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國家通訊傳播委員會 公平交易委員會 最高檢察署都有代理的狀況 這個您了解吧是您了解 那我想請問您 您覺得這個憲政跟獨立機關首長以我們剛剛所講的持續缺額 持續需要代理 是一個民主的常態嗎"},{"start":140.911,"end":169.286,"text":"當然我們期待在縣政機關彼此之間一定要折衝前立出應該有的首長這是必然的您剛講的折衝這個部分我很同意可是現在需要折衝的不是只有一個機關我們看到的司法院監察院國家通訊傳播委員會公民教育委員會還有最高檢察署首長都是代理"},{"start":170.94,"end":193.323,"text":"那這些是不是都算是憲政機關 獨立機關對 沒錯那這麼多的憲政機關跟獨立機關都持續缺額 嚴重到需要代理你覺得這是民主常態嗎當然不是當然不是民主常態那到底是為什麼"},{"start":195.131,"end":220.642,"text":"我剛剛在報告裡面說的這真的要仰賴大院、貴院跟總統跟行政一定要去折衝協力出剛剛秘書長也提到了實際的忠誠義務我只能夠這樣回答所以您認同就是說這麼多的憲政跟獨立機關首長持續缺額需要代理真的不是民主常態嗎"},{"start":221.662,"end":242.802,"text":"如果只有一個我們可能說這個是誰折衝並沒有做好或者等等但是這麼多個然後從我剛看到的這個表格2024年考試院算是受傷最輕的啦只有一位被砍到後來那您也認同這其實這麼多的重要的憲政機關獨立機關合格的人選都並不多嘛"},{"start":246.425,"end":257.887,"text":"那是不是會導致其實再來的提名也會更困難因為願意擔任的人越來越少或許應該會有這種狀況因為有挫折感"},{"start":259.401,"end":261.663,"text":"我們是完全依照司法院組織法的規定"},{"start":278.925,"end":305.087,"text":"被總統指定任命的那你們是依照哪一個法處理這個代理應該是司法院主要第七條所以你們目前的代理制度完全符合相關的規範嗎是的就如同你們的報告是的那好我想您是司法院應該對我們的所有的法制都了解那考試院的部分那您的理解是不是也依照就是相關的代理規範對"},{"start":306.548,"end":322.616,"text":"他們應該就有三個是有規定的那就是它是依照考試院組織法第八條考試院院長因事故不能事事時由副院長代理其職務所以也都有遵守相關的規範嘛"},{"start":323.937,"end":330.267,"text":"那監察院呢 代理的制度有沒有遵守相關的規範監察院指示法也有相關規定那是哪一條法律 您知道嗎他們應該是由副院長代理的"},{"start":340.521,"end":360.731,"text":"是依照監察院組織法第六條就是院長出缺的時候由副院長代理其代理期間至總統提名繼任院長經立法院同意總統任命之日為止那您看起來這個副院長代理依照我們這個監察院組織法可能要代理到什麼時候"},{"start":362.621,"end":369.109,"text":"像組織法裡面並沒有極限規定因為一般民主常態不會想像到會有這麼多憲政機關無法產生人選"},{"start":372.929,"end":400.181,"text":"那當然像以司法院大法官他的任期介制就沒有了所以其實副院長依照我們監察院組織法要代理到何時我們並不清楚嗎因為如果無法產生他們的任期介制的話其實跟大法官一樣如果原有就有任期那介制就沒有了所以我們以民主國家的常態目前的這些法規都並沒有問題嗎"},{"start":402.314,"end":428.553,"text":"最少我認為司法院組織法是沒有問題因為我們現在處理的就像您剛講的不是民主常態對不對可是跟委員報告好代理是一個法律規定的必要事項那至於沒有產生一直無法產生人選的代理就不是民主常態對不對沒有產生人選不是民主常態"},{"start":429.213,"end":444.285,"text":"可是不能說代理不是民主常態當然我同意就是代理是民主中偶爾會遇到的狀況當然需要而且法律原本是規範是良善的那現在我們遇到的狀況不是民主常態"},{"start":445.046,"end":470.733,"text":"因為就是國會的多數不管是因為怎麼樣的理由人選不夠好或是各方面或者是說什麼總統沒有什麼鞋子等等就是蛇充的話那我們看到的就產生了一個非民主常態所以我們來看一下公交會國家通訊傳播委員會中央選舉委員會其實都有相關的法源依據都有相關的首長代理的規範"},{"start":472.033,"end":497.971,"text":"所以再來看今天很多的爭議重點之一最高檢察署現在的代理有沒有違反法源依據請那個可不可以請部長來他比較熟悉所以鄭部長要回答嗎那請部長來回答好了就原本的法規是怎麼規定這個代理的"},{"start":499.461,"end":519.922,"text":"跟委員報告這個是法院組織法66條那其實那個他規定的是66條的那個第3第4款的就是種子有因故或因故出缺或無法實施而出缺這部分的確是要有一個一個要在三個月內要提出一個人選"},{"start":520.743,"end":543.047,"text":"那那個就命那個任命之後呢任命之後那個任期四年是重新起算而且不能連任那但是因為他第六款他第四款規定的是中途就在總長在在任期的中途之間因故或者無好時事的情形譬如說請辭這也是一個一個一個一個"},{"start":545.948,"end":574.828,"text":"一個的確是一個固嘛因固因為那另外第六款他是說總長卸職的時候要一第二款就是由總統來提名立法院通過後任命嘛這是第六款的一個規定那當然要提名這部分的確說如果說萬一卸職的時候如果說卸職沒有人選沒有過因為這個法律沒有規定到這部分那當然我們就會巡禮還有那些那個來做一些的指定那個指派代理"},{"start":575.478,"end":593.013,"text":"所以因為法律沒有規定因為法律並沒有想像到有這種非民主常態這麼多的人事案這麼多的首長最後都出缺需要代理所以我想至少目前並沒有違反任何一個相關的法源規範嗎目前沒有"},{"start":594.935,"end":599.8,"text":"目前沒有 請回我想討論了這麼久謝謝剛剛高秘書長其實你點出了一個重點現在我們要討論的議題不是民主常態所以我們想要把法規修得更精確應付非民主常態我沒有特別的意見但我覺得"},{"start":619.46,"end":636.741,"text":"應該要回來正視這個問題代理只是結果這種大量的憲政機關獨立機關因為人事無法通過需要代理的情況不是民主常態那不合理的杯葛人事案才是真正的原因喔"},{"start":637.262,"end":653.18,"text":"那所以呢謝謝昭偉今天這麼的安排想要精確的讓非民主常態的狀況的法規更完善那我也請昭偉可以反映一下我們立法院是不是可以人事案回歸理性審查"},{"start":654.341,"end":667.517,"text":"停止這種系統性的癱瘓憲政跟獨立機關那也請召委幫我們回應最根本的這個政治問題不要讓這種非民主常態持續癱瘓我們的憲政跟獨立機關好 謝謝好 謝謝范雲委員的提言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:42:29.