀委員停飛於院會討論時做補充說明主席宣告審查通過之條文相關法制用以授權主席及議事人員整理、散會宣讀完畢好 那請問各位委員針對於剛剛議事處所宣讀的議事錄請問有沒有有沒有問題"},{"start":2051.274,"end":2054.562,"text":"好 那麼我們意思錄確認那我們現在進行討論討論事項請一併宣讀"},{"start":2062.03,"end":2082.118,"text":"1審查本院委員楊瓊英等21人擬據公司法第235條之一條文修正草案2本院委員徐以貞等17人委員楊瓊英等17人委員謝一鳳等16人委員林黛嬅等16人委員張家俊等18人及委員何新淳等16人分別擬據公司法第387條條文修正草案等6案"},{"start":2084.079,"end":2107.294,"text":"3.委員吳秉瑞等21人拟據公司法第222條條文修正查案4.本院委員鄭振銓等16人拟據公司法第160條條文修正查案委員黃建斌等17人拟據公司法第235條之1條文修正查案委員郭國倫等16人拟據公司法第165條條文修正查案"},{"start":2108.717,"end":2135.574,"text":"委員 紐許庭等17人 拟據公司法第387條之一及第449條條文修正草案2 審查本院委員 紐許庭等16人 拟據商業登記法第9條之一及第37條條文修正草案3 審查本院委員賴若榮等17人委員蔡其章等19人及委員鍾嘉斌等20人分別拟據能源管理法部分條文修正草案等3案"},{"start":2137.532,"end":2151.18,"text":"2.本院委員楊瓊瑩等21人拟據《能源管理法》第7條條文修正草案3.本院委員邱瑩穎等11人拟據《能源管理法》增訂第19條12及第27條11條文修正草案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2158.612,"end":2183.38,"text":"好 那麼我們首先要介紹在場的委員以及列席的官員在場的委員有我們徐宇貞委員 邱益穎委員鄭振淺委員 謝謝現場有我們的經濟部長龔部長龔明星龔部長以及商業署蘇文林署署長我們能源署李君理署長"},{"start":2184.5,"end":2207.071,"text":"接下来我们台联公司王耀廷王总经理接下来中油公司方董事长方正仁方董事长以及我们司法院民政厅毛法官毛彦成法官谢谢我们的金管会政企局的主任秘书黄总好主任秘书以及劳动部"},{"start":2209.212,"end":2222.58,"text":"勞動條件以及就業平等司副市長王金榮副市長還有我們行政院主計處綜合統計處的檢熱視察林雅文林視察以及財政部負稅署專門委員林寶全謝謝"},{"start":2226.182,"end":2246.331,"text":"內政部消防署預防調查組專門委員郭懷莊郭專門委員交通部公共運輸及監理師檢任記證王基洲王記證以及環境部大氣環境師專門委員謝仁碩謝謝以及法務部參事廖江憲謝謝"},{"start":2250.256,"end":2274.105,"text":"好 接下來我們本日的議程所列的討論事項有三案分別是公司法部分條文修正草案商業登記法第九條之一及第37條修正草案及能源管理法部分條文修正草案那本日我們僅進行詢答好 我們現在請提案委員來做說明"},{"start":2276.297,"end":2282.07,"text":"哪一位 來 曾政城委員那我們請徐宇甄委員請做準備 謝謝"},{"start":2288.944,"end":2317.304,"text":"主席各位同仁今天我本席提出公司法第160條修正草案是要解決食物上一顆常年埋在台灣家族企業傳承路上的餵爆彈股份共有時股東權利如何行使的問題第一現行法規的制度陷阱第160條已成為僵局條款在現行制度下股份為數人共有時理論上必須全體共有人一致同意"},{"start":2317.944,"end":2342.95,"text":"才能出席股東會行使表決權這就產生了一個巨大的制度陷阱法律只規定了應推定一人卻沒有規定當共有人無法推定一人時該怎麼辦只要其中一個共有人不同意公司股東會就無法召開董事改選決算報告通過無法進行決議只保護了既得利益者 卻限"},{"start":2343.69,"end":2359.585,"text":"企業於違法跟停擺的狀態其他多數共有人的股權被漠視少數霸凌多數第二法體系失衡民法土地法已經先行公司法嚴重落後台灣的法律體系對於"},{"start":2360.586,"end":2382.202,"text":"共有物管理的原則早已從全體同意走向多數決本法參酌土地法第34條之一以及民法第820條的多數決原則改採共有人人數過半且應有部分過半即可推定一人代理行使股東權利這樣既能尊重多數意見也可避免"},{"start":2382.662,"end":2410.611,"text":"依然否決的一個惡性僵局同時也保留彈性允許共友人書面通知公司保留部分權利可扣除其產生共有關係的背後比例以確保個別權益不受侵害為避免多數決產生權利濫用疑慮若有共友人權益受到實質損害仍得向法院申請救濟由法院進行個案審酌保障權益"},{"start":2411.471,"end":2439.688,"text":"令無法提定代理人時得依多數決直接召集股東會並行使表決權確保公司治理不因內部爭議而中斷本修法是在公司治理效率與共有人權益之間找到最佳的一個平衡點懇請各位委員同仁支持讓台灣的企業能有一步真正符合現實需求與時俱進的公司法以上 謝謝"},{"start":2441.124,"end":2446.266,"text":"好 我們謝謝接下來我們請徐政委員請做提案說明"},{"start":2453.466,"end":2480.396,"text":"主席 各位同仁大家早本期今天所提出的是公司法第387條的修正草案目的很單純就是希望讓法理法律回到常理讓實務能被看見現行台灣規定公司登記的代理人僅限會計師律師但記帳是法第13條早已明文記帳是得受委任辦理營業變更註銷停付業及其他登記事項"},{"start":2481.216,"end":2508.997,"text":"兩法不一致讓想創業的民眾充滿繞路跟徒增成本的荒謬台灣九成以上的中小企業創業初期其實最倚重的專業夥伴大部分都是記帳師他們熟悉設立變更稅務跟帳務的流程是協助企業從零到一的第一線是因為公司法的限制明明全案都是由記帳室承辦但是呢到最後送件仍要見名會計師或律師"},{"start":2509.717,"end":2514.459,"text":"增加費用拉長時程也讓責任鏈不清楚制度與現實長期的脫節不僅壓縮計帳室依法執業的空間亦浪費社會資源讓創業者更是不必要的負擔白岸修正在第三項甄列計帳室明定前兩項是申請的"},{"start":2528.525,"end":2555.647,"text":"代理人以會計師 律師 記章師為線這不是擴權 而是法制的統一不是降低門檻 而是尊重專業的分工記章師早就具有國家考試跟專業的監督依法負責 可受集合承辦登記事務的能力與責任早有制度保障讓能者依法為之 可提升效率 降低成本 明確責任亦能夠強化主管機關的追蹤與管理"},{"start":2556.047,"end":2574.117,"text":"修法後 會計師與律師的專業價值不會被取代在查核 見證 訴訟等領域仍有其不可替代的角色我們只是讓長年在座的人能夠名正言順把流程的斷點補上把責任的揮曲釐清這對創業者來說是利多對行政體系來說是減壓對產業環境來說是加速器法律本來就應當隨著社會脈動而進步"},{"start":2583.323,"end":2596.402,"text":"當現實走到面前法條就不該成為絆腳石而這次的修正即使法制統一的必要也是一種務實的選擇它不會改變登記制度的監督強度反而會讓制度更加透明化跟合理化"},{"start":2597.358,"end":2617.925,"text":"所以為了讓社會運作更為順暢即將是長年默默支持台灣的中小企業他們是最了解企業細節經營的一群人今天我們只希望透過這項修正讓法律能夠回歸常理讓專業能夠各司其職也能讓創業者少一些不必要的障礙 謝謝"},{"start":2620.168,"end":2630.853,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來呢 謝謝我們的提案委員那接下來我們請經濟部長 公民新部長就委員提案合併來做報告 請"},{"start":2640.709,"end":2656.618,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那今天非常很感謝的貴人會邀集的相關的單位共同討論公司法3月登記法以及能源管理法修正草案的相關的提案那本人非常榮幸有這個機會"},{"start":2657.745,"end":2673.082,"text":"可以跟各位委員會提出報告進行各位委員不吝指教首先是在公司法的部分公司法是規範全國公司治理的法律與企業經營運作還有股東的權利息息相關"},{"start":2674.042,"end":2702.882,"text":"那各法條的修正呢我們認為應該要審慎的處理那有關於委員所提的公司法修正查案呢本部的評估意見呢依序說明如下那第一個有關於是160條素人共有的股份的時候那共有人如何推定一人行使股東權利那最高法院的判決呢向來認定需要回歸民法以全體共有人同意來推派"},{"start":2703.763,"end":2710.491,"text":"那委員所提的是 希望改成多數決的方式來進行那本部也曾"},{"start":2711.739,"end":2736.126,"text":"徵詢了各單位的意見那司法院仍然認為說應該還是要用民法共有的規定來辦理那我想這個也是我們尊重這個這個司法院的看法那第二是有關於165條股東常會及臨時會過戶的避鎖期的期間呢那主要這個避鎖期主要的目的是為了確保可以出席股東會的股東"},{"start":2736.986,"end":2759.96,"text":"那如果没有去区分公开发行公司还有非公发公司的闭锁期的时间的缩短的话那我们也跟这些股物单位的实务的意见洽询以后那尤其是针对公发公司的股物作业事实上它非常的繁复可能会时间缩短的话可能会造成实质上执行上的一些困难"},{"start":2761.943,"end":2786.752,"text":"第三是有关于222条的部分监察人应该忠实的执行职务不得兼任公司的董事经理人还有其他的这个职员那确保他的独立性那监察人如果违法来兼任的话基本上他已经违反这个强制的规定这个法律效果当然是致死是无效的所以并不需要"},{"start":2788.133,"end":2807.254,"text":"新增订这个修正的期间或者是修正期间不改的话要罚还那第四项是有关于235条之一的部分上市常规呢现在已经按照这个证券交易法的规定第14条规定在章程里面也要明定了"},{"start":2808.095,"end":2831.05,"text":"基层员工调整薪资或分派酬劳的相关规定那至于规范这个非公发公司的公司法那委员的提案是希望公司章程也要明定这个员工酬劳加薪的比例不得低于同业的平均也好或者是消费者物价指数年增率拟定的这个条幅等等的一些情况那本部呢"},{"start":2831.85,"end":2847.18,"text":"也针对这个议题邀请了这个产业团体也好专家学者还有各部会来研商那认为实务上操作上可能是有一些困难比如说同业加薪的平均因为它变成一个浮动动态的很难去定义"},{"start":2848.101,"end":2876.58,"text":"那我们也希望就是考量到公司规模这个大小的不一产业需求也不一样是不是给予公司有一些弹性那至于上市上柜这些比较大型的公司在这个政交法里面已经有所规范了那第五点是有关于第387条那依现在的规定公司的登记的申请可由负责人轻松或者是律师会计师来代理登记那"},{"start":2878.615,"end":2906.146,"text":"记账是跟这个报税的代理人是可以协助公司来代送件那清查包括日本美国跟新加坡他们国家来讲的话征集代理人的资格大部分都还是限制于专业职业的人员那他们的这些专业或考试科目都有包含这个公司法或者是商法也有应对的这些考训的相关科目跟门槛"},{"start":2907.526,"end":2927.891,"text":"那委员提案说可以增订这个记账室为登记代理人那我们认为就是说是不是先来评估扩大这些记账室它可能的考试范围然后纳入将来的这个科目的应考范围里面"},{"start":2928.422,"end":2951.953,"text":"然後比較專業性比較提升以後提升了相關的學士跟專業能力以後來實施可能是比較妥當的那第六項是有關於387條11還有第449條那委員希望要求就是說在公司登記前要參加這個勞動權益的講習那我們這個認為是利益良善"},{"start":2953.294,"end":2981.309,"text":"但是不过呢为了友善整个经商的这个环境也希望这个公司登记可以便捷化那一站式的可以线上申请的政策那是不是就是说对于我们这边不要把这个参加劳动讲习当作是一个钱的一个条件那我们再来就是说有一个告知的义务让这些登记人他们可以参加这个讲习作业"},{"start":2982.898,"end":2999.389,"text":"那第二大项是有关于这个商业登记的部分那这个就是有关于第九条之一还有二三十七条一样的这个也是跟刚刚第六项讲的就是说登记前的劳动权益奖系那我们的意见也是一样"},{"start":3000.47,"end":3018.048,"text":"那第三大项是有关于能源管理法的部分那能源管理法是规范我国能源需求面的这个节约能源还有能源效率的管理的主要法律那本市的委员提案的拟据的这个能源管理法的修正草案总共大概有五案"},{"start":3018.889,"end":3031.624,"text":"那考量到這個牽涉到的這個範圍比較大針對各位委員提案的情形呢那我們也按照這個調適提出的書面報告那下面我就綜合簡要的來說明"},{"start":3033.154,"end":3061.587,"text":"那本次五项的这个提案的版本大概有三项是针对特定的议题提出来的包括就是早晚杨秋莹委员提到的能源管理事业达到一定规模以上的应该要设置能源储存能刮糊能的这个设备那秋莹委员提案是不得故意散播影响国家能源供应国家能源基础设施的不实谣言或者是假讯息那杨秋莹委员提案"},{"start":3062.327,"end":3088.267,"text":"就是火力发电还有能源用户的设置气垫工程者应该申报机组还有排放的资料等等此外另外还有蔡经商委员还有钟嘉斌委员提案增设能源管理事业应该要公开能源的销售统计还有涉及到整体能源的相关的规定鉴于本部研理的版本已经完成预告现在也在收集一些"},{"start":3088.787,"end":3112.123,"text":"针对各外界的这个建议进行检视并且整体考量跟电影法还有再生年龄发展条例的法案相关法例可以有一致性那是不是我们建议等到行政部门的修正法案的版本送大院以后再并案审查讨论以上报告谢谢"},{"start":3116.221,"end":3132.698,"text":"好 謝謝部長就我們今天委員提案有三個法來做說明好 那麼有關本次會議各部會所提的書面報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報本日議程所列的討論事項合併詢答"},{"start":3135.32,"end":3157.908,"text":"分开处理那委员咨询前我们依照惯例主席才做以下的宣告每位委员发言的时间本委员会本委员六分钟必要时延长一分钟非本委员会四分钟那上午十点半这个截止发言登记那首先我们请登记第一位的张家俊委员请做发言"},{"start":3169.212,"end":3173.356,"text":"謝謝主席我想請這個拱部長我們請拱部長部長早安那首先呢想請問部長距離立法院三讀通過核管法已經過了多久了您記得嗎"},{"start":3193.338,"end":3211.248,"text":"從今年5月15開始已經過了快要半年了那請問現在核電廠研議經濟部這邊有掌握到任何的進度嗎原則上就是我們說有兩個必須跟三個原則那個你不要重複了那個已經在"},{"start":3213.942,"end":3242.443,"text":"核管法的這個辦法裡面都已經有規定了我現在是問你進度對對對那所以就是說台電公司他按照這個辦法他先提的這個現狀的評估報告現狀的評估報告會送到經濟部來什麼時候已經送來了已經送來了所以可以告訴我們一下現在的評估報告的內容嗎評估報告他大致上就是說看看這一個現在的這個機組大致上的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":3243.652,"end":3262.808,"text":"那是怎麼樣沒有 我們現在還在審查當中所以是已經有評估報告了已經有評估報告 但是我們還在但是你沒有辦法告訴我們評估報告的內容對 因為我們還在針對評估報告內容裡面來確認是不是這樣子所以你是不相信他的評估報告"},{"start":3263.308,"end":3279.65,"text":"我們當然還要check啊那還有行政的流程啊所以你現在在check那多久才可以確認說他的評估報告是詳實的因為我知道評估報告已經要送到經濟部來但是還沒簽到我這邊來所以你也還沒看到對 還在行政裡面還沒有看到但上週呢 這個"},{"start":3281.792,"end":3293.32,"text":"總經理啊就是王總經理在本委員會有回應有關於核能研議的時候他就有提到說目標是在2029年可以重啟核三那部長您支持嗎還是我們這個評估報告完以後如果確認以後他們就會啟動所以你意思是說這個上個禮拜的發言是沒有經過確認的是嗎"},{"start":3307.429,"end":3317.36,"text":"上個禮拜的王總經理的發言說2029是目標可以重啟核三然後有信心可以在2029年甚至進度超前"},{"start":3318.437,"end":3347.638,"text":"跟委员报告您后面那几句我没有说这个是我说的这个是我说的我希望你们把这个当目标一定要进度超前当时赖委员在问整个的时程我是说这个都充满了高度的不确定性那他硬要我给一个日期就是说这些不确定性都当作是可以确定的可以告诉我们委员会说大概是哪些是重启核三或重启核能的不确定性吗"},{"start":3348.038,"end":3368.583,"text":"那不確定性當然就是我們在做過那個再運轉計畫就是接下來的依法規做再運轉計畫及自主安全檢查的部分那檢查的結果到底有多少設備所以你們不是已經檢查完了嗎不是不是不是所以這個你剛才部長講的說你們已經有重新盤點那是現況現況而已現況現況現況"},{"start":3372.064,"end":3387.802,"text":"現況完還要做真正的核子反應爐裡面的每一個組件還有它的狀況它是不是老化是不是已經還能夠再撐20年我們現在就是希望說這一些進度要加快要加快要能夠"},{"start":3389.063,"end":3414.081,"text":"盡快的來重啟核能 