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袁組長國際貿易署 雙邊二組 管培啟 管組長陸委會 沈友忠 沈副組委"},{"start":1775.14,"end":1799.065,"text":"綜合規劃處 陳淑媚 陳副處長經濟處 李碧仁 李副處長法政處 董玉雲 董副處長行政院經貿談判辦公室資深談判代表兼執行秘書 許崇清 許芷蜜談判代表 黃建章 黃代表"},{"start":1809.502,"end":1829.082,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部國家安全局經濟部大陸委員會還有行政院經貿談判辦公室報告川普亞洲行及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響並被質詢現在首先請外交部林部長上台報告"},{"start":1837.526,"end":1863.412,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 大家好承蒙貴委員會邀請外交部報告川普亞洲型及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響進行專題的報告並被質詢以下提出本會報告的摘要首先是川普亞洲型概況"},{"start":1864.708,"end":1886.741,"text":"川普總統在本年10月26日至30日訪問亞洲先後訪問了馬來西亞、日本及韓國訪韓期間除出席亞太經濟合作會議相關活動並與中國國家主席習近平舉行會談是川普重返白宮之後首度與習近平會面"},{"start":1887.461,"end":1903.397,"text":"那本部級駐美代表處持續與美方保持密切聯繫確保台美關係穩定深化以及我國的利益不受影響川普首先出訪馬來西亞那出於吉隆坡親自主持太簡和平協議簽署並與馬來西亞柬埔寨"},{"start":1907.13,"end":1932.92,"text":"泰國 越南等國分別達成了涵蓋貿易關鍵礦產以及能源的多項合作接著川普赴日與日本首相高士早苗進行元首峰會除簽署經貿及科技合作相關的協議會中雙方並重申維護台海和平的重要性以及反對片面以武力或脅迫改變現狀的企圖美國戰爭部長"},{"start":1938.464,"end":1950.4,"text":"也在會晤日本防衛大臣小泉進次郎時候特別強調美日同盟是嚇阻中國侵略的關鍵川普訪問韓國期間除出席APEC相關活動並與"},{"start":1952.877,"end":1964.994,"text":"總統李在明會晤強化美韓能源科技貿易議題的合作並建立美韓海事夥伴關係那麼以下就川習會的要請進行說明"},{"start":1967.597,"end":1985.748,"text":"那麼川普此行各界最關注的是最後與中國國家主席習近平的會晤川習會在韓國時間10月30日上午11時舉行地點是釜山金海國際機場的空軍基地美方與會人士包括美國駐中大使"},{"start":1986.488,"end":2003.166,"text":"David Perdue白宮國安顧問監國務卿Marco Rubio還有財政部長Scott Basson商務部長Howard Ratnick以及白宮幕僚長Susie Wells還有美國的貿易代表Jamison Greer"},{"start":2003.726,"end":2019.616,"text":"那中方出席的人員則有中央辦公廳的主任蔡奇國務院副總理何立峰外長王毅商務部長王文濤國家發展和改革委員會主任鄭三傑以及外交部的副部長馬朝旭"},{"start":2020.416,"end":2045.602,"text":"那麼有關各界關切川習會是否提到台灣議題川普在會後於空軍一號受訪時期強調從未提及那中國外交部會後發表的新聞聲明同樣也沒有提及台灣川習會實際會談歷時約八十分鐘那這個包括翻譯那中據目前掌握的資訊雙方討論主要聚焦確認由美國財長"},{"start":2047.242,"end":2063.781,"text":"Scott Basson以及中國國務院副總理何立峰前與馬來西亞談判時所達成的內容以及美中領導人將在明年互動互訪的規劃那麼就我方的觀察跟研析報告如下"},{"start":2064.542,"end":2077.137,"text":"首先川習會為觸及台灣美方展現對台的支持的穩定延續那麼針對外界原預期習近平將就台灣議題施壓憂慮台灣可能成為美中"},{"start":2078.42,"end":2095.694,"text":"貿易談判的籌碼我們在會前即看到美方高層明確傳達堅定立場例如白宮國安顧問兼國務卿Rubio10月25日公開表示美方不會為換取貿易協議而放棄對台支持貿易談判代表"},{"start":2096.807,"end":2119.107,"text":"Jameson Greer也特別的強調台灣完全不在美中貿易談判範圍內而川普本人在出訪期間也指出對台灣非常尊重並在被尋奇是否預期在台灣議題遭習近平施壓時呢明確的表態就是台灣is Taiwan台灣就是台灣而在APEC"},{"start":2119.938,"end":2140.854,"text":"企業的領袖峰會CEO Summit演說的時候川普並讚揚台灣在對美投資以及美國半導體的製造業的關鍵的貢獻而川習會之後川普總統出於當日返美途中受訪時就明確指出會中並未提起台灣也在11月2日"},{"start":2141.815,"end":2164.01,"text":"於播出的CBS60分鐘專訪中再次作詞表示而美國戰爭部長Haggis在東協擴大防長會議場邊會晤中國國防部長董軍時後也特別強調美方對於中國在南海、台海周邊以及對美國印太有盟國家行為的關切"},{"start":2164.929,"end":2185.722,"text":"那麼另外我們整體來看可以觀察到美方透過高層一致的議場與公開的言論展現對台支持的穩定延續藉由台美持續深化經濟與產業合作台灣的角色絕對不是所謂的談判籌碼而是美國重要的經貿夥伴另外川習會"},{"start":2187.023,"end":2210.084,"text":"前國會兩院多位跨黨派的議員也透過訪談公開致函和推文來發聲表達對台灣堅定支持強調美國對台承諾與長期一貫政策並呼籲不可將台灣納入任何貿易談判再次反映美國對台灣的支持是一個跨黨派的共識那麼就美方強化跟印太"},{"start":2210.785,"end":2235.285,"text":"盟友的經濟安全合作方面川普此行圍繞經濟安全與再工業化兩大主軸與各國的雙邊談判聚焦貿易 礦產 能源以及科技合作尤其重視強化稀土與關鍵礦物供應鏈的韌性另一方面川普此行也展現以實力達致和平的理念強化美日安全同盟以及軍事合作關係與韓國建立海軍"},{"start":2237.807,"end":2238.368,"text":"那麼最後呢"},{"start":2254.791,"end":2277.949,"text":"外交部未來也將持續深化與美國夥伴關係並密切的關注美中的互動台美之間互信友好 溝通管道暢通一直保持密切的聯絡那麼我們將持續在台美關係的良好基礎上善用美國擴大與盟友夥伴經貿合作的契機強化與川普政府在經貿 人工智慧"},{"start":2278.669,"end":2291.233,"text":"高科技以及關鍵礦物供應鏈等台美具有共同利益的領域的合作以其進一步提升台美關係自判大院各位委員予以支持並不吝指教 謝謝接下來請國安局張副局長上台報告"},{"start":2313.601,"end":2328.412,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位女士 先生 大家好非常感謝大院安排本局列席進行川普亞洲行及川習會後印太區域經濟安全情勢對我之影響專題報告"},{"start":2330.438,"end":2356.154,"text":"美國總統川普10月26日至30日展開第二任期首次亞洲行訪問馬來西亞、日本、南韓出席東協APEC相關會議並與中日等國領導人舉行會談本局緊究整體情勢發展及對我影響向各位委員報告如次一、整體情勢發展"},{"start":2358.596,"end":2371.969,"text":"區域經濟情勢 跨為擴大亞洲國家對美採購投資川普訪問亞洲期間與馬來西亞、柬埔寨、泰國、越南、日本、南韓確認經貿協議內容在市場准入方面"},{"start":2375.532,"end":2394.5,"text":"泰國取消對美99%關稅障礙馬來西亞提供美國農工產品市場優惠柬埔寨則取消工業製品 食品關稅在投資採購方面日本 南韓 馬來西亞等國提出對美投資計畫並擴大採購美國農產品 飛機及能源"},{"start":2399.554,"end":2425.059,"text":"跨国二打造供应链韧性及新兴科技合作在供应链领域美国与马来西亚、泰国、日本签署矿产稀土合作文件强化关键矿产探勘开发、冶炼加工、稳定供应等合作并与日本成立关键矿产安全反应小组共同反制不公平贸易行为"},{"start":2425.839,"end":2453.325,"text":"在科技領域與日本、南韓簽署科技繁榮協定加強AI、量子運算、6G通訊、生技及航海合作川普透過強化產業與科技合作打造非紅供應鏈以反制中共運用非市場手段掌控關鍵礦產供應並確保美盟對中科技競逐優勢二、在區域安全形勢方面"},{"start":2455.493,"end":2478.168,"text":"啟動美日同盟新黃金時代川普10月28日與日本首相高士早苗會談強調美日系最強響同盟國高士表示其與美國共同實現自由開放印太並推動美日韓美日非美日奧運等多邊安全合作另外"},{"start":2478.948,"end":2505.085,"text":"美日外長及防長雙邊會談亦宣誓將強化自衛隊與駐日美軍指揮管制架構擴大日本南西諸島聯訓並推進共同延產飛彈美軍艦船在日本後勤為保其以美日同盟為軸心推展區域友盟集體防衛網絡擴增印太和平穩定二"},{"start":2506.257,"end":2533.14,"text":"增進美韓同盟現代化川普10月29日與南韓總統李在明會談確認將續磋商同盟現代化方向重申共為朝鮮半島和平穩定南韓承諾支持美國復興造團業增加國防支出加速發展軍工產業確保自主防衛能量美方更首度同意南韓發展核動力前進"},{"start":2534.686,"end":2543.113,"text":"強化對中共及北韓潛艦搜查追蹤能力提升美韓共同因應區域威脅能量"},{"start":2544.198,"end":2564.501,"text":"三 美中關係 管理爭議 維持對話川普與習近平10月30日在南韓會談 美方表示調降對中芬太尼關稅至10%暫緩徵收船舶港口費 中共則停止稀土出口管制一年"},{"start":2565.362,"end":2581.053,"text":"增加采购美国农产品 能源并与美方解决TikTok股权转让问题双方易商并援手外交其议程川普称将于明年4月访中习近平则其回访"},{"start":2582.093,"end":2597.433,"text":"二根本矛盾不易解决美中战略互移安全威胁科技竞争等结构性问题难解且竞相强化相关科技及原料自主能力降低相互依赖此外"},{"start":2598.561,"end":2616.195,"text":"美國關切中共在台海南海地區軍事活動及脅迫行為並將確保美盟在印太地區捍衛自身利益之能力看未來美中地緣戰略角力將持續升溫不易緩解二對我影響"},{"start":2617.489,"end":2638.865,"text":"一民主供應鏈協作逐漸形成川普亞洲行推動與區域國家在國防科技關鍵礦產能源安全等議題相關領域相互投資建構合作網絡一方面增加抗衡中共經濟脅迫籌碼另一方面確保民主有盟經濟韌性與安全"},{"start":2641.047,"end":2660.113,"text":"美國與區域國家關鍵產業合作有助我國結合AI智慧施政方向運用半導體先驅產業優勢與經驗推進與理念相近國家建構可信任之夥伴關係共建民主供應鏈及新興科技生態系二"},{"start":2661.328,"end":2683.564,"text":"美日安保加N 網絡加速建構美國強調與盟友共建以實力確保和平並以美日安保為軸心擴展與南韓 澳大利亞 菲律賓等印太盟友多邊安全協作除擴大聯演規模 強化聯戰效能外易加速軍備研製 強化國防產業合作"},{"start":2686.946,"end":2700.963,"text":"美国印太有盟强化防卫意识展现集体防卫能量将有助共同遏制中共破坏区域现状与印太稳定三台海核稳联动印太安全"},{"start":2702.352,"end":2727.09,"text":"日本首相高士與川普會談時強調台海和平穩定之重要性令高士與習近平會晤亦重申台海和穩對日本及國際社會至關重要此外10月27日馬來西亞召開之東亞峰會各國亦連續五年關切台海議題凸顯台海穩定影響印太國家整體利益"},{"start":2727.89,"end":2742.063,"text":"面對中共以武力脅迫片面挑戰區域現狀我國克制加大國防建設並強化與區域國家戰略溝通及合作共為印太及台海安全秩序三 結語"},{"start":2743.564,"end":2768.293,"text":"川普亚洲行及川习会牵动美国印太友盟对中关系互动影响区域经济与安全形势发展本局将去掌握美国印太战略及美中关系动向根据紧密与国际友盟情报交流合作机先掌握情势变化以支持政府安全决策及"},{"start":2770.173,"end":2780.597,"text":"應變規劃提升我國國家安全任性及能量以上報告敬請大院委員先進補令指導並持續對本局工作給予大力支持謝謝謝謝接下來請經濟部江次長進行報告主席"},{"start":2799.571,"end":2812.407,"text":"各位委員 大家好承蒙貴文會邀請就川普亞洲行及川習會後應待區域經濟安全情勢對我的影響進行報告經濟部就美中互動對區域經濟影響台灣供應鏈地位與國際連結"},{"start":2816.28,"end":2831.106,"text":"以及政府協助因應等三個部分二要說明敬請各位委員不吝賜教首先在美中互動與川普亞洲行對區域影響的部分114年10月底美中領袖在韓國釜山進行會談"},{"start":2833.188,"end":2862.641,"text":"在經貿議題取得初步共識美方宣布調降部分因為芬太尼加徵的關稅中方則允諾恢復採購美國黃豆暫緩稀土出口管制並管控芬太尼儘管這些動向為美中緊張關係帶來緩和和新競爭的態勢仍未改變川普這次的亞洲行也和東協國家像日韓等國的領導人會晤達成稀土在內的關鍵礦物供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2863.223,"end":2884.583,"text":"美國正以經濟安全為核心,強化印太佈局,確保美國在電動車、電池、半導體等原物料供應,降低對中國的依賴。我方對美中領袖會談密切關注,樂見任何能有助於確保區域安全穩定的努力,也認為透過領導人彼此溝通,降低單邊行為對區域帶來的可能衝擊。"},{"start":2887.463,"end":2906.338,"text":"持續為降低風險而努力是國際社會共同的期待第二部分,今年全球歷經美中角力、疫情、惡霧戰爭等風險美、歐、日等國考量國家安全以及韌性生產推動去風險化的策略,加速供應鏈重組"},{"start":2907.864,"end":2928.515,"text":"面對國際局勢的變動台廠基於就近服務客戶各國國安的需求進行供應鏈或生產基地多元化川普總統在首任總統任期內對中國科徵301關稅希望減少對中國的依賴那我國從108年起就推動投資台灣三大方案"},{"start":2928.995,"end":2955.781,"text":"鼓勵台商回流並協助台商拓展國際市場對貿易及投資移轉的效果顯著在貿易方面113年我國對美國的出口較108年倍增對東協的成長也有超過六成對歐洲的成長將近三成比較同期間的佔比113年我們對美的出口拉升到23.4%對中國大陸及香港下滑到31.7%"},{"start":2959.042,"end":2987.694,"text":"今年截至9月份則為28.8%以及27.5%至於在投資的方面美國連續兩年成為我們最大的投資地113年核准投資141.3億美元較108年成長24倍那同期間我們對東協歐洲也各成長2.5倍還有1.7倍對中國大陸則減少逾一成比較同期間的占比113年我對美投資占比"},{"start":2988.334,"end":3015.128,"text":"是29.1%中國則降至7.5%經濟部幫助有意願到海外市場發展的企業能夠順利的落地例如我們會提供目標市場的投資法令市場商機等資訊協助尋找合作夥伴另外我們也透過海外貿易投資中心的建立提供一站式的服務幫助有海外投資需求的台商排除投資的障礙"},{"start":3016.289,"end":3041.431,"text":"面對美國關稅還有國際局勢的變化經濟部主動跟各產業溝通並且保持聯繫擬定策略以務實的行動支持產業發展確保企業穩健經營首先在對美是要爭取合理的關稅台美彼此是重要的經貿戰略夥伴我們希望跟美方在科技等多元領域更緊密的合作至於台美談判的計長我方"},{"start":3042.785,"end":3064.166,"text":"談判團隊持續與美國貿易代表署還有商務部就貿易平衡以及供應鏈合作等議題磋商爭取降低佔行關稅20%且不疊加原MFN的稅率以及232多項關稅最優惠待遇總統在今年的10月23日公布了中央政府因應國際情勢"},{"start":3066.14,"end":3094.083,"text":"強化經濟社會及民生國安任性特別預算其中經濟部投入了經費460億元來協助受影響的產業包括解決資金周轉困難提供研發轉型的補助以及補助業者海外新設展示中心服務中心及發貨倉庫等實體據點第三經濟部推動的產業政策會秉持立足台灣佈局全球及行銷全世界的原則"},{"start":3094.944,"end":3120.582,"text":"政府利用供应链的新布局加强台湾产业跟友盟合作因此经济部协助国内产业提升竞争力让台湾的人才技术完整的产业链成为国际企业愿意长期投资共同创新的基地包括辉达、超维、美光等大厂都来台寻求合作与我建立深厚的经贸与信赖关系"},{"start":3121.062,"end":3147.683,"text":"同時也帶來更多國際視野跟國際合作的商機鞏固台灣在全球供應鏈的關鍵地位政府會持續的掌握相關的情勢變化並加強與重要夥伴合作確保印太區域及台海的安全穩定經濟部也會做產業最堅實的後盾協助提升競爭力拓展市場預作多元應對準備以上報告進行指教 