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:42:31.042000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，有請高秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T10:42:31.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:42:31.383000+08:00","text":"好，有請高秘書長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:42:37.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:42:38.625000+08:00","text":"秘書長早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:42:39.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:42:50.830000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們「雄讚」委員、幹事長已經有告訴大家，而且各院都有上來講目前的狀況。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:42:51.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:42:59.254000+08:00","text":"我這邊也整理了一個表格，其實我們可以看到，從2024年12月開始，考試院算是最幸運的，只有1個人被否決。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:43:00.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:43:29.908000+08:00","text":"大法官的部分您非常地清楚，7個人全部被否決，然後NCC在2025年6月的時候是立法院同意撤回4位提名，11月的時候4位被提名人都被否決，然後2025年12月，公視很多被提名人是文化界、企業界的知名人士，但有10位董事被否決。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:43:30.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:43:33.170000+08:00","text":"再來的中選會也有3位被否決。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:43:34.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:43:43.857000+08:00","text":"後來在今年4月，公視8個審查委員乾脆請辭，就無法審查了，所以公視董事現在已經幾乎難產。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:43:43.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:43:53.122000+08:00","text":"然後今年5月，檢察總長雖然只有1人，但是也是非常嚴重的事情，也被否決。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:43:53.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:44:00.164000+08:00","text":"目前首長為代理的部分，我想您今天的報告有講，司法院的代理是怎麼產生的？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:44:01.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:44:13.789000+08:00","text":"我們是依照司法院組織法，當院長、副院長出缺，就由總統就大法官裡面來指定。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:44:15.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:44:25.024000+08:00","text":"好，監察院、國家通訊傳播委員會、公平交易委員會、最高檢察署都有代理的狀況，這個您了解吧？是。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:44:26.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:44:38.876000+08:00","text":"我想請問您，您覺得憲政跟獨立機關首長，遇到我們剛剛所講的，持續缺額、需要代理是民主的常態嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:44:40.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:44:50.676000+08:00","text":"當然，我們期待憲政機關彼此一定要溝通，一定要折衝、協力，產生應該要有的首長，這是必然的。","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:44:51.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:09.266000+08:00","text":"您剛剛講的折衝我很同意，可是現在需要折衝的不是只有一個機關，我們看到司法院、監察院、國家通訊傳播委員會、公平交易委員會以及最高檢察署的首長都是代理，這沒錯吧？","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:09.