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這出現了一個問題啦就政府我們這一次的一個立法裡面喔反而也去等於間接去承認啦公務員的一個薪資的一個本縫的結構來看的話它其實是落後的為什麼提出這個問題呢 就是說任何國家政策要去推動公務人員都有帶頭的作用啦"},{"start":198.717,"end":218.903,"text":"我們都有帶頭的作用所以你現在就是說我們現在這個修法你看你說這個補貼就政府一方面說公務人員的跟勞工的制度你們可能會講說公務人員跟勞工制度會不同待遇不能直接去做比較可是我們另外一方面又要用最低工資的作為育嬰津貼的一個保障的一個底線這個其實會碰到一些問題"},{"start":223.407,"end":252.114,"text":"就會反映 你看反映的問題就是我們前陣子大家在那邊炒說公務人員這個離職炒的問題啊那基層公務人員也會給你反映啊我本縫你都不調你給他調加級甚至於我這個加班費其實也是有限的那這種狀況的話 你現在育嬰的津貼你都必須要去靠補差額才可以維持這樣基本的一個保障齁這個我不知道 柏定或者考詮這個地方 副院長你們的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":254.858,"end":272.986,"text":"看數字啦我們現在大概五千多個嘛裡面大概有一千多位是確實低於那個翠梨公子的差不多二十%啦差不多以他的縫點來講差不多相當於一個高考剛分發的那個六本以下的那一個縫點差不多就會低於"},{"start":273.769,"end":298.249,"text":"那個本縫就是最低工資啦 大概是這樣一個數字啦那剛剛委員提到就是說那本縫 因為我們的公共人員薪資結構你也知道比較複雜啦所以本縫以後還有專業家只要不同的東西所以在一個保險制度裡面我們當初設計公保就是以本縫 很多都是用本縫來做基準啦那本縫做基準他就會碰到"},{"start":298.869,"end":319.108,"text":"如果那個縫額太低就會換算起來真的是會有差但像退休的部分我們就改用本縫乘以2反過來就是不一樣所以部長其實你也承認這樣的狀況存在那這次立法以後會產生一個什麼問題呢就是說我因為本縫偏低"},{"start":319.949,"end":334.602,"text":"阿我這個政策來講的話 我要申請這個育嬰留庭的話 我最會嫁阿 我太 又嬰又變不足啦阿就是說你們有沒有去預估 你知道說多少公務人員會 真正會去受惠阿還是說你這個補差額以後會不會影響說他提高申請的一個意願難道你們不會發現這樣的一個問題嗎"},{"start":343.923,"end":362.283,"text":"內部有討論,跟委員剛剛講的一樣,我們真的沒有科學數字來,我們做很多對於那個意願有沒有辦法,這個我們不用去管他,我們只負責呢,就認為我們應該多做這種支持性的工作要管嘛,假定越高就越有可能有人,就良性的"},{"start":363.584,"end":390.678,"text":"這個機率就越多人會申請嘛大概只能這樣去處理啦至於說本縫這個事情簡單講我們現在有些本縫大概譬如像說高考進來的本縫六本一以上的大概他大概就是他金額本來就比那個最低工資高啦那所以但是再怎麼算起來他就不是全新啦去投保啊就會出現那個落差但是如果要用全新的話就我剛剛講他涉及到整個財務結構呢"},{"start":392.706,"end":405.858,"text":"你講這個財富結構我覺得很好啊你像譬如說你最低勞工最低薪資的話你那個最低的工資原則上我看這個是幾乎在逐年在調升對沒錯那你逐年在調升的話你如果本縫的一個結構你不去調整的話那你符合補差額的資格人數也會越來越多那本縫本來調薪的時候本縫也跟著會調啦"},{"start":417.408,"end":435.277,"text":"當然啦 所以你整個補貼的金額也會去增加啊所以你全區部也必須要去講說你評估說我未來預算的需求到底是多少你補差額的政策是不是可以長期去做一個擴大就是說其實重點是只有一個啦就你說的 說那個薪資結構非常複雜啦非常複雜以後你有沒有去思考說根本檢討公務人員的本縫的一個結構我們各位想一下本縫的結構 威廉你應該知道這個"},{"start":446.943,"end":465.932,"text":"那個本縫是幾點幾點的制度但是實際上的金額這是行政院的慣例譬如說這樣講385點縫點到底要給他多少錢這行政院負責的不是我們負責我們只負責那個縫點是幾點差距是這樣子啦但是確實那個本縫每次在調薪的時候一定譬如你要調"},{"start":468.252,"end":490.819,"text":"4% 5%本碰就會跟著調4% 5%過去慣例都是這樣做那他會跟著往上走那委員剛剛問的是這一次我們如果把他最低工資還是在調啊往上跑啊那我們先講以現在假設我們現在的制度去估算的話大概我們用這個差額大概不多啦政府需要補的差額真的很少啦不多是要多少不多"},{"start":493.06,"end":518.619,"text":"大概成幾萬跟兩千萬啦這樣也很少的生意啊但是這個事情就是說當我們把制度放寬以後如果良性循環就會變成越來越多人會來使用嘛越來越多人使用差額就會補得越來越多嘛所以這個其實是一個情境我很難想像我現在可以去算得那麼精準只是說我們確實有想過這個問題啦"},{"start":520.089,"end":540.584,"text":"其實我對這一次的一個制度的參與育兒的一個新的制度的一個設計修法的一個方向其實我是表達肯定那你說是否採取雙薪都先領滿六個月以後才能再增加三個月或者說現在雙薪最長可能各六個月以現在來看你公務領完育嬰留庭人數現在有多少人"},{"start":549.482,"end":562.192,"text":"一年三千多 去年三千多人 現在四千多了四千 你們給我的資料 公務人員 育嬰 留庭人數四千四百八十七啦 現況對 現況 然後降五趴啦但重點是喔 我相信每一個委員的版本都會提到 大家討論會提到 女性佔八成啦"},{"start":572.855,"end":581.021,"text":"男性要降低到兩成 你這次修法當然就是說增加男性申請的一個誘因促進家庭裡面育兒 男女大家一起來 