謝謝"},{"start":3152.883,"end":3155.966,"text":"謝謝 其他部會機關報告請參閱書面資料想現在補充介紹 陳俊宇 陳委員羅美玲 羅委員"},{"start":3171.155,"end":3180.342,"text":"我們現在確認議事錄請問在場委員對於上次會議議事錄有遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處沒有 我們議事錄確定"},{"start":3186.289,"end":3201.954,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果臨時提案請於10點30分以前提出11點左右處理現在請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":3215.697,"end":3216.781,"text":"好謝謝趙偉我們先請佳榮部長請部長"},{"start":3223.851,"end":3246.126,"text":"部長早部長今年的FA峰會已經落幕了據傳在這次我們代表團從街機到大合照都受到打壓甚至有變本加厲的趨勢尤其在領袖峰會舉行的前夕有傳出韓方原本不願意派中央級的官員來"},{"start":3248.287,"end":3271.682,"text":"這個迎接我方的代表團但是在我們外交部團隊立即的協調努力之下成功化解這項危機那針對這次主辦方接機的這個事件我們事先是否已經推演到相關的這個情形而在這個事發的當下我們是如何應變處理的是否可以請部長說明一下報告委員因為這個事出突然在不到24小時間"},{"start":3274.164,"end":3283.641,"text":"24小時裡面我們必須要去改變對方的決定也就是我們代表團在10月27號出發的前夕那才得知說"},{"start":3285.806,"end":3303.155,"text":"韓方將不派中央政府官員前往接機那麼因為他們是透過APEC他們的資深官員跟我們表達那我們當然一方面就是表示這個嚴正的一個抗議"},{"start":3303.695,"end":3307.156,"text":"那並啟動危機處理所以透過我們駐韓代表處還有我們本部國主司甚至透過美處那麼全力的去溝通以外我們也協調有我的國家那表達這個堅定的立場那對方當然一開始有一些解釋因為我們不是這個所謂的國家的元首區我們就是領袖代表"},{"start":3330.326,"end":3332.407,"text":"應該平等待我這是APEC的規定而且後來又講說因為我們他們用地方政府其實也不只是只有我們因為有其他國家也有不非領袖本人到場那我想這個就是矮化我們所以我們在展開這個可以說是"},{"start":3349.21,"end":3366.604,"text":"維基總統員那最後呢透過接觸的管道那他們反而最後決議啊他們讓步而且指派APEC資深官員會議的主席這大使級的這個殷勝美這個主席呢親自從慶州清護府山金海國際機場來恭迎我們的領袖代表林信義執政"},{"start":3375.485,"end":3394.584,"text":"我們從這個事件我們現在來預測明年因為現在已經得知明年是中國主辦這之前我們也跟部長您討論過中國外交部昨天又聲稱如果要參與APEC會議關鍵在於要遵守一中原則"},{"start":3396.618,"end":3405.355,"text":"不只是對於明年底的領袖峰會我們政府每年出席的領域還有各層級的APEC會議共有150場"},{"start":3407.165,"end":3436.452,"text":"其中包括這個委員會還有工作小組資深官員會議部長會議等等如果參照近幾年的這個會議日程最快在今年的12月這個就會遇到第一次的這個工作層級的會議那我想請教部長中國對於讓我方平等參加所做出的書面保證是否有實質的效力那外交部又如何來確保我方代表在未來的一年在APEC會議的各項會議上都能夠平等"},{"start":3436.772,"end":3457.025,"text":"而且安全的參與是 報告委員事實上在去年秘魯召開APEC大會的時候中國想要申請就是2026年的APEC主辦國我們當時就表達關切一個是不能被矮化第二個就是要確保我們出席者的安全"},{"start":3457.785,"end":3480.828,"text":"因為中共也通過了所謂懲毒22條還有非常多的這個所謂的境外管轄跟跨境鎮壓那更何況到中國大陸去的時候那我們的出席者的安全如何獲得保障所以後來在各國都同意我們的嚴重的關切之下那逼使當時中國的這個APEC的資深官員魯梅"},{"start":3482.869,"end":3503.827,"text":"他代表發函給所有的會員承諾會平等待我而且確保我們的安全當然我們從去年今年到明年我們是可以說三年的時間尤其是我們國主司都密切的關注這個事情事實上如同委員講12月就會展開明年度的APEC的各層級各種的會議"},{"start":3507.253,"end":3525.305,"text":"那現在中共又講得那麼明白就是要有一中原則這個都是外加的 事實上我們在去年不但是爭取到平等參與的所謂中共的一個書面的承諾而是在各國建政之下如果白紙黑字他都可以違背那我想我們也會當然會強力的這個捍衛我們的權利也會這個"},{"start":3532.618,"end":3537.402,"text":"跟這個有我的國家一起來反制因為APEC強調的是共識覺"},{"start":3539.11,"end":3566.588,"text":"我們台灣不同意的話他很多聲明也不能夠通過所以這是為什麼我們去年就是很堅持就是已經預測到中共一旦申請到APEC的這個主辦國的時候他們可能會有小動作過去也一向如此事實上已經在去年之前都透過所謂的兩岸甚至是非正式甚至間接的管道在處理跟我們APEC的這個互動"},{"start":3567.328,"end":3588.965,"text":"那我們要求回到APEC的平台上這個是所有參加的這個經濟體都是平等的地位那現在又有一個安全上面的一個擔憂我想這個是我們會密切的關注並妥善的因應好 那這部分就請我們外交部積極的這個"},{"start":3590.366,"end":3604.672,"text":"關切啦因為明年的這個Apple我相信也是一個新的一個亮點那避免我們的權益受損是好那部長您先請回好謝謝我們再請那個省副主委請省副主委上台就備訊台謝謝"},{"start":3612.776,"end":3639.705,"text":"我想我們近期有看到媒體報導有學校表示政府雖然沒有明確的下令禁止兩岸的教育交流但是透過各種的方式進行阻礙譬如資料審查的時間變長或是審查的不確定性提高等等用緊縮規定和行政程序讓兩岸的教育交流碰軟釘子達到讓各校降低對"},{"start":3641.305,"end":3667.379,"text":"這個我們對岸這個私生交流的一個效果那我想如果能夠秉持這個對等的尊嚴健康有序的原則來交流政府應該是能夠正面來看待的但有關這個報導我們看到是否屬實那陸委會我們政策立場又是怎麼樣是不是請副主委大概說明一下是非常謝謝委員的指教那確實這邊報導出來的時候我們也有看到然後馬上就做了一個這個回應"},{"start":3668.619,"end":3691.835,"text":"事實上報導裡面的內容非常多不真實的這個地方我們用客觀的數字來證明事實上兩岸的這個文教交流並沒有因此而受到限縮比如說今年僅是1到9月份的時候在寒暑假的這個研修生因為這邊報導是針對研修生的部分那我們用數據來看1到9月份的時候我們已經核准了3046的中國的大陸的學生到台灣來進行短期的研修"},{"start":3692.895,"end":3719.361,"text":"這個數字已經是比2024年全年2296人足足增加了750人所以今年還沒有結束就已經比去年整年都來得多顯見就是兩岸的這個文教的交流來說的話事實上是沒有降溫的這個情況那大的這個原則來講我們還是堅持要去政治化去風險化文教交流就是文教交流所以政府還是會堅持健康有序然後並且鼓勵也支持兩岸的這個文教的這個部分來進行對等的交流"},{"start":3720.862,"end":3739.3,"text":"我們陸委會先前也有舉例中共拉攏我們台灣青年學生的七大手法其中包括學術交流 網紅特訓還有優惠門票 企業的實習等等可見他們相關的不斷推陳出新的手法很多"},{"start":3740.181,"end":3760.684,"text":"隨著我們兩岸之間的這個情勢變化確保學術交流的一個必要性統戰手法又越來越多也越來越難以看得出來那如何要來保障我們正常交流的一個自由又加以防範中國對台的這種各種滲透的手法還是要請我們陸委會隨時提出這個事情"},{"start":3761.505,"end":3779.411,"text":"因應我們相關的情形的發生也讓兩岸的互動能夠在一個平等互惠而且跟我們學生不要被滲透或是被拉攏的情況以上是不是請陸委會再持續關心"},{"start":3780.191,"end":3795.968,"text":"我們會基本上會做到一個揭露事實的這個揭露也就是說針對我們的學生到中國大陸去的風險或者是如果真的在交流完之後有特殊的這個現象的話那我們都會把這個訊息公開讓社會大眾知道那另外來講的話我們也會跟教育部一起來合作"},{"start":3796.608,"end":3820.898,"text":"盡量的就是讓學生在寒暑假的這個交流不是只有中國大陸可以去也有很多值得我們學生去交流的地方比如說可以到鄰近的日本韓國澳洲等等所以台灣是一個有全世界眼界的這個台灣那我們應該讓我們的孩子們可以讓大量的去擁抱全世界其他的這個民主國家來進行一個對等尊嚴的交流跟學習那麼中國大陸交流的話我們雖然也不排斥但是我們堅持的就是說要去政治化去風險化"},{"start":3821.818,"end":3831.291,"text":"然後把具有這種統戰疑慮的交流活動盡可能的揭露出來讓學校也知道讓孩子們也知道好 一定要好好保護我們的學子是好 以上謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝接下來請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3845.531,"end":3850.317,"text":"謝謝主席有請經貿辦許崇清資深代表請經貿辦談判代表委員好"},{"start":3858.477,"end":3864.239,"text":"是 代表好在川習會以前其實國人都非常的擔心怕台灣成為兩國談判的籌碼甚至會擔心台灣變成棄子結果一切都沒有發生台灣的議題完全沒有被提及很顯然的美中兩國都不想在經貿的談判當中增加變數甚至"},{"start":3883.085,"end":3897.648,"text":"會後川普曾經接受CBS的專訪的時候有提到說他也很驚訝習近平並沒有提到台灣的議題所以變成是說兩方其實在這方面是非常的節制那現在川習會已經結束了那是否川習會之後會不會影響到台美關稅的談判分析為什麼會這麼說因為之前我曾經看過一個報導"},{"start":3910.111,"end":3934.62,"text":"像之前我們一直都在說我們10月底以前這個台美的關稅會有一個定案會有一個結果可是現在已經11月了我們還沒有看到那也有媒體會猜測會就是說台美的這個美方是不是要川習會之後再來跟台灣做最後的這個談判然後代表您如何看這件事情會不會有影響"},{"start":3936.589,"end":3955.174,"text":"是向委員報告就是說我們台美的這個關稅談判那在九月底十月初第五輪實體磋商之後那事實上雙方其實是有再次進行視訊會議的所以談判其實是有進展的那目前台美雙方實際是在進行書面文件的交換然後跟討論"},{"start":3956.974,"end":3972.62,"text":"那針對未來的協議來先行凝聚共識那我們是預期APEC會議現在會議結束了嘛那雙方之後呢可以繼續的溝通那待雙方達成共識以後就可以進入總結的會商那達成台美貿易協議"},{"start":3973.331,"end":3999.501,"text":"那代表您認為說像台美的這個台美後續的這個談判會受到這個川習會的影響嗎這兩者之間會有任何的這個關聯嗎還是說其實我們的步驟都是照著正常的程序走只是大家所期待的10月底可能有結果現在是還沒看到到底什麼時候我們還有一個結果那媒體也有說可能我們會比照第一島鏈日韓我們的關稅可能會降到15%有沒有這個可能"},{"start":4001.64,"end":4021.068,"text":"像委員報告就是說就有關於10月底這個事情那這個之前行政部門已經有對外說明了因為APEC的會議的關係所以就是在10月底我們知道在APEC之後然後來做這個處理"},{"start":4023.149,"end":4049.839,"text":"所以這個跟中美談判的內容其實是無關其實就是因為剛好卡了個App在那裡所以是其成的關係跟內容是沒關係的是不是對 我們的步驟跟步調其實還是在持續的進行所以大約會什麼時候呢大概會什麼時候會有一個結果還在談判當中對 我們是在談判當中然後一有相關的結果我們都會適時的向國人報告"},{"start":4050.599,"end":4065.753,"text":"再來還有一點我想請教的就是232條款這個部分這個調查報告據說是在明年4月才會公佈美方到明年4月才會公佈我想請教一下對我國的半導體的產業衝擊到底有多大"},{"start":4067.195,"end":4087.571,"text":"像委員報告就是說所謂的4月公佈可能是指他那個232條款他規定的最晚期限270天那但是事實上我們觀察就是他那個只是最晚的期限他並沒有說那個是一個一定是要到那個時候才能公佈那他事實上可以可能可以提前那事實上"},{"start":4090.053,"end":4114.788,"text":"我們觀察就是說川普他這個政府他會依據他們自己的這個步調來來進行這個232調查的這個一個宣布那我們談判當中的時候有沒有在提有把232條款這部分給拉進來是我們在談判當中都是有在爭取就是說除了爭取調降對等關稅稅率然後不要疊加原來的MFN關稅稅率"},{"start":4117.97,"end":4145.302,"text":"我們232的多項的關稅又會待遇這個也是我們談判的主要目標那也是要為我們赴美投資的企業然後爭取更多有利的投資環境跟條件所以一切還在談判當中總結一句就是這樣那時間點目前還未知是這樣子嗎是OK好 來資深代表請回接下來我要邀請上來的是我們的經濟部江次長"},{"start":4154.375,"end":4159.22,"text":"我也好江市長好接下來我要講的就是稀土的議題中國佈局了40年讓它掌握了全球70%的開採權所以現在可以說是現階段是掐著高科技產業跟再生能源的主要的"},{"start":4175.435,"end":4184.104,"text":"這個命脈那本來在川習會前呢也是也是他中國也提出了就是說要要管制這個系統的這個出口可是後來川習會結束之後呢他說要暫停這個系統管制然後呢要購買這個美國的這個農產品等等我想這"},{"start":4195.276,"end":4210.09,"text":"當然這是一個他的談判的籌碼可是中國在10月9號對稀土出口發布所謂管制的消息之後雖然在"},{"start":4212.213,"end":4224.209,"text":"這個川習會當中目前是暫緩來實施可是我們會發現就是說反而喚醒了全世界的這個危機意識因為中國可能隨時就會拿管制這系統作為貿易談判的這個籌碼"},{"start":4227.714,"end":4252.924,"text":"所以我們也發現美國也好跟他的盟友其實都在重塑稀土供應鏈的這個決心那台灣也是那之前經濟部曾經就是說就算是說這個中國如果他發布了這個稀土管制的這個命令的話台灣短期不會受到這個重大的影響因為我們有很多這個供應鏈是來自於像美國、日本"},{"start":4253.664,"end":4271.924,"text":"可是我們的無人機、電動車跟高效馬達等等還是有存在一些風險所以之前我有看到經濟部長在提到就是說政府將加速建置回收再精煉產品的量能希望在2030年的時候能夠達到三分之一的需求我想請問一下就是說目前這個技術"},{"start":4273.585,"end":4297.056,"text":"這技術有開放給其他的產業嗎我們有在研發嗎還是說現在目前是一個怎麼樣的階段因為我們覺得就算是說稀土的目前暫時是休戰當中可是我們還是會覺得這個是有一些危機那台灣如何來應處的這個部分是 我分兩點跟委員做報告第一點"},{"start":4300.43,"end":4317.751,"text":"中國它對於稀土的管制除了在今年的十月份其實它在今年稍早四月份就有第一波所以我們一直是密切的關注相關的發展那這一次呢跟川習會之後他決定要暫緩一年的時間其實我們因為我們的半導體"},{"start":4319.172,"end":4346.739,"text":"所使用的稀土其實最主要不是來自於中國而是來自於歐美等地而且我們大部分都是半成品的進口所以這次的稀土的管制對我們的半導體的產業是影響是有限的但是呢在永磁馬達的永磁鐵的這個部分呢確實對於一些電動車馬達所需要的是有影響所以經濟部現在已經委託這個工研院"},{"start":4347.559,"end":4371.342,"text":"來做相關技術的回收同時我們的技術師也鼓勵了我們的業者能夠開發沒有使用這些用磁鐵的重磁鐵的這些馬達相關的研發的補助已經在進行所以我們也希望到2030年的時候我們可以自主供應的量大概達到三分之一以上說明"},{"start":4371.542,"end":4401.105,"text":"所以目前的話我們這個技術其實已經進到產業界了嗎還是目前只有還在工研院的部分工研院有在做研發同時我們也是跟業者共同國內一些生產重電的業者也一起進行所以已經在進行當中了因為我之前也看到就是日本日本其實它也有提到就是說它也為了前陣子很多年前曾經跟中國管制這個氣土出口所以日本為了想要有這個自主性"},{"start":4401.445,"end":4427.385,"text":"所以他們有研究新型的馬達也就是說可以不需要用到矽土的部分我們有在開發這部分的材料嗎有 