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主席謝謝 麻煩請陳次長好 請次長委員好好 次長好獨駕零容忍但是我們看到現在獨駕的事件還是頻傳就這兩天的新聞彰化大型連結車撞民宅獨駕車內搜出毒品還有槍彈駕駛遭羈押"},{"start":29.522,"end":34.349,"text":"前兩天獨駕在三歲女兒撞入安全帽墊駕駛是遇鵝網紅"},{"start":38.047,"end":66,"text":"還有我們看到6月20號的時候5000名警力全台抓毒將一個晚上查獲155件換言之這絕對不是冰山一角這其實是過去可能因為毒品的這個檢視沒有說那麼的明確而沒有辦法及時的掌握再加上新興毒品的氾濫現在吸食這一托米子的門檻非常的低甚至可能"},{"start":67.04,"end":94.298,"text":"購買也相對方便也因此造成這樣的一個漏洞但本時要講的是吸食毒品本身就已經是犯法更重要的是你不能吸食毒品之後還開車上路車子就已經變成是殺人兇器所以我想我們看到行政院的版本這邊有一起共同的方向那我就先來請教行政院的版本裡面是講是說所有毒價就是一路一路沒路車輛對不對好那我們要怎麼樣執行"},{"start":96.269,"end":119.258,"text":"說明一下因為現在的狀況本市有看到五千名警力全台抓獨駕一個晚上查獲一百五十五人當中扣留了一百五十四輛車好一百五十四輛車那這是第一步扣留就是在第一線的一個執行的時候你只要確認他是獨駕或說那個柿子有反應車輛馬上就扣留那再來是一致保管那一致保管之後怎麼樣"},{"start":120.795,"end":138.11,"text":"一致保管車輛以後 後續就要看獨駕的一個行為因為他有的可能是如果是觸犯刑法的話就會從刑事法令去完成相關的一個程序程序都完備了以後才確認是要沒入這個車輛"},{"start":138.871,"end":153.721,"text":"沒有 所以但是我現在講的是說我們先來版本嘛就我們要求就是獨駕就是末路車輛嘛本系列版本也是如此行政版本也是如此末路車輛只是最後的這個行政處分的的最終結但是你剛剛委員會不會提到所以這樣子有可能過程的時候查到"},{"start":154.341,"end":180.489,"text":"他查到的時候他的車輛就已經是我們一致保管其實就已經達到這個有點是末路就是他不能再使用了那至於他相關的程序如果是觸犯刑法的要刑法的相關的要程序要走完的以後通常一般的案件來講走完會多久這個就要看這個不是你們不能制定法令你不了解整個流程那如果不了解整個流程的話那有可能一個晚上就155台"},{"start":181.949,"end":202.041,"text":"那我們現在我現在就探討比較務實就怎麼樣執行層面因為本席剛剛提案說明你也有聽嘛我們重點是說我們現在拉很高就是說我告訴你說獨駕就是末路車輛所以大家不要心存僥倖那但是我現在要探討就是說實際你們要怎麼執行是交通部跟法務部跟警政署大家共同要配合啊"},{"start":202.561,"end":215.355,"text":"是沒有錯所以他的車子會先移到我們的監理機關監理機關所以目前監理機關有多少我們譬如說全台以台北市來講好不好台北市現在有多少譬如說獨駕我們已經這個一致的這個車輛放在監理機關"},{"start":217.25,"end":237.81,"text":"跟委員報告一下我大概補充說明一下就是說第一個部分的話大概現行稽查的部分的話大概就是說比如說這個獨駕或是這個酒駕的部分的話大概會有涉及到刑法跟處罰條例的一個部分那基本上涉及到行政法的一個部分的話就是當場舉發然後這個一致保管車輛"},{"start":240.413,"end":269.156,"text":"那一次保管車輛就會先拖回這個各執法機關的這個車輛局長你沒有聽得懂我的問題我現在是問說現在so far有多少因為就剛剛次長講說他不確定說這個流程要走多久假設三個月那三個月內有多少車輛就會被保管在那邊那以及我們現在講沒路如果說我們現在已經確定就是說我們的修法方案一次沒路的話那車輛就要處理嘛這是整個配套措施但目前為止沒有看到我們的配套"},{"start":270.256,"end":293.864,"text":"車輛儀式保管場的部分是在各地方警察執法機關這邊是所以22個縣市各執法機關都有配置這一個相關所以不是監理站是警察機關對對對所以你剛剛也講錯了嘛好那沒關係那現在移入到警察機關之後譬如說三個月內確認那我們要沒入車輛就要做處理嘛因為不可能無限保管嘛"},{"start":294.284,"end":309.605,"text":"我現在講的就是說末路車輛完之後案子裁決完 定案完之後車輛就處理了那車輛處理的部分的話各地方政府都有訂這個車輛這個就是保管處理的辦法包括拍賣包括誰執行這個消費就是"},{"start":312.409,"end":327.47,"text":"各處罰機關來處理各處罰機關所以又是警政單位舉法是在警察機關但是裁決確定完之後處罰機關在六都就是這一個交通局地方政府那在16個縣市的部分是在我們各監理機關"},{"start":328.291,"end":332.674,"text":"市長本席為什麼會提這個問題其實就是大家已經看到我們都支持末路車輛這是本席先提出來的版本嘛但本席現在要講的是說我們後續的執行"},{"start":348.323,"end":369.61,"text":"如果我們怕是說我們修法完之後沒路車輛結果到最後變成是車輛大塞車啊沒有地方去保管以及趕快要去做處理來 沒路車輛或車輛保管一致保管的這個在處罰條例裡頭都已有明文規定而且實施運作很久而且都有訂定相關的一個辦法在做處理所以這"},{"start":370.65,"end":388.033,"text":"大部分是警察警官所以我覺得是不是可以請警務署來說明一下這個程序所以不會造成剛才委員講的漏路了以後車輛是沒辦法處理的你現在就是本席我們就提出來的修法我現在就要問整個流程你現在很顯然就是沒有算出那個數目嘛"},{"start":388.994,"end":411.35,"text":"如果說我們一個晚上有一百五十幾台那你要那個時間好啦 市長你這樣子 你給本席一個完整的說明以及就是說你們現在整個配套那本席有提到剛剛我開宗明義提案說明的時候就有講到本席的版本跟行政院現在最大的不同就行政院是說一律沒路但是如果說他是偷來的車咧那要不要沒路"},{"start":413.292,"end":440.667,"text":"這個是我剛才有跟這個委員特別提到的就是說行政法法大概22條有特別提到非出於故意過失不罰所以說原則上還要看這樣的一個行為是不是所以我們不要讓這個毒蟲他去鑽這個漏洞嘛如果說他敢已經他是吸毒了然後他故意去偷別人的車來開甚至像剛剛本席講到的彰化這個連結車他有可能那個連結車不是他自己的車他是公司車"},{"start":441.607,"end":460.342,"text":"那這樣會變成是說那台車也不會沒路是不是那要善盡保管責任原則上他的這個公司車的話這個被沒路的機會很大公司車也可以被沒路當然啦如果說公司這個負責人已經有告知他了但是他還是去獨駕"},{"start":461.483,"end":478.24,"text":"那要看他怎麼告示他不是簡單的告示兩個字就因為他還是牽涉到公私治理啊但是本席沒有錯當然公私治理一定很重要就是說本來相關的人也有相關的責任但本席現在講的是說這個獨駕的部分這個駕駛者他也要加重處罰"},{"start":479.341,"end":508.12,"text":"本席也認為是說他就如果說他有偷來的車他有或者是說去租車甚至現在相關的租車的平台很方便假設他是用這個共享機車甚至騎U-bike那這樣子會不會認定那不管怎麼樣本席認為是說只要你吸毒之後還去上路這其實就已經是不特定的殺人的一個故意也因此本席要講是說那這樣的話他應該要加重他的刑責"},{"start":509.421,"end":528.667,"text":"加重行程的部分我跟委員報告要問一下法務部或其他單位因為處罰條例沒有在處理新則的那加重罰緩呢加重罰緩的話原則上我們就尊重整個委員會大家討論的一個結果所以算是可以正面不會反對就對了對於加重罰緩我們不會反對"},{"start":531.452,"end":556.253,"text":"來那最後本席還在提到一個就是說這也是參考韓國現在的一個方向就是說韓國他們也面臨獨駕也是相對嚴峻也因此他們也有提出來就是連坐的一個部分但現在我們大家考慮到比較多的一個層面是說如果說乘客同車的一個乘客他要去判定說是不是明知駕駛他有吸毒來開車這可能就是一個未來在"},{"start":557.274,"end":580.765,"text":"認定上面如果總不能讓這個駕駛這個乘客他就一句說他不知道然後就好像脫身脫罪所以在這個部分我們有沒有相關的配套我想這部分這個在這個法定在討論的時候過程中我們大概就有跟因為這牽涉到實務執行警察在取締的問題所以我們大概有請教過警政署那如果有必要的話等一下也可以請警政署來做說明"},{"start":581.525,"end":604.818,"text":"那原則上呢 剛才委員特別提到的各種情勢呢還是要依個案的事實來判定喔他是不是是否已經知道 明知或可得知駕駛人施用毒品以及是否未盡勸阻的義務等等來判斷他是不是可以免責啊所以原則上不會是說他一句說他不知道就可以脫罪 是 對不對因為那些事務上 我們也是會在後續施行的時候來跟大家明確的宣導"},{"start":609.361,"end":629.092,"text":"好 