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有請次長有請次長"},{"start":8.404,"end":10.746,"text":"教師專業與程序正義共同營造友善安全有秩序的校園環境"},{"start":38.884,"end":62.155,"text":"因為上個禮拜羅廷偉召委有安排校事會議相關的公聽會今天我們又再次安排校事會議的專題報告最主要的原因就是因為校事會議從去年初一直到現在即便我們做了相關的修正跟重新的公佈"},{"start":63.035,"end":78.39,"text":"但是呢仍旧在校园里面引发很多的讨论那我们之所以会这么急迫一而再再而三的来安排也是因为我们希望上次所做的附带决议就是七月份"},{"start":79.011,"end":105.458,"text":"我们希望可以看到相关的一个重新的修订所以公聘会收整了很多学者专家的意见今天的专报我们也听到很多立法委员他们所带来的意见所以在这个地方我就是特别想要提醒教育部看起来目前我们的儿少权益跟教师的专业目前看起来好像是两相害"},{"start":106.238,"end":132.786,"text":"但是呢我們不一定要兩害相權取其輕啊我們應該是要尋求雙贏所以呢我覺得不管是事前的準備風險的控管那教育部堅守原則主動承擔風險其實都能夠達到一個尋求雙贏那我們既不要鐵拳教育也不應該花拳秀腿我覺得教育的專業我們的目的都是為了我們的孩子好"},{"start":133.306,"end":144.122,"text":"所以这是我们共同的目标那我特别就是想要在今天我也提出一些我希望重新去审视修进的部分我们都很清楚知道"},{"start":146.217,"end":170.555,"text":"108年的这个教师法修正它最主要的原因就是过去我们为了要解决不适任教师的问题我们是透过教评会但是我们发现那时候争议很多大家都会说怕失失相互或者是有同侪的压力或者是怕说什么对学生不公平之类的所以也讨论了很久"},{"start":171.235,"end":200.415,"text":"那108年的时候呢我知道教育部做了修正那时候我也还没进来但是我进来立法院的时候109年已经发布施行了就是有所谓的校事会议那这个校事会议我们虽然启动了去年我其实也主动要求要修法那也很谢谢教育部其实速度也很快1月初就发布那4月呢你们也做出了一个统计跟去年同期相比的资料我想说的是"},{"start":201.395,"end":220.228,"text":"其實不論如何雖然比例下降但是那是處理教師不是處理家長所以我其實也想要來看一下到底有了校事會議之後不當管教事件他的情況是如何我們可以看110年"},{"start":221.949,"end":224.532,"text":"2100多件111年2500多件112年4100多件1134 4500多件那次長你應該很了解"},{"start":236.587,"end":253.521,"text":"照理說我們是靈體法那我們也不斷的去強調不能夠做不當管教我們也有教師法照理說應該是越來越不會有不當管教的世界因為老師也沒那麼笨嘛"},{"start":254.821,"end":275.768,"text":"但是案件數卻越來越多這個就很奇怪所以這個就表示什麼呢大家講爛訴爛訴爛訴確實是會有爛訴的問題好那現在我覺得除了爛訴我們已經取消所謂的匿名檢舉不受理但是爛訴到底要不要究責次長您覺得"},{"start":279.54,"end":295.512,"text":"我認為濫訴的定義如果是故意為之的話那當然是應該要有責任所以我們在修訂的時候會處理到這個問題嗎惡意為之的話會處理到這個問題嗎因為這個我們法律上要去定義這個去追究可能要有法律授權"},{"start":296.172,"end":314.18,"text":"譬如說你要去對家長罰款或者採取一些法律行動所以我們當時也在想說怎麼樣進一步去落實保障教師工作權所以在那個法律平台也有建議說要修那個職業安全衛生法我們也覺得有道理"},{"start":314.42,"end":339.805,"text":"所以目前我們也在落實如果說有危害到老師的工作去侵犯他的工作權或者說去傷比如說我們講離線權你不斷在騷擾他影響他的那個職安的相關的法令他是可以受罰次長這個就是我們講的其實老師們的聲音也很多因為他們覺得說目前我們用辦法然後來去處理這麼嚴重的解聘的問題"},{"start":341.366,"end":364.007,"text":"就有一點像是駕牛車然後要上高速公路其實是非常不對等的所以您也提到了如果我們要處理爛速究責我們馬上又會去被詢問到說那到底這個法律上有沒有這樣的支撐所以我還是要再一次的講我希望雖然這個叫做辦法"},{"start":365.309,"end":386.085,"text":"教師法但是我還是希望我們在檢討的時候要廣邀各部會一起來做討論那我們來看一下問題所在你看看如果不涉及教師法中的解聘事項我們現在已經分流說要回到考核辦法但是"},{"start":386.605,"end":415.241,"text":"到底解聘辦法它到底涉及到底是什麼我們可以看到其實在教師解聘辦法的第二條我們可以看到第一項還有一二三款那個都是很明確違法的是法院認證的是直接解聘的這個我們就不討論但是呢在第四款的部分它有說涉及到本法第十四條等等的十五十六就是要依照校事會議嘛"},{"start":416.141,"end":435.88,"text":"沒有錯嘛但是我們再回頭看喔你看教師法14 15 16光是14條喔它是因於解聘且終身不得聘任為教師喔它有一個叫做我就舉一個例就好體罰或霸凌學生造成其身心嚴重傷害可是你看第15條"},{"start":438.566,"end":452.283,"text":"體罰或霸凌學生造成其身心侵害有解聘制必要但是當在第15條是一決一年至四年不得聘任為教師你有沒有覺得很混亂"},{"start":454.417,"end":483.472,"text":"有沒有 次長你有沒有覺得很混亂同樣的一個行為不同的處罰對 