我們有在研發委託工業跟業者一起共同研發因為我有看到日本方面是這麼做他說為了要擺脫依賴中國矽土的解放所以他們自己有去研發就是降低使用矽土的所謂的新型馬達所以台灣其實也在研發當中就對了我們已經進行了好 以上謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":4431.765,"end":4438.727,"text":"謝謝羅敏玲委員的發言下一頁我們請馬文君委員來質詢謝主席麻煩請外交部林部長有請林部長還有陸委會副主委"},{"start":4461.707,"end":4483.564,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們就整個外交的這個我們現在進行的方式我們最近看到好像有很不斷的有人在暴露我們外交部拓展對外關係的困境這個顯然好像有意為之我們"},{"start":4484.545,"end":4506.943,"text":"在近日就是日本媒體的報導裡面愛沙尼亞雖然在2023年對外宣布就接受台灣在該國首都塔林設立代表處可是已經快兩年了日本媒體報導說他陷入僵局原因在於民稱的爭議我方希望沿用駐立陶宛的命名模式稱之為駐愛沙尼亞台灣代表處可是愛沙尼亞"},{"start":4512.907,"end":4526.897,"text":"堅持是用台北這個名稱那愛沙尼亞政府在日美查詢以後也表達截至目前為止我們尚未收到任何開設辦事處的申請就這個部分部長有沒有什麼樣的說明"},{"start":4529.094,"end":4542.495,"text":"謝謝委員愛沙尼亞是在今年大概四月的時候國會通過賦予法源所以事實上是半年前我們雙邊就展開諮商有關於涉處那目前是由拉脫維亞轄管"},{"start":4544.363,"end":4563.394,"text":"那對於我們的這個互設辦事處的地位名稱就在現在在諮商當中所以有開始那不是兩年了兩年是他們表達有這個意願就是在政府方面但要經過國會的"},{"start":4564.855,"end":4567.238,"text":"這個通過一個法源的基礎也超過半年因為如果說快兩年的時間我們現在不是在乎只在乎時間而是在我們主要在外國設立代表處尤其是沒有正式外交關係的國家我們"},{"start":4584.635,"end":4610.391,"text":"為了維繫非正式關係推動貿易投資還有促進文化交流以及提供領事服務這是我們主要的目的跟目標那就這個部分尤其部長上任一年多來一直以踏實外交希望跟理念相信國家或者可以合作的這些友邦可以促進互惠共榮深化夥伴關係來達到我們經濟日不落國這樣的一個願景"},{"start":4612.253,"end":4619.13,"text":"可是我們現在近期看到我們外交的就是應該算是一個亂象"},{"start":4620.819,"end":4625.721,"text":"有很多的有所謂的亂象部長你聽我講完拓展空間那是我們外交部本來已經在推動的相關的業務過去到現在都是一樣我們現在看到的愛沙尼亞這個設立代表處這個部分有人也顯然發布了新聞而且是日美"},{"start":4644.389,"end":4662.367,"text":"去發表的另外還有就是在不久之前政府跟加拿大已經達成貿易協議在僑近數個月後都沒有辦法簽署還有在日前外交部這個算我們有提出一些說明還有澄清可是"},{"start":4663.248,"end":4679.779,"text":"外交部在美國紐約高檔餐廳設宴然後邀請高層官員出席沒有一個人到場這個顯然都是有人在未消息或者不斷的刻意的披露所以外交部是不是有查查可能有認知作戰的成分"},{"start":4681.211,"end":4700.635,"text":"這個部分認知作戰我想要請教部長這個查查知情人士是部內人員還是特定的人在放消息打擊外交部跟部長或者真的像媒體評論的可能是川普總統跟習近平要在韓國舉行川習會後然後美國政府對賴總統所率領的行政團隊他的態度已經改變種種的因素部長您判斷是哪一個"},{"start":4710.854,"end":4726.648,"text":"我們當然判斷是有一波的認知作戰每個case的情形不太一樣但基本上要去認知作戰也有可能是我們國內自己製造的認知作戰嗎應該說這個比較新的發展是透過外媒然後到國內放大當然因為有錯誤我們就澄清"},{"start":4733.734,"end":4760.47,"text":"因為以我們關心的所謂台美關係並沒有如棄台論 以美論那個樣子去發展所以我們當然是代表台美關係是穩健發展那我們對於就是說這個資訊流啊怎麼樣我們去對這些錯假訊息加以重新分析我們是有發現有一些不正常的地方那是有勢力介入這個裡面涉及到的認知作戰但也不是說每一個"},{"start":4762.111,"end":4770.854,"text":"這個報導因為有些是可能誤會比如說像台灣跟加拿大的關係那加拿大駐台代表處就澄清了那至於說有關於愛沙尼亞這個那我們也加以說明確實如委員說我們現在在討論啊那個名稱啊或地位或各種的未來的豁免的"},{"start":4778.997,"end":4781.699,"text":"這個特權等等我們是開放的態度在談那個說明我們都有看過我們現在是在短期之內都是外銷轉內銷尤其都是外國的媒體不管CNN也好除非CNN是錯假訊息"},{"start":4794.785,"end":4801.371,"text":"那是他發布的這是美國的事實證明那是錯假訊息因為我就是在華府我就在美國啦我不要講華府是在紐約沒關係那個我們有看過你的反駁我現在說的是連續發出這樣子的一個消息不管他是錯假的也好故意打擊也好如果外交部在推展外交事務相關的業務我們內部的"},{"start":4820.247,"end":4842.077,"text":"剛剛我問的是是部內人員還是特定人士部長顯然沒有回答這個部分因為我們要知道的是有沒有掌握到底是誰在放這樣的消息打擊我們的外交所有的努力有一些是因為我們國內媒體引用外媒那我們有去追蹤這個資訊流就是說這個訊息是怎麼樣那外媒為什麼會暴露出來"},{"start":4842.637,"end":4868.119,"text":"那就他的來源管道嘛他的來源管道有沒有掌握因為一而再再而三的打擊我們有適當的掌握對部長也好對外交部也好有適當的掌握可以制止了嗎甚至遊說的團體我們也都有掌握遊說的團體是誰被是我們內部的人員去遊說的嗎或者放這個消息因為會有這樣子的訊息其實很明顯的是我們自己可能相關掌握的內部人員"},{"start":4871.141,"end":4875.969,"text":"所以這個部分我們在這裡提醒我們也都有在檢視會不會再發生"},{"start":4878.154,"end":4903.333,"text":"我們要假設它還會再發生我們能夠妥善的來因應所以您只能不斷不斷的反駁去說明那就媒體試圖喔我們也要讓國內外都了解啊沒關係 我們現在要講的是如果這是內部的而且是國內的而且是特定有心的人士在製造我們這樣外交的混亂或者為了藉由打擊外交部或部長"},{"start":4904.834,"end":4917.949,"text":"這樣子影響我們整個外交的一個推動這是不能接受的所以這個部分外交部不是只有一直反駁你必須要提出來如果這個消息你都已經有掌握要不要公布一下這看哪一件事情啊"},{"start":4921.192,"end":4929.364,"text":"委員指的是 因為就太多件了三件 要不然你三件都講嘛三件都掌握了嘛 三件都講掌握了是誰你包括遊說團體都掌握了是誰以CNN來講 因為"},{"start":4935.652,"end":4943.158,"text":"其實主辦單位都有報我在紐約啊也許有照片為什麼他會去引用然後經過一連串的發展變成我們請客沒人出席啊這個完全跟事實顛倒我要說的是你剛剛說已經掌握遊說的團體或者放話的人我現在說這個人是誰或這個遊說團體你應該要對外說明"},{"start":4959.827,"end":4988.2,"text":"就杜益錦就是他就有分析這個CNN然後透過國內的媒體的這個所謂的傳播的管道然後怎麼被放大然後最後變成真身殺人這個就是一個個案那我們就開始研究個案做跟國際當然也要去做解釋嘛因為要媒體試讀那有一些可能是是不是不小心去放大還是有些人是刻意去操作"},{"start":4989.14,"end":5002.331,"text":"我們當然會盡力不去把背後的原因找出來所以你覺得是刻意操作放大還是不小心有些是可能意識形態有些是可能這個刻意的都有"},{"start":5003.919,"end":5026.971,"text":"好模擬兩可喔如果是部長這樣的說法顯然你接下來還是要持續面對外交部也是如果是這樣外交如果受到這麼多的妨礙尤其是內部產生的那我認為其實我們的外交預算有些就被浪費掉了因為你在花錢的當下有很多刻意的阻撓就影響我們預算因為你花大錢"},{"start":5027.911,"end":5035.798,"text":"結果你的成果是不如預期或者還是被扭曲那我們在預算上面其實我覺得是浪費了尤其我們年年在增加的狀況之下外交部其實這個部分我們要的不是你剛剛大家聽不懂的這樣的說明我們要的是這個到底是為什麼是內鬥我們不能忍受的是內鬥的部分你外面的外在的因素就已經非常多了我簡單再請問一下那個陸委會"},{"start":5056.583,"end":5082.369,"text":"APEC那個明年我們會不會參加是委員好明年APEC我們當然爭取參加一定是尋利來參加在維護國家尊嚴什麼樣的狀況會影響如果中方還是要刻意打壓譬如說他們昨天也有放話說要在一中原則的情況下但我們發現說一中原則其實不是我們APEC參加的一個過去的一個慣例所以有可能因為這樣我們就不參加"},{"start":5083.628,"end":5092.617,"text":"我們現在不能夠去做那個因為你必須要做一些沙盤推演在什麼樣的情況之下因為我們主要為了經濟發展這個當初設立的目的大家可以做很多的一個相關的一個交流那這個部分所以我們現在主要是要了解到明年因為畢竟是大陸主辦"},{"start":5106.65,"end":5121.875,"text":"那什麼樣的情況我們可以參加然後什麼樣的狀況之下我們可能不參加這個部分時間的關係提供書面資料給本委員會好不好最後再利用一點時間不好意思經貿談判辦公室還有經濟部抱歉跟主席接一點時間"},{"start":5128.365,"end":5141.268,"text":"是 委員好我想請教一下因為川普總統其實在整個亞洲情其實他也做了很多的宣示尤其之前也跟韓國都已經初步的一個他們的稅率的框架已經都已經差不多細節的談得差不多"},{"start":5148.81,"end":5156.772,"text":"那美國跟馬來西亞跟柬埔寨也已經簽訂了協定我想要請教經貿辦還有經濟部對於美國馬來西亞這兩個他們的協定有沒有研究我們在研究分析當中"},{"start":5168.346,"end":5195.243,"text":"當中對因為他的關稅表是比較晚才公佈的他協議是先簽可不可以說明一下現在研究當中大概有哪個部分跟台灣會有比較類似的部分有什麼看法從整體的架構來看那就是大概就是美國跟這些貿易夥伴在談的這些對等關稅協議呢他都分成幾個部分包括了關稅非關稅"},{"start":5197.504,"end":5198.986,"text":"我們大家都知道啦我們現在講的是對馬來西亞其實他馬來西亞他就是會有全面市場開放以及降為零關稅嘛對美的商品對不對"},{"start":5214.617,"end":5219.403,"text":"以及接受這個部分你們有掌握嗎其他國家你們都沒有掌握那你怎麼去談判比如說你在談判的時候你的優勢是什麼其他國家跟我們的競爭對手包括日韓包括其他東南亞國家如果你們都沒有辦法掌握他都已經透露出來只有台灣到現在還是黑箱"},{"start":5233.8,"end":5236.781,"text":"那你既然是黑箱你至少必須掌握其他國家他們在對美談判的過程當中他們有什麼樣的優劣勢這樣你去談的時候你才知道怎麼跟美國談啊是 像委員報告我們都有在關注美國跟各個國家關稅談判的情況包括您剛剛提到的馬來西亞或是柬埔寨然後我們也有關注到美國還有跟一些國家其實也都還在談判當中其實還沒有完成"},{"start":5259.028,"end":5264.491,"text":"他們已經簽協定了我現在講的是馬來西亞他全面市場開放以及降為零關稅然後接受美國的標準不管是汽車或者農產品的檢驗因為農產品對我們台灣來說其實是影響非常深遠尤其是他的檢驗標準不管是他的來租的這全面開放或者開放到什麼程度應該要接受什麼樣的檢驗如果我們全面開放的話對我們會有什麼影響這個有沒有掌握"},{"start":5288.524,"end":5304.392,"text":"我們台灣跟馬來西亞會有一樣嗎我們都有在掌握美國跟相關國家的談判的情況還有他們簽署的協議內容所以台灣呢現在已經五輪談判了我剛剛提到了馬來西亞的狀況台灣會不會一樣"},{"start":5308.188,"end":5315.952,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個進展的話就是我們目前在說的內容就是我們在爭取這個調降對等關稅然後及不疊加還有就是232的這個優惠待遇農產品檢驗講這個就好農產品檢驗"},{"start":5325.057,"end":5331.021,"text":"有關於台美談判的這個實際內容依照美國的標準嗎因為還在談判的進行當中所以這個就是鄭麗君副院長之前反福茂反黑箱他是非常大力的反對今天我們提到五輪了而且其他國家陸續都已經簽了詳細的就是他的協定到現在我們還沒有辦法對國人說"},{"start":5352.273,"end":5363.497,"text":"至少像農產品的影響或者像一些會造成的影響傳產我們現在每天新聞看到一家一家的倒到現在你們還沒有辦法講這個部分我覺得真的是台灣非常的悲哀這個部分還有經濟部也是在這裡美國對韓國半導體的稅率保證不會高於台灣對不對"},{"start":5378.073,"end":5404.049,"text":"跟委員報告其實現在我們根據白宮發布的事實文件並沒有就半導體的部分有做披露所以現在呢美韓之間還在就現在這是正式的嘛美韓美國已經很明確的表達他的稅率半導體的稅率不會高於台灣對不對那他們已經有詳細的結果大概詳細的內容已經有初步的結果了嗎"},{"start":5404.569,"end":5418.181,"text":"我們有在媒體上面有看到這樣報導但是我們有去查驗這個白宮發布的事實文件上面並沒有就這一點有具體的文字的說明他沒有說多少而已嘛他只說不會高於台灣這個訊息對不對"},{"start":5420.543,"end":5448.66,"text":"這個是韓方的媒體的報導但是在根據白宮發布的新聞並沒有韓方敢這樣講表示跟美國有一個初步的一個方案的結論嘛韓方才會這樣講不然美國沒講韓國怎麼敢自己講所以兩邊現在的話還在有各自在我現在要講的是我們的黑箱一直在持續今天如果美國跟韓國他們已經達到初步的協定"},{"start":5449.68,"end":5463.89,"text":"他們說不會高於台灣可見台灣的稅率早就已經有一個定案了只是一直還沒有確定所以當我們付出這麼多然後我們的談判還在持續的時候我們談判還在持續我們希望看看別的國家怎麼談的一定要把我們的優勢"},{"start":5470.294,"end":5488.326,"text":"到現在還看不出來我們已經付出太多犧牲太多我們到現在還不知道任何一個結果包括農產品你們都講不出來這個部分我們希望還是有一個比較具體的一個方向說明也可以提供書面資料可以已經到目前有結論的好不好謝謝不好意思謝謝馬委員的質詢下面質詢的委員是王定宇委員王委員請謝謝"},{"start":5510.344,"end":5519.115,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩外交部長經濟部次長以及經貿談判辦公室的徐子敏請商列人員就備巡台謝謝委員好"},{"start":5523.823,"end":5552.379,"text":"現在國際環境變化非常快那很多我們在因為美國是我們第一大投資對象也是我們非常重要的科技來源地緣政治安全各方面的對象國所以跟美國之間的談判的架構其實是非常重要所以本席今天就這個主題就較於三位第一個很久沒有聽到TIFA了TIFA這一個是不是都已經終止了"},{"start":5554.093,"end":5571.485,"text":"那個看是經濟部還是談貿辦那個徐子敏應該比較知道是 