{"error":false,"id":["170058"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170058,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170058","日期":"2026-06-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-22,26-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[22,26],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會","社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-18T10:02:07+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-18T10:13:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ac5d42f4fd98837a50014654d71d4e57552618e67150a9fc5dfbff722aff1dc512974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:02:07 - 10:13:09","會議時間":"2026-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員林月琴等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第十一條、第十二條及第三十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員黃仁等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員羅智強等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)委員林倩綺等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員廖先翔等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)委員王育敏等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第四十三條及第五十二條條文修正      草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十九)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十)委員李彥秀等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n【進行詢答及逐條審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":4.2497187499999995,"end":5.16096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":5.32971875,"end":5.886593750000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":10.020968750000002,"end":10.03784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":10.03784375,"end":10.274093750000002,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":10.274093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":12.36659375,"end":13.058468750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":13.63221875,"end":17.05784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":17.96909375,"end":20.770343750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":21.52971875,"end":22.457843750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":22.84596875,"end":24.28034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":25.039718750000002,"end":28.667843750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":28.92096875,"end":35.41784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":36.37971875,"end":41.23971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":41.931593750000005,"end":44.22659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":44.91846875,"end":49.187843750000006,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":50.23409375,"end":51.65159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":55.87034375,"end":56.52846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":56.95034375,"end":57.40596875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":58.064093750000005,"end":63.88596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":64.81409375,"end":65.53971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":66.02909375,"end":67.19346875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":68.15534375,"end":68.81346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":69.50534375000001,"end":70.23096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":70.83846875,"end":71.76659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":72.72846875,"end":73.97721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":74.93909375,"end":75.63096875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":76.82909375,"end":77.85846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":78.63471875,"end":80.03534375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":81.67221875,"end":83.02221875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":84.28784375000001,"end":85.50284375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":86.29596875,"end":87.93284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