因為食物上其實這就是次長你有抓到重點食物上很有可能現在依托米子因為電子煙相對方便也因此很多的獨駕其實他的樣態是邊開邊吸那如果說邊開邊吸的話同車的駕駛不可能不知道這第一個第二個為什麼會講是說同車的駕駛會讓這一個人開車說不定同車的駕駛吸更多"},{"start":635.014,"end":649.63,"text":"可能他譬如說兩三個人這跟酒駕其實是類似的酒駕一台車譬如兩三個人的時候為什麼會指定那一個駕駛開車可能是因為四個人三個人都有喝酒那只是那一個人喝的相對少然後他來開車那一樣的道理如果說獨駕的話"},{"start":650.891,"end":678.112,"text":"會不會同車都有吸食的一個狀況那當然同車的駕駛該檢驗譬如說攔檢到車輛駕駕駛假設有毒價反應的話同車駕駛是不是應該也要一併來做一個毒價的毒品的檢視這一點在實務上來講是不是應該要一起支持這可能就要由現場執行的員警來判斷警政署能幫我回答一下今天交通警政署來的單位是交通組的副組長"},{"start":684.839,"end":706.74,"text":"官員報告一下那個車子攔查下來的時候我們會看看車駕駛人還有其他車主如果現場有毒品的話我們可能會都會一併帶回去這個車內有毒品就是所有同車都一起我們都會帶回去N一下是啦那但是我現在講說比較現場實務的狀況是如果說第一你還沒有辦法攔"},{"start":708.481,"end":721.968,"text":"盤查車裡面的狀況嘛那你第一步一定是先檢視這個駕駛人的反應嘛那駕駛人反應之後就先讓他做試紙的一個測試那測試完假設是陽性反應 有吸毒那同車乘客是不是一併也一起測試"},{"start":725.254,"end":739.465,"text":"觀察看看其他車主他有沒有如果說有其他不是觀察比較有可能的因為大概同車的情況來講都是吸毒人口會積極的比較多一點是嘛這就食物上的狀況嘛食物上的大概是這個情形跟"},{"start":740.245,"end":755.279,"text":"那我們看看這個的通測有沒有其他比如說小朋友這些我們都不困住我們只會注重有沒有類似吸毒人口聚集在一起的這種關聯性比較大的那就做一個一個觀察如果需要的話我們就待會去做一個後續的一個盤查"},{"start":755.759,"end":770.091,"text":"好所以這就是警務警政署的第一線的一個經驗那我想交通部我們這邊也了解就是說在修法的過程裡面我們就共同就是獨駕連坐其實它的意義在於是互相提醒跟互相要求就不要開車"},{"start":771.232,"end":792.358,"text":"你吸毒已經是違法了那你就不要開車上路那如果說你還敢跟已經吸毒的人駕駛一起開車上路抱歉你也有責任你也有不管是刑責不管是罰款都要一併連帶責任要求他們就是這樣子互相警惕不要開車這跟嚇阻酒駕是一樣的概念但毒駕更為嚴峻是因為你可能邊開邊吸會造成"},{"start":794.398,"end":822.259,"text":"更多人不確定的因素的一個傷亡好不好那我們逐條討論的時候也請次長也請相關同仁針對本席的版本能夠加強的態度我們加強還有更重要當我們修法三讀通過之後報導讓大家知道現在獨駕就是一摸路車一樣你開超跑我摸超跑你騎摩托車我摸摩托車你開什麼車我就摸什麼車讓他知道不要上路最重要好不好謝謝"},{"start":824.462,"end":824.484,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:24.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:25.050000+08:00","text":"主席，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:25.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:26.731000+08:00","text":"麻煩請陳次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:27.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:33.537000+08:00","text":"請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:33.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:33.737000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:34.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:34.638000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:35.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:43:40.403000+08:00","text":"毒駕零容忍，但是我們看到現在毒駕的事件還是頻傳。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:43:40.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:09.371000+08:00","text":"就這兩天的新聞，彰化大型聯結車撞民宅，毒駕，車內搜出毒品還有槍彈，駕駛遭羈押；前兩天，毒駕載3歲女兒撞入安全帽店，駕駛是育兒網紅；還有我們看到6月20號的時候，5,000名警力全臺抓毒駕，一個晚上查獲155件。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:10.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:32.882000+08:00","text":"換言之，這絕對不是冰山一角，這其實是過去可能因為毒品的檢視沒有那麼地明確，而沒有辦法即時地掌握，再加上新興毒品的氾濫，現在吸食依托咪酯的門檻非常地低，甚至可能購買也相對方便，也因此造成這樣的一個漏洞。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:33.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:43.309000+08:00","text":"但本席要講的是，吸食毒品本身就已經犯法，更重要的是不能吸食毒品之後還開車上路，車子會變成殺人凶器。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:44.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:56.318000+08:00","text":"看到行政院版本有共同的方向，我就先來請教，行政院版本是講所有毒駕就是一律沒入車輛，對不對？是的。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:56.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:57.278000+08:00","text":"那我們要怎麼樣執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:44:59.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:44:59.429000+08:00","text":"說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:00.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:18.516000+08:00","text":"因為現在的狀況，本席有看到5,000名警力全臺抓毒駕，一個晚上查獲155人，當中扣留了154輛車，這是第一步扣留，就是在第一線執行的時候，你只要確認他是毒駕，或是試紙有反應，車輛馬上就扣留。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:19.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:22.258000+08:00","text":"再來是移置保管，移置保管之後怎麼樣？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:24.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:37.487000+08:00","text":"移置保管車輛以後，後續就要看這個毒駕行為，他如果是觸犯刑法的話，就會從刑事法令去完成相關的程序。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:37.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:41.110000+08:00","text":"程序都完備了以後，才確認是要沒入這部車輛。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:42.