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{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"彭署長富源","start":625.51971875,"end":625.9753437500001,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":625.9753437500001,"end":627.2409687500001,"speaker_score":0.884},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.2409687500001,"end":627.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":627.62909375,"end":628.0847187500001,"speaker_score":0.884}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.239,"end":16.241,"text":"謝謝主席 我請教育部長廖萬堅次長好 有請次長"},{"start":20.816,"end":48.781,"text":"委員好市長好這個今天我們的質詢主題是校師會議教師輔導管教制度學校權益相關的討論那事實上我想很多的今天的討論源起於就是2019年教師法的修法那我發了那個時候的報紙這個全版的當時這個報紙下一個標題說教師與家長兩台火車對撞那我想對於教育來講我們最希望的是"},{"start":50.022,"end":57.013,"text":"教師、家長、學生、校方大家在同一台列車上才能夠安全的往前來前進"},{"start":60.931,"end":83.156,"text":"2023年這也是在我進入立法院之前我們教委會就有辦過一場公聘會我看當時的洪維斌執行長他指出說解聘辦法上路前後的差別他們感受到的是第一個就是說過往學校在處理師生管教事件第一個首重的是輔導先行那溝通理解"},{"start":84.056,"end":103.075,"text":"那有時候這可以迅速來解決相關的爭議不過他們感受到的是教師解評辦法上路之後好像投訴案件是不分輕重大小只要有投訴案如果沒有調查報告沒有懲處的這個審議好像主管機關就不給他們解除列管所以好像只要有投訴"},{"start":104.016,"end":117.466,"text":"就要有這個結果出來所以當時他們就建議說投訴案件應該要分流來處理那麼直到昨天全教總在記者會上面我覺得指出問題同樣是一樣的就是說"},{"start":118.908,"end":138.947,"text":"教師不是拒絕監督而是說當體制陷入了一個防衛的氛圍有時候這個調查的時間已經給他們造成很大的心理的壓力所以我們最重要就是分流跟防止濫訴那教育部你們也看到這個問題所以今年1月我們最主要修辦法就是在解決這個問題你們做了哪些調整"},{"start":141.651,"end":155.96,"text":"我想在書面報告裡面也提到了就是包括取消了匿名投訴還有那個大小案的分流還有增加輔佐人機制還有很多的相關的措施我想這個在上路之後我們也"},{"start":157.701,"end":181.515,"text":"初步看到就是說這個投訴的案件減少然後在分流之後就是過去的投訴案件跟現在投訴案件比起來降了大概55%然後送到消失會議的剩下22%所以我們是看那個數字的趨向就是說我們在聽了很多各界的意見包括老師的意見之後做了修正之後"},{"start":182.455,"end":200.48,"text":"初步是有感受到那個分流有造成那個結果這個數字是有在減少不過呢這個拒絕爛訴這個讓他的理由可以更明確我覺得這個還是教育部要來去協助校方的那我覺得我們可以參考幾個機制第一個是這個我們司法機關"},{"start":201.38,"end":226.207,"text":"其實有這個機制像例如我們民事訴訟法我們行政訴訟法都有明確去定義爛訴什麼是爛訴比如說基於惡意你是來報復的你不當目的中大過失等等有一個明確的定義但這些都還是抽象的所以法院在做的時候它會有實務見解依據過去的一些案例把它整理出來如果是屬於這些案例的經驗我過去就已經判定它是爛訴了那我未來你只要進來的時候我也許可以參考這個及這個過去的解釋"},{"start":230.788,"end":245.62,"text":"所以我是建議教育部我們是不是可以來去整理跟收集你們過去相關的這些裁判跟是決議讓未來學校他去判定因為學校也有壓力嘛我如果說這個是爛數等一下人家說我吃爛怎麼辦"},{"start":246.721,"end":264.753,"text":"所以怎麼樣它可以合理我建議你們可以去收集相關的資料然後讓學校更明確能夠去定義能夠去設定一個標準那再來是說像日本跟韓國有一個制度我其實覺得很不錯就是學校律師"},{"start":265.954,"end":292.657,"text":"剛剛前面司法委員持續也有提到給教師支持法律支持也是很重要那韓國他們也是這兩年才上路的嘛他學校律師主要是給教師的支持系統就當老師遇到法律糾紛的時候這個學校律師可以來提供資訊日本的方式他的學校律師他是由日本的律師聯合會等於是律師公會來主動跟校園來合作簽約嘛那他的角色比較像調解人"},{"start":293.297,"end":311.548,"text":"還是要以兒童的最佳利益來協助學校就是說學校在很多投訴實際案件發生之前的時候有發生相關的狀況可能學校律師就可以來協助這部分教育部有沒有了解委員剛來媒體也問我這個問題就是說我們在公聽會跟座談會的時候事實上也有老師"},{"start":312.368,"end":338.361,"text":"做團體提到就說有這樣的一個機制所以我當時也說我支持就是說我們會來研議就是說在我們教書法修法之後雖然有把這個教師心理智商輔導的這個建制納進去那我們現在是不是也可以仿照韓國日本這樣的模式在跟工協會一起合作或者是跟這個縣市政府看他們能不能提供一些比較也有專業素養譬如我們現在有一些講習的"},{"start":339.662,"end":361.58,"text":"做那個不適任教師的那些人才我覺得教育部可以趕快來研議甚至我們主動來跟律師公會律師聯合會他們來討論我們在朝這個方向會來努力來協助那這部分我想就是橫貧啦就是說不要讓老師覺得好像說我只要只要好像被投訴我就是有罪推定那種感受雖然"},{"start":363.561,"end":383.506,"text":"有的外界不認為是這樣但他們會有那種感受所以如果說我們能夠比較熟悉校園法令的律師能夠在各縣市都建立諮詢系統甚至呢遇到一些法律事件的時候能夠幫他們爭取權益我覺得這是一個一個橫平而且是適當的措施我們會去研議而且現在已經在"},{"start":384.506,"end":