":88.97909375,"end":89.85659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":90.83534375,"end":92.43846875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":93.48471875,"end":93.95721875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":94.90221875,"end":95.86409375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":97.24784375,"end":98.02409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":98.10846875,"end":100.48784375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":102.54659375,"end":102.96846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":102.96846875,"end":103.47471875000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":105.76971875000001,"end":106.79909375000001,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":107.15346875,"end":107.57534375,"speaker_score":0.921},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"羅委員智強","start":109.00971875,"end":109.19534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":109.98846875000001,"end":110.00534375000001,"speaker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已經不是個案了當我們教育現場系統性崩壞到這種程度老師今天要面臨霸凌的恐懼面臨檢舉的爛數面臨所謂的特權的介入各種的壓力"},{"start":299.073,"end":309.38,"text":"的時候當他對教育現場產生恐懼的時候我說過受害的不只是老師吧部長"},{"start":310.959,"end":331.285,"text":"是 當然我也跟委員補充說明南韓的這一部片子當時事實上南韓的教師團體也認為它並非南韓的一個教育現場他們也希望不要拍這樣一個影片某種程度它當然有一種提醒部長 我跟你講你講的我也都看過"},{"start":334.429,"end":361.53,"text":"處理方式那戲劇化的手法當然不可能啦不可能是這戲劇化手法但是它引起迴響不是因為那戲劇化的手法我就講嘛今天我那天質詢次長我就講一個老師只因為在聯絡簿上寫了一句是不是數學要多練習結果就被家長瘋狂投訴瘋狂投訴"},{"start":365.506,"end":392.533,"text":"然後抱歉啊這劇情一模一樣啊跟委員報告就這一個委員所舉的例子我覺得那是學校裡面應該要挺身而出支持老師因為老師我告訴你啊誰不想挺身而出支持老師啊我直接問啦很多老師也都反映啊你現在老師的所謂的社會的尊嚴"},{"start":394.079,"end":420.93,"text":"在我們今天很多一些錯誤的結構跟制度體系之下你不要講是老師 學校當你的制度本身設計出了問題的時候你就造成今天教育現場上老師面臨各式各樣的恐懼啊就像說我看到部長說你們有做一個改革匿名檢舉不會見到不會接校事會議嘛 對不對然後呢 所以說"},{"start":422.725,"end":449.918,"text":"你們說有82%的檢舉案件進入校事會修正後降到22%嘛對不對是可是我要問啊請問匿名檢舉現在真的不受理嗎我們的新的辦法也感謝委員支持我目前是這樣一個執行但是地方會不會因為有特殊的一些案例這也是我們希望其實部長你剛剛回答就有保留了我當然支持今天"},{"start":452.281,"end":465.396,"text":"你要相關的檢舉你起碼也應該要負原則嘛是對心智不受理那教育部我知道你也拿出來做一個改革主要回應可是啊還是會進到考核會啊不是嗎"},{"start":466.357,"end":483.205,"text":"考核會是來自因為老師他確實行為有疏失但是有一些考核會他就是可能只是口頭的一個提醒我要講的是什麼我要講的是今天你光匿名檢舉這件事情你現在制度體系之下它還是存在"},{"start":484.105,"end":500.28,"text":"沒錯吧案例我不敢保證但是基本上我們制度的精神也感謝委員之前的支持那就是我們共同希望他往好的方向來走部長謝謝你啊我希望你從不敢保證在制度上讓他你敢保證"},{"start":501.53,"end":530.55,"text":"不是嗎你都認為這是一個對的方向我也支持啊是可是你不敢保證是因為結構制度上你還有沒做好沒有做足的地方啦那我們就來想辦法讓這制度做足嘛事實上我們可以看到今天我們今天為什麼再生的提醒步驟就是因為真的我覺得我們教育環境真的是已經受夠了已經受夠了民怨"},{"start":532.116,"end":552.538,"text":"老師的處境大家都知道受害不只是老師啦當老師都害怕的時候受害就是學生的受教權受害就是國家的未來而部長你就是老師最重要的後盾再來我想要講一下我們今天審查這個幼兒教育跟照顧法的第七條那"},{"start":555.302,"end":583.977,"text":"我相信部長應該也知道現在家長要找幼兒園其實都充滿焦慮因為它不只是教育的過程它是很多的焦慮跟壓力的集結收集資料參觀學校申請放榜然後補有沒有抽中要不要備案下一步怎麼辦這些都是我們今天家有幼兒家長的日常沒錯吧所以我知道部長你們有講一些理由"},{"start":585.157,"end":610.106,"text":"財政負擔是個理由可是呢今天只要是有少子化趨勢的國家都已經大多擴幅的來去改善今天幼兒教育減輕家長的壓力跟負擔台灣今天如果說生育率比10年前增加個一倍兩倍那我跟你講我覺得沒有這個案子"},{"start":611.368,"end":634.038,"text":"是嗎?不是啊我們比起十年前我們出生的人數是腰斬部長總知道吧那為什麼?因為就是對於家長來說的話那個負擔已經沉重到他們沒有辦法挺住啊一部分原因啦還有很多社會原因啦可是對政府來說我們能做的就是分擔他的壓力嘛這也是為什麼賴清德總統今天"},{"start":635.404,"end":660.483,"text":"他的所謂的要這個搶救少子化開出這麼多的支票開出這麼多的政策那其實就是因為已經見到我們今天十年出生人數腰斬的這種現象所以我認為今天對於說家有幼兒的家長我們今天這個修法的討論就是來當他們的後盾啦謝謝部長謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:11.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:12.630000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:12.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:13.630000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:13.630000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:14.630000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:12.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:31.069000+08:00","text":"部長，我唸一段話，請告訴我是誰講的：我不知道哥哥究竟承受了多少痛苦、多少絕望才會走上這一條路。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:32.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:42.177000+08:00","text":"有時候真的讓人忍不住思考，現今的制度是否真的有能力保護那些長年默默為社會奉獻的人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:43.