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14:15:00","會議時間":"2026-06-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查\n(一)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二)委員徐欣瑩等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(三)委員林月琴等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n(四)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第十一條、第十二條及第三十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(六)委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(七)委員葉元之等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(八)委員黃仁等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(九)委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十)委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十二)委員羅智強等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十四)委員林倩綺等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十五)委員廖先翔等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十六)委員王育敏等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十七)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第四十三條及第五十二條條文修正      草案」案。\n(十八)委員廖偉翔等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(十九)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(二十)委員李彥秀等19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n【進行詢答及逐條審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":16.58534375,"end":18.37409375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":18.59346875,"end":19.21784375,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":28.48221875,"end":46.16721875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":46.268468750000004,"end":69.04971875000001,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":70.29846875,"end":71.81721875000001,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":72.00284375000001,"end":74.78721875000001,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":73.72409375000001,"end":73.90971875000001,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":75.00659375000001,"end":80.76096875,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":77.47034375,"end":77.63909375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":79.09034375,"end":89.29971875000001,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":90.24471875,"end":97.04534375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":97.61909375,"end":107.40659375000001,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":108.26721875000001,"end":109.02659375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":109.75221875000001,"end":116.02971875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":116.09721875000001,"end":118.88159375000001,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":120.70409375000001,"end":121.85159375,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":122.29034375,"end":124.83846875,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":124.85534375,"end":128.26409375,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":128.92221875,"end":129.54659375,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":129.95159375,"end":131.68971875,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":131.68971875,"end":131.72346875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長英耀","start":131.89221875,"end":133.02284375000002,"speaker_score":0.932},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":133.02284375000002,"end":134.86221875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":134.87909375,"end":144.53159375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":145.20659375,"end":151.45034375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":151.72034375,"end":153.35721875000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":153.91409375,"end":155.07846875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":155.50034375,"end":161.35596875000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":161.91284375,"end":165.99659375000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.78971875000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":167.24534375000002,"end":169.86096875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":170.26596875,"end":179.27721875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":179.71596875,"end":185.63909375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