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有請次長好 次長好 因為我們反覆聽到次長講說你們在那個消失會議的改革之後呢有了初步的成效"},{"start":20.376,"end":45.491,"text":"那我們來看一下 因為你是跟去年的1到4月來比嘛投訴的案件有下降另外就是投訴的案件被送到消失會議的比例也下降去年同期是82% 現在剩22%今年不受理案件有增加但是也是有一部分的投訴案件進到考核案件但我還是要提醒次長我覺得這樣的數字其實是有一個盲點第一個"},{"start":46.618,"end":64.737,"text":"就因為最近大家很重視校事會議這個議題然後很關心老師所以當然在這段期間我覺得爛數一定是會減少啦因為現在是社會關注嘛第二件事情啊這是一個雞生蛋蛋生雞的問題啊就像你沒有開車就不會車禍一樣因為現在的老師都防御式教學嘛不太敢管嘛"},{"start":65.017,"end":81.284,"text":"那很多之前的爛數都是因為老師管教學生學生心生不滿嘛用報復的心態去投訴那現在老師不管了不管當然就不會被報復所以投訴案件自然就下降所以我覺得教室會議不能夠以這樣的數據自瞞我覺得還是要有很多可以精進的地方"},{"start":81.784,"end":110.246,"text":"那我以下我就針對幾件事情我來跟你討論一下第一我覺得校事會議調查時間實在太久了它的規定是說兩個月然後得延長兩個月最多是四個月可是這只是那個字面上的時間實際上校事會議什麼時候要開始調查以及報告什麼時候寫出來這是沒有一定的時間所以如果學校要拖的話它是可以拖非常久拖到半年一年都有可能那這半年一年就是對老師來說造成極大的煎熬"},{"start":111.328,"end":131.705,"text":"那我是不能認同人本基金會執行長講的什麼叫做老師就算老師被調查最後即便是爛訴也不會對老師造成任何的傷害所以叫老師不要去影響原本的親師關係這什麼話任何老師被調查越久他受到煎熬是越多即便是最後"},{"start":132.646,"end":155.197,"text":"還他清白了 過程當中受到很大的傷害如果老師撐不住 留著停薪啊所以這個時間的部分一定要縮短我不太懂為什麼要拖到這麼長如果調查四個月半年一年都調查不出個結果代表就是沒有事啊是硬要給人家羅之於罪嗎有事就有事 沒事就沒事為什麼要這麼久這個市長這可不可以就時間上"},{"start":157.043,"end":185.321,"text":"這樣快一點我們可以來檢討啦就來檢討你覺得有需要到那麼久嗎時間上可以來檢討現在那個整個那個兩個月加兩個月的時間你去調查一下為什麼需要這麼久好不好因為如果真的就沒有什麼事有這麼複雜的案件嗎要調查到有的二到四個月然後甚至拖到一年我不認為是這樣第二個可能您去檢討一下好不好盡量縮短第二個"},{"start":186.081,"end":203.438,"text":"有可能是因為這個委員嘛都要大家喬彼此開會的時間嘛對不對然後喬來喬去的然後再來就是這個委員當因為這個委員是不是有出席費啊你們搞一個校事會議就我了解好像委員出席費是兩千五嘛"},{"start":204.119,"end":231.806,"text":"然後可以開三次嘛對外聘最多開三次嘛對不對寫報告的話一千字是一千一百塊到一千六百塊嘛另外如果還有這個逐字稿的費用聽打每分鐘不知道多少錢嘛那如果是外聘委員是外縣市的話還要提供住宿費、交通費、膳食費所以一場校智會議下來要搞多少錢大概要看情況嘛平均嘛要不要十萬塊"},{"start":234.13,"end":250.112,"text":"應該是不用了應該是不用了你查一下好不好好幾萬塊一定要費用了所以有沒有可能是因為這個反正我就慢慢來我會開越多我就初期費用可以領越多有沒有可能是這個狀況"},{"start":251.869,"end":267.279,"text":"所以我的意思是說你去了解一下我認為不需要拖到那麼久然後再一點我看到你們講的分流機制是會先從人才庫裡面挑四個人來召開會議來決定案件要不要進入校事會議那請問一下人才庫裡面到底有哪些人"},{"start":268.966,"end":291.054,"text":"這個為什麼不能公開經過訓練的啦有哪些人會公開他大概也有教師有教育人員法律人員 輔導就像譬如說我們行政院工程會他會有一個評審委員的人才庫嘛其實有什麼人大家都知道那為什麼這個校智會議人才庫不能公開"},{"start":292.356,"end":309.03,"text":"還有就是每一次的校事會議到底是哪一些人參與調查或者是寫報告的是誰我覺得可以公開吧案件你可以不用講內容為什麼因為它牽涉到兒童嘛可能不方便去談內容可是哪些人參與我覺得必須要公開啊"},{"start":309.77,"end":328.412,"text":"因為否則的話有一些報告有一些老師很不爽他會把那個報告PO上網大家看到都覺得很離譜啊市長上次應該市長是跟您還是跟哪一位講最後有一個有一個老師被學生捅肛門啊然後對捅完肛門之後然後後來他可能推人的學生吧就被家長"},{"start":329.713,"end":351.192,"text":"投訴嘛那投訴之後最後報告的結果是說就是確定學生確實是有揪人去捅他肛門但是老師也不能夠推學生類似這樣那這個報告到底是誰寫的或者是哪些人參與人可以吧內容可以不要公開啦人是誰我覺得讓大家知道一下嘛好不好"},{"start":352.196,"end":367.867,"text":"好不好 不然的話有一些委員到底他夠不夠專業或這個委員他有沒有什麼狹隘的角度像我們人本基金會這種仇私的有沒有在這裡面 這可以公開啊好不好 這個也研究一下好不好"},{"start":369.412,"end":394.168,"text":"有公開 每一個會議是誰調查去哪裡查不是調查不是調查人才庫是公開 人才問快嗎但是每一個案件是誰寫的然後哪些人參與調查我覺得這可以公開這也不會有什麼影響然後還有一個剛剛我講了每一個校職會議假設他爛訴國家付出非常多的成本老師也付出很多成本但爛訴的人完全不用付任何的成本"},{"start":396.075,"end":424.75,"text":"所以這就是變相鼓勵爛訴我聽到太多爛訴都是報復比如說他可能檢舉老師可能兩年前的一個性平案件為什麼忽然間檢舉因為老師可能最近得罪他了他就會去講兩年前他被性平有的時候是報復心態最後可能調查結果是沒事但老師無緣無故接受調查但是那個爛訴的報復的把校士工具校士會議當作報復工具的人完全不用付任何成本"},{"start":425.666,"end":452.176,"text":"所以這有沒有一個補償機制那這個補償機制是我們現在老師如果比如說他被調查他被停聘了然後後來他利用司法途徑恢復之後我們有修教司法嘛所以他之前應該領的錢是有還給他可是過程當中那種煎熬精神壓力對不對他搞不好去看身心科那請問一下都沒有補償機制嗎那爛數的人他不用付任何成本嗎"},{"start":454.495,"end":479.386,"text":"這個有沒有什麼機制這個是有一些反應我們也在想說要怎麼樣子來處理我們現在就是在講那個老師的那個職業安全衛生法依據那個職業安全法來保障他的那個工作那如果他工作被侵害的時候他會有一些補償或者是有一些司法的一些追訴所以這個部分我們是算你講司法就有誣告罪"},{"start":480.006,"end":502.887,"text":"但是校士會議就沒有你這個你也研究一下我盡快 我剛剛講的問題全部因為我是我希望你們的改革有成效所以我才點出我認為不足的地方就是請你們研議好不好對 好不好不過剛才委員提到那個性平案我們校士會是不調查性平案件的那一樣嘛 就爛數不是校士會 但是也是爛數對啦 委員就講的是其他的內容爛數啦好 然後這個再來齁"},{"start":506.026,"end":524.437,"text":"我看到你們今天的報告有提到就是說好像你們要比較明確的去定義這個管教的事項不要讓老師變成防禦式教學就變成說好像我這樣做是不是會被投訴合理管教權要保障但是這個次長啊我去看了一下你報告裡面的所謂的辦法全部都舊的啊"},{"start":525.694,"end":552.972,"text":"是113年2月的辦法啊對啊我們現在是115年欸你用了一個113年的辦法然後這幾年就是亂七八糟嘛那沒有改變啊這兩年我們也在蒐集啦就是說目前要怎麼樣子去把這個證項譬如說這24條它裡面阻缺違法所以我們現在還要了解宜蘭那個案件我們也在了解說這樣這樣這樣這個我是針對你的報告你的報告的意思是說好像已經要這樣做了可是你沿用的辦法是113年半"},{"start":553.953,"end":577.789,"text":"我們叫加強宣導 但是113年 委員我跟你講其實113年公佈但是事實上很多學校或者說那個現場他也沒有按照這樣做所以我們好幾次發函地方政府希望他們那個能夠 發函沒有用啦對對希望他們能夠依據這樣的辦法因為我們很多個案去檢視說這個不應該罰譬如說宜蘭那個委員所提到那個銅鋼門那個事件我們覺得奇怪這個24條就有啦為什麼他還去罰"},{"start":580.03,"end":586.854,"text":"所以你的意思是說你現在要開始落實落實24條甚至在23條的正向管教要落實就對了那我來舉幾個例子你今年說1月到4月開始改革"},{"start":596.28,"end":619.235,"text":"但今年三月有一個老師,最近有一個老師跟我反映啦,他是三月發生的事情,他什麼狀況呢?他在跌倒的禮堂,然後滑手機,然後後來就有學生呢,指控他,什麼手機,指控老師給學生看手機裡面他的私密照片,所以呢,學生認為受到性騷擾。那這個狀況是這樣子,就是其實,"},{"start":622.495,"end":644.11,"text":"學生指控的是比較久以前的事情但是呢在可能前一段時間老師就有管教學生所以學生呢就去投訴這個事但因為禮堂也沒有監視器所以後來在調查的時候那就都採用學生說法因為兩邊講的不一樣嘛都採用學生說法然後最後事實認定是這樣啦他說"},{"start":646.371,"end":667.686,"text":"這個被申請調查人已是個老師在學生可見範圍內操作手機卻曾使學生看見其手機涉及裸露身體或者是什麼什麼私密照片然後所以就是性騷擾那老師就說我不知道學生在看啊所以老師在滑手機然後可能學生瞄到還怎麼樣還是不知道都根本不知道啊這樣就直接被認定了"},{"start":668.86,"end":688.461,"text":"所以這個性平法對這個就非常的模糊嘛就是說好像現在只要講性平怎樣都可以認定那我今天比如說市長假設等一下我一張聊天然後你剛好滑手機有人不要說有人啦就可能很多群組啊有些人會傳一些那種照片被我瞄到我就說欸市長你對我性騷擾"},{"start":689.562,"end":701.373,"text":"然後我就檢舉你性病委員不會這樣子啦不是啦 我不會啦可是這種狀況老師就委員提的這個個案我們去了解一下啦是太寬鬆了我覺得該保護的要保護可是有點太寬鬆還有一個啦"},{"start":707.398,"end":736.542,"text":"那個高雄的一個林老師啊前一段時間被衛生局強勸送醫的這個案件你知道嗎那個在那個嚴老師公祭的前幾天被因為他問說學校最高樓層是幾樓大家擔心他所以就有勸他去送醫你知道他也被檢舉性貧你知道理由是什麼嗎理由是說因為他是個網紅啊所以很多人去他臉書留言其中有一個人留言說某某人身材很好然後他按了讚所以他就被認為有性騷擾或者是違反性貧啊"},{"start":738.032,"end":766.363,"text":"按讚不見的代表是認同吧有時候按讚有些人按讚只是表示說這個謝謝你來留言或者是說我看到了這個這種調查也很多人都覺得是完全不符合現在的事但是他因為這樣子喔那個老師因為被那個校長之前是調查霸凌事件然後他想要轉校結果忽然間又被調查性平調查性平又凍結這個轉校嘛那原因是因為他按了讚"},{"start":767.725,"end":779.951,"text":"這就太模糊了好不好我覺得我們講這個東西不管是性平也好校事會議也好其實都跟你講的這一條有關嘛太模糊了大家就防疫式教學嘛然後老師現在常常問一個問題啊譬如說署長在睡覺"},{"start":781.159,"end":810.502,"text":"然後假設他是學生那我去叫他起來然後署長就說你碰到我我要告你性貧那老師因為怕他告性貧所以乾脆不叫不叫之後家長就說你為什麼不理我的兒子你是不是故意要冷暴力他又檢舉然後不然呢家長就叫同學去叫同學去叫然後家長就說你為什麼叫同學來叫你是不是刻意叫同學來霸凌我那你覺得這樣現在如果學生在睡覺的話要怎麼叫學生起床"},{"start":812.473,"end":824.483,"text":"你告訴我你告訴我嘛對啊我想多數老師都知道合理管教的範圍啦多數老師你去調查一下多數老師知不知道好不好"},{"start":825.697,"end":849.482,"text":"你去我剛剛問的問題你可以問一下多數老師知不知道現在教學狀況怎麼處理委員提的問題是都是比較特例啦沒有特例喔也沒有特例這個就是大家說哇如果這樣子發展下去就是這樣所以真的要把它明確化我們也是在努力啦就是說只要是合理管教學要把它明確化因為我剛剛舉的不是特例就是個案啊我們會保障他在這方面不受到追究欸"},{"start":850.622,"end":874.788,"text":"然後就要明確啦 