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是它的名稱叫飛行家級那我們現在本來就針對不同的機型飛行家級是有分級制"},{"start":146.761,"end":174.461,"text":"那適度的分級就像某些國家它的飛行加級但它的待遇跟真正飛F35的飛電增機的會不一樣我們現在慢速機跟戰鬥機的飛行加級金額上有一些差異那個不同是可以接受因為危險係數不一樣但它叫飛行加級是一個飛行員的專業的尊重跟尊嚴所以既然你們要付它的加級"},{"start":176.108,"end":203.465,"text":"為什麼不讓他符合他在操作飛行器的這個部分我真的建議參謀長思考一下你可以給他叫飛行家級那你可以加一餅嗎報委員我們領飛行家級這還涉及到法的問題因為飛行家級他要符合空勤體位他每年要去做空勤體檢但是他實際上是沒有從事飛行的任務跟工作那您剛剛提到的我們也去查過國外他確實是領飛行家級他是要符合空勤體位他也必須每個月去同乘的也有"},{"start":204.245,"end":221.152,"text":"所以說這會造成我們很大的資源上的浪費我建議你去思考法規該改就改因為它必須有飛行的概念我們現在戰鬥機出去載空一個時間就要回來MQ-9上去一天不用回來是地面上那個飛行員換三班"},{"start":221.952,"end":237.5,"text":"他的體力啊專業的要求也會有我的意思說這是軍中同仁的心聲竟然有這個佳績叫飛行這兩個字是一個對有翅膀的飛行員來講這是有意義的然後他的飛行衣"},{"start":239.381,"end":260.774,"text":"希望能夠保留讓他可以穿飛行衣那這個是未來必要的趨勢這是一個先進的作戰方式我們無人機從手持的從單排用的一直到高高空的其他要求的操作員陸軍可能叫飛手可是在高高空的這個是飛行員那這飛行員名稱你把它拿掉了"},{"start":261.704,"end":285.703,"text":"那這個其實是我認為在心理上是有些打擊的再跟委員補充一個就是我們查了大概在韓國他們的無人機飛行他們也領飛行加急但是他只能領飛行加急的六分之一如果說這個比例相較於我們現在的這個戰鬥勤務加急的話空加的六分之一比戰鬥勤務加急還低啊所以說我們要維護我們的權益金額上因為危險的係數不同"},{"start":288.365,"end":303.078,"text":"本席尊重你們專業的判斷但對一個飛行員操作高高空無人機甚至有些是飛行員退下來移到那邊去的飛行加擠這個名詞如果能夠保留給予適度的尊重對國家沒有損失嘛"},{"start":304.219,"end":324.624,"text":"這國家哪有損失呢然後穿著飛行衣他操作的是飛行器但畢竟他人沒有在天上這個是有一些不同那個不同產生待遇的不同本席尊重你們判斷我現在只是建議在這個部分不要讓他覺得他就已經不是飛行員了我真的建議你們在研議的時候去思考這麼做對飛行員的尊重有"},{"start":325.857,"end":341.019,"text":"國家也沒有損失啊他叫飛行加擠跟戰鬥加擠的金額差不多國家沒有損失啊但他得到的是一份尊重就是我畢竟還是我們常講有翅膀的人不要把那個翅膀拔掉好不好這是一個建議另外我要請教部長"},{"start":342.18,"end":357.863,"text":"這一次在美國的環太平洋軍演31個國家這次有蠻多新的部分像首次讓韓國的海軍將領擔任指揮官來進行那它裡面這一次的環太平洋軍演"},{"start":358.604,"end":377.549,"text":"它有操作石炭的集成演練無人系統前緣科技最先進科技的超遠對接傳統核心海戰那它有三個目標就是反制印太區域的灰色地帶的威脅跟封鎖另外去壓制潛在的對手驗證跨國一體化指揮鏈就是這個"},{"start":383.57,"end":408.941,"text":"還沒有到單一作戰區但是跨國的一體化的指揮鏈以及嚇阻威權擴張大概是我是從這一次環太平洋軍營的文件看到這些東西第一個我請教我們這次也沒有被邀請美國參眾兩院也通過多次希望邀請台灣參加我請教部長台灣有沒有以任何我們不知道的形式參與其中"},{"start":410.792,"end":430.53,"text":"還是你不能講本部並沒有參演那我要請教就是以他這一次裡面提到的灰色地帶的威脅啦潛在的對手啦威權的擴張環太軍演的目標你覺得他這個潛在對手威權擴張在印太地區指的是誰"},{"start":431.584,"end":454.974,"text":"我想第一島鏈所要防衛的集體嚇阻的這個在第一島鏈或者甚至第二島鏈形成集體嚇阻這個對象當然都很清楚就是中國就是中國嘛我覺得這個就是很明顯的目標嘛這個所謂潛在對手威權擴張嚇阻對象就是中國而中國在第一島鏈威脅的重中之重就是台灣"},{"start":456.957,"end":479.984,"text":"那台灣在環太平洋軍演沒有參演可是他們演習的內容都跟台灣安全有關我聽起來很荒謬很不切實際所以我接下來要請教的是環太軍演是從6月26吧開始到7月嘛到7月22的樣子這是環太我們台灣的"},{"start":481.653,"end":506.806,"text":"立即備戰的操演是622到626我們漢光的實兵演習是在8月初我請教部長我們的操演跟環太 其實環太之後還有很多在印太地區澳洲跟美國 美國跟日本 日本菲律賓 美國跟韓國會有一連串的操演 都在6月底到"},{"start":507.466,"end":533.558,"text":"呃"},{"start":535.496,"end":563.426,"text":"我想我只能夠說我們的立即備戰操演跟聯合防禦操演是在我們的演練的目的當然是在不同的階段我剛才的問題就是我現在看到題目都跟台海周邊局勢有關然後台灣好像沒有被邀請參加可是同一時間我們這裡也在操演他們也在操演那我們的科目跟盟友的科目之間有沒有關聯性"},{"start":566.815,"end":592.875,"text":"委員問的是環太平洋的軍演我覺得現在更值得關注應該是現在在進行的堅毅之龍跟勇敢之盾這兩個才更值得我們再關注他裡面的科目跟我們的科目有關聯性嗎因為堅毅之龍他是聚焦在九州跟南溪諸島西南諸島"},{"start":594.276,"end":611.834,"text":"我們有時候叫南西諸島,有時候叫西南諸島。但是不管是怎麼叫,就是說這個部分當然涉及到有關島嶼的聯合作戰,特別是用遠征軍的這種概念。"},{"start":613.075,"end":631.471,"text":"以美國來講,是前沿部署延伸線的概念,結合日本的自衛隊來進行相關的操演,我想這個目標對象是非常清楚的另外勇敢之盾的話,它的規模更大,有美軍的航母跟相關的艦,還有先進的飛機"},{"start":634.714,"end":653.145,"text":"蔡英的國家,另外我們了解多了澳洲,還有其他的一些觀察。就第一島鏈、第二島鏈的聯合的引擎?它跨,它更大,它會比這個還要跨大一點,它包括了關島,甚至夏威夷,當然還有從日本的工程一直往下,到鹿兒島。"},{"start":657.27,"end":668.484,"text":"所以部長你用這個來回答我的提問就是台灣不管哪一個操演跟這些盟友相關的操演科目的關聯性你用這個來回答嗎"},{"start":670.501,"end":687.548,"text":"我想我只能回答到這裡。對,我知道。所以你用這個回答是好的回答。確實,我們是當事人,我們是局內人,我們不是局外人,不可能別人在那邊搔癢,我們在那邊化歇嘛。所以應該提到那兩個。事實上,環太軍事專業的部分比較低啦。"},{"start":688.422,"end":706.549,"text":"他比較像大拜拜你後面講金一之龍後面這幾個其實跟台灣的直接相關性更有關我本來想多問一個現在改回太平洋司令部這幾個軍演的J5有沒有串在一起"},{"start":708.41,"end":733.161,"text":"我們的軍演...太平洋司令部的改名他們已經說明了,他們的任務...我跟改名無關,我說我們的軍演他們的J-5有沒有派人來?上一次是八截龍有來嘛那個名牌是你們秀出來的,不是我秀的相關的這些部分我想...J-5來台灣,J-5也會去到日本"},{"start":734.642,"end":746.625,"text":"西南豬島那邊J-5也會在後面這個軍演也就是說太平洋司令部的J-5有沒有在這不同的軍演裡面去串請示範你可以講多少你講我不勉強啦"},{"start":748.462,"end":771.185,"text":"也讓國人知道台灣在這個安全網絡體系裡面並不孤單啊台灣在這個安全體系裡面世界民主盟友很重視我們家的安全我們應該最重視看到朋友還挺關心的好事啊所以我的意思說在不破壞默契不涉及機敏的情形下讓國人清楚知道其實是重要的所以"},{"start":771.986,"end":784.547,"text":"太平洋司令部的J5負責政策跟聯合的一些行動的部分我們的他上次有來那現在剛才部長用那幾個軍演展現我們跟這些部分的關聯性有沒有串在一起"},{"start":786.083,"end":811.187,"text":"我想我只能跟委員報告就是說我們的立即備戰操演聯合防疫操演跟漢光實兵演習都是一個一連串的一個演訓那所搭配的當然都是我們的結合我們的聯合作案計畫來驗證我們的聯合作案能力那只是不同的階段那漢光是全程不是我想聽秦師傅因為你的回答太標準我就講到這裡標準到跟沒有回答一樣其他的部分我想我們沒有辦法"},{"start":812.227,"end":827.234,"text":"不方便回答那秦司事你上來要講什麼包委員謝謝您剛剛的補充很多東西我問你簡單一點我們孤不孤單嗎台灣在印太的局勢裡面絕對不孤單"},{"start":829.782,"end":848.957,"text":"好啦我不為難你們啦我其實還有兩個題目但因為時間關係我提醒一下今天我們的題目在教召這個事情上你們有93%嘛都能夠援兵援專長援援單位我比較focus那7%啦那7%不能的原因在哪裡然後另外呢"},{"start":851.263,"end":874.504,"text":"女性現在自願役的女性官士兵她參加教召是採自願制我們要將來變強制這個當然要修法而且我看到是不分朝野很多女性的委員認為男女應該平等所以這個不是國防部單獨想出來的是立法院我在那邊看那麼多年一直在要求的所以這要修法而且不是所有