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次長"},{"start":16.101,"end":41.399,"text":"校園校事會議相對來講重要那另外我也想要關注一個議題就是霸凌案件也很重要那這是我們黨團跟我們教育部相關所資的一個資料那我把它彙整為一個圖來看一下我想第一就是通報的案件到2024年那當然2025年教育部也有提供不過我沒有把它給放進去2025年的通報案件是4140件"},{"start":43.62,"end":66.332,"text":"確認有360件那調核有726件我想還是再一次跟次長請教一下次長你認為看到這樣的一個趨勢圖喔是過去這2016年到2024年霸凌的事件飆升還是說其實原本可能就很多但只是過去沒有比較好的一個通報或管理機制導致於是說以前可能有很多黑數"},{"start":66.992,"end":86.177,"text":"委員分析都有可能啦就是說當然這幾年我們在校園防治霸凌部分不斷在宣導然後也建立了各種機制管道對管道所以當然有的過去就可能就算了他也不通報那現在我們比較會積極鼓勵他去通報那通報之後經過調查成案的"},{"start":86.977,"end":105.69,"text":"是那個比例喔我不是說還是蠻高的但是就是說它比例是通報的數多但它成案的比例比較少可是你看一下成案的數從2016年的167一直到現在它持續增加就說那就變成是說校園霸凌事件其實過去這十年裡面並沒有"},{"start":106.571,"end":123.848,"text":"下降的趨勢以前可能在那個年代大家沒被檢舉嘛沒有那麼積極去面對所以它可能是很多黑數嘛所以很多人會講是說為什麼現在鐵拳教育那麼的紅是大家有共鳴因為看到好像每個人從小到大都有聽過霸凌的事件或者是說都可能有被霸凌的經驗是那"},{"start":125.149,"end":150.126,"text":"我們想請教韓國這當然是他上次是可以公錯之前本席也都提出來韓國在2025年他們有幾個頂尖大學先率先宣布是說他們要把它變成是校園霸凌曾經有校園霸凌的部分他拒收這個學生那2026年由韓國的教育部直接明訂法令就是有納入校園霸凌扣分制度"},{"start":151.087,"end":169.864,"text":"就是變成是說全國一體適用那甚至韓國教育部直接要求他們的譬如說師範大學、師範院校霸凌玲瓏人過去有這樣子的霸凌紀錄的他就不能接收當成是師範院校的學生也就是他不要變成是有霸凌紀錄的人未來當老師的意思對"},{"start":170.905,"end":189.967,"text":"那我們是不是,我現在在講,因為畢竟韓國跟我們國情、民情部分有相似,當然韓國的職場霸凌以及性別霸凌,我們普遍來講是比我們嚴重,可是如果說他們現在有建立這樣的一個制度了,我們是不是能夠了解一下說這樣制度到底有沒有幫助?"},{"start":191.048,"end":212.821,"text":"作為我們未來參考,因為本席一直以來很重要,你看如果2016年曾經霸凌別人的人,那他現在可能到現在2026年,他已經大學畢業了,已經投入職場了。那我們能夠允許曾經有霸凌記錄的人,然後他還可以搖身一變轉學了,然後就洗白,然後變成又還可以錄取頂尖大學。"},{"start":213.982,"end":239.88,"text":"我想剛才委員提到韓國的目前的一個實施的狀況我們會持續收集國際間這個意見然後我們會請中央學院來評估怎麼樣來建立這個防制霸凌那個學校的招生入學會不會要不要去剝奪他的那個入學權益這個我們會持續收集國際各國之間的狀況很現實的就是教育現場的狀況我們都說霸凌零容忍"},{"start":240.1,"end":262.518,"text":"但是如果說他在A學校學生霸凌完之後被寄兩大過他可能怕三大過畢業退學他馬上轉到B學校去他那個就重新計算了那那個紀錄可能就沒有跟著他走那在考大學的時候他現在申請入學推薦面試這個紀錄就不再顯示上面那變成是說他就是變一個洗白機制"},{"start":263.519,"end":272.824,"text":"那你認不認同我覺得這樣有兩個部分你認不認同如果說我們有一個類校園霸凌假設我現在講的是說已經成案確定的那這是不是應該要有一些紀錄"},{"start":274.246,"end":295.838,"text":"因為18歲以前大概高中以下的孩子他的記錄有他的隱私的問題隱私權問題所以在實施上我們可能要比較小心謹慎所以我剛才有跟委員回答是說所以是現在沒有做的原因嘛其實你在講現在沒有做的原因但是就造成我剛剛提到一個弊端一個漏洞就是他在A學校霸凌了然後被記一大過兩大過"},{"start":297.139,"end":304.211,"text":"他只要兩大過兩小過之前沒有滿三大過退學即便是現在滿三大過可能不一定退學那他轉到B學校"},{"start":305.498,"end":330.908,"text":"重新來然後就變成是說他在申請入學的時候是沒有這樣的一個記錄的所以我才會提出來說韓國他們已經2026年正式入法有一個校園霸凌扣分制度那我們也許參考他的一個制度去標籤化但是怎麼樣也應該要讓該付出的這種有過去有霸凌行為也不應該就讓他轉學的時候洗白嘛"},{"start":332.301,"end":348.343,"text":"所以我覺得這就是一個折衷但是我們現在要看孰輕孰重但最重點不是說要讓他變成是完全記錄沒有辦法洗白可是我們也應該要建立一個制度是讓學生知道你要為自己的行為負責還有更重要不能霸凌別人"},{"start":348.723,"end":377.299,"text":"我想委員的意見我們會尊重我們也會持續收集因為之前那個學黨裡面在提到那個也有提到說那個學生就是高中階段他的獎懲紀錄要不要納入那個學習歷程要不要有加課分制度當時有很多專家覺得意見不一樣所以業務大會跟我講說我們再來我們持續來收集好 那市長我就請教你可以認同是說如果他現在自己兩大過然後轉學到B學校之後他那兩大過就"},{"start":377.979,"end":392.733,"text":"高中的話好像不會這樣可以接受嗎高中不是義務教育高中是免費教育高中的部分有這樣子嗎因為現在現場的連市長可能都不一定那麼清楚就代表本席接收到的部分以及我們現在教育部到底針對這一個"},{"start":394.514,"end":416.862,"text":"被記大過一定是也經過審視合格之後才會被記錄除非是他有一些銷過的記錄啦有一些很銷過的記錄有銷過記錄好那本席現在在講如果說有銷過記錄你是變成是帳面上就沒有但是他連那個歷程我們連臉書都有文章都有編輯記錄了照理講你也應該要有相關的記錄我不是說不讓學生有補償"},{"start":418.023,"end":442.485,"text":"如果假設他真的因為一時犯錯而造成他被記大過他有後續功過相抵但他不是就完全不見嘛他照理講應該是說他有記一大過但他有兩小功等等的但是他的記錄是延續那在審查的時候可以去做一個公平的檢視好 