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千萬"},{"start":179.833,"end":205.251,"text":"所以其实就从这个案子里面基本上就让我们去让一般的老百姓很难理解到底法官的裁量权是如何去裁量的是不是已经出现了明显失衡我们在前几个礼拜还出现这个彰化的地院的法官针对独家的交保也是一样他还是根本就不需应该是说是无保请回"},{"start":206.953,"end":227.99,"text":"就是针对先前彰化地方法院对独家犯无保请回这也是引起社会哗然所以诸如此类的这样的事情司法院应该要跟法官们开个讨论会什么对于这个所谓的交保的裁量拒保的裁量或者积压这应该要进行一个通盘考试"},{"start":229.398,"end":245.932,"text":"進行通盤的討論否則是與民間的法律情感太遠了跟委員報告其實剛剛委員所提到的通盤討論是我們隨時都在進行因為這是隨時都在學習的可是同樣的我要跟委員報告因為"},{"start":247.173,"end":270.022,"text":"交保會交保是他這個整個案件的考量當然沒有錯我們看到起訴是寫高達84可是法官他看的是整個捐贈數量其實秘書長我想這個事情我只是要再強調的就是整個現在司法為什麼讓大家覺得不具公信力"},{"start":271.038,"end":292.893,"text":"的原因也是因為在很多的個案裡面他凸顯出就法官的裁量權他所做的決定跟我們一般人民的法律情感太遙遠了對不對這個一個等於說放高利貸獲利四千多萬他兩萬元他就交保了那之前的獨家的問題也是還無保請回"},{"start":293.793,"end":318.4,"text":"對 我想這個對於法務部來說 應該也是一個挫折吧檢察官很努力的去偵查辦案 但是呢 沒想到像這樣子的一個對 當然我要講的是 因為這個是跟這個前檢察官有關基隆地院的檢察官 他今天做出了這樣的事情所以接下來我想請問 部長就說 現在這位檢察官他的狀況是怎麼樣 是停職還是辭職了"},{"start":320.765,"end":336.217,"text":"你們有沒有對於這位放高一代的檢察官有進行任何的懲戒跟委員報告那這件事我們就已經起訴了去求重刑那另外的確是他那個法官交保是出我想社會的意料之外"},{"start":336.937,"end":340.178,"text":"那我想這部分他的犯刑非常的嚴重我們對這個檢查違法亂紀用重力還有一些的偽造文書所以現在除了刑事上面來說的話至於他的行政責任責任有在進行嗎"},{"start":353.38,"end":359.383,"text":"現在這個行政另外刑事我們是起訴了那這件那個法官那個繳保兩萬塊才用繳保兩萬我們提起抗告因為的確是那個兩萬塊那個行政調查部門行政就審部門現在在進行中現在真的進行中好我希望就是法務部不要寬帶"},{"start":370.828,"end":398.295,"text":"這個絕對不會 我們都起訴了 就求重刑 還駕駛駕駛駕駛我們這也提抗告了 我們希望這個能夠法院能夠撤銷 能夠再採取因為這次有郭川正 其實在審理中還有郭川正逃亡之餘所以事實上如果要交保 我是認為啦 個人看法啦我認為要有一定的相當的一個 擔保他們不會逃亡 不會郭川的一個金額是的 好 謝謝部長 那麼兩位先請回那接下來我要請考試院的劉秘書長"},{"start":405.151,"end":426.844,"text":"好 林秘書長好因為回到我們今天的主要的專報的主題是涉及是討論到有關於植物代理制度的問題那麼事實上現在在考試院或詮釋部的主管法規當中有一個各機關植物代理應行注意事項是那請問這個各機關植物代理應行注意事項它規範的範圍是什麼有沒有包含就是中央政府機關還是說它只是"},{"start":429.447,"end":457.368,"text":"就針對常任文官的部分只是針對常任文官的部分對所以各機關職務代理應行注意事項是不包括政務首長我的理解應該是這樣只是涉及到常任文官的首長不一定首長對當然不一定首長但是因為在你們第三條裡面有講機關首長副首長職務出缺的時候可以由法定代理人或符合資格人員代理所以換句話說你們這裡講的機關首長副首長是指的是常任文官的"},{"start":458.629,"end":483.117,"text":"機關首長副首長不包括政務當然從這一點來說我們就可以知道就是其實考試院基本上對於所謂的政務首長政務人員的這部分是完全沒有去思考到就是說他的這個職務當他長期代理而且沒有任何次數限制的時候是不是會影響到整個公務機關的正常運作"},{"start":485.203,"end":507.254,"text":"那我認為說考試院基本上應該要去檢討這個職務代理一行注意事項當然他現在只是一個行政命令那麼未來有沒有機會可以提升到法律位階好做一個通盤的這個檢討那並且將職務代理法治化我認為正式考試院全市部應該要去思考而且要去正視的問題"},{"start":510.403,"end":531.154,"text":"其實在委員提出今天報告的這個主題的時候我們也有把這個制度來做一個並同的思考就是說那如果對照到我們一般公務體系部分就是一加一代理一年為限必要時延長一年那但是因為考慮到就是說一般公務文官體系的職務他的代理應該是說他比較容易"},{"start":532.975,"end":546.047,"text":"它的代理比較不會有爭議啦那它的可替代性也比較高但如果是把它運用到政務體系的話那如果又加以一些限制那最後如果它出現了沒有人可以代理的時候那這個對機關的運作影響也會變另外一個問題這個職務代理基本上可能也會出現一些問題對不對特別是"},{"start":552.032,"end":558.595,"text":"我們為什麼要有一個職務代理的陰性注意事項或是裡面要做一些規定也是因為考慮到就是每個職務它都有它的一些特殊性它的重要性然後所以呢當這個職務執行的執行者如果萬一不能夠來執行的時候必須要有個代理人但是代理通常來講它就是短暫的嘛暫時的可是如果你當把代理常態化之後就會出現很大的問題"},{"start":577.045,"end":589.118,"text":"因此在你們自己的陰性注意事項裡面也講了最多就是一年這還是針對事務官的部分但是我們知道所有政務首長他位高權重他握有非常重要的這個任務還有這個職權"},{"start":590.868,"end":616.438,"text":"那麼反而是權力越大的人越是重要的人他就可以無限期的代理下去這對於整個的政務的推動執行來說我認為會出了很大的問題當然譬如說以剛剛講的司法院院長為例現在已經代理了一年一年多了即將要可能要快兩年了一個司法院院長同時兼任憲法法庭的審判長可以"},{"start":620.09,"end":637.535,"text":"這個重要的正式的院長跟審判長職務然後一直都是用代理來這個進行這個基本上是很不妥的一件事情所以這也是本席為什麼要提出相關的這個組織法的修正好那接下來我想請法務部這個政部長請秘書長請回"},{"start":646.849,"end":662.067,"text":"我們剛有談到有關於檢查總長代理的問題因為事實上法務部現在說檢查總長的代理他是主要的依據的是最高檢察署的處務規程的第11條"},{"start":663.291,"end":668.855,"text":"最高檢察署處規程第十一條所以總統可以執行指定代理人行使檢察總長之權那我想要談的就是說因為剛剛部長也講說其實代理職務也很重要這個檢察總長不能夠空缺那本身也同意但是呢如果說你認為說這個規定是這麼重要這個代理職務是這麼重要為什麼不把它提升到法律位階"},{"start":689.958,"end":704.675,"text":"這部分我們學法律保留原則所謂法律保留原則就是只要是涉及到國家重要組織人事權限分配及人民權利義務有重大影響事項的都應該要有法律明文來規範"},{"start":706.66,"end":729.222,"text":"所以對於像檢察總長這麼重要的職務 結果反而都是透過一般的行政規則去訂定或行政命令去訂定 然後它不是一個法律來命定所以這也是會讓人詬病 為什麼我們的代理總長的職務你要不然就把它名為定在法院組織法"},{"start":730.519,"end":746.591,"text":"這部分如果說有因為這反而是司法院的主管的一個法規那當然是關係到我們那個總長是不是那個一個剛剛委員關心的就是代理的問題那當然我們認為是目前的一個代理這部分我們認為是有一個"},{"start":747.572,"end":763.712,"text":"一個過度的一個行政處置我想就是說因為過去大家認為說代理他只是個過度那麼不會說是長期的代理可是當我們發現整個政府機關他自己的自律他的倫理失靈了出現了很大的問題"},{"start":764.733,"end":782.278,"text":"那麼我們就必須要把過去沒有關注到的一些議題讓它法制化、明文化那這樣的話未來不管是在代理的任命或是指定或是期限以及代理到底次數是不是可以一直不斷的同一個人一直連續下去這個有一個法律的明文規定大家才有所本嘛"},{"start":783.453,"end":800.767,"text":"是 我當然知道現在部長你很困難 因為代理總長也不是您指定的這個代理總長是法務部是曾請行政院那個報請行政院曾請總統來指派的那的確是徐代理總長因為他非常所以這個現在代理檢查總長的名單是您曾請總統來"},{"start":806.411,"end":808.894,"text":"的確是因為要一個有代理不可一日沒有檢查總裁是 可是我們之前已經講過這個議題整個檢查體系人才濟濟為什麼要去提起一位被立法院否決的"},{"start":821.866,"end":828.648,"text":"帶理檢查總統的人選去進行代理我覺得這個部分當然是中國民眾看在眼裡都覺得沒有辦法接受的這個議題我想我們就不用再討論了因為事實上現在就是由徐新強來代理所以因為從他的例子才讓我們知道說"},{"start":841.713,"end":846.958,"text":"我想各大報都有報告一個非常上述的代理 職務做得好基本上是應該的那麼否則他就根本不應該代理我覺得這是兩回事我們今天討論的是制度面的問題對 