好不好然後最後啊 我跟你請教一下因為現在行政院有推一個第五級保全嘛他是鼓勵退休軍警嘛 到學校那其實我支持他的方向因為他們有看到校園裡面日益複雜的校安問題比如說毒品啊 惡霸這種的就是針對毒品的事情毒品或惡霸這種嘛那他為什麼鼓勵退休軍警因為他們之前受過訓練那"},{"start":876.508,"end":903.156,"text":"我覺得我有一些大家有擔心的點是說如果由軍警直接進來是不是學校變成被執法對我知道我的意思是說既然因為這也是我之前長期爭取的書長應該也知道國中的校安人員是有一個創新能力但是六十班才一個以前我們一直講不夠現在國中其實非常複雜要增加要增加然後行政院有注意到現在人力不夠他才會想到第五級保全"},{"start":904.076,"end":930.897,"text":"所以趁這個機會請教育部去跟行政院爭取預算你說那不然這樣子是不是教育部可以就是行政院可以給教育部預算讓教育部可以讓國中可以增聘校安人員而校安人員鼓勵軍警來擔任因為他看到問題了嘛那我們現在人力不足問題只是說用什麼方式進來校園協助那如果是校安人員我非常支持因為校安人員是配合學校在做學生的"},{"start":932.138,"end":953.857,"text":"輔導 工作然後他第一線也可以面對複雜的比如說幫派問題 毒品問題所以這個方向請次長 你爭取一下好不好如果第五級保全大家疑慮那麼大的話你直接增加國中校園員我也知道嘛 我也爭取過我們從114學年度開始就開始一位啊 我知道啊對 國中的 對創新人力 這不夠嘛因為這個都討論過啦因為高中又"},{"start":958.041,"end":976.541,"text":"主点会再增加2592个专任辅导教师跟专业辅导人员不够校安人员不一样好不好反正行政院有提了嘛你去争比如说第五级保全如果大家自爱难行无法推你去争取校安人员这个比较实际谢谢好 谢谢好 谢谢叶元志委员的支持"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:20.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:21.817000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請次長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:22.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.123000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.123000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:27.703000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:28.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:37.698000+08:00","text":"我們反覆聽到次長講說你們在校事會議改革之後已有了初步的成效，我們來看一下，這是跟去年1月到4月來比。對。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:38.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:52:59.330000+08:00","text":"投訴的案件有下降，投訴的案件被送到校事會議的比例也下降了，去年同期是82%，現在剩22%，今年不受理案件有增加，但是也是有一部分的投訴案件進到考核案件，我還是要提醒次長，我覺得這樣的數字其實是有盲點的。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:52:59.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:09.207000+08:00","text":"第一個，因為最近大家很重視校事會議這個議題，很關心老師，所以我覺得在這段期間濫訴一定會減少，因為現在社會關注。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:09.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.440000+08:00","text":"第二件事情，這是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，就像你沒有開車就不會車禍一樣，因為現在的老師都採防禦式教學，不太敢管，很多之前的濫訴都是因為老師管教學生，學生心生不滿，用報復的心態去投訴。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:25.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:53:35.264000+08:00","text":"現在老師不管了，不管當然就不會被報復，所以投訴案件自然就下降了，可是我覺得校事會議不能夠以這樣的數據自滿，還是有很多可以精進的地方。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:53:36.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:04.226000+08:00","text":"以下我就針對幾件事情來跟你討論一下，第一個，我覺得校事會議的調查時間實在太久了，它的規定是2個月，得延長2個月，最多是4個月，可是這只是字面上的時間，實際上校事會議什麼時候要開始調查，以及報告什麼時候寫出來，這是沒有一定時間的，如果學校要拖的話，它可以拖非常久，拖到半年、一年都有可能，這半年、一年對老師來說，造成極大的煎熬。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:05.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:19.080000+08:00","text":"我是不能認同人本基金會執行長講的，什麼叫做就算老師被調查，最後即便是濫訴，也不會對老師造成任何的傷害，所以叫老師不要受到影響推翻原本的親師關係。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:19.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:20.061000+08:00","text":"這什麼話！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:20.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:37.611000+08:00","text":"任何老師被調查越久他受到的煎熬越多，即便是最後還他清白了，過程當中受到很大的傷害，很多老師撐不住，留職停薪，所以時間一定要縮短，我不太懂為什麼要拖這麼長？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:37.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:44.855000+08:00","text":"如果調查四個月、半年、一年都調查不出個結果，代表就是沒有事，硬要給人家羅織入罪嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:44.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:46.575000+08:00","text":"有事就有事，沒事就沒事，為什麼要這麼久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:48.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:51.604000+08:00","text":"次長，時間上可不可以盡量快一點？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:51.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:52.404000+08:00","text":"我們可以來檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:54.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:54:57.267000+08:00","text":"你覺得需要到這麼久嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:54:57.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:03.331000+08:00","text":"時間上可以來檢討，現在是2個月加2個月的時間……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:03.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:05.772000+08:00","text":"你去調查一下為什麼需要這麼久好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:05.772000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:06.772000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們來了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:05.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:10.575000+08:00","text":"因為如果真的沒有什麼事，有這麼複雜的案件嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:11.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:18.080000+08:00","text":"有的是2到4個月，甚至拖到1年，我不認為是這樣，您檢討一下好不好？好。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:18.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:18.660000+08:00","text":"儘量縮短時間。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:19.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:26.668000+08:00","text":"第二個，有可能是因為委員都要喬彼此開會的時間，喬來喬去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:27.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:31.332000+08:00","text":"再來，委員是不是有出席費？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:31.