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我先说一个比较好的就是有关于我们所提出的那个零限权教育部给一个积极的回应然后通函给各学校我们希望具体的配套措施能够更完整但是我比较遗憾的就是我必须要说从1月19号我们开始进入这样一个议题到6月15号的公听会到今天6月24号随便锁上有三本"},{"start":45.235,"end":63.64,"text":"不好意思里面的内容长得几乎都差不多如果长得都差不多的话各位你怎么期待我们在经过这么半年大家希望能够给他一个机会然后到七月的时候我们有不同的一个所谓的成果呢这里面的内容完全我把它勾画出来长得都差"},{"start":64.64,"end":89.012,"text":"所以次长这可能你们在写报告的时候如果有一些不一样的部分请你要update否则的话我们对于这样一个事情就会觉得教育是百人数人的工作但是不应该反映在教育主管单位里面对这些事情的弹性度跟反应度这让很多老师是为之气节我真的必须要去讲目前来说大家都是还是维持你们还是维持在7月的时候来做一个综合的检讨报告吗"},{"start":89.552,"end":93.593,"text":"還是一定要到7月嗎?發生這麼多事情的,對應火燒屁股了,還是要等到7月多嗎?我們一起其實在檢討,譬如包括我們在這過程裡面聽到的,公聽會還有座談會聽到的,譬如管教權的問題管教權目前為止我還沒有看到,我等一下會給你一一來就教"},{"start":107.737,"end":127.415,"text":"起码在这个所谓的我们的公听会当中你可以看到教师希望能够废除校师会议但是家长跟学生团结希望还是有所保留所以彼此的共识度还是有需要来做调解但是就是因为大家都没有共识所以地方政府总能够自救举例来说目前来说像以高雄"},{"start":127.915,"end":151.546,"text":"他们就会认为校事会议的确造成很多老师这个信心上面的打击还有非常大的精神上的一个折腾所以他们就认为说要沟通先行跟法律会员意思就是说不是每一件事情只要家长只要一开始控诉我们就要进入校事会议目前来说就把一些相关不相关的一些的事情我们先透过一个公投平台把它处理掉不用进入来"},{"start":151.926,"end":180.445,"text":"然后涉及解聘停聘霸凌等等之间我们再进入到校师会议这是地方政府先做但是我们更期待教育部能够在正面表述或者在负面表述里面可以有一个明确的一个规范这是这个我们很多地方的这个部分还是一句话期待教育部能够有更积极的作为哪些事情是可以放进去哪些事情不要所以不要告诉我从过去的88%降低到22%22%对我们来说的话还是非常的多的这是一项"},{"start":180.985,"end":195.519,"text":"所以說他們是否可以用前置協調修復關係分流的機制再往下還有更多老師也希望在調查小組目前調查小組當中的三位外部人員當中還被規定一定要有一個法律專家次長署長"},{"start":196.28,"end":199.304,"text":"目前來說次長我還是先聽我這邊大家覺得老師覺得最受傷的地方什麼你們用調查的思維用類思法的程序在這個過程當中讓所有接受調查的老師覺得你未審先判非常不受重視然後呢你在這個過程當中"},{"start":216.303,"end":245.743,"text":"是找了法律专家,但是法律专家对于校园里面发生的很多的信息,很多的问度,很多的态度,他了解吗?如果这时候能够有家长,有教师,能够更了解教育现场,不是蛮好的吗?而且最重要原因是,你整个调查小组这么有法律的思维,进入到我们校室会议之后,几乎就已经80%成定案了,因为都尊重外部的调查,那这个过程里面就造成非常多的嫌隙,有必要去做修正吗?这才是重中之重啊,次长。"},{"start":246.543,"end":272.109,"text":"好我想委員的建議我們也會納入這個考慮啦就包括那個由那兩位你說由那個學校教師跟教長代表這其實之前也有考慮過可是就是也有一些不同的意見是不同的意見但是目前事情發生了我還是強調類似法的程序跟所謂你們剛剛說那種調查的氛圍讓老師覺得他非常的受傷他們講說有罪推定"},{"start":273.269,"end":289.415,"text":"他们认为你们是这样的方式然后我们接下来看全面讨论的辅导管教的一个方法这个我在529的时候在我们的教师我们的高雄老师发生不幸的事件的时候马上就得到非常多委员的一个支持我不晓得你们这个管理辅导的管教的办法你们到底什么时候来启动"},{"start":289.975,"end":305.94,"text":"法务局你们目前的法务处有开始开会讨论吗里面有关正面表定赋月表说还有一些家长应该负担的共同的这个责任其实有开始在讨论吗刚才陈培文不但强调家庭教育的重要我也同意啊但是次长跟署长"},{"start":306.4,"end":331.73,"text":"你有没有发现现在有太多失功能的家庭有太多整个家庭环境都是需要被考虑但是那个不是只有你告诉他轻职教育很重要家庭教育很重要你教育部就有办法解决那是整个全面性的一个问题嘛对不对那我们要办法全面解决这个问题的时候我是不是从一个最浅层表面的辅导管教的办法能够把它提高到法律位阶你起码能够开始启动来告诉我们"},{"start":332.19,"end":357.762,"text":"不能把全部的責任全部對給我們老師啊家長不願管然後還放聲講話那麼大聲那你這樣讓老師的這個整個責任這麼大會把所有老師給壓垮你們有沒有開始討論其實現在的解聘辦法裡面第四條就叫是依法令行為就是不法就是依法令行為不依法你們可以告訴我這個法令但是你現行的辦法當中你就是有關於違法的處罰的界限你常常就會造成防禦性的教學"},{"start":358.502,"end":376.567,"text":"這是老師不願管不敢管根本就不知道該怎麼樣因為那個界限很模糊怕稍微有一個部分花蓮就發生過這樣的事情啊兩個孩子在打架老師也不過拉其中的一個人的衣領然後不小心碰到旁邊的這個所謂的電風扇他最後被判的是停職兩年這也是完全"},{"start":377.327,"end":402.069,"text":"现实出现嘛所以你的界限你的防御导致所有老师都变成防御性的一个教学还有呢就是我刚刚所提到的你校师会议完全是陷入有罪推定的这样一个文化这是所有老师的心声所以你必须要重视你不能告诉我你已经做了一些的规格了然后真正大家所以我现在只问嘛有没有办法把它变成到法的一个层面来说辅导管界办法当中有没有办法到法的层面里面来"},{"start":402.529,"end":419.177,"text":"我們有在討論但是在修法會比較我當然知道你的法律的位階當中因為正反兩個意見嘛你的這個負面的意見你會覺得老師的自主空間校園的部分會壓縮嘛我們現在可以給譬如說提到那個教師離線權的問題還有將來未來朝向那個治安法的落實"},{"start":424.859,"end":441.792,"text":"還有一個這個部分對老師的權益稍微有所保障但是對家長的層面涉及非常的廣所以家長裡面是不是有一些行政罰款的部分家長所要承擔的角色責任在這個法律慰藉上面這個部分你們起碼要開始跟法務處法務局要開始來做一個討論嘛對不對"},{"start":444.574,"end":464.473,"text":"對,我們會去聽啦,因為很多這個投訴,你講那個投訴案件喔,就是有千奇百怪,因為譬如說最近在講說我們有降低,有人說欸,用那個帳號,假帳號,那個網路也可以,其實在我們的這個討論過程裡面,你只要是假帳號查證,我們是不受理的,譬如說1999,因為很多地方,我們跟地方縣市政府在講,"},{"start":465.954,"end":494.974,"text":"很多1999就直接就转到学校去但是这个都属于技术层面的一个问题真正的这些部分我相信你自然有一个筛选的机制现在最大的部分还是来自于老师在这整个过程当中当他觉得自尊心当他一股热忱没有办法被接住的时候那才是整个让教师崩盘一个最大的缘故所以这个东西教育部一定要非常有积极的作为还有一个就是我真的不知道铁拳教育是不是真的来了因为目前为止行政院有没有跟你们讨论过第五级的保全"},{"start":495.754,"end":518.202,"text":"未来啊拜托这个部分到底怎么样你不是一件事情发生然后完全有个非常极度的一个动作教官你们说认为那是个威权然后呢弄了非常久的时间把教官被你们给请出校园了现在来了一个退休的这个军教警的要来进入校园他有什么样的一个权责"},{"start":519.102,"end":545.584,"text":"如果沒有辦法的有一些基本的一個權責的話他也不過是介於發生事情的時候像保全的一個角色這是你教育部要的嗎這是解決問題的方法嗎市長有跟你們討論過嗎沒有我想那個可能外界有一點誤解行政院那個紀政委在談這個的時候他是一個跨部會的合作他是講說如果學校的這個一般的這個校安人力或者其他的這個學務的人力不足的時候學校有發生"},{"start":546.124,"end":570.878,"text":"學校的校安人力學務人力在我們第九屆彼此當委員的時候我們就已經預估絕對會有而且那時候我們還預測隨著3C產品隨著毒品隨著非常多的事情不斷的氾濫當中學校需要有更好的可以保護的機制你們還是執意認為教官就是威權的相對那現在這個副主席不是 我們現在的校安系統本來跟警政系統都有聯繫如果"},{"start":572.879,"end":579.542,"text":"發生刑案或者說一般比較重大的事件學校請求才會依照內政局的規定當然是因為學校本來來說的話你還要經過學校允許這是一個基本的底線但你現在因為事件發生這麼多竟然行政單位提出了要有第五級的保全"},{"start":593.567,"end":619.535,"text":"而第五级的保全你看里面的内涵里面的机制为什么要动用到具有这个退休警的这个一个标志表示他们有这样的能力或者有这样的训练但是这样就有办法进入到校园来弥补过去我们认为校园需要更多的访问的一个角色吗你不觉得你们提出这个部分让大家当家长团体让很多团体就觉得没讲了吗不是你不能说我们误解"},{"start":620.015,"end":626.437,"text":"幾乎每個人都這樣子 