403.912,"text":"再想辦法來明年看能不能就開始這個學校律師這個制度我想很重要那確實如次長剛剛講的這個主觀感受有時候各有不同所以訂定明確的標準我覺得很重要那麼其中今天要特別提出來討論就是有關於這個最早這個1995年訂教師法的時候裡面就有"},{"start":405.993,"end":427.093,"text":"教學不立這個法律這個名詞那麼我們在修教師法的時候當時教學不立是不是要納進來我們這個停解聘的這個調查程序當中其實也多有所討論那我今天要特別來提醒次長的是因為當時本來教師不立你們這個教學不立後面的流程你有一個專審會"},{"start":428.934,"end":456.186,"text":"專審會主要的制度是來輔導嘛對不對因為我希望他提升教學品質假設真的教學不利我要他改善我要能夠來輔導協助他但是後來你們帶入了這個校師會議機制之後前面就開始先調查了但是呢當時在修教師法的時候其實立法院有給一個附帶決議要求教育部針對教學不利要去做更明確的定義結果呢我去把它翻出來看了"},{"start":457.185,"end":484.33,"text":"在修法前後你們關於教學不利教育部有沒有去調整有沒有去設定更明確的標準沒有耶你們只是把教學不利的定義本來12項改成11項刪掉了1項就是因重病那其他的例如說這個好例如說親師溝通不良情結嚴重者請問溝通不良要怎麼定義什麼樣叫做情結嚴重然後呢這個教學行為失當請問什麼樣的行為叫做失當"},{"start":486.75,"end":503.385,"text":"然後呢 你班級經營欠佳這個也叫教學不力怎麼樣班級經營叫欠佳當時立法院2019年就已經要求你們教育部要去訂定更明確的標準市長 當時您也是立法委員您也是這個附帶決議的連署人"},{"start":505.768,"end":517.702,"text":"所以我今天必須要提醒教育部你們並沒有依照當時立法院的審查這個修法的附帶結語去把教學規定定的更明確我請署長說明一下好請說明委員長這一個的確非常的重要所以在當年齁"},{"start":521.767,"end":540.74,"text":"以至於附帶決議就去找法治專家幫我們演繹在前言裡面就去做一點跟以前不一樣的區隔並且在條文內有條文不同的這個敘寫但是我們講得很好所以這一次在輔導管教的注意是向上就要對這一類包含老師的班級經營輔導管教跟教學的進行"},{"start":543.301,"end":547.387,"text":"這都慢了啦2019年就要做的事這個在實務上這個你們比我們更清楚你定義不明確的時候在實務上就會造成很多的糾紛那最後一點就是我要拜託教育部的有關於教師的行政減量這個教育部也很重視你們也開了分區座談會嘛"},{"start":560.143,"end":565.325,"text":"好 當時這個單頭縣的這個教師有提出幾個建議後來呢單頭縣政府確實也公告 例如說這個交案不用再交了然後這個課程計畫本來就是備審結果地方政府一堆都把他搞了十字審查來回修改就花一堆時間我現在要拜託教育部的是說這個你們 我們國教署可不可以你們可不可以用這個行政命令的行政辦法的行政指導的方式你們直接來公告了啦"},{"start":584.452,"end":605.191,"text":"因為現在好多縣市政府你知道他們的那個老師都在tag他們的首長說啊拜託一下看到南投縣有這個公告好羨慕連我們蔣灣市長也都被老師tag他說台北市什麼時候要跟進每個縣市都在問那其實我們都認為是對的事情要做的是不是教育部可以趕快跟這個地方政府來溝通行政指導有一些我們有共識的就可以來先行了"},{"start":605.771,"end":620.659,"text":"委員講這個其實在兩個月前我們就處理一波但是委員有特別講到地方政府應該有更明確的態度這個我們來瞭解實務上他拿到那個函之後他們具體的做法怎麼樣因為現在到七月份我們要讓他們確實可以去落實趕快來跟地方政府討論大家發函你們就發函對沒錯謝謝委員謝謝市長謝謝趙委員謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:28:46.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:28:47.820000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請教育部張廖萬堅次長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:28:48+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:28:48.241000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:28:52.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:28:53.576000+08:00","text":"吳委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:28:54.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:28:54.036000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:28:54.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:29:17.220000+08:00","text":"今天我們的質詢主題是「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」，我想今天的討論緣起於2019年教師法的修法，我翻了那個時候的報紙、全版，當時報紙下了一個標題是教師與家長兩台火車對撞。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:29:18.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:29:29.013000+08:00","text":"對於教育來講，我們最希望的是教師、家長、學生、校方，大家在同一台列車上，才能夠安全地往前進。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:29:32.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:30:18.018000+08:00","text":"2023年，在我進入立法院之前，教委會就辦過一場公聽會，我看當時洪維彬執行長指出，解聘辦法上路前後之差別他們感受到的是，第一個，過往學校在處理師生管教事件，首重的是輔導先行、溝通理解，有時候這可以迅速解決相關的爭議，不過他們感受到的是，教師解聘辦法上路之後，好像投訴案件是不分輕重大小，只要有投訴案，如果沒有調查報告、沒有懲處的審議，好像主管機關就不給他們解除列管，所以好像只要有投訴就要有結果出來。