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:36.838000+08:00","text":"你們搞一個校事會議，就我了解，委員出席費好像是2,500元？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:36.838000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:38.879000+08:00","text":"對，外聘是2,500元。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:38.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:39.419000+08:00","text":"可以開3次。外聘。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:40.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:43.480000+08:00","text":"對，外聘，最多開3次對不對？對。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:43.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:55:46.101000+08:00","text":"寫報告的話，1,000字是1,100塊到1,600塊。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:55:46.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:01.705000+08:00","text":"另外，如果還有逐字稿的費用，聽打每分鐘不知道多少錢，如果外聘委員是在外縣市的話，還要提供住宿費、交通費、膳食費，所以一場校事會議下來大概要多少錢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:02.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:03.965000+08:00","text":"要看情況。平均？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:03.965000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:05.226000+08:00","text":"看個案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:05.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:05.806000+08:00","text":"要不要10萬塊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:08.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:08.390000+08:00","text":"應該是不用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:10.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:10.933000+08:00","text":"應該是不用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:10.933000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:12.015000+08:00","text":"應該是不用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:12.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:13.557000+08:00","text":"你查一下好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:13.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:24.112000+08:00","text":"幾萬塊一定要，所以有沒有可能是因為這樣，他就慢慢來，會開越多，出席費可以領越多，有沒有可能是這種狀況？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:26.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:28.191000+08:00","text":"我的意思是你去了解一下。好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:28.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:29.932000+08:00","text":"我認為不需要拖到那麼久好不好？好。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:31.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:38.437000+08:00","text":"再來，我看到你們講的分流機制會先從人才庫裡面挑4個人召開會議，決定案件要不要進入校事會議。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:38.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:41.259000+08:00","text":"請問一下，人才庫裡面到底有哪些人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:42.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:44.207000+08:00","text":"這個為什麼不能公開？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:44.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:44.207000+08:00","text":"經過訓練的人。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:45.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:47.028000+08:00","text":"有哪些人可不可以公開？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:47.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:56:52.910000+08:00","text":"大概有教師、教育人員、法律人員、輔導、社工、律師、家長等等。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:56:53.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:02.113000+08:00","text":"譬如說行政院工程會有個評審委員的人才庫，有什麼人大家都知道。對。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:03.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:05.054000+08:00","text":"為什麼校事會議人才庫不能公開？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:06.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:11.260000+08:00","text":"還有每一次的校事會議到底是哪一些人參與調查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:11.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:13.482000+08:00","text":"或者是寫報告的人是誰？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:13.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:14.142000+08:00","text":"我覺得這可以公開吧！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:14.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:19.567000+08:00","text":"案件你可以不用講內容，因為它牽涉到兒童，可能不方便去談內容。對。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:20.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:23.009000+08:00","text":"可是哪些人參與，我覺得必須要公開啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:24.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:30.398000+08:00","text":"否則的話，有一些老師很不爽，他把那個報告po上網，大家看到都覺得很離譜。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:31.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:56.024000+08:00","text":"次長，上次不知道是跟您還是跟哪一位講，有一個老師被學生捅肛門，捅完肛門之後，後來他可能推了那個學生，就被家長投訴，投訴之後，最後報告的結果是，學生確實是有揪人去捅他肛門，但是老師也不能夠推學生，類似這樣。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:56.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:57.105000+08:00","text":"這個報告到底是誰寫的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:58.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:57:59.707000+08:00","text":"或者是哪些人參與？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:57:59.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:00.207000+08:00","text":"人可以公開吧？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:00.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:06.276000+08:00","text":"內容可以不要公開，但人是誰，我覺得讓大家知道一下好不好？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:06.