女性都要來而是自願役的女性官士兵"},{"start":875.565,"end":901.76,"text":"從原來自願參加教召到現在納入教召的人力規劃所以你們修法案要提出來嘛那這裡面就牽涉到很多後勤補給我到野戰的戰場總是男女性有差別這裡面是一個大的工程所以第一個7%的沒辦法原能力回到原專長原因在哪裡第二個我們未來女性強制教召之後在後勤在相關作業上如何把這個"},{"start":903.201,"end":918.899,"text":"變成單位的負擔變成不是負擔這裡面不只是性平的東西這裡面很多裝備要跟上然後第三個我要問的問題是我們現在很多單位原兵原專長回原單位可是原單位的東西已經不見了"},{"start":919.56,"end":936.647,"text":"比方說我回到原單位260戰車不見現在是M1A2那M1A2在換專訓練的時候訓練能量都已經吃緊了我怎麼再去訓練這個短期的14天的或者將來自走砲都變A7的我原單位回來回訓專長已經不見就那個東西已經不見了這三個問題光復怎麼處理"},{"start":940.97,"end":954.445,"text":"第一個就是剛剛提到那個沒有辦法百分之百的那個部分我想這個跟過去我們必須坦白講跟過去因為我們長期有十四多年的四個月的軍事訓練役那因此"},{"start":956.187,"end":978.557,"text":"那志願役的部分退下來那要全部要擋到原兵歸原位要能夠滿足百分之百確實還沒有辦法完全能夠打到那義務役的部分因為過去是軍事訓練役四個月那全部都是沒有士官跟衛官的這個部分當然也造成我們在這個專長他的專長也沒有細分了啦"},{"start":979.597,"end":997.184,"text":"所以我們援兵規文要恢復立即戰力的這個情況之下確實有所以我們會做一些算是一些補充就是說有相類似的全動數在那邊可能要費心一點因為前四個月的連醫學院出來都步槍兵可惜了嘛"},{"start":998.464,"end":1002.506,"text":"變成要回頭去撈他的專長那又是另外一個問題民間的專長回過頭來他就會變成說他要符合他的民間專長那個變成是專長編碼的重新編定所以其實"},{"start":1015.733,"end":1034.2,"text":"教召的動員這件事情涉及到是滿戶長包括要掌握他的民間的專長要掌握他在部隊的一個專長然後要讓他互訓那麼剛剛提到那個部隊如果已經是準備要裁撤的我們剛剛也提到或者他單位的裝備已經換新了"},{"start":1035.26,"end":1046.986,"text":"換新了那第一個當然就是我們如果已經有預期是這樣子的話我們會盡量來納入他的第二專長那然後讓他退伍之後還是有第二專長我最後提就是說"},{"start":1048.561,"end":1069.298,"text":"全動數跟我們後備這裡會辛苦一點我們的賓資資料如果那四個月的其實那個賓資資料全部都專長都不符合他真正的專長可能要花點時間去撈一下他在民間的或者他的我們建立所謂第二專長這時候他回訊的時候還要不要堅持原專長原單位就未必了因為那就可惜了"},{"start":1069.818,"end":1085.168,"text":"第二個我現在以前自走砲要幾個人要好多人嘛或者一個砲兵部隊要滿編八個我現在A7三個就好四個就好了那我多餘的榮譽的人力它是變無人機單位它就要變成要有新的第二專長"},{"start":1086.629,"end":1112.643,"text":"這個部分我倒不用堅持你一定要原專長99% 100%回原單位那落伍了啦以前一個單位我一個8吋流要8個10個那我未來三個人就能操作了那我多出來的人我不能閒置在那邊等那個鞭石動員啊我可能讓他有新的專長去補充其他兵力不足的地方這是一個很精細要細緻化處理的部分也是我對群眾署跟後備單位的期許啦"},{"start":1113.283,"end":1127.976,"text":"然後另外最重要一件事情是我一直在講我們人事單位那個最小域值也就是一個部隊能動起來到底是65% 70% 85%每個單位不一樣那個數據要出來我才能把這個榮譽的人力挪到那個地方去做使用"},{"start":1128.396,"end":1143.688,"text":"我將來要增加加擠才知道哪邊缺人我給他薪水多一點 多一點人過去才有個科學依據 我還在等那個數據啦那我今天沒有問到包含我們的抗彈部啦 這些有一些弊端重生我找時間再跟國防部就教你們啦好 謝謝部長的時間 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:10:27.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:10:30.041000+08:00","text":"麻煩主席邀請國防部部長。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:10:30.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:10:30.201000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:10:37.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:10:37.721000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:10:37.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:10:37.961000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:10:38.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:08.439000+08:00","text":"有幾個問題就教於您，第一個，兩架MQ-9B已經回到臺灣進行組裝，以目前像伊朗的戰事來看，雖然它的被耗損率高，但它解決了很多以前空軍要冒著危險前進到戰場核心區域進行相關情監偵工作的問題，我看這次美軍司令部提到，若這次要選伊朗戰爭的MVP，他選的就是MQ-9。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:09.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:25.584000+08:00","text":"我現在要請教一個實質的問題，有關MQ-9B高高空無人機，本席之前在3月份質詢的時候就已經提到，第一個，他的待遇，依目前的規劃，操作它的人有沒有飛行加給？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:25.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:30.543000+08:00","text":"我請空軍說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:30.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:31.943000+08:00","text":"依目前空軍的規劃，他有沒有飛行加給？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:32.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:46.672000+08:00","text":"報告委員，分兩個部分向您報告，第一個，為了不要造成他們權益上損失且最快速的方式，目前三軍一致的方法是用戰鬥勤務加給，我們在4月份已經報國防部作審查。","quality":0.627},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:47.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:11:47.813000+08:00","text":"所以沒有飛行加給？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:11:48.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:07.997000+08:00","text":"目前是戰鬥勤務加給，跟您報告，我們也參酌了亞洲及美洲地區幾個主流國家的無人機操作領取加給的狀況，其實很多國家雖然稱為飛行加給，但是實質上是遠遠低於實際的飛行加給。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:08.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:32.415000+08:00","text":"我還是要提出這樣的建議，像美軍他們會rotate，他們會讓一些飛行員去飛高高空的無人機，因為有些飛行的概念還是屬於飛行員的概念，現在飛行加給分兩級，我可以接受增加一級，畢竟危險性不一樣，這是一個有關待遇、尊嚴與專業的問題。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:32.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:34.036000+08:00","text":"我聽說現在禁止他們穿飛行衣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:34.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:38.357000+08:00","text":"沒有，現在正在研議他們要穿……可能、可能，這還沒有確定，他們可能是……","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:38.