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謝謝謝謝主席我們有請全旭部跟勞動部次長好 請部長跟次長"},{"start":26.301,"end":50.988,"text":"好 謝謝我想要那個幸福的辦公室助理要幸福辦公室我是建議說我們的這個不要言會言那麼長這樣子的助理才有辦法好好的去研究法案這才是幸福我們自己在講這些育嬰留庭友善企業職場我自己認為我們立法院也要開始做起首先我先請教一下勞動部次長"},{"start":54.724,"end":72.618,"text":"就是說之前這個大家一直有在關注有很多的勞工團體也都非常關注就是勞保投保薪資的級距要跟勞保過去都等於勞保級距嘛這件事情要打開他的天花板那在一個多月前呢部長是說會花一個月的時間去研議那我不曉得說我們目前有沒有相關的進度呢"},{"start":73.058,"end":89.026,"text":"各位朋友我們這次舊保法的修法已經把這個已經有納入了我們就有一個舊保法新增一個法源可以讓舊保法有自己的投保薪資集聚那授權在法律裡面授權保安部來訂這個投保薪資的分期表"},{"start":89.466,"end":112.845,"text":"了解 好 謝謝那次長可以請回了請全序部 謝謝那我想全序部可以聽見次長可以請回沒關係那全序部我想部長剛剛有聽到就是說我們勞動部是一直以來一直不停的在去改善我們的育兒友善職場那剛剛也把大家長期以來非常關注的一個集聚上線給打開了所以接下來我就想要請教今天其實也非常非常多的委員來關注的有關於這個"},{"start":114.526,"end":139.432,"text":"育嬰留庭的一個比例為什麼會產生這樣子的問題呢我們可以看到在公務機關的申請育嬰留庭的比例呢是從110年到現在長期以來我們可以看到他的男性的比例都是比較少的先不管男女比例我們光公務人員跟民間來比我們長期以來都是比較低的那為什麼今天有很多委員提出了他們認為是本縫的問題我認為這是其中的一個問題沒有錯"},{"start":144.079,"end":172.918,"text":"所以我想就是說不管是在民間或者是國際都有發現說其實應該要讓在照顧生養子女的時候男性女性都應該要同等的來負責嘛那我想問一下就是說今天這個本封剛剛其實我有聽到你回覆這個范雲委員是說我們其實如果本封要調整可能會有一些人持不同的態度跟意見那我想問的是說我們剛剛也有聽到說你會去做一些相關的調查嘛對不對"},{"start":173.678,"end":201.072,"text":"是嗎好像是不一定是調我們會多方在討論這樣一個一個徵詢意見啦應該這樣講好多方徵詢意見那三個月預計剛好是兩個月吧好像會提供那個報告三個月三個月好那這個報告是不是也可以一併的提供到我們辦公室好不好如果報告就一併一併好沒問題那再來就是說那我想問的是說當今天本縫的調整上如果大家的意見非常分歧的話那我們要如何來保障"},{"start":202.032,"end":208.5,"text":"越來越少的育嬰的就是整體人數越來越少的一個育嬰的家庭呢"},{"start":210.492,"end":232.537,"text":"委員老師說我現在沒有辦法很精確回答你這個問題我坦白說 對所以但是這也是我們在三個月裡面好好去想想的事情我覺得這件事情就是希望你們一併來思考就是如果說大家對於本縫有些因為相對來說現在育嬰的人就是少嘛對不對因為生養子女的人少了嘛所以如果綜合來說最大的聲音可能是我反對調整這個本縫嘛對不對"},{"start":234.477,"end":259.813,"text":"因為他會造成一些人的投報薪資他就要投更多的錢進來嘛 對不對所以可能會收到是這樣子的一個結果那我想問的就是說在這樣子的結果收到之後我希望你們要進一步的去思考我們要如何去保障這些育嬰的家庭因為我們整體的目標還是希望可以去創造一個更平等的育兒育嬰的環境嘛育兒的環境 對不對所以這部分是可以承諾的嗎"},{"start":261.44,"end":278.177,"text":"我知道我們的目標就是怎麼樣讓育嬰流挺的簡單講他可能男性比例要提高啦最簡單來講就是這樣啦我不完全是從這個角度是說他的津貼本身的比例"},{"start":279.375,"end":297.375,"text":"是可以再往上提高這個才是我認為我們應該要來想想要努力的因為其實只有因為在從勞保的數字或是勞動部今年提的育嬰留情與日型之後我們可以看到男性的比例在增加男性女性這個如果從統計學上來講的話因為兩邊的母體人數本來就不一樣"},{"start":302.864,"end":322.473,"text":"就是男性跟女性這樣 目的不一樣再加上兩邊到底有多少人生小孩子的比例也不一樣對 但是你看我們現在看percentage嘛對不對我們不看那個母數嘛我們看percentage來說也是男性比較低嘛所以我才是說我們今天去調整這些育兒措施其實才有可能"},{"start":324.053,"end":344.224,"text":"本縫去調整才有可能讓男性願意來這是有可能這是有可能往這個方向走所以我才會說是不是可以請你們進一步的來去思考怎麼樣在本縫如果大家收集的意見不支持調整的話那我們要如何來確保我們的育兒友善對於家庭來說是支持的再來下一個問題是說"},{"start":348.089,"end":368.679,"text":"目前也有一些我們看到一些留言我們這邊有收到一些留言就是說他們會其實更擔心的是他如果請了育嬰留庭或是育兒減少工時或是彈性工時他的考積會不會受到影響那他會不會被認為說是因為請了減少工時就未達優良呢"},{"start":372.24,"end":390.466,"text":"這個部分是我們的公務員所擔心的部分那是應該要透過您的想法是說我們應該要來透過這個修法來保障還是說我們還可以做什麼事情讓他們不要有這個擔心呢因為現在看起來就是有很多的潛規則嘛即便你們做了很多的不達還是有很多的潛規則"},{"start":392.264,"end":409.811,"text":"不會列入那個烤雞的一個部分還有彈性減工時我們一些相關的新的新制之後我們來做一個了解好不好這個部分我覺得除了要做宣導之外我覺得宣導不能只有一個公文命令宣導我覺得可能還是要找一些"},{"start":411.191,"end":437.308,"text":"看有什麼樣子的方式讓誘人機關更了解這件事情對他們的好處是什麼為什麼我會這麼說呢其實就是在企業來說有很多的主管們一開始其實也不是那麼支持但是因為他們後來發現其實如果他可以對女性的員工或是對育兒家庭更友善的話是更能夠讓他們對於這個職場是更有相信力的所以我想這部分的好處還是要來做宣導好不好"},{"start":438.871,"end":446.072,"text":"那再來另外一個部分就是說我們到底知不知道有多少人有育兒需求呢我們這份好像是沒有統計對不對"},{"start":447.981,"end":476.649,"text":"我印象中有育兒需求人事總署以前曾經有調查過倒不是育兒需求是那個推動那個職場的那個領導那個托育的一個事情有調查過需求但是應該是以前有做過這個統計但是有沒有每年都做我不清楚沒有因為只有到因為我們對於105年我們現在只有在這個育有3歲以下子女是公務人員統計表好像只有到110年還是人總要"},{"start":478.249,"end":499.923,"text":"說明一下因為據我們所知啦好像是說因為救福法第五條的規定所以已經把這類資料的收集呢再從公務履歷表裡面刪除了我們不可以收集那個多少小孩子對齁但是問題是這樣子我們到這個你了解需求跟你有多少小孩子這應該是兩件事吧"},{"start":500.899,"end":526.449,"text":"對吧這個就是需要調查嘛對不對因為之前告訴我們就是涉及救福法可是應該救福法裡面沒有說你不能做這個調查嘛對不對對吧所以說是不是說因為如果我們都沒有辦法掌握公務人體系裡面到底有多少人正在育兒有多少人可能有這樣子的需求的話我們在做一些友善家庭的規劃的時候我們可能就缺乏一個資料基礎對不對是不是部長您認同嗎"},{"start":527.685,"end":551.429,"text":"有資料是絕對是有幫助啦那是不是可以在三個月內呢來研議一套合法去識別化以政策統計為目的的資料收集機制讓未來的公部門在育兒相關措施的話會有明確的需求盤點會有一個非常理性科學的資料基礎可以嗎跟委員報告因為即使我們要做任何需要的話我們也不能強迫性一定要回答"},{"start":552.094,"end":562.183,"text":"當然當然當然所以我才是說你是不是研議一套合法的嘛合法去識別化以政策統計的這部分三個月內可以這個部分我印象中"},{"start":563.308,"end":587.188,"text":"我來跟總書好好談一下這個事情我印象中以前總書為了要 行政院為了要推那個就是那個在辦公室裡面有開辦那個零到一歲那個空間然後就有調查說你這裡有多少人表示有這個需求曾經有做過這個調查但是有沒有持續做我就不是很清楚了"},{"start":587.968,"end":608.928,"text":"這部分是不是可以了解一下如果沒有的話這應該很快就可以了解出來啦那如果沒有的話是不是三個月內我們就來研議這一套制度呢這個機制好了啦 機制研議這個機制並沒有表我們來看看啦好不好不好意思 再講清楚一點吧部長你的concern是什麼"},{"start":610.051,"end":635.84,"text":"老實說我的考慮還是會涉及到強迫性雖然委員提到說在合法的一個情況但是這有很多的企業都在執行這樣子吧市長勞動部市長對吧有很多企業其實都有可以回覆一下嗎因為很多的企業或是他們可能也會去了解一下大型企業他也會去了解一下現在大家在育兒職場上面在職場上面可以怎麼樣的提供更好的育兒支持是不是有做一些相關的調查呢市長有掌握嗎"},{"start":638.624,"end":655.095,"text":"是 