":185.99346875,"end":188.82846875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":189.25034375,"end":193.33409375000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":193.90784375,"end":199.99971875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":200.18534375000002,"end":209.58471875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":210.85034375,"end":213.68534375000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":214.24221875,"end":218.84909375,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":218.93346875,"end":223.42221875,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":224.08034375000003,"end":226.72971875000002,"speaker_score":0.912},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"葉委員元之","start":227.33721875,"end":231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主席好 慢慢請部長 謝謝有請部長"},{"start":28.544,"end":53.212,"text":"委員好部長好我相信那個最近教育議題很紅啦那當然是因為現在教育現場出現非常多的狀況有國小老師秦深然後最近也有一個韓劇早上也蠻多人問你的叫鐵拳教育問你看了沒那部長感覺上應該是沒看啦但是部長你有提到很多其他你看過的戲劇嘛對吧比如說你說"},{"start":54.252,"end":68.205,"text":"有早期的無愛無私、心靈捕手、危險遊戲、魯冰花等等電影都對你很有啟發性那我想問一下部長像鐵拳教育這部韓劇如果你看你會有什麼啟發嗎?"},{"start":70.336,"end":88.748,"text":"我認為那不是教育啊不是教育我事實上桌上我就有放這個第一集我就有看但是我認為那不是教育不是教育嗎它不是教育當然那是戲劇嘛但是你知道為什麼這部戲劇可以這麼大的引起那麼多人的共鳴你知道嗎"},{"start":90.685,"end":118.544,"text":"不管是家長也好老師也好都在熱烈討論這部劇當然他戲劇所以他最後會有一個教權局一個督察他用了當然現實生活中不可能用的手段來處理很多問題可是您知道為什麼在台灣會這麼廣泛被討論嗎您知道為什麼嗎其實這個才是大家問你有沒有看的原因不是說你從裡面有沒有學到什麼教育的啟發不是而是到底為什麼這個東西會引起共鳴"},{"start":120.745,"end":143.433,"text":"我認為某種程度我不認為那叫共鳴是台灣的教育當然面對了一定的挑戰但是大家也有一些案例是我們所不願意碰到部長您不方便講我說共鳴當然是有共鳴因為它裡面演的東西很多都在台灣的教育現場上演"},{"start":145.413,"end":167.544,"text":"這才是問題啦 譬如說第一集講到的校園惡霸這個我也常跟你討論嘛 有沒有校園惡霸 有有沒有辦法處理 很難處理譬如說有講到學生因為被老師管教不爽就假造老師性騷擾他有沒有 這個我跟你討論過吧對不對 有學生在網路上講說怎麼弄走導師 只要檢舉他姓名就好 也有還有有沒有爛訴 有爛訴嗎 家長爛訴嗎"},{"start":170.365,"end":188.297,"text":"對不對 然後裡面有沒有那個老師選擇輕生也有所以其實他演的很多都是我們台灣校園在發生事情那戲劇的效果就是有一個英雄把這個問題用一些現實生活不可能出現的方式把它解決了那台灣這邊有發生這樣的問題我們怎麼去解決我覺得這個是大家關心的問題嘛"},{"start":194.011,"end":222.707,"text":"不能說完全透過戲劇的慰藉嘛而是說現實問題這麼嚴重我們怎麼解決那韓劇其實演的是真實狀況就是他們發生的狀況那我給部長看一張照片你知道這張照片是什麼嗎你應該不知道沒關係我告訴你這個是2023年韓國12萬老師罷課走上街頭的照片那個時候發生什麼事那個時候發生也是韓國一大堆老師輕生"},{"start":224.27,"end":240.976,"text":"特別是有一個國小年輕老師23歲在學校裡面因為管教學生的衝突後來引起學生不爽學生呢就辱罵老師家長濫訴後來這個老師也受不了就選擇了這種方式結束生命當時啊這2023年從2018年到2023年韓國大概累積了100位老師輕生"},{"start":246.818,"end":266.055,"text":"非常嚴重所以12萬老師用請假用找退各種方式走上街頭然後把那天定為好像什麼公立什麼教育放假日之類的就定了一個日我是不想要我們台灣走上這一步可是台灣現在狀況其實也是蠻嚴重的"},{"start":268.337,"end":293.134,"text":"我不知道教育部有沒有去統計啦我們可以看因為這個資料是前幾年的資料有一個老師自殺的一個資料這個是銀山到112啦因為我們最近是最近大概一年就三位老師輕生嘛然後這個是各學制教師自殺自傷的狀況你可以看這個紫色的線到112年"},{"start":295.1,"end":321.353,"text":"國小的部分就整個上去南韓的問題也是國小最為嚴重所以現在我們大家去思考說怎麼給老師最好的支持保護老師其實就是保護孩子啦我聽到很多是家長跟我反應說怎麼去保護他們班的老師我舉個例子比如說他們班的老師請了五個同學喝飲料因為他覺得那五個同學進步最多"},{"start":322.253,"end":341.666,"text":"請他喝飲料結果第六個同學成績很好他說老師你怎麼沒有請我喝飲料你霸凌我所以家長就投訴老師那老師說沒有啊我只是鼓勵他們進步啊家長不管你就是霸凌你讓我的小朋友不舒服結果進入到校事會議老師不甘受辱啊那我留之庭心所以老師現在請假當中"},{"start":343.007,"end":358.796,"text":"結果別的家長看不下去他說欸 這個老師很好啊結果就是因為有人爛輸他被調查然後他不來上課我們半邊沒老師啊所以是其他老師來拜託啊我這種個案我們只能拜託教育部怎麼去讓整個環境導正不要變成說"},{"start":360.625,"end":384.641,"text":"讓一些好老師家長支持的老師一個一個離開的校園這是我們想要去解決的問題那我也有聽不管是次長或之前上次您沒來啦沒有來上次那個次長說他說我們現在改革以後比如說本來是要具名改成匿名現在改成具名分流什麼已經讓投訴的案件變少嘛而且成案只剩兩成對吧"},{"start":386.342,"end":415.219,"text":"你們是有講到這個數據嘛但是這個數據其實不是說有成效啊而是它可能反映一個現象現在很多老師都防御式教學啊那剛剛我講那個請飲料老師他不請飲料就沒事啊他請的飲料被投訴搞到自己流知停心所以如果很多老師知道這個案例那我就不要請飲料啦不做不錯嘛然後有的老師是因為管教學生學生講話管教老師學生不爽家長去投訴"},{"start":417.387,"end":427.545,"text":"結果被進入校職會那我不要管教可以吧你睡覺你只要不要吵到別人就好你安心睡吧現在變這樣啦那就不會被投訴啦"},{"start":428.786,"end":453.537,"text":"所以我是希望教育不要拿的那些數字好像覺得有成效我們要去了解它背後的原因就好比說你不要開車就不會發生車禍一樣老師都防禦新教學當然就不會得罪學生就不會被投訴問題也有可能是這樣那有幾個建議我建議一下部長第一個我們要有一個教育的資源中心就像韓國一樣"},{"start":455.497,"end":480.208,"text":"現在老師都是獨自去面對這些問題真的 