為什麼呢那前幾天呢應該是說我們的台電董事長曾文森在9月的時候他也說過10月初就會有這個現況盤點然後會對外說明到目前為止也還沒有現況說明你看連簽到部長桌上都還沒有這進度是不是有點慢啊"},{"start":3414.961,"end":3443.849,"text":"跟委員報告所有的工作都是同時在進行絕對不會說因為一個牽絆然後就停下來那為什麼還沒有辦法對他說明10月初現在已經11月了11月初了現在其實本席給你一個機會可不可以告訴我們說這三座核電廠目前盤點的結果情形如何有哪幾座廠有哪幾座反應爐評估後是可以到下一個階段的"},{"start":3444.583,"end":3453.838,"text":"目前我們台電只是把三座核電廠目前的現況作為初步的是不是核三最有可能研議呢"},{"start":3456.18,"end":3465.243,"text":"還是核二也有機會呢這個部分要經過經濟部再看一下就是你現在不是已經盤點過了嗎那是台電的觀點而已那台電的觀點我現在就問你啊你是台電總經理啊台電的觀點是什麼你覺得是核三比較有機會還是核二比較有機會"},{"start":3474.765,"end":3479.83,"text":"我想這句話我先不要回答 避免說一些爭議啦 我想還是等你在怕什麼 這是一個國家的方向為什麼本席會這麼關心核電研議的進度因為不只是用電穩定 更是為了台灣未來接軌國際產業著想根據國際能源署預估"},{"start":3496.187,"end":3518.473,"text":"未來五年全球的資料中心用電量會增加一倍以上甚至說如果專為AI算力設計的資料中心用電量會多出整整四倍那如果我們台灣沒有重啟核電我們哪裡來的電力資源那我們怎麼樣跟上國際的角度呢"},{"start":3519.293,"end":3528.592,"text":"這一點這是部長要擔心的啊所以我現在才問說既然你都可以喊出2029了那你有沒有信心可以再超前呢"},{"start":3529.526,"end":3554.515,"text":"台電在對於用電的需求方面絕對都是超前在規劃跟部署所以你的超前規劃跟部署是什麼請問包括所有用電的需求量的評估以及這麼多的用電需求量在成長之後我們的電廠是不是要再增加新建那你目前的評估是什麼部長你知道他的評估嗎"},{"start":3556.553,"end":3573.144,"text":"你知道 你幫他回答他的計畫是什麼每年能源組員會滾動式檢討需求面跟供給面所以我們要確保在2032年之前至少所有的這個電力需求那你們的目標是怎樣在繼續不斷地燒煤炭 燒天然氣嗎"},{"start":3575.08,"end":3586.632,"text":"因為就像委員講的即便核能重啟都順利的情況下那也是三年四年以後所以我們這段時間我們要確保是三年還是四年就差一段時間我們確保所以本席在這裡是希望說至少部長"},{"start":3593.72,"end":3605.843,"text":"跟總經理你們要有一個目標嘛你們要有一個明確的目標然後每一階段的這些時程我們把它訂定出來我們大家共同來期待不是說你都不要說我們這麼沒機會給你感動這樣就不對啊這是我們共同的目標不是好像說不是好像說我們要給你們找麻煩一樣是說"},{"start":3615.865,"end":3639.888,"text":"你把目標定定起來你有什麼困難是大家要一起來幫你們克服而不是說我現在沒有辦法告訴你我的目標否則會惹麻煩你覺得這種態度是正確的嗎我們在每一個就會有check point如果過的話那你的check point你可以告訴我們現在就告訴你給你們一個機會好好的對全國人民說明一下我們現在重啟核能的進程是什麼"},{"start":3641.908,"end":3660.9,"text":"現況是什麼現況就是他們有送過來的我們現在正在所以啊所以現況是一定有內容的但是您也還沒有看到然後總經理說他不能說對那我們儘快儘快看那個內容可不可以confirm總經理你台電的立場你簡單說一下就好了"},{"start":3662.112,"end":3679.594,"text":"因为台电跟经济部对外的说明立场必须是一致的不能是不一致所以我们必须要内部跟经济部讨论完之后确定了我们才对外说明那我之前也有问过说那核二厂的干式储存厂的进度呢"},{"start":3680.888,"end":3701.907,"text":"目前已经在施工中就是核二干式储存厂室外的干式储存厂正在施工中那什么时候可以完工呢明年明年初就会完工完工之后还要做测试我知道安全评估嘛那这个跟严疫与否的决定会不会有所影响呢"},{"start":3702.247,"end":3726.355,"text":"核二厂绝对有影响因为核二厂燃料素还在反应炉里面我们必须要等室外干除做好然后把室外干除用过的核废料的原子素放回到室外干除之后我们才能够人进去做检查"},{"start":3727.356,"end":3750.896,"text":"會稍後一點我現在就是最後呼籲一下部長就是說我們不能夠只講說台灣要成為AI島卻沒有把背後的這些能源跟我們所有的電力的資源說清楚這等於是等於是你可以畫這個但你後面支援不上那沒有意思嘛好不好加油加油謝謝"},{"start":3755.782,"end":3772.817,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請邱映媛委員請做詢談好 謝謝主席我請一下部長我們再請龔部長"},{"start":3780.106,"end":3808.726,"text":"邱委員早部長好部長我想我們今天要審查這個公司法跟這個能源管理法是的那本席就能源管理法提出了一個修正的版本是增訂第19條之二是本席的內容是明定任何人不得故意散播影響國家能源供應或能源基礎設施的不實謠言以及增訂第27條之一對於違反者若造成社會秩序危害或引發公眾恐慌"},{"start":3809.326,"end":3823.579,"text":"出於新台幣10萬以上60萬以下的罰款這個部長我想您大概也非常清楚這幾年其實台灣受到境外的這一些認知作戰的影響是非常的巨大包括"},{"start":3824.676,"end":3852.847,"text":"其實在今年的這個興達電廠的火災之後呢就有媒體就寫說不排除分區限電然後前一陣子大家一直在講說這個烏山頭水庫的太陽能板是不是有毒是不是用清潔劑去洗太陽能板那甚至昨天前天在這個社群媒體的平台上面還有人說嘉義東石外海有這麼多漂流的光電板"},{"start":3853.668,"end":3857.043,"text":"漂浮的光電板民進黨是怎麼做事的"},{"start":3858.762,"end":3887.521,"text":"這個東石外海的這個不是光電板是磕碰但是類似這樣的一些假訊息一直不斷的來做干擾部長您到底怎麼看本席的這個提案你知不支持雖然你剛剛講說這個是不是要等你們所有的這個行政院版的版本出來那我覺得對於假訊息對於故意散播謠言這一件事情"},{"start":3888.861,"end":3913.526,"text":"還需要等嗎還要再等你們的版本出來嗎報委員 這方向上當然我們是樂觀其成是支持但是現在因為相關有關於這個謠言主要還是已經有這個社會秩序維護法了那怎麼樣這邊跟社會秩序服務法看怎麼樣內容上有一些協調或者是執行上要怎麼去處理可能我們要再思考一下"},{"start":3915.197,"end":3939.769,"text":"所以你還是要等社會秩序維護法部長我請教一下你們有沒有去做過一些調查統計關於這種來自境外IP的組織操作的這些跟能源相關的議題有沒有去做過調查有沒有去做過統計然後這樣的供給的頻率跟次數影響的程度你們有沒有去做過調查跟統計"},{"start":3940.769,"end":3959.272,"text":"沒有詳細但是有感覺到是越來越你如果沒有做過統計當然你就會覺得我就等社委法我就等什麼法如果你有去做過統計的話你會知道越來越頻繁就感受得到這樣的這個境外的攻擊對台灣的整體能源政策來講其實是"},{"start":3960.543,"end":3985.572,"text":"非常嚴重的境外的攻擊不只是在政治面上面他在國家的很多的施政上面其實都會造成巨大的影響所以我想請您回去好好想一下如果說這一件事情你們認為這些境外的攻擊是嚴重的是不是能夠考慮把本席的這個提案納入在我們明天的這個審查討論裡頭這個是第一點第二點"},{"start":3990.536,"end":4011.706,"text":"關於這個境外中國電商落地納管部長我要請教一下你所謂的落地納管是什麼意思落地納什麼管哪一個法來管理管理他的哪一些部分比如說現在我們知道這個淘寶"},{"start":4013.715,"end":4042.739,"text":"淘寶他其實我們都知道他是中資可是他在台灣的落地他在台灣的設立是用港資 淘寶公司台灣的分公司那港資的台灣分公司在台灣他具不具備有法人的身份歐洲 日本 韓國都早就已經要求跨境的電商要設立法人可是台灣沒有你要求他落地納管"},{"start":4043.769,"end":4069.45,"text":"要管理他什麼要用什麼法去管理他他要遵循你哪一個法如果說這樣的一個跨境電商你現在陸委會也講啊我們的中資管理辦法裡頭沒有開放電商啊可是大家都知道淘寶就是中資啊你可以告訴我你要怎麼管嗎報委員基本上我們現在的態度還是不會讓"},{"start":4070.683,"end":4086.84,"text":"淘寶來台灣經營電商那現在這個香港商你這個不是很鄉怨嗎不要讓淘寶來台灣經營電商可是淘寶就在台灣啊沒有 他只能經營有一些船艙上的傳送而已這個是廣告小船的傳送網路上到處都有啊"},{"start":4087.521,"end":4115.963,"text":"然後他不能透過媒體來做廣告是不是他只是不能透過媒體做廣告他現在淘寶需要透過什麼媒體做廣告大家都知道淘寶他還需要做什麼廣告他繞了一個彎用港資成立台灣的分公司那你要落地納管你要管他什麼我就簡單問你這一句話嘛你要用哪一個法來管他我簡單問你嘛這一家台灣的分公司有沒有繳稅他的營業額他有沒有繳稅他幾乎沒有營業額"},{"start":4118.317,"end":4142.535,"text":"他只是一個推波廣就是這個發放小船單啊或等等一些情況你說他幾乎沒有營業這跟我們社會的認知差別太大了吧那他沒有營業你為什麼要納管他你為什麼要叫他落地納管你要管他什麼我剛一直問你這一句話嘛你一直要納管你要管他什麼然後你現在告訴我他沒有營業那他沒有營業你還要管他什麼你叫他直接公司收起來"},{"start":4143.619,"end":4167.831,"text":"各位原報告香港淘寶在這邊我們只有核准他廣告傳單的分送那現在大家在上那個淘寶他其實並沒有落地在我們台灣成立淘寶的購物網他大概都是用那個大陸的那個淘寶電商那這個部分目前納管的話就是說如果你沒有在台灣落地我們就不讓你可以經營那也是用這樣那這個部分因為涉及到跨部會可能我們還跟"},{"start":4168.651,"end":4191.643,"text":"蘇衛部那邊一起來討論一下怎麼去管理這個跨境電商這種沒有落地而違法經營的問題其實這個問題已經很久了淘寶這件事情還不只淘寶什麼拼多多各式各樣的這些跨境電商他現在就是鑽台灣的法律漏洞那這個過去大家從中國跨境買的包裹"},{"start":4192.901,"end":4218.772,"text":"常常我們這個包裹收到的時候裡面會收到一條豬肉條會收到一個豬肉乾會收到一個豬肉香腸這個都是漏洞現在非洲住溫入侵台灣很有可能是透過這些郵包我說有可能或者是被不知名的人士在這個"},{"start":4220.765,"end":4239.901,"text":"航運的時候帶進偷帶豬肉進來台灣總之這個非洲豬瘟已經在台灣產生已經在台灣出現現在我們要亡羊補牢要來管理這一些中國跨境郵包的時候這個郵包的數量最多我想應該就是淘寶嘛"},{"start":4240.785,"end":4254.938,"text":"那淘寶大家都知道他是跨境電商都知道他是中國是中國的阿里巴巴集團在管理管控那你們現在一直跟我說要落地納管我們沒有要讓他落地因為我們不想希望他在這邊合法經營"},{"start":4261.872,"end":4284.258,"text":"部長我們要認真務實的去處理這個事情啊你不讓他在這裡落地合法經營他透過港資成立台灣的分公司那你現在又說台灣的分公司沒有在經營他是直接到網站上面去買那就沒有什麼落地納管的問題啊你管不了他嗎因為你都講了他沒有在台灣營業嘛他沒有在台灣經營嘛"},{"start":4286.118,"end":4300.744,"text":"你自己的立場 政府自己的立場都踩得這麼不穩了你還替他說話 你說他沒有在台灣經營這個我聽不下去嘛 然後政府又告訴行政院長要跟我們說要落地納管他不能在台灣這個有這個前台的這個"},{"start":4304.058,"end":4328.853,"text":"他現在不需要在台灣有前台的經營嘛直接網站連結到中國就上去了嘛直接就在中國的網站上就買了嘛那你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛我現在一直要問的就是說你要怎麼管理這件事情嘛所以這個為什麼要跨部會就是這樣因為就經濟部來講他只有讓中資能不能落地這件事情而已事實上基本上電商的管理是數位發展部在管的"},{"start":4331.514,"end":4350.842,"text":"中資不能落地或者是該怎麼落地能不能落地這件事情的確討論很久中資拐了一個彎變成其他的不知名的資不管是港資什麼新加坡資什麼資他實際的後台還是在中國這件事情你們也要正視"},{"start":4353.36,"end":4381.238,"text":"這件事情我們不能相怨不能蒙著頭說他沒有在台灣實際經營實際營業我們不能蒙著頭去處理這個事情否則你後面你很難管我知道 他如果違規的話我們就會把他取消資格那你又說他沒有在台灣營業啊所以他怎麼違規所以我們現在就是因為你的講法是前後矛盾的嘛部長我不要再問你了我再問下去喔會很難看的啦但是你自己立場要站好齋啦我們不會讓他營業"},{"start":4384.827,"end":4405.516,"text":"我的建議是說不是你要不要讓他營業這件事情而是跨境電商包括有中資成分的這些跨境電商拐了一個彎進來轉了一個彎進來實際後頭控制還是在中國我們政府應該要怎麼面對這個是源頭的管理好不好 部長"},{"start":4413.174,"end":4426.145,"text":"谢谢 接下来我们请郑正前委员请做寻讨谢谢主席 我想请一下工部长我们再请经济部工部长"},{"start":4431.957,"end":4452.44,"text":"政委好部長好我想請教一下因為之前的經濟部長郭志輝他之前在113年7月30號有先預告修正能源管理法部分條文結果已經一年多了到現在都還沒有送來立法院請問一下部長情況到底是為什麼然後現在進度到哪裡"},{"start":4454.001,"end":4474.609,"text":"報委事實上我們已經有送到行政院了那行政院他還在做一些條文的一些檢視因為他要配合整個在政人員法案條例還有電閱法所以現在行政院嘛對不對有沒有預計什麼時候會送到立法院來他要拖多久"},{"start":4475.646,"end":4492.248,"text":"不會 應該最晚大概一兩個月內但行政院的報告就是事實上行政院已經有討論過幾次會議那當然我不能幫行政院決定時間但是我相信很快大概我在想最晚大概兩個月內應該就會送出來"},{"start":4492.648,"end":4516.09,"text":"那也就更快 因為我們在討論中 我們沒有辦法幫行政局好 理解那我想請教一下 因為當時候在這個預告修正的部分的時候我覺得裡面有三個部分 其實是比較新的一個概念第一個部分是需求面節約能源管理從原本的定位朝向需求面的一個節約能源管理這部分那這個部分的時候 部長是支持的嘛 對不對還是"},{"start":4517.475,"end":4539.807,"text":"部長各位請說 支持嘛 OK好那另外一個部分就是說因為當時的部分他也表示要把再生能源納入規範這個部分也是支持的對不對 是的OK好那第三個部分的時候就是說當時的預告修正版本的時候有提到說要公開能源銷售相關的資料"},{"start":4542.211,"end":4567.098,"text":"這也是支持的所以這三個部分都有送到行政院板裡頭對不對ok好理解那這個部分我們就期待那希望說真的這個能源管理法部分我們是能夠盡快把它完善那對台灣接下來的一個能源管理部分會有更好的一個注意那另外一個部分我想今天因為今天本席就有提到一個公司把第160條的修正案我想請教一下部長"},{"start":4570.036,"end":4590.553,"text":"因為資誠之前在2023年曾經發布一個全球際台灣家族企業調查報告他特別提到說全台灣有七成以上的上市上位公司都是家族企業那麼其中第一代掌管的高達54%其中有43%的企業對於接班還有股權傳承是沒有規劃的"},{"start":4595.858,"end":4610.126,"text":"部長你應該知道這個狀態因為部長對企業的了解應該也是非常深的我想請教一下在這樣的一個情況之下如果說我們現在還是用一個全體同意的方式來處理"},{"start":4612.367,"end":4639.774,"text":"共同共有的那個持股這樣的一個部分的時候我想請問一下部長你不覺得這樣子的時候我們接下來會有多少的一個企業台灣的家族企業會碰到了這樣子的一個企業僵局當中部長你可以簡單回應一下是 鮑委員這個題就像我剛剛事實上在報告的時候也就是說明那我們也跟跨部會有徵詢過意見那"},{"start":4642.447,"end":4669.479,"text":"過去最高法院的判決向來是認定要回歸民法那現在民法的規定他還是採用這個共識決的方式那司法院也認為 