{"error":false,"id":["170105"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170105,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170105","日期":"2026-06-24","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-20","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":20,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-24T10:50:31+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-24T11:04:57+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/eeac6239dd17b4461aa40574bd6130141e228f614125acb80a35aa3449b62c548d2e5e7e7ae529c45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:50:31 - 11:04:57","會議時間":"2026-06-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、併案審查\n（一）委員羅智強等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（五）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】\n【開會事由二僅進行詢答】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.410968750000002,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.52909375,"end":53.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.672218750000006,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.26159375,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":65.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.24909375,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.17721875000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.12284375,"end":128.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.87159375000002,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.99159375000002,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.97596875000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.74971875,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.74471875,"end":185.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.20034375,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.89596875,"end":189.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.40221875,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.90846875000003,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.13909375,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.88971875000001,"end":208.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.35596875000002,"end":215.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":218.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.54534375,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.78971875000002,"end":221.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.27409375000002,"end":226.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.59471875000003,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.61846875,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.96846875000003,"end":239.65596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.90159375,"end":266.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.19596875,"end":268.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.24221875,"end":270.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.64284375,"end":272.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.65909375,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.29534375000003,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.34159375,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.06721875,"end":286.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.20159375000003,"end":294.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.49596875000003,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.01034375,"end":301.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.83596875,"end":310.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.89909375,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.56471875,"end":322.