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:11.224500+08:00","text":"沒錯啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:11.224500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:13.183000+08:00","text":"就是一個折衝協調的僵局嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:13.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:18.588000+08:00","text":"這些是不是都算是憲政機關、獨立機關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:18.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:19.269000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:19.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:29.239000+08:00","text":"這麼多的憲政機關跟獨立機關都持續缺額嚴重到需要代理，你覺得這是民主常態嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:29.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:29.679000+08:00","text":"當然不是啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:30.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:33.323000+08:00","text":"當然不是民主常態，那到底是為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:35.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:45:52.458000+08:00","text":"就像我剛剛在報告裡面說的，這真的要仰賴大院、總統跟行政院去折衝、協力，剛剛黃秘書長也提到了，這是一個忠誠義務，我只能夠這樣回答。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:45:52.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:00.642000+08:00","text":"所以您認同這麼多的憲政跟獨立機關首長持續缺額需要代理，真的不是民主常態嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:01.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:18.418000+08:00","text":"如果只有一個，我們可能會說這是誰折衝並沒有做好等等，但是現在有這麼多個，就我剛剛看到的表格，2024年考試院算是受傷最輕的，只有一位被砍。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:19.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:31.034000+08:00","text":"您也認同這麼多重要的憲政機關、獨立機關合格的人選都不多，那是不是會導致再來的提名也會更困難？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:31.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:32.878000+08:00","text":"因為願意擔任的人越來越少。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:34.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:37.867000+08:00","text":"或許，應該會有這種狀況，因為有挫折感嘛！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:37.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:38.867000+08:00","text":"今天召委排這個議程看起來是很合理，也就是要討論代理制度，那我們就回來一一討論代理制度好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:38.867000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:46:39.867000+08:00","text":"您剛剛講到司法院長目前是代理中，請問是否符合相關的規範呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:46:39.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:00.266000+08:00","text":"我們是完全依照司法院組織法的規定被總統指定任命的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:01.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:03.809000+08:00","text":"你們是依照哪一個法來處理這個代理？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:05.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:07.973000+08:00","text":"應該是司法院組織法第七條。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:07.