市部長你這邊有特別提到說透過遺產分割方式來解決嘛你知道很多家族企業第一代老闆走掉之後的時候他的遺產只要他有外面有私生子的時候這個問題一定沒有辦法短期內解決的"},{"start":4671.052,"end":4686.924,"text":"部長我想請教一下如果說要用這樣的方式來透過遺產分割的方式解決的時候曠日廢時啊部長你有沒有稍微去了解一下目前台灣的上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的公司碰到這樣子的一個情況"},{"start":4687.984,"end":4702.743,"text":"法委員是不是司法院有代表我們是不是請這個司法院有代表是不是也讓他說明一下因為法律的好我們請司法院"},{"start":4722.35,"end":4742.046,"text":"謝謝委員的推詢那這個部分我們其實今天在這個我們的書面報告裡面其實有寫到就關於這個共有股份的權利行使的這部分其實因為試設政策考量所以本院這邊是尊重主管機關以及立法院的職權也就是說其實今天如果今天條文規定的是明確的話其實"},{"start":4743.047,"end":4771.381,"text":"所以我們要修法就這部分嘛這就是我們要修法的原因那現在企業界碰到這麼多共同共有的一個持股狀態的時候然後我們要解決所以部長現在你用司法院他在說法的時候完全不是要解決問題啊你知道嗎他只尊重現在的一個法律的狀態那我們修法不就是要解決現在企業碰到的問題嗎所以我想請教部長現在上市櫃公司當中到底有多少的企業碰到這樣子的一個方式"},{"start":4772.501,"end":4801.007,"text":"一個問題沒有辦法解決你有沒有一個統計的數字如果沒有的時候喔你回去了解之後再到本辦公室來報告我再問一下部長我們公司法當中現在法條有多少條不曉得連這個都不曉得有400多條對400多條具體數字都還不曉得我告訴你那你知道裡面有多少條跟股東會有關"},{"start":4803.359,"end":4825.714,"text":"都不知道對不對我稍微統計的是大概有80條以上是跟董事會的權責有關那麼這麼多的狀態的時候如果說我們因為這樣子一個僵局的時候董事會都沒辦法召開然後股東會沒辦法召開然後董事會沒有辦法改選那這樣企業不是蕩在那邊"},{"start":4827.15,"end":4846.691,"text":"那我們經濟部這邊沒有責任要來解決這個問題嗎跟委員說明這個部分我們事實上有開過非常多次的專家會議在討論事實上對於股東權這個部分他除了管理權之外他可能還包括處分那這邊必須要去釐清因為"},{"start":4847.338,"end":4860.637,"text":"在民法上面他如果处分的话他就必须是回到是共识决但是股东权利的行使他不是只有管理所以这边的话我们跟司法院这边征询他们的意见也是这个样子"},{"start":4861.977,"end":4889.545,"text":"本席理解這個狀態因為你來本辦公室溝通過好多次那我們知道說其實他這部分包括整個權益的問題還有行為處分上面的一些相關的一個問題可是問題是如果我們idol在這個地方的時候這個問題我永遠沒辦法解決然後一個遺產的問題打個十幾年的官司所在多有如果因為這樣的狀態我們就沒有辦法去做董事會的改選去做"},{"start":4891.294,"end":4913.996,"text":"股東的一個股東會的一個召開等等相關的一個問題的時候我就對整個企業長期發展肯定是有很大的一個問題所以本席希望針對這個部分部長你可不可以好好的來解決然後我剛剛提到那幾個問題目前上市公司有多少碰到這樣子問題還沒有解決的之後到本辦公室來做一個很清楚的說明因為現在連土地法這種靜態的財產都可以用這樣子"},{"start":4916.378,"end":4937.452,"text":"多數決的一個方式來做解決為什麼我們動態的一個股東權益沒有辦法去做解決本席認為不太應該那麼在剛剛本席一開始的一個修法的一個說明當中的時候也特別提到那我最後再提到一個問題就是立法院這邊的時候有特別提到"},{"start":4938.905,"end":4952.365,"text":"能源署這邊對於陸域風機的選址管制的相關的一個規定那之前能源署是表示說沒有提供陸域風機的用地指引是因為權責單位太多對不對"},{"start":4955.049,"end":4979.506,"text":"所以你們沒有辦法提出來可是問題是這個也不是解決問題的方式因為既然能源署是管這個部分的時候那是不是應該要作為跨部會的一個協商然後提出一個用地指引不要把這個問題直接丟給環境影響評估然後當作一個我們主管單位的一個推卸責任的一個狀態可不可以"},{"start":4980.831,"end":5009.959,"text":"好 我們來跟環境部還有各單位來討論一下那大概什麼時候可以有一個結果出來年底可以嘛 年底之前今年年底是不是對 OK好那我們希望說公司法的部分我希望部長這邊能夠再去多了解一下之後再到本辦公室來做一個詳細的說明因為我覺得這個部分是很多台灣的家族企業都碰到的問題現在不解決 未來問題只會越來越多好的好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5012.932,"end":5014.958,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝曾委員 謝謝龔部長接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做巡檔"},{"start":5042.186,"end":5064.061,"text":"謝謝主席 現在公布長我們再請公布長張委員早 公布長早10月31號路透社做了一個很重要的報導 他們說台灣化石燃料發電的比例竟然高達"},{"start":5067.232,"end":5093.192,"text":"87%台灣已經成為淨零碳排的反指標他明確講的這個數據怎麼說他說今年前8個月台灣超過87%的電力供應都是來自於化石燃料這個是亞洲第八經濟體我們台灣現在是整個亞洲第八大的經濟體有史以來化石燃料占最高的一次所以創了台灣歷史的一個新高"},{"start":5094.773,"end":5123.823,"text":"他還特別講台灣化石燃料這個發電這個數額啊超過亞洲的平均水準亞洲平均水準是62我們87全球是57這意味著台灣在能源轉型啊在主要經濟體裡面人家用諷刺的字眼說我們啊脫穎而出我今天是要問你這個這對國家發展很重要這在國際上很見笑的啦丟臉了來部長我給你看一下這是古年啊"},{"start":5125.608,"end":5142.996,"text":"誒 那個科技指導那一張部長你記得嗎 你去年那個時候你在這邊打巡你那時候是國發會的主委嘛我那時候曾經引用一個那時候剛好這個聯合國企劃變遷大會啊 COP那時候第28第28"},{"start":5149.52,"end":5176.402,"text":"那時候我們的世界排名是我們的談判檢探的這個結果是全世界倒數第七那時候我還跟你要求國發會的主委 國民心說要趕快去解決這個問題對不對幾年都過了結果到了我是秘書長任內你先做國發會主委 秘書長那你在國發會秘書長的時候我就問過你說你要去解決這個問題那應該是前年吧前年結果你看"},{"start":5177.389,"end":5189.26,"text":"最近這一兩年你看我們在碳排這一塊在國際上排名都這麼糟糕怎麼辦這不是很沒有面子而且對我們整個健康整個產業甚至這個環境永續還有電價再生能源要趕快來發展因為這個"},{"start":5195.492,"end":5210.98,"text":"不是用化石的百分之十幾就是再生能源那就是因為你的再生為什麼會這麼高化石燃料為什麼這麼高就是再生能源沒有跟上來嘛我們本來今年底我們政府本來再生能源要達到多少"},{"start":5211.96,"end":5240.849,"text":"以氣代替煤炭的話那個效果是存在的減碳是有存在的可是你兩件事沒有做好嘛對不對一個就是你再生能源的速度太慢嘛你本來今年底應該到至少要20啊到目前還在13 14那邊徘徊啊這是第一個嘛第二個更重要啊你把那個18%的那個沒有排碳的核能停掉了嘛所以你當然就全世界笑你啊沒有18%啦17到18啦三個廠 核一 核二 核三嘛一個大概都是6%左右嘛"},{"start":5241.65,"end":5258.128,"text":"最重要來我給你看來我們看一下我們美式政府都說我們減碳有成其實我們是在亞洲倒數而且啊現在一個很嚴重你看沙烏地阿拉伯生產石油對不對"},{"start":5260.276,"end":5282.608,"text":"人家私有國家他排名206我們207耶連大陸都排在180來來來現在嚴重在什麼地方你看一下看下一張所以我們非核家園是不是用健康環境跟電價去堆疊出來的那個部長你看人家走下腳"},{"start":5284.959,"end":5311.846,"text":"對 我們當然就是剛剛提到的以氣換煤的話就是往健康方向空污也減少了你現在目前只有做了一個就是把煤炭少一點變成是天然氣用這個來收水我剛才說的你就是把核電用完核電第一個 核電停完之後造成的污染跟排炭第二個也很嚴重我現在來講 來 你看一下核能 你看這一張核能在今年的6月份歸零之後左邊這個火力發電就一直成長"},{"start":5313.732,"end":5342.006,"text":"然後你再生能源又被跟上來嘛所以趕快去把這兩個問題要解決好不好來 我繼續看你路透社來講的一件事情就是我接下來跟你討論的他說啊 大罷免期間啊民進黨立委都在講那個什麼我們小小多山的國家這個路透社說什麼台灣是多山而且人口稠密的島嶼不適合建造大規模的再生能源的這個發電廠所以我們再生能源到底被他折這件事情出現那麼多弊案"},{"start":5343.291,"end":5367.963,"text":"特別是光電要好好要好好去不要山跟海都是結果出現一堆彼岸來我給你看一個非常聳動而且非常重要的案子來不然你怎麼看法門北門啊有一個光電的開發案結果十幾位黑道啊赤嶺 你看那新窟赤嶺赤鳳的跑到宮廟"},{"start":5369.912,"end":5398.476,"text":"去威脅當地的居民說你要同意這個開發隔一天人家就去報案了警察官後來都傳去了很聳動的是什麼這些人裡面包括了立陽案就是台南開88槍的立陽案一個主嫌蔡金郎也在裡面你看多麼無法無天多麼無法無天"},{"start":5402.503,"end":5429.906,"text":"我今天更生氣的是什麼我從7月份開始民眾求助無門來陳情我從7月份就跟你指手支跟經濟部居民要的只有三個前面兩個跟你經濟部都有絕對的關係他說說明會不通知相關的利害人程序明明是有問題啊第二個整個光電能力開發的面積不斷在增加壓縮他們生活空間跟生活品質"},{"start":5431.823,"end":5453.313,"text":"這兩個都是經濟部能源署管的啊 對不對我從7月份喔 跟你所知到現在資料為什麼不給我居民求救無門 立法委員行政職權 要把問題弄清楚你到現在資料都不給我們現在民眾都講 你們什麼光電黑金的門審"},{"start":5455.066,"end":5476.127,"text":"你們是共患嗎這不是你們該做的事嗎保定為什麼連一個程序有問題了居民就直接問啊說明會相關的關係利害人都沒要吹然後你面積為什麼讓他擴大來我跟你來我給你所知的內容給大家看你看"},{"start":5479.039,"end":5499.025,"text":"我們請全民來看 當一個立法委員 街道陳情民眾那麼可憐 黑道都找上門了還有88槍的主嫌耶結果要的資料 這是不是都是你主管的我要把它釐清到底什麼環節出問題你為什麼到現在資料不給我"},{"start":5500.98,"end":5525.91,"text":"委員好我們來說明一下因為這是好幾個不同的案件那有的當然已經進入司法程序那剛才委員提到司法人家檢察官後來就傳了包括這個主嫌都傳去嘛是那我們現在談的是行政行政的問題啊包括剛剛講的他們陳情不都是你管的他說來你看看在哪裡來來看那個陳情來我手持的資料來你看一下你看這個第二項"},{"start":5530.134,"end":5556.107,"text":"我要你土地性質跟使用分區它的開發用途有沒有變更你當初為什麼要核准核准文件在哪裡第三個你有沒有相關紀錄對不對你當初說明會跟地方協調會你的會議紀錄一定要送到你這邊嘛對不對都出問題了你連這個東西都不拿出來給大家看是的第一項談的是什麼他們說範圍一直在擴大我說你把所有旁邊的到底沒有擴大給我"},{"start":5559.201,"end":5562.37,"text":"民眾那麼可憐 你不幫他們連立委跟你要資料"},{"start":5565.986,"end":5590.192,"text":"那個謝謝委員的關心那我知道委員長期很關心這些民眾的關心的事情那大概剛才提到資料當然剛才提到事實上有好幾個案件那有的已經進入司法程序那另外也就是說如果有發生什麼弊案事實上我們有一個打擊綠能犯罪小組我們隨時都可以提供到那個小組那回到剛才委員比較關心的資料你有送嗎"},{"start":5591.152,"end":5614,"text":"你發現你有送去那這個資料為什麼不能給司法有司法的這個程序嘛我現在跟你要的是行政的這個資料你為什麼給我是委員報告的就是我們委員在7月14有提到有關那個瑞日那麼有一些民眾抗爭的事情那事實上我們在8月15有給這個委員當時是要我們當時的組長當時的組長他相關的會議的資料那我們這個有把他16場主持的會議的資料記錄給委員"},{"start":5620.802,"end":5639.894,"text":"那另外委員還有要相關的資料剛才講到這些地址 這個我們正在整理那我們完成之後我們就會三個月到現在在整理喔是 因為委員要的很細啦你三天內可以給我嗎我特別是第一項到這個第二大項裡面的暗藏跟他們那個開會的那個過程你會記錄這三個在三天內給我"},{"start":5644.929,"end":5661.595,"text":"我們先整理因為委員當時要的資料很多那我們可以先把我們整理好的就提供給委員那陸續是不是容許我們再來整理三天內可以嗎我跟你講現在地方怎麼傳你啦現在經濟部經濟部已經形象要好了"},{"start":5663.336,"end":5691.073,"text":"順應線這樣一路會沒電 經濟沒成效現在人家電視說你怎麼樣變成光電黑金的門神了啦 共患了委員長期關心我們很重視委員的這些需要的資料那我們會全力盡力來盡速提供三天看那我們可以先提供我們已經完成的部分是不是給委員那因為這個資料蠻多的那我們陸續整理那慢慢完備之後如果是允許我們逐批的給委員那這樣子可以讓委員馬上這邊也可以同步"},{"start":5691.974,"end":5697.77,"text":"來作業你已經整理了三個月了你現在手上有的趕快給我因為我們要盤點一集最晚什麼時候會完整給我"},{"start":5698.696,"end":5722.965,"text":"我們可能要調閱資料因為委員要的資料最主要是那個現在居民最在意的你為什麼那個暗場一直在增加把他們整個包圍起來第二個明明就陳情了協調會跟說明會有狀況這個紀錄都在你手上嘛不要說經濟三高的你本身去的就要有嘛你至少把這兩個這兩個都是現成的你三天內先送到這邊來要會議資料我們可以比較早提供啦那有些地目地號那個我們要仔細盤點"},{"start":5724.445,"end":5738.895,"text":"因為我們怕給未來的不正確先把那個會議紀錄 三天內先送過來那相關的盡快 好不好然後注意一下 保定保定 你現在是經濟部長我剛才在強調經濟部長久的形象是好的地方已經 地方跟你們陳情然後這個新聞已經鬧這麼大"},{"start":5741.589,"end":5769.668,"text":"88槍的主嫌都已經檢方都調去問了只要是違法我們現在都是送那個廉政平台對嘛一條是司法嘛對不對一條你的行政體系你要去處理啊人家現在賣就是賣你啊畢竟整個綠營產業違規違法的部分還是少部分但是我們一定要把這些這個案子就很嚴重了好不好把經濟部的形象做好把人民的這個生活跟他們他們已經受到多大的影響好不好資料趕快給我好 謝謝"},{"start":5772.029,"end":5795.12,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝張綺凱委員也謝謝龔部長行政部門請一定要加油因為委員要的資料大家都理性在討論剛剛回答說地籍的部分你們還要怎麼樣這麼久的時間地籍我們本來就有地政事務所你只要要做你一個申請"},{"start":5796.8,"end":5809.285,"text":"這馬上出來為什麼會拿這個來當理由所以必須要加油好不好將委員所需要的相關資料趕快跟委員來說明清楚接下來我們請陳婷菲委員請做詢問謝謝主席我們請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":5825.18,"end":5828.083,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":5846.081,"end":5862.809,"text":"因為在整個國內斜的產業我們台南應該是佔最大宗的就是目前還有工廠在生產的否則現在大概都是用進口外銷這樣的一個所謂平台而已可是唯一"},{"start":5863.709,"end":5886.535,"text":"有在做實質一個生產製造就是我們比例最多台南所以我們現在輔誠協目前我們也擴大業業結合用我們的社會我們協跟社會做跨產業合作那我要詢問的是"},{"start":5889.922,"end":5898.517,"text":"我想我们辅诚协开始记者会然后打出了我们的品牌之后我们重要的是通路"},{"start":5899.847,"end":5927.741,"text":"通路很重要 是在我們台灣的通路是不是可以把我們所有的通路做成Q進來讓他們看到我們台南的路這個很重要那我們之前是全家福那現在可能明年是DK所以如果是這樣子的話到底我們這個通路可以擴展到什麼程度"},{"start":5929.378,"end":5954.006,"text":"有沒有去預計過我們通路現在當然有包括線上的通路也有這個實體的通路那我是不是請那個我們商業署長稍微說明一下那個委員就是浮塵鞋這邊因為在那個年初的時候因為跟刺繡那邊也有相關嘛那鞋子的部分我們在有辦一些展售會我們也主動去有邀請這些鞋業的業者也能夠一起來"},{"start":5954.656,"end":5970.655,"text":"那未来辅诚协这边我们也会跨局处之间我们再办一些展售活动通路或是线上我们都会一起把它有我必须肯定是从去年到现在我们感受到我们终于有被关心了"},{"start":5972.062,"end":5999.075,"text":"在台南說這個蝦是我們非常傳統的產業我們從小的時候我們家裡大家這樣一間家裡可能一座蝦就吃一戒火但是到現在來慢慢的好像整個需求量沒那麼高我們一直在說的我們實在是我們一箱一箱用手工的我們的品質過去我們的蝦"},{"start":6000.936,"end":6028.556,"text":"在世界各國 人家說Made in Taiwan大家避一避 可是那是多久的時間我們怎麼再重新把品牌製造出來所以很感謝我們有了輔誠鞋這樣的一個依靠那我們現在把它正式記者會公開了好 這個品牌輔誠鞋 