太多老師當被信呼到校士會議的時候都是獨自面對問題上次你沒有來我跟那一天那個次長分享一個案例宜蘭的老師被學生從後面捅鋼門捅完之後後來他有推學生學生有撞到後來他就被送到校士會議校士會議最後的結論是說雖然學生有戳中他的鋼門"},{"start":481.428,"end":503.933,"text":"但是老師也不能夠去傷害學生,所以他畢竟生氣了那在過程當中,那個家長一直嗆那個老師說,你被戳中肛門又怎麼樣老師很生氣喔,我寫個黑板要被戳肛門喔家長是這樣的態度那是不是其實應該有人跟家長講說,欸不能這樣子你學生今天會戳肛門,那以後會做什麼其他的事情今天不尊重老師,以後會尊重社會嗎"},{"start":505.489,"end":532.915,"text":"沒有人去講這件事然後行政人員在旁邊非常冷漠所以老師本人覺得沒有人在支持我啊當我今天面對這個現狀的時候是我一個人在面對所以教育部能不能夠不管是學校不支持老師也好或者是什麼單位不支持老師我們要去建立一個教師的支持系統讓教師覺得說大家是跟他們站在一起的我覺得這件事情是很重要那希望部長可以去做啦第二個"},{"start":534.318,"end":551.353,"text":"校士會議上次我有講它叫做有罪推定這個你應該也知道嘛像有一次我們在總質詢的時候我有跟卓榮泰院長提到這個事情卓榮泰院長也覺得不能有罪推定司法上是無罪推定可是校士會議的做法就是自證清白啊"},{"start":552.287,"end":579.273,"text":"知人清白就是有人這樣指控你請你告訴我你沒有這就叫有罪推定可是那一天那個來的那個朱次長一直說沒有條文沒有條文沒有所以就絕對沒有我不能接受這樣的態度啊條文沒有但是現狀就是有啊那如果有造成問題的話我們就要去想辦法改變啊改進就像您之前所提出來的辦法如果匿名太腐爛我們改句名啊這就是一種做法而不是我們把眼睛摸起來說條文沒有就沒有"},{"start":581.771,"end":602.75,"text":"部長您可以接受嗎本來我也同意民主法制的一個社會就是無罪推定這也是也感謝委員之前我們這個大家的一個支持我們這個校士會議做的調整校士會議還是一樣有罪推定啊這個要改啦這個絕對不是委員說有罪推定就有罪推定"},{"start":604.011,"end":618.605,"text":"就是自證清白就是有罪推定我們人之路就是在第一個分流分流裡面就已經變成一個基本上不是一個有罪推定嘛自證清白就是啦部長我們不要在那邊玩文字遊戲然後再來再來為什麼現在"},{"start":622.04,"end":639.683,"text":"校士會議出現那麼多狀況即便你分流然後進入到校士會議大家還是很不能接受除了有追推定之外就是我們現在是怎麼去看待校士會議這件事情嘛當初人本基金會跟你們教育部在推這個東西的時候你看人本基金會執行長怎麼講他受訪的時候他說什麼"},{"start":640.484,"end":657.992,"text":"他說哎呀老師你們的冤屈其實也不會對你造成什麼問題啊他覺得不要因為一個無效的投訴去推翻過去親師間的信任哇這個要站著講話不腰疼啊說風涼話每一個老師被送到校事會議他最後即便是清白可是過程當中他受到兩到四個月的調查"},{"start":659.112,"end":672.849,"text":"他要不斷證明自己沒有這才是我們這麼一步來很多老師因為這樣心灰意冷離開校園所以為什麼現在大家不想當老師嘛結果人本基金會的人說不要這樣子嘛不要因為一個人無機要投訴"},{"start":674.668,"end":693.431,"text":"是這樣子嗎校士會議的初衷是什麼校士會議的初衷是你們很擔心說如果有不適任老師校評會失事相互嘛就讓那些不適任老師不能離開校園這個我支持啊如果不適任的話你當然我們站在兒童保育的這個角度一定要這樣子做啊"},{"start":693.971,"end":719.694,"text":"可是這個制度走到現在是大概你除以2%的不適合老師造成整個教育現場的失序那我們當然就要重新來思考一下這個制度還走不走得下去嘛就當初在推動的人說爛樹就爛樹啊老師你不要好像講老師玻璃心一樣而這樣的一個基金會跟你們一起在主導教育政策我真的很擔心啊"},{"start":721.465,"end":739.584,"text":"沒有人說第三方機制不好可是第三方機制如果造成更大的問題的時候這就是我們要來檢討的時候了嘛你還是可以維持第三方機制啦沒問題啦可是他的具體做法他的操作方式人選各方面已經要到了調整的時候了"},{"start":740.385,"end":761.412,"text":"跟委員報告我們一頁就是做了調整啊所以過去的老師代表家長會代表都只是列席我們這一次在第一關的時候就老師代表教師代表也都進來了只有一位社會公正人士三個人來決定這個老師他的許多的行為因為我們也相信大部分老師"},{"start":762.372,"end":791.124,"text":"他是認真的他不是每一個人都要我們都是反映現在狀況啦那你就你們一直在辯解反而會讓基層的人更覺得你們離他們很遠我沒有辯解我跟基層老師是站在一起的你就仔細去思考一下到底有哪些東西可以調整那現在有一個狀況就是譬如說台南有個老師一直被投訴被投訴四十幾次前面都沒事但是家長一直找各種理由一直投訴他"},{"start":791.764,"end":817.896,"text":"到最後學校跟他講你都被投訴那麼多次了我不處理你跟家長說不過去啦所以最後處理他你去了解一下現在到底教育現場是什麼樣的氛圍你去了解一下什麼樣的氛圍會造成這個狀況好不好不要以就是你們講那個數據沾沾自喜什麼立案已經從八成降到兩成我們從來沒有沾沾自喜對不要完全不因為你們現在都是在講這個東西嘛"},{"start":819.69,"end":839.164,"text":"那我聽到很多你們講這個數據說大家都不買單嘛為什麼不買單就是數據沒有反應背後的現實嘛所以請你繼續加油在針對教權的維護還有改革校士會議的這一塊或者是說用什麼方式來取代校士會議請你繼續加油繼續努力好不好好不好然後"},{"start":841.426,"end":854.795,"text":"鐵拳教育主要是反映了大家對台灣教育的擔憂不是說像你講的跟心靈捕手什麼滷冰花什麼一樣什麼啟發性代表你現在還不知道大家關心的議題在哪裡所以請部長繼續加油謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:00.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:01.683000+08:00","text":"（14時）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:01.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:01.783000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:12.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:12.764000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:13.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:13.704000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:14.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:36.471000+08:00","text":"我相信最近教育議題很紅，當然是因為現在教育現場出現非常多狀況，有國小老師輕生，還有最近有一個韓劇，早上也蠻多人問你看「鐵拳教育」了沒，部長感覺上應該是沒看，但是部長有提到很多其他你看過的戲劇，對吧？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:36.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:52.205000+08:00","text":"比如說早期的吾愛吾師、心靈捕手、危險遊戲、魯冰花等等電影都對你很有啟發性，我想問一下部長，像鐵拳教育這部韓劇如果你看了，會有什麼啟發嗎？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:54.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:55.457000+08:00","text":"我認為那不是教育。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:56.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:01:56.577000+08:00","text":"不是教育？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:01:57.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:02.921000+08:00","text":"事實上我有放第一集，我有看，但是我認為那不是教育。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:03.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:03.522000+08:00","text":"不是教育？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:04.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:04.642000+08:00","text":"那不是教育。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:04.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:12.748000+08:00","text":"當然那是戲劇，但是你知道為什麼這部戲劇可以引起這麼大、那麼多人的共鳴，你知道嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:14.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:30.756000+08:00","text":"不管是家長也好、老師也好，都在熱烈討論這部劇，當然它是戲劇，所以它最後會有一個教權局、一個督察，它用了現實生活中不可能用的手段來處理了很多問題，可是您知道為什麼在臺灣會這麼廣泛被討論嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:30.