{"error":false,"id":["170099"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170099,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170099","日期":"2026-06-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-24T10:27:25+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-24T10:36:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eeac6239dd17b44613bee6ec7f58a08f1e228f614125acb8cb9207885310a77d4cd5d9dcafc62b725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"10:27:25 - 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請施部長"},{"start":11.031,"end":32.74,"text":"部長早今天主要是針對公教人員的職場我覺得還可以做得更平等的育兒支持首先要肯定勞動部我們次長在這我想這一次的育兒環境的改善突破非常的大我想大家已經知道了就是育嬰假升級為育兒假另外一個就是6加3"},{"start":34,"end":53.753,"text":"鼓勵雙親一起育兒因為有很多國際的研究都看到爸爸一起加入其實對於女性回到職場這件事是有幫助的也對於能夠願意生養下一代這個經驗是非常正面的是有幫助的"},{"start":54.233,"end":81.843,"text":"那我也告訴大家一下從兩年前我就跟勞動部前部長時代當時就談到彈性育嬰假很重要可是勞動部的計畫做得不夠好那去年我也跟卓院長總質詢覺得以日請休很重要那非常的高興這次勞動部能夠提出跟我問政方向一致的修正草案但是今天呢我除了肯定勞動部之外"},{"start":82.463,"end":92.53,"text":"那因為剛剛那個部長都一直講到這次是對其性供法對其勞動部相關的改革嘛那你們的新聞稿也都是這樣寫可是呢"},{"start":93.649,"end":116.903,"text":"我們看一下這一次的部分這個是一致的部分這個部分做得很好但是我看到有幾個差異第一個就是流停的津貼數額計算基準不同剛剛省委員也有提到就是所謂的加發的20%我們是依照這個補助要點這部分公保法也有對不對"},{"start":117.383,"end":132.468,"text":"那但是呢因為公教人員實領縫級的部分是所謂的本縫加級以我自己也是公立大學的教授來看非常高的比例是放在加級那計算起來我們"},{"start":135.409,"end":162.397,"text":"會發現有很大的差異但是我也先肯定你們關於這個低於最低工資的部分就以最低工資算那但是高於最低工資的公教人員的計算方式那其實有很大的差異那我們辦公室用這個來算如果有一個人在公立學校的教師是二十五星級那他的薪額是兩萬九千多鳳級是五萬五千多那他實際"},{"start":164.157,"end":182.732,"text":"領到的這個育兒津貼是17,700只佔他的月薪的31.7%那今天如果是用公務員來算因為剛剛是公立學校的老師的那這個是低於最低工資的那如果高於最低工資的話你可以看到育兒津貼算起來是他實際月薪的32.4%"},{"start":186.074,"end":208.192,"text":"那一般勞工的話這裡要跟大家講一下這邊我注意這個育兒津貼這個數字是寫錯是27480算起來是實際月薪的48.8%所以一個接近零到一半我覺得勞動部也是可以改善這一塊因為他對越高薪的越不利雖然這次已經有突破了這次已經比過去好"},{"start":208.752,"end":226.478,"text":"所以對公務員來講如果不到實際月薪的三分之一那到底誰能夠請領其實也是要經濟環境比較寬裕的可能要雙薪家庭如果家裡只有一個人的薪水的話其實影響蠻大的所以我想這個部分"},{"start":228.141,"end":255.303,"text":"不知道就是我可以跟委員先說明一下嗎好第一個部分其實整體都還是要回到公教保險是一個準備金來支付的是所以你用什麼分子那個母數是什麼去投保就用那個母數去領計算基準所以你如果要把母數擴大就像我們的退府是用本奉乘以二意思就是每個人呢就通通要多繳保費"},{"start":256.698,"end":282.614,"text":"那多繳保費的一個結果呢因為我們公教是它幾副項目非常非常多所以這個真的是跟剛剛問題是一樣這個是不是公教同仁大家都全體都贊成說為了只是因為為了這一個去提高然後大家都要多繳保費這我沒有個人的這個特別的一個意見我只是說它實際技術上操作會碰到這個問題所以這需要更多的討論"},{"start":283.154,"end":302.716,"text":"您的意思是財源的問題就是他要調保費他可能要增加保費一定增加那有可能費率還會再重新計算有可能再提高費率所以對全體的公務同仁公教同仁都可能因為這樣是需要增加他的負擔雖然"},{"start":304.818,"end":326.831,"text":"公務人員其實也並沒有表達反對過我說這個議題我只是把這樣從我們部裡面做制度面的設計我們因為有責任要去把這個可能情境你們有責任要提出這個可能的方向因為這樣子對公務人員來講的話他的育兒留庭的機會其實是比勞工的待遇差我理解"},{"start":328.372,"end":355.41,"text":"那當然還有另外一個部分我們辦公室也發現就收養子女先行共同生活期間院版的救保法有照顧到這個問題算是很體貼就是如果你想要收養小孩共同生活期間是可以領育兒留職停薪津貼的那可是考試院版的公保法就沒有類似的計畫這部分是你們漏掉了嗎"},{"start":362.618,"end":374.744,"text":"就是因為考試院會比較傾向就是說在法律關係沒有確定以前可能採取比較保守的一個方式所以目前沒有加上去不過如果院版是這樣通過我想這可能就變成"},{"start":375.965,"end":400.536,"text":"你們可以考慮 因為它裡面都有提到法院裁決如果沒有認定的話 當事人就要返還所以其實國家並不會因此有損失可是如果我們鼓勵收養的角度來講的話既然院版的救保法 