是不是很混亂這個就是我們講的嘛就是其實它很多的東西都定義不清甚至最難判斷的教學不力或不能升任工作這個到底要怎麼定義其實以前在108年以前就是因為這樣子所以我們很難處理可是我覺得走到現在"},{"start":484.312,"end":503.817,"text":"也沒有覺得更好這個就是為什麼現場有這麼多老師覺得很嚴重的這個問題所以我在這裡看到109年我們針對這種教學行為失當或者是親師溝通不良班級經營欠佳用了一個"},{"start":504.657,"end":528.414,"text":"第16條第一項第一款的解釋令結果呢我們還是沒有解決問題我這邊有準備幾個問題我本來想說問一問次長我隨便舉個簡單的幾個例子為了獎勵班上學生但是呢有AB兩位學生陰病未到那學生呢有兩位CDE三位呢表現不佳那沒有吃到冰棒"},{"start":529.014,"end":545.243,"text":"然後被投訴或者是說呢上課的時候自然老師被投訴說沒有教學生唱國歌又或者是說老師是單身還沒有生小孩會帶學生嗎之類的請教一下我剛剛講的那個獎勵學生"},{"start":551.536,"end":574.223,"text":"有的學生因病未到有的學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒被投訴不公平市長您覺得這個會不會成案這個當然不應該成案啊但是我告訴你就是成案了這之前啦對就是成案了這是115年1月12號其實我只是要表達啦真的新政"},{"start":575.646,"end":597.075,"text":"我們不是法官但是呢你看可以採自由心證所以到底委員判斷的來還是判斷不來我覺得這個問題很大其實追根究底他最核心的問題就是因為這些所以我特別希望說法規的模糊不清造成老師怨聲載道"},{"start":598.155,"end":618.63,"text":"那希望包括現在我們講的離線權、管教權我都希望說教育部要幫忙清楚的界定否則我覺得我們再怎麼修問題還是很多各位報告像離線權我們就明定就是上班時間內如果上班時間外"},{"start":622.193,"end":641.131,"text":"他如果是校安的緊急事件我們處理我們沒有回覆我們才去追究如果不是的話那其實是不究責的那輔導管教權也是因為經過前兩次的公聽座談會我們也在講說合理的輔導管教權剛才委員舉的例子那就是一個合理的輔導管教權那不法"},{"start":641.772,"end":656.005,"text":"那不罰的話如果學校又罰那這個我們一直在宣導113年我們有做一個修正有一些像違法阻卻我們剛才提到說委員局的很多例子譬如說宜蘭縣發生的那個老師被學生"},{"start":656.866,"end":684.496,"text":"那個戳肛門那個事件那個我們認為那個是違法不能這樣子做那老師可能動作大了一點那頂多是跟他口頭跟他講講這不應該處罰所以我們也在講說這個新的輔導管教辦法怎麼樣子去讓地方政府能夠落實就是說在教學現場裡面讓老師真的不會因為這樣而現在我們聽到的都是說老師變得很防禦性教學或防禦性的管理其實我們聽了都很難過"},{"start":685.556,"end":703.363,"text":"就希望說這個我們會再想辦法把這個再更精確化因為七月嘛大家都是希望要重新檢討嘛所以現在不管是公聽會學者專家或今天各個立委們的一個建議其實都是希望你們全部都要把它列入檢討"},{"start":704.724,"end":726.475,"text":"好不好所以我這邊的訴求就是我特別表達就是要明確定義違反教師法的行為樣態那至於我們的教師輔導與管教學生辦法這一些所謂的注意事項也要去界定好我們的管教權那我也希望能夠去建立學生行為指導與教師合法管教的實務手冊去比照偏遠地區學校校長教師久任獎金發給"},{"start":733.899,"end":736.801,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":765.32,"end":792.099,"text":"或者是减少这种所谓的自由心证那第三方机制的一个眼里我都希望能够去把它列入所以我们也要去比照近五年正式教师的离职情况也要去会诊然后去了解一下那我希望说刚才我讲的其实我们可以寻求双赢因为我们的目标都是为了我们的孩子好"},{"start":792.819,"end":820.823,"text":"所以在這個部分很希望我們七月真的要做出一個精進的對策那策進作為要出來那也許還是會有批評的聲浪但是我們都要虛心的檢討改進因為我們真的就是為了我們的教育也希望能夠走過這一波的教育校園的低迷的這樣一個氛圍那在這邊特別希望教育部要努力"},{"start":821.403,"end":822.731,"text":"好 謝謝次長謝謝委員 建議謝謝好 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:44.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:46:45.092000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:45.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:46:45.253000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:45.253000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:46:46.828500+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:46.828500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:46:48.404000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:48.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:46:50.726000+08:00","text":"剛才您做的專題報告，最後一段你是這麼說的，未來本部將持續觀察制度運作情形，滾動檢討相關措施，在保障兒少權益的同時，兼顧教師專業與程序正義，共同營造友善安全、有秩序的校園環境。","quality":0.316},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:46:50.726000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T11:47:18.884000+08:00","text":"沒錯嘛？