降低女性職場的生涯裡面跟家庭雙重的一個負擔其實對這樣的一個政策我認為是對的"},{"start":594.89,"end":616.704,"text":"這一個方向我認為才是最肯認的一個地方我每次一看到我們一看到那個整個留庭的部分都是女生我們男生好像就是好像照顧小孩子沒有男生的事當然一個家庭的一個組成裡面也許夫妻之間會去商量說不然我們不要兩個都大廚我們一個去一個繼續上班可是你怎麼挑挑到最後都是女性去上班"},{"start":624.549,"end":636.926,"text":"都是女性申請這也很奇怪就是說男生就把這個責任都共同對家庭的支持這個部分好像就是說把這個責任就稍微給拖免掉了那這一次的修法那男女大家一起來做一個參與"},{"start":641.793,"end":652.847,"text":"這個對於這個育兒也向社會宣示這個不是媽媽一個人的責任啦這個也是爸爸共同的一個責任這個我們是表達支持啦我是眼淚啦"},{"start":656.812,"end":673.778,"text":"那個其實那個本縫那個部分雖然是複雜可是從這次修法裡面我們真的可以看得出來你如果到最後你是要比照勞工的基本薪資那看起來那個本縫的部分確實是有調整的一個必要啦委員你知道那是素人市長的責任好啦OK這個其實"},{"start":680.649,"end":695.923,"text":"看到問題啊你們最常互動跟行政院最常互動的就是你們啦對啦看到這個問題其實大家應該是共同去推進因為畢竟任何政策要在國家裡面實施大家都"},{"start":697.267,"end":725.349,"text":"一定在看公家機關的一個方向是什麼你去看你去看這個這一次啊我們這個少子女化的問題喔台灣我們現在全世界都沒那麼多嘛你去看韓國你去看匈牙利那個多激進的一個財政的一個支持啊那確實是很可怕喔三十歲的孩子你生孩子不用稅金你生三個一輩子全部都不用稅金甚至於你生了小孩"},{"start":727.383,"end":735.411,"text":"買房子投機款這真的政府幫你出雖然是一百多萬也就是說國外但是那個有沒有達到效果是讓他停止繼續惡化而已到未必去達到生育率會產生多少全世界這個經濟發展以後"},{"start":745.96,"end":761.389,"text":"達到人口替代率2.1的只有一個國家就只有以色列以色列又是因為宗教問題不然你說歐洲國家 美國他們人口出生率也說低於人口替代率所以很多人就認為說你不用我只要採移民政策讓更多人來為這個國家貢獻可是這個部分我們又"},{"start":769.275,"end":779.582,"text":"制度啊 其實跟別的國家做比較的話 我們又有太多太多的一個考量啊要不然喔 超過五六個喔 都是哪裡你知道嗎 都是非洲啦生小孩剩五個六個的全部都是非洲啦那種GDP喔 你看都一千以下的啦那我們這個經濟 這個國民所得一提高以後 大家都不是啦"},{"start":791.526,"end":796.269,"text":"我辦公室的 年輕人的 只有一隻小孩子其他全部都沒有 所以我們不敢太苛求你們但問題是這個政策推行的方向 草野大家都看到問題但是政府就唯一不能去逼迫就是強迫人家生小孩 不生你也沒辦法但那個提供怎麼樣的誘因 支持然後對減輕他們的一個負擔這個政府其實可以再加大力道來做啦 好不好 好 謝謝"},{"start":821.186,"end":823.643,"text":"謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:29.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:29.286000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請考試院及銓敘部。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:29.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:36:29.426000+08:00","text":"請施部長及吳副秘。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:36:52.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:37:42.291000+08:00","text":"針對兩位，這次我看行政院提出了人口對策新戰略跟育兒政策，看起來立法院其他委員的版本有提出，但這個政策其實值得支持，尤其是考試院銓敘部修正公保法，放寬育嬰留停津貼，甚至於子女的部分，我看年齡放寬到7歲，雙親最長可以請領9個月，這個方向其實都是正確的，對於減輕家庭育兒的負擔，這當然一定會有幫助，但到底會不會提升生育意願？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:37:42.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:37:46.456000+08:00","text":"這個可能就要有數據，事後再來觀察。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:37:47.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:38:08.949000+08:00","text":"這個方向大體上其實都是值得肯定的，但有幾個問題要就教，像公務人員的育嬰津貼，低於最低工資保障水準的部分，我要就教的是，有多少公務人員領不到最低工資水準？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:38:09.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:38:49.401000+08:00","text":"我看國防部的統計，113年有七成官兵的育嬰津貼低於勞工最低投保薪資標準；銓敘部的資料確實也顯示，全體公保被保險人差不多是50萬，每一年請領育嬰津貼的大概是五千多人，也就是20%請領者的津貼低於最低工資80%保障標準，看起來這個就不是少數年輕新人的問題。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:38:52.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:39:11.102000+08:00","text":"部長，許多已經具備一定年資，甚至擔任基層主管的公務人員也落入補貼的範圍，現在本俸是2萬9,270，換算育嬰津貼是2萬3,416，政府還要再補貼184元才可以達到最低工資保障。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:39:21.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:39:38.981000+08:00","text":"也就是這出現了一個問題，政府在這次的立法裡面，反而也等於間接承認公務員薪資的本俸結構是落後的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:39:40.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:39:40.862000+08:00","text":"我為什麼提出這個問題？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:39:42.