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:10.539000+08:00","text":"不然的話，有一些委員到底夠不夠專業？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:10.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:13.261000+08:00","text":"或者這個委員有沒有什麼狹隘的角度？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:13.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:17.124000+08:00","text":"像人本基金會這種仇師的有沒有在這裡面？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:17.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:18.325000+08:00","text":"這可以公開啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:21.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:21.847000+08:00","text":"研究一下好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:23.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:23.993000+08:00","text":"有公開……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:23.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:26.514000+08:00","text":"每一個會議是誰調查，去哪裡可以查得到？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:28.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:30.937000+08:00","text":"有公開，但不是調查的部分，人才庫是公開的。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:30.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:58:36.821000+08:00","text":"人才庫公開，但是每一個案件是誰寫的，哪些人參與調查，我覺得這可以公開，這也不會有什麼影響。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:58:37.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:01.101000+08:00","text":"還有一點，剛剛我講了，每一個校事會議假設他濫訴的話，國家付出非常多的成本，老師也付出很多成本，但是濫訴的人完全不用付任何的成本，所以這就是變相鼓勵濫訴，我聽到太多濫訴都是報復，比如說他可能檢舉老師2年前的性平案件，為什麼忽然間檢舉？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:01.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:05.103000+08:00","text":"因為老師可能最近得罪他了，他就會去講2年前他被性平的事件。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:06.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:22.087000+08:00","text":"有的時候是報復心態，最後可能調查結果是沒事，但老師無緣無故要接受調查，但是那個濫訴的、報復的人，把校事會議當作報復工具的人完全不用付任何成本，所以這有沒有一個補償機制？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:23.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:40.334000+08:00","text":"這個補償機制是，現在的老師比如說他被調查、被停聘了，後來他利用司法途徑恢復之後，我們有修教師法，所以他之前應該領的錢是有還給他，可是過程當中那種煎熬、精神壓力，他搞不好要去看身心科。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:41.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:43.415000+08:00","text":"請問一下，這都沒有補償機制嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:43.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:46.176000+08:00","text":"濫訴的人他不用付任何成本嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:48.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:49.596000+08:00","text":"這個有沒有什麼機制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:51.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T10:59:55.818000+08:00","text":"這有一些反映，我們也在想要怎麼來處理。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T10:59:56.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:11.565000+08:00","text":"我們現在依據職業安全衛生法來保障老師的工作，如果他工作被侵害的時候，會有一些補償或者司法追訴，所以針對這個部分，我們……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:12.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:13.366000+08:00","text":"司法就有誣告罪嘛！對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:14.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:16.588000+08:00","text":"但是校事會議就沒有，這個你也研究一下，好不好？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:17.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:23.555000+08:00","text":"儘快針對我剛剛講的問題，因為我希望你們的改革有成效，所以我才點出我認為不足的地方……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:23.555000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:24.555000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:24.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:25.417000+08:00","text":"請你們研議，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:25.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:28.740000+08:00","text":"不過剛委員提到那個性平案，我們校事會議是不調查性平案件的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:29.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:29.721000+08:00","text":"一樣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:31.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:32.343000+08:00","text":"不是校事會議，但也是濫訴。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:32.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:34.385000+08:00","text":"委員講的是其他的內容。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:36.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:51.433000+08:00","text":"再來，我看到你們今天的報告有提到，你們要比較明確去定義管教的事項，不要讓老師變成防禦式教學，變成好像我這樣做，是不是會被投訴？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:51.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:00:52.573000+08:00","text":"對，合理管教權要保障，不罰！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:00:54.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:00.955000+08:00","text":"次長，我去看了一下你們報告裡所謂的辦法，全部都舊的，是113年2月的辦法。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:02.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:09.821000+08:00","text":"我們現在是115年，你用了一個113年的辦法，這幾年就是亂七八糟，沒有改變啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:11.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:20.368000+08:00","text":"這2年我們也在蒐集，目前怎麼樣去把這個正向……譬如第二十四條裡的阻卻違法，所以我們現在了解宜蘭那個案件，也在了解……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:21.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:26.832000+08:00","text":"次長，我是針對你的報告，你的報告意思是好像已經要這樣做了，可是你沿用的辦法是113年的辦法……","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:27.