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沒有的話 議事錄就確定那麼我現在先介紹今天到場的委員首先是傅坤祺委員然後羅志強委員 葉元芝委員 黃建斌委員還有王宏威委員 林倩琦委員然後以及陳培宇委員 還有吳思瑤委員"},{"start":1572.987,"end":1595.33,"text":"那麼今天應邀列席的官員在場的有考試院的副秘書長美洪吳副秘書長教育部的鄭英耀部長還有次長朱俊彰次長權敘部的施能傑部長然後人事行政總處的蘇俊榮人事長好 謝謝那其餘的其餘"},{"start":1596.434,"end":1621.966,"text":"已經沒有介紹的列席代表本席就不再逐一介紹了另外本次會議呢機關提供的資料就送請委員參閱列席名單及資料書面都會列入公報記錄那麼本次會議討論十項排定會並案審查委員賴世寶等20人拟據的公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第67條條文修正草案等12案"},{"start":1627.318,"end":1643.623,"text":"那麼議程討論事項當中的第一到第十案已經經過114年10月20日第四會期本聯席會第一次會議報告及詢答完畢決議就是另定期繼續審查所以我們今天就是繼續審查"},{"start":1648.274,"end":1674.394,"text":"那麼由於討論事項有再併入審查的新提案總共兩案那麼所以現在就尚未進行提案說明的部分進行委員就是我們會就還沒有進行提案說明的部分我們來進行那麼可以請委員提案說明那每位時間是三分鐘那麼首先先請提案委員黃建斌委員先進行提案說明時間三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":1682.676,"end":1707.232,"text":"謝謝主席 在場的各位委員還有媒體朋友 大家早安那我想自從軍公教人員年金改革之後新進的公教人員呈現血膨勢的減少那114學年度甚至發生史上最嚴重的失職荒全國中小學失職缺額1萬人那就是因為我們年金改革在導致在職的公教"},{"start":1708.092,"end":1732.667,"text":"公教人員不敢提早退休那使得公教人員的整體薪資福利遠遠低於業界年輕人也擔心未來公教福利可能又會再砍所以不願意再投身在教育界的服務我想蔡政府當年推動年改過於粗糙把公教的年資補償金一刀切而且他的所得替代率每年往下調1.5%反而讓公教人員越活越痛苦"},{"start":1734.308,"end":1760.113,"text":"這一群退休的公教人員在民國50 60 70年代政府在沒有辦法給高薪又想要招攬人才擔任公教人員的情況之下承諾給予公教人員優惠的退休金所以才願意留在學校來教導學生為了國家來培育人才但是讓執政黨為了選票拿軍公教開刀砍了他們的退休金也抹殺了這一群退休公教人員過去的辛苦"},{"start":1761.033,"end":1783.894,"text":"那為了要保障既有公立學校教職退休生活同時也吸引更多青年人才投入我們的教師工作本席提出公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例第37條第38條及第67條修正草案是民國114年之後各年度所的替代率不再逐年降低保障公立"},{"start":1784.514,"end":1791.287,"text":"學校退休基本的生活需求那以上也希望我們各位草野各位所有的委員能夠一起來解決這個問題來支持這個提案謝謝"},{"start":1796.977,"end":1819.977,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那我們現在就先進行討論事項討論之前先請議事人員宣讀所有的提案條文那預估宣讀的時間大約是6分鐘另外為力審查如果有修正動議或附帶決議提出也請盡速將書面送交主席台必力印發現場進行討論那麼如果有已收到的修正動議議請一併宣讀 宣讀後即進行討論好 現在先請宣讀條文"},{"start":1824.677,"end":1847.272,"text":"討論事項公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例等修正案請參閱條文對照表委員張志倫等提案第三條第一項至第三項同先行條文增訂第四項如下前項人員不包含八十四年前以退休人員及退休之前或撫恤之辦理從其原法令第九條"},{"start":1848.516,"end":1874.107,"text":"第一項至第二項同性型條文修正第三項如下第一項鎖定退撫基金定期財務精算由退撫基金管理機關就退撫基金之收支管理與運用情形每三年精算一次每次至少精算五十年其不足部分除以本條第四十條規定各級政府每年所節省之退撫經費支出應全數依註退撫基金外中央政府應逐年編列預算依註"},{"start":1874.807,"end":1901.083,"text":"其預算金額不得低於各級政府每年所節省之退付經費支出之二倍國民黨黨團提案第三十七條第一項至第四項同線形條文第五項默劇修正為隨在職同等級人員本年供奉之調整重新計算增訂第六項如下本條附表三有關自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後逐年下降所得替代率之部分"},{"start":1901.843,"end":1914.656,"text":"不適用之 