高偉就我們了解其實我們最近這半年多來的宣導其實越來越多企業是表達他們是為了留住這更多的人才願意來提供育兒的一個友善環境的對 可是他們應該也會針對員工的一些需求來去改善他們企業的環境吧"},{"start":656.933,"end":677.262,"text":"對 這個確實是一個我們了解的一個趨勢好 了解 謝謝好 那我想部長抱歉 謝謝次長那我想部長這民間都有很多做法了啦所以我想要來符合合法這件事情應該不是太大的挑戰啦那如果有任何的需要協助的話我想勞動部應該也很願意來針對於救福法來提供一些諮詢嘛 對吧"},{"start":678.143,"end":687.623,"text":"所以是不是就三個月吧好不好不然這樣子的話我們實在是很難去滿足到我們民間同仁的需求啦可以嗎"},{"start":690.473,"end":711.326,"text":"我只是在想說這個事情的從行政管理上的方便性到底是應該是總處來做這個事情還是但是因為烤雞法是你們烤雞的整個這跟烤雞應該沒有特別的關係只是說未來要做這個亦有需求的這個亦有需求的接下來做很多很多措施那這樣你跟人事總處一起來討論好不好你跟人事總處來討論好不好"},{"start":714.648,"end":729.98,"text":"好 謝謝那等一下還有最後一題就是有關於代理制度的部分上次其實我也有詢問過就是說我們現在雖然說有代理家籍有法源可是其實事實上我們也收到非常多的留言都說其實代理制度並沒有接住第一線的重擔那除了是說"},{"start":731.081,"end":752.177,"text":"因為現在我們只有針對於非主管代理主管職務才能夠領取加給至於對於同職等的互代主管互代一般業務代理10天以內的短期代理或是公部門勞工身份的代理需求都不會有代理加給可是我們現在就已經會要產生彈性工時可能會有職代的問題"},{"start":753.018,"end":780.753,"text":"那就會變成是說很多的第一線的同仁就會擔心說我今天請了彈性工時會不會造成我的同事的這個重擔然後又拿不到薪資就會感到心裡很抱歉就不太敢請所以我想問的是說這個關於這個代理職務的部分其實在公務革新力量聯盟它也有提出一些建議就是建立實職的職務代理津貼或補償制度那我不曉得說權序部跟人事總處"},{"start":782.368,"end":790.693,"text":"未來要如何針對友善家庭政策所衍生的代理需求檢討現行的職務代理加緊或者是說來延益替代的人力業務減量呢"},{"start":796.281,"end":817.256,"text":"這個過程我們目前確實有在跟人種討論這個事情但是那個家籍要怎麼樣最後還是要回到人種那邊去不過制度可能如果真的要修家籍辦法當然就涉及到我們兩邊要一起來處理但是制度我的了解是就是說委員可能我這樣講"},{"start":819.192,"end":838.419,"text":"更精確一點政府部門的代理制度本身也是很複雜啦應該這樣但是我們會努力來看說有沒有這個需求大概會怎麼樣一個方式來做一些有我知道因為你們的人員很複雜嘛所以你們相對來說就會更複雜嘛所以這是上次其實也有提也有跟應該是那一位"},{"start":842.502,"end":864.351,"text":"對 全省司司長其實也有回覆了啦所以我現在只是說在這一個部分的話我還是希望得到部長的承諾啦跟人事總處一起來討論我們實際上面要如何讓這些人真的可以拿到一些佳績啦不然對於這其實某種程度也會造成育兒家庭育兒的這個公職人員他會最後還是看得到吃不到因為他不敢用 好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝張委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:45.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:45.777000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:46.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:50.020000+08:00","text":"我們有請銓敘部跟勞動部次長。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:50.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:51.161000+08:00","text":"好，請部長跟次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:51.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:57.301000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:57.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:50:57.961000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:50:57.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:51:12.005000+08:00","text":"我想，要幸福辦公室，我是建議不要延會延那麼長，這樣子助理才有辦法好好地去研究法案，這才是幸福。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:51:12.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:51:19.027000+08:00","text":"我們自己在講這些育嬰留停、友善企業職場，我自己認為我們立法院也要開始做起。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:51:20.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:51:34.271000+08:00","text":"首先，我先請教一下勞動部次長，之前大家一直有在關注，有很多勞工團體也都非常關注，就是勞保投保薪資級距，過去都等於勞保級距？對。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:51:34.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:51:43.598000+08:00","text":"這件事情要打開它的天花板，在一個多月前，部長是說會花一個月的時間去研議，我不曉得目前有沒有相關的進度呢？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"李次長健鴻","start":"2026-06-24T10:51:44.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:00.006000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們這次就保法的修法已經有納入了，就保法新增一個法源，可以讓就保法有自己的投保薪資級距，在法律面授權勞動部訂投保薪資的分級表。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:00.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:02.167000+08:00","text":"了解，謝謝，次長可以請回了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:02.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:04.449000+08:00","text":"請銓敘部，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:07.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:26.846000+08:00","text":"我想部長剛剛有聽到，勞動部一直以來不停地在改善我們的育兒友善職場，也把大家長期以來非常關注的級距上限給打開了，所以接下來我就想要請教，今天其實也有非常非常多委員關注有關育嬰留停的比例。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:29.087000+08:00","text":"為什麼會產生這樣子的問題呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:29.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:41.110000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到在公務機關申請育嬰留停的比例從110年到現在，長期以來男性的比例都是比較少的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:41.