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.54159375,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.51159375000003,"end":329.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.15596875,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.21784375000004,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.02721875000003,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.64721875000004,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.07471875000005,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.98971875,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.13659375000003,"end":380.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.41034375000004,"end":381.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.57471875000005,"end":389.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.92784375,"end":391.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.27346875,"end":393.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.52221875000004,"end":395.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.19721875000005,"end":395.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.26034375,"end":395.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.37846875,"end":399.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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謝謝謝謝主席我們有請全旭部跟勞動部次長好 請部長跟次長"},{"start":26.301,"end":50.988,"text":"好 謝謝我想要那個幸福的辦公室助理要幸福辦公室我是建議說我們的這個不要言會言那麼長這樣子的助理才有辦法好好的去研究法案這才是幸福我們自己在講這些育嬰留庭友善企業職場我自己認為我們立法院也要開始做起首先我先請教一下勞動部次長"},{"start":54.724,"end":72.618,"text":"就是說之前這個大家一直有在關注有很多的勞工團體也都非常關注就是勞保投保薪資的級距要跟勞保過去都等於勞保級距嘛這件事情要打開他的天花板那在一個多月前呢部長是說會花一個月的時間去研議那我不曉得說我們目前有沒有相關的進度呢"},{"start":73.058,"end":89.026,"text":"各位朋友我們這次舊保法的修法已經把這個已經有納入了我們就有一個舊保法新增一個法源可以讓舊保法有自己的投保薪資集聚那授權在法律裡面授權保安部來訂這個投保薪資的分期表"},{"start":89.466,"end":112.845,"text":"了解 好 謝謝那次長可以請回了請全序部 謝謝那我想全序部可以聽見次長可以請回沒關係那全序部我想部長剛剛有聽到就是說我們勞動部是一直以來一直不停的在去改善我們的育兒友善職場那剛剛也把大家長期以來非常關注的一個集聚上線給打開了所以接下來我就想要請教今天其實也非常非常多的委員來關注的有關於這個"},{"start":114.526,"end":139.432,"text":"育嬰留庭的一個比例為什麼會產生這樣子的問題呢我們可以看到在公務機關的申請育嬰留庭的比例呢是從110年到現在長期以來我們可以看到他的男性的比例都是比較少的先不管男女比例我們光公務人員跟民間來比我們長期以來都是比較低的那為什麼今天有很多委員提出了他們認為是本縫的問題我認為這是其中的一個問題沒有錯"},{"start":144.079,"end":172.918,"text":"所以我想就是說不管是在民間或者是國際都有發現說其實應該要讓在照顧生養子女的時候男性女性都應該要同等的來負責嘛那我想問一下就是說今天這個本封剛剛其實我有聽到你回覆這個范雲委員是說我們其實如果本封要調整可能會有一些人持不同的態度跟意見那我想問的是說我們剛剛也有聽到說你會去做一些相關的調查嘛對不對"},{"start":173.678,"end":201.072,"text":"是嗎好像是不一定是調我們會多方在討論這樣一個一個徵詢意見啦應該這樣講好多方徵詢意見那三個月預計剛好是兩個月吧好像會提供那個報告三個月三個月好那這個報告是不是也可以一併的提供到我們辦公室好不好如果報告就一併一併好沒問題那再來就是說那我想問的是說當今天本縫的調整上如果大家的意見非常分歧的話那我們要如何來保障"},{"start":202.032,"end":208.5,"text":"越來越少的育嬰的就是整體人數越來越少的一個育嬰的家庭呢"},{"start":210.492,"end":232.537,"text":"委員老師說我現在沒有辦法很精確回答你這個問題我坦白說 對所以但是這也是我們在三個月裡面好好去想想的事情我覺得這件事情就是希望你們一併來思考就是如果說大家對於本縫有些因為相對來說現在育嬰的人就是少嘛對不對因為生養子女的人少了嘛所以如果綜合來說最大的聲音可能是我反對調整這個本縫嘛對不對"},{"start":234.477,"end":259.813,"text":"因為他會造成一些人的投報薪資他就要投更多的錢進來嘛 對不對所以可能會收到是這樣子的一個結果那我想問的就是說在這樣子的結果收到之後我希望你們要進一步的去思考我們要如何去保障這些育嬰的家庭因為我們整體的目標還是希望可以去創造一個更平等的育兒育嬰的環境嘛育兒的環境 對不對所以這部分是可以承諾的嗎"},{"start":261.44,"end":278.177,"text":"我知道我們的目標就是怎麼樣讓育嬰流挺的簡單講他可能男性比例要提高啦最簡單來講就是這樣啦我不完全是從這個角度是說他的津貼本身的比例"},{"start":279.375,"end":297.375,"text":"是可以再往上提高這個才是我認為我們應該要來想想要努力的因為其實只有因為在從勞保的數字或是勞動部今年提的育嬰留情與日型之後我們可以看到男性的比例在增加男性女性這個如果從統計學上來講的話因為兩邊的母體人數本來就不一樣"},{"start":302.864,"end":322.473,"text":"就是男性跟女性這樣 目的不一樣再加上兩邊到底有多少人生小孩子的比例也不一樣對 