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:40.478000+08:00","text":"目前作戰區要求穿的是一般軍服。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:41.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:12:43.618000+08:00","text":"他們還沒有開始成編。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:12:43.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:03.469000+08:00","text":"第一個，它的名稱叫飛行加給，現在飛行加給本來就針對不同的機型有分級制，就像某些國家的飛行加給有適度的分級，但它的待遇跟真正飛F-35、飛電偵機會不一樣。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:03.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:24.990000+08:00","text":"我們現在慢速機和戰鬥機飛行加給在金額上有一些差異，那個不同可以接受，因為危險係數不一樣，但它叫飛行加給，是對於飛行員的專業尊重與尊嚴，所以既然你們要付他加給，為什麼不能符合他操作飛行器的部分？","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:25.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:29.272000+08:00","text":"我真的建議參謀長思考一下，你可以給他叫飛行加給，但分甲、乙、丙嘛。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:30.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:40.779000+08:00","text":"報告委員，領飛行加給還涉及法的問題，因為飛行加給要符合空勤體位，他每年要去做空勤體檢，但是他實際上沒有從事飛行的任務及工作。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:41.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:53.847000+08:00","text":"您剛剛提到的我們也去查過，國外確實是領飛行加給，他要符合空勤體位，也有每個月必須去同乘的情形，所以這會造成資源上很大的浪費，因為……","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:53.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:54.727000+08:00","text":"我建議你去思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:54.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:13:56.087000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:13:56.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:14:07.132000+08:00","text":"法規該改就改，因為他必須有飛行的概念，我們現在戰鬥機出去，滯空一段時間就要回來，但是MQ-9上去一天不用回來，是地面上的飛行員換三班……","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:14:07.132000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:14:08.732000+08:00","text":"是，我們了解他們的辛苦。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:14:08.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:14:21.719000+08:00","text":"對他們的體力及專業也有要求，這是軍中同仁的心聲，既然有這項加給，叫「飛行」兩個字，對有翅膀的飛行員來講是有意義的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:14:23.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:14:27.022000+08:00","text":"另外飛行衣的部分，希望能夠保留讓他們可以穿飛行衣。是。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:14:27.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:14:51.367000+08:00","text":"這是未來、必要的趨勢，是一個先進的作戰方式，無人機從手持的，從班、排用的，一直到高高空的，其他軍種要求的操作員，陸軍可能叫飛手，操作高高空的是飛行員，但是飛行員的名稱你把他拿掉了，這個其實是我認為在心理上會有些打擊。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:14:51.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:15:09.341000+08:00","text":"再跟委員補充一個，就是我們查了，在韓國，他們的無人機飛行員也領飛行加給，但是他只能領飛行加給的六分之一，如果這個比例相較於我們現在的這個戰鬥勤務加給的話，空加的六分之一比戰鬥勤務加給還低，所以我們要維護他們的權益。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:15:09.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:15:30.919000+08:00","text":"我剛才講，金額上，因為危險係數不同，本席尊重你們專業的判斷，但對一個飛行員而言，操作高高空無人機，甚至有些是飛行員退下來移到那邊去的，飛行加給這個名詞如果能夠保留，給予適度的尊重，對國家沒有損失，對國家哪有損失呢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:15:31.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:15:41.022000+08:00","text":"還有穿著飛行衣，他操作的是飛行器，但畢竟他人沒有在天上，這個是有一些不同，這個不同產生待遇的不同，本席尊重你們的判斷。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:15:41.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:15:45.703000+08:00","text":"我現在只是建議，在這個部分，不要讓他覺得他已經不是飛行員了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:15:46.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:04.355000+08:00","text":"我真的建議，你們在研議的時候去思考，這麼做對飛行員有所尊重，國家也沒有損失，它叫飛行加給，跟戰鬥加給的金額差不多，國家沒有損失，但他得到的是一份尊重，就是他畢竟還是我們常講的有翅膀的人，不要把那個翅膀拔掉，好不好？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:04.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:06.378000+08:00","text":"這是一個建議。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:06.378000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:07.378000+08:00","text":"是，我們再研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:06.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:07.019000+08:00","text":"另外，我要請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:08.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:34.146000+08:00","text":"在這一次美國的環太平洋軍演，有31個國家參與，它有滿多新的部分，像首次讓韓國的海軍將領擔任指揮官來進行，還有這一次的環太平洋軍演裡面有操作實彈的擊沉演練、無人系統前沿科技（最先進科技）的操演對接、傳統核心海戰。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:34.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:16:56.693000+08:00","text":"它有三個目標，就是反制印太區域的封鎖與灰色地帶的威脅，另外，去壓制潛在的對手，驗證跨國一體化指揮鏈，就是這個，還沒有到單一作戰區，但是有跨國一體化的指揮鏈，以及嚇阻威權擴張。