委員賴世保等提案第37條同國民黨黨團提案委員徐宇政等提案第37條同國民黨黨團提案委員張志倫等提案第37條對照國民黨黨團提案除第5項修正為"},{"start":1918.32,"end":1945.674,"text":"本條例實行前退休生肖者應按本條例實行時之待遇標準依前四項規定重新計算每月退休所得經審定後與中央主計機關發佈之消費者物價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十即依該成長率調整之第六項修正如下本條文修補表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定自一百十三年一月日起終止施用"},{"start":1946.494,"end":1973.43,"text":"其餘相同修正副表3如復建委員翁小林等18人提案第37條第1項至第5項同性情條文增訂第6項如下本條副表3有關自中華民國113年1月1日以後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之修正之副表3如復建委員黃建斌等提案第37條第1項至第2項同性情條文修正第3項"},{"start":1975.123,"end":1992.919,"text":"前項替代率之上限依退休教職預言損定之退休年資至中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低並依中華民國某年某月某日修正之附表三所列各年度替代率認定修正之附表三如附件"},{"start":1993.76,"end":2023.12,"text":"第四項同線型條文第五項刪除條文中不在兩個字之外其餘相同委員萬美玲等提案第三十七條同委員翁曉琳等十八人提案委員賴世寶等二十九人提案第三十八條第一項至第四項同線型條文第五項除了刪除條文中不在兩個字之外其餘同線型條文增訂第六項如下本條附表三有關中自中華民國一百十三年一月一日之後逐年下降所得替代率這部分不適用之"},{"start":2023.82,"end":2038.62,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第三十八條第一項至第四項同性情條文修正第五項本條例施行後退休生肖者應按退休生肖時之待遇標準依前四項規定計算每月退休所的經審定後"},{"start":2039.441,"end":2063.549,"text":"與中央主計機關發布之消費者無價指數累計成長率達增負百分之五十其依該成長率調整之增訂第六項如下本條文附表三有關於所得替代率逐年下降之規定自一百十三年一月一日起終止適用委員黃建斌等提案第三十八條第一項之第二項同現行條文修正第三項前項替代率之上限依退休教職員審定之退休年資"},{"start":2064.309,"end":2083.419,"text":"至中華民國一百十四年後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低並依中華民國某年某月某日修正之附表三所列各年度替代率認定第四項同現行條文第五項條文中除刪除除刪除不在兩個字之外其餘同現行條文委員賴世保等二十人提案第六十七條"},{"start":2084.915,"end":2100.477,"text":"除第一項條文中百分之五修正為百分之三每四年修正為每二年之外其餘同性型條文委員客之人等十八人提案第六十七條教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領之月付續金或遺族年金給付金額"},{"start":2101.298,"end":2122.787,"text":"於中央主計機關發布之消費者無價指數累計成長率達正負百分之五十應及該依該成長率調整之但成長率為零或負數時不予調整較職員退休後所得所領月退休金或移足所領之月撫恤金或移足年金依規定調整後之給付金額低於原給付金額時不予調整"},{"start":2123.447,"end":2149.376,"text":"委員虛與證等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為正百分之二不百分之五十及每四年修正為每二年外其餘同線型條文委員黃千豪等提案第67條除第一項條文中修正為應於發布日起三個月內予以調整其調整比率由行政院會同考試院制定公司定之或隨軍公教加薪比例調整其餘同線型條文"},{"start":2150.296,"end":2173.03,"text":"委員張志倫等提案第67條刪除 委員葉元智等提案第67條除第一項募具修正為 應於發布日期三個月內依成長率予以調整或隨均公交加薪比例調整其餘同性情條文委員翁曉琳等16人提案第67條教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族所領制月付屈金或遺族年金其不淨額"},{"start":2174.111,"end":2196.905,"text":"與中央主計機關發佈之消費者無價指數累計增長率達成百分之三十英語調整或至少每四年英語檢討其調整比率由考試院會同行政院考量國家經濟環境政府財政與退伍基金準備率定之調整比率不得低於消費者無價指數累計增長率之二分之一但成長率為零或負數時不予調整請向相關執行規定與本法實行細則定之"},{"start":2198.146,"end":2216.828,"text":"委員黃憲兵等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為達正負百分之二十其餘同性情條文委員萬美玲等提案第67條除第一項條文中消費者物價指數累計成長率修正為百