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:12.256000+08:00","text":"所以你們目前的代理制度完全符合相關的規範嘛！是的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:12.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:14.178000+08:00","text":"就如同你們的報告？是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:15.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:18.401000+08:00","text":"您代表司法院，應該對我們所有的法制都了解。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:19.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:25.087000+08:00","text":"針對考試院的部分，就您的理解是不是也依照相關的代理規範？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:25.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:30.210000+08:00","text":"對，他們應該有三個是有規定的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:32.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:42.596000+08:00","text":"對，它是依照考試院組織法第八條「考試院院長因事故不能視事時，由副院長代理其職務」，所以也都有遵守相關的規範。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:44.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:48.003000+08:00","text":"請問監察院代理的制度有沒有遵守相關的規範？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:48.003000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:49.003000+08:00","text":"您代答應該沒問題吧！","quality":0},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:48.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:49.285000+08:00","text":"監察院組織法也有相關規定。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:49.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:49.906000+08:00","text":"好，那是哪一條法律您知道嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:47:49.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:47:50.247000+08:00","text":"他們應該也是由副院長代理的，應該是這樣。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:00.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:13.948000+08:00","text":"它是依照監察院組織法第六條，就是院長出缺的時候，由副院長代理，其代理期間至總統提名繼任院長經立法院同意，總統任命之日為止。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:14.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:20.711000+08:00","text":"就您來看，依照監察院組織法，副院長代理可能要代理到什麼時候？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:22.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:24.884000+08:00","text":"好像組織法裡面並沒有期限規定。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:25.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:29.109000+08:00","text":"因為一般民主常態不會想像到會有這麼多憲政機關無法產生人選。","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:33.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:36.811000+08:00","text":"以司法院大法官而言，他的任期屆至就沒有了。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:38.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:46.535000+08:00","text":"是，所以依照監察院組織法，副院長要代理到何時我們並不清楚，因為如果無法產生……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:47.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:48:55.479000+08:00","text":"如果他們的任期屆至的話，其實跟大法官一樣，如果原本就有任期，那屆至就沒有了。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:48:56.