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:46.571000+08:00","text":"先不管男女比例，光公務人員跟民間來比，長期以來都是比較低的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:47.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:49.032000+08:00","text":"為什麼今天有很多委員提出了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:49.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:50.432000+08:00","text":"他們認為是本俸的問題，我認為這是其中的一個問題，沒有錯。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:56.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:06.426000+08:00","text":"不管是在民間或者是國際都有發現，其實在照顧生養子女的時候，男性、女性都應該要同等來負責。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:07.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:19.255000+08:00","text":"我想問一下，今天這個本俸……其實我剛剛有聽到你回復范雲委員說，如果本俸要調整，可能會有一些人持不同的態度跟意見。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:19.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.138000+08:00","text":"我想問的是，剛剛也有聽到你會去做一些相關的調查，對不對？是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.438000+08:00","text":"好像是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:30.581000+08:00","text":"不一定是調查，我們會多方再討論……徵詢意見，應該這樣講。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:30.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:31.942000+08:00","text":"好，多方徵詢意見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:33.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:34.083000+08:00","text":"預計剛好是兩個月吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:34.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:35.503000+08:00","text":"好像會提供那個報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:35.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:36.024000+08:00","text":"三個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:36.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:39.085000+08:00","text":"好，這個報告是不是也可以一併提供到我們辦公室？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:39.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:39.405000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:40.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:40.566000+08:00","text":"好，一併。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:41.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:41.907000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:42.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:59.480000+08:00","text":"再來，我想問的是，當今天本俸的調整上，如果大家意見非常分歧的話，我們要如何保障整體人數越來越少的育嬰家庭呢？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:01.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:09.614000+08:00","text":"委員，老實說我現在沒有辦法很精確回答你這個問題，我坦白說，這也是我們在三個月要好好去想一想的事情。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:09.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:11.774000+08:00","text":"我覺得這件事情就是希望你們一併思考……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:11.774000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:12.994000+08:00","text":"因為主要……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:12.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:17.575000+08:00","text":"大家對於本俸有些……相對來說，現在育嬰的人就是少，對不對？對。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:17.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:23.537000+08:00","text":"因為生養子女的人少了，所以如果綜合來說，最大的聲音可能是我反對調整本俸，對不對？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:25.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:29.320000+08:00","text":"因為會造成一些人的投保薪資……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:29.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:30.320000+08:00","text":"因為他要繳更多錢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:29.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:31.401000+08:00","text":"對，他就要投更多的錢進來，對不對？對。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:31.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:33.782000+08:00","text":"所以可能會收到這樣子的一個結果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:34.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:49.012000+08:00","text":"我想問的就是，在收到這樣的結果之後，我希望你們要進一步去思考，我們要如何保障這些育嬰的家庭，因為我們整體的目標還是希望可以去創造一個更平等育嬰的環境、育兒的環境。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:49.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:50.813000+08:00","text":"所以這部分是可以承諾的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:52.