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:16:57.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:00.255000+08:00","text":"我是從這一次環太平洋軍演的文件看到這些東西。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:00.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:18.374000+08:00","text":"第一個，我請教，我們這次也沒有被邀請，美國參眾兩院也多次通過希望邀請臺灣參加，我請教部長，臺灣有沒有以任何我們不知道的形式參與其中，還是你不能講？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:18.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:20.095000+08:00","text":"本部並沒有參演。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:20.095000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:21.095000+08:00","text":"沒有參演嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:20.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:36.530000+08:00","text":"我要請教，以它這一次裡面提到的灰色地帶的威脅、潛在的對手、威權的擴張、環太軍演的目標，你覺得它這個潛在對手、威權擴張在印太地區指的是誰？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:37.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:49.889000+08:00","text":"我想第一島鏈所要防衛的、集體嚇阻的，甚至第二島鏈形成集體嚇阻的，這個對象當然都很清楚，就是中國。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:49.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:17:52.430000+08:00","text":"就是中國，我覺得這個就是很明顯的目標嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:17:53.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:18:12.300000+08:00","text":"這個所謂的潛在對手、威權擴張、嚇阻對象就是中國，而中國在第一島鏈威脅的重中之重就是臺灣，臺灣在環太平洋軍演沒有參演，可他們演習的內容都跟臺灣安全有關，我聽起來很荒謬，很不切實際！","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:18:12.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:19:21.496000+08:00","text":"所以我接下來要請教的是，環太軍演是從6月26日開始到7月22日的樣子，這是環太，而臺灣的立即備戰操演是6月22日到6月26日，我們的漢光實兵演習是在8月初，我請教部長，其實環太之後還有很多，在印太地區，澳洲和美國、美國和日本、美國和日本和菲律賓、美國和韓國，會有一連串的操演，都在6月底到8月初，當然這個時候也是印太地區氣候比較適合操演的、適合軍事行動的，我們的操演計畫，從現在正在進行中的立即備戰操演，以及接下來的漢光，跟盟友操演的科目之間是有關聯，還是沒有關聯？","quality":0.523},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:19:21.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:19:33.080000+08:00","text":"我只能夠說，我們的立即備戰操演和聯合防禦操演的演練目的當然是在不同的階段……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:19:34.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:19:49.406000+08:00","text":"我剛才的問題就是，我現在看到題目都跟臺海周邊局勢有關，然後臺灣好像沒有被邀請參加，可是同一時間我們也在操演，他們也在操演，那我們的科目跟盟友的科目之間有沒有關聯性？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:19:52.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:19:56.338000+08:00","text":"委員問的是環太平洋的軍演……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:19:56.338000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:19:57.338000+08:00","text":"還有後續一連串的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:19:56.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:02.183000+08:00","text":"我覺得現在更值得關注的應該是現在在進行的「堅毅之龍」和「勇敢之盾」……對。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:05.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:07.787000+08:00","text":"這兩個才更值得我們關注。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:08.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:12.871000+08:00","text":"對，我現在就是提它裡面的科目跟我們的科目有關聯性嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:12.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:18.695000+08:00","text":"因為「堅毅之龍」是聚焦在九州和南西諸島……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:18.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:18.875000+08:00","text":"對，西南諸島。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:20.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:23.379000+08:00","text":"我們有時候叫南西諸島，有時候叫西南諸島……對。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:23.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:20:49.845000+08:00","text":"但是不管怎麼叫，這個部分當然涉及到有關島嶼的聯合作戰，特別是用遠征軍這種概念，以美國來講，是前沿部署遠征軍的概念，結合日本的自衛隊，來進行相關的操演，我想這個目標所指對象是非常清楚的。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:20:50.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:05.457000+08:00","text":"另外，勇敢之盾的規模更大，有美軍的航母和相關的艦，還有先進的飛機，參與的國家，就我們了解，也多了澳洲，還有其他一些觀察國家……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:05.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:07.438000+08:00","text":"就第一島鏈、第二島鏈的聯合演習。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:08.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:19.145000+08:00","text":"它更大，它會比這個還要跨大一點，包括了關島，甚至夏威夷，當然還有從日本的宮城，一直往下到鹿兒島，我想這整個演練的目的……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:23.