再跟他這個代理總長他擔任了這個職務之後他能不能把事情做好我覺得這是兩回事所以我們今天要談的是說制度面上面我們代理是不是應該有期間長短的限制代理是不是應該有次數的限制"},{"start":870.257,"end":892.227,"text":"那對於代理的這個具有代理資格的人是不是不應該是被立法院否決掉的資格的人所以從徐錫祥的案子當然就凸顯出這個議題的重要性而這也是我們今天為什麼要把有關於代理職務的這個問題我們要把它法治化所以這個地方的話我想就是這個請部長"},{"start":895.251,"end":917.979,"text":"這個當然也不需要再為學習廂做什麼辯護了那接下來我們當然有很多的法案然後我們需要一個一個來進行討論那我當然也希望防護部長能夠去支持還有最後一個小小的問題就是針對三大獨立機關現在NCC那我們可以麻煩請NCC的主名"},{"start":925.912,"end":929.234,"text":"目前的三位委員即將在7月31號這期屆滿據您了解的話行政院到底有沒有進行提名作業"},{"start":944.046,"end":963.095,"text":"目前據報載是說 佔頓堂秘書長有在表示行政院有在徵詢中有在徵詢中那麼現在NCC有沒有準備萬一到了7月31號之後NCC沒有辦個委員那麼NCC接下來要如何適從報告委員當然我們尊重行政院既有的行政的機制"},{"start":973.683,"end":986.154,"text":"所以也就是說如果說萬一沒有任何的委員被提名或者是說即便是被提名了可能不適合貝利法院否決的話那會讓NCC無法運作對不對"},{"start":987.781,"end":1011.542,"text":"因為根據我們納火官4-613號的解釋我們行政院還是最高的行政機關那是不是要派代理人來執行職務是嗎?現在NCC組織法裡面可以直接由行政院院長去指定一個非NCC委員的來代理"},{"start":1012.082,"end":1036.603,"text":"因為剛剛委員是說如果7月31號之後一直都沒有委員的話那怎麼去運作嘛所以NCC不就停擺了嘛原則上NCC就停擺了嘛可是如果剛剛重溫竹密的口中好像似乎行政院現在有意是不是要指定一個非NCC委員的人就是來擔任NCC主委嗎"},{"start":1037.364,"end":1065.577,"text":"沒有這樣的情形當然我們也樂見說會指派問主秘你來代理主委嗎我不曉得啦因為這部分不是不曉得你應該說不行依法是不可以的不是說不曉得我希望說萬一這個行政院腦子壞了這個又違法亂證然後指派想要指派主秘來代理主委這是完全違法的"},{"start":1067.086,"end":1085.826,"text":"對 我寧可讓NCC停擺但是也不可以違反我們的法定組織法定程序就法定的組織程序然後去指派一個根本不是具有委員資格的事務官 文官來擔任委員或是主委"},{"start":1087.571,"end":1099.232,"text":"好 是的 謝謝好 本期今天的這個集訓到這邊然後也希望就是溫主秘回去還是要這個透過這個陳代理主委去提醒行政院儘速要提名ACC委員好嗎好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:17.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:22.302000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我首先請司法院高秘書長還有法務部鄭部長。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:34.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:57.465000+08:00","text":"這兩天有一則與司法有關的新聞，讓本席感到非常震驚，就是一位前基隆地檢署林姓檢察官涉嫌放高利貸，根據檢方起訴的內容，這個林姓檢察官是以人頭名義去放貸，放貸金額高達1億以上，而且他的獲利超過4,300萬。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:57.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:58.846000+08:00","text":"因為他是放高利貸，年利率甚至高達6成到8成4，為了掩飾犯行，還涉嫌未據實申報財產、辦假離婚，避免財產揭露等等。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:59.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:24.299000+08:00","text":"基本上這個案件經過檢察官聲請羈押禁見獲准，全案在前兩天偵結後，已提起公訴。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:24.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:35.981000+08:00","text":"但是，這樣一位檢察官，因為他長期涉及經營重利放貸並獲利數千萬，而且他本身是一位具備高度法律素養之人，但起訴後，法院竟然以裁定2萬元就交保。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:36.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:36.801000+08:00","text":"我想這樣的情況，法院針對像涉嫌這麼嚴重的檢察官，到底要不要繼續羈押？","quality":0.355},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:36.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:39.586333+08:00","text":"竟然以裁定2萬元交保！","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:39.586333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:42.371667+08:00","text":"請問法務部部長及司法院秘書長，像這樣的狀況，到底這2萬元交保的衡量標準是什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:42.371667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:45.157000+08:00","text":"先請秘書長回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:45.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:20.345000+08:00","text":"首先跟委員報告一下，我想法官會這樣裁定有他的具體理由，因為這是屬於審判核心，我不能夠予以評價。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:20.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:31.971000+08:00","text":"但是我必須要說，一個犯罪本質即使很重，跟有沒有羈押必要是兩件事，他雖然被交保，可是他將來的有罪判決是什麼呢？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:34.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:38.413000+08:00","text":"移審後要不要受羈押，我們要考量的是羈押必要性。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:38.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:40.013000+08:00","text":"是，了解，謝謝秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:40.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:54.797000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在講的是這個交保的金額，你看看一位涉嫌收取四千三百多萬元暴利的人，交保金額竟然比一般的竊盜、酒駕案件的交保金還要低。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:55.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:10.172000+08:00","text":"我們再來看看之前柯文哲案，他的交保金額高達7,000萬，去年大罷免的時候，有一些案子是涉及偽造罷免連署的，整個交保金也是高達千萬。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:11.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:21.260000+08:00","text":"所以在這個案子裡，基本上讓一般老百姓很難理解，到底法官的裁量權是如何去裁量的？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:21.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:23.682000+08:00","text":"是不是已經出現了明顯失衡？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:25.