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:00.468000+08:00","text":"我知道我們的目標，就是怎麼樣讓育嬰留停的……簡單講可能……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:00.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:03.151000+08:00","text":"男性比例要提高，最簡單來講就是這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:05.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:16.041000+08:00","text":"我不完全是從這個角度，而是說津貼本身的比例可以再往上提高，這個才是我認為我們應該要想想用什麼方法……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:16.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:25.351000+08:00","text":"因為從勞保的數字，或是勞動部今年提的育嬰留停以「日」請之後，我們可以看到男性的比例在增加。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:26.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:36.665000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，男性、女性如果從統計學上來講，因為兩邊的母體人數本來就不一樣，就是男性跟女性的母數不一樣……","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:36.665000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:37.665000+08:00","text":"我知道，可是今天如果你看……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:36.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:41.627000+08:00","text":"再加上，兩邊到底有多少人生小孩子的比例也不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:41.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:57.675000+08:00","text":"對，但是我們現在看percentage，我們不看那個母數，我們看percentage來說也是男性比較低，所以我才說，我們今天去調整這些育兒措施，去調整本俸才有可能讓男性願意來……","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:57.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:58.155000+08:00","text":"這是有可能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:00.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:14.643000+08:00","text":"對吧，所以我才會說，是不是可以請你們進一步去思考，怎麼樣在本俸……如果大家蒐集的意見不支持調整的話，我們要如何確保育兒友善，對於家庭來說是支持的，好不好？好。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:15.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:36.577000+08:00","text":"再來，下一個問題，目前我們這邊有收到一些留言，其實他們更擔心的是，如果請了育嬰留停、育兒減少工時或是彈性工時，他的考績會不會受到影響？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:37.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:39.658000+08:00","text":"會不會被認為是因為請了減少工時就未達優良呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:43.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:45.781000+08:00","text":"這個是我們公務員所擔心的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:48.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:56.724000+08:00","text":"您的想法是說，我們應該要透過修法來保障，還是我們還可以做什麼事情，讓他們不要有這個擔心呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:56.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:01.466000+08:00","text":"因為現在看起來就是有很多的潛規則，即便你們做了很多的布達，還是有很多的潛規則，導致……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:03.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:06.245000+08:00","text":"不會列入考績的部分。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:07.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:10.287000+08:00","text":"對，我說的是還有彈性減工時，我們一些相關的新制之後。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:11.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:13.468000+08:00","text":"對，我們來做一個了解，好不好？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:13.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:27.995000+08:00","text":"這個部分，除了要宣導之外，我覺得宣導不能只有一個公文命令宣導，可能還是要找一些……看用什麼樣子的方式讓用人機關更了解，這件事情對他們的好處是什麼？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:27.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:28.856000+08:00","text":"為什麼我會這麼說呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:30.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:48.288000+08:00","text":"在企業來說，有很多的主管們一開始其實也不是那麼支持，但是因為他們後來發現，如果他可以對女性員工，或是對育兒家庭更友善的話，是能夠讓他們對於這個職場更有向心力的，所以我想這部分的好處還是要宣導，好不好？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:50.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:54.424000+08:00","text":"另外一個部分，我們到底知不知道有多少人有育兒需求呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:56.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:57.072000+08:00","text":"這個部分好像沒有統計，對不對？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:58.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:17.826000+08:00","text":"我印象關於有育兒需求，人事總處以前曾經有調查過，倒不是育兒需求，是推動職場0歲到……托育的事情有調查過需求，應該是以前有做過這個統計，但是有沒有每年都做，我不清楚。