分之二及每四年修正為每三年外其餘同性情條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":2218.872,"end":2240.777,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分修正動議兩件修正動議一第三十七條對照先行條文除第三項末增訂中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所得替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正後之附表三認定外逾未修正第三十八條"},{"start":2242.486,"end":2267.57,"text":"對照現行條文處第三項目增訂中華民國一百十四年以後各年度所的替代率不再逐年降低依中華民國某年某月某日修正之後修正後支付表認定外餘未修正第六十七條修正為教職員退休後所領月退休金或遺族領之月撫恤金或遺族"},{"start":2268.291,"end":2283.909,"text":"年金及付金額與中央主計機關發布之消費者物價指數累計成長率達50%及以該成長率調整之付表三修正部分請參閱書面資料提案委員黃國昌、張祺凱等人宣認動議二"},{"start":2291.155,"end":2307.109,"text":"第38條對照現行條文第38條除增訂第6項為本條附表3有關中華民國113年1月1日之後逐年下降所得替代率制部分補試用資提案委員翁曉琳等人宣讀完畢好謝謝那麼現在再補充介紹到場委員有張雅琳委員還有鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":2317.321,"end":2343.607,"text":"那麼我們接下來就進行大體討論因為今天是司法與教育文化委員會的共同聯席會議所以可能發言的委員人數比較多所以今天我們需要發言的委員待會請到主席台前先登記發言那麼發言時間原則上是以三分鐘為限那麼如果說有要發言的委員的話可以到前面來登記"},{"start":2344.679,"end":2362.672,"text":"那麼至於就是截止發言登記的時間我們現在定在上午10點鐘那麼截止大體討論的登記發言好那我們就現在進行大體討論來 麻煩如果說要登記大體討論的委員請先登記 謝謝嗯 是"},{"start":2379.115,"end":2381.823,"text":"你們先你們說真的假的"},{"start":2419.188,"end":2442.948,"text":"好 來 我們現在就先開始進行大體討論了那麼首先先請張雅玲委員發言時間三分鐘 謝謝在位上嗎在座位上也是可以的座位上也可以"},{"start":2455.256,"end":2478.533,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天我們在討論這個年改的時候我想今天真的是國民黨刻意造成我們的世代對立因為其實大家都非常清楚年改對於我們的年輕人特別是現在針對於如果我們要停止這個停止這個年改的這台車的話61歲以下的人也就是代表說很多我們現在還在現場工作的人"},{"start":2479.894,"end":2485.421,"text":"年輕的公務人員 公教人員都會受到影響特別是我也要再提到幾個重點"},{"start":2486.857,"end":2495.482,"text":"第一個 我們今天如果要停止之後這些錢我們還是要補這些撥補的錢從哪裡來其實就是我們這些所有人的納稅錢我們現在給勞保我們現在才撥補5,170億可是總體的人數勞工人數是1,048萬"},{"start":2510.872,"end":2529.406,"text":"我們撥補給公保的已經是5800億人數只有58萬其實差了20倍其實我們過去對於公保公教人員的照顧一直是相當足夠的特別是我們可以反映可以看到我們現在114年的退休所的平均來說公務人員大概是5萬零"},{"start":2532.508,"end":2538.593,"text":"656元退休教師大概是57,973元退休的警察大概是53,291元"},{"start":2546.007,"end":2572.224,"text":"那可是如果我們對照現在的剛出街的這個剛高考三級出任的薪水其實才五萬五千元勒勞工現在的平均薪資才四萬六千四百五十元所以相對來說其實現在公務人員的退休所得其實比我們一般年輕人剛出社會甚至比我們平均的勞工的薪資都要來得好那我實在是不了解說為什麼現在國民黨為了買票"},{"start":2575.748,"end":2581.638,"text":"卻要讓整個全體的勞工 全體的年輕人一起來背負 