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各位列席官員今天本席要談的是我國的育嬰留職停薪制度以及背後更深層的問題也就是我們國家的人才危機首先本席必須肯定政府願意推動相關的法規修正也願意增加軍工教育"},{"start":45.243,"end":61.15,"text":"軍工教育嬰留庭的保障畢竟軍人、警察、消防員、老師、公務員這些人都是站在第一線來維持我們國家的正常運作政府願意照顧他們的家庭那我們當然會支持但是我想請問我們的副秘書長跟部長"},{"start":68.954,"end":81.856,"text":"你們真的有看見第一線軍工教人員的處境嗎因為今天台灣面臨的問題不是只有少子化而已更嚴重的是我們現在正面臨整個公共部門人才流失的危機"},{"start":83.995,"end":101.006,"text":"現在公務機關缺人學校缺老師警消長期人力吃緊國軍招募一年比一年困難越來越多年輕人不願意投入軍公教體系更不敢進入體系之後生孩子原因其實大家都知道因為大家看到的是什麼"},{"start":101.826,"end":116.071,"text":"高工時高責任高壓力但是相應對的福利跟待遇卻沒有同步提升所以本席認為少子化背後反映的其實還是待遇問題人才荒背後反映的更是待遇問題"},{"start":117.391,"end":138.991,"text":"所以這邊我們就要請教考試院跟程序部這一次所行政院跟考試院配合人口政策所提出的公保法、公認法、公考法與軍保法修正草案那如果津貼修法通過一位基層公務員申請育嬰留庭每個月到底能夠領多少津貼"},{"start":142.728,"end":156.016,"text":"能連接當然跟他是職務有關係譬如說他以他的奉典有關係取中衛術的話能不能直接在這邊跟全國軍公教家庭跟我們講一下一個月實際能領多少錢"},{"start":156.789,"end":183.823,"text":"中位數我現在真的沒有辦法回答委員這個會後的時候我們可以部裡面來嘗試算一下提供給委員好不好好因為你要我們如果是知道一個實際的數據的話對於政策的推動而且對於民眾民心的穩定是有絕對幫助的那如果今天我把他在這邊提出來就表示說我後面代表的軍公教體系他們很關心這一點那麻煩部長我在會後的時候我們來提供這個資料好不好好謝謝"},{"start":187.206,"end":194.747,"text":"另外我想請問現在符合育嬰留庭資格的軍公教人員有多少人"},{"start":196.567,"end":217.793,"text":"符合他只要有那個要養三歲以下的這個子女他就符合可是有多少人你們有做過統計嗎因為我們只有說申請人數的統計那申請人數是多少我印象中我們的報告的後面大概三千多申請人數應該是三千到四千人在中間每年不一"},{"start":218.513,"end":234.188,"text":"老實說這樣子的話因為我想帶出來一個很實際的數據是申請率是多少假設說只有三千多人可是有六萬人符合這個資格那申請率不到百分之五吧所以說我們必須要知道實際的數據這點來講我覺得程序部跟我們的考試院應該去把它查清楚"},{"start":241.756,"end":255.451,"text":"為什麼會這樣講如果申請率不好的話如果我剛剛講三千人只有六萬人有資格只有三千人申請那只到百分之五的話那我們就要更進步做另外一個調查為什麼很多符合資格的人最後沒有申請"},{"start":256.631,"end":271.196,"text":"因為這樣我們才知道問題嘛我們不能只是給我們一個數字說這看起來有三千多人受益但是事實上來講符合資格人如果只是四千人那有三千人那我們恭喜但是全國軍公教加起來應該不只是只有四千人有三歲以下的小孩吧"},{"start":272.097,"end":287.899,"text":"這個我覺得這個數字數字會說話那我覺得部長跟副秘書長這點還蠻重要的請你們真的要審慎面對好吧我是不是可以跟委員稍微解釋一下我們的報告的有兩張副表裡面用我們到現在只能推過是女性"},{"start":288.96,"end":310.452,"text":"就女性如果是生育她就可以申請那個那個那個育嬰給付嘛這個人數當分母那有多少女性申請留庭當分子這中間不完全正確啦不過我們的我們大致上的推估大部分只要是女性大概都會申請育嬰留庭但是因為有可能有男性"},{"start":312.681,"end":328.968,"text":"我會認為這個數字還是需要去查清楚我們要知道這個制度這個政策下去下去執行率多高是否真的有改而且是否真的有幫助還是說只是我們拿出一個政策出來有一點數字之後就拿出來跟大家講我們不希望看到這樣的事情"},{"start":329.608,"end":348.794,"text":"我不是預設立場說你們會這樣做但是我必須在這邊語重心長把這句話講出來因為我們希望是看到是這個制度是對於現在的狀況是有幫助的因為我們說真的現在問題不是有沒有制度而是制度能不能用因為剛剛這數字沒有出來的話我有聽到一些軍公教基層人員在反映說"},{"start":349.634,"end":371.141,"text":"申請育嬰留庭不只是填一張表格這麼簡單他們要擔心的是什麼單位缺人擔心我的同儕的工作量增加擔心長官的觀感甚至擔心未來的考機擔心升遷擔心回來之後位子還在不在更現實的事情是什麼許很多人請了育嬰留庭之後他家庭的收入立刻大幅下降"},{"start":371.974,"end":401.103,"text":"那有些基層同仁領到的津貼甚至比基本工資還要低那我想請問我們的考試院跟全序部這些問題你們是否有掌握我跟委員剛剛提到問題我們都掌握所以這一次特別最後一個問題有人可能比最低工資低所以我們這次修的法裡面就明文規定未來的投保的一個金額不得低就是以如果你是低於最低工資就是以最低工資算那差額就是由那個我們那個政府來"},{"start":401.883,"end":404.114,"text":"就是這個基金來租款機關來編預算來補差額"},{"start":407.872,"end":431.944,"text":"那前面的一些議題大概我們的相關的制度大概都有做一些針對這一點本席給你肯定因為我們不希望說連公務人員都只能領到比公務人員當他做那個育嬰留庭的時候他們領到的薪資居然比基本工資才低的時候那就變成是說這是我們國家體制對公務人員對我們自己本身的對我們自己本身賴以為生的螺絲釘都是這麼的不友善"},{"start":435.165,"end":453.935,"text":"這會投射一個印象出去說現在的政府對公務體系的每個同仁是不尊重的這個很危險這個是非常危險的事情所以因為我們也剛剛委員提到說我們是不是夠了解這個地方我們經常也有地方跟我一些意見所以我們就這一次修法一併把它放進去所以本席在剛開始的時候"},{"start":455.876,"end":468.145,"text":"如果只是到基本工資的話那其實滿國神路也是一種羞辱啦老實講如果只是到基本工資我想這邊有很多公務人員在這邊如果只到基本工資其實那也算是另外一種如果與時俱進我們等一下會提到這個東西好 再來"},{"start":473.789,"end":501.111,"text":"如果這次規劃說如果雙清通請滿六個月的育嬰留庭那可以再額外請領三個月那這個方向本期是樂見的但是我也要問說這個政策評估做了嗎這個政策評估會不會對於說本身的業務就是剛剛江前面提到的雖然剛剛前面提到的是他們擔心的事情也是所有人擔心的事情像工作量之類的這次評估有做嗎如果說多請三個月我們有擲代了一個制度啦"},{"start":501.772,"end":524.392,"text":"我們政府部門本來就有職貸的制度就是說如果有這樣一個狀況機關就可以請職貸那我們全區部門放寬請職貸了越來越放寬那機關也樂於支持這個事情下一個題目我希望考試院能夠給我們很確切的答案或是區部給我們很確切的答案目前軍公教御嬰留庭平均請領多久目前"},{"start":527.947,"end":546.726,"text":"平均就他生我們因為我們育嬰留學院應該這樣子我們他可以分次請我們不是一次請他可以分好幾次請所以這個我們就需要統計去了解我們大概公部門很難有一個經驗我們目前正在處有一個案子想要去了解這個事情因為我也想知道說到底有多少人請滿六個月啊"},{"start":547.307,"end":563.648,"text":"對對這是有答案嗎目前我們要從資料庫裡面去撈用人去追這就是我覺得考試院應該平均是領5.5個月的津貼因為又有多少家庭未來有能力符合夫妻雙方都請滿6個月的條件呢"},{"start":565.23,"end":590.144,"text":"這個其實我認為董事員真的應該答案因為我們政策不能看理想的情境而已我們必須面對現實現在一個年輕家庭要面對的是什麼其實蠻殘酷的我們要面對房貸 我們要面對房租我們要面對奶粉 我們要面對調布我們還要面對托育費還有持續上升的生活成本過去十年房價漲了 租金漲了物價也漲了 