連這個部分都考慮到了我覺得也不要讓公教人員相對權益不比勞工吧"},{"start":402.008,"end":426.158,"text":"好那可以謝謝那個部長願意演繹喔那這部分我剛剛已經全序部這個部分有提到那所以今天就兩題啦我覺得打造育兒友善的職場國家是公教人員的老闆那國家當然應該要讓公教人員當表率嘛你沒有比勞工就是好就算了不能比現在勞動部主管的這個"},{"start":427.038,"end":446.647,"text":"勞工的育兒有限的環境差所以第一個我請考試院的全序部可不可以研究一下民主國家的公教人員育嬰留庭的津貼計算方式那希望評估不低於一般勞工的可行做法我的理想是應該要覺得要更好啦那但是我想我們先從不低於"},{"start":447.547,"end":460.277,"text":"目前勞動部改革的一般勞工的可行做法那另外就是嚴寧如何讓公教人員收養子女者也比照一般勞工有平等育兒的留庭津貼勤領的機會好不好就這兩樣可以嗎"},{"start":463.188,"end":485.638,"text":"了解就來看看說我們知道勞工就是以他的薪資去投保嘛那我們是用本分這部分剛剛有算出那個差距我們來看看這部分還有沒有什麼可行的方式來檢查就像我們把最低不可以低以最低工資銀先走一步然後這個我們再來看看有沒有以公立大學來講他那個加給幾乎佔薪資的一半我知道因為我們"},{"start":486.058,"end":506.23,"text":"不同公務人員那個加級跟薪資的比例大學是剛好超過1比1但是其他的部分都是本縫高於中高階公務人員我想期望你應該比我更了解狀況不一啦那因為直領到三分之一那真的非常多人如果家裡靠一分薪水的話是沒有辦法請的我理解我理解我來跟同仁他們好好再來談一下那謝謝部長請問多久內可以給我相關的報告呢"},{"start":511.973,"end":533.882,"text":"這個題目蠻懶的因為它涉及到可能甚至涉及到還有財務面的一個東西是不是給我一點時間啊好不好講一個時間吧三個月好不好三個月喔兩個月不行嗎一定要三個月不行啊好啦那三個月啦希望有正面的答案好不好我們來努力看看有沒有什麼可能性啦國家應該要做表率好謝謝好謝謝范雲委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:27.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:28.004000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請施部長。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:28.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:28.527000+08:00","text":"請施部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:28.527000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:36.031000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:36.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:36.351000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:36.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:27:43.474000+08:00","text":"今天主要是針對公教人員的職場，我覺得還可以做更平等的育兒支持。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:27:44.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:28:18.733000+08:00","text":"首先要肯定勞動部，我們次長在這，這一次育兒環境的改善突破非常大，我想大家已經知道了，就是育嬰假升級為育兒假，另外一個就是6加3，鼓勵雙親一起育兒，因為有很多國際的研究都看到爸爸一起加入，對於女性回到職場這件事是有幫助的，對於願意生養下一代的部分，這個經驗是非常正面的、是有幫助的。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:28:19.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:28:43.902000+08:00","text":"我也告訴大家，兩年前我就跟勞動部前部長時代，當時就談到彈性育嬰假很重要，可是勞動部的計畫做得不夠好，去年我也跟卓院長總質詢，覺得以日請休很重要，非常高興這次勞動部能夠提出跟我問政方向一致的修正草案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:28:44.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:10.976000+08:00","text":"但是今天我除了肯定勞動部之外，因為剛剛部長一直講到這次是對齊性工法、勞動部相關的改革，你們的新聞稿也都是這樣寫，我們來看一下這一次的部分，一致的部分做得很好，但是我看到有幾個差異，第一個就是留停津貼的數額計算基準不同。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:12.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:21.903000+08:00","text":"剛剛沈委員也有提到，所謂的加發20%是依照補助要點，這部分公保法也有，對不對？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:22.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:29:55.713000+08:00","text":"但是因為公教人員實領俸給的部分是所謂的本俸加加給，以我自己也是公立大學的教授來看，非常高的比例是放在加給，計算起來我們會發現有很大的差異，但是我也先肯定你們，本俸低於最低工資的部分就以最低工資算，但是高於最低工資的公教人員的計算方式，其實有很大的差異。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:29:55.