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:30:18.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:30:23.001000+08:00","text":"當時他們就建議，投訴案件應該要分流處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:30:24.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:30:40.978000+08:00","text":"直到昨天，全教總在記者會上面，我覺得指出的問題是一樣的，就是教師不是拒絕監督，而是當體制陷入了一個防衛的氛圍，有時候，調查的時間已經造成他們很大的心理壓力。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:30:41.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:30:50.927000+08:00","text":"所以最重要的就是分流跟防止濫訴，教育部也看到這個問題，因此今年1月修辦法，最主要就是在解決這個問題，你們做了哪些調整？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:30:53.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:31:04.598000+08:00","text":"我想在書面報告裡面也提到了，包括取消匿名投訴，以及大小案的分流，增加輔佐人機制，還有很多相關的措施。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:31:06.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:31:25.790000+08:00","text":"上路之後我們也初步看到投訴案件減少，然後在分流之後，過去跟現在的投訴案件比起來降了大概55%，送到校事會議的剩下22%。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:31:25.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:31:38.116000+08:00","text":"所以我們是看那個數字的趨向，就是我們聽了各界意見，包括老師的意見，做了修正之後，初步是有感受到分流有造成那個結果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:31:38.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:31:49.019000+08:00","text":"這個數字是有在減少，不過就拒絕濫訴，讓他的理由可以更明確，我覺得這個還是教育部要去協助校方的。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:31:49.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:32:07.184000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們可以參考幾個機制，第一個，司法機關其實有這個機制，例如我們的民事訴訟法、行政訴訟法都有明確定義什麼是濫訴，譬如基於惡意，你是來報復的，或是有不當目的、重大過失等等，有一個明確的定義，但這些都還是抽象的。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:32:07.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:32:18.207000+08:00","text":"所以法院在做的時候會有實務見解，依據過去的一些案例把它整理出來，如果是屬於這些案例的經驗，過去就已經判定他是濫訴了，那未來你只要進來的時候，我也許可以參考過去的解釋。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:32:22.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:32:37.620000+08:00","text":"所以我是建議教育部，是不是可以整理及收集你們過去相關的這些裁判或決議，讓未來學校去判定時，因為學校也有壓力，我如果說這個是濫訴，人家說我吃案怎麼辦？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:32:38.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:32:48.188000+08:00","text":"所以怎麼樣讓它可以合理，我建議你們去收集相關資料，讓學校更明確地能夠去設定一個標準。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:32:49.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:32:56.753000+08:00","text":"再來，像日本跟韓國有一個制度我覺得很不錯，就是學校律師。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:32:57.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:33:01.958000+08:00","text":"剛剛思瑤委員的質詢也提到，給教師支持、法律的支持也很重要。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:33:03.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:33:13.808000+08:00","text":"韓國也是這兩年才上路，其學校律師主要是給教師的支持系統，當老師遇到法律糾紛的時候，學校律師可以提供諮詢。對。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:33:14.