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:17.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:29.509000+08:00","text":"沒有，因為我們對於105年……我們現在只有在育有三歲以下子女之公務人員統計表，好像只有到110年，還是人總要說明一下？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:29.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:40.096000+08:00","text":"因為據我們索資，好像是因為就服法第五條的規定，所以已經把這類資料的蒐集從公務人員履歷表裡面刪除了。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:40.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:43.638000+08:00","text":"確實，我們不可以蒐集同仁有多少小孩子。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:44.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:51.899000+08:00","text":"對喔，但是問題是，你去了解需求跟有多少小孩子，這應該是兩件事吧？對吧？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:52.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:54.580000+08:00","text":"這個就是需要調查嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:54.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:01.183000+08:00","text":"因為之前告訴我們涉及就服法，可是就服法裡面應該沒有規定你不能做這個調查，對吧？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:01.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:15.468000+08:00","text":"所以是不是……因為如果我們都沒有辦法掌握公務人員體系裡面，到底有多少人正在育兒、有多少人可能有這樣子的需求的話，我們在做一些友善家庭規劃的時候，可能就缺乏一個資料基礎。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:17.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:17.449000+08:00","text":"部長，你認同嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:18.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:20.066000+08:00","text":"當然有資料絕對是有幫助。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:20.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:35.462000+08:00","text":"對，是不是可以在三個月內研議一套合法去識別化，以政策統計為目的的資料蒐集機制，讓公部門在未來育兒相關措施會有明確的需求盤點，會有一個非常理性、科學的資料基礎？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:35.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:36.763000+08:00","text":"可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:36.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:43.094000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，即使我們要做任何需求調查，我們也不能強迫一定要回答。當然！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:43.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:49.940000+08:00","text":"所以我才說，你們是不是研議一套合法去識別化、以政策統計的？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:50.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:51.542000+08:00","text":"這部分三個月內可以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:51.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:52.542000+08:00","text":"我們來想想看。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:52.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:55.809000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我印象中……我來跟總處好好談一下這個事情。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:55.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:05.357000+08:00","text":"我印象中以前行政院為了要推在辦公室裡面開辦0歲到1歲的空間……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:06.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:07.979000+08:00","text":"育兒空間。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:07.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:14.845000+08:00","text":"然後就有調查你這裡有多少人表示有此需求，曾經有做過這個調查。對。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:15.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:18.168000+08:00","text":"但是有沒有持續做，我就不是很清楚了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:18.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:20.230000+08:00","text":"好，這部分是不是可以了解一下？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:22.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:23.613000+08:00","text":"這應該很快就可以了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:24.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:28.937000+08:00","text":"如果沒有的話，是不是你們三個月內研議這一套制度呢？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:29.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:29.998000+08:00","text":"改成機制好了。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:33.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:36.384000+08:00","text":"研議這個機制並不表……我們來看看，好不好？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:36.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:37.384000+08:00","text":"我會跟委員報告這個事情。