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:44.577000+08:00","text":"前幾個禮拜還發生彰化地院的法官針對毒駕交保也是一樣，他還是無保請回，就是先前彰化地方法院對毒駕犯無保請回，這也是引起社會譁然。","quality":0.627},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:45.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:06.863000+08:00","text":"所以，諸如此類的事情，司法院應該要跟法官們開個討論會，對於所謂交保的裁量、具保的裁量或是羈押，這應該要進行通盤的討論，否則與民間的法律情感距離太遠了。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:07.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:15.110000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實剛剛委員所提到的通盤討論，我們隨時都在進行，因為這是隨時都在學習的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:15.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:32.078000+08:00","text":"可是同樣的，我要跟委員報告，因為會交保，是他就整個案件的考量，當然沒有錯，我們看到起訴是寫高達84%，可是法官他看的是整個卷證資料，所以我必須要讓委員了解。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:32.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:33.799000+08:00","text":"是的，了解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:33.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:55.486000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我想這件事情，我只是要再強調的是，現在整個司法為什麼讓大家覺得不具公信力的原因，也是因為在很多的個案裡凸顯出，就法官的裁量權所做的決定，跟我們一般人民的法律情感距離太遙遠了，對不對？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:55.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:04.873000+08:00","text":"一個放高利貸、獲利四千多萬，讓他2萬元就交保了，之前毒駕的問題還無保請回。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:05.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:09.634000+08:00","text":"我想這對於法務部來說，應該也是一個挫折吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:10.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:24.338000+08:00","text":"檢察官很努力的偵查辦案，但是沒想到像這樣子的……當然我要講的是，因為這是跟前檢察官有關，就是基隆地院的檢察官，他今天做出了這樣的事情。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:24.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:29.979000+08:00","text":"接下來，我想請問部長，現在這位檢察官的狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:29.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:30.260000+08:00","text":"是停職？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:30.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:30.380000+08:00","text":"還是辭職了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:32.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:37.569000+08:00","text":"你們對於這位放高利貸的檢察官，有沒有進行任何懲戒？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:37.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:38.529000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，他辭職了。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:39.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:41.932000+08:00","text":"這件事我們已經起訴並求處重刑。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:42.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:51.478000+08:00","text":"另外，的確法官裁定這樣的交保是出乎社會的意料之外，這部分他的犯行非常嚴重，我們對檢察官違法亂紀，用重利及偽造文書……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:51.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:52.178000+08:00","text":"所以現在除了刑事上面，對於他的行政懲戒有在進行嗎？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:06.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:10.242000+08:00","text":"針對刑事部分，我們是起訴了，至於法官裁定交保2萬元，我們也提起抗告，因為的確這2萬元……對。","quality":0.595},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:10.242000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:11.242000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是，在其他行政懲戒的部分呢？","quality":0.235},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:10.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:10.943000+08:00","text":"有關行政究責部分，現在正在進行中。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:10.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:11.083000+08:00","text":"現在正在進行中？是。好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:11.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:22.828000+08:00","text":"我希望法務部不要寬貸，類似這樣的……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:22.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:36.531000+08:00","text":"這絕對不會，我們都起訴且求處重刑了，還聲請羈押，我們也提抗告了，希望法院能夠撤銷，能夠再……的確在審理中還有勾串證及逃亡之虞。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:37.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:45.494000+08:00","text":"事實上，如果要交保，我個人的看法，我認為一定要有相當的擔保，使他不會逃亡且不會勾串的交保金額……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:46.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:48.334000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，兩位先請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:48.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:50.295000+08:00","text":"接下來，我要請考試院的劉秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:57.