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:30:16.023000+08:00","text":"我們辦公室用這個來算，公立學校教師是245薪級，他的薪額是兩萬九千多，俸給是五萬五千多，他實際領到的育兒津貼是1萬7,700，只占其月薪的31.7%。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:30:18.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:30:27.732000+08:00","text":"剛剛是公立學校的老師，是低於最低工資，如果用公務員來算，是高於最低工資，你可以看到育兒津貼算起來占他實際月薪的32.4%。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:30:31.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:30:45.065000+08:00","text":"至於一般勞工……這裡要跟大家講一下，我助理把育兒津貼的數字寫錯，應該是2萬7,480，算起來是實際月薪的48.8%，所以是接近領到一半。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:30:45.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:30:53.172000+08:00","text":"我覺得勞動部也可以改善這一塊，因為對越高薪的越不利，雖然這次已經有突破，也已經比過去好。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:30:54.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:31:00.354000+08:00","text":"對公務員來講，如果不到實際月薪的三分之一，那麼到底誰能夠請領？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:31:00.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:31:09.817000+08:00","text":"其實也是經濟環境比較寬裕的，可能要雙薪家庭，如果家裡只有一個人的薪水的話，其實影響蠻大的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:31:10.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:31:13.381000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分，不知道部長……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:31:14.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:31:17.024000+08:00","text":"我可以跟委員先說明一下嗎？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:31:18.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:00.129000+08:00","text":"第一個部分，其實整體都還是要回到公教保險是用準備金支付的，所以用什麼母數去投保，就用那個母數去做計算基準，如果要把母數擴大，就像退撫是用本俸乘以二，意思就是每個人通通要多繳保費，而多繳保費的結果，因為公教給付項目非常多，所以這個真的跟剛剛的問題一樣，是不是公教同仁全體都贊成只是為了這個而去提高，然後大家都要多繳保費？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:00.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:07.614000+08:00","text":"我個人沒有特別的意見，只是表達實際技術上操作會碰到這個問題，所以這需要更多的討論。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:08.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:10.837000+08:00","text":"了解，所以您的意思是財源的問題，並不是……","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:10.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:27.696000+08:00","text":"就是要調保費，保費一定增加，有可能費率還會再重新計算，有可能再提高費率，所以全體公教同仁都可能因為這樣而需要增加他們的負擔。雖然……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:29.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:33.220000+08:00","text":"公務人員其實並沒有表達反對過。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:33.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:41.625000+08:00","text":"對，針對這個議題，我只是從部裡面做制度面的設計，因為我們有責任把可能的情境提出來。","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:41.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:51.471000+08:00","text":"你們有責任提出可能的方向，因為這樣對公務人員來講，他們育兒留停的機會其實比勞工的待遇差。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:51.