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:34.464000+08:00","text":"部長，所以你用這個來回答我的提問，就是臺灣不管哪一個操演，跟這些盟友操演科目的關聯性，你用這個來回答嘛！","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:36.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:37.902000+08:00","text":"我只能回答到這裡。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:37.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:39.923000+08:00","text":"對，我知道，所以你用這個回答是好的回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:41.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:21:49.526000+08:00","text":"確實我們是當事人，我們是局內人，我們不是局外人，不可能別人在那邊操演，我們在這邊「喊燒」，所以你剛剛提到那兩個。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:21:49.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:01.345000+08:00","text":"事實上，環太軍事專業的部分比較低，它比較像大拜拜，你後面講的堅毅之龍這幾個，其實跟臺灣更有直接的相關性。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:04.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:12.529000+08:00","text":"我本來想多問一個，印太司令部現在改回太平洋司令部，這幾個軍演的J5有沒有串在一起？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:14.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:14.850000+08:00","text":"我們的軍演……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:14.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:19.092000+08:00","text":"太平洋司令部的改名，他們已經說明了，他們的任務沒有改變……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:19.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:22.794000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，不是，我說我們的軍演，他們的J5有沒有派人來？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:22.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:29.337000+08:00","text":"上一次是巴傑隆有來，那個名牌是你們秀出來的，又不是我秀的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:31.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:32.978000+08:00","text":"相關的部分，我們不……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:34.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:48.537000+08:00","text":"就是J5來臺灣，J5也會去到日本西南諸島，J5也會在後面這個軍演，也就是太平洋司令部的J5有沒有在這不同的軍演裡面去串？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:51.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:52.605000+08:00","text":"情次室，你可以講多少你講多少，我不勉強。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:52.605000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:22:54.462000+08:00","text":"報告委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:22:54.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:08.637000+08:00","text":"也要讓國人知道，臺灣在這個安全網絡體系裡面並不孤單，臺灣在這個安全體系裡面，世界民主盟友很重視，我們家的安全我們應該最重視，看到朋友還挺關心的，好事！","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:09.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:16.465000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是在不破壞默契、不涉及機敏的情形下，讓國人清楚知道，其實是重要的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:17.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:30.527000+08:00","text":"所以太平洋司令部的J5負責政策以及聯合行動的部分，我們的軍演，他上次有來，剛才部長用那幾個軍演展現我們跟這些部分的關聯性，有沒有串在一起？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:32.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:48.118000+08:00","text":"我只能跟委員報告，我們的立即備戰操演、聯合防禦操演和漢光實兵演習都是一連串的演訓，所搭配的當然都是結合我們的聯合作戰計畫，來驗證我們的聯合作戰能力，只是不同的階段，漢光是全程……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:48.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:51.221000+08:00","text":"不是，我想聽情次室回答，因為你回答得太標準……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:51.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:52.742000+08:00","text":"我就講到這裡，其他……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:52.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:55.785000+08:00","text":"標準到跟沒有回答一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:55.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:57.167000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，其他部分，我們沒有辦法……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:23:58.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:23:58.687000+08:00","text":"不方便回答。是、是。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:00.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:03.529000+08:00","text":"情次室，那你上來本來要講什麼？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:04.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:06.711000+08:00","text":"報告委員，謝謝您剛剛的補充，很多東西您剛剛已經都點到了。","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:07.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:10.572000+08:00","text":"那我問你簡單一點，我們孤不孤單？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:10.