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:14.227000+08:00","text":"任何國家政策要去推動，公務人員都有帶頭的作用，所以現在這個修法，你看補貼的部分，政府一方面說公務人員跟勞工的制度不同，你們可能會講公務人員跟勞工制度不同，因此待遇不能直接比較，可是我們另外一方面又要用最低工資作為育嬰津貼保障的一個底線，這個其實會碰到一些問題，會反映出一些問題。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:14.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:27.411000+08:00","text":"像我們前陣子大家在那邊吵公務人員離職潮的問題，基層公務人員也會跟你反映本俸都不調，只調加給，甚至於加班費其實也是有限的。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:28.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:35.853000+08:00","text":"因此這種狀況之下，現在育嬰津貼都必須要靠補差額才可以維持基本的保障。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:37.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:41.114000+08:00","text":"我不知道部長或者考試院副秘書長，你們的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:44.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:53.122000+08:00","text":"從數字看起來，我們現在五千多個，裡面大概有一千多位確實低於最低工資，差不多占20%。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:53.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:40:54.022000+08:00","text":"對，差不多20%。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:40:54.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:05.431000+08:00","text":"以俸點來講，差不多相當於高考剛分發六本一以下的俸點，他的本俸就會低於最低工資，大概是這樣一個數字。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:06.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:16.940000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到，因為你也知道我們公務人員的薪資結構比較複雜，除了本俸以外還有專業加給，還有不同的……","quality":0.659},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:16.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:17.941000+08:00","text":"那當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:17.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:33.474000+08:00","text":"所以在一個保險制度裡面，我們當初設計公保就是以本俸，很多都是用本俸做基準，因此就會碰到如果俸額太低的換算起來真的會有差。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:33.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:39.500000+08:00","text":"像退休的部分，我們就改用本俸乘以二，反過來就是不一樣，所以……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:39.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:45.646000+08:00","text":"所以部長其實也承認有這樣的狀況存在，但這次立法以後會產生一個什麼問題？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:45.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:41:58.237000+08:00","text":"就是本俸偏低，如果就這個政策要申請育嬰留停的話，因為太低了誘因又變不足啦！","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:41:59.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:00.419000+08:00","text":"因此你們有沒有預估？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:01.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:02.661000+08:00","text":"你現在說多少公務人員會真正受惠？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:03.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:03.422000+08:00","text":"或是補差額以後，會不會影響提高申請的意願？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:03.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:03.602000+08:00","text":"難道你們沒發現會有這樣的問題嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:12.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:15.786000+08:00","text":"我們內部有討論，但跟委員剛剛講的一樣。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:15.