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:49.656000+08:00","text":"但是我現在講的是我們現在的版本嘛，我們要求毒駕就是沒入車輛嘛，本席的版本也是如此，行政院的版本也是如此。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:49.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:54.579000+08:00","text":"是，沒入車輛只是最後行政處分的最終結，但是剛才委員特別提到……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:54.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:45:55.580000+08:00","text":"所以這樣子有可能他查到……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:45:55.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:04.663000+08:00","text":"過程的時候……查到他的車輛就移置保管，其實就已經達到有一點像沒入，他不能再使用了。是。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:05.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:11.865000+08:00","text":"至於相關的程序，如果是觸犯刑法的，刑法相關程序要走完了以後，確認了……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:12.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:14.626000+08:00","text":"通常以一般案件來講，走完會多久？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:15.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:15.686000+08:00","text":"這個就要看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:17.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:29.212000+08:00","text":"不是啊，你們不能制定法令卻不了解整個流程，如果不了解流程的話，有可能一個晚上就155臺……我現在探討得比較務實，執行層面是怎麼樣。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:29.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:37.817000+08:00","text":"因為本席剛剛提案說明你也有聽嘛，我們重點是說我們現在拉很高，就是我告訴你說毒駕就是沒入車輛，所以大家不要心存僥倖。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:37.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:40.898000+08:00","text":"但是我現在要探討的是，實際你們要怎麼執行？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:41.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:45.021000+08:00","text":"是交通部、法務部跟警政署，大家共同要配合啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:45.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:45.902000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:45.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:49.045000+08:00","text":"所以他的車子會先移到監理機關……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:49.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:50.987000+08:00","text":"是，目前監理機關有多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:46:51.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:46:58.355000+08:00","text":"全臺以臺北市來講，現在有多少毒駕已經移置的車輛放在監理機關？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:00.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:03.173000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我大概補充說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:04.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:14.684000+08:00","text":"第一個，現行稽查的部分，譬如毒駕或酒駕，大概會涉及到刑法跟處罰條例。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:16.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:28.497000+08:00","text":"基本上涉及到行政罰的部分，就是當場舉發，然後移置保管車輛，移置保管車輛就會先拖回各執法機關的車輛……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:28.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:29.858000+08:00","text":"局長，你沒有聽懂我的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:29.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:32.660000+08:00","text":"我現在是問到目前為止有多少？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:34.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:41.547000+08:00","text":"剛剛次長說他不確定這個流程要走多久，假設3個月，那3個月內有多少車輛會被保管在那邊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:41.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:49.474000+08:00","text":"以及我們現在講沒入，如果現在已經確定我們的修法方向一致是沒入的話，那車輛就要處理嘛，這是整個配套措施。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:49.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:52.136000+08:00","text":"但目前為止，沒有看到我們的配套。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:53.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:47:58.258000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，車輛移置保管場的部分是在各地方警察執法機關。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:47:58.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:02.779000+08:00","text":"所以22個縣市各執法機關都有配置相關……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:02.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:05.700000+08:00","text":"所以不是監理站，是警察機關？