外食費也漲了那如果從組織總住今天再說根據組織總"},{"start":591.164,"end":609.623,"text":"根據主計總數的統計台灣近十年的消費者CPI指數累積超過15%那從民眾的主觀感受來看很多家庭其實他們實際上感受到的生活成本增加可能不止15%可能接近20%甚至30%以上在這種情況"},{"start":611.687,"end":621.518,"text":"真的有多少相對來講領的是死薪水的軍公教家庭真的有能力讓夫妻先後刑滿六個月的育嬰留庭嗎"},{"start":623.028,"end":643.648,"text":"剛剛我同事給我一個數字說以公務人員平均是請了5.5個月的津貼所以因為最多可以請6個月嘛所以平均他請了5.5個月所以我在這邊要強調就是說我支持育兒家庭我自己有兩個小孩我當然支持像這樣作風"},{"start":644.349,"end":663.164,"text":"但是我要問的是這個政策是不是真的在解決問題還是只是在創造一個很漂亮的數字因為如果一個年輕老師一個基層軍人一個基層的公務員面對房貸租金物價跟育兒成本的壓力不會因為說今天增加幾百塊幾千塊就忽然有勇氣多生一個孩子"},{"start":664.532,"end":693.619,"text":"核心的問題還是在於待遇不管是育嬰津貼 公保給付 退休保障甚至我們今天討論的各項福利本質上都跟本縫有連動如果本縫偏低所有福利自然跟著偏低育嬰津貼如此 退休保障如此公保給付也是如此所以我記得上次質詢的時候我就一直大聲呼籲說軍公教待遇調整應該要法制化而且要隨著物價合理的調整制度"},{"start":694.079,"end":696.525,"text":"因為軍工教真正需要增加的是本縫"},{"start":697.694,"end":725.32,"text":"不是只有補貼 不是只有一次性的福利措施而是整體薪資結構的改善否則今天增加育嬰今天 明天增加輔助後天增加獎勵 結果所有的福利還是建立在相對比較偏低的本縫上面最後面還是無法改善真正人才流失的問題更無法解決所謂的少子化最後我也想請問我們 副秘書長跟部長如果政府真正重視人才荒"},{"start":726.52,"end":752.031,"text":"為什麼立法院通過的軍人加薪法案,請消退休金加急法案,為何現在還是不願意附屬執行?軍公教待遇法治化已經討論兩年了,為什麼到現在行政院的院版還沒有出來?到底卡在哪裡?到底要研究多久?我根本不知道,因為這些法治的主管機關都是行政院行政院今天有主管來嗎?"},{"start":756.277,"end":780.202,"text":"好沒關係下次我下次院長諮詢的時候我再問一次那我老實講政府一方面說要留產但是另外一方面卻遲遲不願意面對所謂的待遇問題我們現在在社會上看到的是什麼軍公教警消護駕護理師跟專業駕駛這個七個行業是我們每天都遇得到的而且是每天現在都在缺人的"},{"start":780.962,"end":810.445,"text":"但是如果說我們待遇不提升那又要留住人才這不是互製相矛盾嗎所以我要再次強調今天我們談的是育嬰留庭制度表面上談的是少子化但是本質上還是在談待遇在談國家的人才政策如果年輕人不願意進來進來之後不敢生生了之後不敢請育嬰留庭那麼問題絕對不是津貼不足而是整個待遇制度跟工作環境上出了問題因此我要求在這邊要求考試院我們持續部行政院人士總組"},{"start":811.565,"end":835.236,"text":"不是只要修福利制度更要重視我們軍公教待遇的改革盡速推動法制化建立合理的本縫成長機制讓待遇調整有制度有依據有預期因為人才留不住年輕人不敢生最後受影響的絕對不是軍公教體系而已是我們整個國家未來的治理能力跟競爭力以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:12.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:17.767000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請吳副秘書長跟施部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:18.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:19.730000+08:00","text":"有請吳副秘跟施部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:19.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:19.750000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳副秘書長美紅","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:19.750000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:26.536000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:26.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:28.277000+08:00","text":"主席、各位列席官員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:28.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:37.240000+08:00","text":"今天本席要談的是我國的育嬰留職停薪制度，以及背後更深層的問題，也就是我們國家的人才危機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:37.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:22:59.069000+08:00","text":"首先，本席必須肯定政府願意推動相關的法規修正，也願意增加軍公教育嬰留停的保障，畢竟軍人、警察、消防員、老師、公務員，這些人都是站在第一線維持我們國家的正常運作，政府願意照顧他們的家庭，我們當然會支持。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:22:59.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:12.600000+08:00","text":"但是我想請問副秘書長跟部長，你們真的有看見第一線軍公教人員的處境嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:12.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:21.856000+08:00","text":"因為今天臺灣面臨的問題不是只有少子化而已，更嚴重的是我們現在正面臨整個公共部門人才流失的危機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:23.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:32.260000+08:00","text":"現在公務機關缺人、學校缺老師、警消長期人力吃緊、國軍招募一年比一年困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:32.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:39.585000+08:00","text":"越來越多年輕人不願意投入軍公教體系，進入體系之後更不敢生孩子，原因其實大家都知道。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:40.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:41.006000+08:00","text":"大家看到的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:41.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:48.468000+08:00","text":"高工時、高責任、高壓力，但是相對的福利跟待遇卻沒有同步提升。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:49.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:23:56.071000+08:00","text":"本席認為少子化背後反映的其實還是待遇問題，人才荒背後反映的更是待遇問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:23:57.