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:32:51.811000+08:00","text":"我理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:32:53.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:33:20.410000+08:00","text":"當然還有另外一個部分，我們辦公室也發現，就收養子女先行共同生活期間，院版的就保法有照顧到這個問題，算是很體貼，如果想要收養小孩，共同生活期間可以領育兒留職停薪津貼，可是考試院版的公保法就沒有類似的計畫，這部分是你們漏掉了嗎？","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:33:27.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:33:39.724000+08:00","text":"因為考試院會比較傾向在法律關係沒有確定以前，可能採取比較保守的方式，所以目前沒有加上去，不過，如果院版是這樣通過的話，我想這可能就變成……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:33:40.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:33:42.326000+08:00","text":"對，你們可以考慮……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:33:42.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:33:43.326000+08:00","text":"我們可能就得去面對這個事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:33:42.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:05.516000+08:00","text":"因為裡面都有提到，法院裁決如果沒有認定的話，當事人就要返還，所以其實國家並不會因此有損失，可是如果我們以鼓勵收養的角度來講，既然院版的就保法連這個部分都考慮到了，我覺得也不要讓公教人員相對權益不比勞工吧！","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:05.516000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:08.349000+08:00","text":"好，我帶回去研議。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:08.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:13.791000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長願意研議，銓敘部的部分我剛剛已經有提到。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:14.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:34.039000+08:00","text":"今天就兩題，打造育兒友善的職場，國家是公教人員的老闆，國家當然應該要讓公教人員當表率，沒有比勞工好就算了，不能比現在勞動部主管的勞工育兒友善環境差。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:34.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:42.423000+08:00","text":"因此第一個，我請考試院銓敘部，可不可以研究一下民主國家的公教人員育嬰留停津貼的計算方式？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:43.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:34:55.970000+08:00","text":"希望評估不低於一般勞工的可行做法，我的理想是應該要覺得更好，但是我想我們先從不低於目前勞動部改革一般勞工的可行做法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:34:56.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:05.277000+08:00","text":"另外，研擬如何讓公教人員收養子女者也比照一般勞工，有平等育兒留停津貼的請領機會，就這兩樣，可以嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:08.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:26.176000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們來了解，我們知道勞工是以其薪資去投保，而我們是用本俸，剛剛委員有算出差距，我們看看這部分還有沒有什麼可行的方式來減少，就像我們讓它不可以低於最低工資已經先走一步，然後這個我們再來看看有沒有什麼方式……","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:26.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:29.978000+08:00","text":"以公立大學來講，其加給幾乎占薪資的一半。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:30.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:37.582000+08:00","text":"我知道，因為不同公務人員的加給跟薪資比例，大學是剛好差不多一比一，但其他部分都是本俸高於加給。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:37.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:41.384000+08:00","text":"中高階公務人員的情況，我想你應該比我更了解。