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:57.151000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:58.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:58.612000+08:00","text":"劉秘書長好。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:59.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:16.482000+08:00","text":"回到今天專報的主題，有關職務代理制度的問題，事實上，現在在考試院或銓敘部的主管法規當中，有一個各機關職務代理應行注意事項，請問這個各機關職務代理應行注意事項所規範的範圍是什麼？","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:16.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:18.824000+08:00","text":"有沒有包含中央政府機關，還是只是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:21.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:22.608000+08:00","text":"針對常任文官的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:23.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:25.610000+08:00","text":"只是針對常任文官的部分？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:25.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:30.214000+08:00","text":"所以各機關職務代理應行注意事項不包括政務首長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:30.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:31.155000+08:00","text":"我理解應該是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:31.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:34.317000+08:00","text":"只是涉及常任文官的首長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:34.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:35.478000+08:00","text":"不一定是首長，就是一般的職務……","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:35.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:36.379000+08:00","text":"對，當然不一定是首長。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:36.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:43.544000+08:00","text":"但是，在你們的第三條裡有講，機關首長、副首長職務出缺的時候，可以由法定代理人或符合資格人員代理。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:43.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:56.191000+08:00","text":"所以，換句話說，你們這個注意事項裡講的機關首長、副首長，指的是常任文官的機關首長、副首長，不包括政務嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:56.191000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:57.831000+08:00","text":"是，原則上是這樣。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:57.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:15.097000+08:00","text":"從這一點來說，我們就可以知道，基本上考試院對於政務首長、政務人員這部分，完全沒有去思考到他的職務，當他長期代理，而且沒有任何次數限制的時候，是不是會影響到整個公務機關的正常運作。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:17.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:34.872000+08:00","text":"我認為考試院基本上應該要去檢討這個職務代理應行注意事項，當然它現在只是一個行政命令，未來有沒有機會可以提升到法律位階，做通盤的檢討，並且將職務代理法制化？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:35.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:39.254000+08:00","text":"我認為這是考試院銓敘部應該要去思考，而且要去正視的問題。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:39.254000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:42.403000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:42.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:05.976000+08:00","text":"其實在委員提出今天報告這個主題的時候，我們也有把這個制度併同思考，如果對照到我們一般公務體系部分就是一加一，代理一年為限，必要時延長一年，但是因為考慮到一般文官體系的職務，它的代理應該說是比較容易……它的代理比較不會有爭議啦！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:06.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:17.106000+08:00","text":"它的可替代性也的確比較高，但如果把它運用到政務體系的話，如果又加以一些限制，最後如果出現沒有人可以代理的時候，這對機關運作的影響也會變另外一個問題。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:17.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:18.027000+08:00","text":"秘書長，你已經講到了，這個職務代理基本上可能也會出現一些問題，對不對？是。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:24.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:27.674000+08:00","text":"我們為什麼要有一個職務代理的應行注意事項，或是裡面要做一些規定？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:27.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:30.595000+08:00","text":"也是因為考慮到每個職務都有它的一些特殊性及重要性，所以萬一這職務的執行者不能夠來執行的時候，必須要有個代理人，但是代理通常來講就是短暫的、暫時的，如果你把代理常態化之後，就會出現很大的問題。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:49.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:13.932000+08:00","text":"因此，在你們自己的應行注意事項裡也講了最多就是1年，這還是針對事務官的部分，但是我們知道所有政務首長位高權重，他握有非常重要的任務及職權，反而是權力越大的人、越是重要的人，他就可以無限期的代理下去，這對於整個政務的推動及執行來說，我認為會產生很大的問題。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:13.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:47.094000+08:00","text":"當然，譬如以剛剛講的司法院院長為例，現在已經代理一年多了，可能快要兩年了，一個司法院院長同時兼任憲法法庭的審判長，這麼重要且正式的院長、審判長職務，一直都由代理來進行，這基本上是很不妥的一件事情，所以這也是本席為什麼要提出相關組織法的修正。