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:18.991000+08:00","text":"所以這邊我們就要請教考試院跟銓敘部，這一次行政院跟考試院配合人口政策提出公保法、公任法、公考法與軍保法修正草案，如果今天修法通過，一位基層公務員申請育嬰留停，每個月到底能夠領多少津貼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:22.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:28.271000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，能領的津貼當然是跟他的職務有關係，譬如說與他的俸點有關係，所以每個人的狀況不一……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:28.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:36.016000+08:00","text":"取中位數的話，能不能直接在這邊跟全國軍公教家庭，跟我們講一下，一個月實際能領多少錢？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:36.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:38.110000+08:00","text":"中位數？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:38.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:44.513000+08:00","text":"我現在真的沒有辦法回答委員這個問題，會後我們部裡面可以嘗試算一下然後提供給委員，好不好？好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:45.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:24:54.078000+08:00","text":"如果我們知道一個實際的數據，對於政策的推動而且對於民心的穩定是有絕對幫助的……對。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:24:55.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:02.362000+08:00","text":"今天我在這邊提出來，就表示我後面代表的軍公教體系他們很關心這一點，麻煩部長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:02.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:03.662000+08:00","text":"會後我們來提供這個資料，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:03.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:03.823000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:07.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:14.727000+08:00","text":"另外我想請問，現在符合育嬰留停資格的軍公教人員有多少人？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:17.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:22.989000+08:00","text":"他只要有要養3歲以下的子女就符合。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:24.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:26.310000+08:00","text":"對，可是有多少人，你們有做過統計嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:26.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:29.111000+08:00","text":"我們只有做申請人數的統計。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:29.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:29.891000+08:00","text":"那申請人數是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:30.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:37.773000+08:00","text":"我印象中在我們報告的後面大概是三千多，申請人數應該是在3,000到4,000人中間，每年不一。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:38.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:40.695000+08:00","text":"老實說這樣子的話，你們……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:40.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:43.858000+08:00","text":"這純粹只是公教人員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:43.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:46.761000+08:00","text":"我想問一個很實際的數據，就是申請率是多少？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:47.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:51.406000+08:00","text":"假設說只有三千多人申請，可是有6萬人符合申請資格，那申請率不到百分之五吧？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:51.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:52.406000+08:00","text":"假設啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:52.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:53.406000+08:00","text":"我是說假設……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:53.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:54.406000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:54.406000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:55.406000+08:00","text":"委員的問題非常好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:25:52.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:25:54.168000+08:00","text":"所以我們必須知道實際的數據，就這點來講，我覺得銓敘部跟考試院應該去把它查清楚。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:01.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:02.456000+08:00","text":"為什麼會這樣講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:02.