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:02:55.968000+08:00","text":"一句輕易的指責、一場隨意的檢舉，外人看來只是程序，但對某些人來說卻可能是一點一滴壓垮生命的重量。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:02:57.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:03:04.047000+08:00","text":"部長知道這是誰說的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:03:04.047000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:03:05.168000+08:00","text":"請委員指導。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:03:05.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:03:26.856000+08:00","text":"上個月25號，高雄市1名資深的國小嚴姓教師墜樓身亡，他妹妹沉痛的發文，痛訴他哥哥所面臨到的惡劣教育現場一點一滴壓垮了他的生命。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:03:28.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:03:47.309000+08:00","text":"這就是今天在最前面為我們奉獻的老師們的處遇還有他們家人的心聲，看到這一段的心聲，我不知道部長作何感想？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:03:52.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:03:53.392000+08:00","text":"持平而論，我是非常難過的。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:03:54.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:11.512000+08:00","text":"是啊，人心是肉做的，不論誰看到這一段痛苦的心聲都會覺得難過，我想請教部長，這是個案嗎？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:11.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:31.651000+08:00","text":"我們不希望……當然某種程度希望他只是個案，但是我們更希望從體制去減少老師的壓力，也包含一些無謂的干擾，能夠讓校園中的老師回到他真正的專業，秉持他對教育的愛……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:31.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:35.113000+08:00","text":"我要告訴你，1年內就有3起基層教師墜樓輕生事件。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:39.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:50.786000+08:00","text":"我再跟你講一個更恐怖的統計數字，我要告訴部長教育現場到底有多惡劣，2021年教職員工自殺死亡人數是多少，您知道嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:50.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:53.728000+08:00","text":"請委員指導。8個人。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:53.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:04:56.510000+08:00","text":"2022年10個人，2023年你知道有多少人嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:04:56.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:05:15.437000+08:00","text":"達到19個人，從2021年的8人到2023的19人，暴增了一倍不止。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:05:17.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:05:34.772000+08:00","text":"我再問您另外一個數字，不知道您有沒有看到，臺師大學生會以及師資生聯合會上個月公布了一個針對師資培育生的調查數字，你知不知道有多少師資培育生認為教師現在是不受社會尊重的？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:05:36.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:05:40.088000+08:00","text":"七成，70.6%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:05:40.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:05:49.890000+08:00","text":"有多少師資培育生擔心將來執教會遭到投訴或面臨調查？八成。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:05:52.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:05:56.832000+08:00","text":"有34.9%的師資培育生明確表達不會投入教職。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:05:56.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:13.018000+08:00","text":"我用這個做開場，我想部長就能夠理解為什麼南韓的一齣戲劇在臺灣會引起這麼大的迴響，不知道部長看過沒有？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:14.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:15.479000+08:00","text":"我看了第一集。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:15.479000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:18.341000+08:00","text":"看了第一集啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:18.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:25.804000+08:00","text":"我是看完了，我看前5集的時候心裡想的是，這哪是南韓啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:27.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:33.848000+08:00","text":"它點出的教育現場問題不是南韓的教育現場問題，它點出的是臺灣的教育現場問題。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:36.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:40.462000+08:00","text":"為什麼這幾週大家持續關注教育現場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:41.