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:37.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:38.384000+08:00","text":"什麼意思？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:36.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:38.947000+08:00","text":"不好意思，可以再講清楚一點嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:39.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:39.928000+08:00","text":"部長，你的concern是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:41.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:46.273000+08:00","text":"老實說，我的concern還是會涉及到強迫性，雖然委員有提到在合法的情況之下去調查。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:46.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:49.974000+08:00","text":"但是有很多企業都在執行，勞動部次長，對吧？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:50.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:52.935000+08:00","text":"其實很多企業都有，您可以回復一下嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:52.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:05.840000+08:00","text":"因為很多大型企業也會去了解目前在職場上面可以怎麼樣提供更好的育兒支持，這部分是不是有做一些相關的調查呢？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:06.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:06.840000+08:00","text":"次長有掌握嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李次長健鴻","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:11.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:20.791000+08:00","text":"從我們最近這半年多來的宣導，就我們了解，其實越來越多企業表達他們為了留住更多人才，願意提供育兒的友善環境。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:21.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:26.075000+08:00","text":"對，可是他們應該也會針對員工的一些需求來改善企業環境吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長健鴻","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:27.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:29.534000+08:00","text":"對，這確實是我們了解的一個趨勢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:29.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:30.675000+08:00","text":"了解，謝謝次長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:32.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:41.739000+08:00","text":"部長，民間都有很多做法了，所以要符合合法這件事情，我想應該不是太大的挑戰。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:42.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:47.922000+08:00","text":"如果有需要任何協助的話，勞動部應該也很願意針對就服法提供一些諮詢。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:49.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:51.007000+08:00","text":"所以是不是三個月，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:52.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:57.581000+08:00","text":"不然的話，我們實在是很難滿足民間同仁的需求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:01.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:09.558000+08:00","text":"我只是在想這個事情從行政管理上的方便性，到底應該是總處來做還是銓敘部？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:10.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:11.739000+08:00","text":"但是考績法是你們……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:12.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:20.165000+08:00","text":"這跟考績應該沒有特別的關係，只是說未來要做育兒需求的話，接下來要做很多措施。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:20.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:26.329000+08:00","text":"你跟人事總處一起來討論，好不好？好。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:26.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:28.971000+08:00","text":"等一下還有最後一題，就是有關於代理制度的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:29.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:58.714000+08:00","text":"其實上次我也有詢問過，我們現在雖然有代理加給、有法源，可是事實上我們收到非常多的留言，都說代理制度並沒有接住第一線的重擔，因為現在只有針對非主管代理主管職務才能夠領取加給；至於同職等互代、主管互代、一般業務代理、十天以內的短期代理或是公部門勞工身分的代理需求，都不會有代理加給。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:59.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:15.004000+08:00","text":"因為目前已經要產生彈性工時，可能會有職代的問題，就會變成很多第一線的同仁擔心，今天請彈性工時會不會造成同事的重擔，然後又拿不到薪資？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:15.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:17.946000+08:00","text":"感到心裡很抱歉，就不太敢請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:20.