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:35.346000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們真的沒有科學數字來了解……我們做很多，但對於意願有沒有幫助，這個我們不用去管他，我們只負責並認為我們應該多做這種支持性的工作，要提高補助，假定越高，有良性的循環，就可能會有越來越多人申請，申請機率就會增加，大概只能這樣去處理。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:37.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:54.295000+08:00","text":"至於本俸這個事情，簡單講，我們現在有些本俸譬如像高考進來本俸六本一以上的，他金額本來就比最低工資高，但是再怎麼算起來就不是全薪去投保……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:54.295000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:55.295000+08:00","text":"那當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:54.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:56.277000+08:00","text":"就會出現落差。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:42:56.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:42:59.658000+08:00","text":"但是如果要用全薪的話，就我剛剛講的，會涉及到整個財務結構的評估啦！","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:01.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:12.296000+08:00","text":"好，你講這個財務結構我覺得很好啊，譬如說勞工最低工資，原則上我看最低工資幾乎是逐年在調升喔！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:12.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:12.416000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:12.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:14.518000+08:00","text":"它逐年在調升，但如果本俸的結構不去調整的話，這樣符合補差額的資格與人數也會越來越多喔！","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:14.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:14.838000+08:00","text":"不是，本來調薪的時候本俸也會跟著調啦！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:26.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:29.550000+08:00","text":"當然啦，所以你整個補貼的金額也會增加啊！對。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:29.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:35.413000+08:00","text":"所以銓敘部也必須要去評估未來預算的需求到底是多少？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:36.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:39.675000+08:00","text":"補差額的政策是不是可以長期擴大？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:39.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:43.837000+08:00","text":"其實重點只有一個，就是你說的薪資結構非常複雜啦，但是你們有從根本去思考檢討公務人員本俸的結構嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:43.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:43:44.837000+08:00","text":"你們有想到這個嗎？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:43:44.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:10.350000+08:00","text":"關於本俸的結構……委員應該知道，本俸幾點這是制度，但實際上的金額這是行政院管的，譬如385俸點到底要給他多少錢，這是行政院負責的，不是我們負責的，我們只負責俸點是幾點，差距是這樣子啦！","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:10.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:21.394000+08:00","text":"但是確實每次調薪的時候，譬如如果調4%、5%，本俸就會跟著調4%、5%，過去慣例都是這樣做，它會跟著往上走。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:27.415000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛問的是，這一次我們如果把它比照最低工資……但它還是在調，還是會往上跑啊！","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:27.