一起來承擔"},{"start":2584.07,"end":2610.525,"text":"我也想要再提到一個大家一直不停的在講這個所得替代率這件事情可是事實上我們現在如果來看到我們的這個實質的薪資的話公交人員的稅收薪是指他的退休時的本分的兩倍乘以年資乘以2%所以就是說他現在退休人的本分的兩倍就等於是現在現值月薪平均要高了1.19倍"},{"start":2613.146,"end":2636.778,"text":"如果是在年改前退休的有35年值即便是到118年月退所得率都還有60%這其實都已經比我們的OECD國家要來得高了那實際上呢它實際上的月退休金也都等於大概是現在現職工作者的71%如果提早到110年停止調降的話替代率增至66後其實實際上也還是有78%"},{"start":2640.86,"end":2661.788,"text":"所以其实是非常非常高的所以我是希望说我们今天呢为了所有人好因为大家都生活在这片土地上我们希望大家要好好的去思考要持续我们现在的年改我们才能够去确保我们现在的劳工不是会被剥两层皮"},{"start":2662.528,"end":2682.473,"text":"被雙層的剝削我們也才能夠去確保所有現在工作的人未來都還能夠被國家好好的照顧所以我希望今天在場的所有的委員都可以一起來支持年改的這件事情不要去刻意操作世代對立不要去創造世代不公平"},{"start":2682.793,"end":2708.205,"text":"不要持續的去剝削我們的年輕人不然再這樣下去真的是大家都沒有錢領大家的退休生活都會一頭空而且甚至是未來我們的孩子現在已經是少子化了我們的孩子未來還要繳更多的稅金我們的孩子竟然還要去幫我們補這個洞我覺得這個真的是非常非常的說不過去的一件事情"},{"start":2709.185,"end":2726.867,"text":"所以年金改革它其實是一個直學是要提供給大家一個更公平的照顧所以希望大家一起來支持年金改革同時我也想再強調最後一件事情今天所有30歲到40歲的年輕的家長"},{"start":2728.547,"end":2754.474,"text":"每天在職場打拼養家繳稅最怕的就是我們自己繳的錢沒有辦法照顧到我們自己也沒有辦法照顧我們的孩子所以堅持改革不是為了誰多誰少而是為了讓制度不會垮所以希望支持年輕改革讓年輕的家長可以好好的安心工作讓未來有個著落所以請大家一起來支持年輕改革 謝謝"},{"start":2756.69,"end":2759.889,"text":"好 謝謝張委員的發言 那接下來我們請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":2762.438,"end":2787.548,"text":"好謝謝 與其是發言的是希望待會馬上能得到行政機關的說明首先我還是要重申這兩天我們在省公教退府在會晤當中不斷有人提出跟勞保基金的缺口來對比那其實上保險應該是對保險勞保應該是對公教保那麼勞退對公教退府"},{"start":2788.069,"end":2814.788,"text":"那為什麼今天每次提到公教退府我們就會把勞保拿來談呢是因為公教很早時期除了公保之外就退府制度有新制跟舊制那勞退雖然也有新制跟舊制但是勞退本身由於它發展的較晚因此它目前並沒有財務上的問題可是勞保基金由於勞動人口越來越少也就是說從勞動"},{"start":2817.029,"end":2844.758,"text":"交保费退下来领给付的人越来越多而加入职场的新生劳工交保费的是相对少但因此在这样的讨论当中社会有些疑惑常常听到这样的声音公教人员说我们当时在职的时候缴的保费跟退福是很多的远比其他的职种来得高所以我们退下来之后我们领的多也是理所当然所以提到"},{"start":2846.098,"end":2873.375,"text":"教師 教育人員退休之後每個月可以領到大概5萬8 5萬7那麼公務人員也5萬勞工大概到2萬5就天花板那有人認為這個差異是來自於在職期間繳費的差異其實待會就要請我們相關部門來說明一下有沒有一個統計目前在領公退教退公教退輔的人"},{"start":2874.298,"end":2878.944,"text":"他現在領的跟他的職業生涯全個職業生涯所繳的"},{"start":2881.107,"end":2909.106,"text":"到底有一個比例沒有那我們可以再請勞動部去整事一下到底一個勞工就其職業生涯繳的保費跟他接下來在勞保退休給付老年給付這個部分他可以領到多少我想這樣的對比才能讓人家理解並不是因為公教在職人員在職時間繳的多所以他後來領的多他的比例是相稱的嗎"},{"start":2910.367,"end":2936.888,"text":"反而勞工他在在職期間繳的保費跟他退休之後領的給付這樣的一個比例跟公教退府來相較是否公教退府是民服其實的有多繳才多領呢這一點我覺得有必要讓社會大眾來做個理解還是要強調今天我們不斷的在彰顯公教退府制度"},{"start":2937.388,"end":2960.837,"text":"由於過去制度的轉移政府已經在相關的條文當中承接了有一定撥款補助的責任也履行了這樣的義務但是我們不能不斷的提高或者說現在講的是停砍年金聽起來好像很冤枉事實上是過去的所得替代率太高在年金改革的時候我們要逐步的調降"},{"start":2961.657,"end":2988.474,"text":"在調降到合乎國際一般的水準之後我想這樣的水準能足以支撐公教退休人員有尊嚴的老年生活但是也不至於說造成跟台灣現在其他職種的退休人員他們的領取的老年或退休給付的差距不會那麼的龐大我想大家都希望說台灣不分職業大家在職時有繳退下來有領那麼"},{"start":2990.755,"end":3020.275,"text":"領多領少其實呢要能夠考慮到退府基金或者是相關的這個保險他的幾戶的水庫呢他能夠永續經營但是不要把自己多領的要變成由全體納稅人來買單待會呢可以請行政部門呢就這一點呢如果有辦法的話因為這個勞保基金的相關資料或許這個考試院這邊也有做一些調查統計是不是能夠提供一下讓大家有個概念式的了解以上"},{"start":3022.677,"end":3026.639,"text":"好謝謝鍾委員那麼我們接下來請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":3036.776,"end":3053.208,