我有一個意見我們來納入不應該是說A學校被記了大過然後我轉學到B學校"},{"start":443.246,"end":471.739,"text":"全部就不見那如果說他在B學校申請的時候然後老師看可能就變成是說學生的成績其實這就是為什麼韓國他們爆發很嚴重的一個霸凌事件結束之後他轉到B學生轉到B學校還申請到頂見大學讓全國民眾滑爛嘛我覺得這就是他算知識可以工作的一個原因本期今天特別提出來就是希望教育部應該要檢視這過去可能會有漏洞"},{"start":472.34,"end":475.693,"text":"我們不希望因為這樣的漏洞而造成說霸凌者還可以"},{"start":476.843,"end":502.071,"text":"喔 他可以 這個記錄可以消除那這樣子其實莫名其妙上也是一個不公平嘛 是吧好 我們來演繹 好好 次長對不起 再一分鐘就好啦因為教室會議的部分 我想確認一下我有看到是說我們現在修正受理案件機制是校長聘請外部調查人才庫的專業人員是那這個專業人員的相關費用是學校這邊來學校支付 學校支付學校吸收 對好"},{"start":502.671,"end":527.771,"text":"那他有規定他的身份啦 就是說我們要補出來譬如說他要有一個教師身份 一個家長代表身份然後一個第三個公眾人士我現在確認是說人才庫的專業人員但本席 我想可能很多委員都有接受到這樣的反應因為有好幾個家長會 已經有跟本席反應我就提出來 我覺得這可能也是我們後續修法的一個參考就是說 他講說"},{"start":528.992,"end":555.944,"text":"變成是外部的調查委員是要由學校去籌錢去資益我們有補助有補助但是還是學校要部分吸收那就變成是什麼狀況就變成是說學校會拜託說不要有太多的通報案件因為它就變成是說它的這個費用就增加然後甚至校長就去拜託家長會說請家長會幫忙募款我覺得某種程度上這樣就變成是我們的美意"},{"start":557.305,"end":571.1,"text":"這當然說美意就是說有外部調查人員這當然就是說有一個外部機制來去做檢核但是變成轉嫁的成本又到這個家長會學校身上然後造成說他們就不希望有太多的案件"},{"start":572.512,"end":597.178,"text":"市長有沒有這樣的狀況還是說我們還是修法做個檢討好不好我們會檢討啦好不好是不是在這個之前還會有一個比較好的一個輔導機制或者調和機制能夠如果這是很小的事情的話根本也連這個都不需要去進入這樣的一個調查是甚至有家長委員他們就講是說那能不能外部調查人員的這個資格還是考什麼證照他們能不能協助來考證照"},{"start":599.077,"end":623.947,"text":"來去做這樣子的這當然就是因為本席有接到這樣的一個成績而且不只一間學校好幾間學校都有反應就是說這樣的錢變成是說他們要去籌錯那感覺好像就是成本又轉嫁到學校身上OK 我們在7月上旬會會針對這個事情跟地方縣市政府什麼來討論好 那也一併把本席這一個疑問跟課題也納入討論並且尋求解決之道好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":627.71,"end":629.035,"text":"好 謝謝洪孟楷委員的資訊"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:09:57.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:09:58.060000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝，麻煩請張廖次長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T12:09:58.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:09:58.620000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:09:58.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T12:09:59.620000+08:00","text":"委員好。好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:09:58.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:10:13.146000+08:00","text":"次長，校園校事會議相對來講重要，另外，我也想要關注一個議題，就是霸凌案件也很重要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:10:14.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:10:21.332000+08:00","text":"這是我們黨團跟教育部索資的相關資料，我把它彙整為一個圖，來看一下。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:10:22.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:10:37.002000+08:00","text":"第一，到2024年的通報案件，當然2025年的教育部也有提供，不過我沒有把它放進去，2025年的通報案件是4,140件，確認有360件，調和有726件。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:10:37.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:10:56.332000+08:00","text":"我想還是再一次跟次長請教一下，次長，看到這樣一個趨勢圖，你認為是過去2016年到2024年霸凌事件飆升，還是原本可能就很多，只是過去沒有比較好的通報或管理機制，導致於以前可能有很多黑數？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:10:56.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:05.594000+08:00","text":"委員分析的都有可能，當然這幾年我們在防制校園霸凌部分不斷在宣導，也建立了各種機制……管道。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:06.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:24.022000+08:00","text":"對，管道，所以當然過去有的可能就算了，也不通報，現在我們比較會積極鼓勵他去通報，通報之後，經過調查，成案的還是蠻高的，但是通報的數多，成案的比例就比較少。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:24.