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:33.858000+08:00","text":"你知道為什麼嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:33.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:42.544000+08:00","text":"其實這個才是大家問你有沒有看的原因，不是說你從裡面有沒有學到什麼教育的啟發，不是，而是到底為什麼這個東西會引起共鳴？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:46.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:02:59.330000+08:00","text":"某種程度我不認為那叫共鳴，臺灣的教育當然面對了一定的挑戰，也有一些案例是我們所不願意碰到的……","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:02:59.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:15.016000+08:00","text":"沒關係，部長不方便講，我來說，共鳴當然是有共鳴，因為它裡面演的東西，很多都在臺灣的教育現場上演，這才是問題，譬如說第一集講到校園惡霸，這個我也常跟你討論，有沒有校園惡霸？有！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:15.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:16.396000+08:00","text":"有沒有辦法處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:16.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:17.177000+08:00","text":"很難處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:17.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:24.400000+08:00","text":"譬如說有講到學生因為被老師管教不爽，就假造老師性騷擾他，有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:24.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:26.301000+08:00","text":"這我跟你討論過吧，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:26.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:03:35.086000+08:00","text":"有學生在網路上講怎麼弄走老師，只要檢舉他就好，也有，還有家長濫訴，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:03:35.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:04:03.494000+08:00","text":"裡面也有老師選擇輕生，所以其實它演的很多都是我們臺灣校園在發生的事情，戲劇的效果就是有一個英雄把這個問題用一些現實生活不可能出現的方式解決了，臺灣這邊有發生這樣問題，我們要怎麼去解決，我覺得這個是大家關心的問題，不能完全透過戲劇的慰藉，而是現實問題這麼嚴重，我們要怎麼解決？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:04:05.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:04:08.537000+08:00","text":"韓劇其實演的是真實狀況，就是他們發生的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:04:08.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:04:14.901000+08:00","text":"我給部長看一張照片，你知道這照片是什麼嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:04:14.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:04:24.066000+08:00","text":"你應該不知道，沒關係，我告訴你，這個是2023年韓國12萬老師罷課走上街頭的照片，那個時候發生什麼事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:04:24.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:04:44.156000+08:00","text":"那時候韓國也是一大堆老師輕生，特別是有一個年輕的國小老師，才23歲，在學校裡面因為管教學生的衝突，後來引起學生不爽，學生就辱罵老師，家長濫訴，後來這個老師受不了，就選擇這種方式結束生命，當時是2023年。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:04:44.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:05:10.035000+08:00","text":"從2018年到2023年，韓國大概累積了100位老師輕生，非常嚴重，所以12萬名老師用請假、早退各種方式走上街頭，然後把那天定為「公立教育暫停日」，我不想要我們臺灣走上這一步，可是臺灣現在狀況其實也是蠻嚴重的。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:05:12.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:05:42.862000+08:00","text":"我不知道教育部有沒有去統計，我們可以來看，因為這個資料是前幾年的資料，是老師自傷、自殺的資料，這個是103到112，我們最近一年有3位老師輕生，然後這個是各學制教師自殺、自傷的狀況，你可以看這個紫色的線，到112年，國小的部分整個上去，南韓的問題也是國小最為嚴重。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:05:43.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:05:57.769000+08:00","text":"所以現在我們大家要去思考怎麼給老師最好的支持，保護老師其實就是保護孩子，我聽到很多是家長跟我反映要怎麼去保護他們班的老師。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:05:57.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:06:12.738000+08:00","text":"我舉一個例子，比如說他們班的老師請了5個同學喝飲料，因為他覺得那5個同學進步最多，請他們喝飲料，結果第6個同學成績也很好，他說老師你怎麼沒有請我喝飲料，你霸凌我，所以家長就投訴老師。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:06:12.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:06:25.646000+08:00","text":"而老師說沒有，他只是鼓勵他們進步，但家長不管，說他就是霸凌，他讓我的小朋友不舒服，結果進入到校事會議，老師不甘受辱，他要留職停薪，所以老師現在請假當中。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:06:27.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:06:36.972000+08:00","text":"結果別的家長看不下去，說這個老師很好，卻因為有人濫訴，他被調查，所以他不來上課，他們班變成沒老師，所以是其他家長來拜託。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:06:38.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:06:50.629000+08:00","text":"這種個案我們只能拜託教育部，要怎麼去導正整個環境，不要變成一些好老師、家長支持的老師一個一個離開校園，這是我們想要去解決的問題。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:06:51.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:07:08.621000+08:00","text":"我也有聽不管是次長或之前……上次您沒有來，上次次長說我們現在改革以後，比如本來是要匿名，現在改成具名，還有分流等，已經讓投訴的案件變少，而且成案只剩兩成，對吧？