"text":"对不起谢谢主席还有我们今天现场的各位委员还有各位代表我想今天其实是延续昨天有关于就是我们公教人员的一个所得替代力停砍的问题"},{"start":3055.389,"end":3075.817,"text":"我必須說我們現在我們的國家正在崩壞中為什麼呢因為維繫整個國家運作的最重要的中間的力量現在幾乎全面的出現了缺工缺人才的情形之前我們討論的很多是護理人員"},{"start":3079.378,"end":3094.964,"text":"然後我們的其實軍警校也是一樣在招募非常困難而最近討論最多的就是全國教師甚至代理教師也都非常非常的困難"},{"start":3096.084,"end":3101.007,"text":"那這個全國的教師荒實在太過嚴重有些學校在這個學期已經開學了兩個月還找不到老師那麼我知道很多的委員也都非常關心比如說民進黨的委員范雲范委員她就曾經跟我們的像全國教師工會啦全國教產工會或者是家長會也一起來召開了座談"},{"start":3124.921,"end":3130.885,"text":"那我引用全國教育產業工會理事長林碩傑理事長的說法那當然為什麼這麼缺教師他的原因非常非常的多而林理事長提到了其中就是錯誤的年改政策造成在教育的第一線的人員的流失也就是我們過去所講的教師尊師重道"},{"start":3153.061,"end":3155.584,"text":"隨著年改一次又一次的被民進黨 被執政黨政府或者民意代表一次又一次的污名化剛才民進黨委員說我們不要挑起世代對立 族群對立我們昨天就這樣說"},{"start":3172.481,"end":3192.634,"text":"但是可以看到這幾天的言論乃至於在網路上帶風向不就是一再的去挑起世代對立跟族群的對立對於我們全部不管是退休的教師他曾經為我們的教育奉獻過或者是在第一線的教育人員 教師們何其殘忍"},{"start":3196.576,"end":3199.798,"text":"第二點我要再一次的補充也就是說我們這次停侃年金它不是恢復也就是它的所得替代率原來是要到118年停止"},{"start":3211.627,"end":3226.333,"text":"那以現在在我們立法院裡面的版本有提到113年開始停止或114年停止所以它不是一個它不是一個說在"},{"start":3227.173,"end":3230.996,"text":"完全過去就是要接下來要把它完全的恢復這一點一定要讓社會大眾而且我們也一定要幫全國的這些公教人員來說明的"},{"start":3242.646,"end":3247.11,"text":"那另外大家很關心那他對於政府的財政的影響到底是什麼呢因為我昨天也講他對於政府的財政的負擔會不會加重我必須很誠實的說他確實會增加政府財政負擔但是增加多少呢這就要講清楚說明白"},{"start":3265.828,"end":3270.689,"text":"我不希望說 我一再聽到的好像我們這一次停侃年金就要讓我們的政府整個垮台了財政垮台了 破產了整個的就是好像拖垮全民的財政 是這樣嗎昨天我也問我們的權序部那這個他昨天所提供的資料是包含教育人員 公教"},{"start":3292.375,"end":3295.497,"text":"那麼我們確實它會提前出現它要更增加撥補的情形而我們這次所提出來的停侃年金權序部所提出來的財政的精算昨天他也講了也就是政府要多撥補多少錢呢一共是多撥補4460億元"},{"start":3318.908,"end":3320.549,"text":"多撥補4460億元我覺得這一點要讓全民知道而這4460億元分幾年撥補呢分20年撥補分20年撥補下來平均一年"},{"start":3336.375,"end":3341.419,"text":"223億元所以我覺得當反對者或者是執政黨的委員把這個停侃年金縮成全面拖垮財政的時候我覺得你們也可以看一看20年撥補4460億元你們覺得這是財政政府財政要垮台了那請問一下"},{"start":3362.173,"end":3381.451,"text":"短短的五年之間台電的虧損高達4500億元跟這個的窟窿是一樣的短短的五六年之間台電製造了4500億元而且還在繼續的增加中所以我覺得今天我們討論財政問題就事論事"},{"start":3385.154,"end":3406.909,"text":"就是什麼樣的事實我們面對但是不要言過其實而且也不要用這種言過其實的言論去加諸在某一個族群或某一個世代這是不可承受之重所以在這邊今天我們是延續昨天的討論我想其實條文都非常相似那我們經過一個這個大家討論之後昨天"},{"start":3415.194,"end":3437.206,"text":"民進黨的委員也同意在整個的條文主條保留送出委員會那我希望今天這個態度應該是一致的以上 謝謝好 謝謝王委員那麼待會因為我們今天發言人還是比較多還是請大家能夠盡量的控制時間好 