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:47:18.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:48:33.340000+08:00","text":"因為上個禮拜羅廷瑋召委有安排校事會議相關的公聽會，今天我們又再次安排校事會議的專題報告，最主要的原因就是因為校事會議從去年初一直到現在，即便我們做了相關的修正跟重新的公布，但是仍舊在校園裡面引發很多的討論，我們之所以會這麼急迫，一而再再而三的來安排，也是因為我們希望上次所做的附帶決議，就是7月份我們希望可以看到相關的重新修訂，所以公聽會蒐整了很多學者專家的意見，今天的專報我們也聽到很多立法委員們所帶來的意見，所以在這個地方我就是特別想要提醒教育部，我們的兒少權益跟教師專業目前看起來好像是兩相害，但是我們不一定要兩害相權取其輕，我們應該是要尋求雙贏。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:48:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:48:54.628000+08:00","text":"我覺得不管是事前的準備、風險的控管，教育部堅守原則，主動承擔風險，其實都能夠達到尋求雙贏，我們既不要鐵拳教育，也不應該花拳繡腿，我覺得教育的專業，我們的目的都是為了我們的孩子好，所以這是我們共同的目標。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:48:55.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:49:30.535000+08:00","text":"我特別要在今天也提出一些我希望重新去審視修訂的部分，我們都很清楚知道108年的教師法修正，最主要的原因就是過去我們為了要解決不適任教師的問題，我們是透過教評會，但是我們發現那時候爭議很多，大家都說怕師師相護或者是有同儕的壓力，或者是怕對學生不公平之類的，所以也討論了很久。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:49:31.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:49:40.861000+08:00","text":"108年的時候我知道教育部做了修正，那時候我也還沒進來，但是我進來立法院的時候，109年已經發布施行了，就是有所謂的校事會議。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:49:42.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:49:58.914000+08:00","text":"這個校事會議我們雖然啟動了，去年我其實也主動要求要修法，那也很謝謝教育部，其實速度也很快，1月初就發布，4月你們也做出了統計，提出跟去年同期相比的資料。","quality":0.701},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:49:59.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:50:18.827000+08:00","text":"我想說的是，其實不論如何，雖然比例下降，但是那是處理教師，不是處理家長，所以我其實也想要來看一下，到底有了校事會議之後，不當管教事件的情況是如何。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:50:19.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:50:23.771000+08:00","text":"我們可以看到，110年兩千一百多件、111年兩千五百多件、112年四千一百多件、113年是四千五百多件。","quality":0.457},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:50:24.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:00.963000+08:00","text":"次長你應該很了解，我們是零體罰，我們也不斷地去強調不能夠做不當管教，我們也有教師法，照理說應該是越來越不會有不當管教的事件，因為老師也沒那麼笨，但是案件數卻越來越多，這個就很奇怪，所以這個就表示什麼呢？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:01.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:15.468000+08:00","text":"大家講濫訴、濫訴、濫訴，確實是會有濫訴的問題，現在我覺得除了濫訴，我們已經取消所謂的匿名檢舉不受理，但是濫訴到底要不要究責？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:15.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:15.748000+08:00","text":"次長，您覺得？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:19.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:25.204000+08:00","text":"我認為濫訴的定義如果是故意為之的話，那當然是應該要有責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:25.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:28.026000+08:00","text":"所以我們在修訂的時候會處理到這個嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:28.