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:11.893000+08:00","text":"臺灣在印太的局勢裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝次長日升","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:12.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:15.882000+08:00","text":"絕對不孤單。好啦！謝謝。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:15.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:16.962000+08:00","text":"我不為難你們。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:17.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:20.185000+08:00","text":"我其實還有兩個題目，但因為時間關係，我提醒一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:21.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:24:33.435000+08:00","text":"今天我們的題目在教召這個事情上，你們有93%都能夠原專長回原單位，我比較focus那7%，那7%不能的原因在哪裡？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:24:34.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:25:07.128000+08:00","text":"另外，現在志願役的女性官士兵參加教召是採志願制，我們將來要變強制，這個當然要修法，而且我看到是不分朝野，很多女性委員認為，男女應該平等，所以這個不是國防部單獨想出來的，是立法院，我在這邊看了那麼多年，一直在要求的，所以這要修法，而且不是所有女性都要來，是志願役的女性官士兵從原來自願參加教召，到現在納入教召的人力規劃，所以你們修法案要提出來嘛！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:25:08.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:25:21.397000+08:00","text":"這裡面就牽涉到很多後勤補給的問題，野戰的戰場，總是男女性有差別，這裡面是一個大的工程，所以第一個，7%沒辦法原人力回到原專長的原因在哪裡？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:25:21.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:25:31.644000+08:00","text":"第二個，未來女性強制教召之後，在後勤、在相關作業上，如何把單位的負擔變成不是負擔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:25:31.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:25:34.848000+08:00","text":"這裡面不只是性平的東西，還有很多裝備要跟上。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:25:35.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:25:56.725000+08:00","text":"第三個，我要問的問題是，我們現在很多原兵、原專長回原單位，可是原單位的東西已經不見了，比方說，我回到原單位，M60戰車不見了，現在是M1A2，M1A2在換裝訓練的時候訓練能量都已經吃緊了，我怎麼再去訓練這個短期14天的？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:25:57.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:02.247000+08:00","text":"或者將來自走砲都變A7的，我回原單位回訓，原專長已經不見了，也就是那個東西已經不見了。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:02.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:02.627000+08:00","text":"這三個問題國防部怎麼處理？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:06.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:30.991000+08:00","text":"第一個就是剛剛提到沒有辦法百分之百的那個部分，我想必須坦白講，這個跟過去我們實施多年4個月的軍事訓練役有關，志願役的部分退下來，要全部達到原兵歸原位，要能夠滿足百分之百，確實還沒有辦法完全達到。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:31.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:42.956000+08:00","text":"義務役的部分因為過去是4個月軍事訓練役，沒有士官跟尉官的部分，當然也造成我們在專長……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:42.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:44.537000+08:00","text":"他的專長也沒有細分啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:44.537000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:45.597000+08:00","text":"全部都是步槍兵。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:45.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:26:56.741000+08:00","text":"對，所以在原兵歸原位，要回復立即戰力的這個情況之下確實有……所以我們會做一些補充，就是有相類似的……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:26:56.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:03.164000+08:00","text":"全動署那邊可能要費心一點，因為以前4個月的，連醫學院出來都是步槍兵，可惜了嘛！","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:04.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:06.705000+08:00","text":"變成要回頭去撈他的專長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:06.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:07.966000+08:00","text":"那又是另外一個問題，回過頭來就會變成要符合他的民間專長，回到他們……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:07.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:08.226000+08:00","text":"那個變成是專長編碼的重新編列。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:08.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:33.978000+08:00","text":"是，所以其實動員或者是教召這件事情涉及到的部分蠻複雜的，包括要掌握他在民間的專長、要掌握他在部隊的專長，然後要讓他複訓。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:34.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:38.499000+08:00","text":"我們剛剛也提到那個部隊如果已經是準備要裁撤的……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:39.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:40.180000+08:00","text":"或是單位的裝備已經換新了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:42.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:51.525000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們如果已經有預期會是這樣子的話，我們會儘量來納入他的第二專長，讓他退伍之後還是有第二專長。