對、對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:05.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:07.921000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛也講錯了嘛，沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:08.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:16.844000+08:00","text":"現在移入到警察機關之後，譬如說3個月內確認，就要處理沒入的車輛，因為不可能無限保管嘛！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:17.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:19.667000+08:00","text":"我現在講的是沒入車輛完之後……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:20.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:23.793000+08:00","text":"案子裁決完、定案完之後，車輛就處理了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:25.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:25.415000+08:00","text":"車輛處理的部分……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:25.415000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:26.415000+08:00","text":"怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:26.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:31.383000+08:00","text":"各地方政府都有訂定車輛保管處理辦法，包括拍賣、銷毀……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:31.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:31.984000+08:00","text":"誰執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:35.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:36.510000+08:00","text":"各處罰機關來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:37.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:39.434000+08:00","text":"所以又是警政單位？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:41.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:46.524000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，舉發是在警察機關，但是裁決確定完之後，處罰機關在六都就是交通局……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:46.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:47.045000+08:00","text":"地方政府？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林局長福山","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:47.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:50.470000+08:00","text":"在16個縣市的部分是在我們各監理機關。是，好。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:50.470000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:51.711000+08:00","text":"今天我們討論相關修法，到目前為止警政署也沒有上來，我們地方政府也沒有來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:51.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:52.152000+08:00","text":"次長，本席為什麼會提這個問題？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:52.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:48:54.693000+08:00","text":"其實就是大家已經看到我們都支持沒入車輛，這是本席先提出來的版本嘛！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:48:54.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:20.306000+08:00","text":"但本席現在要講的是，我們後續的執行，我們怕的是修法完之後沒入車輛，結果到最後變成車輛大塞車，沒有地方保管，要趕快去做處理。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:21.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:34.351000+08:00","text":"委員，沒入車輛或車輛移置保管在處罰條例裡頭都已有明文規定且運作了很久，也都有訂定相關辦法在處理，大部分是警察機關……","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:34.351000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:35.351000+08:00","text":"次長，但是本席現在講是我們已經提了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:34.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:42.562000+08:00","text":"所以是不是可以請警政署來說明程序，不會造成剛才委員講的，沒入了以後車輛沒辦法處理。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:42.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:49:51.013000+08:00","text":"次長，現在就是我們提出修法，我要問整個流程，很顯然就是你沒有算出那個數目嘛。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:49:51.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:02.221000+08:00","text":"如果說你們一個晚上有一百五十幾臺，你要那個時間……好啦，次長，這樣子，你給本席一個完整的說明，以及你們現在整個配套。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:03.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:13.829000+08:00","text":"本席有提到，剛剛我開宗明義提案說明的時候就有講到，本席的版本跟行政院現在最大不同，行政院是說一律沒入，但是如果說他是偷來的車呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:13.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:14.190000+08:00","text":"要不要沒入？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:16.