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:15.451000+08:00","text":"如果申請率不好，如同我剛剛講的，有6萬人有資格結果只有3,000人申請，申請率只到百分之五的話，那我們就要更進一步做另外一個調查，為什麼很多符合資格的人最後沒有申請？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:16.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:17.491000+08:00","text":"因為這樣我們才知道問題嘛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:18.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:18.112000+08:00","text":"我了解。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:18.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:32.097000+08:00","text":"你們不能只是給我們一個數字，說看起來這個政策有三千多人受益，但是事實上來講，符合資格的人如果只有4,000人，但有3,000人申請，那我們會說恭喜，但是全國軍公教加起來符合資格者應該不只有4,000人有3歲以下的小孩吧？對，我……","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:34.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:40.428000+08:00","text":"數字會說話，我覺得這點還蠻重要的，請部長跟副秘書長你們真的要審慎面對，好嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:40.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:26:42.752000+08:00","text":"我是不是可以跟委員稍微解釋一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:26:42.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:02.147000+08:00","text":"我們的報告有兩張附表裡面，因為我們現在只能推估女性，就是女性如果生育，她就可以申請育嬰給付嘛，用這個人數當分母，有多少女性申請留停當分子，這個中間不完全正確啦！","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:02.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:10.432000+08:00","text":"不過我們大致上的推估，大部分只要是女性，大概都會申請育嬰留停，但是因為可能有男性，所以這個就是另外一個……","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:12.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:15.543000+08:00","text":"我會認為這個數字還是需要去查清楚……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:15.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:16.543000+08:00","text":"對，我們會努力查查看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:15.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:28.107000+08:00","text":"我們要知道這個制度、這個政策實施下去執行率多高、是否真的有感，而且是否真的有幫助，還是說只是我們拿出一個政策出來，有一點數字之後就拿出來跟大家講？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:28.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:28.948000+08:00","text":"我們不希望看到這樣的事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:29.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:30.728000+08:00","text":"我不是這個意思……","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:31.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:32.029000+08:00","text":"我不是預設立場說你們會這樣做……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:32.029000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:33.029000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:32.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:39.791000+08:00","text":"但是我必須語重心長的把這句話講出來，因為我們希望看到這個制度對於現在的狀況是有幫助的。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:41.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:27:54.255000+08:00","text":"說真的，現在的問題不是有沒有制度，而是制度能不能用，因為剛剛這個數字沒有出來的話，我有聽到一些軍公教基層人員反映說，申請育嬰留停不只是填一張表格這麼簡單，他們要擔心的是什麼？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:27:54.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:03.638000+08:00","text":"單位缺人，擔心同儕的工作量增加、擔心長官的觀感，甚至擔心未來的考績、擔心升遷、擔心回來之後位子還在不在。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:04.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:06.479000+08:00","text":"更現實的事情是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:06.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:16.635000+08:00","text":"很多人請了育嬰留停之後，家庭的收入立刻大幅下降，有些基層同仁領到的津貼甚至比基本工資還要低。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:17.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:21.837000+08:00","text":"我想請問我們的考試院跟銓敘部，這些問題你們是否有掌握？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:22.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:44.094000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到的問題我們都有掌握，特別是最後一個問題，可能有人領到的津貼比最低工資低，所以我們這次修的法裡面就明文規定，未來的投保金額不得低於……如果你是低於最低工資，就是以最低工資算，然後差額就是由主管機關編預算補足。