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:51.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:28:15.278000+08:00","text":"部長，你講出來我的建議了，我最後就是提到，全動署跟後備這裡會辛苦一點，如果是4個月的，其實那個兵資資料的專長全部都不符合他真正的專長，可能要花點時間去撈一下他在民間的專長，或者建立所謂第二專長，這時候他回訓的時候就未必要堅持原專長、原單位了，因為那就可惜了。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:28:15.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:28:37.552000+08:00","text":"第二個，以前自走砲要好多人，或者一個砲兵部隊滿編要8個，現在A7只要3個、4個就好了，那多餘的、冗餘的人力是變無人機單位，他就變成要有新的第二專長，這個部分我倒不堅持你一定要原專長99%、100%回原單位，那落伍了啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:28:38.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:28:58.383000+08:00","text":"以前一個8吋榴的單位要8個、10個，未來3個人就能操作了，那多出來的人不能閒置在那邊等編實動員，我要讓他有新的專長去補充其他兵力不足的地方，這是一個很精細，要細緻化處理的部分，也是我對全動署跟後備單位的期許。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:28:59.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:08.171000+08:00","text":"另外最重要的一件事情是我一直在講我們人事單位的最小閾值，也就是一個部隊能動起來到底是65%、70%、85%？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:08.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:21.642000+08:00","text":"每個單位不一樣，那個數據要出來，我才能把冗餘的人力挪到那個地方去做使用，我將來要增加加給，才知道哪邊缺人，我給他薪水多一點，讓多一點人過去，如此才有個科學依據，我還在等那個數據啦！","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:22.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:29.688000+08:00","text":"我今天沒有問到的，包含我們的抗彈布有一些弊端叢生，我找時間再就教國防部，謝謝部長的時間。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:29.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:29.688000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:30.188000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:33.902286+08:00","text":"接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":353,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時10分）麻煩主席邀請國防部部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。有幾個問題就教於您，第一個，兩架MQ-9B已經回到臺灣進行組裝，以目前像伊朗的戰事來看，雖然它的被耗損率高，但它解決了很多以前空軍要冒著危險前進到戰場核心區域進行相關情監偵工作的問題，我看這次美軍司令部提到，若這次要選伊朗戰爭的MVP，他選的就是MQ-9。我現在要請教一個實質的問題，有關MQ-9B高高空無人機，本席之前在3月份質詢的時候就已經提到，第一個，他的待遇，依目前的規劃，操作它的人有沒有飛行加給？"],["顧部長立雄：我請空軍說明。"],["王委員定宇：依目前空軍的規劃，他有沒有飛行加給？"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，分兩個部分向您報告，第一個，為了不要造成他們權益上損失且最快速的方式，目前三軍一致的方法是用戰鬥勤務加給，我們在4月份已經報國防部作審查。"],["王委員定宇：所以沒有飛行加給？"],["李參謀長慶然：目前是戰鬥勤務加給，跟您報告，我們也參酌了亞洲及美洲地區幾個主流國家的無人機操作領取加給的狀況，其實很多國家雖然稱為飛行加給，但是實質上是遠遠低於實際的飛行加給。"],["王委員定宇：我還是要提出這樣的建議，像美軍他們會rotate，他們會讓一些飛行員去飛高高空的無人機，因為有些飛行的概念還是屬於飛行員的概念，現在飛行加給分兩級，我可以接受增加一級，畢竟危險性不一樣，這是一個有關待遇、尊嚴與專業的問題。我聽說現在禁止他們穿飛行衣？"],["李參謀長慶然：沒有，現在正在研議他們要穿……可能、可能，這還沒有確定，他們可能是……"],["王委員定宇：目前作戰區要求穿的是一般軍服。"],["李參謀長慶然：他們還沒有開始成編。"],["王委員定宇：第一個，它的名稱叫飛行加給，現在飛行加給本來就針對不同的機型有分級制，就像某些國家的飛行加給有適度的分級，但它的待遇跟真正飛F-35、飛電偵機會不一樣。我們現在慢速機和戰鬥機飛行加給在金額上有一些差異，那個不同可以接受，因為危險係數不一樣，但它叫飛行加給，是對於飛行員的專業尊重與尊嚴，所以既然你們要付他加給，為什麼不能符合他操作飛行器的部分？我真的建議參謀長思考一下，你可以給他叫飛行加給，但分甲、乙、丙嘛。"],["李參謀長慶然：報告委員，領飛行加給還涉及法的問題，因為飛行加給要符合空勤體位，他每年要去做空勤體檢，但是他實際上沒有從事飛行的任務及工作。您剛剛提到的我們也去查過，國外確實是領飛行加給，他要符合空勤體位，也有每個月必須去同乘的情形，所以這會造成資源上很大的浪費，因為……"],["王委員定宇：我建議你去思考。"],["李參謀長慶然：是、是、是。"],["王委員定宇：法規該改就改，因為他必須有飛行的概念，我們現在戰鬥機出去，滯空一段時間就要回來，但是MQ-9上去一天不用回來，是地面上的飛行員換三班……"],["李參謀長慶然：是，我們了解他們的辛苦。"],["王委員定宇：對他們的體力及專業也有要求，這是軍中同仁的心聲，既然有這項加給，叫「飛行」兩個字，對有翅膀的飛行員來講是有意義的。另外飛行衣的部分，希望能夠保留讓他們可以穿飛行衣。"],["李參謀長慶然：是。"],["王委員定宇：這是未來、必要的趨勢，是一個先進的作戰方式，無人機從手持的，從班、排用的，一直到高高空的，其他軍種要求的操作員，陸軍可能叫飛手，操作高高空的是飛行員，但是飛行員的名稱你把他拿掉了，這個其實是我認為在心理上會有些打擊。"],["李參謀長慶然：再跟委員補充一個，就是我們查了，在韓國，他們的無人機飛行員也領飛行加給，但是他只能領飛行加給的六分之一，如果這個比例相較於我們現在的這個戰鬥勤務加給的話，空加的六分之一比戰鬥勤務加給還低，所以我們要維護他們的權益。"],["王委員定宇：我剛才講，金額上，因為危險係數不同，本席尊重你們專業的判斷，但對一個飛行員而言，操作高高空無人機，甚至有些是飛行員退下來移到那邊去的，飛行加給這個名詞如果能夠保留，給予適度的尊重，對國家沒有損失，對國家哪有損失呢？還有穿著飛行衣，他操作的是飛行器，但畢竟他人沒有在天上，這個是有一些不同，這個不同產生待遇的不同，本席尊重你們的判斷。我現在只是建議，在這個部分，不要讓他覺得他已經不是飛行員了。我真的建議，你們在研議的時候去思考，這麼做對飛行員有所尊重，國家也沒有損失，它叫飛行加給，跟戰鬥加給的金額差不多，國家沒有損失，但他得到的是一份尊重，就是他畢竟還是我們常講的有翅膀的人，不要把那個翅膀拔掉，好不好？這是一個建議。"],["李參謀長慶然：是，我們再研議。"],["王委員定宇：另外，我要請教部長。在這一次美國的環太平洋軍演，有31個國家參與，它有滿多新的部分，像首次讓韓國的海軍將領擔任指揮官來進行，還有這一次的環太平洋軍演裡面有操作實彈的擊沉演練、無人系統前沿科技（最先進科技）的操演對接、傳統核心海戰。它有三個目標，就是反制印太區域的封鎖與灰色地帶的威脅，另外，去壓制潛在的對手，驗證跨國一體化指揮鏈，就是這個，還沒有到單一作戰區，但是有跨國一體化的指揮鏈，以及嚇阻威權擴張。我是從這一次環太平洋軍演的文件看到這些東西。","第一個，我請教，我們這次也沒有被邀請，美國參眾兩院也多次通過希望邀請臺灣參加，我請教部長，臺灣有沒有以任何我們不知道的形式參與其中，還是你不能講？"],["顧部長立雄：本部並沒有參演。"],["王委員定宇：沒有參演嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：我要請教，以它這一次裡面提到的灰色地帶的威脅、潛在的對手、威權的擴張、環太軍演的目標，你覺得它這個潛在對手、威權擴張在印太地區指的是誰？"],["顧部長立雄：我想第一島鏈所要防衛的、集體嚇阻的，甚至第二島鏈形成集體嚇阻的，這個對象當然都很清楚，就是中國。"],["王委員定宇：就是中國，我覺得這個就是很明顯的目標嘛！