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:29.279000+08:00","text":"這個是我剛才有跟委員特別提到的，行政罰法第二十二條有特別提到，非出於故意過失不罰，所以說原則上還要看這樣的一個行為是不是故意或過失。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:29.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:32.901000+08:00","text":"所以我們不要讓毒蟲去鑽這個漏洞嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:33.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:43.667000+08:00","text":"如果說他敢，他已經吸毒了，還故意去偷別人的車來開，甚至像剛剛本席講到的彰化聯結車，有可能那個聯結車不是他自己的車，而是公司車。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:44.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:47.549000+08:00","text":"這樣會變成那臺車也不會沒入，是不是？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:49.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:51.032000+08:00","text":"要善盡保管責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:51.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:56.617000+08:00","text":"原則上，公司車被沒入的機會很大。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:57.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:58.618000+08:00","text":"公司車也可以被沒入？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:59.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:50:59.359000+08:00","text":"當然啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:50:59.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:01.301000+08:00","text":"他要善盡……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:01.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:03.342000+08:00","text":"負責人已經有告知他了，但是他還是去毒駕……","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:04.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:09.969000+08:00","text":"那要看他怎麼告知，不是簡單的告知兩個字，因為還是牽涉到公司治理，整個公司治理上……","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:11.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:13.112000+08:00","text":"對，沒有錯，當然公司治理一定很重要。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:13.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:21.240000+08:00","text":"本來相關的人就有相關的責任，但本席現在講的是毒駕的部分，這個駕駛者他也要加重處罰。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:22.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:39.312000+08:00","text":"本席也認為，如果他有偷來的車，或者是去租車，現在租車平臺很方便，假設他是用共享機車，甚至騎YouBike，這樣子會不會認定？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:40.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:47.678000+08:00","text":"不管怎麼樣，本席認為只要吸毒之後還上路，其實就已經是不特定殺人的故意。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:48.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:51:51.120000+08:00","text":"也因此，本席要講的是，這樣的話，應該要加重他的刑責。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:51:52.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:00.564000+08:00","text":"加重刑責的部分，跟委員報告，要問一下法務部或是其他單位，因為處罰條例裡沒有在處理刑責。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:01.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:02.444000+08:00","text":"好，那加重罰鍰呢？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:02.444000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:03.444000+08:00","text":"你支不支持？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:02.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:07.246000+08:00","text":"加重罰鍰，原則上我們尊重委員會大家討論的結果。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:08.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:10.307000+08:00","text":"好，所以算是正面，不會反對就對了？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:10.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:11.667000+08:00","text":"對於加重罰鍰，我們不會反對。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:14.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:25.181000+08:00","text":"最後本席還要再提一件事，這也是參考韓國現在的方向，韓國面臨毒駕也是相對嚴峻，因此他們也有提出來連坐的部分。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:25.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:52:48.338000+08:00","text":"但現在大家考慮比較多的層面是，如果同車的乘客，要去判定說是不是明知駕駛有吸毒還開車，這可能就是未來在認定上面……總不能讓乘客說一句他不知道，就脫身、脫罪，所以這個部分，你們有沒有相關配套？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:52:49.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:03.745000+08:00","text":"這部分法令在討論的過程中，我們就有跟……因為這牽涉到實務執行、警察在取締的問題，所以我們有請教過警政署，如果有必要的話，等一下也可以請警政署來說明。