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:44.094000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:48.172000+08:00","text":"好，那另外……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:48.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:28:52.234000+08:00","text":"前面的一些議題，我們相關的制度大概都有做一些處理。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:28:52.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:02.980000+08:00","text":"針對這一點，本席給你肯定，因為我們不希望連公務人員都只能領到比……就是當公務人員申請育嬰留停，他們領到的薪資居然比基本工資還低的時候……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:02.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:03.980000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:03.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:21.389000+08:00","text":"那就變成是說，這是我們國家的體制對公務人員、對我們自己本身賴以維生的螺絲釘都這麼的不友善，這會投射一個印象出去是，現在的政府對公務體系的每個同仁是不尊重的……沒錯。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:21.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:24.130000+08:00","text":"這很危險，這個是非常危險的事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:24.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:32.594000+08:00","text":"因為我們也……剛剛委員提到我們是不是夠了解這個地方，我們經常也有地方給我們一些意見，所以這一次修法我們就一併把它放進去。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:32.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:33.815000+08:00","text":"所以本席在剛開始說肯定的原因在這裡，但是我們希望好還能更好……","quality":0.321},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:33.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:35.876000+08:00","text":"對，謝謝，我們會繼續努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:35.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:41.720000+08:00","text":"如果只是到基本工資的話，那其實某個程度上也是一種羞辱，老實講。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:43.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:47.485000+08:00","text":"我想有很多公務人員在這邊，如果只到基本工資，其實那也算是另外一種……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:47.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:48.485000+08:00","text":"當然那個就是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:47.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:29:48.065000+08:00","text":"如何與時俱進，我們等一下會提到這個東西。對。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:29:48.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:07.520000+08:00","text":"再來，這次規劃如果雙親都請滿6個月的育嬰留停，可以再額外請領3個月，這個方向本席是樂見的，但是我也要問，這個政策評估做了嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:07.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:17.789000+08:00","text":"這個政策評估會不會對本身的業務……就是剛剛前面提到的，雖然剛剛前面提到，他們擔心的事情也是所有人擔心的事情，像工作量之類的，政策評估有做嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:17.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:18.850000+08:00","text":"如果他多請3個月的話。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:19.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:32.502000+08:00","text":"我們有職代的制度，政府部門本來就有職代的制度，如果有這樣一個狀況，機關就可以請職代，我們銓敘部對於請職代的部分越來越放寬，機關也樂於支持這個事情。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:32.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:44.232000+08:00","text":"我的下一個題目希望考試院能夠給我們很確切的答案，或銓敘部給我們很確切的答案，目前軍公教育嬰留停平均請領多久？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:49.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:30:57.217000+08:00","text":"因為育嬰留停……應該這樣講，他可以分次請，我們不是一次請，他可以分好幾次請，所以這個部分我們就需要統計去了解。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:30:58.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:03.103000+08:00","text":"公部門很難有一個精確的答案，我們目前有一個案子想要去了解這個事情。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:03.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:09.410000+08:00","text":"因為我也想知道到底有多少人請滿6個月，這個有答案嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:09.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:12.954000+08:00","text":"目前我們要從資料庫裡面去撈、用人去追。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:13.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:15.257000+08:00","text":"這就是我覺得考試院、銓敘部應該要有答案的。","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:15.