那我們要問那沒有錯 我們各個"},{"start":6029.997,"end":6036.119,"text":"经济部所管辖的相关都有尽力在协助可是这个通路"},{"start":6037.831,"end":6062.038,"text":"雖然我們有網路我們有實體可是我們怎麼讓大家能夠更清楚瞭解富翔鴨就是過去的made in Taiwan這種的公司請一箱台灣鴨請一箱富翔鴨它可以外公營因為這代表著我們台南的品牌跟台灣的品牌我們要怎麼做"},{"start":6065.123,"end":6075.827,"text":"組長有沒有想過那個委員我們這邊可以針對這個鞋子或者俯臣鞋這邊來做一個專案的一個協助輔導那是不是讓我們再跟業者這邊來接洽"},{"start":6078.447,"end":6105.784,"text":"其实他们已经都觉得你们有在帮忙了但是我觉得我们希望的是真的让很多的产业继续扎根所以这个通路很重要有这个拼白料我们这个通路很重要然后另外就是说部长你记不记得我们上个礼拜一去到我们台南做对谈的时候我们有讲到说辅导"},{"start":6107.044,"end":6131.014,"text":"我想我們現在有一個很重要的智慧科技輔具我們怎麼從這個來延伸AI加上我們的AI因為現在失智越來越多的案例所以我們怎麼讓這個所謂的AI它原本都是穿著腳"},{"start":6132.318,"end":6159.476,"text":"李嘉在失智之前人家的研究可能他会对于他某一个颜色或是他过去的某一个样态他会特别特别记忆犹新所以我们怎么让我们这个所谓的智慧科技辅具如果我们延伸我们用AI辅导然后跟智慧科技辅具跟辅成鞋结合"},{"start":6162.861,"end":6164.851,"text":"其实这是一个很好的点是"},{"start":6165.472,"end":6191.882,"text":"对不对 对因为我们现在刚好都在推这个智慧科技辅具那如果我们可以借着这一次大家开始在讨论失智然后我们怎么用科技的一个脉络然后把我们的长者失智的长者能够保护他让他免于跑不见或是我们可以把他找回来"},{"start":6192.902,"end":6214.449,"text":"那所以我觉得鞋算是一个很重要而且也是我们可以以前都是用手环的对不对可是手环如果他拿掉了你完全就找不到但是会啊鞋子不会啊而且鞋子它有足迹走到哪里都很清楚"},{"start":6215.771,"end":6243.836,"text":"所以我觉得那一天跟你对谈之后我觉得如果我们可以把这个用AI然后导入到我们的传产那么写是一个很好的代表性刚好现在大家都在谈失智这个状态那我们要怎么来协助更多这个案例越来越多那个部长你觉得呢我觉得谢委员提醒我觉得非常棒所以"},{"start":6244.366,"end":6268.065,"text":"不仅把AI跟智慧导入之外我们可以把它形成一个专案那顺便也把那个通路也把它一并一个专案辅导就是除了科技导入之外还有怎么样通路把它设计出来那这个专案里面把它一并的把它形成我请军工中心来协助来做部长因为传统产业你要个别去找"},{"start":6268.826,"end":6291.529,"text":"每一个公司其实有它的困难度你可以先找工会就像你这个我们这个计划它是以台南市皮革制品工会为主那么其实我刚提的这个案子你就可以请施策会因为施策会现在都有跟工会在做对接那是不是把金工中心也加进来是"},{"start":6291.969,"end":6317.615,"text":"然后让AI然后协助他们去做这个转型如果我们可以研发出来说真的这个对于我们在寻找我们万一我们的失智状态的一个案例它其实会有很大的帮助所以这个部分再拜托了谢谢然后再来就是我们现在地下管线的投资"},{"start":6318.715,"end":6344.484,"text":"部長 這個其實我之前已經講過很多次了就不論是公營民營包括天然氣管線還有我們的瓦斯管線還有所有相關的這個國營事業的管線我們到底現在有多少整合這些系統到底我們建立了沒從新設管線 既有管線 過去的管線這個部分呢"},{"start":6348.567,"end":6364.866,"text":"来我们请没关系市长你直接回答就我们新设的管线就会把那个图资就会提供给内政部的国土署那既有的管线我们也是配合就是除了巡检以外我们会配合他每次在换新的时候就会把图资可是问题是换新多久啊"},{"start":6366.071,"end":6388.723,"text":"就是说我们会把既有的也已经上传了那趁着换新的时候如果有在做维修的时候再会检查确定既有的你知道吗有些是一二十年了你怎么去寻找这些既有管些的图资我们过去就有图资那只是说我们要确定你们的都不完整我就跟你讲过嘛你连天燃气"},{"start":6389.824,"end":6415.301,"text":"天然氣 我們自來水都會去挖到天然氣管線台南就有這個案例啦表示你們的圖資是不完整的嘛應該是說早期的圖資它不是三維的嘛那我們現在會趁著這個檢修的時候慢慢慢慢把它變成立體化的然後再也會上傳市長 我就說有些一二十年了你要怎麼把它變成三維"},{"start":6416.957,"end":6437.688,"text":"没有办法所以他们现在如果有汉格的时候就挖到了因为它的深度没有明显标示所以你根本不清楚说我这个挖下去而且现在都是用浅钝的直接往前所以这个很重要之前就已经说过我们要用一个砖案"},{"start":6438.749,"end":6456.485,"text":"要求所有的管線系統不只是我們國營事業我們要帶頭我們國營事業從我們的台電自來水甚至我們電信還有天然氣瓦斯要怎麼樣變成一個專案讓他們來提供這些圖資"},{"start":6460.328,"end":6486.12,"text":"到底我们之前就已经建议过了所以表示都还没建立吗我刚刚就真委员报告我没有请大家来因为我们会配合每次试挖的时候因为第一个我们所有工程要在挖嘴的时候市长我已经说了那个太慢了你试挖那请问一二十年前的这些这些图资我就说台南就发生自来水管去撞到天然气管"},{"start":6487.04,"end":6492.677,"text":"那嚴不嚴重很嚴重啊因為他資料不清楚深度給的不對"},{"start":6494.468,"end":6520.146,"text":"那很嚴重那是剛好有發現如果沒發現他硬依照如果那個當時候在淺頓的這個工程師他沒有經驗的話他硬往前推你知道那時候會發生什麼事嗎所以這很重要起碼那個有極具危險像天然氣管線"},{"start":6521.601,"end":6550.424,"text":"我們台南已經有20宗以前的公所要怎麼辦這20宗的公所你要先處理啊先要求我們民間業者要先給相關的資料啊我們會把那個比較有危險性的像天然氣管然後像電線的管路我們會先把它建起來是啊我們自己以身作者再來要求民間業者你這個計畫一定要出來然後還有部長我們的"},{"start":6551.625,"end":6577.574,"text":"地下管線電線的地下管線電纜的地下管線我說的因為台南這一次總共兩三千支的這個電線倒塌我們到底怎麼編列預算這個很重要我們現在是特別預算那工部門的預算怎麼辦你們有思考好了嗎那天行政院長說好未來會思考工部門的預算要來編列那怎麼辦"},{"start":6579.923,"end":6601.662,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分的預算是台電在編列不是經濟部在編列那台電編列當然我們也會思考到就是說整體的施工的量不是啦由台電編我告訴你啦台電到時候就說因為都虧損了所以編不出來啦所以我說為什麼叫經濟部為什麼上到卓院長"},{"start":6602.503,"end":6627.662,"text":"就是這個問題啊叫你們台電編 你們一定編不出來嘛你們說你們都虧損嘛那重點是 這個是韌性電纜韌性電纜要怎麼做我們要實質如果沒有倒了兩三千支可能大家的那個要求性還不高可是這個倒了兩三千支天公伯已經跟你說了你如果沒注意後面可能倒得越多那如果我們沒有位於籌謀怎麼辦"},{"start":6630.137,"end":6640.505,"text":"所以這個我們那個逐步來做啦至於說沒有 你們把計畫放出來到底是你們要編還是經濟部要編是好不好謝謝好 謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員請詢答接下來我們請謝鳳委員請準備謝鳳委員詢答完我們再休息三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":6666.827,"end":6692.92,"text":"有請部長我們再請工部長政委好部長好那今天這個修正公司法的條文我們趙偉 楊瓊英趙偉提了公司法第235條之一的第二項特別提到"},{"start":6693.717,"end":6711.245,"text":"前向公司章程定名应分派员工酬劳至当年度厚率状况至定额或比例不得低于同业平均加薪的比例这个黄建斌委员也提了公司法第235条之一"},{"start":6712.535,"end":6739.333,"text":"这个第二项前项张诚定名分派员工酬劳之当年获利状况之定额或比例之调整不得第一最低工资法第九条消费者物价指数年增率拟定调整幅度他最主要的立法目的啊这个我们都知道这个我们劳工啊劳工的平均首得啊"},{"start":6741.164,"end":6770.069,"text":"是不高的都3萬多而已平均所得所以我們很多公司的盈利都非常好我們也支持但是怎麼樣讓勞工也能夠獲得應有的薪資這個是最主要立法的這個目的所以這個條文要怎麼樣修得更符合"},{"start":6771.294,"end":6788.104,"text":"大家可以討論大家可以討論這個我們經濟部的報告裡面提到說這個你們邀請過相關的專家寫者產業團體相關部會來討論"},{"start":6791.485,"end":6817.487,"text":"要不要说明一下部长这个部分报告委员现在就是希望员工薪资可以提升有几个保障如果是上市会公司当然就是证券交易法里面有规定的他一定有保障的情况那另外鼓励中小企业中小企业发展条例里面也有规范那他可以减除的这个税的优惠从"},{"start":6819.887,"end":6844.886,"text":"130现在到变成175所以那个诱因有提升了那鼓励中小企业对员工加薪那因为现在来讲公司法它涵盖的范围除了这个上市柜之外它还有这个虽然公发公司但是还没有上市柜那更多的是非公发公司那个都是非常非常小的部分那用这个方法来规范他们"},{"start":6845.905,"end":6871.459,"text":"覺得是尤其非常中小微的企業來講的話是比較難而且現在就是說委員的版本是說不要低於這個同業的這個加薪但是就變成兩邊都是動態的那很難去定義所以這個從實務上還有保障上來講的話就是我們提出我們的看法"},{"start":6873.502,"end":6896.784,"text":"但是這個部分還是要去解決了所以你們要提出一個解決的方法立法委員提出這樣的兩種版本到底要用哪一種版本或者是經濟部這個基於勞工的權益應該要"},{"start":6898.929,"end":6927.352,"text":"提出能夠符合各方面的這樣的一個版本最主要的目的就是要保障勞工的薪資所以這個部分我們在我希望經濟部針對這個版本能夠提出更好的版本大家在討論的時候能夠往好的方向好不好"},{"start":6928.902,"end":6956.161,"text":"好 接下来这个石油管理法这跟能源署有关系这个石油管理法第36条是本席在第8届的时候提出修正特别针对喷眼地区 盐住民主地区及离岛地区石油设施运输费用之补助及差额之补贴所以这个后来这个"},{"start":6958.175,"end":6969.818,"text":"能源署也依照石油管理法剛才授權的規定訂了費用補助的辦法基本上簡單講就是統裝瓦斯的補貼"},{"start":6976.713,"end":7001.018,"text":"也謝謝能源署這段時間自從這個法修正之後也都訂了這個補貼的一個辦法也都實施很多年了那現在就是因為我們的全國統裝瓦斯的軍價以今年來講去年也調了上這幾年都有調漲所以這個"},{"start":7005.711,"end":7021.59,"text":"我们看这个报道也是都有提到中油11月起桶装瓦斯每桶占9块所以这个部分相关的这些要配套这个我们能源署所定的这个"},{"start":7023.294,"end":7035.819,"text":"相關的這些補助辦法也要配合去明年今年的已經發了嘛對不對現在就是明年的嘛明年的是不是可以配合調整"},{"start":7038.11,"end":7065.97,"text":"部长可以吗是是我们会配合这个计算公司就会配合调整补助的这个金额也会增加因为这个部分因为这个对一个偏远地区原住民族地区的来讲是非常非常的重要因为这个这么远通常都过去都会因为路途遥远这个厂商在卖的时候就会卖的比较贵啊"},{"start":7067.01,"end":7094.805,"text":"所以才會有這樣的一個修法然後才會有這個訂定這個辦法所以請經濟部能源署配合來訂定最後跟能源署沒有關係 請回座部長還是要代談花蓮光復馬太安溪因為潰壩"},{"start":7097.186,"end":7124.84,"text":"造成重大的傷亡包括這麼大的部落的災情社區的災情所以很重要的提防輸菌相關的這些你們都在做沒有錯都在進行現在是這樣你們就中期中期的話就是到明年"},{"start":7126.25,"end":7152.973,"text":"4月以前對所要完成的這個中期的部分這個你們要讓那個第一個部會之間要讓內政部或是園民會要了解這個中期完成的話到明年4月完成的話然後你們跟農業部去了解這個目前的菸涉福的水量"},{"start":7154.673,"end":7180.1,"text":"萬一又潰壩的話到底會不會造成現在部落的社區的災害為什麼說要有這樣的一個了解是因為大家都擔心這會跟內政部規劃的中繼屋會有關係"},{"start":7181.918,"end":7196.336,"text":"或者是说要不要每个每个人每一个家屋是不是都要有中级屋随时是不是可以要逃离这也会跟这个每一次有台风的时候是不是就要"},{"start":7197.894,"end":7224.077,"text":"就要撤離都會有關係了所以這個部分你們去評估到底怎麼樣今天不必馬上給答案因為那個真的要去評估了好不好知道我的意思嗎我知道事實上謝謝委員提醒現在跨部會平台是還是存在的就是說對於這個驗射服的狀況的這個監視還是持續在監視的在既定的時間甚至於每天都在通報"},{"start":7224.898,"end":7251.849,"text":"那我們的部分蘇峻跟這個加高堤防的部分就會盡快來做明年汛期之前就趕快把它做完那之前也有演練的部分那就一段一段的事實上我要重點對你們來講就是說這個到明年4月以前完成的那個階段是不是現在的水在潰壩的話就不會造成現在就是實際一直在監控當中加油謝謝"},{"start":7255.745,"end":7272.766,"text":"好谢谢来接下来我们请谢一峰委员请做询谈谢谢好谢谢主席我想要请龚部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":7279.997,"end":7299.338,"text":"工部長早安我想要請問你你知道美國最高法院現在在審理川普政府他對等關稅的合法性什麼時候會出來你們有沒有評估好像大家評估說1月吧是不是這個就要看美國最高法院"},{"start":7299.963,"end":7320.758,"text":"的審理的進度你們都沒有評估嗎行政院或者你們經濟部相關的都沒評估嗎我們現在做好就是對等談判還是做好最好的準備因為我們不曉得談判可能的結果但是我們也理解就是說談判會在這個判決前還是判決後出來"},{"start":7321.599,"end":7348.935,"text":"你认为这个你们现在已经在谈了吗是不是对 还是持续谈那我们也有发现就是美国会把对等关税很多的项目基本上慢慢移到232去所以它当然也有一些他们的因应做法我说美国行政部会把它移到232有什么项目有些现在在讨论当中但是232因为还要做产业调查时程上会有一点232是不会受影响的吗"},{"start":7349.695,"end":7372.214,"text":"不会受这个最高法院审理的影响那贝森特也有说他说他可能会有就是说即便不合法的情况下他有可能会引用其他的有可能是122嘛贸易法的122条嘛"},{"start":7372.614,"end":7388.829,"text":"那122條它目前就是比較相對上就是對部分的商品徵收15%然後是150天這比目前我們台灣的對等關稅還要有利"},{"start":7389.77,"end":7408.922,"text":"就是15我們現在是20疊加嘛那他如果這個貿易法的122條的這個150天內徵收最高15%的關稅的話那是比目前的20%加N還要再好那另外他有可能採取的是關稅法338條"},{"start":7410.563,"end":7435.121,"text":"那338條他就會最高稅率就會到50%那請問我們如果未來面對這個情況但第一個情況是對等關稅會不會在審理之前出來那如果在審理之前出來我們是不是能夠爭取到就是說最有利的所以"},{"start":7436.082,"end":7441.152,"text":"像你們當初所認為目標的關稅15%是不是就是像貿易法122條這樣子的一個15%的關稅是不是"},{"start":7445.231,"end":7473.563,"text":"包括委員就是說我們還是至少要比20%要低往下談希望這樣子如果可以到15%的話當然也是我們的期待但是這就是還是中間要談而且不疊加那也希望就是說232的部分我們也可以有比較好的優惠待遇剛剛跟委員報告過因為他們行政部門事實上除了可能會引用其他的法案之外"},{"start":7473.991,"end":7501.046,"text":"也有可能把很多的项目移到232去所以232我们还是要谈所以为什么我们要求你们担心的应该是所有他们把可能加征关税的部分移到232去对 如果被判违宪的话如果那如果合宪就没有问题所以再怎么样我们还是要跟他们行政部门还是要持续的谈才可以保障我们的可能的权益"},{"start":7502.367,"end":7531.57,"text":"所以你也沒有說到底會在審理前我們的對等關稅就會出來因為美中也談了嘛對不對對 