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:04.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:23.696000+08:00","text":"原則上，剛才委員特別提到的各種情事，還是要依個案的事實來判定他是否已經知道（明知）或可得知駕駛人施用毒品，以及是否未盡勸阻的義務等等，來判斷他是不是可以免責，所以原則上不會他說一句他不知道就可以……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:23.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:26.338000+08:00","text":"不會說一句他不知道就可以脫罪，對不對？是。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:26.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:26.698000+08:00","text":"因為其實實務上……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:26.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:27.818000+08:00","text":"相關處理的程序，我們也會在後續施行的時候來跟大家明確的宣導。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:34.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:50.051000+08:00","text":"次長你有抓到重點，實務上很有可能因為現在吸食依托咪酯、取得電子煙相對方便，也因此很多毒駕其實他的樣態是邊開邊吸，如果邊開邊吸的話，同車的乘客不可能不知道，這是第一個。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:50.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:51.452000+08:00","text":"第二個，為什麼同車的人會讓這個人開車？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:51.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:53:52.072000+08:00","text":"說不定同車的人吸更多。對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:53:58.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:05.702000+08:00","text":"譬如說，2、3個人……這跟酒駕其實是類似的，一臺車2、3個人，為什麼會指定那個駕駛開車？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:05.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:16.633000+08:00","text":"可能是因為3個人都有喝酒，只是那個人喝的相對少，他來開車；一樣的道理，毒駕會不會同車都有吸食的狀況？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:16.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:27.061000+08:00","text":"當然同車的駕駛該檢驗，譬如說攔檢到車輛，駕駛假設有毒駕反應的話，同車的人是不是應該也要一併做毒品的檢視？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:27.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:30.223000+08:00","text":"這一點在實務上是不是應該要一起支持？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:31.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:35.067000+08:00","text":"這個可能就要由現場執行的員警來判斷。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:35.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:36.028000+08:00","text":"警政署能不能回答一下？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:36.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:41.112000+08:00","text":"今天警政署來的單位是交通組的副組長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副組長朝新","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:48.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:54:58.649000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，車子攔查下來的時候，我們會看駕駛人還有其他乘客，如果現場有毒品的話，我們可能都會一併帶回去。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:54:59.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:01.912000+08:00","text":"車內有毒品，就會所有同車都一起……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳副組長朝新","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:02.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:04.495000+08:00","text":"幾乎都會，我們都會帶回去驗一下。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:05.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:24.968000+08:00","text":"但是我現在講的是現場實務的狀況，在你還沒有辦法盤查車裡面的狀況，你第一步一定是先檢視駕駛人的反應，檢視駕駛人反應之後，就先讓他做試紙的測試，測試完假設是陽性反應，有吸毒，同車的乘客是不是一併也一起測試？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳副組長朝新","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:28.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:39.302000+08:00","text":"會照SOP做個觀察，看看其他乘客有沒有……因為同車的吸毒人口會聚集，這種狀況比較多一點。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:39.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:40.643000+08:00","text":"是嘛，這就是實務上的狀況，對不對？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳副組長朝新","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:43.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:55:58.259000+08:00","text":"我們會看看同車其他人，比如說小朋友我們就不會檢測，我們只會注重有沒有類似吸毒人口聚集在一起的狀況，觀察這種關聯性比較大的，如果需要的話，我們還會帶回去做後續的盤查。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:55:58.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:56:40.320000+08:00","text":"好，這就是警政署第一線的經驗，我想交通部也了解，在修法的過程裡面，我們共同支持毒駕連坐，其實它的意義在於互相提醒跟互相要求不要開車，你吸毒已經是違法了，你就不要開車上路，如果你還敢跟已經吸毒的駕駛一起開車上路，抱歉，你也有責任，你也有刑責、罰鍰，都有一併連帶責任，要求他們互相警惕不要開車，這跟嚇阻酒駕是一樣的概念，但毒駕更為嚴峻，因為你可能邊開邊吸，會造成更多不確定因素的傷亡，好不好？