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:29.447000+08:00","text":"惡意為之的話。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:29.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:30.168000+08:00","text":"會處理到這個問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:30.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:51:55.680000+08:00","text":"因為我們法律上要去定義要追究，可能要有法律授權，譬如說你要去對家長罰款或者採取一些法律行動，所以我們當時也在想說怎麼樣進一步去落實保障教師工作權，也有人在法律平臺建議說要修職業安全衛生法，我們也覺得有道理，所以目前我們也在落實。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:51:55.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:52:08.263000+08:00","text":"如果說有危害到老師的工作，去侵犯他的工作權，或者說我們講離線權，你不斷在騷擾他，影響職安的相關法令，他是可以受罰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:52:08.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:52:27.411000+08:00","text":"次長，這個就是我們講的，其實老師們的聲音也很多，因為他們覺得目前我們用辦法去處理這麼嚴重的解聘問題，就有點像是駕牛車然後要上高速公路，其實是非常不對等的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:52:28.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:52:53.755000+08:00","text":"你也提到了，如果我們要處理濫訴究責，我們馬上又會被詢問到在法律上有沒有這樣的支撐，所以我還是要再一次的講，雖然這個叫做辦法，教師法，但是我還是希望我們在檢討的時候要廣邀各部會一起來做討論。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:52:53.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:53:11.208000+08:00","text":"那我們來看一下問題所在，你看看，如果不涉及教師法中的解聘事項，我們現在已經分流說要回到考核辦法，但是解聘辦法到底涉及到什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:53:12.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:53:35.221000+08:00","text":"其實在教師解聘辦法的第二條第一項第一、二、三款都是很明確違法的、是法院認證的、是直接解聘的，這個我們就不討論；但是在第四款的部分，它有說涉及到本法第十四條、第十五條、第十六條等等，就是要依照校事會議嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:53:36.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:53:36.642000+08:00","text":"沒有錯嘛！對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:53:37.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:12.283000+08:00","text":"但是我們再回頭看，你看教師法第十四條、第十五條、第十六條，光是第十四條，它是應予解聘，且終身不得聘任為教師，我舉一個例子就好，第十款是「體罰或霸凌學生，造成其身心嚴重侵害」；可是你看第十五條，第三款是「體罰或霸凌學生，造成其身心侵害，有解聘之必要」，第十五條敍文是「議決一年至四年不得聘任為教師」，你有沒有覺得很混亂？","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:14.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:14.597000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:14.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:18.099000+08:00","text":"次長，你有沒有覺得很混亂？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:18.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:19.580000+08:00","text":"同樣的一個行為，不同的處罰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:19.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:21.841000+08:00","text":"對，是不是很混亂？","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:21.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:22.721000+08:00","text":"這個就是我們講的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:24.