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:16.920000+08:00","text":"平均是領5.5個月的津貼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:17.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:23.468000+08:00","text":"又有多少家庭未來有能力符合夫妻雙方都請滿6個月的條件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:25.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:31.353000+08:00","text":"這個部分我認為考試院真的應該要有答案，因為我們的政策不能看理想的情境而已，我們必須面對現實。了解。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:31.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:33.034000+08:00","text":"現在一個年輕家庭要面對的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:33.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:31:47.042000+08:00","text":"其實滿殘酷的，我們要面對房貸、我們要面對房租、我們要面對奶粉、我們要面對尿布，我們還要面對托育費，還有持續上升的生活成本，過去十年房價漲了、租金漲了、物價漲了，外食費也漲了。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:31:49.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:32:08.642000+08:00","text":"主計總處的代表今天也在場，根據主計總處的統計，臺灣近十年的消費者CPI指數累積漲幅超過15%，從民眾的主觀感受來看，很多家庭實際上感受到的生活成本增加可能不只15%，可能接近20%，甚至30%以上。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:32:09.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:32:21.518000+08:00","text":"在這種情況下，真的有多少……相對來講，領死薪水的軍公教家庭真的有能力讓夫妻先後請滿6個月的育嬰留停嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:32:23.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:32:36.261000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛我同事有給我一個數字，公務人員平均請了5.5個月的津貼，因為最多可以請6個月，所以平均請了5.5個月。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:32:37.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:32:49.613000+08:00","text":"我在這邊要強調的是，我支持育兒家庭，我自己有兩個小孩，我當然支持像這樣的作風，但是我要問的是，這個政策是不是真的在解決問題，還是只是在創造一個很漂亮的數字？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:32:50.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:33:06.753000+08:00","text":"因為如果一個年輕老師、一個基層軍人、一個基層的公務員，他們面對房貸、租金、物價跟育兒成本的壓力，不會因為津貼增加幾百塊、幾千塊就忽然有勇氣多生一個孩子，核心的問題還是在於待遇。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:33:07.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:33:15.575000+08:00","text":"不管是育嬰津貼、公保給付、退休保障，甚至我們今天討論的各項福利，本質上都跟本俸有連動。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:33:15.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:33:24.077000+08:00","text":"如果本俸偏低，所有福利自然跟著偏低，育嬰津貼如此、退休保障如此，公保給付也是如此。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:33:25.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:33:58.538000+08:00","text":"記得上次質詢時我就一直大聲呼籲，軍公教待遇調整應該要法制化，而且要建立隨著物價合理調整的制度，因為軍公教真正需要增加的是本俸，不是只有補貼、不是只有一次性的福利措施，而是整體薪資結構的改善，否則今天增加育嬰津貼，明天增加補助，後天增加獎勵，結果所有的福利還是建立在相對比較偏低的本俸上面，最後面還是無法改善真正人才流失的問題，更無法解決所謂的少子化。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:33:59.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:13.043000+08:00","text":"最後我也想請問副秘書長跟部長，如果政府真正重視人才荒，立法院通過的軍人加薪法案、警消退休金加給法案，為何現在還是不願意副署執行？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:14.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:19.886000+08:00","text":"軍公教待遇法制化已經討論兩年了，為什麼到現在行政院的院版還沒有出來？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:19.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:20.906000+08:00","text":"到底卡在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:20.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:21.706000+08:00","text":"到底還要研究多久？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:25.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:29.010000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為這些法制的主管機關都是行政院……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:31.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:32.031000+08:00","text":"行政院今天有主管來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:36.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:39.538000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，下次我……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:39.538000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:40.538000+08:00","text":"今天有人事行政總處的代表。