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:29.016000+08:00","text":"它一定調的，沒錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:29.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:38.438000+08:00","text":"我們先講，假設以我們現在的制度去估算的話，這個差額大概不多，政府需要補的差額真的很少啦！","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:38.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:39.279000+08:00","text":"不多，是差不多多少？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:42.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:45.322000+08:00","text":"大概一千多萬到兩千萬。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:46.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:47.744000+08:00","text":"這樣也是很小的數字啊！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:49.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:44:58.753000+08:00","text":"對，但這個事情就是當我們把制度放寬以後，如果良性循環，就會變得有越來越多人會來使用，越來越多人使用，這樣差額就會補得越來越多嘛！當然。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:44:58.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:07.599000+08:00","text":"所以這個其實是一個情境，我們也很難想像現在可以去算得那麼精準，只是我們確實有想過這個問題啦！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:09.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:19.837000+08:00","text":"其實對於這一次參與育兒新制度的設計和修法方向，我是表達肯定啦！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:20.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:28.243000+08:00","text":"你說是否採取雙親都先領滿六個月以後才能再增加三個月，或者說雙親最長可領各六個月？","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:28.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:29.564000+08:00","text":"如果以現在來看，公務人員現在育嬰留停的人數有多少人？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:38.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:42.405000+08:00","text":"一年有三千多，去年三千多人。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:43.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:48.409000+08:00","text":"現在四千多了，你們給我的資料公務人員育嬰留停的人數是4,487啦！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:48.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:49.791000+08:00","text":"我指領津貼的有三千多人啦！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:49.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:45:50.171000+08:00","text":"現況差不多占5%啦！","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:45:50.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:46:03.036000+08:00","text":"但重點是我相信每一個委員的版本都會提到、大家討論時會提到，其中女性占八成，男性占不到兩成啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:46:04.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:46:26.772000+08:00","text":"當然，你這次修法是增加男性申請的誘因，促進家庭裡面不分男女大家一起來育兒的觀念，降低女性職場生涯跟家庭雙重的負擔，其實這樣的政策我認為是對的啦，這一個方向是我最肯認的地方。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:46:28.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:46:39.060000+08:00","text":"不然我每次看到留停的幾乎都是女生，對於照顧小孩子好像沒有男生的事。","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:46:39.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:04.544000+08:00","text":"當然，一個家庭的組成裡面也許夫妻之間會商量不要兩個都在家，我們就一個留停，一個繼續上班，可是你怎麼挑，挑到最後都是女性來申請留停，這也很奇怪，好像男生共同對家庭支持的責任就稍微脫免掉了！","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:05.