向委員報告其實TIFA就是我們政府跟美國貿易代表署之間的一個經貿對話的一個架構TIFA在94年我這邊有看到94年到現在快30年了對"},{"start":5572.786,"end":5591.104,"text":"它最早期的功能是我們參加WTO的時候有扮演一定的角色可是到最後一次TIFA開會是2021年6月302021年到現在為止台美之間的貿易投資架構協定TIFA是不是都已經沒有在談了"},{"start":5592.825,"end":5609.924,"text":"還是被取代了因為貿易倡議取代了因為貿易代表署是同一批人所以後來TIFA後來就是21世紀貿易倡議同一批人有時候談不一樣的東西我現在意思是說TIFA我們現在是不是正式要告訴我們委員會TIFA已經被"},{"start":5610.825,"end":5636.999,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倉益所取代了還是說因為那是同一群人我們忙著在處理貿易倉益那個是準BTA啦在處理貿易倉益所以TIVA那個暫時就擱置TIVA到底還在不在還在因為其實雙方並沒有說要把它Cancel掉他沒有在動啊就是跟委員報告因為同一批人現在在忙著別的事情先是貿易倉益後來是對等關係談判那我就來問你忙的另外一個事情所以TIVA確實2021年"},{"start":5640.256,"end":5662.95,"text":"六月底到目前為止沒有開過會了後來沒有再用這個名義開會那我們TIFA過來就來到台美21世紀貿易倡議這一個在雙方的形容叫做準BTA為什麼加個準他沒有簽到關稅沒有簽到關稅他是一個沒有關稅在內的經貿談判所以第一階段我們"},{"start":5664.048,"end":5689.982,"text":"是從2022年6月1號開始啟動那你看那個TIFA是2021年6月底嘛所以隔年改成這一個21世紀貿易倉益那第一階段呢當時談了一些法規啦 便捷化啦雙方服務業便捷進入規則啦等等當時還送到本委員會來核備那現在要進入到第二階段"},{"start":5690.697,"end":5703.148,"text":"那第二階段裡面就牽涉到農業還有糧食準備率還有勞工 環境其實比較接近ESG這方面的談判了那這個部分現在在談判當中所以我現在要請問"},{"start":5704.895,"end":5729.342,"text":"在目前川普政府以對等關稅為主軸他認為最漂亮的字叫做Tariff就是關稅可是我們這一個21世紀貿易倡議裡面是沒有談到關稅吧 對吧是那我要請教三位這一個21世紀貿易倡議在現在的川普政府下會不會被邊緣化還有沒有在談"},{"start":5732.067,"end":5755.621,"text":"像委員報告就是上一次開會什麼時候上一次開會是去年在拜登政府任內川普政府任內沒有開過半次是 因為川普政府任內之後台美就是忙於對等關稅談判你不能老是說他現在這群人在忙這個所以那個就放著就是說大家每一個國家有自己的agenda跟他的優先次序 這個我可以接受"},{"start":5756.502,"end":5782.599,"text":"但是TIFA剛才我聽起來TIFA被這一個準BTA貿易倡議所取代了可是其實你們雙方都沒有把TIFA做一個正式的停止因為它是一個架構台美之間談的架構搞不好哪一天又重新恢復我不知道嘛可是它確實就沒功能了可是現在台美21世紀貿易倡議當時是在拜登要建構一個印太的framework"},{"start":5783.063,"end":5795.654,"text":"然後台灣沒有納在裡面用這個來嫁接的它的背景是這樣子我現在嚴肅的問外交部長我們外交部對這個部分到底還有沒有在談這個東西還存不存在"},{"start":5798.53,"end":5823.06,"text":"台美21世紀貿易倡議有12個項目啦那已經談了五個千了嘛而且經過國會那要再往前推也有三個項目啊是已經談了差不多但是因為我想美國就是也是政黨輪替嘛上一次談判是幾月幾號 去年幾月幾號 六月上一次談判 剛才那個徐子密有關這一個21世紀貿易倡議上一次談判是什麼時候"},{"start":5825.651,"end":5852.388,"text":"正式的談判去年五月美方USDR有來台灣後來就沒了嗎後來還是有持續的溝通後來是溝通一些農業 勞安 環境這些事情但正式談判是去年五月底後來就沒有了那部長我請問去年五月底後來拜登政府跟川普政府他們就忙在選舉了對那一直到現在其實已經一年多快將近一年半了都沒有再談判了"},{"start":5853.376,"end":5877.735,"text":"我剛才的問題是經濟部也可以回答就是說在川普目前高舉關稅大旗的情況下這一個準BTA是沒有關稅在內是不是形同被川普政府Pending或者暫時就不處理了這樣描述是否正確報告委員分兩點報告第一個確實如同剛剛所說的"},{"start":5878.154,"end":5904.468,"text":"USTR現在因為是在跟全世界在做關稅的談判所以這個部分21世紀的貿易倡議的相關談判確實是有暫停但是第一階段因為都已經生效執行所以經濟部來負責的中小企業的合作這個部分的話我們確實還是有在持續的推動所以這一個倡議有簽署雙方的國會也通過之後前面五項有執行"},{"start":5905.569,"end":5923.944,"text":"可是後面的談判我們用Pending這個字暫時擱在那裡那目前關稅談判其實對等關稅已經接近尾聲了我們是少數最後幾個國家了接近尾聲之後我請教三位這一個貿易倡議會不會繼續然後繼續的時候關稅會不會進到這個裡面來你們的判斷"},{"start":5928.937,"end":5943.513,"text":"委員報告因為川普有他的監打那這個部分確實是比較停滯的狀況那隨時可以恢復那因為至於市場准錄包括這個關稅因為現在切出來另外一談就是我想"},{"start":5944.073,"end":5961.389,"text":"那個協議最後會簽成什麼樣比如說川普也跟不同的國家在談所謂的關稅的時候也簽了包括像科技繁榮協議或其他的大架構那這個就是每一個總統他有他自己要啟動的這兩個東西為什麼重要其實當時透過這個談判是要讓台美之間雙方"},{"start":5963.09,"end":5986.094,"text":"進入對積木然後雙方更緊密的結合不管在供應鏈跟市場讓彼此成為彼此不可或缺的夥伴關係這對台灣的安全經貿坦白講對後續的關稅台灣都有幫助可是我看關追蹤的一段時間這個是目前停在那裡我個人表達憂心所以我現在移到下一個題目這就牽扯到CPTPP"},{"start":5988.473,"end":6008.141,"text":"CPTPP我們從2021年6月2號我們是在2021年9月22號遞交前一兩天好像是中國遞交那遞交申請書之後現在應該要進入的叫做AWG叫做陸會工作小組"},{"start":6009.335,"end":6037.721,"text":"那英國 當然英國走超快速的因為英國跟他們幾乎都有FTA了所以英國快不能拿來當作台灣的指標啦但英國做一個參考英國在2021年6月2號遞交申請書2024年就成立了2021年當年就成立了AWG工作小組那目前呢 像CPTPP遞交申請書的有六個國家中國 哥斯大利加 厄瓜多 烏拉圭 烏克蘭以及台灣"},{"start":6039.226,"end":6067.391,"text":"那目前我們在成立工作小組請教三個單位對成立陸會工作小組樂不樂觀有沒有進度我們在做突破啦我最近召開了12個國家我們駐當地國的大使或代表那我們有策略嘛但因為現在包括英國加入了然後日本是高市早苗當首相這個新的動人我們怎麼樣去運動突破的策略是什麼我跟委員報告兩點"},{"start":6068.931,"end":6085.297,"text":"一點就是說其實加拿大在去年當主席國的時候有啟動一個所謂pre-consultation也就是說入會工作小組之前的諮商是可以進行的比如我們現在已經跟某些國家展開雙邊的諮商那基礎成多然後第二點呢第二點就是所謂奧克蘭三原則裡面"},{"start":6086.717,"end":6102.225,"text":"高標準沒有不良紀錄再加上所謂共識覺那個共識覺的解釋不能夠任由變成少數的人去推翻多數的決定這只是成立陸會工作小組進行實質的審查我們現在陸會的優勢其實是台灣的 readiness我們大概法規的準備以及台灣優質符合國際貿易的標準我們其實是合格的"},{"start":6112.85,"end":6137.272,"text":"然後台灣的民主體制我們對國營事業他對國營事業有一些規範我們是符合的然後呢我們都已經做好調適準備了另外一個優勢是台灣在全球供應鏈的韌性以及我們在IT產業以及晶片產業我們有優勢坦白講不只我們需要CPTPP他們也需要我們那我們為什麼需要他CPTPP涵蓋的範圍佔了我國貿易的36%以上"},{"start":6140.138,"end":6163.399,"text":"裡面我們台灣貿易的前十大國幾乎都在裡面所以這一次加入就等於一次牽扯所有的FTA這很重要但是主力當然中國是一個主力那叫地緣政治主力他利用共識覺所以我知道你剛才講上一次加拿大講的他的共識覺是不能用來當作否決權但是這在運作上也就困難所以我剛才請教你們策略是什麼呢"},{"start":6165.71,"end":6187.131,"text":"現在陸會國的審理方案其實有三個模式一個叫做先來先審先來先審我們就麻煩了因為中國其實中國不符合那個標準這個已經被確定不是第二個叫做準備程度高者先行第三個叫做政治妥協方案六國統統成立AWG"},{"start":6188.513,"end":6209.125,"text":"那哥斯大黎加比中國比台灣晚送件可是哥斯大黎加呢已經成立工作小組AWG所以顯示CPTPP已經沒有採取先送先審他也許會採取政治妥協或者準備好先審所以你們現在全我們現在我們國家採取的入會的策略是哪一個"},{"start":6210.27,"end":6234.261,"text":"我們現在就是 當然正面是要成立陸會工作小組那我們也產開雙邊的直接的所謂的前期諮商再來我們也做了一個研究報告 這很重要比如說台灣加入的貢獻是如何 就我們的加值外交我們算出來 包括中金院這些相關的機構是對每個國家都會受惠 甚至受惠的程度如何我們都有量化的資料"},{"start":6234.821,"end":6251.925,"text":"所以沒有理由說一個台灣要參加CPTPP對大家都有利我最後這樣講我可不可以讓我再一點點講那個所謂的第三原則共識訣我們現在的溝通有產生一些效果就是你反對的人要說理由你不能說我就是沒有同意讓你去成立陸地工作你要講出理由講不出理由"},{"start":6254.326,"end":6276.872,"text":"就代表你政治的操作吧國際政治有時候因為你剛才講的是道理其實按道理台灣就應該參加我們的實力就應該參加我們的準備程度我們就應該參加我們的貢獻度我們就應該參加這叫得利這不叫策略策略就是你剛才講的你反對我要講出個道理來如果這是他們的決議那這還有點用如果這不是決議我就反對不理你你給我加"},{"start":6278.636,"end":6300.705,"text":"對 所以要對奧克蘭三原則的補充說明如果能夠接受反對者要舉證說明不然就是政治考量我們最後一章我最後一分鐘我要提醒就是說其實我目前把它分類這12國大概可以分成四大類堅定支持視台灣為戰略夥伴的日本 英國 澳洲你剛才講的高視早瞄是一個新變數"},{"start":6301.525,"end":6322.226,"text":"事实上从安倍以后这个态度变化不大只是说动力高低而已英国是表明了CPTPP是一个对抗中国经贸威胁的一个组织还有一种是积极协调程序推动像加拿大你刚才讲的那个预先协商机制是他提出来的另外有第三种是严守标准"},{"start":6323.368,"end":6338.465,"text":"我都只要符合高標準的我都樂見新加坡紐西蘭是這種最麻煩的是第四個受地緣政治就受中國施壓的像秘魯這些國家所以你如果把它分類出來之後應該針對不同的國家這12國"},{"start":6340.073,"end":6366.169,"text":"應該有不同的談判策略特別在川普用對等關稅的當下台灣如何跟美國之外的經貿區域建立這種容易進入準FTA的機制其實對我們的經貿發展很重要所以本席今天是說這個題目其實影響非常深遠但是不會很熱鬧 不會很刺激但我期待我們經濟部 外交部我們經貿談判辦"},{"start":6368.171,"end":6383.253,"text":"這個事情的重要性不亞於對美關稅大家一起加油好不好這些國家我希望有一天專報是你針對不同國家有不同的策略那該機密專報我可以接受但是要有不同的方法去梭理"},{"start":6383.749,"end":6413.569,"text":"而不是同一套道理要大家接受秘魯或者某一些國家他的反對其實也沒有什麼道理啊我跟委員報告秘魯他是支持的他現在支持嗎他現在這個因為總統也被彈劾了這個政府也處於一個過渡的階段他要彈劾我們不要講了你是外交部長我們這個已經是發生的事情所以我們也在但是秘魯是相對來講是有可能的秘魯的突破其實是一個大突破是後面還有一個國家我就不講好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":6419.172,"end":6421.713,"text":"謝謝接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":6433.638,"end":6447.993,"text":"謝主席 主席有請外交部林佳龍部長經濟部 秦部長政務江次長然後陸委會省副主委經濟部還有陸委會請就備巡台 謝謝"},{"start":6450.155,"end":6465.507,"text":"部長不知道您是不是知道就是11月4號的時候我們的檢調已經針對就是柬埔寨的太子集團在台灣的這些所謂的不法行事已經台北地檢署已經成立了專案小組那麼來做這個相關的這個"},{"start":6468.729,"end":6492.96,"text":"包括資產的扣押等等那麼我基本上不是要詢問這個個案但是從這個個案我想透過外交的部分來跟您做一個討論那就是其實我們知道就是針對這個所謂太子集團事實上他的高層透過柬埔寨這種免簽那麼新南下的這個政策其實是不是成為一個破口稍後我會跟您討論但是"},{"start":6494.921,"end":6515.052,"text":"我們可以知道中國透過經濟的量能不斷的在吸引我們的邦交國棄台灣然後取中國我想這個部分是非常明確的那麼在美國今年的10月14號起訴了太子奇團的創辦人陳志之后那麼我相信台灣"},{"start":6515.772,"end":6544.447,"text":"美國跟帛琉之間其實事實上是有做一些資訊交換的而這個資訊當中其實三月的時候美國的智庫就已經發文提醒警告中國背景的跨犯罪組織是透過帛琉偵測度假村跟土地開發從事洗錢博弈跟詐騙而且更重要的是後面他有這個政治目的就是北京要透過這樣的方式希望他們改支持中國"},{"start":6545.347,"end":6570.533,"text":"那我們回來看的是我們看這個中國已經促進滲透我們的友邦到底我們要如何來因應我特別整理了一下台商在帛琉的投資的部分其實到了這個近幾年幾乎我們在這個部分的投資它都是處於零的一個狀態我知道部長一直在推所謂的總和外交或者是其他的方 農邦計畫等等"},{"start":6572.873,"end":6600.003,"text":"但是面對上帛琉就是我們的邦交國但是這個經濟的挹注的投資就是拉不上來部長怎麼看我也要順便請問後面經濟部我報告委員如果是加上2025這個數字會上來很多也就是我們籠幫計劃的努力啊已經有一些成果我知道其實您也曾經希望能夠帶團那有一些我也率團去參加帛琉會主任總統的就職典禮好那所以現在的掌握是可以有"},{"start":6600.704,"end":6602.238,"text":"怎麼樣的一個數字上的提升"},{"start":6603.427,"end":6632.526,"text":"那因為具體的投資項目現在都啟動了榮邦計畫說雙邊對接那所以我是對未來是很樂觀我也號召國人多去帛琉觀光旅遊以外也可以做投資他那個條件是很好那我現在回過來講其實您剛講這個打擊所謂的這個太子集團還有他背後的中國的操弄特別是透過這個所謂這個包括洗錢那進入去想要去掌握他的產業"},{"start":6633.908,"end":6648.927,"text":"進而影響他的選舉那進行包括精英俘虜也就是對特定的人鎖定給他一種就是說收買好 那這個我們經過合作因為這個案子我在總統府秘書長的時候我就密切注意了那我到外交部長更是"},{"start":6649.528,"end":6665.238,"text":"所以為什麼說惠碩人總統他會講說其實中國對於佛羅是處於作戰的狀態也就是說中國用這樣的一個所謂的用滲透啦操弄啦包括這些犯罪其實是已經在發動戰爭好那我們現在問題來了"},{"start":6669.011,"end":6689.025,"text":"我們以前是故邦啦我們現在把它發展成榮邦為什麼要拜託委員會給我們這個支持預算就是說它需要發展因為帛琉可以發展藍色經濟 綠色觀光它的條件很好但是我們怎麼樣不是只是援助而是去投資那這個就是明年因為帛琉要辦PIF"},{"start":6689.785,"end":6702.711,"text":"太平洋島國論壇那我們把它設定成明年的這個PIV舉辦的時候要展現我們在太平洋地區龍芒計畫的成果所以現在一樣一樣可以說是如火如荼的在進行中"},{"start":6703.632,"end":6710.337,"text":"所以說這個2025年之後到2026其實在這個投資金額上面會有展現會 已經其實到因為今天2025已經11月了因為我知道的投資項目就好幾項已經確定了好 那有金額嗎應該可以在明年的這個就是太平洋島國論壇的時候來呈現我站這裡面重點的項目當然有包括他們要發展的所謂的這個"},{"start":6734.751,"end":6757.894,"text":"觀光這裡面石塑油構型怎麼樣去讓他可以吸引更優質的觀光的投資不管是飯店或是交通還有其他的這一些購物啦還有這些等等另外一個就是用零碳排的一個運輸就是智慧運輸系統還有當然也包括我們對他的這個"},{"start":6760.229,"end":6785.243,"text":"就是能源 相關的政策我們的支持 而且這是跨國在進行不只有台灣 還包括像美國 