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:40.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:42.018000+08:00","text":"沒關係，這個案子我下次質詢院長的時候會再問一次。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:42.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:49.180000+08:00","text":"老實講，政府一方面說要留才，但是另外一方面卻遲遲不願意面對所謂的待遇問題。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:49.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:51.540000+08:00","text":"我們現在在社會上看到的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:51.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:05.906000+08:00","text":"軍、公、教、警、消、護（護理師）、駕（專業駕駛），這7個行業是我們每天都遇得到的，而且現在每天都在缺人的，如果我們的待遇不提升，又要留住人才，這不是互相矛盾嗎？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:05.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:26.862000+08:00","text":"所以我要再次強調，今天我們談的是育嬰留停制度，表面上談的是少子化，但是本質上還是在談待遇、在談國家的人才政策，如果年輕人不願意進來，進來之後不敢生，生了之後不敢請育嬰留停，那麼問題絕對不是津貼不足，而是整個待遇制度跟工作環境上出了問題。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:26.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:53.795000+08:00","text":"因此我在這邊要求考試院、銓敘部、行政院人事總處，不是只修福利制度，更要重視我們軍公教待遇的改革，儘速推動法制化，建立合理的本俸成長機制，讓待遇調整有制度、有依據、有預期，因為人才留不住，年輕人不敢生，最後受影響的絕對不是軍公教體系而已，是我們整個國家未來的治理能力跟競爭力。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林委員沛祥","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:54.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:54.916000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:54.916000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:55.916000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:55.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:55.236000+08:00","text":"謝謝林委員，部長跟副秘可以先回座。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:55.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:59.736000+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請陳昭姿委員詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":217,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（9時22分）謝謝主席，有請吳副秘書長跟施部長。"],["主席：有請吳副秘跟施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["吳副秘書長美紅：委員早安。"],["林委員沛祥：主席、各位列席官員。今天本席要談的是我國的育嬰留職停薪制度，以及背後更深層的問題，也就是我們國家的人才危機。首先，本席必須肯定政府願意推動相關的法規修正，也願意增加軍公教育嬰留停的保障，畢竟軍人、警察、消防員、老師、公務員，這些人都是站在第一線維持我們國家的正常運作，政府願意照顧他們的家庭，我們當然會支持。","但是我想請問副秘書長跟部長，你們真的有看見第一線軍公教人員的處境嗎？因為今天臺灣面臨的問題不是只有少子化而已，更嚴重的是我們現在正面臨整個公共部門人才流失的危機。現在公務機關缺人、學校缺老師、警消長期人力吃緊、國軍招募一年比一年困難。越來越多年輕人不願意投入軍公教體系，進入體系之後更不敢生孩子，原因其實大家都知道。大家看到的是什麼？高工時、高責任、高壓力，但是相對的福利跟待遇卻沒有同步提升。","本席認為少子化背後反映的其實還是待遇問題，人才荒背後反映的更是待遇問題。所以這邊我們就要請教考試院跟銓敘部，這一次行政院跟考試院配合人口政策提出公保法、公任法、公考法與軍保法修正草案，如果今天修法通過，一位基層公務員申請育嬰留停，每個月到底能夠領多少津貼？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，能領的津貼當然是跟他的職務有關係，譬如說與他的俸點有關係，所以每個人的狀況不一……"],["林委員沛祥：取中位數的話，能不能直接在這邊跟全國軍公教家庭，跟我們講一下，一個月實際能領多少錢？"],["施部長能傑：中位數？我現在真的沒有辦法回答委員這個問題，會後我們部裡面可以嘗試算一下然後提供給委員，好不好？"],["林委員沛祥：好。如果我們知道一個實際的數據，對於政策的推動而且對於民心的穩定是有絕對幫助的……"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["林委員沛祥：今天我在這邊提出來，就表示我後面代表的軍公教體系他們很關心這一點，麻煩部長……"],["施部長能傑：會後我們來提供這個資料，好不好？"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：另外我想請問，現在符合育嬰留停資格的軍公教人員有多少人？"],["施部長能傑：他只要有要養3歲以下的子女就符合。"],["林委員沛祥：對，可是有多少人，你們有做過統計嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們只有做申請人數的統計。"],["林委員沛祥：那申請人數是多少？"],["施部長能傑：我印象中在我們報告的後面大概是三千多，申請人數應該是在3,000到4,000人中間，每年不一。"],["林委員沛祥：老實說這樣子的話，你們……"],["施部長能傑：這純粹只是公教人員。"],["林委員沛祥：我想問一個很實際的數據，就是申請率是多少？假設說只有三千多人申請，可是有6萬人符合申請資格，那申請率不到百分之五吧？假設啦！我是說假設……"],["施部長能傑：我知道。委員的問題非常好。"],["林委員沛祥：所以我們必須知道實際的數據，就這點來講，我覺得銓敘部跟考試院應該去把它查清楚。為什麼會這樣講？如果申請率不好，如同我剛剛講的，有6萬人有資格結果只有3,000人申請，申請率只到百分之五的話，那我們就要更進一步做另外一個調查，為什麼很多符合資格的人最後沒有申請？因為這樣我們才知道問題嘛。"],["施部長能傑：我了解。"],["林委員沛祥：你們不能只是給我們一個數字，說看起來這個政策有三千多人受益，但是事實上來講，符合資格的人如果只有4,000人，但有3,000人申請，那我們會說恭喜，但是全國軍公教加起來符合資格者應該不只有4,000人有3歲以下的小孩吧？"],["施部長能傑：對，我……"],["林委員沛祥：數字會說話，我覺得這點還蠻重要的，請部長跟副秘書長你們真的要審慎面對，好嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我是不是可以跟委員稍微解釋一下？我們的報告有兩張附表裡面，因為我們現在只能推估女性，就是女性如果生育，她就可以申請育嬰給付嘛，用這個人數當分母，有多少女性申請留停當分子，這個中間不完全正確啦！