{"error":false,"id":["170087"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170087,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170087","日期":"2026-06-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-24T09:22:00+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-24T09:35:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eeac6239dd17b446281f3a14a82ff8d71e228f614125acb84ef49be2458dc0354ecdb07f450427e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:22:00 - 09:35:57","會議時間":"2026-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員羅智強等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（五）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【開會事由二僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.73284375,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.887843750000002,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.49096875,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":59.430968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.80221875,"end":68.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.86409375000001,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.05596875,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.52784375000002,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.90221875,"end":156.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.54534375,"end":183.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.96159375000002,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.41159375,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.17909375000002,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.01721875,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.54784375000003,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":205.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.77096875,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.83846875,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.31346875000003,"end":217.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.37659375,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.84471875000003,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.97971875000002,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.97096875000003,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.75409375,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.09096875,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.36221875,"end":271.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.87034375,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.22846875,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.83096875,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.94784375,"end":292.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.50846875,"end":293.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.39846875,"end":296.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.74409375000005,"end":298.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.85346875000005,"end":303.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.78096875,"end":306.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.40909375,"end":310.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.59409375,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.61096875000004,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.17159375,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.77034375,"end":318.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.32971875000004,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.16471875,"end":332.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.87159375000005,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.04721875,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.89034375,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.25846875,"end":412.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.00096875,"end":408.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.27034375000005,"end":434.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.18846875,"end":423.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.49471875,"end":444.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.63284375,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.38346875,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.78721875,"end":453.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.74909375000004,"end":471.65346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.26784375000005,"end":455.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.55034375,"end":457.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.62971875000005,"end":462.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.48534375,"end":468.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.24846875000003,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.65346875000006,"end":471.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.82221875000005,"end":473.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.66159375,"end":499.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.32846875,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SP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謝謝主席有請我們吳副秘書長跟我們的施部長好 有請吳副秘跟施部長委員長"},{"start":26.536,"end":44.363,"text":"主席 各位列席官員今天本席要談的是我國的育嬰留職停薪制度以及背後更深層的問題也就是我們國家的人才危機首先本席必須肯定政府願意推動相關的法規修正也願意增加軍工教育"},{"start":45.243,"end":61.15,"text":"軍工教育嬰留庭的保障畢竟軍人、警察、消防員、老師、公務員這些人都是站在第一線來維持我們國家的正常運作政府願意照顧他們的家庭那我們當然會支持但是我想請問我們的副秘書長跟部長"},{"start":68.954,"end":81.856,"text":"你們真的有看見第一線軍工教人員的處境嗎因為今天台灣面臨的問題不是只有少子化而已更嚴重的是我們現在正面臨整個公共部門人才流失的危機"},{"start":83.995,"end":101.006,"text":"現在公務機關缺人學校缺老師警消長期人力吃緊國軍招募一年比一年困難越來越多年輕人不願意投入軍公教體系更不敢進入體系之後生孩子原因其實大家都知道因為大家看到的是什麼"},{"start":101.826,"end":116.071,"text":"高工時高責任高壓力但是相應對的福利跟待遇卻沒有同步提升所以本席認為少子化背後反映的其實還是待遇問題人才荒背後反映的更是待遇問題"},{"start":117.391,"end":138.991,"text":"所以這邊我們就要請教考試院跟程序部這一次所行政院跟考試院配合人口政策所提出的公保法、公認法、公考法與軍保法修正草案那如果津貼修法通過一位基層公務員申請育嬰留庭每個月到底能夠領多少津貼"},{"start":142.728,"end":156.016,"text":"能連接當然跟他是職務有關係譬如說他以他的奉典有關係取中衛術的話能不能直接在這邊跟全國軍公教家庭跟我們講一下一個月實際能領多少錢"},{"start":156.789,"end":183.823,"text":"中位數我現在真的沒有辦法回答委員這個會後的時候我們可以部裡面來嘗試算一下提供給委員好不好好因為你要我們如果是知道一個實際的數據的話對於政策的推動而且對於民眾民心的穩定是有絕對幫助的那如果今天我把他在這邊提出來就表示說我後面代表的軍公教體系他們很關心這一點那麻煩部長我在會後的時候我們來提供這個資料好不好好謝謝"},{"start":187.206,"end":194.747,"text":"另外我想請問現在符合育嬰留庭資格的軍公教人員有多少人"},{"start":196.567,"end":217.793,"text":"符合他只要有那個要養三歲以下的這個子女他就符合可是有多少人你們有做過統計嗎因為我們只有說申請人數的統計那申請人數是多少我印象中我們的報告的後面大概三千多申請人數應該是三千到四千人在中間每年不一"},{"start":218.513,"end":234.188,"text":"老實說這樣子的話因為我想帶出來一個很實際的數據是申請率是多少假設說只有三千多人可是有六萬人符合這個資格那申請率不到百分之五吧所以說我們必須要知道實際的數據這點來講我覺得程序部跟我們的考試院應該去把它查清楚"},{"start":241.756,"end":255.451,"text":"為什麼會這樣講如果申請率不好的話如果我剛剛講三千人只有六萬人有資格只有三千人申請那只到百分之五的話那我們就要更進步做另外一個調查為什麼很多符合資格的人最後沒有申請"},{"start":256.631,"end":271.196,"text":"因為這樣我們才知道問題嘛我們不能只是給我們一個數字說這看起來有三千多人受益但是事實上來講符合資格人如果只是四千人那有三千人那我們恭喜但是全國軍公教加起來應該不只是只有四千人有三歲以下的小孩吧"},{"start":272.097,"end":287.899,"text":"這個我覺得這個數字數字會說話那我覺得部長跟副秘書長這點還蠻重要的請你們真的要審慎面對好吧我是不是可以跟委員稍微解釋一下我們的報告的有兩張副表裡面用我們到現在只能推過是女性"},{"start":288.96,"end":310.452,"text":"就女性如果是生育她就可以申請那個那個那個育嬰給付嘛這個人數當分母那有多少女性申請留庭當分子這中間不完全正確啦不過我們的我們大致上的推估大部分只要是女性大概都會申請育嬰留庭但是因為有可能有男性"},{"start":312.681,"end":328.968,"text":"我會認為這個數字還