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:21.587000+08:00","text":"因此這一次的修法讓男女一起來參與，也向社會宣示育兒不是媽媽一個人的責任，也是爸爸共同的責任，因此我們是表達支持啦！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:21.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:41.218000+08:00","text":"我認為本俸部分雖然複雜，可是從這次修法裡面我們真的可以看得出來，到最後你如果是要比照勞工的基本薪資，看起來本俸部分確實是有調整的必要啦！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:41.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:42.558000+08:00","text":"委員，你知道那是蘇人事長的責任啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:42.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:56.215000+08:00","text":"好啦，OK，其實看到問題，跟行政院最常互動的就是你們啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:56.215000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:47:57.697000+08:00","text":"對啦，我們會充分跟大家討論這個事情，這是一定的啦！","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:47:57.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:01.500000+08:00","text":"對啦，其實大家看到這個問題應該是要共同去推進啦！","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:01.500000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:02.500000+08:00","text":"沒有錯啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:01.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:09.670000+08:00","text":"畢竟任何政策要在國家實施，大家都一定在看公家機關的方向是什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:09.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:40.107000+08:00","text":"你看這一次我們少子女化的問題，臺灣現在是全世界的最後一名，你看韓國，你看匈牙利，他們用多激進財政的支持，那確實是很可怕喔，30歲以下生小孩不用稅金，如果生3個一輩子全部都不用稅金，甚至於你生了小孩，買房子的頭期款真的是政府幫你出，雖然只是一百多萬啦！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:40.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:42.789000+08:00","text":"但是國外這些措施有沒有達到效果？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:42.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:48:44.150000+08:00","text":"也只是讓它停止繼續惡化而已啦，倒未必會增加多少生育率啦！","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:48:44.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:08.107000+08:00","text":"全世界經濟發展以後，達到人口替代率2.1的只有一個國家，就只有以色列，以色列又是因為宗教問題，不然你說歐洲國家、美國，他們人口出生率也是低於人口替代率啊！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:09.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:24.219000+08:00","text":"所以很多人就會認為，如果國人不生，那只好採取移民政策，讓更多人來為這個國家貢獻，可是這個部分我們的制度跟別的國家比較的話，我們又有太多、太多的考量了。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:25.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:26.040000+08:00","text":"不然你知道生育率超過5%、6%都是哪裡嗎？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:26.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:27.401000+08:00","text":"都是非洲啦，生小孩生5個、6個的全部都是非洲，他們GDP都是在1,000美元以下的啦！","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:27.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:28.562000+08:00","text":"我們經濟好轉、國民所得提高以後，大家都不生啦！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:40.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:42.568000+08:00","text":"我辦公室裡面的年輕人，只有一個結婚生小孩，其他全部都沒有，所以我們不敢太苛求你們，但這個政策推行的方向是朝野大家都看到問題啊！","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:42.