因為這個還是很難去預估啦還是要看美中談完了那是不是就是說他們也稀土也都暫緩一年了那是不是現在就就是我們台美的部分有沒有是不是應該要有一個比較比較明朗然後跟民眾也說啊是不是"},{"start":7532.942,"end":7553.2,"text":"当然我们态度上还是期待如果可以快的话我们是希望尽快因为我们毕竟现在的这个临时性的对等关税还是20%我们希望如果可以尽早决定的话如果可以往下调的话对我们帮助是比较好的所以你觉得会尽快谈"},{"start":7554.495,"end":7572.313,"text":"我們期待是希望然後談到15%是不是盡力啦盡力有可能嗎有可能嗎盡力盡力就是按照貿易法的122條對盡力談到15%我們來盡力希望委員給我們支持加油"},{"start":7573.618,"end":7598.3,"text":"我給你加油川普要不要給你加油我們盡力還有我還要再提到就是美中他們談到揮打的晶片這個問題那看來就是如果我們台灣要以就是AI為發展的這樣子一個半導體的未來的規劃"},{"start":7601.667,"end":7625.14,"text":"我們就會勢必要面臨的第一點美國他會不會還是持續的要求我們把我們整個半導體的供應鏈移往美國照美國的看法是這樣他是他國內的需求有一部分希望在美國生產因為他有經濟安全上的一些問題會不會希望加大"},{"start":7627.27,"end":7653.288,"text":"還沒有看到這樣的跡象會不會加大因為現在已經是它主要還是在滿足它美國需求為主它並沒有額外說要出口到其他地區的部分是希望在美國生產到達沒有這樣的情況對 因為它已經改變了過去我們是以就是效率為導向的現在它已經以安全韌性為導向它一直要求我們加大"},{"start":7654.208,"end":7678.073,"text":"過去在台灣生產對他們來講最有效率可是他們現在因為安全跟韌性的問題一直要求我們加大對美的投資對我們來講的話如果那邊有訂單可以獲益的話當然廠商的佈局我跟你講這是陷阱你一直去但是未來如果沒有一直去啦"},{"start":7679.494,"end":7697.086,"text":"我說他要求我們一直去嘛是不是那未來如果他們又調高美就是調高台灣相關的產品對美的這個關稅因為這個東西掌握在他們手上啊是不是這個主控權不在我們所以這個也是談判的過程嘛"},{"start":7697.806,"end":7718.576,"text":"對 我是說如果啦我們一直去的情況下當然不是這一次的談判如果下次或者是未來他們反而就是說提高了台灣蘇美半導體的相關的關稅的時候那我們就完了那時候你可能不是經濟部長啦"},{"start":7719.896,"end":7735.741,"text":"台灣總要有一個合理性跟一個依據嘛那你說你為了滿足美國國內的需求有一部分的產能在美國我覺得這個是還算是合理的但是你如果要過多的話而且是沒有假設是沒有效率的生產但是這不合理啊"},{"start":7736.441,"end":7752.974,"text":"也會影響到我們的就業人口啊會影響到台灣的就業人口啊台灣的部分倒沒有問題台灣的部分現在時序的半導體一直在增加我們只是現在擔心的就是說土地不足以去支撐那麼多的這些半導體廠或者是"},{"start":7755.195,"end":7783.437,"text":"相关的资源包括您刚才提到的人力的部分是啊因为不管是因为很多我们如果要去美国设厂我们的人力就要就是有一部分势必要去建厂等等相关的规划一定是往美国去那相关的我们在台湾如果要发展相关的半导体的时候所以您可以看到台积电的话它是建厂的人过去盖完厂以后它就回来所以它不会一直留在美国"},{"start":7783.877,"end":7810.156,"text":"那如果他要求我們加大呢你有辦法嗎有沒有辦法不要讓他要求我們加大啊因為加大到時候美國生產太多台灣要輸美的這些半島有關稅他又未來他如果突然把我們加高關稅咧沒有 他這個就是談判的過程他要我們去投資的話一定這個關稅會有最惠國的待遇我們才會同意啊"},{"start":7811.235,"end":7839.729,"text":"这是一个谈判过程好还有我觉得我们也必须要考量到大陆市场的AI发展我就说在全球的视角里面美国跟大陆是AI两个一个是高阶一个是低阶的相关的发展那大陆的市场对我们也是相当的有诱因那这样子的情况下我们未来我们的科技业要怎么样分散这些风险"},{"start":7840.609,"end":7855.124,"text":"但是也是我們台灣政府必須要考量的是 只要不是在這個管制的項目範圍啊那或者是不在實體金單那我們還是跟中國還是有正常的交易啊這沒有問題啊"},{"start":7856.767,"end":7879.942,"text":"對 我是說我們的 我們還是必須要就是說因為如果未來AI的產業在全球要蓬勃發展 不要泡沫化我相信就是說美國的高階跟就是在大陸的這樣低階的這個AI的相關的發展性都必須要並重那台灣才會在這個位置上面有最大的立即點嗎"},{"start":7880.742,"end":7904.754,"text":"我們的AI的產業發展才會有最大的利基點我認為經濟部必須要一言就是審慎的去考量這樣子的就是兩者的相關性好不好是 所以我剛才特別提到了如果它不在實體清單也不在管制項目範圍裡面那我們當然是樂觀其成這個本來就正常的貿易在進行當中好 謝謝"},{"start":7908.516,"end":7914.851,"text":"好 謝謝薛一鋒委員謝謝龔部長我們現在休息三分鐘不好意思剛剛也宣布了 不好意思"},{"start":8288.51,"end":8295.618,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 謝謝 請回座好接下來我們請賴立仁委員請做詢談 謝謝好 謝謝召委 請工部長我們再請工部長"},{"start":8310.609,"end":8320.484,"text":"部長我先請教一下這個第三屆經濟成長率衝到7.64這個很好的一個成績全年大到5%以上部長怎麼看"},{"start":8322.655,"end":8343.553,"text":"對啊 事實上在年中的時候我就覺得應該會有比較好的成績但是這個成績應該又比你預期的更高了對 因為AI的需求真的比想像中要大所以到年底前這個5%以上應該是沒有問題沒有問題可能還比想像中還要好甚至可能會更高"},{"start":8344.574,"end":8363.1,"text":"但是在這樣的狀況下我還是要提醒一點就是說其實是在AI的這些相關的包括出口的我還是要特別提醒在傳產的部分其實要特別要給予更多的支持跟重視啦部長要不要講一下對傳產這一塊我認為是要加強對他們的支持跟重視不然那個差距感會更加的強烈所以為什麼"},{"start":8364.72,"end":8383.878,"text":"院长一开始就只是我们的中小微企业的振兴发展方案所以连续两年各编的就是超过100亿来支持中小微企业那之后还有两个就是特别预算振兴特别预算我们也编了461那这些经费主要都是会用在"},{"start":8385.356,"end":8402.314,"text":"您提到的传统产业跟中小企业全部会用在这边那当然从它的资金面来支持不管是可以贷款可以展延的部分或雨天不收展甚至于增加贷款的这个信保的额度然后或者是利息的补贴"},{"start":8403.035,"end":8424.899,"text":"那其他另外有一个就是升级转型的协助所以每一家的这个企业好像这些政策都能够很务实落实下去让这些传统产业有感也不要在我们的极其高成长的状况下的时候对我们现在也组织了这个辅导团到北中南分区大家每一个都有他的这个责任范围"},{"start":8425.356,"end":8453.67,"text":"那希望在這個區域裡面的中小微企業還有傳統產業都可以受到這個升級轉型的這個支持跟輔導好 謝謝部長那進來我請教一下其實我們的這個科技產業園區其實老舊的廠房更新這個都很重要那包括前陣男子甚至於談子都有做了這些更新這個我全力都支持那我希望這三個特別是老舊的廠房這樣的更新的速度要持續來做部長這個沒有問題吧"},{"start":8455.211,"end":8473.996,"text":"沒問題吧沒有問題那前陣這一塊的他是把舊有的警察廳設改成財經大樓那616的經費在2029年會完成那我也希望一方面加速完成一方面加速完成之後我希望後面那個騰龍換兩條工作持續進行部長這個政策上應該是沒有問題嗎沒有問題"},{"start":8476.677,"end":8499.633,"text":"對就是說把舊的廳舍拆掉蓋新的之後那原來那個移走的那個廳舍繼續再蓋新的那再把其他再移進來再蓋新的一棟一棟換因為它都是50年的早期50年的一個園區了所以很多的舊大樓更新之後成為新的一個符合科技園區的大樓這個才是讓潛鎮園區包括男子園區包括男子園區一個風華再現最好的做法"},{"start":8500.673,"end":8520.031,"text":"這個部長會全力支持全力支持好 謝謝那再來我也請教一下男子的部分其實剛剛提到了錢證6.6億男子也編了13億不是 談子編了13億但男子這一塊還沒有進行他需要架構跟拆除這個老舊廠房來興建我也希望這個加速來進行"},{"start":8521.112,"end":8547.243,"text":"部長這個可以加速嗎這一個工程可以可以一個月內給我你們的規劃的報告好不好進度的報告因為他需要把土地是國有的土地是經濟部的但是上面的廠房老舊廠房架構之後然後重新來蓋新的一個產房一樣騰龍換鳥的方式我希望這個加速來進行好不好一個月內給我你們的一個規劃的報告是好的好謝謝那再來我請教了其實"},{"start":8549.551,"end":8571.113,"text":"台積電的部分台積電其實在我們的這個中科有落場1奈米的部分那當然2奈米現在在高雄男子也加速在進行那1奈米的部分其實在白浦園區也持續在爭取我也希望部長能夠持續來協助其實當然男科"},{"start":8571.713,"end":8587.415,"text":"包括高雄的百埔都是有機會的我也希望部長協助當我們電力水土地都準備好的時候我也希望鼓勵台積電一樣持續的往南邊走讓南邊能夠區域均衡發展的效果這個部長可不可以請你繼續支持"},{"start":8589.838,"end":8613.846,"text":"好跟台積電持續溝通進到白浦進到我們的高雄那再來我請教一下是用電的部分這個現在全台的用電其實環境的成本高雄跟雲林甚至台中都承擔的比較重的一些環境的成本那我認為其實對地方上面應該有公平的一些合理的對待所以"},{"start":8614.386,"end":8639.838,"text":"當然我希望能夠思考一下推動一個差異的電價就是說有些地方是蓋電廠不蓋的不蓋電廠的但有些地方是很為了國家的電力的需求在蓋電廠的那這樣電廠狀況下的時候其實應該思考了某些區域他付出了相當多的空污付出相當多的一些代價的時候那我們能不能再給予他電價上面給予合理的對待"},{"start":8640.598,"end":8658.581,"text":"那當然有些地方用電量高但是你卻沒有電廠你也不願付出的那差異電價這個部分部長這個考不考慮邦委員這改變比較大所以我們現在是用促銜金或回饋金的方式來"},{"start":8660.106,"end":8677.077,"text":"支持在地的這個民眾出血經跟回饋經如果有具體的成效的話就不會發生很多地方其實不要蓋就是整個電廠上的其實狀況是遇到這樣的問題的啦那我是希望是至少如果你用差別電價的時候比如說高雄發了很多的電"},{"start":8678.238,"end":8694.071,"text":"燃氣電廠一直在蓋這個雲林也在蓋台中也在蓋的時候那他覺得我有被照顧到我的電價可能比較便宜一點點因為你的電廠所以你有便宜了一點你心理上至少覺得政府有在重視我的感受那如果你本身用電量大你卻都沒有"},{"start":8694.831,"end":8721.773,"text":"也不願意蓋電廠的你的電價稍微高一點點有電廠也有一個好處現在尤其是算力或者是AI時代的來臨事實上它有極大的優勢很多好的不是啊那就必須要讓這些優勢很具體的呈現出來啊但是在很多時候我並沒有看到這樣的比如說輝達選擇輝達總部的選擇還是選擇在台北啊總部比較不需要電力但是它的算力中心它是跟但是我們要的是更好的產業的嘛"},{"start":8722.754,"end":8740.897,"text":"是 所以他的算力中心是在高雄啊部長 這樣的思維其實是有點問題的我要的不是那個我要的不是比較辛苦比較低薪在第一端第一線在做的我要的是高端的東西啊沒有 算力中心是很高端算力中心跟這個總部當然大家選擇要總部啊"},{"start":8742.299,"end":8764.221,"text":"誰會希望自己用的是一個高耗電高用電的椅子但沒錯都是好啦但是相較能選擇當然大家要的當然都是總部都是研發中心誰會希望自己的是算力中心這個像台積電製造廠他一定要在有電所以我希望這兩件事情同步要去思考同步請 不能同步思考"},{"start":8764.821,"end":8786.196,"text":"要不你要讓用電量發電量大的城市感受到政府在鼓勵的力道上是大的讓企業進去的力道是大的那這樣子當然就會覺得對我發的電多我是為我的儲備有更多電力讓更多產業進來那這樣就有感人民就會有感那如果沒辦法做到這一點的話那你的差別天價就要思考"},{"start":8786.536,"end":8812.439,"text":"你要讓真正為國家付出這麼多電的他有感受到我付出這麼多我有沒有得到政府的公平的思考我們再來講你看六都的電力裡面的自給率高雄是第一名 桃園第二台北是最低的 台北1.4%而已但是所有的總部所有的所有東西都是幾乎到台北去了這樣是嚴重的不公平包括在統籌分配款裡面我們看台北拿到了400多億台北拿到400多億 六都最多"},{"start":8813.34,"end":8841.625,"text":"中南部反對相對都是少的所以在這種失衡不公平的狀況下的時候一定要用各種方式讓人民感受到我們政府有在思考一個公平性的原則如果在電力上面的時候大家電力不斷的是中南部供應電力然後北部在做使用但是電價卻全部一樣那投資多數都集中在北部的時候那中南部鄉親的感受怎麼會好呢所以我希望要整體去思考我也希望差別電力的事情"},{"start":8842.466,"end":8862.689,"text":"經濟部跟台電要納入思考我當然知道這是一件很不容易的事情但是唯有思考的時候你們才會認真去對待這件事情才認真去思考著不應該讓國人民有一塊人是很認真積極的配合國家政策在發電但有一邊的人是我要用電我要招商但是我不要發電我希望這件事情經濟部長要審慎思考這件事情好不好"},{"start":8863.963,"end":8892.346,"text":"不過我們現在還是優先的趕快均衡台灣的相關的政策來推動部長剛剛你講的均衡台灣跟差別變價這兩件事情請你一個月給我一個評估報告好不好好給我評估意見好謝謝好接下來我們請召委楊群英召委質詢謝主席楊群英發言邀請工部長部長"},{"start":8899.733,"end":8899.995,"text":"照顧好"},{"start":8900.666,"end":8928.849,"text":"部長好 首先本席在跟你討論台電盤點核電的議題那我們對內是希望我們的產業發展對外我們更希望它比照等於是鞏固國安因為我們現在能源大概依賴進口的天然氣但是如果萬一有遭到封鎖的時候那這怎麼辦所以到目前為止在之前的郭部長"},{"start":8929.99,"end":8945.769,"text":"那政府也告訴我們說核電的部分呢是採開放式的一個態度開放式的態度到目前為止經濟部你的立場是不是也延續郭部長的開放式的這個態度呢"},{"start":8946.289,"end":8967.957,"text":"是是我们这是依法行政依规定来办还是开放性的这个态度因为合法已经修了嘛那我们就按照这个法来进行按照这个法来进行那现在台电呢在10月初也盘点好了送到你经济部那你经济部什么时候会合呢"},{"start":8969.837,"end":8976.021,"text":"什麼時候 為何在院長的總質詢的時候我們說一個月之內一個月之內是什麼時候呢"},{"start":8977.83,"end":9005.953,"text":"就是昨天是院長答詢嘛就一個月之內就是現在是11月嘛是12月初吧最晚現在是11月初所以你等於是12月初會核對就是核他的現況評估報告這一個部分對對對因為你沒有核定之後他才能夠有下一個動作才能夠去安檢嘛對對對那這個安檢要多久時間呢"},{"start":9008.457,"end":9029.926,"text":"台電的規劃是這樣就是說這個同意以後他們會啟動一個再運轉的計畫那這個再運轉計畫當然要送到河岸會那邊去然後也開始啟動它的自主的安全檢查然後這個檢查就要看本席非常清楚因為這個法也是本席所提出所以本席要請問那你們預計會多久時間"},{"start":9034.144,"end":9055.862,"text":"我刚才提到了这个现在11月初你说的12月初你们要核核才会有下一个动作你如果核可之后他们下一个动作大概会要多久时间下一个动作这个自主安全检查就要看那个跟西屋公司怎么样合作因为这个不是我们自己检查而已要国外的这个团队"},{"start":9056.702,"end":9080.189,"text":"當然嘛 因為我們有法可依所以你一定有你的KPI是不是請王總經理說一下你們如果他核了12月初的時候核你們預計會多久時間這個部分要牽涉到剛才部長提到的我們還要有所謂的跟其他的本期清楚 所以請問你的KPI到底"},{"start":9081.842,"end":9094.367,"text":"因為經濟部說啊也是開放性的態度嘛針對核電嘛那所以我們就要開始工作啦那你開始工作它核了12月初核你們預估會多久時間呢"},{"start":9095.7,"end":9112.428,"text":"我们现在只是评估有哪一些项目要去做测试至于说每一个项目测试的时间会有多长多短都是需要真正做下去以后才知道它的问题的不是真正做下去这个有世界的经验"},{"start":9113.829,"end":9135.152,"text":"那你們應該要設定KPI嘛 對不對你應該對啊 你要很誠實的來回答這個問題嘛因為大家既然是採開放性的態度那當然你們必須要將你們的流程 你的時間點要提出嘛還有就是說你的重點 你要檢核的重點是什麼"},{"start":9136.375,"end":9165.801,"text":"對 現在都有在準備都有在準備當中準備什麼 你的重點是什麼就是剛才部長提到的再運轉計畫還有就是那個自主安全檢查這兩個項目好 