那接下來請葉元之委員發言"},{"start":3441.404,"end":3457.146,"text":"我覺得我們的政府應該是對所有老師都好一點讓老師有尊嚴不管是對退職老師或是限職老師都是那今天我們討論的是要這個法案其實並沒有要恢復到之前年金改革之前的水準"},{"start":3457.907,"end":3476.808,"text":"那過去民進黨講說老師的退休的所得替代率領太多了超過他原來的本縫但現在扣了那麼多年之後呢現在其實最高就是七成我想這個七成這個數字是大家都可以接受最高七成我覺得大家可以接受那實際上這個七成呢對現職老師一樣也適用"},{"start":3479.791,"end":3501.662,"text":"換句話說現在的老師他在退休以後也是適用我們修的法律所以我是不太知道為什麼民進黨每一次都要去講說好像去修了這個退府條例就會對現職老師產生相對剝奪感實際上我問過很多現職老師他們都是支持這個修法就是支持所得地貸率的停扣"},{"start":3502.455,"end":3524.551,"text":"那更何況現在整個民進黨政府對於老師是非常這個整個環境是非常的不友善不只是在現在老師像當導師費或者是行政費或者是各方面薪資終點費要加都是加的非常的少那也引起老師感覺到極度的不尊重而且整個教師環境都不是太好"},{"start":3525.356,"end":3541.537,"text":"所以這一個條例我覺得通過之後實際上一方面是對老師尊重二方面我就不要再汙名化老師了好像民進黨老師喜歡拿說老師們你們退休領那麼多五萬多你還不夠嗎勞工才領兩萬多好像老師很貪婪沒有"},{"start":3542.398,"end":3559.837,"text":"基本上為什麼他們領的比較多一來是因為過去政府信賴保護原則跟他講說你一開始進來之後薪水少一點但是之後的保障比較多他這個叫做地延年金他是本來就政府答應給他的不是說他貪婪第二"},{"start":3560.987,"end":3587.499,"text":"那是因為他在職的時候繳的就是比較多嘛你以那個那個薪點最高的那一級來講的話他一個月要繳七千多塊那你說勞保大概一個月最高是兩千多塊所以你說為什麼你五萬多勞保只有兩萬多他在在職的時候繳錢不一樣然後還有我昨天看到民進黨還把國民年金拿來講說國民年金才四千塊國民年金那叫非勞動年金"},{"start":3588.539,"end":3605.086,"text":"公教年金叫勞動年金居然這兩個也可以拿來比其實這就是想要去製造一個那種對立嘛好像職業對立但說實在像勞保勞保現在如果政府不撥補的話2031年的破產那現在政府的講法是如果我們停扣"},{"start":3605.726,"end":3620.554,"text":"停扣退休老師所得替代率的話要到2042年破產但勞保其實2031年就要破產那之後怎麼辦呢政府也是持續撥補那請問一下政府去撥補勞保公教會不會不爽不會啊公教人員會認為說"},{"start":3621.835,"end":3639.24,"text":"因為如果在國家財政允許情況之下勞工的權益得以保障公教也樂觀其成那為什麼現在公教他2012年要破產我們希望政府用撥補的方式更何況他們的僱主還是政府我們希望用撥補方式的時候民進黨說勞工會不爽勞工真的會不爽嗎"},{"start":3640.04,"end":3657.412,"text":"有必要製造退職老師跟現職老師對立或勞工跟老師的對立嗎我覺得這都是不必要的啦所以希望大家回歸就事論事這件事情該怎麼就怎麼做停扣所得替代率讓他停在最高七成我覺得是非常合理的好 謝謝葉委員那接下來請吳世耀委員發言"},{"start":3665.663,"end":3688.857,"text":"好謝謝主席今天我們延續昨天的討論但今天是聚焦教育人員所以有教育文化委員會的委員一起來參與討論那我過去也是長期教育文化委員會的成員像智恩我們都是長期的夥伴也非常希望說司法法制委員會這一次定下的一人三分鐘的這種惡習不要傳染到其他委員會我們真的是充分討論"},{"start":3690.103,"end":3708.005,"text":"那我要说昨天一整天的讨论我们其实可以浓缩出来在野党的委员提案其实反映出几个思维上的很大的差异作为负责任的执政者我们需要打造的退休制度是退休金人人都领得到"},{"start":3708.906,"end":3737.725,"text":"退休金能夠照顧更多人年金的這個破基金能夠維持的更久這就是三大目標退休金人人領得到退休金可以照顧更多人不限行業都盡可能橫平以及我們的基金不要再有缺口能夠維持的更久我想這是負責任的政府不論誰執政都要去承擔的責任跟義務"},{"start":3738.986,"end":3760.761,"text":"但昨天討論下來發現大家在思考上很大的奇異就是退休金的制度到底是for what退休金的設置的制度是要維持基本生活所需所以當時在年改的時候我們拉出了一個最低保障金額38130這是衡酌於現在主計總處的生活"},{"start":3766.025,"end":3790.206,"text":"需求的經費還有各縣市的生活維持的各項指標算出來我們拉出了一個合宜的最低保障金額38130我們認為這是足以來承擔負荷基本生活所需所以退休金的制度不是要讓大家去像昨天委員說是要繳房貸我想這個是社會是難以接受的"},{"start":3790.727,"end":3797.544,"text":"這是第一個大的歧義維持基本生活應當才是退休金制度的一個設置的緣由"},{"start":3798.544,"end":3826.879,"text":"第二个绝对不要拿牺牲限职老师们的权益来换得我们退休年金停侃的这个目标也就是不要重退职轻限职我非常同意老师非常的辛苦这几年来我们在制度上想方设法增加对于限职老师不管是国教乃至于高教还有我们特别关心的特教"},{"start":3827.459,"end":3840.06,"text":"還有代理教師我稍後有時間針對這些我們這幾年精進的作為我希望有時間可以來分享但是絕對不是用昨天委員一直在說公務人員已經不是鐵飯碗了"},{"start":3841.772,"end":3857.278,"text":"那也是來自於我們現在新興時代的改變過去沒有YouTuber過去沒有Freelancer過去大