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:07:10.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:07:33.856000+08:00","text":"你們有講到這個數據，但是這個數據其實不是有成效，而是它可能反映一個現象，現在很多老師都防禦式教學，剛剛我講到那個請飲料老師，他不請飲料就沒事，他請了飲料卻被投訴，搞到自己留職停薪，如果很多老師知道這個案例，那他就不會請飲料了，不做不錯。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:07:34.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:07:43.992000+08:00","text":"然後有的老師是因為管教學生，學生講話，老師去管教，導致學生不爽，家長去投訴，結果被進入校事會議，那他就不要管教可以吧！","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:07:46.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:07:51.525000+08:00","text":"學生睡覺，只要不要吵到別人就好，他安心睡吧，現在變成這樣，老師就不會被投訴了。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:07:52.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:08:08.453000+08:00","text":"所以我希望教育部不要拿著那些數字，好像覺得有成效，我們要去了解它背後的原因，就好比說你不要開車就不會發生車禍一樣，老師都防禦性教學，這樣當然就不會得罪學生，就不會被投訴，問題也有可能是這樣。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:08:08.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:08:26.380000+08:00","text":"有幾點我建議一下部長，第一個，我們要有一個教育的支援中心，就像韓國一樣，現在老師都是獨自去面對這些問題，真的，太多老師被進入到校事會議的時候，都是獨自面對問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:08:26.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:08:55.190000+08:00","text":"上次你沒有來，我那一天跟次長分享了一個案例，宜蘭的老師被學生從後面捅肛門，捅完之後他有推學生，學生有撞到，後來他就被送到校事會議，而校事會議最後的結論是，雖然學生有戳中他的肛門，但是老師也不能夠去傷害學生，所以他被記申誡，但在這過程當中，家長一直嗆老師被戳中肛門又怎麼樣！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:08:55.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:09:06.513000+08:00","text":"老師很生氣，老師說他寫黑板就被戳肛門，家長是這樣的態度，那是不是應該有人跟家長講說不能這樣子，學生今天會戳肛門，那以後會做什麼事情？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:09:06.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:09:07.933000+08:00","text":"今天不尊重老師，以後會尊重社會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:09:09.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:09:36.195000+08:00","text":"沒有人去講這件事，然後行政人員在旁邊非常冷漠，所以老師覺得沒有人在支持他，他今天面對這個現狀的時候是他一個人在面對，所以教育部能不能夠……學校不支持老師，或者是什麼單位不支持老師，我們要去建立一個教師的支持系統，讓教師覺得大家跟他們是站在一起的，我覺得這件事情很重要，希望部長可以去做。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:09:36.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:09:58.688000+08:00","text":"第二個，上次我有講，校事會議是有罪推定，這個你應該也知道，有一次我們在總質詢的時候，我有跟卓榮泰院長提到這個事情，卓榮泰院長也覺得不能有罪推定，司法上是無罪推定，可是校事會議的做法就是自證清白，就是有人這樣指控你，請你告訴我：你沒有。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:09:59.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:05.749000+08:00","text":"因次，這就叫有罪推定，可是那一天朱次長一直說：條文沒有，所以就絕對沒有。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:06.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:10.210000+08:00","text":"我不能接受這樣的態度，條文沒有但是現狀就是有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:10.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:23.253000+08:00","text":"如果有造成問題的話，我們就去想辦法改變、改進，就像您之前所提出來的辦法，如果匿名太浮濫，我們改具名，這就是一種作法，而不是我們把眼睛矇起來說，條文沒有就沒有！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:25.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:28.494000+08:00","text":"部長，您可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:29.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:38.322000+08:00","text":"我也同意民主法治的社會就是無罪推定，也是感謝委員還有大家的支持，我們校事會議做了調整，對於老師……","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:39.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:42.686000+08:00","text":"校事會議還是一樣有罪推定，這個要改啦！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:42.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:44.508000+08:00","text":"然後第二個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:44.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:46.730000+08:00","text":"這個絕對不是委員說有罪推定，就有罪推定。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:48.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:50.473000+08:00","text":"有，自證清白就是有罪推定。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:50.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:10:57+08:00","text":"我們的制度就是在第一個分流，分流就已經變成一個……基本上不是一個有罪推定。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:10:57.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:00.723000+08:00","text":"自證清白就是啦，部長，我們不要在那邊玩文字遊戲。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:01.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:07.582000+08:00","text":"再來，為什麼現在校事會議出現那麼多狀況？