所以曾董事長也說核二呢因為它在這個北東電網它是最具供電的價值那核三呢它是比較符合這個安檢的條件那如果依照董事長所說部長你們是兩座一起"},{"start":9166.362,"end":9169.089,"text":"还是会折衣还是如何呢我们因为这个"},{"start":9173.795,"end":9202.337,"text":"启动的时间应该是会并行但是它的程序会不一样因为核二它有多一道手续你现在说的是核二跟核三启动一并来安检这个我们了解因为我们看到AI的算力它是发展要很大的电力这个大家都非常清楚所以因此美国 日本 韩国回答苹果 Google他们都是在发展"},{"start":9203.038,"end":9229.191,"text":"都在發展這樣的一個電力所以呢我們看到說重啟核能他是國安的關鍵喔因為剛才本席說了如果一旦遭到這個能源的一個遭到封鎖那這個是非常嚴肅嚴重的議題喔所以呢我們必須要將我們的能源生產跟保存的能力這個是非常的重要對不對那個部長"},{"start":9229.671,"end":9245.22,"text":"是 所以我們依法行政現在法已經給我們一些空間了好 所以我也希望今天我們聽到和二跟和三是要同步那我們也希望台電這個部門跟經濟部你們要去盤點"},{"start":9246.621,"end":9260.537,"text":"那你们要多久时间我们会继续在会议当中再继续讨论让国人可以安心下来谢谢接下来本席要跟你讨论今天的议题也就是修正本席所提案的公司法第235条之一"},{"start":9262.599,"end":9277.292,"text":"也就是民進公司分派員工的酬勞的定額比例不得低於同業平均的加薪比例以及我們目的要健全一個薪資分派的機制改善低薪的樣態"},{"start":9277.912,"end":9304.498,"text":"因為我們的薪資跟全世界來評比我們是低的那既然是認定是低的我們要怎麼樣去協助所有的員工所以本期提出235條之一公司法那同時也提出修正公司法第387條也就是配合實務需求將公司登記的代理人來增列記帳室那提升中小企業營運的效率我們也非常的清楚會計師對我們台灣的產業"},{"start":9307.759,"end":9334.822,"text":"他是非常的貢獻濟藏市對於台灣的產業也非常的貢獻所以兩者都非常的用心為我們台灣的產業來努力那我們也提出這樣的方向剛剛本席也聽到部長你的回答你認為在考試的方面必須要怎麼樣精進這是你剛剛的回答所以本席也希望你提出你的方案"},{"start":9335.202,"end":9361.718,"text":"提出你的方案因為台灣我們必須聯合合作去創造最大的利基去賺全世界人的錢所以我剛剛也聽到你的這個應對方案我也希望得到你所提出的這個方案要怎麼做最後一個本席修正能源管理法第7條這7條也就是設置能源儲存設備修正為能源這個"},{"start":9363.259,"end":9377.942,"text":"儲存能的一個設備我們希望在並往的電力穩定性跟供需平衡所以這個部分你們還在行政院是剛剛你的回答是說還要再兩個月他說兩個月之內兩個月之內這個能源法現在這麼的重要"},{"start":9388.55,"end":9415.046,"text":"因為那個是行政院我們沒有辦法幫行政院決定不過我們討論過好幾次應該已經成熟了所以我們預估他不會太久你不能這麼回答你沒有辦法替行政院決定而是本席要請問你既然你們認為這麼重要為什麼到現在還提不出來立法委員我們已經看到產業界的需求已經提出行政院到底什麼時候會送到"},{"start":9417.668,"end":9444.451,"text":"這個立法院來討論呢我們盡快跟行政院反映你的盡快是多快因為我們今天已經選答你盡快是多快剛剛署長說是不是給我們一兩個月的時間是 我們會跟行政院拜託他盡快因為我們這個去年預告我們有草案但是因為他牽涉到其他的意見還有他牽涉到電業法 再生能源法律"},{"start":9444.827,"end":9463.366,"text":"跟其他的所以我們可能還需要一些部長您聽到署長的回答去年已經預告去年到現在快多久時間因為他牽涉到好幾個不同他快多久時間所以腳步一定要提起因為本席在主持的時候我都認為我們必須要經過充分的討論"},{"start":9464.747,"end":9478.291,"text":"這個才能夠真正去制定一個好的方向出來讓產業界讓國人可以安心穩定這個能源所以你們的腳步務必要加強因為去年就已經預告了是不是"},{"start":9483.055,"end":9509.073,"text":"赶快加紧脚步去沟通赶快送到立法院来是不是所以最后一个议题本席要跟你讨论的也就是说目前为止我们看到9月10月的出口它是四季红但是我们看到电子支通的部分是占了72.4%所以我要跟你讨论的是传统中小企业所面临的困境现在订单已经启动"},{"start":9510.239,"end":9532.941,"text":"已經做三天 修四天做三天 修四天不然你知道這個要怎樣嗎一部分的企業的確是這樣的尤其我們的工具機手工具機械類別零組件 扣件工具機是比較不好但是機械業現在已經慢慢回穩了所以我們希望的就是說我們這些產業你要怎麼樣實際去幫助它"},{"start":9534.622,"end":9544.611,"text":"而不是你只有看到出口四季紅但是實際上台灣96%都是傳統的中小企業製造業又佔了90%在167家裡頭 對不對所以我們的製造業8.5萬多家那麼它幾乎佔了90%它的勞動力也在這裡啊我們要怎麼樣協助他們"},{"start":9558.664,"end":9581.284,"text":"我們要怎麼協助他們我們現在提出的方案你轉型我給你補助你再借款我給你利息對不對你現在這麼做可是可是部長我要跟你討論一個實際的問題不然看得到吃不得到我現在就已經沒有辦法貸款了我應該要先生存下來才是重點啊"},{"start":9582.245,"end":9610.934,"text":"是不是我應該要先生存下來啊所以針對於我們為國家這麼重大努力建設貢獻的傳統產業你是不是去考慮將現有的他們所貸款的你的利息怎麼樣協助他們你讓他們可以怎麼樣先存生存下來對不對因為沒有生存下來你會嚴重到我們所有的勞工啊你的就業率又會"},{"start":9612.852,"end":9635.125,"text":"这个又会有一个麻烦的事情产生啊是的对不对是的所以你去原意好不好让我们传统的中小企业尤其制造类别的它能够先生存下来能够先生存下来这才是重点嘛你把你的经济方案给本席我们一起来讨论好不好是的谢谢"},{"start":9647.533,"end":9649.869,"text":"好 謝謝 我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員請做詢問"},{"start":9673.1,"end":9683.866,"text":"好 主席在堂委員先進列席的政府金融市場官員會場工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部拱部長能源署李署長以及負稅署的林專門委員我們請三位 謝謝"},{"start":9693.065,"end":9721.094,"text":"莊委好部長好署長好專委好完善能源定義推廣深度節能我們輕能車要納入國產車的轉型補助先請教一下我們目前的能源法制推動深度節能包括看到了為了鼓勵節電所以能源管理法當中為了維護消費的權益如果飆受不實的節能加電會被罰會提高對不對是這樣嗎部長是ok好那我們經濟部預告了能管法當中把再生能源熱能納入這很好"},{"start":9721.876,"end":9749.607,"text":"這個熱能不只是蒸汽包括生殖能 氫能都可以用熱能的方式來使用是不是也要把它納入能管法部長 是不是這樣是的好 所以我們現在要等行政版本我們就要趕快的行政版本拿出來但是在此之前有個要請教往下一頁看台灣是不是成為全球少數具有自製氫能電巴的國家剛剛你們的邱署長我問了他這一題他在財政委員會我們看一下國產車有個氫能巴是已經上路了"},{"start":9750.134,"end":9770.778,"text":"而且中油也在高雄男子社的嘉青站那麼其他國家的氫能巴士我們台灣有競爭力我們的成本只要一半預估今年的氫能車的關鍵零組件的自製率可以提高7成5而且我們還引進了第一輛氫燃料電池的重型卡車部長是不是很期待我們台灣能夠充分運用這樣的新興能源"},{"start":9771.877,"end":9793.856,"text":"是的 是的好 那麼輕能比較特別那你覺得輕能車除了我們經濟部補助之外相關的貨物稅跟使用牌照稅是不是也要比照電動車可以免稅呢是 我支持這樣你支持那目前輕能車能不能比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅好像還要跟負稅組討論一下負稅組"},{"start":9797.444,"end":9822.329,"text":"我們要再演繹一下不對你們剛剛的部長啊我剛剛在財政委員會部長跟署長說對 輕能車現在就是比照電動車所以部長好好的去宣傳財政部已經親口說輕能車就是比照電動車免徵貨物稅跟牌照稅部長應該開心一下吧你不要那麼緊張我們再確定一下你擔心剛剛部長跟署長是不是有騙了是不是"},{"start":9823.683,"end":9837.742,"text":"他們親口講的啊好往下看我們當然歡迎因為他是未來的對好往下看那麼氫能移動跟工業應用呢那既然財政部你都希望他免稅了那你經濟部自己的補助要不要提高啊"},{"start":9838.663,"end":9853.571,"text":"目前是1000萬嘛對 我們大概差不多好像補助一半嘛對 那你們要不要再提高一半因為現在的各自氫能車可能它的造價更貴囉報告委員因為我們現在補助的話大概不希望超過50%對 不要超過50%大概最高2000萬可不可以考慮如果它3000萬你可以補助到1500啊"},{"start":9858.437,"end":9874.83,"text":"最多50%對最多50%但是我們希望1000往上提好不好你要求別人慷慨都要求了自己說這麼小氣可以嗎對我們希望如果50%之下我們可以考慮好50%之下把最上限額提高到目標是2000萬好不好"},{"start":9877.096,"end":9904.819,"text":"怎麼這又不講話了呢免稅就很開心補助就在那邊因為我不曉得它那個每一部價錢不太一樣沒有錯啦但是就是不能超過50%但是上限如果超過2000萬我們上限把它提高嘛OK 好 謝謝好 國產車要轉型因為遇到了美國的關稅衝擊我們很多國產車的領土建廠我們希望把這些內容你們已經預留了1000億對不對是不是這樣"},{"start":9906.015,"end":9906.577,"text":"為了產業轉型嘛 約1000億國產輕能車能不能納入輔導方案"},{"start":9913.108,"end":9939.225,"text":"產業署邱署長在上面在財政委員會沒關係你會後問他我剛也問過了他也支持啦但是不要說我騙你你再問他好不好部長要支持啊產業署是支持的往下看你們不曉得你們今天已經被我分離真訊了我剛才財政委員會先問過兩個了因為財政部長 負稅署長問過你們邱協會署長那個青年車的國產化我們本來就會支持本來就會支持好那所以呢"},{"start":9940.392,"end":9960.377,"text":"時間也到了 所以今天剛剛我們的詢答你所承諾的日後都會成為呈堂證供那麼經濟部一定要勇於承擔 好不好好 謝謝謝謝接下來我們請陳昌明委員資深委員 謝謝"},{"start":9971.02,"end":9998.479,"text":"主席好首先有請我們龔部長我們再請龔部長這位好今天有一個法案就是要把記帳室納入公司法387條登記代理人是的那我不曉得部長的看法還是我們商業室的看法"},{"start":9999.873,"end":10018.931,"text":"對 因為我們是認為就是說如果要把季上市納進來的話因為有一些他們這個考試的這個專業領域可能要稍微擴充跟他的這個所執行的業務可以相襯那我們會跟這個考試院做比較好的溝通"},{"start":10020.622,"end":10044.442,"text":"讓這個程序比較完備的時候他才有辦法執行這樣的業務看起來 聽起來你不只將把記上市納入公司法387條登記代理人但是柏霖我告訴你我從立法委每一次每一屆都有人來拜託但是實在講有大有小"},{"start":10045.663,"end":10072.534,"text":"你怎麼知道中小企業、微企業它剛剛創立的時候找律師的費用特別的高都叫做找記帳室我們自己叫做技巧其實這些人就用幾十年這樣的訓練磨練也出了很多的人才我公司不大那個小記帳室是真的陪著公司上升的一個最主要的助力"},{"start":10074.195,"end":10085.031,"text":"大公司大律師大會計師你們就乖乖的其實那些記帳是對中小企業的幫忙是非常的大"},{"start":10085.987,"end":10109.184,"text":"我覺得他們觀點一定要分開你大的公司資本的到多少就給律師跟會計師其他記賬室在地方都是AO的不大不小但是現在已經訓練到記賬室的那個事務所也是人才聚集啊不要看穿他們啦那幾十年我們會左右為難"},{"start":10111.452,"end":10137.873,"text":"選舉一到的時候他也來拜託 他也來拜託我們也拜託他 他也拜託我們但是我跟你說記賬室比會計師 律師還要多人所以你們這個好好修改你們不敢面對如果你今天打這樣的話表示你不曉得中小企業成長的過程幾乎都是跟記賬室在一起的我希望你們好好考慮一下"},{"start":10139.422,"end":10154.12,"text":"市長 你的態度是怎麼樣市長 市長 市長 現在要改了對 我們剛剛已經講了沒有啦 你們要去想啦你們不可以看人家的表明那個計帳室確實幫中長那會計師律師的工會比較大你們就 工會就"},{"start":10158.083,"end":10170.56,"text":"那个报委员不是这样其实包括记账室跟会计师跟我们的互动跟对企业的协助我跟你讲的是实际情形所以我们其实是有很认真在考虑这个真的要考虑了"},{"start":10171.867,"end":10195.614,"text":"你要分牛大概你多少了因為他是陪著中小企業成長那些律師 會計師沒那麼怕命啦所以我們想說一定的考試他合格以後就可以辦理這樣的事好不好 你要趕快做講了幾十年了啦我每次左右為難啦嫌棄欠人家人情誰也不敢得罪但是我把事情講出來啦好不好 讓你們了解好 謝謝"},{"start":10198.963,"end":10225.438,"text":"國務部長 你當過國話會主委行政院秘書長 現在又經濟部長那我再問你一個問題 請教你一個問題川普當總統還能當習人我現在問你 你不要笑 這個問題很簡單 大家都曉得他們規定大概就是總共八年了 這個他們憲法上的規定你覺得他還有下一任嗎"},{"start":10226.687,"end":10242.011,"text":"因為他們規定就是八年不是八年 他已經做過一次美國的憲法做連續加起來八年你要改變美國的憲法所以他只能當一日除了修改美國的憲法對不對你真是八極 講到八年 大家三天你沒聽說過可以連續做八年"},{"start":10246.767,"end":10274.856,"text":"那我為什麼今天問你這個問題他總共一生當中他總共一生當中對對對 林郎公益社會你巴結的也很厲害不是不是不是 我剛才講諾貝爾獎你看總統都講說他要很多總統不是他都說要他拿諾貝爾獎你說他可以張八年另外一種拍馬屁的方式一流的沒有啦 他已經做過四年多現在五年他已經做過了所以他最多還只能再做三年而已啊"},{"start":10276.226,"end":10303.729,"text":"這次APEC在釜山中美的貿易戰你覺得如何 誰贏誰輸中美貿易戰 現在有短暫時間的和解但是它的根源還是存在它的根源存在 現在需不在歷年那我比較 因為你是台灣很重要的人士你覺得第三次世界大戰會不會爆發"},{"start":10307.829,"end":10336.21,"text":"不會啦我認為很有可能不會啦所以這次EPICA的會議是大豆跟稀土對著關稅跟晶片的大戰那這次的戰爭是非常慘烈只是短暫的休息那稀土的話對台灣的電子業影響有多大"},{"start":10338.326,"end":10352.045,"text":"要跟我說實話喔我為了不問你這個問題我特別打過喔那最主要就是磁鐵馬達那個部分影響比較大對台灣來講台灣用量很小都是買國外的對對對"},{"start":10355.189,"end":10367.904,"text":"這也不一定你經營製造也要他的製造端的部分他現在沒有在他這幾項的管制範圍裡面沒有製造端但是我跟你說我看到這樣"},{"start":10369.577,"end":10394.229,"text":"中美貿易戰從貿易 科技 軍事一直這樣延伸下來那台灣把中國大陸認為是一個境外敵對勢力萬一他不賣給西土給台灣你覺得會怎麼樣報告委員就像我們是間接這個我是判斷啦"},{"start":10395.871,"end":10423.852,"text":"真的對視得很厲害的話這種情形會產生啊你不要以為不可能啊所以目前為止我們是間接進口嘛大部分從日本跟歐洲還有這個美國來嘛那我們現在開始要自建我們的這個厲害喔如果依照資料你自建產業包括你要經程度最起碼要五年以上所以這一年休戰是大家都在準備啊"},{"start":10424.358,"end":10450.374,"text":"是 我们也尽快在准备所以明年也开始启动了我觉得啊自己准备的存量情况是非常不好台湾的电子业这边整个要是封锁起来我们真的要启动我们自己应该准备的一个方案在不过目前来讲半导体受的影响是还好是比较没有受到影响我觉得不怎么好我看了一个资料它还有一个工业战士"},{"start":10452.439,"end":10473.969,"text":"這個是台灣一定要用晶片的開始製造跟切割少了它就沒有辦法咱們不要自得其樂以為自己很強我告訴你還有現在那個APP已經結束了那台灣的對等關稅談了怎麼樣我還沒有新的訊息"},{"start":10477.371,"end":10500.634,"text":"談判的訊息還是在副院長跟談判辦公室那邊你當經濟部長都沒有訊息我有參與討論這是你經濟部最主要要去關心的問題你都沒有訊息不是那個談判的時間還是談判辦公室大概什麼時候談判能完成"},{"start":10501.397,"end":10520.619,"text":"大家都在等不然剛剛我們楊強威召委說傳統產業已經現在被折磨了實在沒有什麼訂單開始放無薪假你說AI伺服器這邊比較好這個未來的變化還不曉得最近的無薪假稍微下降了"},{"start":10521.239,"end":10533.885,"text":"我跟妳說我們都要注意一點其實台灣我是覺得搖來搖去比較有前途不要靠哪一邊隨時發生的狀況我們都不曉得我們也沒有辦法左右"},{"start":10534.798,"end":10550.527,"text":"我會說我們現在像是任人宰割的狀況你自己要了解這樣的狀況如果你讀過整篇看過的時候因為你現在都說得很清楚台灣很強建立台灣人信心其實在幾個產業裡面已經發生了"},{"start":10553.755,"end":10578.929,"text":"会有很大的变化台湾过去70年来都是一直在挑战的过程当中我们中小企业跟传统产业大家的协助之下一步一步都渡过这个难关所以我们还是我们希望能渡过难关但是这次真的会不一样一定要注意整个产业发展传统产业里面的精密产业一定不能放"},{"start":10579.509,"end":10599.472,"text":"这一点特别重要因为那是根基我一直你来拜访我也强调这一点电子业也很好但是那个是根基精密产业是根基一定要维持住尤其台中地带我们苗栗比较少都在那个地方一定要把他们保护好谢谢"},{"start":10603.373,"end":10609.682,"text":"非常感谢谢谢陈昭明委员谢谢龚部长接下来我们请郭国文委员请做询谈谢谢谢谢主席有请龚部长我们再请龚部长"},{"start":10625.501,"end":10644.009,"text":"部長好 