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:33:35.383000+08:00","text":"日本的方式，他的學校律師是由日本的律師聯合會，等於是律師公會主動跟校園合作、簽約，他的角色比較像是調解人，還是要以兒童的最佳利益為主來協助學校，就是學校在很多實際案件發生之前，有發生相關的狀況，可能學校律師就可以來協助。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:33:35.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:33:37.444000+08:00","text":"這部分教育部有沒有了解？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:33:39.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:33:50.351000+08:00","text":"對，剛才媒體也問我這個問題，在公聽會跟座談會的時候也有老師或團體提到有這樣的一個機制，所以我當時也說我支持，我們會來研議。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:33:50.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:13.504000+08:00","text":"在我們教師法修法之後，雖然有把教師心理諮商輔導的這個建置納進去，那我們現在是不是也可以仿照韓國、日本的模式，跟公協會一起合作或者跟縣市政府，看他們能不能提供一些也比較有專業素養的，譬如我們現在有一些講習的……不適任教師的那些人才庫裡面……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:34:13.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:15.305000+08:00","text":"是，我覺得教育部可以趕快研議。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:34:15.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:16.526000+08:00","text":"我們也在研議……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:34:16.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:20.189000+08:00","text":"甚至我們主動跟律師公會、律師聯合會來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:34:20.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:37.802000+08:00","text":"是，我們朝這個方向會來努力、協助，這一部分我想就是衡平，不要讓老師覺得好像只要被投訴就是有罪推定，雖然有的在外界不認為是這樣，但他們會有那種感受。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:34:38.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:34:59.347000+08:00","text":"所以如果比較熟悉校園法令的律師能夠在各縣市都建立諮詢系統，甚至遇到一些法律事件的時候能夠幫他們爭取權益，我覺得這是一個衡平且適當的措施，我們會研議，而且現在已經在想辦法，明年看能不能就開始來做。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:35:00.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:35:10.691000+08:00","text":"好，學校律師這個制度我想很重要，確實如次長剛剛講的，主觀感受有時候各有不同，所以訂定明確的標準我覺得很重要。是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:35:11.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:35:30.865000+08:00","text":"其中今天要特別提出來討論的是有關於最早在1995年定教師法的時候，裡面就有「教學不力」這個法律名詞，我們在修教師法的時候，當時「教學不力」是不是要納進來停解聘的調查程序當中，其實也多所討論。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:35:31.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:35:43.155000+08:00","text":"我今天要特別提醒次長，因為本來「教學不力」後面的流程你有一個專審會，專審會主要的制度是輔導，對不對？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:35:43.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:35:53.660000+08:00","text":"因為我希望他提升教學品質，假設真的「教學不力」，我要他改善、我要能夠輔導協助他，而後來你們帶入了校事會議的機制之後，前面就開始先調查了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:35:54.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:14.426000+08:00","text":"但是當時在修教師法的時候，其實立法院有一個附帶決議要求教育部針對「教學不力」做更明確的定義，結果我去把它翻出來看了，教育部在修法前後，對「教學不力」有沒有去做調整、有沒有去設定更明確的標準？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:15.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:15.586000+08:00","text":"沒有耶！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:16.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:21.987000+08:00","text":"你們只是把「教學不力」的定義從本來的12項改成11項，刪掉的1項就是「因重病」。