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:34.707000+08:00","text":"其實它很多的東西都定義不清，甚至最難判斷的教學不力或不能勝任工作，這個到底要怎麼定義？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:34.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:54:52.414000+08:00","text":"其實在108年以前，就是因為這樣子所以我們很難處理，可是我覺得走到現在也沒有更好，這個就是為什麼現場有這麼多老師覺得這是很嚴重的問題。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:54:55.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:55:11.182000+08:00","text":"109年我們針對這種教學行為失當，或者是親師溝通不良、班級經營欠佳，用了第十六條第一項第一款的解釋令，結果我們還是沒有解決問題。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:55:11.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:55:30.895000+08:00","text":"我這邊有準備幾個問題，我本來想說問一問次長，我隨便舉簡單的幾個例子，例如：為了獎勵班上學生，但是有A、B兩位學生因病未到，還有C、D、E三位學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒，然後被投訴。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:55:30.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:55:37.979000+08:00","text":"或者是上課的時候，自然老師被投訴說沒有教學生唱國歌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:55:39.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:55:44.483000+08:00","text":"又或者是說老師是單身還沒有生小孩，會帶學生嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:55:44.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:55:59.158000+08:00","text":"請教一下，我剛剛講的那個獎勵學生，有的學生因病未到，有的學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒，被投訴不公平，次長，您覺得這個會不會成案？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:00.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:01.619000+08:00","text":"這個當然不應該成案啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:02.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:04.160000+08:00","text":"但是我告訴你，就是成案了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:05.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:05.880000+08:00","text":"這是之前的啦！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:06.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:07.481000+08:00","text":"對，就是成案了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:07.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:09.421000+08:00","text":"這是115年1月12日以前的。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:09.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:25.110000+08:00","text":"其實我只是要表達，真的心證……我們不是法官，但是你看這個可以採自由心證，所以委員到底判斷得來還是判斷不來？","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:25.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:26.991000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個問題很大！","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:27.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:56:53.587000+08:00","text":"其實追根究柢其最核心的問題就是因為這些，所以我特別希望，對於法規模糊不清造成老師怨聲載道的部分，包括現在我們講的離線權、管教權，希望教育部要幫忙清楚地界定，否則不管我們再怎麼修，問題還是很多，所以……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:56:55.