那你話講清楚啊那到底有沒有這樣的一個方式要進來有沒有第五級保全的概念要進來然後他的權責在哪裡 他有這個能力 他有這個法律位階嗎萬一發生事情的時候 他有辦法介入處理嗎他有這樣的資格嗎我覺得剛才我們提過 他並沒有說要強制 或者說要一定要所以你就認為在學校裡面放一個具有軍警背景的 像保全角色一樣這是你們要的嗎沒有 我想這個完全不是這樣子"},{"start":646.502,"end":670.676,"text":"他到底是怎麼樣他只是說 他只是多一個選擇如果學校需要的時候就像你發生刑案你需要警察到現場去那也是要透過一定的程序那你如果發現特殊的個案你需要這樣子比較特別的一個保全能力你發生個案老師就打電話那你這個部門第五級的保全就是一個常備單位不然他這樣幹嘛他不是常備單位啦他不是 他不是的話那老師就可以打電話叫警察進來不是不是 我想那個他們之間有一個聯繫譬如說他有一個對口"},{"start":675.058,"end":693.24,"text":"譬如說大學裡面他大概主命以上那在學校的話就是學務主任以上一定要經過那你第五級的保全在幹嘛他只是多一個選擇就是說我們除了學務人力下班的人力你根本就是你這個少數會不處理已經夠多諜長教育了你給我一個第五級保全來做一個選擇所以他沒有一個強制力他是多一個選擇"},{"start":694.321,"end":708.91,"text":"你目前為止又講不出這樣一個角色又好像不是常設在學校裡面然後對我們個人來說的話他不是一個常設的那你就直接就老師打電話學務主任打電話叫警察萬一需要的話就進來就好了你搞一個第五級目前是這樣子啦那你第五級保全在幹嘛"},{"start":709.97,"end":733.535,"text":"難道是我們這個政委看了這個鐵權教育覺得好像有需要有一個教權單位處理然後就給我們一個第五級保全這個概念進來嗎如果沒有的話教育部請你給予他們一個非常大的一個底線好不好這個權責還在你教育部你應該提馬給予一個非常重要的一個指示我們現行的規範就已經很清楚了那你就是基本上就否定他這樣的說法嗎就大膽的講你就否定他這樣的說法嗎對不對"},{"start":735.319,"end":749.758,"text":"有沒有什麼 就是就是怎麼樣 他就是對你講的第五次抱歉他也接受媒體訪問其實他也提到了那個本來就是不會強力去介入或者說主動去介入是學校有需要的時候可以請求他們會去協助"},{"start":750.299,"end":768.558,"text":"我真的很不想問時間到了學校在什麼狀況需要請求請求之後這樣一個角色跟一個地位跟現有的一個法規到底區別在哪裡如果沒有的話你講這個東西到底在幹什麼沒完沒了所以教育部萬一發生這種事情的話請行政院應該先跟你們溝通你們就在第一線就制止就可以不用延伸這麼多其他的額外的問題好吧好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:12.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:12.410000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:13.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:19.062000+08:00","text":"是不是請次長？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:19.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:19.523000+08:00","text":"好，有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:27.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:27.332000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:28.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:28.313000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:28.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:34.298000+08:00","text":"首先非常感謝召委今天特別排了這樣的專報，讓我們大家好好來檢討一下有關於我們的校事會議。","quality":0.488},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:35.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:47.168000+08:00","text":"我們先說一個比較好的，關於我們所提出的離線權，教育部給了積極的回應，通函給各學校，我們希望具體的配套措施能夠更完整。","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:47.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:34:56.615000+08:00","text":"但是我比較遺憾的是我必須要說，從1月19號我們開始進入這樣的議題，到6月15號的公聽會，而今天是6月24號，我手上有三本報告。","quality":0.51},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:34:58.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:00.416000+08:00","text":"這三本的內容長得幾乎都差不多！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:00.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:01.616000+08:00","text":"如果都長得差不多，各位又要怎麼期待在經過半年時間，大家希望能夠給它一個機會，並在7月時能有不同的成果？","quality":0.043},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:01.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:02.176000+08:00","text":"我把內容勾畫出來，長得都差不多！","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:03.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:34.989000+08:00","text":"次長，如果你們在寫報告時有不一樣的部分，請你要update，否則這樣的事會讓我們覺得……教育是百年樹人的工作，但教育主管單位對這些事情的彈性度跟反應度不該是這樣，這會讓很多老師為之氣結，這點我必須講出來。","quality":0.527},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:36.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:40.872000+08:00","text":"目前來說，你們還是維持在7月時做綜合檢討報告？","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:40.872000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:41.872000+08:00","text":"對，我想委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:41.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:42.172000+08:00","text":"還是一定要到7月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:42.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:43.333000+08:00","text":"都發生這麼多事情，都已經火燒屁股了，還是要等到7月嗎？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:43.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:44.753000+08:00","text":"其實我們一直在檢討，包括過程中我們在公聽會、還有座談會聽到管教權的問題……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:44.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:45.573000+08:00","text":"是，次長，但目前為止，我還沒有看到管教權，等一下我一一來向你就教……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:45.573000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:35:59.737000+08:00","text":"書面報告裡就有提到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:35:59.