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:44.189000+08:00","text":"政府唯一不能去逼迫的就是強迫人家生小孩，他不生，你也拿他沒辦法啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:44.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:45.229000+08:00","text":"但提供怎麼樣的誘因、支持來減輕他們的負擔，政府其實可以再加大力道做，好不好？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:45.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:45.269000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:45.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:49:58.340429+08:00","text":"謝謝我們莊召委，您可能給辦公室同仁太多工作了，給他們多放點假，這樣可以促進提高生育率還有結婚率。","quality":0.045},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-06-24T10:49:58.640429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:01.783286+08:00","text":"我的辦公室是幸福辦公室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:02.083286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:06.083286+08:00","text":"那麼幸福，結果大家還是不婚不生。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:06.383286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:10.669000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時36分）謝謝召委，有請考試院及銓敘部。"],["主席：請施部長及吳副秘。"],["莊委員瑞雄：針對兩位，這次我看行政院提出了人口對策新戰略跟育兒政策，看起來立法院其他委員的版本有提出，但這個政策其實值得支持，尤其是考試院銓敘部修正公保法，放寬育嬰留停津貼，甚至於子女的部分，我看年齡放寬到7歲，雙親最長可以請領9個月，這個方向其實都是正確的，對於減輕家庭育兒的負擔，這當然一定會有幫助，但到底會不會提升生育意願？這個可能就要有數據，事後再來觀察。這個方向大體上其實都是值得肯定的，但有幾個問題要就教，像公務人員的育嬰津貼，低於最低工資保障水準的部分，我要就教的是，有多少公務人員領不到最低工資水準？我看國防部的統計，113年有七成官兵的育嬰津貼低於勞工最低投保薪資標準；銓敘部的資料確實也顯示，全體公保被保險人差不多是50萬，每一年請領育嬰津貼的大概是五千多人，也就是20%請領者的津貼低於最低工資80%保障標準，看起來這個就不是少數年輕新人的問題。","部長，許多已經具備一定年資，甚至擔任基層主管的公務人員也落入補貼的範圍，現在本俸是2萬9,270，換算育嬰津貼是2萬3,416，政府還要再補貼184元才可以達到最低工資保障。也就是這出現了一個問題，政府在這次的立法裡面，反而也等於間接承認公務員薪資的本俸結構是落後的。我為什麼提出這個問題？任何國家政策要去推動，公務人員都有帶頭的作用，所以現在這個修法，你看補貼的部分，政府一方面說公務人員跟勞工的制度不同，你們可能會講公務人員跟勞工制度不同，因此待遇不能直接比較，可是我們另外一方面又要用最低工資作為育嬰津貼保障的一個底線，這個其實會碰到一些問題，會反映出一些問題。像我們前陣子大家在那邊吵公務人員離職潮的問題，基層公務人員也會跟你反映本俸都不調，只調加給，甚至於加班費其實也是有限的。因此這種狀況之下，現在育嬰津貼都必須要靠補差額才可以維持基本的保障。我不知道部長或者考試院副秘書長，你們的看法是怎麼樣？"],["施部長能傑：從數字看起來，我們現在五千多個，裡面大概有一千多位確實低於最低工資，差不多占20%。"],["莊委員瑞雄：對，差不多20%。"],["施部長能傑：以俸點來講，差不多相當於高考剛分發六本一以下的俸點，他的本俸就會低於最低工資，大概是這樣一個數字。剛剛委員提到，因為你也知道我們公務人員的薪資結構比較複雜，除了本俸以外還有專業加給，還有不同的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["施部長能傑：所以在一個保險制度裡面，我們當初設計公保就是以本俸，很多都是用本俸做基準，因此就會碰到如果俸額太低的換算起來真的會有差。像退休的部分，我們就改用本俸乘以二，反過來就是不一樣，所以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以部長其實也承認有這樣的狀況存在，但這次立法以後會產生一個什麼問題？就是本俸偏低，如果就這個政策要申請育嬰留停的話，因為太低了誘因又變不足啦！因此你們有沒有預估？你現在說多少公務人員會真正受惠？或是補差額以後，會不會影響提高申請的意願？難道你們沒發現會有這樣的問題嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我們內部有討論，但跟委員剛剛講的一樣。我跟委員報告，我們真的沒有科學數字來了解……我們做很多，但對於意願有沒有幫助，這個我們不用去管他，我們只負責並認為我們應該多做這種支持性的工作，要提高補助，假定越高，有良性的循環，就可能會有越來越多人申請，申請機率就會增加，大概只能這樣去處理。至於本俸這個事情，簡單講，我們現在有些本俸譬如像高考進來本俸六本一以上的，他金額本來就比最低工資高，但是再怎麼算起來就不是全薪去投保……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["施部長能傑：就會出現落差。但是如果要用全薪的話，就我剛剛講的，會涉及到整個財務結構的評估啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，你講這個財務結構我覺得很好啊，譬如說勞工最低工資，原則上我看最低工資幾乎是逐年在調升喔！"],["施部長能傑：對，沒錯。"],["莊委員瑞雄：它逐年在調升，但如果本俸的結構不去調整的話，這樣符合補差額的資格與人數也會越來越多喔！"],["施部長能傑：不是，本來調薪的時候本俸也會跟著調啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然啦，所以你整個補貼的金額也會增加啊！"