日本跟澳大利亞等國家大家一起在推動所以部長我最後一個問題問你我等一下問其他部會因為今天時間比較短那就是除了帛琉之外外交部這邊還有掌握其他我們的友邦也被中國用同樣的方式在做其他的滲透嗎有"},{"start":6787.386,"end":6791.396,"text":"那有什麼作為嗎或者是可以說是哪些國家嗎"},{"start":6793.444,"end":6819.263,"text":"他們幾乎對每一個國家都採取這種一帶一路然後輸入一些比如說像華為然後就掌控你的基礎設施就進行政商勾結所以精英的俘虜然後再加上資訊操弄這個就是帛琉去年在總統選舉的時候遭受大量的威脅我想包括我們跟美國都合作一起協助他抵擋這些假訊息還有這些所有的所謂的收買"},{"start":6820.094,"end":6823.478,"text":"讓這個選舉可以公平而惠蘇人總統能夠高票連任我們的邦交也能夠維繫下去其實本席就是希望在這個部分真的必須說實話經濟必須要互惠我們的邦誼也才能夠奠定在基礎之上那我要問一下經濟部就是"},{"start":6838.795,"end":6863.552,"text":"其實他們炸團來台灣設公司洗錢喔那麼台灣是不是淪為洗錢的終極戰太子集團在我們國內設的九家空殼公司當中來進行跨國的洗錢我知道現在經濟委員會也正在針對公司法在做修正但是像這樣的一個狀態跟像一個狀況喔之前經濟部在整個案件被引爆之前有收到相關的訊息嗎那麼在這個部分現在是不是台灣作為這個亞太洗錢防治組織的創始會員國"},{"start":6867.295,"end":6878.561,"text":"在這個部分經濟部有沒有什麼其他的想法因為這部分顯然公司一家一家開但是是不是我們在這邊的管理上面過於鬆散我想經濟部會講說他當初來設立的時候都沒有太大的問題等等那麼在這後面經濟部作為主管機關有沒有思考過該如何來杜絕像這樣的公司變成是跨國洗錢活動當中的台灣成為洗錢的天堂"},{"start":6894.19,"end":6918.365,"text":"報告委員我們當然不會願意台灣成為這個洗錢的天堂所以我們現在的這個公司登記是分為兩個部分五億元以上是直接跟經濟部登記如果是五億元以下就是委由六都縣市來做登記所以我們現在有加強強化的管理第一個部分就是我們如果同一家公司"},{"start":6919.225,"end":6943.563,"text":"对不起同一个地址如果设两家以上公司我们会要求这个申请人要提出更具体的相关的文件第二个我们也已经在预计在12月份跟六都的相关的公司登记的人员来做相关的说明有必要的话我们也会请法务部来派代表来跟登记人员做相关的说明"},{"start":6943.843,"end":6959.873,"text":"好沒錯因為我想這個次長董我也要問什麼就是你看這九家公司同樣一個代表人連名字都非常接近還有聯凡聯凡二然後所以伯居伯居二這顯然就是有問題存在你一間公司需要如此的"},{"start":6960.814,"end":6973.689,"text":"把它擴張而它擴張真的實質它的營運項目到底是什麼這個部分也希望主管機關在就公司登記及相關地方政府在給予成立的時候必須要來做了解最後我想要詢問陸委會就是"},{"start":6976.112,"end":6986.305,"text":"對於像這樣的一個洗錢集團喔美國在提出警訊之後那麼陸委會有掌握嗎那麼對於說像中國就是用這個方式來做所謂的經濟滲透這個是其實長期存在就像過去一帶一路的狀況喔"},{"start":6991.252,"end":7011.875,"text":"但是問題是因為身為包括像我們有這個所謂高層來台那像這個部分當然因為我們這個所謂免簽的關係東南亞新南向政策甚至於被報導出來就是因為他可以免費來到台灣那麼這對於陸委會來講在做資訊的掌握上面是不是其實有更多的這個了解"},{"start":7013.01,"end":7028.739,"text":"這個部分我們會跟像是外交部移民署還有像是國安會還有國安局多多交換這個資料因為在很多的這個法條上面來講的話如果會不見得是主管機關所以我們有的時候是相對來講是比較被動的來接收到訊息之後然後我們再去做啟動一個後續的調查"},{"start":7029.141,"end":7056.18,"text":"好那最後再跟主席借一點時間就是本席其實一直在追蹤就是有關於中國這種所謂的真偷假偷渡真滲透的方式那麼事實上本席也已經在10月29號跟針對這個蔡明彥這個局長有做過質詢而我也提出了修法其中這個主管機關就是陸委會就是有關於兩岸人民關係條例裡頭我特別要求陸委會在針對這個所謂的"},{"start":7058.182,"end":7071.501,"text":"這個收容的部分尤其是必須要定期的針對這種所謂非法入籍留在入侵牢留在台灣的這些人士那麼依情節必須在針對他們的收容來做檢討"},{"start":7073.484,"end":7088.033,"text":"因為當時蔡明彥回覆我的是說這只是個案每一個個案的狀況不同那麼我想請問陸委會在兩岸人民關係條例當中有沒有要針對這個所謂假偷渡真滲透的部分提出修法跟修正"},{"start":7088.963,"end":7112.122,"text":"這個部分因為時空環境有變化所以以前我印象中的話曾經大法官有釋憲過所以我們就在那個兩岸人民關係條例裡面把他的拘留天數給明確的定了下來但現在看起來因為中共滲透的情況越來越惡化而且嚴重所以確實有可能有要調整的必要所以未來在這個部分如果有相關的這個修法我們現在也正在應處如果委員有任何的這個建議的話也都非常歡迎委員來給我們一些訊息"},{"start":7112.662,"end":7131.37,"text":"好最後這個還是要再請一下部長那個陸委會跟經濟部可以先請問最後就是當然有關於這個新南向簽證的部分我們知道其實為了鼓勵新南向那麼我們當然也是希望新南向國家的人民可以到台灣來但是面對剛剛有特別提到的就是簽證的部分我們對"},{"start":7132.31,"end":7155.986,"text":"柬埔寨簽證的待遇的部分那麼包括他可以不用這個所謂的簽證費或者是甚至於不用直接到外館去做簽證也可以拿第三國的簽證入境台灣那麼以目前柬埔寨的這樣一個狀況的時候那麼包括新南向的簽證會做一些所謂的在資格上面的修正又或者是會做檢討嗎"},{"start":7158.228,"end":7168.793,"text":"會 因為我們也事實上滾動在檢討針對每一年的因為我們的簽證政策包括以所謂的觀光旅遊進來的犯案的情形這些作為檢討"},{"start":7173.815,"end":7187.382,"text":"先前因為疫情過後我們有一波比較大的開放其實現在我們也要針對每一個國家的情形來做調整不是說我們試辦我們就會持續會辦下去有些我們會做調整好 謝謝接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7209.258,"end":7211.085,"text":"主席麻煩請部長外交部部長請部長"},{"start":7219.861,"end":7241.724,"text":"部長好 最近有一些相關的新聞讓我有點憂心首先就是之前的美媒它有發布說這個部長在九月紐約設宴那多方的美方高層原本預定出席卻沒有現身但是有部分媒體就直接草擬說無人到場"},{"start":7242.825,"end":7264.354,"text":"那部長我想請教一下這是不是我們從1971年退出聯合國後首次有外交部長受邀前往聯大期間舉辦的非官方週邊活動所以這是當然第一次在聯合國大會期間當然台灣的外交部長到紐約而且出席週邊的活動所以是首次"},{"start":7265.756,"end":7286.344,"text":"是 所以算是在歷史性來講它某種程度也算是突破可是在這種突破的狀況之下因為要 因為跟美方的默契我們也沒有主張要大肆的去宣傳我是擔心是不是有心人士他一方面可能是見不得國家好見不得國家往前走那故意放這種消息嗎應該不會有這種狀況吧"},{"start":7288.525,"end":7310.521,"text":"其實我是覺得這是一個認知作戰的一部分因為最近包括聯合國大會之後像APEC 川習會你看一波一波從某一些外媒他資訊是怎麼來當然背後我們也在做分析那也會做好媒體試讀這樣的一個事情其實主辦單位是有"},{"start":7312.189,"end":7329.032,"text":"貼文的就是說那不是我們台灣外交部長在那個地方辦宴會而是我們是受邀那有上百個人出席的場合這麼多人那所以竟然會有這樣的訊息說當事人在現場然後看到我們都請不到人來參會上面就說那個消息人士說台灣感到挫敗其實在這種狀況之下怎麼會有什麼挫敗我們是很大的進展啊"},{"start":7341.374,"end":7367.122,"text":"那這些人到底有心人是在挫敗什麼感到什麼東西而且又配合又要怎麼撤換我國的駐美代表這一連串的新聞這樣全部跑出來無中生有 加油添醋我希望我們國家要面對中國的挑戰已經很大了不要再有內部希望大家團結支持外交部能夠走出去千萬不要再這樣子內部如果還要結合中國勢力來打壓我國外交的話"},{"start":7367.702,"end":7396.683,"text":"那我老实说这是很痛心的事情当然美国也有一些不同意识形态的利益团体也有想要去引导他们的美国的这个对中对台的政策美国孤立主义等等这样的人都有但是结合了一些媒体甚至他们有投资的关系或者是说那个讯息来源本身有接受委托这个我们当然都一一都会去把这个个案把它研究清楚之后来做好媒体的试读"},{"start":7397.003,"end":7410.218,"text":"在陽光底下沒有所謂可以掩蓋的如果有內部人士做類似這樣的做法遲早都會被發現所以我要感謝像杜益景先生他這個幫我們把這個整個資訊的就是"},{"start":7416.664,"end":7442.193,"text":"這個演變啦做了很好的分析那貼在他的社群媒體上才讓大家了解是哪個環節被擴大或扭曲但是你看喔包括有政黨的到黨主席到他們的這個所謂的文傳會的這個負責人都用前面錯的訊息在批判台灣的我們外交"},{"start":7445.009,"end":7454.058,"text":"我是覺得這個不應該再去推波助瀾有講過的最好能夠道歉不然這個會留住好像變成這個"},{"start":7456.136,"end":7484.721,"text":"錯的事情現在變成當作一個前提在做很多批判對啊 這個如果再去解釋的話反而就又被拿來做做延伸我們覺得不太好那沒關係 我們想請教一下部長那既然我們在台美關係從這個在他的參加他的非官方周邊活動開始那我認為我們在台美關係的這種促進上面其實應該是有進展的吧是我問問部長最近有沒有什麼具體合作的項目有沒有達成什麼"},{"start":7486.926,"end":7506.925,"text":"那因為川普總統的新政當然有除了安全面我想印太戰略很清楚我想大家都知道這個川普政府對於台海安全的重視跟支持但是我就從其他他比較關注的新的面向包括關稅還有包括像這個232條款還有包括像"},{"start":7510.008,"end":7536.918,"text":"半導體跟AI相關的政策我們其實都做好準備跟川普政府的政策是可以對接的當然最近陸續我想因為大家過去有一些人在操弄的棄台論跟儀美論其實經過這一波川普來到亞洲出席東協跟APEC然後也召開了很多包括川習會等我想應該是大家會比較清楚"},{"start":7537.638,"end":7554.491,"text":"就是川普總統他們的一個對台灣的政策那我簡單講一下這一次當然沒有意外發生都是因為台美很好的溝通我也速度在被委員問到的時候我們是有信心的要關心但不要過度擔心那對台美關係要有信心"},{"start":7557.893,"end":7572.334,"text":"那我們也看到因為有一些除了川普總統他提到的這些很重要那台灣是台灣美中關係是美中關係總之是兩回事以外包括像Marco Rubio這個國務卿還有非常多他重要的決策者"},{"start":7573.235,"end":7600.265,"text":"已經很清楚地談了不可能去把貿易談判跟台灣去掛鉤那這些我們的戰略溝通也有一些效果那我們支持台美關係穩定往前發展的也慢慢地都把這些這個很清楚的這個立場都表態那我們也必須了解那美方關注的包括國防預算還有經貿談判這個都要進行之後我想所有的這些可能不確定性就會確定了"},{"start":7602.446,"end":7625.008,"text":"但是我們也看到機會在哪裡比如台美關係我想在美國關注的不管是經貿人員人工智慧還有這個半導體關鍵礦物跟稀土方面這個供應鏈的合作在所謂的非紅供應鏈或民主供應鏈上其實台美是有很大的一個合作的空間我們現在逐項的在盤點要對接"},{"start":7626.75,"end":7645.957,"text":"那我跟委員講這一次在APEC這個高峰會跟場邊會議裡面有一個很重要我們做好充分的準備因為這次的主題跟AI有關也就是人工智慧而台灣在這方面除了我們的領袖代表的發言我們的三個企業諮詢的代表都針對這個把台灣經驗那麼在國際上很清楚的呈現而這個也就是包括台美之間對於所謂的發展供應鏈能夠去"},{"start":7657.014,"end":7662.888,"text":"擴展台美聯合艦隊特別我要跟委員報告的是所謂大家關心的台灣模式的科學園區"},{"start":7665.146,"end":7686.691,"text":"那我們以台灣做一個 就是一個參考的雛形然後到美國要去設說 特別是台美政府都要來支持才能夠把這樣的生態系建構所以我們也會推動台美之間對於這個合作能夠形成一個制度性的架構"},{"start":7688.052,"end":7703.949,"text":"然後能夠讓台灣投資美國隊美國投資台灣隊能夠在美國能夠壯大美國也壯大台灣我們在五月的時候我也去到了德州召開AI的高峰會所有的工協會一起去"},{"start":7704.549,"end":7717.125,"text":"那這個台灣Tower這個案子行政院的經濟外交工作小組通過那台美經貿小組也列入重點所以我們不只是亞利桑那州還包括德州去發展出一個台灣有優勢的供應鏈"},{"start":7719.929,"end":7749.13,"text":"那這個我想對於台美關係也會起一個非常大的注意這一點也是我們這一次外交部同仁雖然有時候在第一線不一定是外交部就像說在APEC的會議上雙部長會議其實外交部長雖然我本身沒有去但是是有代表就是吳承文這個政委也是國科會的主委所以這一些都是我們跨部會一起在推動"},{"start":7749.95,"end":7753.135,"text":"就是打造台美能夠在未來的新興科技的產業上建立一個策略夥伴的關係"},{"start":7759.636,"end":7783.672,"text":"好 謝謝部長那接下來就請書面報告給我就是包含這個美國參議院他否決關稅那在眾議院參議院跟他最高法院他們之間的這個對關稅上面的影響跟他我們的預判是什麼跟我們要做的一些影響是什麼這個部分再請外交部給我們相關的這個資訊然後再來就是愛沙尼亞跟印度的關係我們也會書面給大家因為時間已經超過了好 謝謝"},{"start":7788.372,"end":7790.584,"text":"謝謝接下來請沈伯陽委員上台質詢"},{"start":7805.836,"end":7819.842,"text":"好 謝謝主席那這個我先請這個經濟部次長還有這個這個陸委會的副主委請經濟部次長還有陸委會副主委就被巡台委員好"},{"start":7823.308,"end":7851.754,"text":"你好 這一個呢這個去年的時候其實我就問過了但我覺得這個有必要再追因為這件事情跟我們今天的主題有關係因為這一個我們先不論因為川習慧他本身是一個結果他不是一個原因簡單來講我們這一個不管是美中的關係還是說這一個貿易戰這個進程其實不會因為這一個會有所太大的改變那現在美國在意的事情大概都是那幾個"},{"start":7852.754,"end":7876.007,"text":"有一個非常重要的就還是跟產地有關的又或者說呢這個之前我們在總諮詢的時候也有問過在這一個經濟委員會也有問過那另外一件事情呢其實就是我們跟中國企業的關係所以淘寶這件事情就是因為我看到他們這一個這個總統大院長他之前有說呢希望要去研究這個限期落地的事情"},{"start":7876.667,"end":7901.992,"text":"那他就發了一個聲明說2018年的時候這個台灣分公司已經依許法規合法落地這前幾天的事情而已那這個跟我們之前理解就不一樣嘛對不對 就是說第一個就是說中國淘寶其實不能算是在台灣真的有落地它真的有一個這一個跟我們投手有關的是香港的那一家那它做的只是一個分送的業務所以我之前有函文給經濟部在問這個問題的時候就經濟部有在調查"},{"start":7905.173,"end":7924.675,"text":"調查的是什麼呢就是說香港這一個分公司那他在台灣做的這個業務有沒有符合他所設立的這一個目的對不對如果他說只有分送那他是不是可以在前面放廣告啊什麼等等之類的這是一條線那如果只是按照法規來講的話我們可以針對這家公司到底有做沒做這件事情呢來做討論跟裁罰"},{"start":7926.357,"end":7947.491,"text":"但其實呢他跟中國逃跑我認為他應該是分開的事情因為中國逃跑他本身就是一家電商嘛那這一家電商呢他能不能下廣告跟他今天寄東西到台灣應不應該要收到管制這其實是兩件事情那我們呢其實當然已經解決了或者說已經討論了香港的這一件事情但中國這件事情實質上是沒有解決"},{"start":7948.211,"end":7960.282,"text":"那我知道其實這一件事情因為它牽涉到兩岸條例我們電商很多全世界各式各樣的電商都很多但是會受到兩岸條例規範的電商是只有中國電商對 亞馬遜不會受到這個兩岸條例的規範這個31條的適用範圍沒有到它"},{"start":7964.065,"end":7981.386,"text":"那我知道因為陸委會在這個他也是在一起討論這件事情的範圍之內所以可不可以說明一下就是現在針對中國電商我們無論香港香港那個他有沒有分送要不要做廣告那是另外一件事就是針對中國電商這件事情目前我們的做法跟過一番是什麼"},{"start":7983.103,"end":8005.083,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個議題對於中國淘寶它確實沒有在台灣落地那它是跨境電商的模式所以現在行政院已經責成幾個部會包括經濟部 