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:27.264000+08:00","text":"可是你看成案數從2016年的167……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:27.264000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:28.264000+08:00","text":"對，還是將近兩倍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:28.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:30.567000+08:00","text":"一直到現在，持續增加……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:30.567000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:31.567000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:31.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:37.312000+08:00","text":"就是校園霸凌事件過去這十年裡面並沒有下降的趨勢，反而變得……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:37.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:43.258000+08:00","text":"可能以前那個年代，大家沒檢舉，沒有那麼積極去面對，所以有很多黑數。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:43.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:11:53.668000+08:00","text":"所以很多人就講，為什麼現在「鐵拳教育」那麼紅，大家有共鳴，因為好像每個人從小到大都有聽過霸凌事件，或者是都可能有被霸凌的經驗。是。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:11:55.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:12:10.760000+08:00","text":"我們想請教，在韓國，這當然是他山之石，可以攻錯，之前本席也都有提出來，韓國2025年有幾個頂尖大學率先宣布，曾經有校園霸凌的學生就拒收。對、對。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:12:13.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:12:39.864000+08:00","text":"2026年由韓國的教育部直接明定法令，納入校園霸凌扣分制度，就變成是全國一體適用，甚至韓國教育部直接要求他們的師範大學、師範院校霸凌零容忍，過去有霸凌紀錄的，就不能接收成師範院校的學生，也就是不要讓有霸凌紀錄者未來當老師的意思。對。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:12:42.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:12:52.979000+08:00","text":"我現在在講，因為畢竟韓國與我們的國情、民情部分相似，當然，韓國的職場霸凌以及性別霸凌，普遍來講，是比我們嚴重……對。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:12:53.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:12:59.947000+08:00","text":"可是如果他們現在有建立這樣的制度了，我們是不是能夠了解一下這樣的制度到底有沒有幫助……可以。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:01.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:13:03.750000+08:00","text":"作為我們未來的參考，因為本席一直以為很重要。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:04.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:13:22.801000+08:00","text":"你看，2016年曾經霸凌別人的人到現在2026年已經大學畢業了，已經投入職場了，我們能夠允許曾經有霸凌紀錄的人還可以搖身一變，轉學了就洗白，還可以錄取頂尖大學？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:24.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:13:45.657000+08:00","text":"剛才委員提到韓國目前實施的狀況，我們會持續蒐集國際間的意見，我們會請專家學者來評估，怎麼樣來建立這個防制霸凌的機制，對於學校的招生，要不要去剝奪他的入學權益，這個我們會持續蒐集國際各國實施的狀況。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:45.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:13:48.399000+08:00","text":"次長，很現實的就是教育現場的狀況……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:48.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:13:48.399000+08:00","text":"我了解。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:13:48.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:14:12.498000+08:00","text":"我們都說霸凌零容忍，但是如果這個學生在A學校霸凌，之後被記兩大過，他可能怕被記三大過退學，馬上轉到B學校去，那個紀錄可能就沒有跟著他走，就重新計算，在考大學的時候，他申請入學推甄面試，那個紀錄就不顯示在上面，它變成是一個洗白機制。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:14:14.