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:00.181000+08:00","text":"以民主國家的常態，目前這些法規都沒有問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:02.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:05.196000+08:00","text":"最少我認為司法院組織法是沒有問題的。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:05.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:10.140000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在處理的，就像您剛剛講的並不是民主常態，對不對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:10.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:19.907000+08:00","text":"可是跟委員報告，代理是法律規定的必要事項，至於沒有產生人選，這是兩件事……","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:20.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:25.711000+08:00","text":"一直無法產生人選的代理就不是民主常態對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:25.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:49:31.755000+08:00","text":"沒有產生人選不是民主常態，可是不能說代理不是民主常態。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:49:31.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:00.770000+08:00","text":"當然，我同意，代理是民主中偶爾會遇到的狀況，當然需要，而且法律原本的規範是良善的，但現在我們遇到的狀況不是民主常態，不管國會多數是因為怎麼樣的理由，包括人選不夠好或是說總統沒有協調折衝等等，我們看到的就是產生了一個非民主常態。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:01.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:25.983000+08:00","text":"其實公平會、國家通訊傳播委員會、中央選舉委員會都有相關的法源依據、都有相關首長代理的規範，我們再來看今天很多的爭議重點之一，最高檢察署現在的代理有沒有違反法源依據？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:26.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:28.244000+08:00","text":"可不可以請部長來回答？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"高秘書長金枝","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:28.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:28.965000+08:00","text":"他比較熟悉。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:29.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:31.426000+08:00","text":"所以鄭部長要回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:31.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:50:37.951000+08:00","text":"那麼請部長來回答好了，原本的法規是怎麼規定這個代理的？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T10:50:39.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:51:08.104000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這是依照法院組織法第六十六條，其實第六十六條第四款的規定是總長因故出缺或無法視事時，總統應於三個月內重新提出人選，經立法院同意任命之，其任期重行計算四年，不得連任。","quality":0.531},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T10:51:09.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:51:26.228000+08:00","text":"但後面還有第六款，因為第四款規定的是在總長任期的中途因故或者無法視事的情形，譬如請辭，這也是一個「因故」的情況。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T10:51:29.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:51:38.777000+08:00","text":"而第六款的規定是總長卸職的時候要依第二款，就是由總統提名，經立法院同意任命之，這是第六款的規定。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T10:51:40.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:51:54.808000+08:00","text":"針對提名這部分，萬一卸職的時候，提名人選沒有通過，因為法律沒有規定到這部分，當然我們就會循例來進行指派代理。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:51:55.