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:28.653000+08:00","text":"不是，我們要加強宣導。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:28.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:29.534000+08:00","text":"但是113年到……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:29.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:40.902000+08:00","text":"我跟委員講，雖然辦法在113年已經公布，但事實上，很多學校或者教育現場也沒有按照這樣做，所以我們發函好幾次給地方政府，希望他們能夠……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:40.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:41.522000+08:00","text":"發函沒有用啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:42.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:51.589000+08:00","text":"希望他們能夠依據這辦法來辦理，因為我們有去檢視很多個案，這個不應該罰，譬如委員剛提到宜蘭捅肛門事件，我們覺得奇怪，這在第二十四條就有規定啦！","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:51.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:51.789000+08:00","text":"為什麼他們還去罰？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:51.789000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:54.030000+08:00","text":"後來我們也去了解……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:54.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:57.212000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是，你現在要開始落實第二十四條。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:57.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:57.412000+08:00","text":"對，落實宣導。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:57.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:58.213000+08:00","text":"甚至第二十三條的正向管教措施也是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:58.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:01:59.433000+08:00","text":"要落實就對了？對。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:01:59.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:16.224000+08:00","text":"我來舉幾個例子，你說今年1月到4月會改革，但最近有一位老師跟我反映，這是在3月發生的事情，他發生什麼狀況呢？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:16.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:31.553000+08:00","text":"他在學校禮堂滑手機，後來就有學生指控他給學生看手機裡面他的私密照片，所以學生認為受到性騷擾。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:31.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:02:53.827000+08:00","text":"這個狀況是這樣的，其實學生指控的是比較久以前的事情，老師可能前一段時間有管教學生，所以學生就去投訴這件事，後來在調查的時候，因為禮堂也沒有監視器，且兩邊講法也不一樣，所以都採用學生說法。","quality":0.753},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:02:57.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:09.578000+08:00","text":"最後事實認定的結果是「被申請調查人乙師於學生可見範圍內操作手機時，確曾使學生看見其手機內涉及裸露身體並具有性意涵之私人私密照片。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:11.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:12.560000+08:00","text":"」所以就被認定為性騷擾。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:12.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:20.385000+08:00","text":"老師就表示，他不知道學生在看，老師在滑手機時可能學生瞄到還是怎麼樣，他根本不知道啊！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:20.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:23.060000+08:00","text":"這樣就直接被認定了，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:23.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:24.001000+08:00","text":"這個是依據性平法……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:25.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:42.461000+08:00","text":"這就非常的模糊，好像現在只要講性平，怎樣都可以認定，比如我等一下找次長聊天，你剛好滑手機，可能有人，不要說有人，可能某些群組裡有些人會傳一些那種照片被我瞄到，我就說：次長，你對我性騷擾。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:43.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:44.843000+08:00","text":"我就檢舉你性平，這個……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:45.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:46.485000+08:00","text":"委員不會這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:46.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:47.506000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:47.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:47.946000+08:00","text":"我不會這樣子啦！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:48.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:50.548000+08:00","text":"可是遇到這種狀況，老師就……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:51.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:53.951000+08:00","text":"委員提的這件個案，我們去了解一下，好不好？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:54.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:54.252000+08:00","text":"這太寬鬆了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:54.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:03:55.213000+08:00","text":"我覺得該保護的要保護，可是有點太寬鬆。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:03:55.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:07.703000+08:00","text":"還有一件，有關高雄的一位林老師，前一段時間被衛生局強勸送醫的這個案件，你知道嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:07.703000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:08.703000+08:00","text":"我知道，是位網紅老師。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:08.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:20.634000+08:00","text":"在嚴老師公祭的前幾天，因為他有問學校最高樓層是幾樓，大家擔心他，所以就有勸他去送醫，他也被檢舉性平，你知道理由是什麼嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:21.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:30.341000+08:00","text":"因為他是位網紅，所以很多人去他臉書留言，其中有一則留言說，某某人身材很好，然後他按了讚，所以他就被認為有性騷擾，或是違反性平。欸！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:32.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:34.053000+08:00","text":"按讚不見得代表是認同吧！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:36.