不過我們大致上的推估，大部分只要是女性，大概都會申請育嬰留停，但是因為可能有男性，所以這個就是另外一個……"],["林委員沛祥：我會認為這個數字還是需要去查清楚……"],["施部長能傑：對，我們會努力查查看……"],["林委員沛祥：我們要知道這個制度、這個政策實施下去執行率多高、是否真的有感，而且是否真的有幫助，還是說只是我們拿出一個政策出來，有一點數字之後就拿出來跟大家講？我們不希望看到這樣的事情……"],["施部長能傑：我不是這個意思……"],["林委員沛祥：我不是預設立場說你們會這樣做……"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["林委員沛祥：但是我必須語重心長的把這句話講出來，因為我們希望看到這個制度對於現在的狀況是有幫助的。說真的，現在的問題不是有沒有制度，而是制度能不能用，因為剛剛這個數字沒有出來的話，我有聽到一些軍公教基層人員反映說，申請育嬰留停不只是填一張表格這麼簡單，他們要擔心的是什麼？單位缺人，擔心同儕的工作量增加、擔心長官的觀感，甚至擔心未來的考績、擔心升遷、擔心回來之後位子還在不在。更現實的事情是什麼？很多人請了育嬰留停之後，家庭的收入立刻大幅下降，有些基層同仁領到的津貼甚至比基本工資還要低。我想請問我們的考試院跟銓敘部，這些問題你們是否有掌握？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到的問題我們都有掌握，特別是最後一個問題，可能有人領到的津貼比最低工資低，所以我們這次修的法裡面就明文規定，未來的投保金額不得低於……如果你是低於最低工資，就是以最低工資算，然後差額就是由主管機關編預算補足。"],["林委員沛祥：好，那另外……"],["施部長能傑：前面的一些議題，我們相關的制度大概都有做一些處理。"],["林委員沛祥：針對這一點，本席給你肯定，因為我們不希望連公務人員都只能領到比……就是當公務人員申請育嬰留停，他們領到的薪資居然比基本工資還低的時候……"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["林委員沛祥：那就變成是說，這是我們國家的體制對公務人員、對我們自己本身賴以維生的螺絲釘都這麼的不友善，這會投射一個印象出去是，現在的政府對公務體系的每個同仁是不尊重的……"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["林委員沛祥：這很危險，這個是非常危險的事情。"],["施部長能傑：因為我們也……剛剛委員提到我們是不是夠了解這個地方，我們經常也有地方給我們一些意見，所以這一次修法我們就一併把它放進去。"],["林委員沛祥：所以本席在剛開始說肯定的原因在這裡，但是我們希望好還能更好……"],["施部長能傑：對，謝謝，我們會繼續努力。"],["林委員沛祥：如果只是到基本工資的話，那其實某個程度上也是一種羞辱，老實講。我想有很多公務人員在這邊，如果只到基本工資，其實那也算是另外一種……"],["施部長能傑：當然那個就是……"],["林委員沛祥：如何與時俱進，我們等一下會提到這個東西。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["林委員沛祥：再來，這次規劃如果雙親都請滿6個月的育嬰留停，可以再額外請領3個月，這個方向本席是樂見的，但是我也要問，這個政策評估做了嗎？這個政策評估會不會對本身的業務……就是剛剛前面提到的，雖然剛剛前面提到，他們擔心的事情也是所有人擔心的事情，像工作量之類的，政策評估有做嗎？如果他多請3個月的話。"],["施部長能傑：我們有職代的制度，政府部門本來就有職代的制度，如果有這樣一個狀況，機關就可以請職代，我們銓敘部對於請職代的部分越來越放寬，機關也樂於支持這個事情。"],["林委員沛祥：我的下一個題目希望考試院能夠給我們很確切的答案，或銓敘部給我們很確切的答案，目前軍公教育嬰留停平均請領多久？"],["施部長能傑：因為育嬰留停……應該這樣講，他可以分次請，我們不是一次請，他可以分好幾次請，所以這個部分我們就需要統計去了解。公部門很難有一個精確的答案，我們目前有一個案子想要去了解這個事情。"],["林委員沛祥：因為我也想知道到底有多少人請滿6個月，這個有答案嗎？"],["施部長能傑：目前我們要從資料庫裡面去撈、用人去追。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是我覺得考試院、銓敘部應該要有答案的。"],["施部長能傑：平均是領5.5個月的津貼。"],["林委員沛祥：又有多少家庭未來有能力符合夫妻雙方都請滿6個月的條件？這個部分我認為考試院真的應該要有答案，因為我們的政策不能看理想的情境而已，我們必須面對現實。"],["施部長能傑：了解。"],["林委員沛祥：現在一個年輕家庭要面對的是什麼？其實滿殘酷的，我們要面對房貸、我們要面對房租、我們要面對奶粉、我們要面對尿布，我們還要面對托育費，還有持續上升的生活成本，過去十年房價漲了、租金漲了、物價漲了，外食費也漲了。主計總處的代表今天也在場，根據主計總處的統計，臺灣近十年的消費者CPI指數累積漲幅超過15%，從民眾的主觀感受來看，很多家庭實際上感受到的生活成本增加可能不只15%，可能接近20%，甚至30%以上。在這種情況下，真的有多少……相對來講，領死薪水的軍公教家庭真的有能力讓夫妻先後請滿6個月的育嬰留停嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，剛剛我同事有給我一個數字，公務人員平均請了5.5個月的津貼，因為最多可以請6個月，所以平均請了5.5個月。"],["林委員沛祥：我在這邊要強調的是，我支持育兒家庭，我自己有兩個小孩，我當然支持像這樣的作風，但是我要問的是，這個政策是不是真的在解決問題，還是只是在創造一個很漂亮的數字？因為如果一個年輕老師、一個基層軍人、一個基層的公務員，他們面對房貸、租金、物價跟育兒成本的壓力，不會因為津貼增加幾百塊、幾千塊就忽然有勇氣多生一個孩子，核心的問題還是在於待遇。不管是育嬰津貼、公保給付、退休保障，甚至我們今天討論的各項福利，本質上都跟本俸有連動。如果本俸偏低，所有福利自然跟著偏低，育嬰津貼如此、退休保障如此，公保給付也是如此。記得上次質詢時我就一直大聲呼籲，軍公教待遇調整應該要法制化，而且要建立隨著物價合理調整的制度，因為軍公教真正需要增加的是本俸，不是只有補貼、不是只有一次性的福利措施，而是整體薪資結構的改善，否則今天增加育嬰津貼，明天增加補助，後天增加獎勵，結果所有的福利還是建立在相對比較偏低的本俸上面，最後面還是無法改善真正人才流失的問題，更無法解決所謂的少子化。","最後我也想請問副秘書長跟部長，如果政府真正重視人才荒，立法院通過的軍人加薪法案、警消退休金加給法案，為何現在還是不願意副署執行？軍公教待遇法制化已經討論兩年了，為什麼到現在行政院的院版還沒有出來？到底卡在哪裡？到底還要研究多久？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，因為這些法制的主管機關都是行政院……"],["林委員沛祥：行政院今天有主管來嗎？好，沒關係，下次我……"],["主席：今天有人事行政總處的代表。"],["林委員沛祥：沒關係，這個案子我下次質詢院長的時候會再問一次。老實講，政府一方面說要留才，但是另外一方面卻遲遲不願意面對所謂的待遇問題。我們現在在社會上看到的是什麼？軍、公、教、警、消、護（護理師）、駕（專業駕駛），這7個行業是我們每天都遇得到的，而且現在每天都在缺人的，如果我們的待遇不提升，又要留住人才，這不是互相矛盾嗎？所以我要再次強調，今天我們談的是育嬰留停制度，表面上談的是少子化，但是本質上還是在談待遇、在談國家的人才政策，如果年輕人不願意進來，進來之後不敢生，生了之後不敢請育嬰留停，那麼問題絕對不是津貼不足，而是整個待遇制度跟工作環境上出了問題。因此我在這邊要求考試院、銓敘部、行政院人事總處，不是只修福利制度，更要重視我們軍公教待遇的改革，儘速推動法制化，建立合理的本俸成長機制，讓待遇調整有制度、有依據、有預期，因為人才留不住，年輕人不敢生，最後受影響的絕對不是軍公教體系而已，是我們整個國家未來的治理能力跟競爭力。以上，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，部長跟副秘可以先回座。","接下來我們有請陳昭姿委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-20","speakers":["翁曉玲","王安祥","林沛祥","陳昭姿","沈發惠","范雲","莊瑞雄","張雅琳","許宇甄","洪孟楷","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留\n職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委員羅智強\n等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教\n人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二\n條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}