家認為能夠享有一個公務人員的工作保障它確實是那個時代大家的很大的期盼"},{"start":3858.078,"end":3884.39,"text":"但是現在我們如果要補充人力除了我剛說的提升對於限職老師的各項照顧我希望稍後有機會可以論述之外我們切莫不要讓鐵飯碗成為破飯碗也就是未來退休金如果領不到了那就是重退職輕限職剛剛原汁委員說到說這個所得替代率平均七成"},{"start":3885.291,"end":3896.065,"text":"對於現職的人員以後也適用沒有錯但差別在哪裡年金破產了以後他們未來退休的時候領不到這是最大的差別"},{"start":3897.105,"end":3915.506,"text":"最後一點,我再用短短的30秒,黃宏威委員昨天一個很大的謬誤,大家很難以接受,就是國家都能扛,國家財政好,國家扛得起,4460億只是提早4年破產,又不是提早40年。"},{"start":3917.3,"end":3933.97,"text":"財政紀律是什麼請各位委員要謹記在心預算的撥用絕對不是挖東牆補西牆絕對不是拿國房可以來補退休金也不是拿台電的預算來補退休金任何預算的編列有它的項目"},{"start":3934.93,"end":3951.547,"text":"所以不是可以这么简单的说国家有钱4000多亿算什么这就是完全没有财政纪律的概念我们希望透过缓降所得替代率延缓基金的破口延缓基金的破产"},{"start":3952.588,"end":3972.657,"text":"這才能達到我剛說的不論誰執政退休金人人領得到不論誰執政我們要擴大照顧更多行業盡可能橫貧的退休生活不論誰執政我們要讓年金的基金能夠永續好 第一輪的發言到此 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員那我現在再補充介紹到場的委員有莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":3979.144,"end":4001.619,"text":"王逸傳委員還有沈發慧委員剛剛那個柯建銘柯總召委員他有到場驚鴻一瞥然後他又離開了這個我本來還想親自跟他問候好然後另外還有我們國民黨的柯貞恩委員外美林委員還有謝龍介委員然後以及張琦凱委員好謝謝那接下來我們就請陳培宇委員發言"},{"start":4003.015,"end":4020.11,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要再次強調其實上一次在翁曉琳委員開的公聽會裡面現場就有代理教師他的發言講得非常的清楚現場其實不是教師荒我再次強調現場不是教師荒而是代理教師荒"},{"start":4021.191,"end":4044.109,"text":"請各位委員要發言的時候請把正式教師跟代理教師搞清楚我手上的數字非常的負責任是當大家在談教師荒的時候我們非常負責任的跟國教署調了相關的數字我要拜託各位委員一直在講教師荒的時候記得以下的數字以113年國小正式教師的開缺"},{"start":4045.65,"end":4059.822,"text":"新北市大家覺得新北跟台北好像生活成本比較高比較沒有人要來考嗎錯新北市113年國小的報考人數是5364人而當時新北市只有開缺751人最後錄取647人而台北市的國小都報名有3603人只錄取461人最後正式錄取278人"},{"start":4072.953,"end":4097.125,"text":"請問這個考試的比例請委員們拿起計算機按一按就非常清楚這是國小的部分請問這叫教師荒嗎這麼多人要考報考率這麼高但是錄取率這麼低所以我再次強調沒有正式教師荒只有代理教師的問題再來國中的部分一樣我用新北跟台北做比較新北的部分光是113年度的新北國中報考人數是2839"},{"start":4099.766,"end":4106.551,"text":"當時正式開缺就只有錄取189到了台北市更多人要報名3392最後錄取131這是國中的部分到了高中113年新北市報名人數4356錄取106"},{"start":4116.857,"end":4135.179,"text":"台北市更誇張10398人報名最後錄取156你告訴我這有什麼教師荒現場的困境是代理教師的困境而代理教師他們領的是勞保甚至還不是我們今天討論的這些事情而更荒謬的是這些辛苦的代理教師"},{"start":4136.26,"end":4159.774,"text":"他們現在領的勞保跟之後的勞退還要繼續納稅Support今天在野黨委員想要調整的五萬多塊你們剛說領七千多繳七千多領五萬多這一群老師請問這樣真的公平嗎對於現場老師真的公平嗎剛業員之委員或者是一開始在提案討論說明的時候一下講完就跑掉的"},{"start":4160.334,"end":4188.513,"text":"委員們都一直說教師荒教師荒請感到是代理教師的困境而不是正式的教師荒所以教師荒不荒你們自己心裡非常清楚而現場的老師跟相關的報考人數入取人數跟這個年金改革之間的關係我想大家看得很清楚一點關係都沒有請不要再把相關議題綁在一起講另外我要拜託主席我們真的希望等一下還有第二輪大體討論的時間我們不希望被終止發言終止討論謝謝"},{"start":4194.7,"end":4199.626,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝主席還有在場的委員"},{"start":4201.089,"end":4221.027,"text":"今天討論這個議題其實誰都不想當壞人但問題是我們還是話