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:57:09.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，像離線權，我們就是明定在上班時間內，如果在上班時間外有校安的緊急事件，我們要處理，如果沒有回復我們才會去追究，但若不是的話，其實是不究責的。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:57:10.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:57:20.911000+08:00","text":"輔導管教權也是因為經過前兩次的公聽座談會，我們也在講合理的輔導管教權，剛才委員舉的那個例子就是合理的輔導管教權，這就不罰。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:57:21.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:57:46.810000+08:00","text":"不罰的話，如果學校又罰，這個我們已經一直在宣導，因為113年我們有做一個修正，有一些像是違法阻卻事由，像是剛才委員舉的很多例子，譬如宜蘭縣發生老師被學生戳肛門的事件，我們認為那個是違法的，不能這樣子做，但老師可能動作大了一點，頂多就是跟他口頭講講，就是不應該處罰。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T11:57:46.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:08.137000+08:00","text":"所以我們也在講，這個新的輔導管教辦法要怎麼樣讓地方政府去落實，就是在教學現場裡面讓老師真的不會因為這樣而……現在我們聽到的都是，老師變得很防禦性教學或是做防禦性管理，其實我們聽了都很難過，我們會再想辦法把這個更明確化。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:08.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:09.318000+08:00","text":"次長，因為7月嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:09.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:12.039000+08:00","text":"大家都希望重新檢討嘛！是。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:12.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:25.404000+08:00","text":"所以現在不管是公聽會的學者專家或是今天各個立委們的建議，其實都希望你們全部都要把它列入檢討，好不好？好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:26.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:31.267000+08:00","text":"我這邊的訴求就是，我要特別表達，就是要明確定義違反教師法的行為樣態。好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:33.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:58:46.475000+08:00","text":"至於我們的教師輔導與管教學生辦法，這些所謂的注意事項也要去界定好我們的管教權，我也希望能夠建立學生行為指導與教師合法管教的實務手冊，比照偏遠地區學校校長、教師久任獎金發給的疑問那樣定期更新，希望這個教師合法管教的實務手冊也能夠定期更新。","quality":0.723},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:58:53.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T11:59:44.053000+08:00","text":"不只是要做程序的分流，還要做事件類型的分流，用明確化的制度標準取代人為的分流，甚至是我們一直訴求的，是不是要減少行政作業，或者是減少這種所謂的自由心證，並研擬列入第三方的機制，你們也要去比照近5年正式教師的離職情況，也要去彙整，然後去了解一下。","quality":0.324},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T11:59:46.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:00:21.947000+08:00","text":"對於剛才我講的，其實我們可以尋求雙贏，因為我們的目標都是為了孩子好，所以在這個部分很希望7月真的要做出一個精進的對策，策進作為要出來，也許還是會有批評的聲浪，但是你們都要虛心的檢討、改進，因為真的是為了我們的教育好，也希望能夠走過這一波校園低迷的氛圍，在這邊特別希望教育部要努力，謝謝次長。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-24T12:00:21.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:00:22.268000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的建議。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-24T12:00:22.