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:36:12.028000+08:00","text":"起碼在公聽會中，你可以看到教師希望能夠廢除校事會議，但家長跟學生團體對此還是有所保留，所以彼此的共識度還需要調解。","quality":0.642},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:36:12.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:36:16.952000+08:00","text":"就是因為大家都沒有共識，以致地方政府只能自救。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:36:17.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:36:28.999000+08:00","text":"舉例來說，目前高雄就認為校事會議的確對很多老師的信心造成打擊，也對精神造成很大的折騰，所以他們認為應該溝通先行、法律後援！","quality":0.411},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:36:29.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:36:35.602000+08:00","text":"意思就是，並非每一件事情只要家長一開始扣住，就要進入校事會議！","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:36:35.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:36:48.889000+08:00","text":"以目前來說，把一些不相關的事情，先透過溝通平臺處理掉，不用進入校事會議；至於涉及解聘、停聘、霸凌等等之類的，再進入校事會議，這是地方政府先做的。","quality":0.635},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:36:49.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:05.200000+08:00","text":"但我們更期待教育部能透過正面表述或負面表述來訂定明確規範，這是很多地方……我還是那句話，期待教育部能有更積極的作為，告訴我們哪些事情可以放進去、哪些事情不要！","quality":0.681},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:05.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:09.963000+08:00","text":"所以不要只告訴我，已經從過去的88%降低到22%。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:09.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:17.830000+08:00","text":"這22%對我們來說，還是非常多的，這是一項，看是否可以用前置協調來修復關係，並建立分流機制後再往下進行。","quality":0.644},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:18.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:26.058000+08:00","text":"其次，有更多老師希望調查小組……目前調查小組中的三位外部人員，仍規定一定要有一個法律專家。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:26.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:29.802000+08:00","text":"次長、署長，目前來說……次長，請先聽聽我講的，現在老師覺得最受傷的地方什麼？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:29.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:30.943000+08:00","text":"你們用調查的思維，用類司法的程序在處理，因此，讓所有接受調查老師覺得未審先判，覺得自己非常不受重視！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:31.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:37:54.988000+08:00","text":"過程中是找了法律專家，但法律專家對於校園中所發生的很多事情及態度了解嗎？","quality":0.618},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:37:55.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:01.752000+08:00","text":"如果有更瞭解教育現場的家長、教師參與，不是滿好的嗎？","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:02.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:15.581000+08:00","text":"最重要的是，整個調查小組以法律思維來處理，以致進入校事會議後，幾乎就已經80%定案了，因為尊重外部調查，但事實上，在過程中已經造成非常多的嫌隙，這難道不需要修正嗎？","quality":0.514},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:16.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:17.603000+08:00","text":"這才是重中之重，次長！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:19.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:32.466000+08:00","text":"委員的建議我們也會納入考慮，包括學校教師跟家長代表參與，之前其實也有考慮過，但就是有不同的意見。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:32.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:34.887000+08:00","text":"是有不同的意見，但現在事情發生了！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:34.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:42.628000+08:00","text":"所以我要再次強調，類司法程序跟你們剛剛說的調查氛圍，讓老師覺得非常受傷！","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:42.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:44.089000+08:00","text":"他們說是有罪推定。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:45.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:46.910000+08:00","text":"他們認為你們用的是這樣的方式。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:47.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:49.951000+08:00","text":"接下來我們來討論輔導管教的方法。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:50.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:38:57.433000+08:00","text":"529在高雄有老師發生不幸事件時，這點馬上得到非常多委員的支持。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:38:57.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:00.955000+08:00","text":"我不曉得你們所謂的輔導與管教學生辦法到底會在什麼時候啟動？