是需要去查清楚我們要知道這個制度這個政策下去下去執行率多高是否真的有改而且是否真的有幫助還是說只是我們拿出一個政策出來有一點數字之後就拿出來跟大家講我們不希望看到這樣的事情"},{"start":329.608,"end":348.794,"text":"我不是預設立場說你們會這樣做但是我必須在這邊語重心長把這句話講出來因為我們希望是看到是這個制度是對於現在的狀況是有幫助的因為我們說真的現在問題不是有沒有制度而是制度能不能用因為剛剛這數字沒有出來的話我有聽到一些軍公教基層人員在反映說"},{"start":349.634,"end":371.141,"text":"申請育嬰留庭不只是填一張表格這麼簡單他們要擔心的是什麼單位缺人擔心我的同儕的工作量增加擔心長官的觀感甚至擔心未來的考機擔心升遷擔心回來之後位子還在不在更現實的事情是什麼許很多人請了育嬰留庭之後他家庭的收入立刻大幅下降"},{"start":371.974,"end":401.103,"text":"那有些基層同仁領到的津貼甚至比基本工資還要低那我想請問我們的考試院跟全序部這些問題你們是否有掌握我跟委員剛剛提到問題我們都掌握所以這一次特別最後一個問題有人可能比最低工資低所以我們這次修的法裡面就明文規定未來的投保的一個金額不得低就是以如果你是低於最低工資就是以最低工資算那差額就是由那個我們那個政府來"},{"start":401.883,"end":404.114,"text":"就是這個基金來租款機關來編預算來補差額"},{"start":407.872,"end":431.944,"text":"那前面的一些議題大概我們的相關的制度大概都有做一些針對這一點本席給你肯定因為我們不希望說連公務人員都只能領到比公務人員當他做那個育嬰留庭的時候他們領到的薪資居然比基本工資才低的時候那就變成是說這是我們國家體制對公務人員對我們自己本身的對我們自己本身賴以為生的螺絲釘都是這麼的不友善"},{"start":435.165,"end":453.935,"text":"這會投射一個印象出去說現在的政府對公務體系的每個同仁是不尊重的這個很危險這個是非常危險的事情所以因為我們也剛剛委員提到說我們是不是夠了解這個地方我們經常也有地方跟我一些意見所以我們就這一次修法一併把它放進去所以本席在剛開始的時候"},{"start":455.876,"end":468.145,"text":"如果只是到基本工資的話那其實滿國神路也是一種羞辱啦老實講如果只是到基本工資我想這邊有很多公務人員在這邊如果只到基本工資其實那也算是另外一種如果與時俱進我們等一下會提到這個東西好 再來"},{"start":473.789,"end":501.111,"text":"如果這次規劃說如果雙清通請滿六個月的育嬰留庭那可以再額外請領三個月那這個方向本期是樂見的但是我也要問說這個政策評估做了嗎這個政策評估會不會對於說本身的業務就是剛剛江前面提到的雖然剛剛前面提到的是他們擔心的事情也是所有人擔心的事情像工作量之類的這次評估有做嗎如果說多請三個月我們有擲代了一個制度啦"},{"start":501.772,"end":524.392,"text":"我們政府部門本來就有職貸的制度就是說如果有這樣一個狀況機關就可以請職貸那我們全區部門放寬請職貸了越來越放寬那機關也樂於支持這個事情下一個題目我希望考試院能夠給我們很確切的答案或是區部給我們很確切的答案目前軍公教御嬰留庭平均請領多久目前"},{"start":527.947,"end":546.726,"text":"平均就他生我們因為我們育嬰留學院應該這樣子我們他可以分次請我們不是一次請他可以分好幾次請所以這個我們就需要統計去了解我們大概公部門很難有一個經驗我們目前正在處有一個案子想要去了解這個事情因為我也想知道說到底有多少人請滿六個月啊"},{"start":547.307,"end":563.648,"text":"對對這是有答案嗎目前我們要從資料庫裡面去撈用人去追這就是我覺得考試院應該平均是領5.5個月的津貼因為又有多少家庭未來有能力符合夫妻雙方都請滿6個月的條件呢"},{"start":565.23,"end":590.144,"text":"這個其實我認為董事員真的應該答案因為我們政策不能看理想的情境而已我們必須面對現實現在一個年輕家庭要面對的是什麼其實蠻殘酷的我們要面對房貸 我們要面對房租我們要面對奶粉 我們要面對調布我們還要面對托育費還有持續上升的生活成本過去十年房價漲了 租金漲了物價也漲了 外食費也漲了那如果從組織總住今天再說根據組織總"},{"start":591.164,"end":609.623,"text":"根據主計總數的統計台灣近十年的消費者CPI指數累積超過15%那從民眾的主觀感受來看很多家庭其實他們實際上感受到的生活成本增加可能不止15%可能接近20%甚至30%以上在這種情況"},{"start":611.687,"end":621.518,"text":"真的有多少相對來講領的是死薪水的軍公教家庭真的有能力讓夫妻先後刑滿六個月的育嬰留庭嗎"},{"start":623.028,"end":643.648,"text":"剛剛我同事給我一個數字說以公務人員平均是請了5.5個月的津貼所以因為最多可以請6個月嘛所以平均他請了5.5個月所以我在這邊要強調就是說我支持育兒家庭我自己有兩個小孩我當然支持像這樣作風"},{"start":644.349,"end":663.164,"text":"但是我要問的是這個政策是不是真的在解決問題還是只是在創造一個很漂亮的數字因為如果一個年輕老師一個基層軍人一個基層的公務員面對房貸租金物價跟育兒成本的壓力不會因為說今天增加幾百塊幾千塊就忽然有勇氣多生一個孩子"},{"start":664.532,"end":693.619,"text":"核心的問題還是在於待遇不管是育嬰津貼 公保給付 退休保障甚至我們今天討論的各項福利本質上都跟本縫有連動如果本縫偏低所有福利自然跟著偏低育嬰津貼如此 退休保障如此公保給付也是如此所以我記得上次質詢的時候我就一直大聲呼籲說軍公教待遇調整應該要法制化而且要隨著物價合理的調整制度"},{"start":694.079,"end":696.525,"text":"因為軍工教真正需要增加的是本縫"},{"start":697.694,"end":725.32,"text":"不是只有補貼 不是只有一次性的福利措施而是整體薪資結構的改善否則今天增加育嬰今天 明天增加輔助後天增加獎勵 結果所有的福利還是建立在相對比較偏低的本縫上面最後面還是無法改善真正人才流失的問題更無法解決所謂的少子化最後我也想請問我們 副秘書長跟部長如果政府真正重視人才荒"},{"start":726.52,"end":752.031,"text":"為什麼立法院通過的軍人加薪法案,請消退休金加急法案,為何現在還是不願意附屬執行?軍公教待遇法治化已經討論兩年了,為什麼到現在行政院的院版還沒有出來?到底卡在哪裡?到底要研究多久?我根本不知道,因為這些法治的主管機關都是行政院行政院今天有主管來嗎?"},{"start":756.277,"end":780.202,"text":"好沒關係下次我下次院長諮詢的時候我再問一次那我老實講政府一方面說要留產但是另外一方面卻遲遲不願意面對所謂的待遇問題我們現在在社會上看到的是什麼軍公教警消護駕護理師跟專業駕駛這個七個行業是我們每天都遇得到的而且是每天現在都在缺人的"},{"start":780.962,"end":810.445,"text":"但是如果說我們待遇不提升那又要留住人才這不是互製相矛盾嗎所以我要再次強調今天我們談的是育嬰留庭制度表面上談的是少子化但是本質上還是在談待遇在談國家的人才政策如果年輕人不願意進來進來之後不敢生生了之後不敢請育嬰留庭那麼問題絕對不是津貼不足而是整個待遇制度跟工作環境上出了問題因此我要求在這邊要求考試院我們持續部行政院人士總組"},{"start":811.565,"end":835.236,"text":"不是只要修福利制度更要重視我們軍公教待遇的改革盡速推動法制化建立合理的本縫成長機制讓待遇調整有制度有依據有預期因為人才留不住年輕人不敢生最後受影響的絕對不是軍公教體系而已是我們整個國家未來的治理能力跟競爭力以上 謝謝好 謝謝林委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}