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:52:12.893000+08:00","text":"所以法律沒有規定，因為法律並沒有想像到有這種非民主常態，這麼多的人事案、這麼多的首長最後都出缺需要代理，我想至少目前並沒有違反任何一個相關的法源規範嘛！","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-06-25T10:52:12.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:52:12.993000+08:00","text":"目前沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:52:15.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:52:15.295000+08:00","text":"好，請回。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:52:15.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:52:41.462000+08:00","text":"我們討論了這麼久，謝謝剛剛高秘書長點出了一個重點，現在我們要討論的議題並不是民主常態，所以我們想要把法規修得更精確、應付非民主常態，對此我沒有特別的意見，但我覺得應該要回來正視這個問題。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:52:41.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:52:56.501000+08:00","text":"代理只是結果，這種大量的憲政機關、獨立機關因為人事無法通過需要代理的情況並不是民主常態，不合理的杯葛人事案才是真正的原因。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"范委員雲","start":"2026-06-25T10:52:58.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T10:53:26.456000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委今天這麼安排，想要精確的讓非民主常態狀況的法規更完善，我也請召委反映一下，立法院是不是可以將人事案回歸理性審查，停止這種系統性的癱瘓憲政跟獨立機關，也請召委幫我們回應最根本的政治問題，不要讓這種非民主常態持續癱瘓我們的憲政跟獨立機關，謝謝。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T10:53:26.956000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:53:48.670286+08:00","text":"謝謝范雲委員的提醒，我想立法院現在也都是很理性的去審查每一位人事案的被提名人，當然我們在這裡也要呼籲賴總統可以依憲趕快提名各重要機關人選，包含大法官的提名，謝謝。","quality":0.105},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T10:53:48.970286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:53:51.541714+08:00","text":"接下來請沈發惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T10:53:51.841714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:53:55.270286+08:00","text":"沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T10:53:55.570286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T10:53:58.713143+08:00","text":"接下來請許宇甄委員發言。","quality":0.091}]},"gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（10時42分）謝謝召委，有請高秘書長。"],["主席：好，有請高秘書長。"],["范委員雲：秘書長早安。剛剛我們「雄讚」委員、幹事長已經有告訴大家，而且各院都有上來講目前的狀況。我這邊也整理了一個表格，其實我們可以看到，從2024年12月開始，考試院算是最幸運的，只有1個人被否決。大法官的部分您非常地清楚，7個人全部被否決，然後NCC在2025年6月的時候是立法院同意撤回4位提名，11月的時候4位被提名人都被否決，然後2025年12月，公視很多被提名人是文化界、企業界的知名人士，但有10位董事被否決。再來的中選會也有3位被否決。後來在今年4月，公視8個審查委員乾脆請辭，就無法審查了，所以公視董事現在已經幾乎難產。然後今年5月，檢察總長雖然只有1人，但是也是非常嚴重的事情，也被否決。","目前首長為代理的部分，我想您今天的報告有講，司法院的代理是怎麼產生的？"],["高秘書長金枝：我們是依照司法院組織法，當院長、副院長出缺，就由總統就大法官裡面來指定。"],["范委員雲：好，監察院、國家通訊傳播委員會、公平交易委員會、最高檢察署都有代理的狀況，這個您了解吧？"],["高秘書長金枝：是。"],["范委員雲：我想請問您，您覺得憲政跟獨立機關首長，遇到我們剛剛所講的，持續缺額、需要代理是民主的常態嗎？"],["高秘書長金枝：當然，我們期待憲政機關彼此一定要溝通，一定要折衝、協力，產生應該要有的首長，這是必然的。"],["范委員雲：您剛剛講的折衝我很同意，可是現在需要折衝的不是只有一個機關，我們看到司法院、監察院、國家通訊傳播委員會、公平交易委員會以及最高檢察署的首長都是代理，這沒錯吧？"],["高秘書長金枝：沒錯啊！就是一個折衝協調的僵局嘛！"],["范委員雲：這些是不是都算是憲政機關、獨立機關？"],["高秘書長金枝：對，沒錯。"],["范委員雲：這麼多的憲政機關跟獨立機關都持續缺額嚴重到需要代理，你覺得這是民主常態嗎？"],["高秘書長金枝：當然不是啊！"],["范委員雲：當然不是民主常態，那到底是為什麼？"],["高秘書長金枝：就像我剛剛在報告裡面說的，這真的要仰賴大院、總統跟行政院去折衝、協力，剛剛黃秘書長也提到了，這是一個忠誠義務，我只能夠這樣回答。"],["范委員雲：所以您認同這麼多的憲政跟獨立機關首長持續缺額需要代理，真的不是民主常態嗎？