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:22.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:31.729000+08:00","text":"其他例如「親師溝通不良，情節嚴重者」，請問「溝通不良」要怎麼定義？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:32.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:33.109000+08:00","text":"怎麼樣叫做「情節嚴重」？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:33.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:36.330000+08:00","text":"然後是「教學行為失當」，請問怎麼樣的行為叫做「失當」？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:39.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:36:43.835000+08:00","text":"還有「班級經營欠佳」，這個也叫「教學不力」，請問班級經營怎麼樣叫「欠佳」？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:36:44.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.160000+08:00","text":"立法院在2019年就已經要求教育部要去訂定更明確的標準，次長，當時您也是立法委員，而且也是這個附帶決議的連署人，所以我今天必須提醒教育部，你們並沒有依照當時立法院修法審查時所做的附帶決議去把「教學不力」定義得更明確。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.761000+08:00","text":"我請署長說明一下，好不好？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.901000+08:00","text":"好，請說明。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:08.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:24.234000+08:00","text":"委員講的這個的確非常重要，所以我們當年就依據附帶決議去找法制專家幫忙研議，在「前言」裡面做了一點跟以前不一樣的區隔，並且在條文內有不同的敘寫。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:24.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:32.579000+08:00","text":"但是委員講得很好，所以這一次在輔導管教的注意事項上，就要對這一類，包含老師的班級經營、輔導管教和教學情形……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:32.579000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:35.301000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:35.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:35.802000+08:00","text":"這都慢了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:35.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:37.544000+08:00","text":"2019年就要做的事，這在實務上你們比我們更清楚，定義不明確的時候，在實務上就會造成很多糾紛。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:37.544000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:38.544000+08:00","text":"會造成很大的困擾。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:37.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:55.104000+08:00","text":"最後一點就是我要拜託教育部的，有關教師的行政減量，這個教育部也很重視，你們也開了分區座談會，當時南投縣的教師有提出幾個建議，後來南投縣政府確實也公告了，例如教案不用再交了；課程計畫本來就是備審，結果一堆地方政府都把它搞成實質審查，來回修改就要花一堆時間！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:37:55.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:37:57.205000+08:00","text":"我現在要拜託教育部的是，國教署可不可以用行政指導的方式直接公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:16.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:23.098000+08:00","text":"因為好多老師都在tag他們的縣市首長，說：拜託一下，看到南投縣政府有這個公告，好羡慕！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:23.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:27.362000+08:00","text":"連我們的蔣萬安市長也都被老師tag，說：臺北市什麼時候要跟進？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:27.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:28.823000+08:00","text":"每個縣市的老師都在問。