但是你看我們現在看percentage嘛對不對我們不看那個母數嘛我們看percentage來說也是男性比較低嘛所以我才是說我們今天去調整這些育兒措施其實才有可能"},{"start":324.053,"end":344.224,"text":"本縫去調整才有可能讓男性願意來這是有可能這是有可能往這個方向走所以我才會說是不是可以請你們進一步的來去思考怎麼樣在本縫如果大家收集的意見不支持調整的話那我們要如何來確保我們的育兒友善對於家庭來說是支持的再來下一個問題是說"},{"start":348.089,"end":368.679,"text":"目前也有一些我們看到一些留言我們這邊有收到一些留言就是說他們會其實更擔心的是他如果請了育嬰留庭或是育兒減少工時或是彈性工時他的考積會不會受到影響那他會不會被認為說是因為請了減少工時就未達優良呢"},{"start":372.24,"end":390.466,"text":"這個部分是我們的公務員所擔心的部分那是應該要透過您的想法是說我們應該要來透過這個修法來保障還是說我們還可以做什麼事情讓他們不要有這個擔心呢因為現在看起來就是有很多的潛規則嘛即便你們做了很多的不達還是有很多的潛規則"},{"start":392.264,"end":409.811,"text":"不會列入那個烤雞的一個部分還有彈性減工時我們一些相關的新的新制之後我們來做一個了解好不好這個部分我覺得除了要做宣導之外我覺得宣導不能只有一個公文命令宣導我覺得可能還是要找一些"},{"start":411.191,"end":437.308,"text":"看有什麼樣子的方式讓誘人機關更了解這件事情對他們的好處是什麼為什麼我會這麼說呢其實就是在企業來說有很多的主管們一開始其實也不是那麼支持但是因為他們後來發現其實如果他可以對女性的員工或是對育兒家庭更友善的話是更能夠讓他們對於這個職場是更有相信力的所以我想這部分的好處還是要來做宣導好不好"},{"start":438.871,"end":446.072,"text":"那再來另外一個部分就是說我們到底知不知道有多少人有育兒需求呢我們這份好像是沒有統計對不對"},{"start":447.981,"end":476.649,"text":"我印象中有育兒需求人事總署以前曾經有調查過倒不是育兒需求是那個推動那個職場的那個領導那個托育的一個事情有調查過需求但是應該是以前有做過這個統計但是有沒有每年都做我不清楚沒有因為只有到因為我們對於105年我們現在只有在這個育有3歲以下子女是公務人員統計表好像只有到110年還是人總要"},{"start":478.249,"end":499.923,"text":"說明一下因為據我們所知啦好像是說因為救福法第五條的規定所以已經把這類資料的收集呢再從公務履歷表裡面刪除了我們不可以收集那個多少小孩子對齁但是問題是這樣子我們到這個你了解需求跟你有多少小孩子這應該是兩件事吧"},{"start":500.899,"end":526.449,"text":"對吧這個就是需要調查嘛對不對因為之前告訴我們就是涉及救福法可是應該救福法裡面沒有說你不能做這個調查嘛對不對對吧所以說是不是說因為如果我們都沒有辦法掌握公務人體系裡面到底有多少人正在育兒有多少人可能有這樣子的需求的話我們在做一些友善家庭的規劃的時候我們可能就缺乏一個資料基礎對不對是不是部長您認同嗎"},{"start":527.685,"end":551.429,"text":"有資料是絕對是有幫助啦那是不是可以在三個月內呢來研議一套合法去識別化以政策統計為目的的資料收集機制讓未來的公部門在育兒相關措施的話會有明確的需求盤點會有一個非常理性科學的資料基礎可以嗎跟委員報告因為即使我們要做任何需要的話我們也不能強迫性一定要回答"},{"start":552.094,"end":562.183,"text":"當然當然當然所以我才是說你是不是研議一套合法的嘛合法去識別化以政策統計的這部分三個月內可以這個部分我印象中"},{"start":563.308,"end":587.188,"text":"我來跟總書好好談一下這個事情我印象中以前總書為了要 行政院為了要推那個就是那個在辦公室裡面有開辦那個零到一歲那個空間然後就有調查說你這裡有多少人表示有這個需求曾經有做過這個調查但是有沒有持續做我就不是很清楚了"},{"start":587.968,"end":608.928,"text":"這部分是不是可以了解一下如果沒有的話這應該很快就可以了解出來啦那如果沒有的話是不是三個月內我們就來研議這一套制度呢這個機制好了啦 機制研議這個機制並沒有表我們來看看啦好不好不好意思 再講清楚一點吧部長你的concern是什麼"},{"start":610.051,"end":635.84,"text":"老實說我的考慮還是會涉及到強迫性雖然委員提到說在合法的一個情況但是這有很多的企業都在執行這樣子吧市長勞動部市長對吧有很多企業其實都有可以回覆一下嗎因為很多的企業或是他們可能也會去了解一下大型企業他也會去了解一下現在大家在育兒職場上面在職場上面可以怎麼樣的提供更好的育兒支持是不是有做一些相關的調查呢市長有掌握嗎"},{"start":638.624,"end":655.095,"text":"是 高偉就我們了解其實我們最近這半年多來的宣導其實越來越多企業是表達他們是為了留住這更多的人才願意來提供育兒的一個友善環境的對 可是他們應該也會針對員工的一些需求來去改善他們企業的環境吧"},{"start":656.933,"end":677.262,"text":"對 這個確實是一個我們了解的一個趨勢好 了解 謝謝好 那我想部長抱歉 謝謝次長那我想部長這民間都有很多做法了啦所以我想要來符合合法這件事情應該不是太大的挑戰啦那如果有任何的需要協助的話我想勞動部應該也很願意來針對於救福法來提供一些諮詢嘛 對吧"},{"start":678.143,"end":687.623,"text":"所以是不是就三個月吧好不好不然這樣子的話我們實在是很難去滿足到我們民間同仁的需求啦可以嗎"},{"start":690.473,"end":711.326,"text":"我只是在想說這個事情的從行政管理上的方便性到底是應該是總處來做這個事情還是但是因為烤雞法是你們烤雞的整個這跟烤雞應該沒有特別的關係只是說未來要做這個亦有需求的這個亦有需求的接下來做很多很多措施那這樣你跟人事總處一起來討論好不好你跟人事總處來討論好不好"},{"start":714.648,"end":729.98,"text":"好 謝謝那等一下還有最後一題就是有關於代理制度的部分上次其實我也有詢問過就是說我們現在雖然說有代理家籍有法源可是其實事實上我們也收到非常多的留言都說其實代理制度並沒有接住第一線的重擔那除了是說"},{"start":731.081,"end":752.177,"text":"因為現在我們只有針對於非主管代理主管職務才能夠領取加給至於對於同職等的互代主管互代一般業務代理10天以內的短期代理或是公部門勞工身份的代理需求都不會有代理加給可是我們現在就已經會要產生彈性工時可能會有職代的問題"},{"start":753.018,"end":780.753,"text":"那就會變成是說很多的第一線的同仁就會擔心說我今天請了彈性工時會不會造成我的同事的這個重擔然後又拿不到薪資就會感到心裡很抱歉就不太敢請所以我想問的是說這個關於這個代理職務的部分其實在公務革新力量聯盟它也有提出一些建議就是建立實職的職務代理津貼或補償制度那我不曉得說權序部跟人事總處"},{"start":782.368,"end":790.693,"text":"未來要如何針對友善家庭政策所衍生的代理需求檢討現行的職務代理加緊或者是說來延益替代的人力業務減量呢"},{"start":796.281,"end":817.256,"text":"這個過程我們目前確實有在跟人種討論這個事情但是那個家籍要怎麼樣最後還是要回到人種那邊去不過制度可能如果真的要修家籍辦法當然就涉及到我們兩邊要一起來處理但是制度我的了解是就是說委員可能我這樣講"},{"start":819.192,"end":838.419,"text":"更精確一點政府部門的代理制度本身也是很複雜啦應該這樣但是我們會努力來看說有沒有這個需求大概會怎麼樣一個方式來做一些有我知道因為你們的人員很複雜嘛所以你們相對來說就會更複雜嘛所以這是上次其實也有提也有跟應該是那一位"},{"start":842.502,"end":864.351,"text":"對 全省司司長其實也有回覆了啦所以我現在只是說在這一個部分的話我還是希望得到部長的承諾啦跟人事總處一起來討論我們實際上面要如何讓這些人真的可以拿到一些佳績啦不然對於這其實某種程度也會造成育兒家庭育兒的這個公職人員他會最後還是看得到吃不到因為他不敢用 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝張委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}