數位部 衛福部 還有財政部我們要分別就這個邊境的管制還有相關業務的推動已經成立專責的小組"},{"start":8006.364,"end":8024.313,"text":"所以可以看得出來其實在邊境管制是第一道防線財政部已經決定說未來如果透過電商的這些進口的話應該也要有進口報單的申報所以從邊境這邊來做第一關的"},{"start":8024.833,"end":8042.769,"text":"第一關的這個管制那目前呢就像我剛剛所報告的中國淘寶沒有來申請因為呢根據我們的這個正面表列入資來台的正面表列如果是跨境的電商他會涉及到不同的這個"},{"start":8043.806,"end":8061.102,"text":"这个业别那其中呢是不允许我们是不允许广告业到台湾来做相关的服务以上好所以呢因为在这件事情上面如果今天行政院已经有责成一个小组要来讨论这件事情的话第一个我想问一下如何就是34条的这个适用的空间"},{"start":8061.702,"end":8082.919,"text":"就是說我剛剛講31是打詐我剛剛講打詐是31然後兩岸條例是34就是34的這個第一項配合40條嘛它有一個這一個相關的規定就是說如果你沒有在許可的狀況之下你應該如何如何這個34條到底有沒有適用的空間打詐專法31條那是另外一件事情它所有的不利益可能會更大"},{"start":8083.9,"end":8105.588,"text":"基本上我們現在這個按照兩岸人民關係條例裡面是沒有開放入資來台投資電商特別針對電商這塊來講是沒有空間的但現在比較複雜的情況是在於說譬如說我們看到有的時候是變成他是港資或者說他裡面只有部分是中資他透過第三地然後用合夥的方式到台灣來投資所以這個部分可能還需要再有更多的這個情況來做一個滾動式的這個調整"},{"start":8107.689,"end":8125.689,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告就是說針對電商這一塊來講我們不管是這個這個中資或者是其他的那我們總共列了一二三四五六八項這個八項裡面以淘寶的這個案例來講的話我們只有核准他我們只有核准他進行電子資訊的供應還有廣告傳單的分送這兩項而已"},{"start":8126.83,"end":8149.491,"text":"對 就香港分公司申請的那一個對 所以他那個時候在媒體上面有講說他已經落地了 接受監管所以他可以來從事電商的業務這個其實是錯誤的因為我們只有核准他這兩項那他從事了這兩項以外的其他項目來說的話他就是違法了對 你這樣提到我在追問一件事情我剛剛想到的就是說因為他們好像也有開記者會或什麼之類的那他們開記者會的時候他的名義到底是什麼比如說他是用中國淘寶"},{"start":8150.792,"end":8177.397,"text":"還是他是用香港的然後他有沒有符合他本來如果說是香港因為香港的才有申請這個相關的業務他有沒有包含可以做這件事情我覺得這可能也要注意一下是 跟委員報告就是說他來投資的是用香港淘寶的這個身分但是他事實上他在從事的那個項目裡面就是剛剛跟委員報告的他已經超過了我們核准他的這兩項所以我們針對其他的部分還包含像是拼多多蝦皮這個問題是更加的複雜"},{"start":8178.257,"end":8204.001,"text":"那淘寶的這個部分來講的話事實上我們是已經先針對了他違法的這個部分來說也跟經濟部還有跟相關的這個部會來演繹那其他的這個部分來說的話因為每個個案情況都不一樣但是我們可能會針對不同的個案來看我們現在的法律是不是夠用OK好 這個很感謝因為我覺得這是一個很大的問題就是說剛好最近朱溫的事情大家對於邊境管事也越來越重視那我覺得應該在這個機會我們一次性的讓國人很清楚就是說我們有哪些法律的工具"},{"start":8204.341,"end":8220.142,"text":"我們不一定需要立法院這邊修法就是行政端用既有的法律工具看能不能先做好管制那不然的話這其實你說民生的危機就算了以後可能會有國家安全的危機也有可能會影響到我們的貿易的談判這個影響非常的巨大我覺得這非常重要的事情"},{"start":8220.342,"end":8245.188,"text":"是委員提醒非常重要因為我們確實有看到我們委託學者做一些研究他有提醒我們譬如說洗產地的風險這個現在美國非常高度的關注甚至也有國安的風險怎麼說呢因為我們會發現有一些化學的這種燃料啦或者工具或者是有可能形成國安危機的這樣子的這種危險的這種物品他可以用拼裝的這個方式所以他可以個別個別的透過這個法律的漏洞進到台灣來之後最後拼裝起來變成生化武器"},{"start":8245.888,"end":8267.063,"text":"雖然沒有發生但是我們覺得必須要嚴防啦更甚至於已經有發生的情況譬如說校園裡面的電子煙我已經收到非常多家長的反應他們都反應說這些電子煙就是透過這種境外的電商那沒有明確的是講哪一家但是確實我們發現境外電商不是只有這次豬瘟有疑慮有太多太多的對於社會對於我們年輕朋友的危害是產生這個疑慮我們會加以來檢討"},{"start":8269.284,"end":8296.906,"text":"好 那我覺得這個之後我再繼續來追蹤那接下來我想問的是外交部但我看時間不一定夠用就是說 部長就是說我簡單問一下因為前面其實滿多人問過的就是說這一個APEC就是明年的這一個官員附中的這個法律風險因為我們現在不是說官員附中有風險而已我們連一般人民去中國都會失蹤這個到香港都會被抓走所以呢 就是就這一點而已目前的準備狀況如何"},{"start":8298.636,"end":8321.121,"text":"我們因為有預期到中國可能會有這種動作所以在去年他申請明年要辦APEC大年會的時候我們就已經有透過APEC的這個平台他書面的承諾第一個要確保我們的人身安全另外當然是APEC精神包括今年的這個所謂雙部長的會議的共同聲明也再次提到"},{"start":8321.781,"end":8336.22,"text":"必須要保障平等參與的權利這個就是說除了國格不能被貶低之外這當然了我想問一下就是說這個安全相關的問題它的主管機關是要外交部負責還是要請國安單位負責"},{"start":8337.557,"end":8366.155,"text":"我們現在國安會是有開始在針對這個跨部會有在開始做好這個未來的這個因應因為這個我覺得因為主管是誰可能蠻重要的因為當然都是在我們這邊國防外交委員會但是我們想說因為這個也跟預算有關就是說我們之後針對這樣的執行針對這個官員的這個保護這未來應該是重要的事情所以他到底是在比如說他在哪裡被編列"},{"start":8366.815,"end":8379.769,"text":"它的量能是擺在哪裡然後我們要怎麼去做監督這件事情可能要先釐清但是我不一定要在公開的場合講非常的清楚說到底是哪一個單位來主責但是是不是能夠在這一兩個禮拜我們來稍微整理一下相關這個官員附中風險的問題"},{"start":8382.119,"end":8391.03,"text":"是當然過去APEC我們大家都跨部會那當然外交部有國主司嘛因為現在當然加上陸委會也是很重要因為在中國大陸所以這整個應該說我們已經啟動了針對因為12月就開始明年度的活動"},{"start":8398.96,"end":8417.312,"text":"所以我們就會面對到事實上在這一次在韓國我們就開始在跟中國的APEC資深官員在交涉所以這個是不能夠讓今年形成明年為什麼我們那麼堅持不能用地方政府的官員去接我們的領袖代表"},{"start":8417.952,"end":8446.688,"text":"那如果明年去那邊他還是比較找一個地方層級的來接機那另外就是安全面我們要求就是對於會員國的保障而這個不只我們我想連我們友好國家他們也都表達這個關切才讓中國來舉辦他們是有承諾的那如果他們違背這個承諾我想APEC是共識決我們一定會強力的這個做反制因為他大會要有共同的聲明其實去年其實"},{"start":8447.988,"end":8468.785,"text":"一些友好國家說我們算是打了一場很很漂亮的勝仗不但把這個APEC過去中國企圖矮化成兩岸的這個來往回到APEC的平台而且今年也繼續我們希望明年也能夠確保我們參與的利益跟出席者的安全好 謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8482.098,"end":8505.627,"text":"謝謝主席我們請林佳龍林部長請林部長部長好因為APEC的關係呢那大家就開始這個更加的關注那我們中華民國加入各種的這些國際組織的進度那其中有一個很重要的呢是CPTPP在蔡英文政府"},{"start":8506.768,"end":8525.644,"text":"在2021年的9月22日是有向紐西蘭地建正式申請加入CPTPP的現在目前已經過了4年我想要請問一下目前的進度為何那這4年以來我們有具體做了什麼那在哪一些重要的時間節點可以跟我們做一些說明"},{"start":8527.717,"end":8549.578,"text":"第一個我們為要說服這些會員國支持台灣我們做了一個很詳細的分析報告也就是我們加入CPP對大家的好處甚至對12個國家以及個別國家這第一點第二點呢這個是書面報告嗎書面報告嗎有一個研究報告這個研究報告是在什麼時候提交的"},{"start":8550.236,"end":8569.799,"text":"就是最近最近是多最近我想一個確切的時間應該最近半年左右因為我上任之後就啟動了這個調研您上任之後啟動的對所以可能就是在這一半年內這一年內已經有一個報告的結果送出一個報告然後呢那送到哪去呢"},{"start":8570.612,"end":8586.765,"text":"我們除了我們這個行政院有一個經貿談判辦公室所以我們在開始對各國在交涉我們都會跟他分析台灣參加對大家有什麼好處所以是個別的對各個國家來把這個研究報告做遞交"},{"start":8588.726,"end":8611.044,"text":"而不是說我們有一個管道然後呢我們有一個整體的報告當然跟他溝通的時候我們會看適合公佈什麼樣的資料所以你們就是呢針對各個國家那可能在整體的報告裡面抽出那對對方來說比較在意的事情然後去做溝通那這個溝通的就利用這個報告那像各國那有幾次的溝通記錄呢"},{"start":8612.753,"end":8626.488,"text":"我們就展開比如說我們跟大概有一半以上的國家其實他們都有表示支持我們參加那現在有一個關鍵就是要成立所謂的成立所謂的陸會工作小組這一步要進去我們才有可能進行實質的討論陸會工作小組什麼時候要成立"},{"start":8628.098,"end":8651.634,"text":"就是現在就在很多有六個國家申請那到底他們今年11月底你直接把六個國家講出來我覺得有很多事情除了台灣之外中國然後包括阿克斯達黎加烏拉圭等等所以這六個國家然後我們要做一個入會小組現在就是確定沒有說誰先申請誰先成立工作小組就看他們這個所謂的部長會議他們最後的這個"},{"start":8656.597,"end":8673.939,"text":"決定像去年就通過了用哥斯大黎加作為成立工作小組所以台灣要怎麼樣在這個工作小組裡面呢能夠變成是說去建立或是在什麼時間點上面要來做這一次因為我們都還沒有被成立陸會工作小組所以我們就去年加拿大做主席國的時候"},{"start":8674.239,"end":8680.365,"text":"他就通過了一個可以進行入會工作前的諮商我們現在已經跟有一些會員國已經展開實質的諮商哪一些會員國因為這涉及到比較機密那大概有幾個會員國可以說嗎"},{"start":8689.276,"end":8717.682,"text":"目前就是有一個已經進行蠻實質的討論一個一個但是歷史是很重要有一就有二沒有我覺得你們很可愛如果我不問的話我還以為這個十個就還是要有時候還是跟你們對話我覺得真的還是要詳細一點所以我再梳理一下整個過程就是我們有一份就您上任之後做了一份研究報告那這研究報告我們就向各個相關的會員國裡面然後我們有提出然後跟他們去做溝通"},{"start":8718.562,"end":8742.845,"text":"那再下一步呢我們就希望能夠成立就是說在加拿大它當時有這個去在制度上面架構的這個入會前的工作小組對不對那在這個工作小組上面我們的流程是好 現在為關鍵了因為它入會有所謂奧克蘭三原則就是你本身的自由貿易是符合高標準再來你沒有不良紀錄第三個就是共識覺可是共識覺怎麼解釋呢"},{"start":8743.405,"end":8766.353,"text":"好像變成說好像12個會員國都同意我們才成立工作小組我們認為不是是你認為我們不適合成立你要講理由因為我們的理由已經清楚了嘛對大家都有好處啊所以這個時候我們就排除政治的干擾那我們也在訴求幾個大國他的經濟體特別大的像日本 英國這些都是很有能量的那他如果能夠更清楚的表達這個共識決不是說誰否決權"},{"start":8771.375,"end":8783.326,"text":"而是不贊成成立工作小組的國家要說明台灣是哪裡不適合我了解 我們都很支持我下一步要問的就是說這個工作小組的成立會落在什麼時候"},{"start":8784.247,"end":8805.067,"text":"我們在今年底因為這個CPTPP在澳大利亞開會的時候會就要新成立陸會工作小組的國家來進行討論所以在今年的年底進行討論那你們的預估這樣子的一個討論是就是成功的機率大嗎或者是說有什麼挑戰我這樣問好了"},{"start":8805.928,"end":8829.708,"text":"會有什麼樣的挑戰因為去年只通過了哥斯大黎加但是哥斯大黎加的陸會事實上也遇到困難所以顯然今年我想CPTPP的這個年會他是需要有新的國家成為陸會的工作小組成立所以我們現在要爭取所以就是我們用工作小組成立的方式就先爭取我這樣看一下對不對先爭取成立工作小組是嗎"},{"start":8832.58,"end":8853.692,"text":"我們已經申請了我們要申請工作小組成立去談判我們申請成立工作小組這件事情不等於工作小組已經成立這樣還沒成立 對吧但是我們也產生諮商了先不要浪費時間開始諮商所以我知道剛剛有提過因為只把順序再梳理一次所以我們現在要申請成立工作小組"},{"start":8854.392,"end":8883.773,"text":"那工作小組能不能夠順利成立的話就是看今年年底的時候在這個大會上面然後大家的討論那如果能夠順利成立的如果沒能順利成立的話那該怎麼辦我們希望大會有一些新的解釋來放寬對於奧克蘭三原則的解釋特別是共識覺的定義我同意這樣對我們是最好的但是我只是想問一下就是我們總是會有一個就是好的如果好的話那是"},{"start":8884.193,"end":8909.603,"text":"因為如果說成立的話呢那我們就往這個方向邁進我覺得是跨出一步那我也會覺得很高興可是如果說年底這個工作小組的申請被否決的話那我們還有什麼樣的他沒有否決就是沒有排進去就是沒成功嘛就沒有成立成功嘛那你沒有成立成功那肯定是對方不管是說否決沒有共識或什麼等等但總之如果是這個方向的話那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":8911.105,"end":8936.644,"text":"我們進行跟12個國家都雙邊其實實質來談他們要什麼我們要什麼就是說我們怎麼樣去讓大家減少反對我們的力量所以這是成功的這個方向我要問的是說如果這些努力那它並沒有被認可在最後那可能因為各種原因什麼打壓什麼都有可能我們也很清楚知道我們的處境那如果沒有成功的申請"},{"start":8938.345,"end":8966.463,"text":"這個入會小組的話我們下一步驟我們要怎麼處置我們要怎麼辦我跟妳講我們就是同步展開實質諮商跟各國嘛雙邊之間另外一個就是我們希望大會也有一些有我的文字通過就是說比如說對共識覺的解釋避免不斷的被少數的人可是現在沒有人反對我們啦現在只是說有一半以上的國家都是主要的大國都支持可是怎麼樣我們也跟他們溝通比如說像日本 英國"},{"start":8967.764,"end":8994.671,"text":"這個是可以帶動的通常現在都不會說反對啦那到成不成立這個都是12月的時候大家在牌桌上才會攤開嘛那當然我希望我們是一切順利那可是我還是要講就是說我們今年那年底如果說申請加入那沒能成功的話那到再隔年我們有沒有更具體的就更進一步的具體方案還是說我們就維持先前我們的這個諮商啊"},{"start":8995.191,"end":9017.48,"text":"然後我們的研究報告的向各國的這個說帖就再重複一遍這個動作所以就您懂我意思嗎就如果年底的狀況對我們來說不是這麼符合我們的預期那我們是要再重複一次這個過程還是說我們有新的政策新的方向那可以再去突破那讓我們有可能加入CPTPP"},{"start":9018.499,"end":9036.179,"text":"對 就是委員講的我們就再接再厲因為我們實質上各國跟我們的雙邊的利益我們加入之後除了對它有利以外其他的可能會有一些互相之間要談的事情比如說有些國家我們可能有葫蘆跟棒棍"},{"start":9037.1,"end":9052.047,"text":"有些國家他大國他說你去跟其他國家都講好之後我也會支持可是我們要拜託他你可以發揮領導力出來帶頭這當然都是這個一個溝通的過程那我們希望能夠順利不過呢還是希望就是外交部這邊在要做好"},{"start":9053.968,"end":9069.646,"text":"不是最好的打算而已那最壞的打算之後的下一步我覺得也要做一個規劃因為呢我們台灣就是在這個加入CPTPP如果真的這麼容易的話那這幾年齁這個三年早就已經有一個初步的成果"},{"start":9070.367,"end":9096.342,"text":"那沒有他一定是遇到了一些實質上的問題怎麼樣去解決這個問題讓台灣有加入CPTPP的可能那我們不希望三年之後又下一個三年因為如果真的沒有辦法的話也希望政府能夠我們誠實以對我們碰到什麼問題可能是沒有辦法加入成功的那不要每一次呢都給了民眾很多的期望希望但最後呢一年又一年一年又一年的過去了我們還是沒有申請成功"},{"start":9097.282,"end":9101.43,"text":"所以希望我們在年底的時候可以聽到您的好結果好嗎好 