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:04:40.935000+08:00","text":"有些人按讚只是表示說謝謝你來留言，或者是我看到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:04:43.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:02.625000+08:00","text":"這種調查讓很多人都覺得是完全不符合現在的……但他因為這樣，之前老師他因為被校長調查霸凌事件，他想要轉校，結果忽然間被調查性平又凍結轉校，那個原因是因為他按了讚，這就太模糊了。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:04.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:07.948000+08:00","text":"我們講這個東西不管是性平也好、校事會議也好，其實都跟你講的這一條有關嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:09.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:10.849000+08:00","text":"太模糊了，大家就防禦式教學。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:11.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:21.044000+08:00","text":"老師現在常問一個問題，譬如署長在睡覺，假設他是學生，我去叫他起來，然後署長就說：你碰到我，我要告你性平。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:22.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:27.629000+08:00","text":"老師因為怕他告性平，所以乾脆不叫，不叫之後家長就說：你為什麼不理我的兒子？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:28.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:29.570000+08:00","text":"你是不是故意要冷暴力他？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:30.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:30.651000+08:00","text":"又檢舉老師。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:31.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:38.097000+08:00","text":"不然叫同學去叫，然後家長就說：你為什麼叫同學來叫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:38.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:39.938000+08:00","text":"你是不是刻意叫同學來霸凌他？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:40.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:44.482000+08:00","text":"次長，你覺得現在如果學生在睡覺的話，要怎麼叫學生起床？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:46.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:46.933000+08:00","text":"你告訴我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:50.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:53.038000+08:00","text":"我想多數老師都知道合理管教的範圍啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:53.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:56.161000+08:00","text":"多數老師……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:56.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:57.161000+08:00","text":"就防禦性……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:05:56.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:05:58.463000+08:00","text":"你去調查一下，多數老師知不知道，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:00.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:04.818000+08:00","text":"我剛剛問的問題，你可以問一下，多數老師知不知道現在的教學狀況要怎麼處理？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:04.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:07.459000+08:00","text":"委員提的問題都是比較特例啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:07.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:08.659000+08:00","text":"沒有特例喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:09.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:10.899000+08:00","text":"這個就是大家說：哇！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:11.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:13.020000+08:00","text":"如果這樣子發展下去就是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:13.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:15.060000+08:00","text":"所以真的要把它明確化……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:15.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:17.541000+08:00","text":"我們也是在努力，怎麼樣是合理管教權。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:18.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:20.141000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛舉的不是特例，這是個案。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:20.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:23.462000+08:00","text":"我們會保障他在這方面不受到追究。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:25.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:26.883000+08:00","text":"就是要明確，好不好？好。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:27.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:42.746000+08:00","text":"最後，我跟你請教一下，因為現在行政院有推第5級保全，他是鼓勵退休軍警到學校，其實我支持他們的方向，因為他們有看到校園裡日益複雜的校安問題，比如毒品、惡霸這種。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:43.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:43.987000+08:00","text":"就針對毒品的事件。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:46.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:47.767000+08:00","text":"他為什麼鼓勵退休軍警？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:47.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:48.768000+08:00","text":"因為他們之前受過訓練。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:51.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:57.190000+08:00","text":"大家有一些擔心的點是，如果由軍警直接進來，是不是學校變成被執法……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:57.190000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:58.190000+08:00","text":"沒有，這不行。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:57.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:06:57.990000+08:00","text":"我知道、我知道。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:06:58.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:10.914000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，因為這也是我之前長期爭取的，署長應該也知道，國中的校安人員是有一個創新人力，但是60班才一個，以前我們一直講不夠，現在國中其實是非常複雜，要增加……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:11.