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:00.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:06.436000+08:00","text":"法務處有開始開會討論嗎？","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:06.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:11.578000+08:00","text":"特別是正面表列、負面表列，還有家長應該共同負擔的責任機制有開始討論嗎？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:13.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:15.879000+08:00","text":"剛剛陳培瑜委員不斷強調家庭教育的重要，這點我也同意。","quality":0.542},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:16.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:31.805000+08:00","text":"但是次長、署長，你們有沒有發現現在有太多的家庭功能失常，甚至整個家庭環境都需要納入考慮，而不是只告訴他親職教育很重要、家庭教育很重要，這樣就有辦法解決教育問題，畢竟這是全面性的問題，對不對？對。","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:31.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:40.969000+08:00","text":"一旦沒有辦法全面解決問題時，是不是先把最淺層、表面的輔導與管教學生辦法提高到法律位階？","quality":0.525},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:41.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:46.311000+08:00","text":"這樣起碼就能啟動並告訴大家，不能把全部的責任都推給老師！","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:46.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:50.213000+08:00","text":"現在家長不願管，還嗆聲、講話還那麼大聲？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:50.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:53.334000+08:00","text":"讓老師背負整個責任，這會把老師壓垮的！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:53.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:39:54.735000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有開始討論？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:39:54.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:01.098000+08:00","text":"其實現行解聘辦法第四條規定，教師依法令之行為不予處罰……","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:01.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:13.423000+08:00","text":"是，你們可以告訴我有這條法令，但現行辦法對於違法處罰的界限，常常會造成防禦性教學，讓老師不願管、不敢管，根本就不知道該怎麼做！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:13.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:29.707000+08:00","text":"因為界限很模糊，怕稍有不慎……花蓮就發生過這樣的事情，兩個孩子在打架，老師不過拉了其中一個的衣領，不小心碰到旁邊電風扇，最後被判停職2年，這就是現實中出現的狀況！","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:29.707000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:32.530000+08:00","text":"所以界限模糊，導致老師採行防禦性教學！","quality":0.294},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:32.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:43.219000+08:00","text":"還有我剛剛提到的，校事會議完全採有罪推定的文化，這是所有老師的心聲，教育部必須要重視。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:43.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:40:50.886000+08:00","text":"你不能告訴我你們現在有做一些規格，真正大家……我想問輔導與管教學生辦法有沒有辦法提升法的層面？","quality":0.488},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:40:54.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:00.112000+08:00","text":"我們有在討論，但修法會比較曠日廢時……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:00.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:00.692000+08:00","text":"我當然知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:01.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:07.835000+08:00","text":"就法律位階來說，現在有正反兩種意見，負面意見會覺得老師與校園的自主空間會受到壓縮……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:08.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:11.177000+08:00","text":"我們現在可以給的，譬如教師離線權的問題，還有將來職安法的落實及侵害的問題……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:18.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:24.205000+08:00","text":"對，這對老師的權益稍微有所保障，但對家長來說，所涉及的層面非常廣。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:25.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:26.466000+08:00","text":"譬如是不是要對家長行政罰鍰？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:27.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:33.792000+08:00","text":"以及在法律位階上，家長所要承擔的角色與責任，這部分你們起碼要開始跟法務處討論，對不對？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:36.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:37.195000+08:00","text":"對，我們都會聽。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:39.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:41:53.670000+08:00","text":"老實說，投訴案件千奇百怪，譬如最近在講投訴率降低了，就有人說在網路上用假帳號也可以……其實在討論過程中，只要查證後發現是假帳號，我們就不受理。","quality":0.698},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:41:55.