這個所謂的潛在對手、威權擴張、嚇阻對象就是中國，而中國在第一島鏈威脅的重中之重就是臺灣，臺灣在環太平洋軍演沒有參演，可他們演習的內容都跟臺灣安全有關，我聽起來很荒謬，很不切實際！","所以我接下來要請教的是，環太軍演是從6月26日開始到7月22日的樣子，這是環太，而臺灣的立即備戰操演是6月22日到6月26日，我們的漢光實兵演習是在8月初，我請教部長，其實環太之後還有很多，在印太地區，澳洲和美國、美國和日本、美國和日本和菲律賓、美國和韓國，會有一連串的操演，都在6月底到8月初，當然這個時候也是印太地區氣候比較適合操演的、適合軍事行動的，我們的操演計畫，從現在正在進行中的立即備戰操演，以及接下來的漢光，跟盟友操演的科目之間是有關聯，還是沒有關聯？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能夠說，我們的立即備戰操演和聯合防禦操演的演練目的當然是在不同的階段……"],["王委員定宇：我剛才的問題就是，我現在看到題目都跟臺海周邊局勢有關，然後臺灣好像沒有被邀請參加，可是同一時間我們也在操演，他們也在操演，那我們的科目跟盟友的科目之間有沒有關聯性？"],["顧部長立雄：委員問的是環太平洋的軍演……"],["王委員定宇：還有後續一連串的……"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得現在更值得關注的應該是現在在進行的「堅毅之龍」和「勇敢之盾」……"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["顧部長立雄：這兩個才更值得我們關注。"],["王委員定宇：對，我現在就是提它裡面的科目跟我們的科目有關聯性嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：因為「堅毅之龍」是聚焦在九州和南西諸島……"],["王委員定宇：對，西南諸島。"],["顧部長立雄：我們有時候叫南西諸島，有時候叫西南諸島……"],["王委員定宇：對。"],["顧部長立雄：但是不管怎麼叫，這個部分當然涉及到有關島嶼的聯合作戰，特別是用遠征軍這種概念，以美國來講，是前沿部署遠征軍的概念，結合日本的自衛隊，來進行相關的操演，我想這個目標所指對象是非常清楚的。","另外，勇敢之盾的規模更大，有美軍的航母和相關的艦，還有先進的飛機，參與的國家，就我們了解，也多了澳洲，還有其他一些觀察國家……"],["王委員定宇：就第一島鏈、第二島鏈的聯合演習。"],["顧部長立雄：它更大，它會比這個還要跨大一點，包括了關島，甚至夏威夷，當然還有從日本的宮城，一直往下到鹿兒島，我想這整個演練的目的……"],["王委員定宇：部長，所以你用這個來回答我的提問，就是臺灣不管哪一個操演，跟這些盟友操演科目的關聯性，你用這個來回答嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：我只能回答到這裡。"],["王委員定宇：對，我知道，所以你用這個回答是好的回答。確實我們是當事人，我們是局內人，我們不是局外人，不可能別人在那邊操演，我們在這邊「喊燒」，所以你剛剛提到那兩個。事實上，環太軍事專業的部分比較低，它比較像大拜拜，你後面講的堅毅之龍這幾個，其實跟臺灣更有直接的相關性。","我本來想多問一個，印太司令部現在改回太平洋司令部，這幾個軍演的J5有沒有串在一起？我們的軍演……"],["顧部長立雄：太平洋司令部的改名，他們已經說明了，他們的任務沒有改變……"],["王委員定宇：沒有、沒有，不是，我說我們的軍演，他們的J5有沒有派人來？上一次是巴傑隆有來，那個名牌是你們秀出來的，又不是我秀的。"],["顧部長立雄：相關的部分，我們不……"],["王委員定宇：就是J5來臺灣，J5也會去到日本西南諸島，J5也會在後面這個軍演，也就是太平洋司令部的J5有沒有在這不同的軍演裡面去串？情次室，你可以講多少你講多少，我不勉強。"],["謝次長日升：報告委員……"],["王委員定宇：也要讓國人知道，臺灣在這個安全網絡體系裡面並不孤單，臺灣在這個安全體系裡面，世界民主盟友很重視，我們家的安全我們應該最重視，看到朋友還挺關心的，好事！所以我的意思是在不破壞默契、不涉及機敏的情形下，讓國人清楚知道，其實是重要的。所以太平洋司令部的J5負責政策以及聯合行動的部分，我們的軍演，他上次有來，剛才部長用那幾個軍演展現我們跟這些部分的關聯性，有沒有串在一起？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能跟委員報告，我們的立即備戰操演、聯合防禦操演和漢光實兵演習都是一連串的演訓，所搭配的當然都是結合我們的聯合作戰計畫，來驗證我們的聯合作戰能力，只是不同的階段，漢光是全程……"],["王委員定宇：不是，我想聽情次室回答，因為你回答得太標準……"],["顧部長立雄：我就講到這裡，其他……"],["王委員定宇：標準到跟沒有回答一樣。"],["顧部長立雄：是、是、是，其他部分，我們沒有辦法……"],["王委員定宇：不方便回答。"],["顧部長立雄：是、是。"],["王委員定宇：情次室，那你上來本來要講什麼？"],["謝次長日升：報告委員，謝謝您剛剛的補充，很多東西您剛剛已經都點到了。"],["王委員定宇：那我問你簡單一點，我們孤不孤單？臺灣在印太的局勢裡面。"],["謝次長日升：絕對不孤單。"],["王委員定宇：好啦！"],["謝次長日升：謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：我不為難你們。","我其實還有兩個題目，但因為時間關係，我提醒一下。今天我們的題目在教召這個事情上，你們有93%都能夠原專長回原單位，我比較focus那7%，那7%不能的原因在哪裡？另外，現在志願役的女性官士兵參加教召是採志願制，我們將來要變強制，這個當然要修法，而且我看到是不分朝野，很多女性委員認為，男女應該平等，所以這個不是國防部單獨想出來的，是立法院，我在這邊看了那麼多年，一直在要求的，所以這要修法，而且不是所有女性都要來，是志願役的女性官士兵從原來自願參加教召，到現在納入教召的人力規劃，所以你們修法案要提出來嘛！這裡面就牽涉到很多後勤補給的問題，野戰的戰場，總是男女性有差別，這裡面是一個大的工程，所以第一個，7%沒辦法原人力回到原專長的原因在哪裡？第二個，未來女性強制教召之後，在後勤、在相關作業上，如何把單位的負擔變成不是負擔？這裡面不只是性平的東西，還有很多裝備要跟上。第三個，我要問的問題是，我們現在很多原兵、原專長回原單位，可是原單位的東西已經不見了，比方說，我回到原單位，M60戰車不見了，現在是M1A2，M1A2在換裝訓練的時候訓練能量都已經吃緊了，我怎麼再去訓練這個短期14天的？或者將來自走砲都變A7的，我回原單位回訓，原專長已經不見了，也就是那個東西已經不見了。這三個問題國防部怎麼處理？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個就是剛剛提到沒有辦法百分之百的那個部分，我想必須坦白講，這個跟過去我們實施多年4個月的軍事訓練役有關，志願役的部分退下來，要全部達到原兵歸原位，要能夠滿足百分之百，確實還沒有辦法完全達到。義務役的部分因為過去是4個月軍事訓練役，沒有士官跟尉官的部分，當然也造成我們在專長……"],["王委員定宇：他的專長也沒有細分啦！全部都是步槍兵。"],["顧部長立雄：對，所以在原兵歸原位，要回復立即戰力的這個情況之下確實有……所以我們會做一些補充，就是有相類似的……"],["王委員定宇：全動署那邊可能要費心一點，因為以前4個月的，連醫學院出來都是步槍兵，可惜了嘛！變成要回頭去撈他的專長。"],["顧部長立雄：那又是另外一個問題，回過頭來就會變成要符合他的民間專長，回到他們……"],["王委員定宇：那個變成是專長編碼的重新編列。"],["顧部長立雄：是，所以其實動員或者是教召這件事情涉及到的部分蠻複雜的，包括要掌握他在民間的專長、要掌握他在部隊的專長，然後要讓他複訓。我們剛剛也提到那個部隊如果已經是準備要裁撤的……"],["王委員定宇：或是單位的裝備已經換新了。"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，我們如果已經有預期會是這樣子的話，我們會儘量來納入他的第二專長，讓他退伍之後還是有第二專長。"],["王委員定宇：部長，你講出來我的建議了，我最後就是提到，全動署跟後備這裡會辛苦一點，如果是4個月的，其實那個兵資資料的專長全部都不符合他真正的專長，可能要花點時間去撈一下他在民間的專長，或者建立所謂第二專長，這時候他回訓的時候就未必要堅持原專長、原單位了，因為那就可惜了。","第二個，以前自走砲要好多人，或者一個砲兵部隊滿編要8個，現在A7只要3個、4個就好了，那多餘的、冗餘的人力是變無人機單位，他就變成要有新的第二專長，這個部分我倒不堅持你一定要原專長99%、100%回原單位，那落伍了啦！以前一個8吋榴的單位要8個、10個，未來3個人就能操作了，那多出來的人不能閒置在那邊等編實動員，我要讓他有新的專長去補充其他兵力不足的地方，這是一個很精細，要細緻化處理的部分，也是我對全動署跟後備單位的期許。","另外最重要的一件事情是我一直在講我們人事單位的最小閾值，也就是一個部隊能動起來到底是65%、70%、85%？每個單位不一樣，那個數據要出來，我才能把冗餘的人力挪到那個地方去做使用，我將來要增加加給，才知道哪邊缺人，我給他薪水多一點，讓多一點人過去，如此才有個科學依據，我還在等那個數據啦！","我今天沒有問到的，包含我們的抗彈布有一些弊端叢生，我找時間再就教國防部，謝謝部長的時間。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":174,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-23","speakers":["馬文君","王義川","羅美玲","陳永康","陳俊宇","王定宇","沈伯洋","王安祥","牛煦庭","王鴻薇","黃仁","林楚茵","黃建賓","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","鍾佳濱"],"page_start":127,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「教召制度公平性、後備軍人實戰化施訓成效與女性召訓配套措\n施」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155501_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}