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-24T12:00:22.429000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員）","start":"2026-06-24T12:00:22.929000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-24T12:00:26.929000+08:00","text":"接下來有請張雅琳委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1769,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時46分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：召委好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。剛才您做的專題報告，最後一段你是這麼說的，未來本部將持續觀察制度運作情形，滾動檢討相關措施，在保障兒少權益的同時，兼顧教師專業與程序正義，共同營造友善安全、有秩序的校園環境。沒錯嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為上個禮拜羅廷瑋召委有安排校事會議相關的公聽會，今天我們又再次安排校事會議的專題報告，最主要的原因就是因為校事會議從去年初一直到現在，即便我們做了相關的修正跟重新的公布，但是仍舊在校園裡面引發很多的討論，我們之所以會這麼急迫，一而再再而三的來安排，也是因為我們希望上次所做的附帶決議，就是7月份我們希望可以看到相關的重新修訂，所以公聽會蒐整了很多學者專家的意見，今天的專報我們也聽到很多立法委員們所帶來的意見，所以在這個地方我就是特別想要提醒教育部，我們的兒少權益跟教師專業目前看起來好像是兩相害，但是我們不一定要兩害相權取其輕，我們應該是要尋求雙贏。我覺得不管是事前的準備、風險的控管，教育部堅守原則，主動承擔風險，其實都能夠達到尋求雙贏，我們既不要鐵拳教育，也不應該花拳繡腿，我覺得教育的專業，我們的目的都是為了我們的孩子好，所以這是我們共同的目標。","我特別要在今天也提出一些我希望重新去審視修訂的部分，我們都很清楚知道108年的教師法修正，最主要的原因就是過去我們為了要解決不適任教師的問題，我們是透過教評會，但是我們發現那時候爭議很多，大家都說怕師師相護或者是有同儕的壓力，或者是怕對學生不公平之類的，所以也討論了很久。108年的時候我知道教育部做了修正，那時候我也還沒進來，但是我進來立法院的時候，109年已經發布施行了，就是有所謂的校事會議。這個校事會議我們雖然啟動了，去年我其實也主動要求要修法，那也很謝謝教育部，其實速度也很快，1月初就發布，4月你們也做出了統計，提出跟去年同期相比的資料。","我想說的是，其實不論如何，雖然比例下降，但是那是處理教師，不是處理家長，所以我其實也想要來看一下，到底有了校事會議之後，不當管教事件的情況是如何。我們可以看到，110年兩千一百多件、111年兩千五百多件、112年四千一百多件、113年是四千五百多件。次長你應該很了解，我們是零體罰，我們也不斷地去強調不能夠做不當管教，我們也有教師法，照理說應該是越來越不會有不當管教的事件，因為老師也沒那麼笨，但是案件數卻越來越多，這個就很奇怪，所以這個就表示什麼呢？大家講濫訴、濫訴、濫訴，確實是會有濫訴的問題，現在我覺得除了濫訴，我們已經取消所謂的匿名檢舉不受理，但是濫訴到底要不要究責？次長，您覺得？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我認為濫訴的定義如果是故意為之的話，那當然是應該要有責任。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們在修訂的時候會處理到這個嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：惡意為之的話。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會處理到這個問題嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為我們法律上要去定義要追究，可能要有法律授權，譬如說你要去對家長罰款或者採取一些法律行動，所以我們當時也在想說怎麼樣進一步去落實保障教師工作權，也有人在法律平臺建議說要修職業安全衛生法，我們也覺得有道理，所以目前我們也在落實。如果說有危害到老師的工作，去侵犯他的工作權，或者說我們講離線權，你不斷在騷擾他，影響職安的相關法令，他是可以受罰。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，這個就是我們講的，其實老師們的聲音也很多，因為他們覺得目前我們用辦法去處理這麼嚴重的解聘問題，就有點像是駕牛車然後要上高速公路，其實是非常不對等的。你也提到了，如果我們要處理濫訴究責，我們馬上又會被詢問到在法律上有沒有這樣的支撐，所以我還是要再一次的講，雖然這個叫做辦法，教師法，但是我還是希望我們在檢討的時候要廣邀各部會一起來做討論。","那我們來看一下問題所在，你看看，如果不涉及教師法中的解聘事項，我們現在已經分流說要回到考核辦法，但是解聘辦法到底涉及到什麼？其實在教師解聘辦法的第二條第一項第一、二、三款都是很明確違法的、是法院認證的、是直接解聘的，這個我們就不討論；但是在第四款的部分，它有說涉及到本法第十四條、第十五條、第十六條等等，就是要依照校事會議嘛！沒有錯嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我們再回頭看，你看教師法第十四條、第十五條、第十六條，光是第十四條，它是應予解聘，且終身不得聘任為教師，我舉一個例子就好，第十款是「體罰或霸凌學生，造成其身心嚴重侵害」；可是你看第十五條，第三款是「體罰或霸凌學生，造成其身心侵害，有解聘之必要」，第十五條敍文是「議決一年至四年不得聘任為教師」，你有沒有覺得很混亂？有沒有？次長，你有沒有覺得很混亂？"],["張廖次長萬堅：同樣的一個行為，不同的處罰。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，是不是很混亂？這個就是我們講的嘛！