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:41.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:41.764000+08:00","text":"狀況不一。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:42.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:47.828000+08:00","text":"因為只領到三分之一，真的非常多人如果家裡靠一份薪水的話是沒有辦法請的。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:47.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:50.770000+08:00","text":"我理解，我跟同仁再好好談一下這個事情。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:50.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:50.850000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:50.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:35:51.210000+08:00","text":"請問多久內可以給我相關的報告呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:35:56.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:03.716000+08:00","text":"這個題目蠻難的，可能甚至涉及到財務面的東西，是不是給我們一點時間，好不好？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:03.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:04.636000+08:00","text":"講一個時間，這樣我們才可以監督。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:05.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:05.556000+08:00","text":"三個月好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:06.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:06.477000+08:00","text":"三個月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:07.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:08.398000+08:00","text":"兩個月不行嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:08.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:08.858000+08:00","text":"一定要三個月？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:10.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:13.720000+08:00","text":"好，三個月，希望有正面的答案，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:13.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:15.921000+08:00","text":"我們來努力看看有沒有什麼可能性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:16.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:17.942000+08:00","text":"國家應該要做表率，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:18.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:18.522000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:18.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:18.882000+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:19.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:22.524857+08:00","text":"接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時27分）謝謝召委，有請施部長。"],["主席：請施部長。"],["施部長能傑：委員早。"],["范委員雲：部長早。今天主要是針對公教人員的職場，我覺得還可以做更平等的育兒支持。首先要肯定勞動部，我們次長在這，這一次育兒環境的改善突破非常大，我想大家已經知道了，就是育嬰假升級為育兒假，另外一個就是6加3，鼓勵雙親一起育兒，因為有很多國際的研究都看到爸爸一起加入，對於女性回到職場這件事是有幫助的，對於願意生養下一代的部分，這個經驗是非常正面的、是有幫助的。","我也告訴大家，兩年前我就跟勞動部前部長時代，當時就談到彈性育嬰假很重要，可是勞動部的計畫做得不夠好，去年我也跟卓院長總質詢，覺得以日請休很重要，非常高興這次勞動部能夠提出跟我問政方向一致的修正草案。