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:06:45.785000+08:00","text":"光是從這個數字，部長就可以看出有多嚴重，已經不是個案了！","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:06:48.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:07:16.380000+08:00","text":"當我們的教育現場系統性地崩壞到這種程度，老師今天要面臨霸凌的恐懼，面臨檢舉的濫訴，面臨所謂特權的介入等各種壓力的時候，當他對教育現場產生恐懼的時候，我說過，受害的不只是老師吧？部長。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:07:18.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:07:35.824000+08:00","text":"當然，我也要跟委員補充說明，南韓的這部片子，當時南韓的教師團體也認為它並非南韓的教育現場，他們也希望不要拍攝這樣的影片，某種程度它當然是一種提醒……","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:07:36.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:07:49.255000+08:00","text":"部長，我跟你講，你講的我也都看過了，處理方式是戲劇化的手法，現實當然不可能，不可能用這種戲劇化的手法，而它之所以引起迴響也不是因為那種戲劇化的手法。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:07:50.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:08.330000+08:00","text":"我就講了嘛，那天我質詢次長，我就講了一個老師只因為在聯絡簿上寫了一句「是不是數學要多練習」，結果就被家長瘋狂投訴。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:12.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:14.667000+08:00","text":"抱歉啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:14.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:15.627000+08:00","text":"這個劇情可真的是一模一樣啊！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:16.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:25.329000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就這個委員所提的例子，我覺得那是學校裡應該要挺身而出支持老師的。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:25.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:26.209000+08:00","text":"因為老師……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:26.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:29.690000+08:00","text":"部長，我告訴你，誰不想挺身而出支持老師？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:31.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:08:56.125000+08:00","text":"我直接問了，很多老師也都反映，現在老師的社會尊嚴，在今天很多錯誤的結構跟制度體系之下，就別說是老師、學校了，當你制度本身的設計出問題的時候，就是造成今天教育現場上的老師要面臨各式各樣的恐懼。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:08:57.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:06.729000+08:00","text":"就像我看到部長說，你們有做改革，匿名檢舉不會進到校事會議嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:07.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:15.348000+08:00","text":"所以你們說有82%的檢舉案件進入校事會議，修正後降到22%，對不對？是。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:16.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:22.171000+08:00","text":"可是我要問，請問匿名檢舉現在是真的不受理嗎？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:23.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:32.115000+08:00","text":"感謝委員支持我們新的辦法，目前是這樣在執行，但是地方會不會因為有一些特殊的案例，這也是我們希望……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:32.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:34.757000+08:00","text":"部長，你剛剛的回答就有保留了！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:35.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:43.686000+08:00","text":"我當然支持，今天要有相關的檢舉，起碼也應該要負言責嘛！是。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:45.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:09:52.396000+08:00","text":"新制不受理，我知道教育部也拿出來作為改革的主要回應，可是還是會進到考核會啊，不是嗎？","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:09:53.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:00.360000+08:00","text":"會進考核會是來自老師的行為確實有疏失，但是有一些進考核會可能就是口頭的一個提醒……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:01.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:02.701000+08:00","text":"部長，我要講的是什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:02.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:10.185000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，今天光是匿名檢舉這件事情，在現在的制度體系之下，它還是存在啊！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:11.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:11.285000+08:00","text":"沒錯吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:12.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:21.775000+08:00","text":"案例我不敢保證，但是基於制度的精神，也感謝委員之前的支持，這就是我們共同希望它往好的方向走。