其實它很多的東西都定義不清，甚至最難判斷的教學不力或不能勝任工作，這個到底要怎麼定義？其實在108年以前，就是因為這樣子所以我們很難處理，可是我覺得走到現在也沒有更好，這個就是為什麼現場有這麼多老師覺得這是很嚴重的問題。109年我們針對這種教學行為失當，或者是親師溝通不良、班級經營欠佳，用了第十六條第一項第一款的解釋令，結果我們還是沒有解決問題。","我這邊有準備幾個問題，我本來想說問一問次長，我隨便舉簡單的幾個例子，例如：為了獎勵班上學生，但是有A、B兩位學生因病未到，還有C、D、E三位學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒，然後被投訴。或者是上課的時候，自然老師被投訴說沒有教學生唱國歌。又或者是說老師是單身還沒有生小孩，會帶學生嗎？請教一下，我剛剛講的那個獎勵學生，有的學生因病未到，有的學生表現不佳沒有吃到冰棒，被投訴不公平，次長，您覺得這個會不會成案？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個當然不應該成案啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是我告訴你，就是成案了！"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是之前的啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，就是成案了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是115年1月12日以前的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我只是要表達，真的心證……我們不是法官，但是你看這個可以採自由心證，所以委員到底判斷得來還是判斷不來？我覺得這個問題很大！其實追根究柢其最核心的問題就是因為這些，所以我特別希望，對於法規模糊不清造成老師怨聲載道的部分，包括現在我們講的離線權、管教權，希望教育部要幫忙清楚地界定，否則不管我們再怎麼修，問題還是很多，所以……"],["張廖次長萬堅：跟委員報告，像離線權，我們就是明定在上班時間內，如果在上班時間外有校安的緊急事件，我們要處理，如果沒有回復我們才會去追究，但若不是的話，其實是不究責的。輔導管教權也是因為經過前兩次的公聽座談會，我們也在講合理的輔導管教權，剛才委員舉的那個例子就是合理的輔導管教權，這就不罰。不罰的話，如果學校又罰，這個我們已經一直在宣導，因為113年我們有做一個修正，有一些像是違法阻卻事由，像是剛才委員舉的很多例子，譬如宜蘭縣發生老師被學生戳肛門的事件，我們認為那個是違法的，不能這樣子做，但老師可能動作大了一點，頂多就是跟他口頭講講，就是不應該處罰。","所以我們也在講，這個新的輔導管教辦法要怎麼樣讓地方政府去落實，就是在教學現場裡面讓老師真的不會因為這樣而……現在我們聽到的都是，老師變得很防禦性教學或是做防禦性管理，其實我們聽了都很難過，我們會再想辦法把這個更明確化。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，因為7月嘛！大家都希望重新檢討嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以現在不管是公聽會的學者專家或是今天各個立委們的建議，其實都希望你們全部都要把它列入檢討，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我這邊的訴求就是，我要特別表達，就是要明確定義違反教師法的行為樣態。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：至於我們的教師輔導與管教學生辦法，這些所謂的注意事項也要去界定好我們的管教權，我也希望能夠建立學生行為指導與教師合法管教的實務手冊，比照偏遠地區學校校長、教師久任獎金發給的疑問那樣定期更新，希望這個教師合法管教的實務手冊也能夠定期更新。","不只是要做程序的分流，還要做事件類型的分流，用明確化的制度標準取代人為的分流，甚至是我們一直訴求的，是不是要減少行政作業，或者是減少這種所謂的自由心證，並研擬列入第三方的機制，你們也要去比照近5年正式教師的離職情況，也要去彙整，然後去了解一下。","對於剛才我講的，其實我們可以尋求雙贏，因為我們的目標都是為了孩子好，所以在這個部分很希望7月真的要做出一個精進的對策，策進作為要出來，也許還是會有批評的聲浪，但是你們都要虛心的檢討、改進，因為真的是為了我們的教育好，也希望能夠走過這一波校園低迷的氛圍，在這邊特別希望教育部要努力，謝謝次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的建議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員）：接下來有請張雅琳委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-17","speakers":["伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳培瑜","柯志恩","葛如鈞","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","蔡春綢","葉元之","吳思瑤","吳沛憶","范雲","張雅琳","洪孟楷","王安祥","羅廷瑋","羅智強","盧縣一","傅崐萁","徐欣瑩","何欣純","黃捷","林倩綺"],"page_start":195,"meetingDate":["2026-06-24"],"gazette_id":"1155302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155302_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部政務次長張廖萬堅列席就「校事會議暨教師輔導管教制度與兒少相關權益探討」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155302_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}