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:12.034000+08:00","text":"要增加，現在國中有……","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:13.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:17.136000+08:00","text":"行政院有注意到現在人力不夠，他才會想到第5級保全嘛！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:18.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:39.353000+08:00","text":"所以趁這個機會，請教育部去跟行政院爭取預算，不然這樣，行政院可以給教育部預算，讓國中可以增聘校安人員，而校安人員鼓勵軍警來擔任，因為他看到問題了，我們現在有人力不足問題，只是用什麼方式進來校園協助。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:40.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:56.547000+08:00","text":"如果是校安人員，我非常支持，因為校安人員是配合學校在做學生的輔導工作，他第一線也可以面對複雜的，比如幫派問題、毒品問題，所以針對這部分，請次長爭取一下，好不好？好。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:56.547000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:07:57.547000+08:00","text":"其實我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:07:56.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:00.871000+08:00","text":"針對第5級保全，大家疑慮那麼大的話，你直增加國中校安人員。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:01.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:03.874000+08:00","text":"委員也知道，我們也爭取過，從114學年度開始補助……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:04.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:05.355000+08:00","text":"一位，我知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:05.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.216000+08:00","text":"對國中的，副組長或是創新人力。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.276000+08:00","text":"就不夠嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.777000+08:00","text":"因為這個都討論過，因為高中……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:07.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:16.726000+08:00","text":"逐年會再增加2,592個專任輔導教師及專業輔導人員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:16.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:17.967000+08:00","text":"我覺得不夠，校安人員不一樣，好不好？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:18.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:25.736000+08:00","text":"反正行政院有提了，你去爭取，如果第5級保全窒礙難行，無法推行，你去爭取校安人員，好不好？","quality":0.622},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:26.236000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:28.236000+08:00","text":"這個比較實際啦！","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:28.536000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:31.393143+08:00","text":"我們再去爭取，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:31.693143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:35.978857+08:00","text":"謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，請次長回座。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:08:36.278857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:08:40.278857+08:00","text":"下一位有請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1554,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時52分）主席，麻煩請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。我們反覆聽到次長講說你們在校事會議改革之後已有了初步的成效，我們來看一下，這是跟去年1月到4月來比。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：投訴的案件有下降，投訴的案件被送到校事會議的比例也下降了，去年同期是82%，現在剩22%，今年不受理案件有增加，但是也是有一部分的投訴案件進到考核案件，我還是要提醒次長，我覺得這樣的數字其實是有盲點的。","第一個，因為最近大家很重視校事會議這個議題，很關心老師，所以我覺得在這段期間濫訴一定會減少，因為現在社會關注。第二件事情，這是一個雞生蛋、蛋生雞的問題，就像你沒有開車就不會車禍一樣，因為現在的老師都採防禦式教學，不太敢管，很多之前的濫訴都是因為老師管教學生，學生心生不滿，用報復的心態去投訴。現在老師不管了，不管當然就不會被報復，所以投訴案件自然就下降了，可是我覺得校事會議不能夠以這樣的數據自滿，還是有很多可以精進的地方。","以下我就針對幾件事情來跟你討論一下，第一個，我覺得校事會議的調查時間實在太久了，它的規定是2個月，得延長2個月，最多是4個月，可是這只是字面上的時間，實際上校事會議什麼時候要開始調查，以及報告什麼時候寫出來，這是沒有一定時間的，如果學校要拖的話，它可以拖非常久，拖到半年、一年都有可能，這半年、一年對老師來說，造成極大的煎熬。我是不能認同人本基金會執行長講的，什麼叫做就算老師被調查，最後即便是濫訴，也不會對老師造成任何的傷害，所以叫老師不要受到影響推翻原本的親師關係。這什麼話！任何老師被調查越久他受到的煎熬越多，即便是最後還他清白了，過程當中受到很大的傷害，很多老師撐不住，留職停薪，所以時間一定要縮短，我不太懂為什麼要拖這麼長？如果調查四個月、半年、一年都調查不出個結果，代表就是沒有事，硬要給人家羅織入罪嗎？有事就有事，沒事就沒事，為什麼要這麼久？次長，時間上可不可以盡量快一點？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們可以來檢討。"],["葉委員元之：你覺得需要到這麼久嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：時間上可以來檢討，現在是2個月加2個月的時間……"],["葉委員元之：你去調查一下為什麼需要這麼久好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝，我們來了解。"],["葉委員元之：因為如果真的沒有什麼事，有這麼複雜的案件嗎？有的是2到4個月，甚至拖到1年，我不認為是這樣，您檢討一下好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["葉委員元之：儘量縮短時間。第二個，有可能是因為委員都要喬彼此開會的時間，喬來喬去。再來，委員是不是有出席費？你們搞一個校事會議，就我了解，委員出席費好像是2,500元？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，外聘是2,500元。"],["葉委員元之：可以開3次。"],["張廖次長萬堅：外聘。"],["葉委員元之：對，外聘，最多開3次對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：寫報告的話，1,000字是1,100塊到1,600塊。另外，如果還有逐字稿的費用，聽打每分鐘不知道多少錢，如果外聘委員是在外縣市的話，還要提供住宿費、交通費、膳食費，所以一場校事會議下來大概要多少錢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：要看情況。"],["葉委員元之：平均？"],["張廖次長萬堅：看個案。"],["葉委員元之：要不要10萬塊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該是不用。"],["葉委員元之：應該是不用？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該是不用。"],["葉委員元之：你查一下好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["葉委員元之：幾萬塊一定要，所以有沒有可能是因為這樣，他就慢慢來，會開越多，出席費可以領越多，有沒有可能是這種狀況？我的意思是你去了解一下。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["葉委員元之：我認為不需要拖到那麼久好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["葉委員元之：再來，我看到你們講的分流機制會先從人才庫裡面挑4個人召開會議，決定案件要不要進入校事會議。請問一下，人才庫裡面到底有哪些人？這個為什麼不能公開？"],["張廖次長萬堅：經過訓練的人。"],["葉委員元之：有哪些人可不可以公開？"],["張廖次長萬堅：大概有教師、教育人員、法律人員、輔導、社工、律師、家長等等。"],["葉委員元之：譬如說行政院工程會有個評審委員的人才庫，有什麼人大家都知道。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼校事會議人才庫不能公開？還有每一次的校事會議到底是哪一些人參與調查？或者是寫報告的人是誰？我覺得這可以公開吧！案件你可以不用講內容，因為它牽涉到兒童，可能不方便去談內容。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：可是哪些人參與，我覺得必須要公開啊！否則的話，有一些老師很不爽，他把那個報告po上網，大家看到都覺得很離譜。","次長，上次不知道是跟您還是跟哪一位講，有一個老師被學生捅肛門，捅完肛門之後，後來他可能推了那個學生，就被家長投訴，投訴之後，最後報告的結果是，學生確實是有揪人去捅他肛門，但是老師也不能夠推學生，類似這樣。