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:47.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:49.515000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請法務部鄭部長，秘書長請回。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:49.515000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:58.849000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:58.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:14.067000+08:00","text":"是，部長，因為我們剛剛有談到關於檢察總長代理的問題，法務部現在說檢察總長的代理，主要的依據是最高檢察署處務規程第十一條。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:14.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:15.291000+08:00","text":"這個我們是援例……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:15.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:16.092000+08:00","text":"最高檢察署處務規程第十一條嘛……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:16.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:17.092000+08:00","text":"我不是用……這個是一個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:16.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:20.855000+08:00","text":"所以總統可以逕行指定代理人行使檢察總長之權，我想要談的是……因為剛剛部長也說代理職務也很重要，檢察總長不能空缺，本席也同意，但是如果你認為這個規定這麼重要，代理職務這麼重要，為什麼不把它提升到法律位階？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:41.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:42.919000+08:00","text":"這部分我們也是建議……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:42.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:56.675000+08:00","text":"我們學法律的人也知道，所謂法律保留原則就是只要涉及國家重要組織、人事權限分配及人民權利義務有重大影響事項的，都應該要有法律明文規範。那個……","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:58.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:56:12.494000+08:00","text":"對於像檢察總長這麼重要的職務，反而都是透過一般的行政規則或行政命令去訂定，並不是由法律來明定，這也是讓人詬病的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:56:13.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:56:21.202000+08:00","text":"為什麼代理總長職務沒有……要不然就把它明文定在法院組織法呀！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:56:22.519000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:56:41.234000+08:00","text":"這部分如果有……因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規，當然是關係到總長是不是……剛剛委員關心的就是代理的問題，我們認為目前代理的部分是一個過渡的行政處置。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:56:42.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:14.258000+08:00","text":"是的，因為過去大家認為代理只是過渡，不會是長期的代理，可是當我們發現整個政府機關的自律、倫理失靈了，出現了很大的問題，就必須要把過去沒有關注到的一些議題，讓它法制化、明文化，這樣的話，未來不管是在代理的任命、指定，或是期限以及代理的次數是不是可以不斷地由同一個人一直連續下去，加以法律的明文規定，大家才有所本嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:15.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:19.356000+08:00","text":"我當然知道現在部長你很困難，因為代理總長也不是您指定的，而後……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:20.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:29.924000+08:00","text":"代理總長是法務部報請行政院陳請總統指派的，徐代理總長的確是……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:31.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:32.767000+08:00","text":"部長，所以代理檢察總長的名單是您陳請總統來任命的嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:38.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:39.032000+08:00","text":"因為的確是應該要有代理，不可一日沒有檢察總長……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:39.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.326000+08:00","text":"是，可是我們之前已經講過這個議題，整個檢察體系人才濟濟，為什麼要提一位被立法院否決的檢察總長人選去代理？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:55.326000+08:00","text":"他最主要是……我跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.626000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個部分當然是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.626000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:55.626000+08:00","text":"他的學經歷、品德……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:54.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:58.548000+08:00","text":"全國民眾看在眼裡都覺得沒有辦法接受，這個議題我想就不用再討論了。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:58.548000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:59.548000+08:00","text":"他這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:58.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:00.628000+08:00","text":"事實上現在就是由徐錫祥代理，因為從他的例子，才讓我們知道是……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:00.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:14.634000+08:00","text":"而且他做得很好，最近也提非常上訴，各大報都有報導，大家也都非常地肯定。","quality":0.258},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:14.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:16.796000+08:00","text":"代理職務做得好基本上是應該的，否則他根本就不應該代理，我覺得這是兩回事，我們今天討論的是制度面的問題。