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以銓敘部也必須要去評估未來預算的需求到底是多少？補差額的政策是不是可以長期擴大？其實重點只有一個，就是你說的薪資結構非常複雜啦，但是你們有從根本去思考檢討公務人員本俸的結構嗎？你們有想到這個嗎？"],["施部長能傑：關於本俸的結構……委員應該知道，本俸幾點這是制度，但實際上的金額這是行政院管的，譬如385俸點到底要給他多少錢，這是行政院負責的，不是我們負責的，我們只負責俸點是幾點，差距是這樣子啦！但是確實每次調薪的時候，譬如如果調4%、5%，本俸就會跟著調4%、5%，過去慣例都是這樣做，它會跟著往上走。委員剛剛問的是，這一次我們如果把它比照最低工資……但它還是在調，還是會往上跑啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：它一定調的，沒錯啊！"],["施部長能傑：我們先講，假設以我們現在的制度去估算的話，這個差額大概不多，政府需要補的差額真的很少啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：不多，是差不多多少？"],["施部長能傑：大概一千多萬到兩千萬。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣也是很小的數字啊！"],["施部長能傑：對，但這個事情就是當我們把制度放寬以後，如果良性循環，就會變得有越來越多人會來使用，越來越多人使用，這樣差額就會補得越來越多嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。"],["施部長能傑：所以這個其實是一個情境，我們也很難想像現在可以去算得那麼精準，只是我們確實有想過這個問題啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實對於這一次參與育兒新制度的設計和修法方向，我是表達肯定啦！你說是否採取雙親都先領滿六個月以後才能再增加三個月，或者說雙親最長可領各六個月？如果以現在來看，公務人員現在育嬰留停的人數有多少人？"],["施部長能傑：一年有三千多，去年三千多人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：現在四千多了，你們給我的資料公務人員育嬰留停的人數是4,487啦！"],["施部長能傑：我指領津貼的有三千多人啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：現況差不多占5%啦！但重點是我相信每一個委員的版本都會提到、大家討論時會提到，其中女性占八成，男性占不到兩成啦！當然，你這次修法是增加男性申請的誘因，促進家庭裡面不分男女大家一起來育兒的觀念，降低女性職場生涯跟家庭雙重的負擔，其實這樣的政策我認為是對的啦，這一個方向是我最肯認的地方。不然我每次看到留停的幾乎都是女生，對於照顧小孩子好像沒有男生的事。當然，一個家庭的組成裡面也許夫妻之間會商量不要兩個都在家，我們就一個留停，一個繼續上班，可是你怎麼挑，挑到最後都是女性來申請留停，這也很奇怪，好像男生共同對家庭支持的責任就稍微脫免掉了！","因此這一次的修法讓男女一起來參與，也向社會宣示育兒不是媽媽一個人的責任，也是爸爸共同的責任，因此我們是表達支持啦！我認為本俸部分雖然複雜，可是從這次修法裡面我們真的可以看得出來，到最後你如果是要比照勞工的基本薪資，看起來本俸部分確實是有調整的必要啦！"],["施部長能傑：委員，你知道那是蘇人事長的責任啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：好啦，OK，其實看到問題，跟行政院最常互動的就是你們啦！"],["施部長能傑：對啦，我們會充分跟大家討論這個事情，這是一定的啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：對啦，其實大家看到這個問題應該是要共同去推進啦！"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：畢竟任何政策要在國家實施，大家都一定在看公家機關的方向是什麼。你看這一次我們少子女化的問題，臺灣現在是全世界的最後一名，你看韓國，你看匈牙利，他們用多激進財政的支持，那確實是很可怕喔，30歲以下生小孩不用稅金，如果生3個一輩子全部都不用稅金，甚至於你生了小孩，買房子的頭期款真的是政府幫你出，雖然只是一百多萬啦！但是國外這些措施有沒有達到效果？也只是讓它停止繼續惡化而已啦，倒未必會增加多少生育率啦！全世界經濟發展以後，達到人口替代率2.1的只有一個國家，就只有以色列，以色列又是因為宗教問題，不然你說歐洲國家、美國，他們人口出生率也是低於人口替代率啊！所以很多人就會認為，如果國人不生，那只好採取移民政策，讓更多人來為這個國家貢獻，可是這個部分我們的制度跟別的國家比較的話，我們又有太多、太多的考量了。不然你知道生育率超過5%、6%都是哪裡嗎？都是非洲啦，生小孩生5個、6個的全部都是非洲，他們GDP都是在1,000美元以下的啦！","我們經濟好轉、國民所得提高以後，大家都不生啦！我辦公室裡面的年輕人，只有一個結婚生小孩，其他全部都沒有，所以我們不敢太苛求你們，但這個政策推行的方向是朝野大家都看到問題啊！政府唯一不能去逼迫的就是強迫人家生小孩，他不生，你也拿他沒辦法啊！但提供怎麼樣的誘因、支持來減輕他們的負擔，政府其實可以再加大力道做，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們莊召委，您可能給辦公室同仁太多工作了，給他們多放點假，這樣可以促進提高生育率還有結婚率。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的辦公室是幸福辦公室。"],["主席：那麼幸福，結果大家還是不婚不生。","好，接下來我們有請張雅琳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-20","speakers":["翁曉玲","王安祥","林沛祥","陳昭姿","沈發惠","范雲","莊瑞雄","張雅琳","許宇甄","洪孟楷","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留\n職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委員羅智強\n等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教\n人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二\n條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}