我們來努力謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢"},{"start":9115.722,"end":9120.047,"text":"謝謝主席一起各位先進有請外交部的林部長還有經貿談判的總管經貿談判辦公室先談一下外交"},{"start":9134.329,"end":9161.201,"text":"林部長好 剛才你提了很多APEC的問題中國大陸明年要在深圳辦APEC他說要遵守一中原則才給我們參加請問你要如何 您不參加嗎我們已經有發新聞稿 予以駁斥平等參與是我們的權利請問你台北是不是一中原則"},{"start":9163.883,"end":9172.789,"text":"這個不能這樣解釋所以就一個潛意識台配各自表述嘛對不對 你認為潛意識台配不是一中原則他如果認為是 去就沒問題啦我們今年去林心理代團去就是潛意識台配啊那明年去深圳也是潛意識台配我們會籍的名稱這個沒有問題 委員這沒有問題我們講的時候他講一中原則是他用其他的方式啊"},{"start":9188.479,"end":9215.549,"text":"他會叫你口頭講 他也不會叫你口頭講啊他嘴巴裡講好了 你們已經遵守了因為你用錢是台幣 所以我就讓你來這樣最好啊我跟委員報告 因為APEC是共識決如果他這樣子這樣子就是扭曲 違反APEC的規定那我們共識決我們就否決啊 我們就反對啊這很多事情我們就不需要去支持他啦所以你就不去了不是啊 待會要去啊"},{"start":9217.278,"end":9219.199,"text":"其實是他在難過 又不是我們現在我要跟你講你沒有回答我問題我的意思是說怎麼因應他 我認為這個你可以大聲講潛意識台北更是表述他認為是一種原則就很好了我認為你認為不是 那就不是吧"},{"start":9239.881,"end":9258.058,"text":"那是我們的會籍名稱本來就是如此那跟一中原則沒有關係他要扭曲 誤解我們當然會予以駁斥如果他過頭了我們會予以反制怎麼反制啊因為他是共識爵所以你大會 人家不理你呢所以很多國家也會不理他"},{"start":9259.132,"end":9273.245,"text":"這樣子喔你這麼有把握我們上次在秘魯就是這樣子才逼得他那個書面承諾你今天要違反承諾那不是公然跟世界作對嗎你知不知道你上一任的部長外交部長吳釗燮他任內斷交幾國請委員告訴我八國他任內斷交八國林佳龍部長到現在為止斷交幾國"},{"start":9285.424,"end":9296.37,"text":"沒有沒有喔成績不錯啊但是現在有一股就危險了盛文森現任的總理說如果對手選贏就這個Mr."},{"start":9296.37,"end":9302.834,"text":"Friday他名字叫Friday 禮拜五這個說對手如果選贏會跟台灣斷交我更care的是斷交以後他跟我們貸款93億會變成呆帳你有沒有掌握這個訊息這個10月16號的新聞"},{"start":9314.724,"end":9330.968,"text":"我們對於我想聖文森的關係是得到跨黨派的支持對 他講的他說如果對手許哨他們的選舉我們也是予以尊重但是我想我們對台聖之間的關係也是有信心對 但是他說如果是對方贏他會跟台灣斷交那就好 那我就重要的問題在這裡了請問到現在為止我們因為斷交產生的斷交呆帳有多少錢"},{"start":9344.93,"end":9360.298,"text":"來我請同仁有沒有因為這個東西要統計啦因為各別國家的情形你要問那麼多是從什麼時候到什麼時候哪幾個國家累積到現在嘛累積到現在因為有一些是我們是我們是有權利的有些還在訴訟有的還在打官司嘛但是我就說2017年底外交代帳是150億還沒update有沒有來來來來我們長官"},{"start":9369.562,"end":9382.028,"text":"跟委員報告我們所有的財款我們都是用商業模式的方式進行所以我們都會有爭端解決跟這個我知道啦 你要打官司到我們就認為官司錢啊不回來啊沒有不會跟委員報告這些不是所謂的呆帳目前都在正常的還本還息當中跟委員報告150億以後2017年150億都還在拿本金嗎拿本金拿利息嗎沒有現在都在還本還息"},{"start":9398.717,"end":9412.796,"text":"你看一下不是這樣子喔然後在訴訟當中的部分而已啦部分不是全部啦有兩國我們在訴訟當中那訴訟我們也勝訴所以也都在正常的還本還息哪兩國"},{"start":9414.714,"end":9420.74,"text":"是很早以前早年斷交的在中非的兩國我就告訴林部長你要去追這個啊這個盛文森遙遙遇罪你要加油啊你不要學上一任部長任內斷八國如果你任內斷八國的話就剩兩國"},{"start":9434.332,"end":9439.456,"text":"最後一個問題你這次到歐洲去旁邊有個團跑去北約是怎麼樣要跟北約談說請北約來亞洲打造亞洲的北約版是不是我們台灣跟歐盟也好北約也好很多國家都有戰略溝通是有談到這個嗎說亞洲版的北約要成立這個嗎希望它成立有沒有"},{"start":9464.026,"end":9472.506,"text":"因為這個細節都因為涉及到很多雙邊往來我們的這個大家的一個默契或共識最少不排除嘛"},{"start":9473.578,"end":9483.08,"text":"沒有 我只是這個就涉及到一些雙邊往來的好 最後一個問題我們要遵守的一些最後一個問題這個國科會主委在APEC跟美方討論台灣模式是不是正式的蕭副總統說的台灣半導體的生態系都要移植到美國是不是這樣子不是移植是擴展我們台灣的國力到美國打造台美聯合艦隊那美國優先台灣也優先"},{"start":9503.564,"end":9509.346,"text":"你知道這個要多少錢嗎其實這個要多少廠商去 你知道嗎你也不知道嗎我知道我以前擔任過台中市長的時候那個中科就在那裡 我很清楚所以要幾家過去就是 百家以上嗎它這個一個產業聚落要形成一個產業鏈我跟委員講就是我那個新聯合國際的這個所謂新國際聯合艦隊以大代小"},{"start":9532.476,"end":9536.079,"text":"公私協力 軟硬結合內外兼修這四個變成佈局台灣成為經濟的部落國到美國去 打造台美聯合艦隊希望啦 我們大家一起努力我跟你講"},{"start":9547.486,"end":9563.897,"text":"不是每一個Supply Chain都像台積電現金滿滿的 不是他裡面來講很清楚他的資金有限他在台灣立個廠你要帶到美國去對他來講是不是很辛苦所以要打金價一起如果要出去那就沒錢啊"},{"start":9566.718,"end":9576.643,"text":"這個經貿辦可以回答一下這裡面我算一算就差不多原來講的要投資4千億美金換取關稅降低以及不要點家這樣講話對不對"},{"start":9582.498,"end":9597.152,"text":"剛剛委員的問題是說是不是用4000億對 就是這個supply chain整個生態系過去了嘛 對不對那這個就是外界一直講我們要投資4000億美金就從這裡來的 不是嗎"},{"start":9600.531,"end":9623.6,"text":"跟委員報告我們剛剛林部長也有提到我們台灣的模式投資美國不是要產業外移是要產業的外擴跟延伸金額多少金額多少金額多少錢是產業的力量的外擴跟延伸台灣模式他強調的是企業主席站起來我要下去了你告訴我金額多少"},{"start":9624.68,"end":9642.971,"text":"金額多少要投資金額你都沒有算過這個是有企業自主規劃然後政府會去整合然後增加對業者支持然後重要是通過台美政府跟政府之間的你要準備好這個答案啦外界一直想知道這樣子要投資多少啦謝謝接下來請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":9657.799,"end":9658.725,"text":"主席好 我們歡迎外交部長謝謝請部長"},{"start":9667.376,"end":9692.498,"text":"部長好前幾天CNN有報導說部長您本人在聯合國大會期間有一個參敘然後本來想要邀請一些美國的官員來但是重量級都沒有出現然後我有看到外交部有澄清有澄清 澄清那種我都看了但是現在我覺得裡面還是有幾件事情提醒部長第一個CNN怎麼會無緣無故報導這個東西"},{"start":9694.292,"end":9708.016,"text":"他不是國內媒體他是美國的自由派左派的媒體他的消息來源是來自於哪裡你有稍微推敲一下嗎他是錯誤的訊息總之有消息來源那是誰要搞你有沒有可能是國安會的我覺得他這個外媒他怎麼樣去取得訊息會做這個報導因為其實我受邀去"},{"start":9721.899,"end":9743.955,"text":"紐約出席活動這個主辦單位也報導過現場也很多人所以怎麼會沒有去查證部長這個我都知道所以我說我看過你們的聲明但是關鍵就是你要了解一下CNN是美國的主流媒體怎麼會無緣故報導一則對你不利對你不利就是對台灣不利"},{"start":9745.897,"end":9772.316,"text":"謝謝確實都是那為什麼會這樣為什麼會這樣你沒有去了解一下那個都講到講成這樣了我們堂堂中華民國外交部長到美國去設宴美國人都不理大家都用行程很忙為由不來他還模擬我的心情說我很挫折真的是編故事也太離譜了如果是這樣當然挫折但是不然不要再歪樓了第一個你要去了解為什麼CNN會有這樣的報導"},{"start":9773.781,"end":9797.316,"text":"你又管道嘛就是認知作戰的一部分啊所以CNN被誰認知作戰他們不管是故意或是不小心他就成為認知作戰的一部分被誰嘛 被誰認知作戰被誰認知作戰他的報導者啊不是啦 部長我跟你講 我們的外交常常面臨到這樣的狀況就是當我們外交受挫 我認為啦CNN報導這個事情"},{"start":9798.917,"end":9823.067,"text":"是外交上一個小挫折他連查證都沒有也沒來問我你可以罵他我都沒有意見就亂報你可以抱怨這個Google就有了你可以抱怨我去紐約這個事情連主辦單位還有一些像會書的總統因為今天是答今天是尋答如果你很委屈你開直播好不好你開直播去講講兩個小時沒有差但是你要了解的事不是說現在很爛被認知作戰"},{"start":9824.187,"end":9836.903,"text":"就沒事了因為你是外交部長你要去了解為什麼這個狀況嘛人家現在為什麼這個報導嘛這第一件事情啦第二件事情是你現在不要再抱怨了第二個"},{"start":9840.346,"end":9867.649,"text":"部長 自從您上任之後外媒啊 批評台灣特別多以前蔡英文總統的時候沒有這麼多而且不是美國媒體喔日本媒體也是喔從朝日新聞 獨賣新聞產經新聞國傳師你的認識你如果自我感覺良好當然認識跟我不同嘛但是朝日獨賣產經從自由派到保守派 日本媒體對台灣都在我們的領導人都在批評"},{"start":9868.75,"end":9890.733,"text":"而且小立遠這樣講那結果你覺得沒差所以有時候我覺得如果外交沒有沒有病識感的話是最嚴重的不是澄清的問題是說以前沒有這個現象為什麼現在才有嘛你發現這個現象除了澄清之外你要去了解到底我們發生什麼事情為什麼那麼多媒體以前沒有這樣一直批評台灣現在那麼多嘛"},{"start":9891.834,"end":9908.548,"text":"關鍵是在要去了解基本上肯定還是比較多啦肯定多對啊好那你就活在那樣自己的世界就好了嘛如果我們在跟妳建議什麼或是把問題跟妳講妳就說沒有我很棒我很讚我很好那我覺得我覺得這樣子自我感覺良好的部長那我們的外交就這樣啊"},{"start":9909.81,"end":9939.395,"text":"就這樣啦你如果都那麼自我感覺良好的話就是這樣了嘛那確實就是我剛剛講的都是有憑有據也不是我掰出來的嘛所以你當然你要去了解說那為什麼現在是會有出現這個狀況那我知道外交部現在很積極在經營右派媒美國右派媒體啦都找一些跟那個讓美國再次偉大派Mega派的那些Podcast或者是自媒體的或者是一些主持人這種媒體希望訪問希望透過他們去影響川普嘛那"},{"start":9939.875,"end":9960.331,"text":"你們現在對於美國的左派媒體或自由派媒體還有在持續經營嗎全面經營不分左右所以有這樣的經營還有這樣的消息出來我覺得那就要再加強還要再努力了因為CNN的消息來源你說認知作戰那到底誰放的是國安會放的嗎"},{"start":9961.272,"end":9969.355,"text":"我們現在都發現你好像跟吳釗燮不合嘛要去了解誰放他明明就錯誤連查證都沒有那誰放的好不要再抱怨了誰放的然後第二個一定也有美國當地的消息那美國人為什麼要弄我們嘛你要去了解嘛如果有誤會要澄清嘛如果你覺得美國人也在對CNN政治作戰在對台灣不利的話那更要去溝通啊而不是我們躲在台灣說我被認知作戰了就當作沒看到嘛"},{"start":9990.424,"end":10016.642,"text":"我們一定要有所因應然後再來就是你能不能夠澄清第一時間也沒澄清啊CNN報導之後隔了兩天之後台灣媒體報之後才澄清太慢了嘛太慢就會讓人家覺得說外交部是有點心虛否則第一時間像我們的政府很喜歡找一些那種假消息是大家都沒看過的假消息第一時間大動作澄清大家想說有這個我們都不知道但是像CNN的報導就澄清得很慢也是很奇怪"},{"start":10017.907,"end":10032.884,"text":"這個部分要加強還有我想延續一下剛剛那個賴思寶委員的問題因為也是外媒透露這就比較正面就是說這個林佳龍部長九月份有去歐洲參訪說是部長本人親自策劃是您親自策劃的嗎"},{"start":10034.452,"end":10048.405,"text":"我自己出去我當然自己策劃原來是這樣子因為那個媒體報導的把你解滿偉大原來只是這樣而已好 那親自策 親自策劃然後然後去了捷克 荷蘭 義大利然後說要跟歐盟"},{"start":10049.398,"end":10065.728,"text":"還要擬定一個SCADS的戰略包括半導體 人工智慧 國防跟監偵四大領域然後那個媒體報導還講說那個林佳龍部長跟吳志忠市長是親歐派的跟蕭美琴還有吳釗燮親美派不一樣"},{"start":10066.428,"end":10091.482,"text":"你們現在認為說要積極發展跟歐洲的關係要加強 但是我跟美國我也是在美國念書我們台美關係很穩定發展這個不矛盾了對 不矛盾我也覺得不矛盾但媒體是這樣寫的要加強歐洲但不是說台美關係不重要對 所以這個媒體也被認知作戰了然後我是想問一下我們現在你還 那時候徐思簡徐思簡他也到了"},{"start":10092.438,"end":10103.305,"text":"北約去了嘛剛剛賴斯堡委員有問說是不是要發展亞洲北約那我是想問一下你們現在講說要跟歐洲發展國防的合作請問一下是要跟歐洲買武器嗎還是怎麼樣的當然溝通完之後可以合作的項目譬如就涉及不同的部會啊譬如說是要比如渦輪機我們就從溝通到投資合作到現在我想這個是就是一個項目"},{"start":10121.858,"end":10148.474,"text":"那我跟委員講最重要是我售銷去兩個智庫演講的東西的內容我可以提供你的參考一個是在波蘭的華沙安全論壇另外一個是在荷蘭的海牙戰略研究中心這兩個因為我提出了全面性的台歐合作的計畫包括歐洲要再工業化再武裝歐洲那我們台灣可以扮演的角色我比較關心的是剛剛艾瑟爾委員關心半導體啦我也是同時關心半導體跟國防啦"},{"start":10149.955,"end":10157.48,"text":"就是到底要怎麼跟歐洲合作國防的部分他們是要賣武器給我們還是要他們會提供技術嗎協助我們海昆號現在平井嗎"},{"start":10158.843,"end":10183.221,"text":"還是要發展亞洲北約咧到底是哪一個文鮑我們是戰略溝通戰略溝通是什麼戰略就是針對共同的溫泉就是大家聊聊天然後我們可以合作的空間這個事宜展開之後有相關部會會後續他們可以去對接好 這是很抽象那個媒體把你講得很神但是你講得很抽象我私底下在跟你分享媒體被認知作戰了謝謝謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":10189.4,"end":10192.582,"text":"接下來請王宏威委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 請一下林佳龍部長請部長就備巡台部長 你是戰龍嗎"},{"start":10220.119,"end":10223.207,"text":"我是佳龍如果按照文字應該是好龍啦戰貓 戰龍"},{"start":10226.98,"end":10232.682,"text":"我是林佳龍 