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:28.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:37.171000+08:00","text":"其實我們都認為這是對的事情，是要做的，教育部是不是可以趕快跟地方政府溝通，以行政指導的方式，有共識的部分就可以先行了？","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:37.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:50.478000+08:00","text":"有關委員講的這個，其實我們2個月前就處理了一波，但是委員特別講到地方政府應該有更明確態度的部分，我們來瞭解實務上他拿到那個函之後的具體做法是怎麼樣，因為現在到7月……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:50.478000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:51.478000+08:00","text":"不用再瞭解了啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:50.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.139000+08:00","text":"拜託一下，我們要讓他確實去落實，趕快來跟地方政府討論。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.139000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:53.139000+08:00","text":"我們就直接在這次的局處長會議來要求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.459000+08:00","text":"該發函的你們就發函。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"彭署長富源","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.559000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.639000+08:00","text":"謝謝次長，謝謝召委。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:52.659000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:53.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:38:57.159000+08:00","text":"謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢，請次長回座。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:38:57.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:39:01.173286+08:00","text":"下一位有請范雲委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1703,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時28分）謝謝主席，我請教育部張廖萬堅次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。今天我們的質詢主題是「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」，我想今天的討論緣起於2019年教師法的修法，我翻了那個時候的報紙、全版，當時報紙下了一個標題是教師與家長兩台火車對撞。對於教育來講，我們最希望的是教師、家長、學生、校方，大家在同一台列車上，才能夠安全地往前進。","2023年，在我進入立法院之前，教委會就辦過一場公聽會，我看當時洪維彬執行長指出，解聘辦法上路前後之差別他們感受到的是，第一個，過往學校在處理師生管教事件，首重的是輔導先行、溝通理解，有時候這可以迅速解決相關的爭議，不過他們感受到的是，教師解聘辦法上路之後，好像投訴案件是不分輕重大小，只要有投訴案，如果沒有調查報告、沒有懲處的審議，好像主管機關就不給他們解除列管，所以好像只要有投訴就要有結果出來。當時他們就建議，投訴案件應該要分流處理。直到昨天，全教總在記者會上面，我覺得指出的問題是一樣的，就是教師不是拒絕監督，而是當體制陷入了一個防衛的氛圍，有時候，調查的時間已經造成他們很大的心理壓力。","所以最重要的就是分流跟防止濫訴，教育部也看到這個問題，因此今年1月修辦法，最主要就是在解決這個問題，你們做了哪些調整？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想在書面報告裡面也提到了，包括取消匿名投訴，以及大小案的分流，增加輔佐人機制，還有很多相關的措施。上路之後我們也初步看到投訴案件減少，然後在分流之後，過去跟現在的投訴案件比起來降了大概55%，送到校事會議的剩下22%。所以我們是看那個數字的趨向，就是我們聽了各界意見，包括老師的意見，做了修正之後，初步是有感受到分流有造成那個結果。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個數字是有在減少，不過就拒絕濫訴，讓他的理由可以更明確，我覺得這個還是教育部要去協助校方的。我覺得我們可以參考幾個機制，第一個，司法機關其實有這個機制，例如我們的民事訴訟法、行政訴訟法都有明確定義什麼是濫訴，譬如基於惡意，你是來報復的，或是有不當目的、重大過失等等，有一個明確的定義，但這些都還是抽象的。所以法院在做的時候會有實務見解，依據過去的一些案例把它整理出來，如果是屬於這些案例的經驗，過去就已經判定他是濫訴了，那未來你只要進來的時候，我也許可以參考過去的解釋。","所以我是建議教育部，是不是可以整理及收集你們過去相關的這些裁判或決議，讓未來學校去判定時，因為學校也有壓力，我如果說這個是濫訴，人家說我吃案怎麼辦？所以怎麼樣讓它可以合理，我建議你們去收集相關資料，讓學校更明確地能夠去設定一個標準。","再來，像日本跟韓國有一個制度我覺得很不錯，就是學校律師。