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:29.492000+08:00","text":"關於代理職務的部分，公務革新力量聯盟也有提出一些建議，就是建立實質的職務代理津貼或補償制度。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:30.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:41.593000+08:00","text":"我不曉得銓敘部跟人事總處未來要如何針對友善家庭政策衍生的代理需求，檢討現行的職務代理加給，或者是研議替代的人力業務減量？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:47.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:00.551000+08:00","text":"關於這個過程，我們目前確實有跟人總討論這個事情，但是加給要怎麼樣處理，最後還是要回到人總，不過制度的話，如果真的要修加給辦法，當然就涉及到我們兩邊要一起來處理。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:00.551000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:01.551000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:00.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:19.996000+08:00","text":"但是制度部分，就我的了解是，委員可能……我講得更精確一點，政府部門的代理制度本身也是很複雜，應該是這樣講，但是我們會努力看看，有這個需求大概採怎麼樣的方式討論。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:21.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:35.363000+08:00","text":"我知道，因為你們的人員很複雜，所以相對來說就會更複雜，上次銓審司司長其實也有回復了。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:35.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:45.307000+08:00","text":"我現在只是說在這部分的話，還是希望得到部長的承諾，跟人事總處一起討論，要如何讓這些人實際上真的可以拿到一些加給，好嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:46.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:55.131000+08:00","text":"因為他不敢用，其實某種程度也會造成育兒的公職人員家庭最後還是看得到吃不到。謝謝。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:55.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:55.351000+08:00","text":"謝謝張委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:55.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:01.565286+08:00","text":"接下來鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:01.865286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:03.865286+08:00","text":"有請許宇甄委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":678,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時50分）謝謝主席。我們有請銓敘部跟勞動部次長。"],["主席：好，請部長跟次長。"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。我想，要幸福辦公室，我是建議不要延會延那麼長，這樣子助理才有辦法好好地去研究法案，這才是幸福。我們自己在講這些育嬰留停、友善企業職場，我自己認為我們立法院也要開始做起。","首先，我先請教一下勞動部次長，之前大家一直有在關注，有很多勞工團體也都非常關注，就是勞保投保薪資級距，過去都等於勞保級距？"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["張委員雅琳：這件事情要打開它的天花板，在一個多月前，部長是說會花一個月的時間去研議，我不曉得目前有沒有相關的進度呢？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員報告，我們這次就保法的修法已經有納入了，就保法新增一個法源，可以讓就保法有自己的投保薪資級距，在法律面授權勞動部訂投保薪資的分級表。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，謝謝，次長可以請回了。","請銓敘部，謝謝。我想部長剛剛有聽到，勞動部一直以來不停地在改善我們的育兒友善職場，也把大家長期以來非常關注的級距上限給打開了，所以接下來我就想要請教，今天其實也有非常非常多委員關注有關育嬰留停的比例。為什麼會產生這樣子的問題呢？我們可以看到在公務機關申請育嬰留停的比例從110年到現在，長期以來男性的比例都是比較少的。先不管男女比例，光公務人員跟民間來比，長期以來都是比較低的。為什麼今天有很多委員提出了？他們認為是本俸的問題，我認為這是其中的一個問題，沒有錯。不管是在民間或者是國際都有發現，其實在照顧生養子女的時候，男性、女性都應該要同等來負責。我想問一下，今天這個本俸……其實我剛剛有聽到你回復范雲委員說，如果本俸要調整，可能會有一些人持不同的態度跟意見。我想問的是，剛剛也有聽到你會去做一些相關的調查，對不對？是嗎？好像是……"],["施部長能傑：不一定是調查，我們會多方再討論……徵詢意見，應該這樣講。"],["張委員雅琳：好，多方徵詢意見。預計剛好是兩個月吧？好像會提供那個報告。"],["施部長能傑：三個月。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個報告是不是也可以一併提供到我們辦公室？好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，一併。"],["張委員雅琳：沒問題。再來，我想問的是，當今天本俸的調整上，如果大家意見非常分歧的話，我們要如何保障整體人數越來越少的育嬰家庭呢？"],["施部長能傑：委員，老實說我現在沒有辦法很精確回答你這個問題，我坦白說，這也是我們在三個月要好好去想一想的事情。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得這件事情就是希望你們一併思考……"],["施部長能傑：因為主要……"],["張委員雅琳：大家對於本俸有些……相對來說，現在育嬰的人就是少，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["張委員雅琳：因為生養子女的人少了，所以如果綜合來說，最大的聲音可能是我反對調整本俸，對不對？因為會造成一些人的投保薪資……"],["施部長能傑：因為他要繳更多錢。"],["張委員雅琳：對，他就要投更多的錢進來，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["張委員雅琳：所以可能會收到這樣子的一個結果。我想問的就是，在收到這樣的結果之後，我希望你們要進一步去思考，我們要如何保障這些育嬰的家庭，因為我們整體的目標還是希望可以去創造一個更平等育嬰的環境、育兒的環境。所以這部分是可以承諾的嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我知道我們的目標，就是怎麼樣讓育嬰留停的……簡單講可能……"],["張委員雅琳：男性比例要提高，最簡單來講就是這樣啦！"],["施部長能傑：我不完全是從這個角度，而是說津貼本身的比例可以再往上提高，這個才是我認為我們應該要想想用什麼方法……"],["張委員雅琳：因為從勞保的數字，或是勞動部今年提的育嬰留停以「日」請之後，我們可以看到男性的比例在增加。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，男性、女性如果從統計學上來講，因為兩邊的母體人數本來就不一樣，就是男性跟女性的母數不一樣……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，可是今天如果你看……"],["施部長能傑：再加上，兩邊到底有多少人生小孩子的比例也不一樣。