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:07.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:16.614000+08:00","text":"即便你分流，然後進入到校事會議，大家還是很不能接受，除了有罪推定之外，我們現在是怎麼去看待校事會議這件事情？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:17.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:22.221000+08:00","text":"當初人本基金會跟你們教育部在推這個東西的時候，你看人本基金會執行長怎麼講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:22.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:28.066000+08:00","text":"他受訪的時候，他說：老師，你們的冤屈其實也不會對你造成什麼問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:28.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:44.474000+08:00","text":"他覺得不要因為一個無效投訴，去推翻過去親師間的信任，這個叫站著講話不腰疼，說風涼話，每一個老師被送到校事會議，最後即便是清白，可是過程當中，他受到兩到四個月的調查，還要不斷證明自己沒有。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:44.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:48.199000+08:00","text":"這才是我們這麼一路來……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:48.199000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:49.199000+08:00","text":"等我講完。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:48.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:52.244000+08:00","text":"很多老師因為這樣心灰意冷離開校園，所以為什麼現在大家不想當老師？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:52.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:11:56.849000+08:00","text":"結果，人本基金會的人說：唉呀，不要這樣子嘛，不要因為一個無效投訴。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:11:58.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:12:00.330000+08:00","text":"是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:12:00.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:12:02.653000+08:00","text":"校事會議的初衷是什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:12:02.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:12:17.230000+08:00","text":"校事會議的初衷是，你們很擔心如果有不適任老師，校評會會師師相護，就讓那些不適任老師不能離開校園，這個我支持，如果不適任的話，當然我們站在兒童保育的角度一定要這樣子做。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:12:17.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:12:29.621000+08:00","text":"可是這個制度走到現在是，你大概除役2%的不適任老師，造成整個教育現場的失序，我們當然就要重新來思考一下這個制度還走不走得下去。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:12:30.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:12:37.989000+08:00","text":"結果當初在推動的人說：濫訴就濫訴，老師你不要這麼……好像在講老師玻璃心！","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:12:39.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:03.564000+08:00","text":"而這樣的一個基金會正跟你們一起在主導教育政策，我真的很擔心，沒有人說第三方機制不好，可是第三方機制如果造成更大的問題，那就是我們要來檢討的時候，你還是可以維持第三方機制，沒問題，可是它的具體做法、操作方式、人選，各方面已經到了要調整的時候了。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:04.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:06.706000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們1月份就是做了調整啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:07.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:29.753000+08:00","text":"所以過去的老師代表、家長會代表都只是列席，我們這次在第一關的時候，老師代表、教師代表也都進來了，只有一位社會公正人士，由三個人來決定這個老師許多的行為，因為我們也相信大部分的老師是認真的，不是每一個人都要被……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:29.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:31.934000+08:00","text":"部長，我們都是反映現在狀況。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:31.934000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:33.995000+08:00","text":"感謝委員提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:33.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:38.937000+08:00","text":"你們一直在辯解，反而會讓基層的人更覺得你們離他們很遠。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:38.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:41.778000+08:00","text":"我沒有辯解，我跟基層老師是站在一起的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:41.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:45.620000+08:00","text":"我跟你反映，你就仔細去思考一下，到底有哪些東西可以調整？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:45.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:13:46.620000+08:00","text":"我也希望我們的教育一定要親師合作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:13:46.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:03.167000+08:00","text":"現在有一個狀況，譬如說臺南有個老師一直被投訴，投訴了四十幾次，前面都沒事，但是家長一直找各種理由投訴他，到最後學校跟他講，你都被投訴那麼多次了，我不處理你，跟家長過說不過去，所以最後處理他。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:04.