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:16.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:18.457000+08:00","text":"這跟他代理總長，擔任了這個職務之後，能不能把事情做好，我覺得這是兩回事，我們今天要談的是制度面，代理是不是應該有期間長短的限制？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:18.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:18.938000+08:00","text":"代理是不是應該有次數的限制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:44.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:58:49.260000+08:00","text":"具有代理資格的人，是不是不應該是被立法院否決的人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:58:50.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:11.553000+08:00","text":"從徐錫祥的案子就凸顯出這個議題的重要性，而這也是我們今天為什麼要把關於代理職務的問題法制化，所以這個地方請部長……當然也不需要再為徐錫祥做什麼辯護啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:11.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:19.796000+08:00","text":"接下來還有很多的法案，我們需要一個一個來進行討論，也希望法務部部長能夠支持。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:20.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:29.819000+08:00","text":"最後還有一個小小的問題，就是針對三大獨立機關，麻煩請NCC主秘。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:29.819000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:33.865500+08:00","text":"部長您請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:33.865500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:37.912000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:37.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:59:41.234000+08:00","text":"請問溫主秘，目前NCC的三位委員即將在7月31日任期屆滿，據您了解，現在行政院到底有沒有進行提名作業？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T09:59:56.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:03.690000+08:00","text":"目前據報載，張惇涵秘書長表示行政院在徵詢中。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:04.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:04.850000+08:00","text":"在徵詢中？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:05.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:09.273000+08:00","text":"現在NCC有沒有準備？","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:09.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:12.714000+08:00","text":"萬一到了7月31日之後，NCC沒有半個委員，NCC接下來要如何運作？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:12.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:15.075000+08:00","text":"報告委員，當然，我們尊重行政院既有的行政機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:25.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:38.154000+08:00","text":"所以也就是，萬一沒有任何委員被提名，或者即便是被提名了，可能不適合而被立法院否決的話，會讓NCC無法運作，對不對？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:39.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:00:56.676000+08:00","text":"因為根據大法官釋字第613號解釋，行政院還是最高行政機關，是不是要派代理人來執行職務，這個部分尊重行政院……是嗎？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:00:56.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:03.522000+08:00","text":"現在NCC組織法裡面，可以直接由行政院院長指定一個非NCC委員來代理主委嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:04.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:13.710000+08:00","text":"不是……因為剛剛委員是說如果7月31日之後，一直都沒有NCC委員的話要怎麼去運作，我剛剛回答的是這個意思。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:15.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:17.053000+08:00","text":"原則上NCC就停擺了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:17.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:28.583000+08:00","text":"可是剛剛從溫主秘的口中，似乎行政院現在有意，是不是要指定一個非NCC委員的人來擔任NCC主委？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:29.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:34.246000+08:00","text":"沒有這樣的情形，當然我們也樂見……","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:34.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:36.688000+08:00","text":"會指派溫主秘您來代理主委嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:36.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:38.268000+08:00","text":"我不曉得啦，因為這部分我們還是……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:38.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:42.310000+08:00","text":"不是不曉得，你應該說不行，依法是不可以的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:42.310000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:43.691000+08:00","text":"是、是、是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:43.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:44.431000+08:00","text":"而不是說不曉得。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:45.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:01:57.557000+08:00","text":"我希望……萬一行政院腦子壞了，又違法亂政，然後想要指派主秘來代理主委，這是完全違法的。是、是。