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:00.396000+08:00","text":"以1999來說，我們也跟地方縣市政府說，很多1999會直接轉到學校去……","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:01.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:19.268000+08:00","text":"這些都屬於技術層面的問題，而且我相信這些你們自然會有篩選機制，現在最大的問題在於，老師在過程當中覺得自尊心與一股熱忱沒有辦法被接住時，這才是讓教師整個崩盤的最大緣故，所以教育部一定要有非常積極的作為。","quality":0.543},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:20.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:22.991000+08:00","text":"還有，我不知道「鐵拳教育」是不是真的來了？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:23.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:28.914000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，行政院有沒有跟你們討論過第五級保全的事？拜託！","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:29.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:30.615000+08:00","text":"這部分到底怎麼樣？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:31.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:35.357000+08:00","text":"不能因為有事情發生，就使出一個非常極度的動作！","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:35.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:42.899000+08:00","text":"你們說教官是威權，為此還弄了非常久，教官也終於被你們請出校園了！","quality":0.552},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:43.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:47.541000+08:00","text":"現在居然來了退休的軍警要進入校園？","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:48.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:49.401000+08:00","text":"請問他有什麼樣的權責？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:51.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:42:59.549000+08:00","text":"如果沒有辦法擁有基本權責，那也不過是發生事情時一個類似像保全的角色罷了，這是教育部要的嗎？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:42:59.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:01.410000+08:00","text":"這是解決問題的方法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:01.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:02.952000+08:00","text":"次長，有跟你們討論過嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:03.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:05.053000+08:00","text":"我想外界可能有點誤解。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:05.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:17.544000+08:00","text":"行政院季政委談到這個時，他說這是跨部會的合作，也就是如果學校一般的校安人力，或其他的學務人力不足時，學校有……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:18.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:35.354000+08:00","text":"學校的校安人力、學務人力，我們在第9屆教委會委員時就已經預估絕對會不足，而且那時候還預測隨著3C產品、毒品、隨著非常多的事情不斷氾濫下，學校需要有更好的保護機制。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:35.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:39.836000+08:00","text":"但你們仍執意認為教官就是威權象徵！我想……現在……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:40.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:48.520000+08:00","text":"現在的校安系統本來就跟警政系統有聯繫，如果發生刑案或一般比較重大事件，學校提出請求時，才會依照內政部規定……當然……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:48.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:49.520000+08:00","text":"不會說第五級保全……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:48.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:50.081000+08:00","text":"當然本來就要經過學校允許，這是基本底線！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:43:50.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:43:51.522000+08:00","text":"現在竟然因為發生了這麼多事件，行政單位提出要有第五級保全？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:05.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:06.367000+08:00","text":"何謂第五級保全？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:06.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:12.169000+08:00","text":"你看看內涵與機制，為什麼會用具有退休警的標誌？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:13.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:22.872000+08:00","text":"表示他們有這樣的能力或訓練，但這樣就有辦法進入校園，彌補過去我們認為校園需要更多防護的角色嗎？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:23.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:29.174000+08:00","text":"你不覺得你們提出這點，讓大家、讓家長團體、讓很多團體都要抓狂了嗎？","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:30.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:33.475000+08:00","text":"你不能說我們誤解，幾乎每個人都這樣想，話要講清楚，到底有沒有要用這樣的方式進來？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:33.