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:22.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:29.391000+08:00","text":"部長，謝謝你，我希望你從「不敢保證」，在制度上讓它變成你「敢保證」，不是嗎？是。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:29.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:32.032000+08:00","text":"你都認為這是對的方向，我也支持啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:33.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:41.539000+08:00","text":"可是你不敢保證是因為在結構、制度上你還有沒有做好、沒有做足的地方，那我們就要想辦法把這個制度做足嘛！","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:43.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:47.623000+08:00","text":"事實上我們可以看到，我今天為什麼要再三地提醒部長？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:49.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:10:52.526000+08:00","text":"就是因為我真的覺得我們的教育環境已經受夠了啦！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:10:57.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:11:12.250000+08:00","text":"看到民怨、老師的處境，大家都知道受害的不只是老師，當老師都害怕的時候，受害的就是學生的受教權和國家的未來，而部長你就是老師最重要的後盾。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:11:13.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:11:46.935000+08:00","text":"再來我想要講一下，今天審查幼兒教育及照顧法的第七條，相信部長應該也知道現在家長要找幼兒園其實都充滿了焦慮，因為它不只是教育的過程，還是很多焦慮跟壓力的集結，包括蒐集資料、參觀學校、申請、放榜、候補、有沒有抽中、要不要備案、下一步怎麼辦，這些都是今天家有幼兒的家長日常，沒錯吧？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:11:48.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:09.043000+08:00","text":"我知道部長有講一些理由，財政負擔是個理由，可是今天只要是有少子化趨勢的國家，都已經大刀闊斧地改善了幼兒教育減輕家長的壓力跟負擔。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:09.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:18.768000+08:00","text":"臺灣今天的生育率如果比10年前增加了一倍、兩倍，我跟你講，就絕對不會有這個案子了，不是嗎？","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:20.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:22.650000+08:00","text":"跟10年前相比，我們出生的人數是腰斬耶！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:22.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:23.430000+08:00","text":"部長，你總知道吧！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:25.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:26.451000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:26.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:12:34.575000+08:00","text":"就是因為對家長來說，那個負擔已經沉重到他們沒有辦法挺住了，這是一部分的原因，還有很多社會的原因啦！","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"羅委員智強","start":"2026-06-18T10:12:35.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T10:13:07.483000+08:00","text":"可是對政府來說，我們能做的就是分擔大家的壓力，這就是為什麼賴清德總統今天為了搶救少子化要開出這麼多支票、推出這麼多政策，其實就是因為見到今天跟10年前的新生兒人數呈現腰斬的現象，所以我認為今天對於所有家有幼兒的家長來說，這個修法的討論就是來當他們後盾的，謝謝部長。謝謝。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T10:13:07.983000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:13:09.411571+08:00","text":"謝謝，請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T10:13:09.711571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T10:13:12.283000+08:00","text":"下一位請葛如鈞委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":246,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時2分）有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，我唸一段話，請告訴我是誰講的：我不知道哥哥究竟承受了多少痛苦、多少絕望才會走上這一條路。有時候真的讓人忍不住思考，現今的制度是否真的有能力保護那些長年默默為社會奉獻的人。一句輕易的指責、一場隨意的檢舉，外人看來只是程序，但對某些人來說卻可能是一點一滴壓垮生命的重量。部長知道這是誰說的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：請委員指導。"],["羅委員智強：上個月25號，高雄市1名資深的國小嚴姓教師墜樓身亡，他妹妹沉痛的發文，痛訴他哥哥所面臨到的惡劣教育現場一點一滴壓垮了他的生命。這就是今天在最前面為我們奉獻的老師們的處遇還有他們家人的心聲，看到這一段的心聲，我不知道部長作何感想？"],["鄭部長英耀：持平而論，我是非常難過的。"],["羅委員智強：是啊，人心是肉做的，不論誰看到這一段痛苦的心聲都會覺得難過，我想請教部長，這是個案嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們不希望……當然某種程度希望他只是個案，但是我們更希望從體制去減少老師的壓力，也包含一些無謂的干擾，能夠讓校園中的老師回到他真正的專業，秉持他對教育的愛……"],["羅委員智強：我要告訴你，1年內就有3起基層教師墜樓輕生事件。我再跟你講一個更恐怖的統計數字，我要告訴部長教育現場到底有多惡劣，2021年教職員工自殺死亡人數是多少，您知道嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：請委員指導。"],["羅委員智強：8個人。2022年10個人，2023年你知道有多少人嗎？達到19個人，從2021年的8人到2023的19人，暴增了一倍不止。我再問您另外一個數字，不知道您有沒有看到，臺師大學生會以及師資生聯合會上個月公布了一個針對師資培育生的調查數字，你知不知道有多少師資培育生認為教師現在是不受社會尊重的？