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我們現在看percentage，我們不看那個母數，我們看percentage來說也是男性比較低，所以我才說，我們今天去調整這些育兒措施，去調整本俸才有可能讓男性願意來……"],["施部長能傑：這是有可能。"],["張委員雅琳：對吧，所以我才會說，是不是可以請你們進一步去思考，怎麼樣在本俸……如果大家蒐集的意見不支持調整的話，我們要如何確保育兒友善，對於家庭來說是支持的，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，下一個問題，目前我們這邊有收到一些留言，其實他們更擔心的是，如果請了育嬰留停、育兒減少工時或是彈性工時，他的考績會不會受到影響？會不會被認為是因為請了減少工時就未達優良呢？這個是我們公務員所擔心的部分。您的想法是說，我們應該要透過修法來保障，還是我們還可以做什麼事情，讓他們不要有這個擔心呢？因為現在看起來就是有很多的潛規則，即便你們做了很多的布達，還是有很多的潛規則，導致……"],["施部長能傑：不會列入考績的部分。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我說的是還有彈性減工時，我們一些相關的新制之後。"],["施部長能傑：對，我們來做一個了解，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分，除了要宣導之外，我覺得宣導不能只有一個公文命令宣導，可能還是要找一些……看用什麼樣子的方式讓用人機關更了解，這件事情對他們的好處是什麼？為什麼我會這麼說呢？在企業來說，有很多的主管們一開始其實也不是那麼支持，但是因為他們後來發現，如果他可以對女性員工，或是對育兒家庭更友善的話，是能夠讓他們對於這個職場更有向心力的，所以我想這部分的好處還是要宣導，好不好？","另外一個部分，我們到底知不知道有多少人有育兒需求呢？這個部分好像沒有統計，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：我印象關於有育兒需求，人事總處以前曾經有調查過，倒不是育兒需求，是推動職場0歲到……托育的事情有調查過需求，應該是以前有做過這個統計，但是有沒有每年都做，我不清楚。"],["張委員雅琳：沒有，因為我們對於105年……我們現在只有在育有三歲以下子女之公務人員統計表，好像只有到110年，還是人總要說明一下？因為據我們索資，好像是因為就服法第五條的規定，所以已經把這類資料的蒐集從公務人員履歷表裡面刪除了。"],["施部長能傑：確實，我們不可以蒐集同仁有多少小孩子。"],["張委員雅琳：對喔，但是問題是，你去了解需求跟有多少小孩子，這應該是兩件事吧？對吧？這個就是需要調查嘛，對不對？因為之前告訴我們涉及就服法，可是就服法裡面應該沒有規定你不能做這個調查，對吧？所以是不是……因為如果我們都沒有辦法掌握公務人員體系裡面，到底有多少人正在育兒、有多少人可能有這樣子的需求的話，我們在做一些友善家庭規劃的時候，可能就缺乏一個資料基礎。部長，你認同嗎？"],["施部長能傑：當然有資料絕對是有幫助。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是不是可以在三個月內研議一套合法去識別化，以政策統計為目的的資料蒐集機制，讓公部門在未來育兒相關措施會有明確的需求盤點，會有一個非常理性、科學的資料基礎？可以嗎？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，即使我們要做任何需求調查，我們也不能強迫一定要回答。"],["張委員雅琳：當然！所以我才說，你們是不是研議一套合法去識別化、以政策統計的？這部分三個月內可以……"],["施部長能傑：我們來想想看。這個部分，我印象中……我來跟總處好好談一下這個事情。我印象中以前行政院為了要推在辦公室裡面開辦0歲到1歲的空間……"],["張委員雅琳：育兒空間。"],["施部長能傑：然後就有調查你這裡有多少人表示有此需求，曾經有做過這個調查。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["施部長能傑：但是有沒有持續做，我就不是很清楚了。"],["張委員雅琳：好，這部分是不是可以了解一下？這應該很快就可以了解。如果沒有的話，是不是你們三個月內研議這一套制度呢？改成機制好了。"],["施部長能傑：研議這個機制並不表……我們來看看，好不好？我會跟委員報告這個事情。"],["張委員雅琳：什麼意思？不好意思，可以再講清楚一點嗎？部長，你的concern是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：老實說，我的concern還是會涉及到強迫性，雖然委員有提到在合法的情況之下去調查。"],["張委員雅琳：但是有很多企業都在執行，勞動部次長，對吧？其實很多企業都有，您可以回復一下嗎？因為很多大型企業也會去了解目前在職場上面可以怎麼樣提供更好的育兒支持，這部分是不是有做一些相關的調查呢？次長有掌握嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：從我們最近這半年多來的宣導，就我們了解，其實越來越多企業表達他們為了留住更多人才，願意提供育兒的友善環境。"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是他們應該也會針對員工的一些需求來改善企業環境吧？"],["李次長健鴻：對，這確實是我們了解的一個趨勢。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，謝謝次長。部長，民間都有很多做法了，所以要符合合法這件事情，我想應該不是太大的挑戰。如果有需要任何協助的話，勞動部應該也很願意針對就服法提供一些諮詢。所以是不是三個月，好不好？不然的話，我們實在是很難滿足民間同仁的需求。"],["施部長能傑：我只是在想這個事情從行政管理上的方便性，到底應該是總處來做還是銓敘部？"],["張委員雅琳：但是考績法是你們……"],["施部長能傑：這跟考績應該沒有特別的關係，只是說未來要做育兒需求的話，接下來要做很多措施。"],["張委員雅琳：你跟人事總處一起來討論，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。等一下還有最後一題，就是有關於代理制度的部分。其實上次我也有詢問過，我們現在雖然有代理加給、有法源，可是事實上我們收到非常多的留言，都說代理制度並沒有接住第一線的重擔，因為現在只有針對非主管代理主管職務才能夠領取加給；至於同職等互代、主管互代、一般業務代理、十天以內的短期代理或是公部門勞工身分的代理需求，都不會有代理加給。","因為目前已經要產生彈性工時，可能會有職代的問題，就會變成很多第一線的同仁擔心，今天請彈性工時會不會造成同事的重擔，然後又拿不到薪資？感到心裡很抱歉，就不太敢請。關於代理職務的部分，公務革新力量聯盟也有提出一些建議，就是建立實質的職務代理津貼或補償制度。我不曉得銓敘部跟人事總處未來要如何針對友善家庭政策衍生的代理需求，檢討現行的職務代理加給，或者是研議替代的人力業務減量？"],["施部長能傑：關於這個過程，我們目前確實有跟人總討論這個事情，但是加給要怎麼樣處理，最後還是要回到人總，不過制度的話，如果真的要修加給辦法，當然就涉及到我們兩邊要一起來處理。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以這個部分……"],["施部長能傑：但是制度部分，就我的了解是，委員可能……我講得更精確一點，政府部門的代理制度本身也是很複雜，應該是這樣講，但是我們會努力看看，有這個需求大概採怎麼樣的方式討論。"],["張委員雅琳：我知道，因為你們的人員很複雜，所以相對來說就會更複雜，上次銓審司司長其實也有回復了。我現在只是說在這部分的話，還是希望得到部長的承諾，跟人事總處一起討論，要如何讓這些人實際上真的可以拿到一些加給，好嗎？因為他不敢用，其實某種程度也會造成育兒的公職人員家庭最後還是看得到吃不到。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。","接下來鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","有請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-20","speakers":["翁曉玲","王安祥","林沛祥","陳昭姿","沈發惠","范雲","莊瑞雄","張雅琳","許宇甄","洪孟楷","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請考試院秘書長、銓敘部部長、行政院人事行政總處、教育部、勞動部針對「我國育嬰留\n職停薪實施成效與擴大育嬰津貼政策」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、併案審查(一)委員羅智強\n等19人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員黃健豪等18人擬具「公教\n人員保險法第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「公教人員保險法第十二\n條及第三十五條條文修正草案」案、(四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公教人員保險法部分條文修正草\n案」案、(五)委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「公教人員保險法第三十五條及第五十一條條文修正草案」\n案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155501_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}