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:34.476000+08:00","text":"有沒有要用第五級保全的概念進來？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:34.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:34.736000+08:00","text":"他的權責在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:34.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.196000+08:00","text":"他有這個能力、有這個法律位階嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.616000+08:00","text":"萬一發生事情，有辦法處理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.696000+08:00","text":"他有這樣的資格嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:35.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:36.636000+08:00","text":"委員，剛才我們有提過，並沒有要強制或一定要，那是多一個選擇……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:36.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:38.157000+08:00","text":"所以你認為在學校放一個具有軍警背景、像保全一樣角色的人，這是你們要的嗎？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:38.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:38.417000+08:00","text":"沒有，我想完全不是這樣子……","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:44:58.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:44:59.483000+08:00","text":"那到底是怎麼樣？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:00.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:12.830000+08:00","text":"只是多一個選擇，如果學校需要的時候，就像發生刑案，你需要警察到現場去，也是要透過一定的程序；如果發生特殊的個案，你需要比較特別的保全人力……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:12.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:17.693000+08:00","text":"發生個案，老師就打電話，你這個第五級保全就是一個常備單位，不然它平常要幹嘛？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:18.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:18.533000+08:00","text":"它不是常備單位，像現在……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:19.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:21.735000+08:00","text":"它不是的話，老師就可以打電話叫警察進來啦！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:21.735000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:22.735000+08:00","text":"這個單位是什麼？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:22.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:30.663000+08:00","text":"他們之間有個聯繫，它的對口譬如大學裡面大概是主秘以上，在學校的話就是學務主任以上……對……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:31.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:32.084000+08:00","text":"一定要經過他們同意。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:32.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:33.206000+08:00","text":"那你第五級保全是在幹嘛？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:34.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:38.452000+08:00","text":"只是多一個選擇，我們除了學務人力、校外的人力……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:38.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:44.098000+08:00","text":"你根本就是……你校事會議不處理，已經夠多疊床架屋的，你還多個第五級保全來做選擇……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:44.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:45.240000+08:00","text":"所以它沒有強制力，是多一個選擇。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:46.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:52.465000+08:00","text":"你們到目前為止講不出這樣的角色定位，好像不是常設在學校裡面，對我們個人來說的話……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:52.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:53.485000+08:00","text":"它不是一個常設的……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:53.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:59.008000+08:00","text":"那就直接老師打電話、學務主任打電話叫警察，萬一需要的話進來就好了，你搞了第五級……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:59.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:45:59.729000+08:00","text":"目前是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:45:59.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:00.889000+08:00","text":"那你這第五級保全在幹嘛？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:01.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:08.811000+08:00","text":"難道是政委看了「鐵拳教育」，覺得好像需要有一個教權單位處理，就給我們第五級保全的概念進來嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:08.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:14.433000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，教育部請你給予他們非常大的底線，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:14.