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:14:22.824000+08:00","text":"我覺得這樣有兩個部分，你認不認同，如果我們有一個類校園霸凌……我現在講的是已經成案確定的是不是應該要有紀錄？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:14:24.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:14:36.513000+08:00","text":"因為18歲以前（大概高中以下）孩子的這個紀錄有隱私權的問題，在實施上，我們可能要比較小心謹慎，所以我剛才有跟委員回應……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:14:36.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:15:01.040000+08:00","text":"對，這是現在沒有做的原因，你在講的是現在沒有做的原因，但是就造成我剛剛提到的弊端及漏洞，就是他在A學校霸凌，之後被記一大過或兩大過，他只要沒有滿三大過退學，現在即便滿三大過，可能也不一定退學，他轉到B學校，重新來，就變成他在申請入學的時候，是沒有這樣的紀錄。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:15:01.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:15:20.708000+08:00","text":"所以我才會提出來，韓國2026年已經正式入法，有校園霸凌扣分制度，我們也許參考他的這個制度，去標籤化，但是怎麼樣也不應該讓這種過去有霸凌行為的轉學之後洗白。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:15:22.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:15:38.323000+08:00","text":"我覺得這就是一個折衷，我們現在要看孰輕孰重，最重點不是要讓他紀錄完全沒有辦法洗白，可是我們也應該要建立一個制度，讓學生知道要為自己的行為負責，還有更重要的是不能霸凌別人！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:15:39.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:00.535000+08:00","text":"是，委員的意見我們會尊重，我們也會持續蒐集，因為之前討論學檔的時候，也有提到，高中階段學生的獎懲紀錄要不要納入學習歷程、要不要有加扣分制度，當時有很多專家學者的意見不一樣，所以業務單位跟我說我們持續來蒐集。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:01.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:07.279000+08:00","text":"次長，我請教，你可以認同如果他現在記兩大過，然後轉學到B學校之後，他那兩大過就不見了？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:07.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:10.522000+08:00","text":"高中的話好像不會這樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:10.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:11.402000+08:00","text":"可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:11.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:15.326000+08:00","text":"高中不是義務教育，高中是免費教育，高中的部分有這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:15.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:28.976000+08:00","text":"現在現場連次長可能都不一定那麼清楚，就代表本席接收到的部分，以及現在教育部針對這一個狀況，被記大過一定也是經過審視合格之後才會被記大過。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:28.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:30.756000+08:00","text":"對，除非他有一些銷過的紀錄。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:33.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:16:55.269000+08:00","text":"本席現在再講，如果說有銷過紀錄，變成是帳面上沒有，但是他連那個歷程都沒有了，我們連臉書的文章都有編輯紀錄了，照理講你也應該要有相關的紀錄，我不是說不讓學生有補救的機會，假設他真的因為一時犯錯而造成他被記大過，他後續有功過相抵，但不是就完全不見嘛！","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:16:55.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:06.260000+08:00","text":"照理講應該是說他有記一大過，但他有兩小功等等的，他的紀錄是延續的，如此在審查的時候可以去做公平的檢視。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:07.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:08.261000+08:00","text":"委員的意見我們來納入。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:08.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:20.549000+08:00","text":"但不應該是在A學校被記了大過，然後他轉學到B學校就全部不見，這樣他從B學校提出申請的時候，老師看的可能就變成是學生的成績。