因為今天修改公司法的提案本席有提出一個閉鎖期的縮短根據公司法第165條閉鎖期高達兩個月但是經濟部對外的說法一直考量到業者 古代業者的問題卻沒有考量股東的權益"},{"start":10644.809,"end":10667.791,"text":"這些事情其實已經爭議許久但是經濟部一直說要檢討檢討 檢討十年還是在原地踏步從有公司化以來 這個爭議不斷更何況現階段臨時股東大會也好 常會也好有一個是兩個月 一個是一個月這個基本上都是在進行一個選務的工作為什麼一個月做起來 兩個月做不起來"},{"start":10668.431,"end":10684.705,"text":"更何況現在已經到數位化無紙化的一個階段電子化程度越來越高一個集保作業的話三天就可以確立股東名冊我不曉得為什麼經濟部還是採取一個抗拒的立場我們能不能請部長說明一下應該要面對這個問題應該改這個問題時間已經拖這麼久不應該停留在檢討階段部長請回答"},{"start":10689.46,"end":10708.805,"text":"是 謝委員的指導我們商業署因為這樣的議案也跟相關的這些公司或是對 你們就考量古代業者每次的理由就是古代是 他們就認為就是說這個時間讓他們可以你們要考慮到股東的權益這個時間從以前"},{"start":10711.926,"end":10729.493,"text":"股票證券在紙的時代就這樣子了到現在已經到無紙的時代數十年來如不一日都沒有做任何改變那個部長我講實在話你們基本上應該考慮到股東行動主義的這個必要性的情況底下要有一個備套的措施第一個"},{"start":10730.513,"end":10741.934,"text":"你們如果說對這個公司規模或公開的這個規模不一樣公開人數不一樣的話報委員是不是這樣就是說因為您提的這個十間二十間這個看起來是真的是不是允許我們跟"},{"start":10743.055,"end":10767.049,"text":"金管會或是我們討論一下剛剛我才跟金管會主委討論過他們也不反對縮短縮短可以縮短可以縮短啊天數可能我們再對嘛你們要講出來一個方式嘛而且其他國家也是基準的制度也是逐漸縮短就唯獨台灣還停留在原始的狀態對不對可以縮短朝廷縮短第二點我再問一下那個那個部長部長"},{"start":10768.75,"end":10796.014,"text":"這個昨天呢我在這個總質詢的時候就教育您的部分呢有關於能源轉型的2.0你已經提出2.0了ESG的部分也有一個2.0ESG的部分能源是放在第一個而且看到安全安全能源又跟安全有關係地緣策略又跟能源有關係然後你能源轉型的過昨天的當中我就一直跟你強調這個要有生殖能的一個思考結果您寫的這個能源轉型裡頭我沒有看到生殖能三個字耶"},{"start":10797.071,"end":10806.821,"text":"你還是停留在光電跟風電還有地熱地熱還有一大堆人在質疑耶我這不是要你思考什麼你要說多元思考結果真正能夠解決三個問題農民問題 環境問題 發電問題"},{"start":10810.851,"end":10826.763,"text":"叫生殖能而且可以迴避三生的一個衝突結果你們就沒有放在這裡頭難以理解這個示範計畫本來就有在推動沒有 我說你沒有放在這個能源轉型的重點嘛"},{"start":10828.329,"end":10846.546,"text":"那個文件的部分需要的時候你們要標榜出來說你們政策上有這一個目標啊明明有7GW的一個能量的空間為什麼不發展為什麼要發展那一種受到社會爭議跟衝突沒有問題"},{"start":10847.625,"end":10856.341,"text":"那個文件就是我們那個策略上的這個文件說明示範策略目標它基本上的特性就是一個穩定積載的電力來源"},{"start":10859.541,"end":10881.018,"text":"風電跟電 跟光電又不一樣風電跟光電有風才有電欸有光才有電欸這機載電力的來源這是最穩定的24小時就可以發電了你不用就很奇怪 難以理解嘛有啦 那我昨天也跟委員報告過現在我們給他的等多價格幾乎是最高的價格其次啦 重點你有沒有要發展的啊"},{"start":10881.979,"end":10897.596,"text":"有那么多可能性为什么不发展本席在提醒你这个我跟你讲这个最有potential的方式你不处理而且本席也创造出了一个模式上次也邀请了郭智慧部长去看明年一季要运转这明明可以扩大减少争议而且解决很多问题"},{"start":10898.854,"end":10921.011,"text":"部長麻煩你慎重思考一下好不好好把它列為主要的綠能發展的項目之一可以嗎好謝謝那另外一個部分那個部長下鄉說明這非常重要是我講實在話今天綠能太陽光天會落到這種地步老實說除了有人過度的渲染"},{"start":10921.852,"end":10943.365,"text":"刻意的造謠有關係但是本身我們在推動政策的時候也要檢討第一個有違法事件第二個太過於衝量所以造成翻車超車的結果我們要好好思考一下過度KPI的狀況就產生很多的問題最後主席我再最後一個問題還有一個部分這個業務可能你還不清楚在去年10月的時候本席就有去會看過"},{"start":10944.386,"end":10970.439,"text":"所屬地的這個台南標準基地它剛好在台南火車站的正對面那邊最黃金的地帶卻佔一個冷衙門這本來可以成為啊台南市的這個博物館的所在地你們也都同意了我也去協助國有財產署去找了結果呢你們不是說不同意這個不符合需要不然就說這地點有長波用 預算過高講到半天根本在拖嘛"},{"start":10971.721,"end":10979.691,"text":"要不要改嘛憑什麼一個雅門站了數十年那個台南的一個黃金地段就在火車站前面根本沒有那需要性啊"},{"start":10981.987,"end":11006.576,"text":"要不要請標準局說明一下謝謝委員我想標準局在台南分局我們有辦理當地還是有辦理業務的需求那去年委員這個建議以後其實我們有積極在配合文化部還有地方政務的規劃我想我們會積極來配合文化部跟地方政務的整體評估規劃那部長我要你一句話你同不同意搬遷"},{"start":11007.236,"end":11036.15,"text":"抱歉因為這個案子我的確我沒有瞭解我回去瞭解一下好不好瞭解一下啦其實對台南市太不公平了啦好不好好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝郭國文委員郭國文委員敬禮謝謝謝謝來接下來我們請王美惠委員王美惠王美惠委員不在現場我們繼續請牛許廷委員請做巡檔"},{"start":11041.309,"end":11043.431,"text":"謝謝主席 這個勞動部經濟部有請我們請工部長跟勞動部"},{"start":11054.62,"end":11068.617,"text":"你好部長官今天本席提公司法跟商業登記法的修正這個內容部長了解嗎我知道我們希望提升一下這個各界的勞動意識因為這個台灣"},{"start":11071.5,"end":11090.675,"text":"八十幾萬家的公司登記其中相對小一人可以成立的有限公司就佔了六十幾萬家那現有商業這個行號等等登記的家數總共是九十九萬五千多家啦那其實絕大多數都是所謂的微型企業嘛那微型企業實務上在運作的時候常常出現"},{"start":11091.676,"end":11115.635,"text":"因為開設的門檻很低 速度很快這個三五個人就可以上路但相對來講在這個前期的準備過程中他除了硬性要件 資本啊 基本人力等等之外好像也就沒有其他的他其實衍生出了很多後續的勞動爭議嘛也就是這個老闆不見得很了解勞基法規範的內容後來就跟自己僱用的員工產生了各式各樣的一個摩擦這部長了解這個事嗎"},{"start":11117.112,"end":11139.597,"text":"我知道委員的提議的內涵就很多人這是一個過去的習慣嘛就是說當初大家這個黑手變老闆對不對變投家那很多時候是大家講好就好啦對不對以和為貴這當然是一種社會氛圍但是實際上勞動的法規一直在前進一直在進步那事實上這個這個中央社啊"},{"start":11140.157,"end":11163.327,"text":"去年8月勞基法40週年的報導裡面其實也寫了很多嘛就是雇主不見得熟悉法規法規的宣導力量不足夠特別是針對中小企業的部分很多的勞資正義的調解實務現場中小企業組根本不清楚勞動法律然後或者是用過去的觀念來談這個事所以啊這個目前全國違反勞動基準法什麼沒有給付加班費超時加班這個全額工資"},{"start":11164.407,"end":11182.473,"text":"特休假出行紀錄等等都是好幾千件的這樣子一個勞資糾紛每一個勞資糾紛他都要走漫長的調解等等的一些流程那其實造成很大的這個社會的負擔甚至是司法資源的一些浪費所以大家都討論這件事情希望可以從根源解決這件事情根源是什麼根源是大家都要了解勞動法令嘛"},{"start":11182.953,"end":11203.383,"text":"所以本席就提了公司法跟商業登記法的這樣一個修正過去我們都只是宣導宣導那宣導的時候他不聽你怎麼辦呢 對不對所以有一些硬性要件本席的修法參考了就業服務法嘛我們現在就業服務法講說我如果要徵聘外勞 對不對所以我就要特別針對勞動法律去上是因為我們害怕侵犯了外籍移工的各式各樣的勞動權益嘛"},{"start":11204.824,"end":11231.361,"text":"然後變成是 欸 針對移工的時候他是有保障的 針對本國勞工沒有啊然後本國勞工的各式各樣的勞資爭議還是一直發生來 請問經濟部 勞動部對於這樣子的一個狀況有沒有什麼具體的解方跟想法 請我先跟委員報告齁目前我們的做法其實在公司設立的那個後面我們都會通知他我們會主動把那個主管機關編制的一些勞動權益的一些相關資料我們會提供網址讓他去查"},{"start":11232.506,"end":11252.772,"text":"那這個部分我覺得就是說因為這些勞動法規一直有一些新的那我們就會主動告訴那個新設立的公司要去留意這一塊所以就是所謂我剛講的宣導來經濟部如果我們今天要修正相關的一些法規你們見解是什麼不好意思對不起那個如果要修正相關的法規的話你們現在的見解是什麼"},{"start":11254.003,"end":11278.203,"text":"根文報告勞動部這邊做法過去其實我們有開會討論過確實我們也認為說新界雇主確實要了解相關法規但是因為我們確實沒有辦法我們的勞政機關沒有辦法觸及到新雇主所以我們後來有邀集到相關的部會還有地方政府來討論然後我們也經濟部這邊也協助我們就是只要有人登記都會把相關的這個訊息提供給他們"},{"start":11278.783,"end":11307.17,"text":"然後也包含了我們的一些依化的一些資料也包含了剛剛您說的課程的部分然後就是希望他們能夠就是登記的同時也去上這些課程這是目前的做法對 所以現在問題來了剛剛勞動部也講嘛說我勞政系統我不見得能夠管到雇主嘛因為你商業登記公司成立都是在經濟部的管轄範圍之內嘛那這個界面要來怎麼做整合所以我們才希望體育法來說你要開設公司之前我要有一定的比如說勞動的講習或者是你要有更強強比較強制的一些取得規範"},{"start":11307.87,"end":11336.365,"text":"那當然我知道站在經濟部的立場你會希望這個可能會增加登記公司的門檻嘛他可能會降低一定的效率他有一定的成本在這過程中本席要求我們可以接受一個折衷的方案可以有一個漸進式的方向但本席不接受的是我們就照宣導就好因為實務上來講宣導的狀況就是成效不彰嘛我就花一點點時間講一個故事啦這本席選區就有遇過啊微型企業做蛋糕的啊蛋糕因為他不知道要投保就業保險因為五人以下不用勞保嘛"},{"start":11336.445,"end":11363,"text":"但要保就業保險對不對勞基法明文規定他不知道勞工知道反過來他賠一大筆錢所以對於雇主來講不瞭解勞動法令不純然只是保障勞工啊某一些層面也是避免雇主一直被開罰嘛所以他其實是對於勞僱雙方都有保障你多瞭解總是好事嘛才不會踩到地雷所以我才希望說商天法院公司法裡面有做一些這樣的配套那我講你講說如果講說一定要講習會浪費很多時間你參考一下就業服務法的精神他叫線上講習嘛"},{"start":11364.02,"end":11379.627,"text":"線上把相關容易觸犯彩雷的熱點聽完做個簡單的測驗 通過了就通過了也不失為一個辦法嘛來經濟部現在你們對於這個法條的修正有沒有什麼特別的意見或者是方向 可以參考的剛剛委員報告齁其實剛剛就是勞動部的長官也有提到"},{"start":11380.808,"end":11401.227,"text":"沒有辦法觸及到這些新設立所以我們現在是會把新設立之後我主動我就是通知公司所在地或商業所在地的勞動主管機關那我們也會跟勞動部這邊只要拿到這個新設立的名單我們就直接去請勞動部那邊或者是我們這邊也可以來協助去接洽這些新設立的公司來上勞動講習的一個課程"},{"start":11402.748,"end":11422.158,"text":"我跟你講現在這樣子就越搞越複雜了嘛對不對這個我們要看等勞政機關的這個東西然後又要叫到地方政府踢來踢去就麻煩了啦部長有沒有更好的方案沒關係我們今天時間比較有限啦好不好明天可能要做法條討論的時候我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好你要提出具體的方案讓這個東西至少是往前進的這我也要再次提醒除了避免"},{"start":11422.458,"end":11451.926,"text":"他不是登記前的門檻跟條件希望他登記還是簡便但是登記完以後我們會讓他更多的information希望他去不管是線上上課也好或是等等一些我只擔心單純的提供information是不夠的啦因為他沒有一定的要件的時候他去看了就算了嘛或者是根本就沒看要不然現在不會有那麼多的糾紛我提醒你沒關係機制怎麼設定我們還有一點時間因為明天才要進到法條的討論我希望經濟部也好勞動部也好要提出具體的方案可以讓這個東西至少是往前進的可以嗎"},{"start":11453.441,"end":11467.466,"text":"好辛苦了谢谢好谢谢谢谢那我们也请主管机关单位方案明天我们讨论的时候再提出来来谢谢接下来我们请黄国昌委员请做寻答谢谢主席麻烦有请经济部部长台电总经理好我们请两位谢谢黄总经理"},{"start":11486.894,"end":11500.204,"text":"黃委員好兩位好 直接的關係 直接切入正題就之前我一直在追蹤一些相關的弊案 2020年的時候"},{"start":11501.158,"end":11518.821,"text":"我揭露我們那個時候可能是內機內控出現嚴重問題的大同公司搞了一堆狗皮倒灶的事情有貪污的有行賄的有圍標的有詐素得標的搞了半天那個是2020年那個時候就公開揭露了"},{"start":11519.779,"end":11538.6,"text":"拖了很久啦2024年台北地方法院做判決判決到現在還沒確定啦判決到現在還沒確定不過判決出來的結果大概貪污洗錢妨礙投票等等都已經一審被判有罪那也一直拖拖到2025年5月24號因為公共工程委員會"},{"start":11539.901,"end":11564.64,"text":"可能有一些程序他要進行判決還沒有確定但公共工程委員會該做的事情他也是做了就宣布他從今年5月24號接下來要停權三年那個時候大同公司遭工程會停權三年了以後他的電力事業群還特別發了重訊開了記者會說接下來可能沒有辦法再參與政府表案"},{"start":11566.089,"end":11592.669,"text":"那我們持續在追蹤發現大龍公司其實遭停權影響好像也不是很大他也是持續取得政府標案其中有兩件是台電的因為依照政府採購法的規定有特殊需求的時候經過上級機關核准那就雖然是停權了那還是繼續讓他用第一個問題是請教一下經濟部經濟部核准的特殊需要是什麼"},{"start":11594.253,"end":11616.194,"text":"因為這是上級機關許可所以這個不是台電的問題就是經濟部的問題你要了解一下是不是沒有關係因為時間的關係我不要占人家的時間部長跟總經理都看到了嘛把你們怎麼上簽的怎麼准的公文能夠回覆給我一個禮拜之內可以嗎"},{"start":11617.931,"end":11638.356,"text":"這個沒有問題啦原則上是這可以嗎這件的話我大概所知道的是如果因為最近的那個電機類的設備啊在全球大家都在搶啊所以設備的那個採購啊都有延宕所以呢所以停權也沒有關係劣跡斑斑的賞賞也沒有關係"},{"start":11639.212,"end":11664.883,"text":"其實這一件我確實情形我不知道但是如果是沒有關係所以我給你時間回去瞭解第二個第二個這個是有經過經濟部點頭的這個經濟部要說明你為什麼開了這個後門讓一個被停權三年的公司不用被停權這個我很狐疑第二件就更離譜了第二件事連報上級機關都沒有遵循"},{"start":11666.171,"end":11690.034,"text":"把上級機關沒有准許來看一下這個是採購機關是台電南部發電廠得標的廠商是大同股份有限公司高雄分公司那我看了以後我就覺得很無意大同公司都被停權了經濟部也沒有核准為什麼他還可以得標總經理知道嗎這個是上個月大概前兩個禮拜發生的事10月23號的標案"},{"start":11693.463,"end":11718.145,"text":"這個標案我所瞭解是這樣子啦它有些標案是延續性的就是等於是連續好幾年那101條款只是針對新的標案不能交貴這個如果是說已經是新的我可能去瞭解一下好 