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:18.493000+08:00","text":"這個權責還是在你教育部，你應該給予非常重要的指示，告訴他們沒有這件事，好不好？","quality":0.629},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:18.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:21.834000+08:00","text":"我們現行的規範就已經很清楚了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:21.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:25.535000+08:00","text":"你基本上就是否定他這樣的說法，對不對？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:27.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:28.080000+08:00","text":"也沒有什麼……就是……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:28.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:29.402000+08:00","text":"就是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:29.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:30.684000+08:00","text":"他就是跟你講第五級保全，搞到全國都翻天了。","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:31.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:41.738000+08:00","text":"他也接受媒體訪問，其實他提到本來就不會強力去介入或者主動介入，是學校有需要的時候可以請求，他們會去協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:42.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:45.262000+08:00","text":"我真的很不想……我的時間也到了，學校在什麼狀況需要請求？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:45.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:50.067000+08:00","text":"請求之後，這樣的角色、地位，跟現有法規的差別到底在哪裡？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:50.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:52.289000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，你講這個東西到底幹什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:52.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:46:52.770000+08:00","text":"沒完沒了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-06-24T09:46:53.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:47:00.017000+08:00","text":"所以教育部，萬一發生這種事情，請行政院應該先跟你們溝通，在第一線制止就可以了，就不會衍生這麼多其他額外的問題，好不好？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T09:47:00.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T09:47:00.558000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:47:01.058000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:47:03.915143+08:00","text":"謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:47:04.215143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:47:05.643714+08:00","text":"請次長回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T09:47:05.943714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T09:47:09.943714+08:00","text":"接下來有請葛如鈞委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1135,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時34分）謝謝召委。是不是請次長？"],["主席：好，有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：次長好。首先非常感謝召委今天特別排了這樣的專報，讓我們大家好好來檢討一下有關於我們的校事會議。我們先說一個比較好的，關於我們所提出的離線權，教育部給了積極的回應，通函給各學校，我們希望具體的配套措施能夠更完整。但是我比較遺憾的是我必須要說，從1月19號我們開始進入這樣的議題，到6月15號的公聽會，而今天是6月24號，我手上有三本報告。這三本的內容長得幾乎都差不多！如果都長得差不多，各位又要怎麼期待在經過半年時間，大家希望能夠給它一個機會，並在7月時能有不同的成果？我把內容勾畫出來，長得都差不多！次長，如果你們在寫報告時有不一樣的部分，請你要update，否則這樣的事會讓我們覺得……教育是百年樹人的工作，但教育主管單位對這些事情的彈性度跟反應度不該是這樣，這會讓很多老師為之氣結，這點我必須講出來。目前來說，你們還是維持在7月時做綜合檢討報告？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想委員……"],["柯委員志恩：還是一定要到7月？都發生這麼多事情，都已經火燒屁股了，還是要等到7月嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實我們一直在檢討，包括過程中我們在公聽會、還有座談會聽到管教權的問題……"],["柯委員志恩：是，次長，但目前為止，我還沒有看到管教權，等一下我一一來向你就教……"],["張廖次長萬堅：書面報告裡就有提到。"],["柯委員志恩：起碼在公聽會中，你可以看到教師希望能夠廢除校事會議，但家長跟學生團體對此還是有所保留，所以彼此的共識度還需要調解。就是因為大家都沒有共識，以致地方政府只能自救。舉例來說，目前高雄就認為校事會議的確對很多老師的信心造成打擊，也對精神造成很大的折騰，所以他們認為應該溝通先行、法律後援！意思就是，並非每一件事情只要家長一開始扣住，就要進入校事會議！以目前來說，把一些不相關的事情，先透過溝通平臺處理掉，不用進入校事會議；至於涉及解聘、停聘、霸凌等等之類的，再進入校事會議，這是地方政府先做的。但我們更期待教育部能透過正面表述或負面表述來訂定明確規範，這是很多地方……我還是那句話，期待教育部能有更積極的作為，告訴我們哪些事情可以放進去、哪些事情不要！所以不要只告訴我，已經從過去的88%降低到22%。這22%對我們來說，還是非常多的，這是一項，看是否可以用前置協調來修復關係，並建立分流機制後再往下進行。","其次，有更多老師希望調查小組……目前調查小組中的三位外部人員，仍規定一定要有一個法律專家。次長、署長，目前來說……次長，請先聽聽我講的，現在老師覺得最受傷的地方什麼？你們用調查的思維，用類司法的程序在處理，因此，讓所有接受調查老師覺得未審先判，覺得自己非常不受重視！過程中是找了法律專家，但法律專家對於校園中所發生的很多事情及態度了解嗎？如果有更瞭解教育現場的家長、教師參與，不是滿好的嗎？最重要的是，整個調查小組以法律思維來處理，以致進入校事會議後，幾乎就已經80%定案了，因為尊重外部調查，但事實上，在過程中已經造成非常多的嫌隙，這難道不需要修正嗎？這才是重中之重，次長！"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的建議我們也會納入考慮，包括學校教師跟家長代表參與，之前其實也有考慮過，但就是有不同的意見。"],["柯委員志恩：是有不同的意見，但現在事情發生了！所以我要再次強調，類司法程序跟你們剛剛說的調查氛圍，讓老師覺得非常受傷！"],["張廖次長萬堅：他們說是有罪推定。"],["柯委員志恩：他們認為你們用的是這樣的方式。接下來我們來討論輔導管教的方法。","529在高雄有老師發生不幸事件時，這點馬上得到非常多委員的支持。我不曉得你們所謂的輔導與管教學生辦法到底會在什麼時候啟動？法務處有開始開會討論嗎？