如果只有一個，我們可能會說這是誰折衝並沒有做好等等，但是現在有這麼多個，就我剛剛看到的表格，2024年考試院算是受傷最輕的，只有一位被砍。您也認同這麼多重要的憲政機關、獨立機關合格的人選都不多，那是不是會導致再來的提名也會更困難？因為願意擔任的人越來越少。"],["高秘書長金枝：或許，應該會有這種狀況，因為有挫折感嘛！"],["范委員雲：今天召委排這個議程看起來是很合理，也就是要討論代理制度，那我們就回來一一討論代理制度好了。您剛剛講到司法院長目前是代理中，請問是否符合相關的規範呢？"],["高秘書長金枝：我們是完全依照司法院組織法的規定被總統指定任命的。"],["范委員雲：你們是依照哪一個法來處理這個代理？"],["高秘書長金枝：應該是司法院組織法第七條。"],["范委員雲：所以你們目前的代理制度完全符合相關的規範嘛！"],["高秘書長金枝：是的。"],["范委員雲：就如同你們的報告？"],["高秘書長金枝：是的。"],["范委員雲：您代表司法院，應該對我們所有的法制都了解。針對考試院的部分，就您的理解是不是也依照相關的代理規範？"],["高秘書長金枝：對，他們應該有三個是有規定的。"],["范委員雲：對，它是依照考試院組織法第八條「考試院院長因事故不能視事時，由副院長代理其職務」，所以也都有遵守相關的規範。請問監察院代理的制度有沒有遵守相關的規範？您代答應該沒問題吧！"],["高秘書長金枝：監察院組織法也有相關規定。"],["范委員雲：好，那是哪一條法律您知道嗎？"],["高秘書長金枝：他們應該也是由副院長代理的，應該是這樣。"],["范委員雲：它是依照監察院組織法第六條，就是院長出缺的時候，由副院長代理，其代理期間至總統提名繼任院長經立法院同意，總統任命之日為止。就您來看，依照監察院組織法，副院長代理可能要代理到什麼時候？"],["高秘書長金枝：好像組織法裡面並沒有期限規定。"],["范委員雲：因為一般民主常態不會想像到會有這麼多憲政機關無法產生人選。"],["高秘書長金枝：以司法院大法官而言，他的任期屆至就沒有了。"],["范委員雲：是，所以依照監察院組織法，副院長要代理到何時我們並不清楚，因為如果無法產生……"],["高秘書長金枝：如果他們的任期屆至的話，其實跟大法官一樣，如果原本就有任期，那屆至就沒有了。"],["范委員雲：以民主國家的常態，目前這些法規都沒有問題嗎？"],["高秘書長金枝：最少我認為司法院組織法是沒有問題的。"],["范委員雲：因為我們現在處理的，就像您剛剛講的並不是民主常態，對不對？"],["高秘書長金枝：可是跟委員報告，代理是法律規定的必要事項，至於沒有產生人選，這是兩件事……"],["范委員雲：一直無法產生人選的代理就不是民主常態對不對？"],["高秘書長金枝：沒有產生人選不是民主常態，可是不能說代理不是民主常態。"],["范委員雲：當然，我同意，代理是民主中偶爾會遇到的狀況，當然需要，而且法律原本的規範是良善的，但現在我們遇到的狀況不是民主常態，不管國會多數是因為怎麼樣的理由，包括人選不夠好或是說總統沒有協調折衝等等，我們看到的就是產生了一個非民主常態。其實公平會、國家通訊傳播委員會、中央選舉委員會都有相關的法源依據、都有相關首長代理的規範，我們再來看今天很多的爭議重點之一，最高檢察署現在的代理有沒有違反法源依據？"],["高秘書長金枝：可不可以請部長來回答？他比較熟悉。"],["范委員雲：所以鄭部長要回答嗎？那麼請部長來回答好了，原本的法規是怎麼規定這個代理的？"],["鄭部長銘謙：跟委員報告，這是依照法院組織法第六十六條，其實第六十六條第四款的規定是總長因故出缺或無法視事時，總統應於三個月內重新提出人選，經立法院同意任命之，其任期重行計算四年，不得連任。但後面還有第六款，因為第四款規定的是在總長任期的中途因故或者無法視事的情形，譬如請辭，這也是一個「因故」的情況。而第六款的規定是總長卸職的時候要依第二款，就是由總統提名，經立法院同意任命之，這是第六款的規定。針對提名這部分，萬一卸職的時候，提名人選沒有通過，因為法律沒有規定到這部分，當然我們就會循例來進行指派代理。"],["范委員雲：所以法律沒有規定，因為法律並沒有想像到有這種非民主常態，這麼多的人事案、這麼多的首長最後都出缺需要代理，我想至少目前並沒有違反任何一個相關的法源規範嘛！"],["鄭部長銘謙：目前沒有。"],["范委員雲：好，請回。我們討論了這麼久，謝謝剛剛高秘書長點出了一個重點，現在我們要討論的議題並不是民主常態，所以我們想要把法規修得更精確、應付非民主常態，對此我沒有特別的意見，但我覺得應該要回來正視這個問題。代理只是結果，這種大量的憲政機關、獨立機關因為人事無法通過需要代理的情況並不是民主常態，不合理的杯葛人事案才是真正的原因。","謝謝召委今天這麼安排，想要精確的讓非民主常態狀況的法規更完善，我也請召委反映一下，立法院是不是可以將人事案回歸理性審查，停止這種系統性的癱瘓憲政跟獨立機關，也請召委幫我們回應最根本的政治問題，不要讓這種非民主常態持續癱瘓我們的憲政跟獨立機關，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的提醒，我想立法院現在也都是很理性的去審查每一位人事案的被提名人，當然我們在這裡也要呼籲賴總統可以依憲趕快提名各重要機關人選，包含大法官的提名，謝謝。","接下來請沈發惠委員。沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員不在。","接下來請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-21","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","林沛祥","林倩綺","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","范雲","許宇甄","蔡其昌","沈發惠","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":63,"meetingDate":["2026-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1155501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、考試院秘書長、監察院秘書長、法務部部長、公平交易委員會、國家通訊傳\n播委員會、中央選舉委員會針對「我國憲政機關、獨立機關首長代理制度之現況與精進」進行專\n題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155501_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}