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:20.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:32.455000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼韓國他們爆發很嚴重的一個霸凌事件結束之後，學生轉到B學校，還申請到頂尖大學，讓全國民眾譁然嘛！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:33.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:50.904000+08:00","text":"這就是他山之石可以攻錯，本席今天特別提出來，就是希望教育部應該要檢視，這過去可能會有漏洞，我們不希望因為這樣的漏洞而造成霸凌者的紀錄還可以消除，這樣子其實某種程度上也是一個不公平嘛！","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:51.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:52.425000+08:00","text":"好，我們來研議。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:53.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:17:54.805000+08:00","text":"次長，對不起，再1分鐘就好了。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:17:55.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:09.390000+08:00","text":"關於校事會議的部分我想確認一下，我有看到你們現在修正受理案件機制，是校長聘請外部調查人才庫的專業人員，那麼這個專業人員的相關費用是學校這邊來……","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:09.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:09.570000+08:00","text":"學校支付。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:09.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:11.191000+08:00","text":"學校吸收？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:12.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:22.319000+08:00","text":"對，有規定他的身分，我們有補助的，譬如說他要有一個教師代表身分，還有一個家長代表身分，還有一個第三方公正人士。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:22.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:42.214000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，我現在確認的是人才庫的專業人員，但我想可能很多委員都有接受到這樣的反映，因為有好幾個家長會已經有跟本席反映，我就提出來，我覺得這可能也是我們後續修法的一個參考，他們說外部的調查委員變成是要由學校去籌錢去支應。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:43.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:44.154000+08:00","text":"我們有補助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:44.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:18:49.737000+08:00","text":"有補助，但是學校還是要部分吸收，那就會變成什麼狀況？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:18:49.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:19:02.322000+08:00","text":"就變成學校會拜託說不要有太多的通報案件，因為就變成他的這個費用會增加，甚至校長就去拜託家長會，請家長會幫忙募款。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:19:03.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:19:23.672000+08:00","text":"某種程度上，這樣就變成我們有外部調查人員的美意，有一個外部機制去檢核，但是變成成本又轉嫁到家長會、學校身上，造成他們不希望有太多的案件，次長，有沒有這樣的狀況？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:19:24.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:19:26.613000+08:00","text":"還是修法做個檢討，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:19:26.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:19:38.516000+08:00","text":"我們會檢討，就是在這之前還會有一個比較好的輔導機制或者調和機制，如果這是很小的事情的話，根本都不需要進入這樣的調查。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:19:38.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:19:47.158000+08:00","text":"是，甚至有家長委員就講，外部調查人員的資格，還是要考什麼證照，他們能不能協助來考證照？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:19:51.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:02.682000+08:00","text":"因為本席有接到這樣的陳情，而且不只一間學校，好幾間學校都有反映變成是他們要去籌措這些錢，感覺好像是成本又轉嫁到學校身上。