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:13.192000+08:00","text":"你去了解一下，到底現在教育現場是什麼樣的氛圍，你去了解什麼樣的氛圍會造成這個狀況，好不好？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:14.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:19.134000+08:00","text":"不要以你們講的那個數據沾沾自喜，什麼立案已經從八成降到兩成……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:19.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:19.855000+08:00","text":"我們從來沒有沾沾自喜。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:19.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:27.733000+08:00","text":"對，完全不要，因為你們現在都是在講這個東西，我是聽到你們講這個數據的時候，大家很多都不買單，為什麼不買單？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:27.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:42.444000+08:00","text":"就是數據沒有反映背後的現實，所以請你繼續加油，在針對教權的維護，還有改革校事會議的這一塊，或者是用什麼方式來取代校事會議，請你繼續加油、繼續努力，好不好？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:42.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:43.444000+08:00","text":"我想這個心情跟委員是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:42.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-18T14:14:58.795000+08:00","text":"然後鐵拳教育主要是反映大家對臺灣教育的擔憂，不是像你講的跟心靈補手、魯冰花一樣什麼啟發性，代表你現在還不知道大家關心的議題在哪裡，所以請部長繼續加油，謝謝。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-06-18T14:14:59.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:15:00.437857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T14:15:00.737857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:15:04.166429+08:00","text":"好，謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-18T14:15:04.466429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-18T14:15:08.752143+08:00","text":"我們下一位質詢的委員吳思瑤委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（14時）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我相信最近教育議題很紅，當然是因為現在教育現場出現非常多狀況，有國小老師輕生，還有最近有一個韓劇，早上也蠻多人問你看「鐵拳教育」了沒，部長感覺上應該是沒看，但是部長有提到很多其他你看過的戲劇，對吧？比如說早期的吾愛吾師、心靈捕手、危險遊戲、魯冰花等等電影都對你很有啟發性，我想問一下部長，像鐵拳教育這部韓劇如果你看了，會有什麼啟發嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我認為那不是教育。"],["葉委員元之：不是教育？"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上我有放第一集，我有看，但是我認為那不是教育。"],["葉委員元之：不是教育？"],["鄭部長英耀：那不是教育。"],["葉委員元之：當然那是戲劇，但是你知道為什麼這部戲劇可以引起這麼大、那麼多人的共鳴，你知道嗎？不管是家長也好、老師也好，都在熱烈討論這部劇，當然它是戲劇，所以它最後會有一個教權局、一個督察，它用了現實生活中不可能用的手段來處理了很多問題，可是您知道為什麼在臺灣會這麼廣泛被討論嗎？你知道為什麼嗎？其實這個才是大家問你有沒有看的原因，不是說你從裡面有沒有學到什麼教育的啟發，不是，而是到底為什麼這個東西會引起共鳴？"],["鄭部長英耀：某種程度我不認為那叫共鳴，臺灣的教育當然面對了一定的挑戰，也有一些案例是我們所不願意碰到的……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，部長不方便講，我來說，共鳴當然是有共鳴，因為它裡面演的東西，很多都在臺灣的教育現場上演，這才是問題，譬如說第一集講到校園惡霸，這個我也常跟你討論，有沒有校園惡霸？有！有沒有辦法處理？很難處理。譬如說有講到學生因為被老師管教不爽，就假造老師性騷擾他，有沒有？這我跟你討論過吧，對不對？有學生在網路上講怎麼弄走老師，只要檢舉他就好，也有，還有家長濫訴，對不對？裡面也有老師選擇輕生，所以其實它演的很多都是我們臺灣校園在發生的事情，戲劇的效果就是有一個英雄把這個問題用一些現實生活不可能出現的方式解決了，臺灣這邊有發生這樣問題，我們要怎麼去解決，我覺得這個是大家關心的問題，不能完全透過戲劇的慰藉，而是現實問題這麼嚴重，我們要怎麼解決？韓劇其實演的是真實狀況，就是他們發生的狀況。","我給部長看一張照片，你知道這照片是什麼嗎？你應該不知道，沒關係，我告訴你，這個是2023年韓國12萬老師罷課走上街頭的照片，那個時候發生什麼事？那時候韓國也是一大堆老師輕生，特別是有一個年輕的國小老師，才23歲，在學校裡面因為管教學生的衝突，後來引起學生不爽，學生就辱罵老師，家長濫訴，後來這個老師受不了，就選擇這種方式結束生命，當時是2023年。從2018年到2023年，韓國大概累積了100位老師輕生，非常嚴重，所以12萬名老師用請假、早退各種方式走上街頭，然後把那天定為「公立教育暫停日」，我不想要我們臺灣走上這一步，可是臺灣現在狀況其實也是蠻嚴重的。","我不知道教育部有沒有去統計，我們可以來看，因為這個資料是前幾年的資料，是老師自傷、自殺的資料，這個是103到112，我們最近一年有3位老師輕生，然後這個是各學制教師自殺、自傷的狀況，你可以看這個紫色的線，到112年，國小的部分整個上去，南韓的問題也是國小最為嚴重。所以現在我們大家要去思考怎麼給老師最好的支持，保護老師其實就是保護孩子，我聽到很多是家長跟我反映要怎麼去保護他們班的老師。我舉一個例子，比如說他們班的老師請了5個同學喝飲料，因為他覺得那5個同學進步最多，請他們喝飲料，結果第6個同學成績也很好，他說老師你怎麼沒有請我喝飲料，你霸凌我，所以家長就投訴老師。而老師說沒有，他只是鼓勵他們進步，但家長不管，說他就是霸凌，他讓我的小朋友不舒服，結果進入到校事會議，老師不甘受辱，他要留職停薪，所以老師現在請假當中。結果別的家長看不下去，說這個老師很好，卻因為有人濫訴，他被調查，所以他不來上課，他們班變成沒老師，所以是其他家長來拜託。這種個案我們只能拜託教育部，要怎麼去導正整個環境，不要變成一些好老師、家長支持的老師一個一個離開校園，這是我們想要去解決的問題。","我也有聽不管是次長或之前……上次您沒有來，上次次長說我們現在改革以後，比如本來是要匿名，現在改成具名，還有分流等，已經讓投訴的案件變少，而且成案只剩兩成，對吧？你們有講到這個數據，但是這個數據其實不是有成效，而是它可能反映一個現象，現在很多老師都防禦式教學，剛剛我講到那個請飲料老師，他不請飲料就沒事，他請了飲料卻被投訴，搞到自己留職停薪，如果很多老師知道這個案例，那他就不會請飲料了，不做不錯。然後有的老師是因為管教學生，學生講話，老師去管教，導致學生不爽，家長去投訴，結果被進入校事會議，那他就不要管教可以吧！學生睡覺，只要不要吵到別人就好，他安心睡吧，現在變成這樣，老師就不會被投訴了。所以我希望教育部不要拿著那些數字，好像覺得有成效，我們要去了解它背後的原因，就好比說你不要開車就不會發生車禍一樣，老師都防禦性教學，這樣當然就不會得罪學生，就不會被投訴，問題也有可能是這樣。","有幾點我建議一下部長，第一個，我們要有一個教育的支援中心，就像韓國一樣，現在老師都是獨自去面對這些問題，真的，太多老師被進入到校事會議的時候，都是獨自面對問題。上次你沒有來，我那一天跟次長分享了一個案例，宜蘭的老師被學生從後面捅肛門，捅完之後他有推學生，學生有撞到，後來他就被送到校事會議，而校事會議最後的結論是，雖然學生有戳中他的肛門，但是老師也不能夠去傷害學生，所以他被記申誡，但在這過程當中，家長一直嗆老師被戳中肛門又怎麼樣！老師很生氣，老師說他寫黑板就被戳肛門，家長是這樣的態度，那是不是應該有人跟家長講說不能這樣子，學生今天會戳肛門，那以後會做什麼事情？今天不尊重老師，以後會尊重社會嗎？