特別是正面表列、負面表列，還有家長應該共同負擔的責任機制有開始討論嗎？剛剛陳培瑜委員不斷強調家庭教育的重要，這點我也同意。但是次長、署長，你們有沒有發現現在有太多的家庭功能失常，甚至整個家庭環境都需要納入考慮，而不是只告訴他親職教育很重要、家庭教育很重要，這樣就有辦法解決教育問題，畢竟這是全面性的問題，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["柯委員志恩：一旦沒有辦法全面解決問題時，是不是先把最淺層、表面的輔導與管教學生辦法提高到法律位階？這樣起碼就能啟動並告訴大家，不能把全部的責任都推給老師！現在家長不願管，還嗆聲、講話還那麼大聲？讓老師背負整個責任，這會把老師壓垮的！你們有沒有開始討論？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實現行解聘辦法第四條規定，教師依法令之行為不予處罰……"],["柯委員志恩：是，你們可以告訴我有這條法令，但現行辦法對於違法處罰的界限，常常會造成防禦性教學，讓老師不願管、不敢管，根本就不知道該怎麼做！因為界限很模糊，怕稍有不慎……花蓮就發生過這樣的事情，兩個孩子在打架，老師不過拉了其中一個的衣領，不小心碰到旁邊電風扇，最後被判停職2年，這就是現實中出現的狀況！所以界限模糊，導致老師採行防禦性教學！","還有我剛剛提到的，校事會議完全採有罪推定的文化，這是所有老師的心聲，教育部必須要重視。你不能告訴我你們現在有做一些規格，真正大家……我想問輔導與管教學生辦法有沒有辦法提升法的層面？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有在討論，但修法會比較曠日廢時……"],["柯委員志恩：我當然知道！就法律位階來說，現在有正反兩種意見，負面意見會覺得老師與校園的自主空間會受到壓縮……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在可以給的，譬如教師離線權的問題，還有將來職安法的落實及侵害的問題……"],["柯委員志恩：對，這對老師的權益稍微有所保障，但對家長來說，所涉及的層面非常廣。譬如是不是要對家長行政罰鍰？以及在法律位階上，家長所要承擔的角色與責任，這部分你們起碼要開始跟法務處討論，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們都會聽。老實說，投訴案件千奇百怪，譬如最近在講投訴率降低了，就有人說在網路上用假帳號也可以……其實在討論過程中，只要查證後發現是假帳號，我們就不受理。以1999來說，我們也跟地方縣市政府說，很多1999會直接轉到學校去……"],["柯委員志恩：這些都屬於技術層面的問題，而且我相信這些你們自然會有篩選機制，現在最大的問題在於，老師在過程當中覺得自尊心與一股熱忱沒有辦法被接住時，這才是讓教師整個崩盤的最大緣故，所以教育部一定要有非常積極的作為。","還有，我不知道「鐵拳教育」是不是真的來了？到目前為止，行政院有沒有跟你們討論過第五級保全的事？拜託！這部分到底怎麼樣？不能因為有事情發生，就使出一個非常極度的動作！你們說教官是威權，為此還弄了非常久，教官也終於被你們請出校園了！現在居然來了退休的軍警要進入校園？請問他有什麼樣的權責？如果沒有辦法擁有基本權責，那也不過是發生事情時一個類似像保全的角色罷了，這是教育部要的嗎？這是解決問題的方法嗎？次長，有跟你們討論過嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想外界可能有點誤解。行政院季政委談到這個時，他說這是跨部會的合作，也就是如果學校一般的校安人力，或其他的學務人力不足時，學校有……"],["柯委員志恩：學校的校安人力、學務人力，我們在第9屆教委會委員時就已經預估絕對會不足，而且那時候還預測隨著3C產品、毒品、隨著非常多的事情不斷氾濫下，學校需要有更好的保護機制。但你們仍執意認為教官就是威權象徵！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想……"],["柯委員志恩：現在……"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在的校安系統本來就跟警政系統有聯繫，如果發生刑案或一般比較重大事件，學校提出請求時，才會依照內政部規定……"],["柯委員志恩：當然……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不會說第五級保全……"],["柯委員志恩：當然本來就要經過學校允許，這是基本底線！現在竟然因為發生了這麼多事件，行政單位提出要有第五級保全？何謂第五級保全？你看看內涵與機制，為什麼會用具有退休警的標誌？表示他們有這樣的能力或訓練，但這樣就有辦法進入校園，彌補過去我們認為校園需要更多防護的角色嗎？你不覺得你們提出這點，讓大家、讓家長團體、讓很多團體都要抓狂了嗎？你不能說我們誤解，幾乎每個人都這樣想，話要講清楚，到底有沒有要用這樣的方式進來？有沒有要用第五級保全的概念進來？他的權責在哪裡？他有這個能力、有這個法律位階嗎？萬一發生事情，有辦法處理嗎？他有這樣的資格嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，剛才我們有提過，並沒有要強制或一定要，那是多一個選擇……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你認為在學校放一個具有軍警背景、像保全一樣角色的人，這是你們要的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，我想完全不是這樣子……"],["柯委員志恩：那到底是怎麼樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：只是多一個選擇，如果學校需要的時候，就像發生刑案，你需要警察到現場去，也是要透過一定的程序；如果發生特殊的個案，你需要比較特別的保全人力……"],["柯委員志恩：發生個案，老師就打電話，你這個第五級保全就是一個常備單位，不然它平常要幹嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：它不是常備單位，像現在……"],["柯委員志恩：它不是的話，老師就可以打電話叫警察進來啦！這個單位是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：他們之間有個聯繫，它的對口譬如大學裡面大概是主秘以上，在學校的話就是學務主任以上……"],["柯委員志恩：對……"],["張廖次長萬堅：一定要經過他們同意。"],["柯委員志恩：那你第五級保全是在幹嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：只是多一個選擇，我們除了學務人力、校外的人力……"],["柯委員志恩：你根本就是……你校事會議不處理，已經夠多疊床架屋的，你還多個第五級保全來做選擇……"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以它沒有強制力，是多一個選擇。"],["柯委員志恩：你們到目前為止講不出這樣的角色定位，好像不是常設在學校裡面，對我們個人來說的話……"],["張廖次長萬堅：它不是一個常設的……"],["柯委員志恩：那就直接老師打電話、學務主任打電話叫警察，萬一需要的話進來就好了，你搞了第五級……"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前是這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：那你這第五級保全在幹嘛？難道是政委看了「鐵拳教育」，覺得好像需要有一個教權單位處理，就給我們第五級保全的概念進來嗎？如果沒有的話，教育部請你給予他們非常大的底線，好不好？這個權責還是在你教育部，你應該給予非常重要的指示，告訴他們沒有這件事，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現行的規範就已經很清楚了。"],["柯委員志恩：你基本上就是否定他這樣的說法，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：也沒有什麼……就是……"],["柯委員志恩：就是怎麼樣？他就是跟你講第五級保全，搞到全國都翻天了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：他也接受媒體訪問，其實他提到本來就不會強力去介入或者主動介入，是學校有需要的時候可以請求，他們會去協助。"],["柯委員志恩：我真的很不想……我的時間也到了，學校在什麼狀況需要請求？請求之後，這樣的角色、地位，跟現有法規的差別到底在哪裡？如果沒有的話，你講這個東西到底幹什麼？沒完沒了！所以教育部，萬一發生這種事情，請行政院應該先跟你們溝通，在第一線制止就可以了，就不會衍生這麼多其他額外的問題，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員的質詢。請次長回座。","接下來有請葛如鈞委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-17","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","蔡春綢","葉元之","吳思瑤","吳沛憶","范雲","張雅琳","洪孟楷","王安祥","羅廷瑋","羅智強","盧縣一","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩","何欣純","黃捷","林倩綺"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}