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:01:59.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:17.806000+08:00","text":"對，我寧可讓NCC停擺，也不可以違反法定的組織程序，去指派一個根本不具有委員資格的事務官、文官來擔任委員或是主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:02:19.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:20.493000+08:00","text":"好，是的，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:02:20.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:31.212000+08:00","text":"好，本席今天的質詢到這邊，也希望溫主秘回去還是要透過陳代理主委，提醒行政院要儘速提名NCC委員，好嗎？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"溫主任秘書俊瑜","start":"2026-06-25T10:02:31.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:31.232000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝召委。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"翁委員曉玲","start":"2026-06-25T10:02:31.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:32.732000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（翁委員曉玲）","start":"2026-06-25T10:02:33.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:02:36.460571+08:00","text":"接下來有請林倩綺委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（9時44分）謝謝主席，我首先請司法院高秘書長還有法務部鄭部長。","這兩天有一則與司法有關的新聞，讓本席感到非常震驚，就是一位前基隆地檢署林姓檢察官涉嫌放高利貸，根據檢方起訴的內容，這個林姓檢察官是以人頭名義去放貸，放貸金額高達1億以上，而且他的獲利超過4,300萬。因為他是放高利貸，年利率甚至高達6成到8成4，為了掩飾犯行，還涉嫌未據實申報財產、辦假離婚，避免財產揭露等等。基本上這個案件經過檢察官聲請羈押禁見獲准，全案在前兩天偵結後，已提起公訴。","但是，這樣一位檢察官，因為他長期涉及經營重利放貸並獲利數千萬，而且他本身是一位具備高度法律素養之人，但起訴後，法院竟然以裁定2萬元就交保。我想這樣的情況，法院針對像涉嫌這麼嚴重的檢察官，到底要不要繼續羈押？竟然以裁定2萬元交保！請問法務部部長及司法院秘書長，像這樣的狀況，到底這2萬元交保的衡量標準是什麼？先請秘書長回答。"],["高秘書長金枝：首先跟委員報告一下，我想法官會這樣裁定有他的具體理由，因為這是屬於審判核心，我不能夠予以評價。但是我必須要說，一個犯罪本質即使很重，跟有沒有羈押必要是兩件事，他雖然被交保，可是他將來的有罪判決是什麼呢？移審後要不要受羈押，我們要考量的是羈押必要性。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，了解，謝謝秘書長。但是我們現在講的是這個交保的金額，你看看一位涉嫌收取四千三百多萬元暴利的人，交保金額竟然比一般的竊盜、酒駕案件的交保金還要低。我們再來看看之前柯文哲案，他的交保金額高達7,000萬，去年大罷免的時候，有一些案子是涉及偽造罷免連署的，整個交保金也是高達千萬。所以在這個案子裡，基本上讓一般老百姓很難理解，到底法官的裁量權是如何去裁量的？是不是已經出現了明顯失衡？前幾個禮拜還發生彰化地院的法官針對毒駕交保也是一樣，他還是無保請回，就是先前彰化地方法院對毒駕犯無保請回，這也是引起社會譁然。","所以，諸如此類的事情，司法院應該要跟法官們開個討論會，對於所謂交保的裁量、具保的裁量或是羈押，這應該要進行通盤的討論，否則與民間的法律情感距離太遠了。"],["高秘書長金枝：跟委員報告，其實剛剛委員所提到的通盤討論，我們隨時都在進行，因為這是隨時都在學習的。可是同樣的，我要跟委員報告，因為會交保，是他就整個案件的考量，當然沒有錯，我們看到起訴是寫高達84%，可是法官他看的是整個卷證資料，所以我必須要讓委員了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，了解。秘書長，我想這件事情，我只是要再強調的是，現在整個司法為什麼讓大家覺得不具公信力的原因，也是因為在很多的個案裡凸顯出，就法官的裁量權所做的決定，跟我們一般人民的法律情感距離太遙遠了，對不對？一個放高利貸、獲利四千多萬，讓他2萬元就交保了，之前毒駕的問題還無保請回。我想這對於法務部來說，應該也是一個挫折吧！檢察官很努力的偵查辦案，但是沒想到像這樣子的……當然我要講的是，因為這是跟前檢察官有關，就是基隆地院的檢察官，他今天做出了這樣的事情。","接下來，我想請問部長，現在這位檢察官的狀況是怎麼樣？是停職？還是辭職了？你們對於這位放高利貸的檢察官，有沒有進行任何懲戒？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，他辭職了。這件事我們已經起訴並求處重刑。另外，的確法官裁定這樣的交保是出乎社會的意料之外，這部分他的犯行非常嚴重，我們對檢察官違法亂紀，用重利及偽造文書……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以現在除了刑事上面，對於他的行政懲戒有在進行嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：針對刑事部分，我們是起訴了，至於法官裁定交保2萬元，我們也提起抗告，因為的確這2萬元……"],["翁委員曉玲：對。我現在講的是，在其他行政懲戒的部分呢？"],["鄭部長銘謙：有關行政究責部分，現在正在進行中。"],["翁委員曉玲：現在正在進行中？"],["鄭部長銘謙：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。我希望法務部不要寬貸，類似這樣的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：這絕對不會，我們都起訴且求處重刑了，還聲請羈押，我們也提抗告了，希望法院能夠撤銷，能夠再……的確在審理中還有勾串證及逃亡之虞。事實上，如果要交保，我個人的看法，我認為一定要有相當的擔保，使他不會逃亡且不會勾串的交保金額……"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長，兩位先請回。","接下來，我要請考試院的劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：劉秘書長好。回到今天專報的主題，有關職務代理制度的問題，事實上，現在在考試院或銓敘部的主管法規當中，有一個各機關職務代理應行注意事項，請問這個各機關職務代理應行注意事項所規範的範圍是什麼？有沒有包含中央政府機關，還是只是……"],["劉秘書長建忻：針對常任文官的部分。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是針對常任文官的部分？"],["劉秘書長建忻：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以各機關職務代理應行注意事項不包括政務首長？"],["劉秘書長建忻：我理解應該是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是涉及常任文官的首長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：不一定是首長，就是一般的職務……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，當然不一定是首長。但是，在你們的第三條裡有講，機關首長、副首長職務出缺的時候，可以由法定代理人或符合資格人員代理。所以，換句話說，你們這個注意事項裡講的機關首長、副首長，指的是常任文官的機關首長、副首長，不包括政務嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是，原則上是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。從這一點來說，我們就可以知道，基本上考試院對於政務首長、政務人員這部分，完全沒有去思考到他的職務，當他長期代理，而且沒有任何次數限制的時候，是不是會影響到整個公務機關的正常運作。我認為考試院基本上應該要去檢討這個職務代理應行注意事項，當然它現在只是一個行政命令，未來有沒有機會可以提升到法律位階，做通盤的檢討，並且將職務代理法制化？我認為這是考試院銓敘部應該要去思考，而且要去正視的問題。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員關心。其實在委員提出今天報告這個主題的時候，我們也有把這個制度併同思考，如果對照到我們一般公務體系部分就是一加一，代理一年為限，必要時延長一年，但是因為考慮到一般文官體系的職務，它的代理應該說是比較容易……它的代理比較不會有爭議啦！它的可替代性也的確比較高，但如果把它運用到政務體系的話，如果又加以一些限制，最後如果出現沒有人可以代理的時候，這對機關運作的影響也會變另外一個問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：秘書長，你已經講到了，這個職務代理基本上可能也會出現一些問題，對不對？"],["劉秘書長建忻：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們為什麼要有一個職務代理的應行注意事項，或是裡面要做一些規定？