但是今天我除了肯定勞動部之外，因為剛剛部長一直講到這次是對齊性工法、勞動部相關的改革，你們的新聞稿也都是這樣寫，我們來看一下這一次的部分，一致的部分做得很好，但是我看到有幾個差異，第一個就是留停津貼的數額計算基準不同。剛剛沈委員也有提到，所謂的加發20%是依照補助要點，這部分公保法也有，對不對？但是因為公教人員實領俸給的部分是所謂的本俸加加給，以我自己也是公立大學的教授來看，非常高的比例是放在加給，計算起來我們會發現有很大的差異，但是我也先肯定你們，本俸低於最低工資的部分就以最低工資算，但是高於最低工資的公教人員的計算方式，其實有很大的差異。","我們辦公室用這個來算，公立學校教師是245薪級，他的薪額是兩萬九千多，俸給是五萬五千多，他實際領到的育兒津貼是1萬7,700，只占其月薪的31.7%。剛剛是公立學校的老師，是低於最低工資，如果用公務員來算，是高於最低工資，你可以看到育兒津貼算起來占他實際月薪的32.4%。至於一般勞工……這裡要跟大家講一下，我助理把育兒津貼的數字寫錯，應該是2萬7,480，算起來是實際月薪的48.8%，所以是接近領到一半。我覺得勞動部也可以改善這一塊，因為對越高薪的越不利，雖然這次已經有突破，也已經比過去好。對公務員來講，如果不到實際月薪的三分之一，那麼到底誰能夠請領？其實也是經濟環境比較寬裕的，可能要雙薪家庭，如果家裡只有一個人的薪水的話，其實影響蠻大的。我想這個部分，不知道部長……"],["施部長能傑：我可以跟委員先說明一下嗎？"],["范委員雲：好。"],["施部長能傑：第一個部分，其實整體都還是要回到公教保險是用準備金支付的，所以用什麼母數去投保，就用那個母數去做計算基準，如果要把母數擴大，就像退撫是用本俸乘以二，意思就是每個人通通要多繳保費，而多繳保費的結果，因為公教給付項目非常多，所以這個真的跟剛剛的問題一樣，是不是公教同仁全體都贊成只是為了這個而去提高，然後大家都要多繳保費？我個人沒有特別的意見，只是表達實際技術上操作會碰到這個問題，所以這需要更多的討論。"],["范委員雲：了解，所以您的意思是財源的問題，並不是……"],["施部長能傑：就是要調保費，保費一定增加，有可能費率還會再重新計算，有可能再提高費率，所以全體公教同仁都可能因為這樣而需要增加他們的負擔。雖然……"],["范委員雲：公務人員其實並沒有表達反對過。"],["施部長能傑：對，針對這個議題，我只是從部裡面做制度面的設計，因為我們有責任把可能的情境提出來。"],["范委員雲：你們有責任提出可能的方向，因為這樣對公務人員來講，他們育兒留停的機會其實比勞工的待遇差。"],["施部長能傑：我理解。"],["范委員雲：當然還有另外一個部分，我們辦公室也發現，就收養子女先行共同生活期間，院版的就保法有照顧到這個問題，算是很體貼，如果想要收養小孩，共同生活期間可以領育兒留職停薪津貼，可是考試院版的公保法就沒有類似的計畫，這部分是你們漏掉了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：因為考試院會比較傾向在法律關係沒有確定以前，可能採取比較保守的方式，所以目前沒有加上去，不過，如果院版是這樣通過的話，我想這可能就變成……"],["范委員雲：對，你們可以考慮……"],["施部長能傑：我們可能就得去面對這個事情。"],["范委員雲：因為裡面都有提到，法院裁決如果沒有認定的話，當事人就要返還，所以其實國家並不會因此有損失，可是如果我們以鼓勵收養的角度來講，既然院版的就保法連這個部分都考慮到了，我覺得也不要讓公教人員相對權益不比勞工吧！"],["施部長能傑：好，我帶回去研議。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長願意研議，銓敘部的部分我剛剛已經有提到。今天就兩題，打造育兒友善的職場，國家是公教人員的老闆，國家當然應該要讓公教人員當表率，沒有比勞工好就算了，不能比現在勞動部主管的勞工育兒友善環境差。因此第一個，我請考試院銓敘部，可不可以研究一下民主國家的公教人員育嬰留停津貼的計算方式？希望評估不低於一般勞工的可行做法，我的理想是應該要覺得更好，但是我想我們先從不低於目前勞動部改革一般勞工的可行做法。另外，研擬如何讓公教人員收養子女者也比照一般勞工，有平等育兒留停津貼的請領機會，就這兩樣，可以嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們來了解，我們知道勞工是以其薪資去投保，而我們是用本俸，剛剛委員有算出差距，我們看看這部分還有沒有什麼可行的方式來減少，就像我們讓它不可以低於最低工資已經先走一步，然後這個我們再來看看有沒有什麼方式……"],["范委員雲：以公立大學來講，其加給幾乎占薪資的一半。"],["施部長能傑：我知道，因為不同公務人員的加給跟薪資比例，大學是剛好差不多一比一，但其他部分都是本俸高於加給。"],["范委員雲：中高階公務人員的情況，我想你應該比我更了解。"],["施部長能傑：狀況不一。"],["范委員雲：因為只領到三分之一，真的非常多人如果家裡靠一份薪水的話是沒有辦法請的。"],["施部長能傑：我理解，我跟同仁再好好談一下這個事情。"],["范委員雲：謝謝部長。請問多久內可以給我相關的報告呢？"],["施部長能傑：這個題目蠻難的，可能甚至涉及到財務面的東西，是不是給我們一點時間，好不好？"],["范委員雲：講一個時間，這樣我們才可以監督。"],["施部長能傑：三個月好不好？"],["范委員雲：三個月？兩個月不行嗎？一定要三個月？好，三個月，希望有正面的答案，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：我們來努力看看有沒有什麼可能性。"],["范委員雲：國家應該要做表率，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。","接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-20","speakers":["翁曉玲","王安祥","林沛祥","陳昭姿","沈發惠","范雲","莊瑞雄","張雅琳","許宇甄","洪孟楷","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留\n職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委員羅智強\n等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教\n人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二\n條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}