你們一樣回去瞭解一下這個要給大家一個答案啦不要讓大家誤會說好像明明被停權了"},{"start":11719.229,"end":11730.09,"text":"是關係特別好還幫他開後門甚至上級機關都沒有准許上級機關沒有准許這個我查過了跟下面這個標案不太一樣就連經濟部都不知道"},{"start":11731.384,"end":11751.252,"text":"那個總公司啊 遭到庭權分控是當然不能取得標外 這法律上面相一定的解釋啦你們回去查清楚了以後 用公文回覆給我這兩個是什麼狀況好不好第二個問題 排言率呢 我追了非常的久啦那當然這也不是 我也不曉得該怎麼講 這到底是誰的鍋"},{"start":11754.253,"end":11768.785,"text":"之前經濟部部長王美花一樣在備詢台上面做了很多保證說做了很多改革但是全體國人看到的是這家公司拿納稅的錢在虧然後錢全部進了民進黨權貴的口袋"},{"start":11770.928,"end":11796.388,"text":"那相關的司法訴訟 刑事責任的追究 那要追究陳啟玉他自己到底要怎麼面對那這個是他自己刑事責任的問題 那我關心的是從納稅人的角度 台研綠能一開始為了協助國家發展綠能 話講得很好聽 當地居民大家都支持結果搞了半天以後 發現不僅僅是破壞環境 破壞生態 還在胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":11797.488,"end":11825.188,"text":"虧一虧納稅人的然後錢放到綠色權貴的口袋那下一個問題是這個事情現在要怎麼收尾因為我看財報我看財報到今年Q2的財報出來他的股東權益是負值股東權益是負值是什麼意思我相信部長應該很清楚部長看懂財報絕對沒有問題那股東權益是負值那這家公司要不要依公司法宣告破產請教部長"},{"start":11826.482,"end":11844.249,"text":"我可能要了解一下 我們國營是有人在嗎 還是怎麼樣來 列一下公司法第211條公司虧損達10收資本2分之1 董事會應該最後一次股東會報告 這沒問題但是公司的資產不足抵償所付的債務的時候 董事會應期宣告破產"},{"start":11845.27,"end":11871.325,"text":"那如果代表公司的董事違反前兩項的規定的話這個還有處罰的規定所以現在台研綠能現在的計畫是什麼錢要繼續丟下去要辦增資嗎報委我想我們也一併好不好因為本來就要提供剛剛那個兩個案子這個案子到底要怎麼走因為大家很關心嘛因為第一個我們是法治國家嘛特別這個是范工股的公司現在搞到"},{"start":11872.245,"end":11899.29,"text":"已經資產沒有辦法處理負債了那有沒有要依法宣告破產還是說沒有要依法宣告破產打算要繼續投錢下去這個事情我相信台灣社會大眾很關心啊國會也應該監督這個部分到底要怎麼走一併書面回覆可以嗎好的好的好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請呂玉玲委員請做詢答"},{"start":11909.291,"end":11924.599,"text":"謝謝主席 請經濟部的部長跟勞動部的王副師長好 我們請兩位勞動部議員好部長"},{"start":11926.334,"end":11953.087,"text":"在9月26日的時候你的腿可以嗎你那裡有一個高架椅沒關係你可以坐高架椅不會不會好OK請繼續在9月26日的最低工資審議會已經提出來了最低工資現在調整為29500元那請問一下部長您的態度是不是對此次的調漲基本工資有疑義呢"},{"start":11954.124,"end":11966.097,"text":"沒有 我們支持後來跨部會也都好 支持那支持的話本席就要請教部長那你要對這個調漲這個基本工資沒有意見但是現在因為對等關稅的衝擊你現在用齊頭式的這個調漲這個基本工資的話對產業的受到這個關稅的衝擊的並沒有辦法去彌補他們"},{"start":11975.768,"end":12004.761,"text":"那这方面的话我们是不是可以比照疫情当下我们的补贴方式或者把它扩大这整个额度还有就是说什么时候可以公告哪些产业可以纳入申请报告委员因为最低公司是明年才开始才开始实施那先规划对所以我们还有一点时间可以跟劳动部讨论劳动部讨论那你什么时候会提出来公布呢大概预计"},{"start":12005.957,"end":12030.605,"text":"導動部 跟委員報告我們目前跟這個你規劃會什麼時間出爐呢我們跟這個目前跟這個產發署正在就是研議這個相關的一些作業所以你們會補助嗎 對會不會補助 會補助的話就是討論的就是說可以比照疫情或更擴大這個方式你現在討論現在是11月那你什麼時候會把這個討論的方案規劃出來"},{"start":12033.246,"end":12058.989,"text":"我們目前跟經濟部這邊的討論呢因為我們那個最低工資的這個就是新調整的這個這個方案是明年1月1號開始實施所以還有不到兩個月的時間嗎那你什麼時候出爐還沒把定出來嗎這麼緊迫欸你剛剛講了1月份就要執行了是因為我們現在目前跟這個就是產發署這邊我們就這兩個月就是你沒有時間表給我嗎"},{"start":12060.029,"end":12076.522,"text":"要多久時間對所以我們會盡快來處理一個月好不好一個月你把這個所有如何規劃什麼時候可以開始執行然後哪些產業可以納入這個補貼的這個方案一個月一個月給我好嗎"},{"start":12079.38,"end":12102.403,"text":"可以啦好那就一個月一定要公佈出哪些產業可以正式來納入那討論到這個基本工資它補貼的金額啦或者是補貼方式都要更加的明確那第二個本期想討論的就是今天的公私法這足跡總出他們的統計裡面就是說我們公私法的"},{"start":12105.927,"end":12123.064,"text":"23535之一条的第二条里面特别有提到就是说如果公司有盈余获利的时候我们分配员工的酬劳的比例跟定额这个方面的话不能低于同业平均的加薪比例这个方案"},{"start":12123.644,"end":12149.028,"text":"那尤其是現在在實施這個改善的這個低薪的環境來提高我們國人產業競爭力這是非常有需要的但是在以公司法執行的當下能不能分配這個員工的酬勞還要看董事會三分之二人出席二分之一的人同意所以在這個情況之下會不會變成一個空談它如果不發下去怎麼辦"},{"start":12151.881,"end":12171.466,"text":"現在上市櫃公司是有啦 已經有規定上市櫃有 就是非上市 沒有上市的他不發就不發嗎 股東會就否決掉咧不是 我們鼓勵薪資上漲 適用中小企業發展條例現在有一些稅務上的優惠跟鼓勵 希望可以加薪"},{"start":12172.666,"end":12195.606,"text":"並沒有訂出當然另外就是剛剛提到的最低工資每年都會調漲那現在已經連續10年都在調漲最低工資跟這個員工的酬勞有一樣嗎就是他的所得至少都是他的所得嘛但是你要訂出標準你要補助他們的話董事會要訂出到底幾%這幾%也沒有明確性耶"},{"start":12197.894,"end":12226.213,"text":"副市長因為現在提到的就是說同業的加薪比例同業的加薪比例這個範圍同業是大概是什麼樣的同業就是因為太空泛了所以我們公司把它就制定一個標準的一個模式一個制度出來你看你要給他們發的那個酬勞幾%也沒有明確性說你公司賺多少錢累計的話你賺了一千萬你發多少一億你發多少這個比例要出來不然的話"},{"start":12226.873,"end":12255.578,"text":"董事會就決定了 不發都可以了原來2351就有規定張誠要明訂他的一定的定額或是比率這對上市公司 那非上市公司呢非上市 原來現在公司法就有所有的公司是適用所以這個比率他在張誠要明訂那明訂的話其實他不能不執行怎麼樣明訂 定%還定會不會發嗎定%上去他就一定要發還是董事會決定嘛"},{"start":12256.7,"end":12284.491,"text":"趴數它章程我們現在是章程裡面就定它多少要去分派酬勞這個在現在公司發不發呢它一定要發對因為董事會它必須要去那對於非上市的呢我現在講的是非上市的我們這個公司法是上市跟非上市都是都是用對那因為有法則說如果說公司不發的話員工可以去告這個公司但是應該是沒有人會去告告了我工作可能也不保了"},{"start":12285.231,"end":12309.518,"text":"所以我们的制度要更加的明确好不好那经济部对这方面的话你们有做一个统计吗是说那个章程明定吗针对民间公司订定分派员工酬劳的比例跟定额经济部有没有做过统计我们那个在公司登记这边他们已经有一些来就修了我们现在应该是已经有达到九成以上的章程都已经有定了"},{"start":12310.174,"end":12331.74,"text":"是 所以都一定會發了只要有酬勞就一定會發它訂在上面它就一定要發是 好那因為本席會這樣子提的話就是因為我們看到公司有盈餘的時候或是勞工的這個低薪問題我們都一塊一塊要來解決這個途徑尤其是兩者沒有相對的很明顯的這個來對比的話公司的"},{"start":12332.6,"end":12350.207,"text":"分配員額的酬勞的比例跟訂的會失衡啦如果你沒有更明確的話他會失衡去那尤其是企業他可以自由訂定這個象徵的比例甚至你說他們章程一定會訂可是我們跟我們的反應說章程有的還是沒有"},{"start":12350.667,"end":12365.456,"text":"很明確的出來 所以我希望你們能夠嚴格去執行 去了解他們訂定的尤其是對非上市的公司才能讓我們董事會在決議當中不要否決掉 我不發了訂了也不發 董事會有這權利嗎"},{"start":12367.847,"end":12387.69,"text":"一定要發嘛所以員工都有這個爭議因為這資訊不夠公開透明員工不知道到底董事會開了我是發幾趴我是什麼時候會發員工都不知道是否可以說更明確說他一定要公告出來要不然的話員工的福利他們自己無法享受到可不可以"},{"start":12388.567,"end":12407.842,"text":"我們會再加強去而且這個法規面尤其是我們現在正在修那個公司法的修正草案我希望我們這個立法院來審議的時候我們可以讓我們的行政院趕快把這版本送進來好不好來保障我們員工的權益可以嗎你們還沒送進來吧"},{"start":12409.639,"end":12427.249,"text":"公司法沒有要修正的版本所以照原例嘛所以今天才會跟你討論啊這些都是問題啊在執行辦法你們要修的還是要去修嘛才能夠務實的去保障我們員工的權益好不好希望你們能夠送進來了謝謝"},{"start":12435.461,"end":12446.23,"text":"好 接下來我們請洪孟楷委員 洪孟楷 洪孟楷委員我們再請林倩琦委員 林倩琦 林倩琦委員不在場我們請蔡議員 請做巡檔謝謝主席那我們是不是有請經濟部長我們請工部長"},{"start":12468.366,"end":12488.672,"text":"蔡委員好部長我看到我們經濟部今年的針對明年預算的一些計畫那其中有一個是叫做加速矽光子技術自主及促進產業鏈的一個成型那我們知道未來就要像台積電的先進封裝讓COAS事實上"},{"start":12489.592,"end":12507.311,"text":"就這個光通訊一直整合大概是接下來整個AI的半導體的下一個階段所以矽光子的一個技術一直整合怎麼把光跟電"},{"start":12509.252,"end":12533.731,"text":"變成一個傳輸傳導的一個功能所以大概這一塊是未來產業已經看到了產業的需求但是人才的需求似乎還沒有跟上所以我們這一次有一個說要促進產業鏈的成形中我們要強調的就是要有一個產官的一個演的一個合作那我想經濟部在這一塊你們未來要扮演怎樣的角色呢"},{"start":12534.944,"end":12547.159,"text":"包委員事實上我們現在剛剛提到的這個聯盟的部分我們就是怎麼樣透過這個工研院來協助這個Semi它成立西光石聯盟對"},{"start":12548.697,"end":12563.485,"text":"然後技術端來講的話就是開發出這個高速矽光石的關鍵技術尤其是在矽光的晶片還有這個封裝的基板的部分也推動這個整個實驗室藉由我們有一個Aplus計畫來協助廠商開發"},{"start":12566.086,"end":12593.147,"text":"那人才的部分國科會他會負責整個學界人才培養大概200人那我們藉由這個法輪計轉培養人才那學的部分還有學校的部分中正大學或者是其他學校也希望開闊這個我知道我們中正大學正在努力在爭取因為目前大概研究單位都是在公園院大學端這一塊大概是未來需要補足的所以中正大學現在已經有高度的"},{"start":12594.228,"end":12615.106,"text":"努力中正在籌劃說他們也希望可以把這個矽光子未來從微學程到這個畢業學位學程甚至未來朝向整個學院的一個推展那我想這部分經濟部未來可不可以在關鍵的一些專案中然後來支持中正大學往這樣來努力"},{"start":12615.726,"end":12625.99,"text":"可以啦好那所以這部分來拜託部長我想未來我可能會跟中分大學我們會找教育部找國科會那經濟部這邊也可以來技術師這邊適度的給我們這個大力的幫忙這樣好嗎是的"},{"start":12632.284,"end":12643.459,"text":"那第二個我想要跟部長聊一下這個當然跟台電是不是台電今天總經理有到那我想要請教一下就是說因為這一次丹納斯風災請總經理好"},{"start":12647.399,"end":12671.472,"text":"這個丹納斯風災那大概我們嘉義這裡大概是電線感這個倒的是非常的多所以大概這一次可以看出了所謂這個電纜的韌性中這個電線感的地下化是一個很關鍵的一個一個要推動的那我想要請教我們王總這邊那我們這個電感的地下化目前台電怎麼規劃呢台電在嘉義這個地方"},{"start":12676.277,"end":12701.45,"text":"已经有做初步的规划了第一个这个规划已经报到经济部这边了那经济部正在核准当中那至于说整个的细部规划我们还是同步在进行就是针对变电所出口那个比较重要的那些亏限那我们现在先进行那个做下地的设计的这个阶段那正在进行当中"},{"start":12702.499,"end":12723.371,"text":"有正在推動像一些主要幹線像台17線台19線這些主要的一個幹線以及一些關鍵的基礎設施對關鍵基礎設施比方我們事實上我在地方也有跟我們這個南區處的處長討論比方說像公所地方公所的周邊"},{"start":12724.372,"end":12751.105,"text":"我們知道說每一個鄉鎮公所就是它的一個行政的中心它遇到災難的時候它也是一個防災的一個指揮中心所以如果公所周邊可以讓它電纜地下的話可以確保說機械在公所酒瓶這裡的單位它可能會有護證可能會有一些清潔隊機械在周邊這邊可以讓它的電纜的韌性相對的比較強韌這件事情應該也是都"},{"start":12752.273,"end":12775.725,"text":"是 没有错 跟委员报告就是说以嘉义地区来讲设计的理念 如您提到的把一些比较重要的单位 机关机关的周边 周边这边可以优先来推动让它地下化所以这个我认为是很重要那因为这一次是特别预算所以特别预算基本上我觉得"},{"start":12776.673,"end":12798.543,"text":"原本啦原本我感覺應該要再多一點如果你說嘉義這邊要推動因為丹納斯我們跟台南是最大的受災戶可是後來看起來是這個周少增多了啦大家比較多人都要進來分配這個預算所以事實上可以做的相對少很多所以我會覺得說"},{"start":12800.024,"end":12806.809,"text":"這部分可能中間 叫中間先走然後這個讓人民才會馬上有感這樣好不好是 因為"},{"start":12808.017,"end":12834.816,"text":"台电真正做地下化的经费才80亿那80亿分配到各个县当然相对于大家是少很多当然是嘉义跟台南是因为重灾区是重点地区所以是相对比较多一点只是因为经费确实有限这我可以理解还是没有办法满足各县区的需求比方说我们现在台61县在布袋新闻那里正在做这个闸道"},{"start":12835.656,"end":12854.584,"text":"台61線的閘道事實上它就會涉及到它地面下的道路也會更新那我認為說在地面道路更新的時候就要搭配電纜地下化這樣的話你們可以省下很多路修費所以這個閘道的一個更新大概在這兩三個禮拜它就會發佈"},{"start":12857.225,"end":12881.354,"text":"所以我覺得這個你們可以去對接一下 跟高工局對接一下說他要不然他們的路開始要修理得對 你們這兩大對的地下化氣 你們的價錢很多錢啦這部分我再回去我們嘉義區處處長說一下 我相信他也會接受啦 我還是要提醒因為有一些重大的陸修工程 事實上台電大對的 這樣你們可以比較省錢"},{"start":12883.268,"end":12884.37,"text":"好那謝謝台電那也謝謝我們經濟部好感謝"},{"start":12891.687,"end":12903.611,"text":"好 謝謝蔡議員委員的尋答謝謝 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來我們請賴世保委員不在現場請何欣淳委員不在現場請麥毓貞委員不在現場請劉建國委員不在現場請林楚英委員不在現場請蘇清泉委員不在現場"},{"start":12919.657,"end":12936.196,"text":"因為我們剛剛已經有說一開始已經有說我們今天的會議就到今天只有到巡打所以我們時間就巡打結束再休息接下來羅明財委員我們接下來葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員不在現場OK"},{"start":12938.599,"end":12962.722,"text":"好 那么我们登记发言的除不在现场之外其余均已发言完毕 询答结束那由委员邱志伟委员林黛华委员杨琼英委员所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复的部分请相关单位一周之内以书面答复并复职本会委员令要求期限者从期锁定"},{"start":12963.763,"end":12971.503,"text":"那本日议程讨论三案均已寻讨完毕所谓的法案明日继续进行审查谢谢大家现在休息谢谢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}