這個報告到底是誰寫的？或者是哪些人參與？人可以公開吧？內容可以不要公開，但人是誰，我覺得讓大家知道一下好不好？不然的話，有一些委員到底夠不夠專業？或者這個委員有沒有什麼狹隘的角度？像人本基金會這種仇師的有沒有在這裡面？這可以公開啊！研究一下好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有公開……"],["葉委員元之：每一個會議是誰調查，去哪裡可以查得到？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有公開，但不是調查的部分，人才庫是公開的。"],["葉委員元之：人才庫公開，但是每一個案件是誰寫的，哪些人參與調查，我覺得這可以公開，這也不會有什麼影響。","還有一點，剛剛我講了，每一個校事會議假設他濫訴的話，國家付出非常多的成本，老師也付出很多成本，但是濫訴的人完全不用付任何的成本，所以這就是變相鼓勵濫訴，我聽到太多濫訴都是報復，比如說他可能檢舉老師2年前的性平案件，為什麼忽然間檢舉？因為老師可能最近得罪他了，他就會去講2年前他被性平的事件。有的時候是報復心態，最後可能調查結果是沒事，但老師無緣無故要接受調查，但是那個濫訴的、報復的人，把校事會議當作報復工具的人完全不用付任何成本，所以這有沒有一個補償機制？這個補償機制是，現在的老師比如說他被調查、被停聘了，後來他利用司法途徑恢復之後，我們有修教師法，所以他之前應該領的錢是有還給他，可是過程當中那種煎熬、精神壓力，他搞不好要去看身心科。請問一下，這都沒有補償機制嗎？濫訴的人他不用付任何成本嗎？這個有沒有什麼機制？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這有一些反映，我們也在想要怎麼來處理。我們現在依據職業安全衛生法來保障老師的工作，如果他工作被侵害的時候，會有一些補償或者司法追訴，所以針對這個部分，我們……"],["葉委員元之：司法就有誣告罪嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：但是校事會議就沒有，這個你也研究一下，好不好？儘快針對我剛剛講的問題，因為我希望你們的改革有成效，所以我才點出我認為不足的地方……"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["葉委員元之：請你們研議，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。不過剛委員提到那個性平案，我們校事會議是不調查性平案件的。"],["葉委員元之：一樣嘛！不是校事會議，但也是濫訴。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員講的是其他的內容。"],["葉委員元之：再來，我看到你們今天的報告有提到，你們要比較明確去定義管教的事項，不要讓老師變成防禦式教學，變成好像我這樣做，是不是會被投訴？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，合理管教權要保障，不罰！"],["葉委員元之：次長，我去看了一下你們報告裡所謂的辦法，全部都舊的，是113年2月的辦法。我們現在是115年，你用了一個113年的辦法，這幾年就是亂七八糟，沒有改變啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：這2年我們也在蒐集，目前怎麼樣去把這個正向……譬如第二十四條裡的阻卻違法，所以我們現在了解宜蘭那個案件，也在了解……"],["葉委員元之：次長，我是針對你的報告，你的報告意思是好像已經要這樣做了，可是你沿用的辦法是113年的辦法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，我們要加強宣導。"],["葉委員元之：但是113年到……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我跟委員講，雖然辦法在113年已經公布，但事實上，很多學校或者教育現場也沒有按照這樣做，所以我們發函好幾次給地方政府，希望他們能夠……"],["葉委員元之：發函沒有用啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：希望他們能夠依據這辦法來辦理，因為我們有去檢視很多個案，這個不應該罰，譬如委員剛提到宜蘭捅肛門事件，我們覺得奇怪，這在第二十四條就有規定啦！為什麼他們還去罰？後來我們也去了解……"],["葉委員元之：所以你的意思是，你現在要開始落實第二十四條。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，落實宣導。甚至第二十三條的正向管教措施也是。"],["葉委員元之：要落實就對了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：好。我來舉幾個例子，你說今年1月到4月會改革，但最近有一位老師跟我反映，這是在3月發生的事情，他發生什麼狀況呢？他在學校禮堂滑手機，後來就有學生指控他給學生看手機裡面他的私密照片，所以學生認為受到性騷擾。這個狀況是這樣的，其實學生指控的是比較久以前的事情，老師可能前一段時間有管教學生，所以學生就去投訴這件事，後來在調查的時候，因為禮堂也沒有監視器，且兩邊講法也不一樣，所以都採用學生說法。最後事實認定的結果是「被申請調查人乙師於學生可見範圍內操作手機時，確曾使學生看見其手機內涉及裸露身體並具有性意涵之私人私密照片。」所以就被認定為性騷擾。老師就表示，他不知道學生在看，老師在滑手機時可能學生瞄到還是怎麼樣，他根本不知道啊！這樣就直接被認定了，所以……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個是依據性平法……"],["葉委員元之：這就非常的模糊，好像現在只要講性平，怎樣都可以認定，比如我等一下找次長聊天，你剛好滑手機，可能有人，不要說有人，可能某些群組裡有些人會傳一些那種照片被我瞄到，我就說：次長，你對我性騷擾。我就檢舉你性平，這個……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員不會這樣啦！我知道。"],["葉委員元之：我不會這樣子啦！可是遇到這種狀況，老師就……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員提的這件個案，我們去了解一下，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：這太寬鬆了。我覺得該保護的要保護，可是有點太寬鬆。還有一件，有關高雄的一位林老師，前一段時間被衛生局強勸送醫的這個案件，你知道嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我知道，是位網紅老師。"],["葉委員元之：在嚴老師公祭的前幾天，因為他有問學校最高樓層是幾樓，大家擔心他，所以就有勸他去送醫，他也被檢舉性平，你知道理由是什麼嗎？因為他是位網紅，所以很多人去他臉書留言，其中有一則留言說，某某人身材很好，然後他按了讚，所以他就被認為有性騷擾，或是違反性平。欸！按讚不見得代表是認同吧！有些人按讚只是表示說謝謝你來留言，或者是我看到了。這種調查讓很多人都覺得是完全不符合現在的……但他因為這樣，之前老師他因為被校長調查霸凌事件，他想要轉校，結果忽然間被調查性平又凍結轉校，那個原因是因為他按了讚，這就太模糊了。我們講這個東西不管是性平也好、校事會議也好，其實都跟你講的這一條有關嘛！太模糊了，大家就防禦式教學。","老師現在常問一個問題，譬如署長在睡覺，假設他是學生，我去叫他起來，然後署長就說：你碰到我，我要告你性平。老師因為怕他告性平，所以乾脆不叫，不叫之後家長就說：你為什麼不理我的兒子？你是不是故意要冷暴力他？又檢舉老師。不然叫同學去叫，然後家長就說：你為什麼叫同學來叫？你是不是刻意叫同學來霸凌他？次長，你覺得現在如果學生在睡覺的話，要怎麼叫學生起床？你告訴我。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想多數老師都知道合理管教的範圍啦！"],["葉委員元之：多數老師……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就防禦性……"],["葉委員元之：你去調查一下，多數老師知不知道，好不好？我剛剛問的問題，你可以問一下，多數老師知不知道現在的教學狀況要怎麼處理？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員提的問題都是比較特例啦！"],["葉委員元之：沒有特例喔！這個就是大家說：哇！如果這樣子發展下去就是這樣。所以真的要把它明確化……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們也是在努力，怎麼樣是合理管教權。"],["葉委員元之：因為我剛剛舉的不是特例，這是個案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會保障他在這方面不受到追究。"],["葉委員元之：就是要明確，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["葉委員元之：最後，我跟你請教一下，因為現在行政院有推第5級保全，他是鼓勵退休軍警到學校，其實我支持他們的方向，因為他們有看到校園裡日益複雜的校安問題，比如毒品、惡霸這種。"],["張廖次長萬堅：就針對毒品的事件。"],["葉委員元之：他為什麼鼓勵退休軍警？因為他們之前受過訓練。大家有一些擔心的點是，如果由軍警直接進來，是不是學校變成被執法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，這不行。"],["葉委員元之：我知道、我知道。我的意思是，因為這也是我之前長期爭取的，署長應該也知道，國中的校安人員是有一個創新人力，但是60班才一個，以前我們一直講不夠，現在國中其實是非常複雜，要增加……"],["張廖次長萬堅：要增加，現在國中有……"],["葉委員元之：行政院有注意到現在人力不夠，他才會想到第5級保全嘛！所以趁這個機會，請教育部去跟行政院爭取預算，不然這樣，行政院可以給教育部預算，讓國中可以增聘校安人員，而校安人員鼓勵軍警來擔任，因為他看到問題了，我們現在有人力不足問題，只是用什麼方式進來校園協助。如果是校安人員，我非常支持，因為校安人員是配合學校在做學生的輔導工作，他第一線也可以面對複雜的，比如幫派問題、毒品問題，所以針對這部分，請次長爭取一下，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。其實我們……"],["葉委員元之：針對第5級保全，大家疑慮那麼大的話，你直增加國中校安人員。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員也知道，我們也爭取過，從114學年度開始補助……"],["葉委員元之：一位，我知道啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對國中的，副組長或是創新人力。"],["葉委員元之：就不夠嘛！因為這個都討論過，因為高中……"],["張廖次長萬堅：逐年會再增加2,592個專任輔導教師及專業輔導人員。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得不夠，校安人員不一樣，好不好？反正行政院有提了，你去爭取，如果第5級保全窒礙難行，無法推行，你去爭取校安人員，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個比較實際啦！我們再去爭取，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，請次長回座。","下一位有請吳思瑤委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-17","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","蔡春綢","葉元之","吳思瑤","吳沛憶","范雲","張雅琳","洪孟楷","王安祥","羅廷瑋","羅智強","盧縣一","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩","何欣純","黃捷","林倩綺"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}