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:20:03.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:09.365000+08:00","text":"OK，我們在7月上旬會針對這個事情跟地方縣市政府首長來討論。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-24T12:20:09.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:13.947000+08:00","text":"好，那也一併把本席的這一個疑問跟課題納入討論，並且尋求解決之道，好嗎？謝謝。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:20:17.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:18.333000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T12:20:18.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:19.015000+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，請次長回座。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T12:20:19.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T12:20:23.515000+08:00","text":"下一位有請王安祥委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1856,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時9分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請張廖次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。次長，校園校事會議相對來講重要，另外，我也想要關注一個議題，就是霸凌案件也很重要。","這是我們黨團跟教育部索資的相關資料，我把它彙整為一個圖，來看一下。第一，到2024年的通報案件，當然2025年的教育部也有提供，不過我沒有把它放進去，2025年的通報案件是4,140件，確認有360件，調和有726件。我想還是再一次跟次長請教一下，次長，看到這樣一個趨勢圖，你認為是過去2016年到2024年霸凌事件飆升，還是原本可能就很多，只是過去沒有比較好的通報或管理機制，導致於以前可能有很多黑數？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員分析的都有可能，當然這幾年我們在防制校園霸凌部分不斷在宣導，也建立了各種機制……"],["洪委員孟楷：管道。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，管道，所以當然過去有的可能就算了，也不通報，現在我們比較會積極鼓勵他去通報，通報之後，經過調查，成案的還是蠻高的，但是通報的數多，成案的比例就比較少。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是你看成案數從2016年的167……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，還是將近兩倍。"],["洪委員孟楷：一直到現在，持續增加……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是校園霸凌事件過去這十年裡面並沒有下降的趨勢，反而變得……"],["張廖次長萬堅：可能以前那個年代，大家沒檢舉，沒有那麼積極去面對，所以有很多黑數。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以很多人就講，為什麼現在「鐵拳教育」那麼紅，大家有共鳴，因為好像每個人從小到大都有聽過霸凌事件，或者是都可能有被霸凌的經驗。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們想請教，在韓國，這當然是他山之石，可以攻錯，之前本席也都有提出來，韓國2025年有幾個頂尖大學率先宣布，曾經有校園霸凌的學生就拒收。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：2026年由韓國的教育部直接明定法令，納入校園霸凌扣分制度，就變成是全國一體適用，甚至韓國教育部直接要求他們的師範大學、師範院校霸凌零容忍，過去有霸凌紀錄的，就不能接收成師範院校的學生，也就是不要讓有霸凌紀錄者未來當老師的意思。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在在講，因為畢竟韓國與我們的國情、民情部分相似，當然，韓國的職場霸凌以及性別霸凌，普遍來講，是比我們嚴重……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：可是如果他們現在有建立這樣的制度了，我們是不是能夠了解一下這樣的制度到底有沒有幫助……"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：作為我們未來的參考，因為本席一直以為很重要。你看，2016年曾經霸凌別人的人到現在2026年已經大學畢業了，已經投入職場了，我們能夠允許曾經有霸凌紀錄的人還可以搖身一變，轉學了就洗白，還可以錄取頂尖大學？"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才委員提到韓國目前實施的狀況，我們會持續蒐集國際間的意見，我們會請專家學者來評估，怎麼樣來建立這個防制霸凌的機制，對於學校的招生，要不要去剝奪他的入學權益，這個我們會持續蒐集國際各國實施的狀況。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，很現實的就是教育現場的狀況……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都說霸凌零容忍，但是如果這個學生在A學校霸凌，之後被記兩大過，他可能怕被記三大過退學，馬上轉到B學校去，那個紀錄可能就沒有跟著他走，就重新計算，在考大學的時候，他申請入學推甄面試，那個紀錄就不顯示在上面，它變成是一個洗白機制。我覺得這樣有兩個部分，你認不認同，如果我們有一個類校園霸凌……我現在講的是已經成案確定的是不是應該要有紀錄？