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-06-25T09:56:40.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:05.259000+08:00","text":"我們逐條討論的時候，請次長、相關同仁針對本席的版本能夠加強態度，我們去加強，更重要的是，當我們修法三讀通過之後，報導讓大家知道，現在毒駕就是一率沒入車輛，你開超跑、我沒入超跑，你騎摩托車、我沒入摩托車，你開什麼車、我就沒入什麼車，讓他知道不要上路最重要，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳次長彥伯","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:05.759000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:06.901857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:07.201857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:12.344714+08:00","text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言，謝謝次長跟各單位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-25T09:57:12.644714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-25T09:57:14.930429+08:00","text":"請徐富癸委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":173,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時43分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請陳次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長好。毒駕零容忍，但是我們看到現在毒駕的事件還是頻傳。就這兩天的新聞，彰化大型聯結車撞民宅，毒駕，車內搜出毒品還有槍彈，駕駛遭羈押；前兩天，毒駕載3歲女兒撞入安全帽店，駕駛是育兒網紅；還有我們看到6月20號的時候，5,000名警力全臺抓毒駕，一個晚上查獲155件。換言之，這絕對不是冰山一角，這其實是過去可能因為毒品的檢視沒有那麼地明確，而沒有辦法即時地掌握，再加上新興毒品的氾濫，現在吸食依托咪酯的門檻非常地低，甚至可能購買也相對方便，也因此造成這樣的一個漏洞。但本席要講的是，吸食毒品本身就已經犯法，更重要的是不能吸食毒品之後還開車上路，車子會變成殺人凶器。看到行政院版本有共同的方向，我就先來請教，行政院版本是講所有毒駕就是一律沒入車輛，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們要怎麼樣執行？說明一下。因為現在的狀況，本席有看到5,000名警力全臺抓毒駕，一個晚上查獲155人，當中扣留了154輛車，這是第一步扣留，就是在第一線執行的時候，你只要確認他是毒駕，或是試紙有反應，車輛馬上就扣留。再來是移置保管，移置保管之後怎麼樣？"],["陳次長彥伯：移置保管車輛以後，後續就要看這個毒駕行為，他如果是觸犯刑法的話，就會從刑事法令去完成相關的程序。程序都完備了以後，才確認是要沒入這部車輛。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我現在講的是我們現在的版本嘛，我們要求毒駕就是沒入車輛嘛，本席的版本也是如此，行政院的版本也是如此。"],["陳次長彥伯：是，沒入車輛只是最後行政處分的最終結，但是剛才委員特別提到……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這樣子有可能他查到……"],["陳次長彥伯：過程的時候……查到他的車輛就移置保管，其實就已經達到有一點像沒入，他不能再使用了。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["陳次長彥伯：至於相關的程序，如果是觸犯刑法的，刑法相關程序要走完了以後，確認了……"],["洪委員孟楷：通常以一般案件來講，走完會多久？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個就要看……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，你們不能制定法令卻不了解整個流程，如果不了解流程的話，有可能一個晚上就155臺……我現在探討得比較務實，執行層面是怎麼樣。因為本席剛剛提案說明你也有聽嘛，我們重點是說我們現在拉很高，就是我告訴你說毒駕就是沒入車輛，所以大家不要心存僥倖。但是我現在要探討的是，實際你們要怎麼執行？是交通部、法務部跟警政署，大家共同要配合啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，沒有錯。所以他的車子會先移到監理機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，目前監理機關有多少？全臺以臺北市來講，現在有多少毒駕已經移置的車輛放在監理機關？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，我大概補充說明一下。第一個，現行稽查的部分，譬如毒駕或酒駕，大概會涉及到刑法跟處罰條例。基本上涉及到行政罰的部分，就是當場舉發，然後移置保管車輛，移置保管車輛就會先拖回各執法機關的車輛……"],["洪委員孟楷：局長，你沒有聽懂我的問題。我現在是問到目前為止有多少？剛剛次長說他不確定這個流程要走多久，假設3個月，那3個月內有多少車輛會被保管在那邊？以及我們現在講沒入，如果現在已經確定我們的修法方向一致是沒入的話，那車輛就要處理嘛，這是整個配套措施。但目前為止，沒有看到我們的配套。"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，車輛移置保管場的部分是在各地方警察執法機關。所以22個縣市各執法機關都有配置相關……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以不是監理站，是警察機關？"],["林局長福山：對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你剛剛也講錯了嘛，沒關係。現在移入到警察機關之後，譬如說3個月內確認，就要處理沒入的車輛，因為不可能無限保管嘛！我現在講的是沒入車輛完之後……"],["林局長福山：案子裁決完、定案完之後，車輛就處理了。車輛處理的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼處理？"],["林局長福山：各地方政府都有訂定車輛保管處理辦法，包括拍賣、銷毀……"],["洪委員孟楷：誰執行？"],["林局長福山：各處罰機關來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以又是警政單位？"],["林局長福山：跟委員報告，舉發是在警察機關，但是裁決確定完之後，處罰機關在六都就是交通局……"],["洪委員孟楷：地方政府？"],["林局長福山：在16個縣市的部分是在我們各監理機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，好。今天我們討論相關修法，到目前為止警政署也沒有上來，我們地方政府也沒有來。次長，本席為什麼會提這個問題？其實就是大家已經看到我們都支持沒入車輛，這是本席先提出來的版本嘛！但本席現在要講的是，我們後續的執行，我們怕的是修法完之後沒入車輛，結果到最後變成車輛大塞車，沒有地方保管，要趕快去做處理。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，沒入車輛或車輛移置保管在處罰條例裡頭都已有明文規定且運作了很久，也都有訂定相關辦法在處理，大部分是警察機關……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，但是本席現在講是我們已經提了……"],["陳次長彥伯：所以是不是可以請警政署來說明程序，不會造成剛才委員講的，沒入了以後車輛沒辦法處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，現在就是我們提出修法，我要問整個流程，很顯然就是你沒有算出那個數目嘛。如果說你們一個晚上有一百五十幾臺，你要那個時間……好啦，次長，這樣子，你給本席一個完整的說明，以及你們現在整個配套。本席有提到，剛剛我開宗明義提案說明的時候就有講到，本席的版本跟行政院現在最大不同，行政院是說一律沒入，但是如果說他是偷來的車呢？要不要沒入？