也是因為考慮到每個職務都有它的一些特殊性及重要性，所以萬一這職務的執行者不能夠來執行的時候，必須要有個代理人，但是代理通常來講就是短暫的、暫時的，如果你把代理常態化之後，就會出現很大的問題。因此，在你們自己的應行注意事項裡也講了最多就是1年，這還是針對事務官的部分，但是我們知道所有政務首長位高權重，他握有非常重要的任務及職權，反而是權力越大的人、越是重要的人，他就可以無限期的代理下去，這對於整個政務的推動及執行來說，我認為會產生很大的問題。","當然，譬如以剛剛講的司法院院長為例，現在已經代理一年多了，可能快要兩年了，一個司法院院長同時兼任憲法法庭的審判長，這麼重要且正式的院長、審判長職務，一直都由代理來進行，這基本上是很不妥的一件事情，所以這也是本席為什麼要提出相關組織法的修正。","接下來我想請法務部鄭部長，秘書長請回。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，部長，因為我們剛剛有談到關於檢察總長代理的問題，法務部現在說檢察總長的代理，主要的依據是最高檢察署處務規程第十一條。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們是援例……"],["翁委員曉玲：最高檢察署處務規程第十一條嘛……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不是用……這個是一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以總統可以逕行指定代理人行使檢察總長之權，我想要談的是……因為剛剛部長也說代理職務也很重要，檢察總長不能空缺，本席也同意，但是如果你認為這個規定這麼重要，代理職務這麼重要，為什麼不把它提升到法律位階？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分我們也是建議……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們學法律的人也知道，所謂法律保留原則就是只要涉及國家重要組織、人事權限分配及人民權利義務有重大影響事項的，都應該要有法律明文規範。"],["鄭部長銘謙：那個……"],["翁委員曉玲：對於像檢察總長這麼重要的職務，反而都是透過一般的行政規則或行政命令去訂定，並不是由法律來明定，這也是讓人詬病的。為什麼代理總長職務沒有……要不然就把它明文定在法院組織法呀！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這部分如果有……因為法院組織法是司法院主管的法規，當然是關係到總長是不是……剛剛委員關心的就是代理的問題，我們認為目前代理的部分是一個過渡的行政處置。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，因為過去大家認為代理只是過渡，不會是長期的代理，可是當我們發現整個政府機關的自律、倫理失靈了，出現了很大的問題，就必須要把過去沒有關注到的一些議題，讓它法制化、明文化，這樣的話，未來不管是在代理的任命、指定，或是期限以及代理的次數是不是可以不斷地由同一個人一直連續下去，加以法律的明文規定，大家才有所本嘛！我當然知道現在部長你很困難，因為代理總長也不是您指定的，而後……"],["鄭部長銘謙：代理總長是法務部報請行政院陳請總統指派的，徐代理總長的確是……"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，所以代理檢察總長的名單是您陳請總統來任命的嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：因為的確是應該要有代理，不可一日沒有檢察總長……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，可是我們之前已經講過這個議題，整個檢察體系人才濟濟，為什麼要提一位被立法院否決的檢察總長人選去代理？"],["鄭部長銘謙：他最主要是……我跟委員報告……"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得這個部分當然是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：他的學經歷、品德……"],["翁委員曉玲：全國民眾看在眼裡都覺得沒有辦法接受，這個議題我想就不用再討論了。"],["鄭部長銘謙：他這個……"],["翁委員曉玲：事實上現在就是由徐錫祥代理，因為從他的例子，才讓我們知道是……"],["鄭部長銘謙：而且他做得很好，最近也提非常上訴，各大報都有報導，大家也都非常地肯定。"],["翁委員曉玲：代理職務做得好基本上是應該的，否則他根本就不應該代理，我覺得這是兩回事，我們今天討論的是制度面的問題。這跟他代理總長，擔任了這個職務之後，能不能把事情做好，我覺得這是兩回事，我們今天要談的是制度面，代理是不是應該有期間長短的限制？代理是不是應該有次數的限制？具有代理資格的人，是不是不應該是被立法院否決的人？從徐錫祥的案子就凸顯出這個議題的重要性，而這也是我們今天為什麼要把關於代理職務的問題法制化，所以這個地方請部長……當然也不需要再為徐錫祥做什麼辯護啦！接下來還有很多的法案，我們需要一個一個來進行討論，也希望法務部部長能夠支持。","最後還有一個小小的問題，就是針對三大獨立機關，麻煩請NCC主秘。部長您請回。"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問溫主秘，目前NCC的三位委員即將在7月31日任期屆滿，據您了解，現在行政院到底有沒有進行提名作業？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：目前據報載，張惇涵秘書長表示行政院在徵詢中。"],["翁委員曉玲：在徵詢中？現在NCC有沒有準備？萬一到了7月31日之後，NCC沒有半個委員，NCC接下來要如何運作？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：報告委員，當然，我們尊重行政院既有的行政機制。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以也就是，萬一沒有任何委員被提名，或者即便是被提名了，可能不適合而被立法院否決的話，會讓NCC無法運作，對不對？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：因為根據大法官釋字第613號解釋，行政院還是最高行政機關，是不是要派代理人來執行職務，這個部分尊重行政院……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？現在NCC組織法裡面，可以直接由行政院院長指定一個非NCC委員來代理主委嗎？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：不是……因為剛剛委員是說如果7月31日之後，一直都沒有NCC委員的話要怎麼去運作，我剛剛回答的是這個意思。"],["翁委員曉玲：原則上NCC就停擺了嘛！可是剛剛從溫主秘的口中，似乎行政院現在有意，是不是要指定一個非NCC委員的人來擔任NCC主委？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：沒有這樣的情形，當然我們也樂見……"],["翁委員曉玲：會指派溫主秘您來代理主委嗎？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：我不曉得啦，因為這部分我們還是……"],["翁委員曉玲：不是不曉得，你應該說不行，依法是不可以的。"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：是、是、是。"],["翁委員曉玲：而不是說不曉得。我希望……萬一行政院腦子壞了，又違法亂政，然後想要指派主秘來代理主委，這是完全違法的。"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：是、是。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，我寧可讓NCC停擺，也不可以違反法定的組織程序，去指派一個根本不具有委員資格的事務官、文官來擔任委員或是主委。"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：好，是的，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，本席今天的質詢到這邊，也希望溫主秘回去還是要透過陳代理主委，提醒行政院要儘速提名NCC委員，好嗎？"],["溫主任秘書俊瑜：好，謝謝召委。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席（翁委員曉玲）：接下來有請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-21","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","林沛祥","林倩綺","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","蔡其昌","沈發惠","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2026-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、法務部部長、公平交易委員會、國家通訊傳\n播委員會、中央選舉委員會針對「我國憲政機關、獨立機關首長代理制度之現況與精進」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155501_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}