沒有人去講這件事，然後行政人員在旁邊非常冷漠，所以老師覺得沒有人在支持他，他今天面對這個現狀的時候是他一個人在面對，所以教育部能不能夠……學校不支持老師，或者是什麼單位不支持老師，我們要去建立一個教師的支持系統，讓教師覺得大家跟他們是站在一起的，我覺得這件事情很重要，希望部長可以去做。","第二個，上次我有講，校事會議是有罪推定，這個你應該也知道，有一次我們在總質詢的時候，我有跟卓榮泰院長提到這個事情，卓榮泰院長也覺得不能有罪推定，司法上是無罪推定，可是校事會議的做法就是自證清白，就是有人這樣指控你，請你告訴我：你沒有。因次，這就叫有罪推定，可是那一天朱次長一直說：條文沒有，所以就絕對沒有。我不能接受這樣的態度，條文沒有但是現狀就是有啊！如果有造成問題的話，我們就去想辦法改變、改進，就像您之前所提出來的辦法，如果匿名太浮濫，我們改具名，這就是一種作法，而不是我們把眼睛矇起來說，條文沒有就沒有！部長，您可以接受嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我也同意民主法治的社會就是無罪推定，也是感謝委員還有大家的支持，我們校事會議做了調整，對於老師……"],["葉委員元之：校事會議還是一樣有罪推定，這個要改啦！然後第二個……"],["鄭部長英耀：這個絕對不是委員說有罪推定，就有罪推定。"],["葉委員元之：有，自證清白就是有罪推定。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們的制度就是在第一個分流，分流就已經變成一個……基本上不是一個有罪推定。"],["葉委員元之：自證清白就是啦，部長，我們不要在那邊玩文字遊戲。再來，為什麼現在校事會議出現那麼多狀況？即便你分流，然後進入到校事會議，大家還是很不能接受，除了有罪推定之外，我們現在是怎麼去看待校事會議這件事情？當初人本基金會跟你們教育部在推這個東西的時候，你看人本基金會執行長怎麼講？他受訪的時候，他說：老師，你們的冤屈其實也不會對你造成什麼問題。他覺得不要因為一個無效投訴，去推翻過去親師間的信任，這個叫站著講話不腰疼，說風涼話，每一個老師被送到校事會議，最後即便是清白，可是過程當中，他受到兩到四個月的調查，還要不斷證明自己沒有。"],["鄭部長英耀：這才是我們這麼一路來……"],["葉委員元之：等我講完。很多老師因為這樣心灰意冷離開校園，所以為什麼現在大家不想當老師？結果，人本基金會的人說：唉呀，不要這樣子嘛，不要因為一個無效投訴。是這樣子嗎？校事會議的初衷是什麼？校事會議的初衷是，你們很擔心如果有不適任老師，校評會會師師相護，就讓那些不適任老師不能離開校園，這個我支持，如果不適任的話，當然我們站在兒童保育的角度一定要這樣子做。可是這個制度走到現在是，你大概除役2%的不適任老師，造成整個教育現場的失序，我們當然就要重新來思考一下這個制度還走不走得下去。結果當初在推動的人說：濫訴就濫訴，老師你不要這麼……好像在講老師玻璃心！而這樣的一個基金會正跟你們一起在主導教育政策，我真的很擔心，沒有人說第三方機制不好，可是第三方機制如果造成更大的問題，那就是我們要來檢討的時候，你還是可以維持第三方機制，沒問題，可是它的具體做法、操作方式、人選，各方面已經到了要調整的時候了。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們1月份就是做了調整啊！所以過去的老師代表、家長會代表都只是列席，我們這次在第一關的時候，老師代表、教師代表也都進來了，只有一位社會公正人士，由三個人來決定這個老師許多的行為，因為我們也相信大部分的老師是認真的，不是每一個人都要被……"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們都是反映現在狀況。"],["鄭部長英耀：感謝委員提醒。"],["葉委員元之：你們一直在辯解，反而會讓基層的人更覺得你們離他們很遠。"],["鄭部長英耀：我沒有辯解，我跟基層老師是站在一起的。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你反映，你就仔細去思考一下，到底有哪些東西可以調整？"],["鄭部長英耀：我也希望我們的教育一定要親師合作。"],["葉委員元之：現在有一個狀況，譬如說臺南有個老師一直被投訴，投訴了四十幾次，前面都沒事，但是家長一直找各種理由投訴他，到最後學校跟他講，你都被投訴那麼多次了，我不處理你，跟家長過說不過去，所以最後處理他。你去了解一下，到底現在教育現場是什麼樣的氛圍，你去了解什麼樣的氛圍會造成這個狀況，好不好？不要以你們講的那個數據沾沾自喜，什麼立案已經從八成降到兩成……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們從來沒有沾沾自喜。"],["葉委員元之：對，完全不要，因為你們現在都是在講這個東西，我是聽到你們講這個數據的時候，大家很多都不買單，為什麼不買單？就是數據沒有反映背後的現實，所以請你繼續加油，在針對教權的維護，還有改革校事會議的這一塊，或者是用什麼方式來取代校事會議，請你繼續加油、繼續努力，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這個心情跟委員是一致的。"],["葉委員元之：然後鐵拳教育主要是反映大家對臺灣教育的擔憂，不是像你講的跟心靈補手、魯冰花一樣什麼啟發性，代表你現在還不知道大家關心的議題在哪裡，所以請部長繼續加油，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員，部長請回。","我們下一位質詢的委員吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-22,26-1","speakers":["羅廷瑋","張嘉郡","王育敏","蔡春綢","陳培瑜","林月琴","柯志恩","羅智強","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","劉建國","黃秀芳","葉元之","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王正旭","徐欣瑩","林淑芬","傅崐萁","林倩綺","蘇清泉","陳菁徽","盧縣一"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-18"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00002","1155302_00003","1155302_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查(一)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員徐\n欣瑩等20人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員林月琴等16人擬具「幼\n兒教育及照顧法第三十條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法部\n分條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第十一條、第十二條及第\n三十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(六)委員徐巧芯等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員葉元之等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委\n員黃仁等19 人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、 ( 九) 委員張嘉郡等19 人擬具\n「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員羅廷瑋等22人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法\n第七條條文修正草案」案、( 十一) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草\n案」案、(十二)委員羅智強等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十三)委\n員鄭正鈐等17人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員林倩綺等23人擬\n具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員廖先翔等16人擬具「幼兒教育及照\n顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(十六)委員王育敏等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修\n正草案」案、(十七)委員王育敏等21人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第四十三條及第五十二條條文修\n正草案」案、(十八)委員廖偉翔等23人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n九)委員葛如鈞等18人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案、(二十)委員李彥秀等\n19人擬具「幼兒教育及照顧法第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}