剛剛思瑤委員的質詢也提到，給教師支持、法律的支持也很重要。韓國也是這兩年才上路，其學校律師主要是給教師的支持系統，當老師遇到法律糾紛的時候，學校律師可以提供諮詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：日本的方式，他的學校律師是由日本的律師聯合會，等於是律師公會主動跟校園合作、簽約，他的角色比較像是調解人，還是要以兒童的最佳利益為主來協助學校，就是學校在很多實際案件發生之前，有發生相關的狀況，可能學校律師就可以來協助。這部分教育部有沒有了解？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，剛才媒體也問我這個問題，在公聽會跟座談會的時候也有老師或團體提到有這樣的一個機制，所以我當時也說我支持，我們會來研議。在我們教師法修法之後，雖然有把教師心理諮商輔導的這個建置納進去，那我們現在是不是也可以仿照韓國、日本的模式，跟公協會一起合作或者跟縣市政府，看他們能不能提供一些也比較有專業素養的，譬如我們現在有一些講習的……不適任教師的那些人才庫裡面……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，我覺得教育部可以趕快研議。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們也在研議……"],["吳委員沛憶：甚至我們主動跟律師公會、律師聯合會來討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，我們朝這個方向會來努力、協助，這一部分我想就是衡平，不要讓老師覺得好像只要被投訴就是有罪推定，雖然有的在外界不認為是這樣，但他們會有那種感受。所以如果比較熟悉校園法令的律師能夠在各縣市都建立諮詢系統，甚至遇到一些法律事件的時候能夠幫他們爭取權益，我覺得這是一個衡平且適當的措施，我們會研議，而且現在已經在想辦法，明年看能不能就開始來做。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，學校律師這個制度我想很重要，確實如次長剛剛講的，主觀感受有時候各有不同，所以訂定明確的標準我覺得很重要。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：其中今天要特別提出來討論的是有關於最早在1995年定教師法的時候，裡面就有「教學不力」這個法律名詞，我們在修教師法的時候，當時「教學不力」是不是要納進來停解聘的調查程序當中，其實也多所討論。我今天要特別提醒次長，因為本來「教學不力」後面的流程你有一個專審會，專審會主要的制度是輔導，對不對？因為我希望他提升教學品質，假設真的「教學不力」，我要他改善、我要能夠輔導協助他，而後來你們帶入了校事會議的機制之後，前面就開始先調查了。但是當時在修教師法的時候，其實立法院有一個附帶決議要求教育部針對「教學不力」做更明確的定義，結果我去把它翻出來看了，教育部在修法前後，對「教學不力」有沒有去做調整、有沒有去設定更明確的標準？沒有耶！你們只是把「教學不力」的定義從本來的12項改成11項，刪掉的1項就是「因重病」。其他例如「親師溝通不良，情節嚴重者」，請問「溝通不良」要怎麼定義？怎麼樣叫做「情節嚴重」？然後是「教學行為失當」，請問怎麼樣的行為叫做「失當」？還有「班級經營欠佳」，這個也叫「教學不力」，請問班級經營怎麼樣叫「欠佳」？","立法院在2019年就已經要求教育部要去訂定更明確的標準，次長，當時您也是立法委員，而且也是這個附帶決議的連署人，所以我今天必須提醒教育部，你們並沒有依照當時立法院修法審查時所做的附帶決議去把「教學不力」定義得更明確。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我請署長說明一下，好不好？"],["吳委員沛憶：好，請說明。"],["彭署長富源：委員講的這個的確非常重要，所以我們當年就依據附帶決議去找法制專家幫忙研議，在「前言」裡面做了一點跟以前不一樣的區隔，並且在條文內有不同的敘寫。但是委員講得很好，所以這一次在輔導管教的注意事項上，就要對這一類，包含老師的班級經營、輔導管教和教學情形……"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝署長。","這都慢了啦！2019年就要做的事，這在實務上你們比我們更清楚，定義不明確的時候，在實務上就會造成很多糾紛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：會造成很大的困擾。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後一點就是我要拜託教育部的，有關教師的行政減量，這個教育部也很重視，你們也開了分區座談會，當時南投縣的教師有提出幾個建議，後來南投縣政府確實也公告了，例如教案不用再交了；課程計畫本來就是備審，結果一堆地方政府都把它搞成實質審查，來回修改就要花一堆時間！我現在要拜託教育部的是，國教署可不可以用行政指導的方式直接公告？因為好多老師都在tag他們的縣市首長，說：拜託一下，看到南投縣政府有這個公告，好羡慕！連我們的蔣萬安市長也都被老師tag，說：臺北市什麼時候要跟進？每個縣市的老師都在問。其實我們都認為這是對的事情，是要做的，教育部是不是可以趕快跟地方政府溝通，以行政指導的方式，有共識的部分就可以先行了？"],["彭署長富源：有關委員講的這個，其實我們2個月前就處理了一波，但是委員特別講到地方政府應該有更明確態度的部分，我們來瞭解實務上他拿到那個函之後的具體做法是怎麼樣，因為現在到7月……"],["吳委員沛憶：不用再瞭解了啦！拜託一下，我們要讓他確實去落實，趕快來跟地方政府討論。"],["彭署長富源：我們就直接在這次的局處長會議來要求。"],["吳委員沛憶：該發函的你們就發函。"],["彭署長富源：對，沒錯，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝。謝謝次長，謝謝召委。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢，請次長回座。","下一位有請范雲委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-17","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","蔡春綢","葉元之","吳思瑤","吳沛憶","范雲","張雅琳","洪孟楷","王安祥","羅廷瑋","羅智強","盧縣一","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩","何欣純","黃捷","林倩綺"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}