就是顧名思義要耐死一點你是溫柔的龍就佳龍佳龍我看你現在已經轉化成戰龍了剛才葉元之委員特別提到CNN報導那個報導你竟然跟他講說這樣的是一個認知作戰那他說這不是CNN報導這不是台灣的媒體報導你說這就是一個認知作戰好歹CNN是"},{"start":10257.216,"end":10262.121,"text":"美國的一個主流媒體雖然川普跟CNN的關係非常差他告這個CNN但是你作為一個外交部長在立法院接受質詢針對這個事情直接指涉CNN是認知作戰就這一個報導本身我覺得這就是CNN報導啊我覺得這個問題很大我們希望他更正"},{"start":10279.497,"end":10292.62,"text":"CNN過去你可以去要求他更正但是你說他是配合認知作戰這就不妥啊這是不是失言請問一下部長是不是失言CNN過去對台對台來講也算是算是友好的啊那媒體容或有一些報導你認為報導的失誤或者相關的評論但是你把CNN現在歸類為說他配合認知作戰就這個報導本身是一個"},{"start":10306.224,"end":10310.946,"text":"認知錯占的一部分他是不是不小心或者是怎麼樣因為他可以很輕易的查證那也許有疏失但是就整個他配合誰認知錯占我想我的不是說是哪一個媒體認知錯占而是說這背後有一個勢力你在這裡就是嚴重的失言其實老實說部長我覺得你腦筋很不清楚你剛剛還得意洋洋說策劃"},{"start":10328.951,"end":10330.954,"text":"去歐洲訪問非常好你到智庫歐洲的智庫去演講也非常好結果被外媒披露說我們另外一個團去訪問了北約總部那剛才媒體也有問你請問一下外媒報導是事實嗎"},{"start":10349.261,"end":10371.417,"text":"哪一點我們在歐洲的訪問團裡面其中有一團到北約總部訪問因為這前後很多團那我們在做戰略溝通也有一團比如說我在波蘭所以確實有到北約總部訪問嗎我們不予證實也不予否認所以也就是默認就不予評論部長"},{"start":10373.439,"end":10377.32,"text":"我要講說你說對歐洲的關係很重要我們完全同意啊所以我剛才說我們去歐洲訪問外交部長去演講或者我們拓展跟歐洲各國的這個相關的關係對外關係或者經貿合作採購投資相互的往來都非常好但是我想請問一下台海之間難道還不夠危險嗎"},{"start":10401.988,"end":10409.852,"text":"世界各國的媒體都報導台灣台海是現在全世界非常危險的地方北約是什麼組織啊北約是經貿組織嗎他是單純的他的那個組織是軍事同盟是對抗俄羅斯的軍事同盟"},{"start":10420.253,"end":10431.342,"text":"我想請問一下我們已經有一個這麼強大的中國的軍事威脅我請問你 你今天要去得罪俄羅斯幹什麼北約組織是一個軍事同盟台灣有能力去跟北約軍事同盟嗎"},{"start":10439.943,"end":10442.865,"text":"我們需要一連串去得罪這些核武大國嗎所以我覺得你們腦筋真的不清楚發展外交發展經貿合作我們舉雙手贊成不要去搞那種軍事對抗台灣沒有這種條件去跟人家核武大國去搞軍事對抗你是要透露什麼樣的訊息"},{"start":10463.103,"end":10475.431,"text":"你是要透露什麼樣的訊息你覺得台灣的軍事威脅還不夠嗎所以我真的覺得這種都是腦筋不清楚好大喜功然後以為我們現在要提高國防支出3%不夠 5% 10%俄羅斯也來跟我們對抗好嗎"},{"start":10483.342,"end":10499.139,"text":"另外 請教一下因為這次川習會結束之後因為他們又透露一個訊息川普明年4月要到中國訪問那我想請問一下因為之前"},{"start":10500.22,"end":10521.981,"text":"我們賴總統一直希望能夠藉由出訪的機會過境美國東岸但是呢一直的說法是因為會與川習會的關係所以美國有一些疑慮所以我們沒有辦法過境這個美國東岸那我想請問一下部長"},{"start":10524.045,"end":10548.918,"text":"川習會之後 雖然終於川習會了可是他現在又來一個卡一個川習 就是川普要到美國訪問中國 對不起 到中國訪問那所以我們在這半年之間我們有可能突破讓賴總統能夠過境美國出訪我們的友邦嗎我講的是東南"},{"start":10552.012,"end":10569.003,"text":"報告委員 元首出訪都是我們外交部的重要政務我們也都會持續在評估規劃但至於說決定以及對外的說明由總統府他們目前我們沒有什麼訊息可以提供所以繼續規劃中"},{"start":10572.52,"end":10574.481,"text":"繼續規劃中當然我們一定會評估嘛因為這個我請問部長因為有川習會的關係所以使得外界都認為說因為當時蔡英文總統非常快速的就過境美國出訪邦交國那麼"},{"start":10591.87,"end":10593.691,"text":"那麼現在專行會結束之後那以現在的情勢你認為在短期內你可以成功的去規劃你剛剛不講你都策劃嗎那你可以策劃或者規劃然後我們賴總統可以過境美國出訪嗎"},{"start":10610.947,"end":10626.394,"text":"元首出訪是外交部重要的政務我們會持續的推動至於說如果有具體的決定或者是相關的安排那會由總統府對外來說明好 那另外請問一下川習會後你覺得台美關係是變得更好還是可能會有所受影響或變得更壞一點"},{"start":10636.278,"end":10655.183,"text":"我跟委員報告 其實我在這裡備詢我就在講台美關係要有信心我們對於像川習會這些APEC開會我們是要關心但不必過度擔心那現在事後也證明我想很多過去的一些不確定性甚至有一些大家很擔心的地方已經現在很清楚就是這個因為沒有談到台灣大家鬆一口氣"},{"start":10660.885,"end":10665.768,"text":"不過因為不曉得啦就說我剛剛講說明年四月出訪行程搞不好又會申辯這也說不一定啦那只是說你未來這個川普又出訪的行程那麼可能未來半年我們可能還是處於一個不確定因素比較多的那我想請問一下國際情勢永遠有它不確定的地方對 沒有錯我想請問一下喔在川習會之後因為呢中美兩國的防長也見面了是"},{"start":10689.804,"end":10700.476,"text":"我覺得這個對於消除台海之間的一些這個危機其實我認為有利不要有做誤判但是呢美國其實先是叫戰爭部他的戰爭部部長赫格賽斯他發文說他"},{"start":10707.063,"end":10712.684,"text":"認為美中關係現在是前所未有的良好那我想請問一下在這樣的一個敘述之下你認為會不會影響到台美關係台灣是不是會受影響報告委員美中關係美台關係可以是平行的所以我們也不認為說美中關係不好就對台灣好那美中關係如果好也可能可以對台灣好那取決於我們台灣跟美國的關係怎麼加強"},{"start":10736.775,"end":10755.308,"text":"所以你至少到目前為止你不認為川習會之後或者是赫格塞茲他的發文之後那麼台美關係有受到任何影響對 我跟委員報告至少沒有意外另外我們更確定了包括他們的談話不斷跟我們溝通的也都如原來溝通的內容這樣子發展在川習會之後美國有跟我們報告相關的所有我們都有這樣的這個管道所有的資訊都有掌握"},{"start":10766.637,"end":10769.319,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請洪孟凱委員上台質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請林佳龍部長請林部長"},{"start":10795.919,"end":10823.302,"text":"部長好 外交是一體的外交是讓我們中華民國可以被世界看到所以不分黨派我們要共同支持外交但是面對到真正的問題我們也必須要看到問題面對問題才能解決問題不是一句說認知作戰可以帶過我覺得這是本席剛剛在幾個委員跟你質詢的時候你回答的會讓本席覺得是說那我們到底有沒有掌握確實的問題"},{"start":10825.009,"end":10847.284,"text":"CNN的這一個報導現在我也看到了我們之後有陳青陳青講是說其實不是 真相翻轉還有好多的媒體也都寫說其實那一天很多的來賓有來你也有跟他們有碰面等等相關部分 是不是是嗎對那為什麼會出現這一篇新聞"},{"start":10848.274,"end":10867.905,"text":"我跟委員講CNN他沒有去查證嘛因為主辦單位也都有貼文啊CNN沒有查證那篇報導有幾位記者寫那篇報導有幾位記者寫你知道嗎幾位我是不知道他問過幾位或者是他們幾位那篇報導據名就有幾位記者他是幾個記者一起寫的報導他怎麼去編輯上怎麼去變成一篇報導部長您先聽本席把問題問完"},{"start":10877.433,"end":10891.008,"text":"國會殿堂上外交部長公然講CNN的記者沒有查證就這則新聞報導沒有查證因為可以很明顯就查證了我們要確認的是說那四位記者裡面他們都具名的報導"},{"start":10892.41,"end":10917.581,"text":"據名的掛名我們有去詢問這四位來確認是說你們到底怎麼會報導出來你們為什麼沒有查證那麼重要的事情中華民國不重要嗎台灣不重要嗎結果你CNN那麼國際媒體可以不查證然後報導一個猶如我們國格的新聞因為他不能查證這很嚴重啊馬上就查證了那所以問題在哪裡就他們疏失啊"},{"start":10918.061,"end":10938.398,"text":"他們疏失所以他們四個記者沒有人查證所以CNN就是完全疏失然後後面還有認知作戰因為這事實的問題這不是評價的問題還有認知作戰背後有一個認知作戰的集團所以認知作戰集團把CNN給收買了被運用了但是就這個事情來講把錯的CNN收買了把這四個記者給收買了你不能這樣講你不會過度推論就這個事實的認定"},{"start":10943.502,"end":10970.517,"text":"事實的認定明顯錯誤來 部長他沒有去查證來 部長可能是被設計了或怎麼樣好 被設計了事後也可以再澄清道歉這四位記者被設計了那有沒有澄清道歉目前還沒有好 我們再交涉其中這四位記者本席看了他有掛資深的安全記者國安記者甚至有一位記者叫Will他是CNN駐台北資深記者"},{"start":10971.658,"end":10995.647,"text":"那事發一個禮拜了他竟然住台北啊我們外交部有沒有請他來喝咖啡來聊一下我們有請同仁去要求澄清啊那有沒有問因為你竟然都敢在國會殿堂裡面公然講說CNN完全沒有查證報導一個子虛烏有的新聞那本席就要問是說我們後續的處理因為這很嚴重喔"},{"start":10996.721,"end":11010.317,"text":"部長本席有一說一這並不複雜啦因為對 就是不複雜所以說你敢這樣子公開的指責CNN我是點出啦並且你也講了這四個記者他們沒有查證那其中一個記者就在台北啊那到目前為止我們要求他的什麼"},{"start":11014.622,"end":11018.526,"text":"我們的國傳司跟外媒記者都有在聯繫來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":11030.097,"end":11055.857,"text":"我本身就已經有表示說希望他們能夠針對錯誤的報導來澄清嘛因為這個包括像因為您講的其實是一個很嚴重的事情他把那個訊息的information flow把它弄出來之後就知道哪個環節被放大被扭曲本席如果說證實他們都沒有查證他們自己關在辦公室裡面隨便亂編文章然後有辱我們國格該提告要提告"},{"start":11056.858,"end":11079.879,"text":"因為這是一個很嚴重的事情但是我覺得現在比較比較危險的地方是可能有事情或者說他可能擴大但是部長在國會殿堂裡面講的是說他們是完全子虛烏有他們是捏造的不是事實然後結果具名的記者因為我覺得您這樣講可能還會傷害到因為你本身有當過新聞局長所以你也很了解"},{"start":11080.62,"end":11091.792,"text":"可能對於記者的他的聲譽他的報導都有一定喔我覺得這樣子你搞不好會到這邊是CNN記者要來告外交部喔因為你剛講那句話給我10秒鐘來 請這個報導說我在某個餐廳請客沒有人來嘛"},{"start":11098.559,"end":11113.495,"text":"可是這個餐廳就不是我請客他沒有講哪個餐廳所以這個事情Google就可以查到所以他去引用人說我因為這個做主人沒有人來賞光我很難過然後非常的有挫敗"},{"start":11115.357,"end":11122.244,"text":"我就林佳龍在這裡啊你來問我就好啦他沒有訪問你去採測你的心情這個我覺得不應該但是你說完全把這篇報導講說它是一個捏造甚至講說後面是認知作戰我覺得這一點真的是好來我不是說西安在認知作戰我是說"},{"start":11134.315,"end":11163.323,"text":"我要說明喔不是我說CNN是背後在川習會跟APEC前後有一個集團包括很多其他媒體他們也在操作他們因為媒體他是報導他可能沒有去了解這個背景好來那我再請教因為所以我要正中呈現我並不是說某個媒體我是有一個認知作用的集團在背後操作我們來看國內媒體那國內媒體上報在10月10號也有一個新聞他直接我覺得寫得也很硬也很重"},{"start":11163.883,"end":11187.182,"text":"也很危險講說賴清德國安團隊鬧國際笑話駐台使節關切吳釗燮跟林佳龍不和任職作戰嗎我們都有分工啊國安會有國安的角色外交部有外交部的角色所以這篇報導可信度多高你說報導哪一點就是駐台使節都關切吳釗燮跟林佳龍不和啊然後國安團隊鬧國際笑話這是他們的這個"},{"start":11191.826,"end":11209.148,"text":"有沒有查證沒有查證他也沒有查證對啊哇 那這樣我們的媒體現在在民進黨政府的督導之下所有都可以沒有查證然後寫了國安團隊鬧國際笑話那我們有沒有對上報有做提告"},{"start":11210.094,"end":11232.251,"text":"我跟委員報告 有時候外媒的第一報導在我們國內擴大扭曲不是 我在講是10月10號上報的報導我是跟委員講 我們陸續把資訊流查出來之後有一些環節是國內的媒體去選擇性的去解釋甚至是扭曲把它放大"},{"start":11232.972,"end":11252.694,"text":"我們要知道媒體試讀我們沒有去說哪一個點就是這個問題而是說它的這個整個流程是背後有這個認知作戰的痕跡我們也需要了解媒體試讀讓讀到的人不會被現在有一些政治人物是建立在錯誤的訊息事實上在批評我們"},{"start":11253.635,"end":11266.163,"text":"所以我們見不到我們想見的人等於開宗明義就講我覺得到目前為止你這樣講如果全部都是推給認知作戰其實某種程度上才是對於我們外交辛苦的同仁的一個努力的抹煞"},{"start":11267.557,"end":11297.006,"text":"因為已經出現那麼多問題了本席再一次在外交官方委員會跟我們說外交同仁也來肯定因為我們過去也接觸過很多第一線優秀外交同仁但是如果說現在是上面的人互相的針鋒相對互相的針鋒之觸互相的在不和結果你大事化小小事化我幾位報導出來了還在講說沒有這是認知作戰沒有這個是捏造國際也是捏造國內也是捏造那我們還要信什麼"},{"start":11300.253,"end":11317.947,"text":"那部長最後啦好 抱歉一分鐘但是這個我也想說因為外交部長其實你的發言一言一行因為你畢竟是中華民國外交部你的黨派是什麼那都是黨派但是你的外交部可是你也有提到最近社群媒體平台也有提到"},{"start":11319.224,"end":11340.565,"text":"要力挺我們某一位院內的委員他爭取更高的職位人民服務那上午被問到的時候你也講說政治不離開人性啊然後要力挺不能被惡意抹黑啊那請教你的情資比較多啊那現在我們林委員是被誰惡意抹黑"},{"start":11342.113,"end":11360.423,"text":"我覺得參政權也是人權嘛那他現在有資格去參與初選我們就是尊重制度嘛對啊 因為我是一個政治人物我並不是選務人員所以我自己對於不管是就像說如果紅委員"},{"start":11361.663,"end":11382.117,"text":"你有什麼委屈或者是什麼樣我也是會覺得為你加油啊我一定在這邊義正嚴實因為本地有委屈但是你講啦你說力挺人家不要被惡意抹黑啊那我想請教一下那一定是我說不管你是善意的批評或惡意的抹黑其實我們政治人物都承擔很大的壓力所以現在林委員有沒有被惡意抹黑"},{"start":11382.659,"end":11394.492,"text":"我覺得讓他說話嘛因為這兩兆併成不能只是片面支持而在他說話之前都是另外一邊的話那今天他要說話我們要保障他說話的權利不管你同不同意他說話的內容"},{"start":11396.028,"end":11422.325,"text":"這是我一生為民主奮鬥我從學生時代我就對於人權啊我對每一個人啊都有就是說為他自己為社會去發聲的權利我覺得這個很重要部長這是你言論自由本席尊重我也不干涉因為這是你言論自由但本席真的是提醒你現在的工作一定是先國家再黨派這個人所以我自己對外交部長的角色我都是權力一副"},{"start":11423.846,"end":11443.319,"text":"就是要對得起外交部長的責任那還有真的不是一句話認知作戰啦真的面對問題解決問題才能夠真真正正的幫中華民國走出來我一定會把外交部長做好那我也是一個人除了做官做事也要會做人好 謝謝好"},{"start":11451.317,"end":11470.748,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請林倩琦林倩琦林倩琦委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有陳永康委員黃仁委員黃婕委員"},{"start":11472.449,"end":11485.347,"text":"林毅君委員、楊瓊英委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面以及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關機關兩週內已書面答覆"},{"start":11488.331,"end":11497.137,"text":"那在這裡我們也希望外交部主責是外交的部分那對於在國內有一些紛紛擾擾剛剛一直在提到對於CNN的這個報導如果他是有嚴重的一個錯誤我們要求外交部應該正式的去要求譴責或澄清"},{"start":11509.725,"end":11528.112,"text":"而不是私底下這樣做而且是在國會殿堂因為大家都會關注嘛那你用這樣的一個角度如果連這個都處理不好你外交要怎麼處理好那就這個部分我們要求外交部要有一個具體的作為然後提供給本委員會本次會議到此結束 散會 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}