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為18歲以前（大概高中以下）孩子的這個紀錄有隱私權的問題，在實施上，我們可能要比較小心謹慎，所以我剛才有跟委員回應……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，這是現在沒有做的原因，你在講的是現在沒有做的原因，但是就造成我剛剛提到的弊端及漏洞，就是他在A學校霸凌，之後被記一大過或兩大過，他只要沒有滿三大過退學，現在即便滿三大過，可能也不一定退學，他轉到B學校，重新來，就變成他在申請入學的時候，是沒有這樣的紀錄。所以我才會提出來，韓國2026年已經正式入法，有校園霸凌扣分制度，我們也許參考他的這個制度，去標籤化，但是怎麼樣也不應該讓這種過去有霸凌行為的轉學之後洗白。我覺得這就是一個折衷，我們現在要看孰輕孰重，最重點不是要讓他紀錄完全沒有辦法洗白，可是我們也應該要建立一個制度，讓學生知道要為自己的行為負責，還有更重要的是不能霸凌別人！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，委員的意見我們會尊重，我們也會持續蒐集，因為之前討論學檔的時候，也有提到，高中階段學生的獎懲紀錄要不要納入學習歷程、要不要有加扣分制度，當時有很多專家學者的意見不一樣，所以業務單位跟我說我們持續來蒐集。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我請教，你可以認同如果他現在記兩大過，然後轉學到B學校之後，他那兩大過就不見了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：高中的話好像不會這樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：可以接受嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：高中不是義務教育，高中是免費教育，高中的部分有這樣子嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：現在現場連次長可能都不一定那麼清楚，就代表本席接收到的部分，以及現在教育部針對這一個狀況，被記大過一定也是經過審視合格之後才會被記大過。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，除非他有一些銷過的紀錄。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在再講，如果說有銷過紀錄，變成是帳面上沒有，但是他連那個歷程都沒有了，我們連臉書的文章都有編輯紀錄了，照理講你也應該要有相關的紀錄，我不是說不讓學生有補救的機會，假設他真的因為一時犯錯而造成他被記大過，他後續有功過相抵，但不是就完全不見嘛！照理講應該是說他有記一大過，但他有兩小功等等的，他的紀錄是延續的，如此在審查的時候可以去做公平的檢視。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的意見我們來納入。"],["洪委員孟楷：但不應該是在A學校被記了大過，然後他轉學到B學校就全部不見，這樣他從B學校提出申請的時候，老師看的可能就變成是學生的成績。這就是為什麼韓國他們爆發很嚴重的一個霸凌事件結束之後，學生轉到B學校，還申請到頂尖大學，讓全國民眾譁然嘛！這就是他山之石可以攻錯，本席今天特別提出來，就是希望教育部應該要檢視，這過去可能會有漏洞，我們不希望因為這樣的漏洞而造成霸凌者的紀錄還可以消除，這樣子其實某種程度上也是一個不公平嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們來研議。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，對不起，再1分鐘就好了。關於校事會議的部分我想確認一下，我有看到你們現在修正受理案件機制，是校長聘請外部調查人才庫的專業人員，那麼這個專業人員的相關費用是學校這邊來……"],["張廖次長萬堅：學校支付。"],["洪委員孟楷：學校吸收？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，有規定他的身分，我們有補助的，譬如說他要有一個教師代表身分，還有一個家長代表身分，還有一個第三方公正人士。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有問題，我現在確認的是人才庫的專業人員，但我想可能很多委員都有接受到這樣的反映，因為有好幾個家長會已經有跟本席反映，我就提出來，我覺得這可能也是我們後續修法的一個參考，他們說外部的調查委員變成是要由學校去籌錢去支應。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有補助。"],["洪委員孟楷：有補助，但是學校還是要部分吸收，那就會變成什麼狀況？就變成學校會拜託說不要有太多的通報案件，因為就變成他的這個費用會增加，甚至校長就去拜託家長會，請家長會幫忙募款。某種程度上，這樣就變成我們有外部調查人員的美意，有一個外部機制去檢核，但是變成成本又轉嫁到家長會、學校身上，造成他們不希望有太多的案件，次長，有沒有這樣的狀況？還是修法做個檢討，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會檢討，就是在這之前還會有一個比較好的輔導機制或者調和機制，如果這是很小的事情的話，根本都不需要進入這樣的調查。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，甚至有家長委員就講，外部調查人員的資格，還是要考什麼證照，他們能不能協助來考證照？因為本席有接到這樣的陳情，而且不只一間學校，好幾間學校都有反映變成是他們要去籌措這些錢，感覺好像是成本又轉嫁到學校身上。"],["張廖次長萬堅：OK，我們在7月上旬會針對這個事情跟地方縣市政府首長來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那也一併把本席的這一個疑問跟課題納入討論，並且尋求解決之道，好嗎？謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢，請次長回座。","下一位有請王安祥委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-17","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","蔡春綢","葉元之","吳思瑤","吳沛憶","范雲","張雅琳","洪孟楷","王安祥","羅廷瑋","羅智強","盧縣一","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩","何欣純","黃捷","林倩綺"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}