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個是我剛才有跟委員特別提到的，行政罰法第二十二條有特別提到，非出於故意過失不罰，所以說原則上還要看這樣的一個行為是不是故意或過失。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我們不要讓毒蟲去鑽這個漏洞嘛！如果說他敢，他已經吸毒了，還故意去偷別人的車來開，甚至像剛剛本席講到的彰化聯結車，有可能那個聯結車不是他自己的車，而是公司車。這樣會變成那臺車也不會沒入，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：要善盡保管責任。原則上，公司車被沒入的機會很大。"],["洪委員孟楷：公司車也可以被沒入？"],["陳次長彥伯：當然啊！他要善盡……"],["洪委員孟楷：負責人已經有告知他了，但是他還是去毒駕……"],["陳次長彥伯：那要看他怎麼告知，不是簡單的告知兩個字，因為還是牽涉到公司治理，整個公司治理上……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，沒有錯，當然公司治理一定很重要。本來相關的人就有相關的責任，但本席現在講的是毒駕的部分，這個駕駛者他也要加重處罰。本席也認為，如果他有偷來的車，或者是去租車，現在租車平臺很方便，假設他是用共享機車，甚至騎YouBike，這樣子會不會認定？不管怎麼樣，本席認為只要吸毒之後還上路，其實就已經是不特定殺人的故意。也因此，本席要講的是，這樣的話，應該要加重他的刑責。"],["陳次長彥伯：加重刑責的部分，跟委員報告，要問一下法務部或是其他單位，因為處罰條例裡沒有在處理刑責。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那加重罰鍰呢？你支不支持？"],["陳次長彥伯：加重罰鍰，原則上我們尊重委員會大家討論的結果。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以算是正面，不會反對就對了？"],["陳次長彥伯：對於加重罰鍰，我們不會反對。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後本席還要再提一件事，這也是參考韓國現在的方向，韓國面臨毒駕也是相對嚴峻，因此他們也有提出來連坐的部分。但現在大家考慮比較多的層面是，如果同車的乘客，要去判定說是不是明知駕駛有吸毒還開車，這可能就是未來在認定上面……總不能讓乘客說一句他不知道，就脫身、脫罪，所以這個部分，你們有沒有相關配套？"],["陳次長彥伯：這部分法令在討論的過程中，我們就有跟……因為這牽涉到實務執行、警察在取締的問題，所以我們有請教過警政署，如果有必要的話，等一下也可以請警政署來說明。原則上，剛才委員特別提到的各種情事，還是要依個案的事實來判定他是否已經知道（明知）或可得知駕駛人施用毒品，以及是否未盡勸阻的義務等等，來判斷他是不是可以免責，所以原則上不會他說一句他不知道就可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：不會說一句他不知道就可以脫罪，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為其實實務上……"],["陳次長彥伯：相關處理的程序，我們也會在後續施行的時候來跟大家明確的宣導。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長你有抓到重點，實務上很有可能因為現在吸食依托咪酯、取得電子煙相對方便，也因此很多毒駕其實他的樣態是邊開邊吸，如果邊開邊吸的話，同車的乘客不可能不知道，這是第一個。","第二個，為什麼同車的人會讓這個人開車？說不定同車的人吸更多。"],["陳次長彥伯：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如說，2、3個人……這跟酒駕其實是類似的，一臺車2、3個人，為什麼會指定那個駕駛開車？可能是因為3個人都有喝酒，只是那個人喝的相對少，他來開車；一樣的道理，毒駕會不會同車都有吸食的狀況？當然同車的駕駛該檢驗，譬如說攔檢到車輛，駕駛假設有毒駕反應的話，同車的人是不是應該也要一併做毒品的檢視？這一點在實務上是不是應該要一起支持？"],["陳次長彥伯：這個可能就要由現場執行的員警來判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：警政署能不能回答一下？今天警政署來的單位是交通組的副組長。"],["陳副組長朝新：跟委員報告，車子攔查下來的時候，我們會看駕駛人還有其他乘客，如果現場有毒品的話，我們可能都會一併帶回去。"],["洪委員孟楷：車內有毒品，就會所有同車都一起……"],["陳副組長朝新：幾乎都會，我們都會帶回去驗一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是我現在講的是現場實務的狀況，在你還沒有辦法盤查車裡面的狀況，你第一步一定是先檢視駕駛人的反應，檢視駕駛人反應之後，就先讓他做試紙的測試，測試完假設是陽性反應，有吸毒，同車的乘客是不是一併也一起測試？"],["陳副組長朝新：會照SOP做個觀察，看看其他乘客有沒有……因為同車的吸毒人口會聚集，這種狀況比較多一點。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，這就是實務上的狀況，對不對？"],["陳副組長朝新：我們會看看同車其他人，比如說小朋友我們就不會檢測，我們只會注重有沒有類似吸毒人口聚集在一起的狀況，觀察這種關聯性比較大的，如果需要的話，我們還會帶回去做後續的盤查。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這就是警政署第一線的經驗，我想交通部也了解，在修法的過程裡面，我們共同支持毒駕連坐，其實它的意義在於互相提醒跟互相要求不要開車，你吸毒已經是違法了，你就不要開車上路，如果你還敢跟已經吸毒的駕駛一起開車上路，抱歉，你也有責任，你也有刑責、罰鍰，都有一併連帶責任，要求他們互相警惕不要開車，這跟嚇阻酒駕是一樣的概念，但毒駕更為嚴峻，因為你可能邊開邊吸，會造成更多不確定因素的傷亡，好不好？","我們逐條討論的時候，請次長、相關同仁針對本席的版本能夠加強態度，我們去加強，更重要的是，當我們修法三讀通過之後，報導讓大家知道，現在毒駕就是一率沒入車輛，你開超跑、我沒入超跑，你騎摩托車、我沒入摩托車，你開什麼車、我就沒入什麼車，讓他知道不要上路最重要，好不好？謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的發言，謝謝次長跟各單位。","請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":336,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-23-20","speakers":["黃健豪","張智倫","洪孟楷","林倩綺","陳清龍","李昆澤","徐富癸","許智傑","萬美玲","魯明哲","邱若華","盧縣一","林俊憲","游顥","陳素月","傅崐萁"],"page_start":283,"meetingDate":["2026-06-25"],"gazette_id":"1155502","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155502_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期交通委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員羅美玲等18人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第二十一條條文修正草案」案、二、台\n灣民眾黨黨團擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例部分條文修正草案」案、三、委員張智倫等 19 人、\n四、台灣民眾黨黨團、五、委員郭昱晴等17 人、六、委員林思銘等22 人、七、委員洪孟楷等21\n人、八、委員黃秀芳等20人、九、委員林倩綺等22人及十、委員邱鎮軍等20人分別擬具「道路交\n通管理處罰條例第三十五條條文修正草案」案、十一、委員傅崐萁等18人擬具「道路交通管理處\n罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之一及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、十二、委員王義川等17人\n擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條、第三十五條之二及第六十七條條文修正草案」案、十\n三、委員涂權吉等19 人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第三十五條及第三十五條之三條文修正草\n案」案及十四、委員洪孟楷等16 人擬具「道路交通管理處罰條例第六十七條條文修正草案」案\n（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155502_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}