七成，70.6%。有多少師資培育生擔心將來執教會遭到投訴或面臨調查？八成。有34.9%的師資培育生明確表達不會投入教職。我用這個做開場，我想部長就能夠理解為什麼南韓的一齣戲劇在臺灣會引起這麼大的迴響，不知道部長看過沒有？"],["鄭部長英耀：我看了第一集。"],["羅委員智強：看了第一集啊！我是看完了，我看前5集的時候心裡想的是，這哪是南韓啊！它點出的教育現場問題不是南韓的教育現場問題，它點出的是臺灣的教育現場問題。為什麼這幾週大家持續關注教育現場？光是從這個數字，部長就可以看出有多嚴重，已經不是個案了！當我們的教育現場系統性地崩壞到這種程度，老師今天要面臨霸凌的恐懼，面臨檢舉的濫訴，面臨所謂特權的介入等各種壓力的時候，當他對教育現場產生恐懼的時候，我說過，受害的不只是老師吧？部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然，我也要跟委員補充說明，南韓的這部片子，當時南韓的教師團體也認為它並非南韓的教育現場，他們也希望不要拍攝這樣的影片，某種程度它當然是一種提醒……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我跟你講，你講的我也都看過了，處理方式是戲劇化的手法，現實當然不可能，不可能用這種戲劇化的手法，而它之所以引起迴響也不是因為那種戲劇化的手法。我就講了嘛，那天我質詢次長，我就講了一個老師只因為在聯絡簿上寫了一句「是不是數學要多練習」，結果就被家長瘋狂投訴。抱歉啊！這個劇情可真的是一模一樣啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，就這個委員所提的例子，我覺得那是學校裡應該要挺身而出支持老師的。因為老師……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我告訴你，誰不想挺身而出支持老師？我直接問了，很多老師也都反映，現在老師的社會尊嚴，在今天很多錯誤的結構跟制度體系之下，就別說是老師、學校了，當你制度本身的設計出問題的時候，就是造成今天教育現場上的老師要面臨各式各樣的恐懼。就像我看到部長說，你們有做改革，匿名檢舉不會進到校事會議嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以你們說有82%的檢舉案件進入校事會議，修正後降到22%，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是我要問，請問匿名檢舉現在是真的不受理嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員支持我們新的辦法，目前是這樣在執行，但是地方會不會因為有一些特殊的案例，這也是我們希望……"],["羅委員智強：部長，你剛剛的回答就有保留了！我當然支持，今天要有相關的檢舉，起碼也應該要負言責嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：新制不受理，我知道教育部也拿出來作為改革的主要回應，可是還是會進到考核會啊，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：會進考核會是來自老師的行為確實有疏失，但是有一些進考核會可能就是口頭的一個提醒……"],["羅委員智強：部長，我要講的是什麼？我要講的是，今天光是匿名檢舉這件事情，在現在的制度體系之下，它還是存在啊！沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：案例我不敢保證，但是基於制度的精神，也感謝委員之前的支持，這就是我們共同希望它往好的方向走。"],["羅委員智強：部長，謝謝你，我希望你從「不敢保證」，在制度上讓它變成你「敢保證」，不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["羅委員智強：你都認為這是對的方向，我也支持啊！可是你不敢保證是因為在結構、制度上你還有沒有做好、沒有做足的地方，那我們就要想辦法把這個制度做足嘛！","事實上我們可以看到，我今天為什麼要再三地提醒部長？就是因為我真的覺得我們的教育環境已經受夠了啦！看到民怨、老師的處境，大家都知道受害的不只是老師，當老師都害怕的時候，受害的就是學生的受教權和國家的未來，而部長你就是老師最重要的後盾。","再來我想要講一下，今天審查幼兒教育及照顧法的第七條，相信部長應該也知道現在家長要找幼兒園其實都充滿了焦慮，因為它不只是教育的過程，還是很多焦慮跟壓力的集結，包括蒐集資料、參觀學校、申請、放榜、候補、有沒有抽中、要不要備案、下一步怎麼辦，這些都是今天家有幼兒的家長日常，沒錯吧？我知道部長有講一些理由，財政負擔是個理由，可是今天只要是有少子化趨勢的國家，都已經大刀闊斧地改善了幼兒教育減輕家長的壓力跟負擔。臺灣今天的生育率如果比10年前增加了一倍、兩倍，我跟你講，就絕對不會有這個案子了，不是嗎？","跟10年前相比，我們出生的人數是腰斬耶！部長，你總知道吧！為什麼？就是因為對家長來說，那個負擔已經沉重到他們沒有辦法挺住了，這是一部分的原因，還有很多社會的原因啦！可是對政府來說，我們能做的就是分擔大家的壓力，這就是為什麼賴清德總統今天為了搶救少子化要開出這麼多支票、推出這麼多政策，其實就是因為見到今天跟10年前的新生兒人數呈現腰斬的現象，所以我認為今天對於所有家有幼兒的家長來說，這個修法的討論就是來當他們後盾的，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回座。","下一位請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-22,26-1","speakers":["羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","王育敏","蔡春綢","陳培瑜","林月琴","柯志恩","羅智強","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","劉建國","黃秀芳","葉元之","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王正旭","徐欣瑩","林淑芬","傅崐萁","林倩綺","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00002","1155302_00003","1155302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查(一)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐\n欣瑩等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等16人擬具「幼\n兒教育及照顧法第三十條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第十一條、第十二條及第\n三十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員葉元之等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委\n員黃仁等19 人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 委員張嘉郡等19 人擬具\n「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法\n第七條條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草\n案」案、(十二)委員羅智強等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委\n員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員林倩綺等23人擬\n具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員廖先翔等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照\n顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修\n正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第四十三條及第五十二條條文修\n正草案」案、(十八)委員廖偉翔等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n九)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員李彥秀等\n19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}