還是要講清楚到底你年金改革你最主要的一個目的是要幹什麼因為大家都很清楚不管是誰在執政的時候大家面臨到整個年金的制度到底最後會不會破產"},{"start":4222.188,"end":4249.506,"text":"每一個政黨在執政的時候他都擔心但是剛我們在立法院裡面討論問題還是要針對核心話還是不能亂講我很少去點名說誰講的話怎麼樣但是有一些太過荒謬還是要去指出來了你像譬如說剛岳炎之委員提到說那個退伏的給予是那個遞延工資這個就實在是違背了一個立法委員的一個基本的一個素養"},{"start":4252.168,"end":4272.316,"text":"的解釋其實都可以拿出來好好的看一看你既然要引用信賴保護原則的話你就把全文把它看完在道好官四字七百八十三號裡面講得非常清楚退伍給予並不是遞延工資的一個給付然後我們看到這一次全序部也提出了這三篇的一個報告"},{"start":4273.456,"end":4288.931,"text":"昨天我也呼籲大家再好好再去看一下2018年在年金改革的時候我們大家都希望說建立一個永續跟公平合理的一個退休的一個制度目的其實只有一個確保年金不會那麼快就去破產掉"},{"start":4289.531,"end":4316.791,"text":"那大家現在討論的好像意思就是說反正都是會破產現在多給一點又怎麼樣似乎是抱著這樣的一個心態那以這一次停止調降所的替代率跟調整CPI的一個幅度來看的話你說這個制度要讓它長久的一個活下去但是災黨朋友提出這樣的一些主張你說逐年去調降還有將CPI的調整的幅度增幅5%改為增幅3%"},{"start":4319.307,"end":4343.484,"text":"當然看起來對這些已經退休的人來看的話他會認為說這是一種照顧但實際上如果提早來破產讓制度去倒退的話那我相信這個是大家都不樂於見到的一件事情因為看起來就把它給增加上去可是問題是導致的結果是什麼是加速這個一個破產改革如果說你要再去開倒車的話我看連下一代連車你都沒得做了"},{"start":4349.188,"end":4369.014,"text":"退休的族群要不要去照顧每一個族群都應該去照顧但是用掏空未來的方式去照顧的話這個關心到老的可是害到明天的年輕的那似乎讓他陷入領不到這樣的一個風險這個大家還是好好去考慮了國家的錢就是大家的錢"},{"start":4370.083,"end":4389.113,"text":"你說基金裡面每一個基金是不一樣大家好像是拿出來說拿年輕人 拿勞工 拿農民來做比較會產生對立不是這樣講你任何一個基金裡面是一個專屬的一個水庫專屬的一個水庫別人領得多如果你領自己的領得多"},{"start":4389.753,"end":4410.096,"text":"那不是領到我家的那有什麼關係你就盡量去領啊可是當你領到你自己的去增加那另外別人的錢還要拿進來貼的時候這個可能大家就變成必須要去考慮了那你2018改革到現在你政府挹注的是1321億那持續去履行這個最後支付的保障的一個責任"},{"start":4411.457,"end":4435.786,"text":"政府當然你必須要有他的一個責任但是讓基金變成一個無底洞來看的話你把它想想看提早領走了以後你基金哪怕你現在投資的效率多高那個投資的本金下降收益變少你財務只是會變得更惡化更快換句話來講你說少數的好一點的話"},{"start":4440.868,"end":4450.35,"text":"少數的好一點的話那你對於其他多數的人還有後面的人來講的話那個其實這個後果產生的衝擊大家要好好考慮啦 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員你可以繼續講嗎不行不行我剛剛在喝一口水不好意思好 謝謝莊委員那接下來我們請王逸川委員發言"},{"start":4466.598,"end":4494.599,"text":"好 謝謝主席這兩天我們討論的都是提案的委員都是特別點名特定的職業別跟特定的世代特定的職業別跟特定的世代然後提了這個職業別跟世代之後說因為要追求職業別的公平要追求世代的公平"},{"start":4499.011,"end":4524.99,"text":"怎麼會去提一個為了特定的職業別裡頭的特定的世代大家如果要討論這個老師那他要討論的是現有老師的待遇要不要一起調啊怎麼會去只來討論退休的老師要調這不就特定的世代在處理嗎送阿伯就是特定的選票啊"},{"start":4526.513,"end":4548.661,"text":"特定的選票啊這樣說到人意道德說現在的老師怎樣怎樣要做老師怎樣你就怕現在的老師的薪水啊現在的老師的薪水比較高的啊怎麼去討論說退休的老師的薪水比較高的這都是很奇怪的邏輯第二個 特定的職業"},{"start":4550.306,"end":4558.088,"text":"這一個退休的這個水庫 裡面的錢錢沒夠 要求全民就會來賭 這樣也不會通啊 這樣也不會通啊啊 勞工的什麼要補 農民的什麼要補你說 啊我如果再說 勞工再農民去 他還在挑起職業別啊挑起職業別就是你們提案的人啊"},{"start":4573.766,"end":4598.227,"text":"你們提倡的人要挑起職業別啊要挑起世代啊挑起限職的人員跟退休人員大家戴著水口裡面說今天你把水澆到多了泵到多水了我們以後在水口裡面沒水啊啊沒水沒水你們限職的再給我滾水下去啊啊如果還沒有啊不然在別人的水口淹水進來啊叫專民的水淹進來某一些職業別的水庫裡頭啊這樣大家都聽到啊"},{"start":4600.828,"end":4609.091,"text":"問題你們提這個就是為了選舉嘛為了你們的族群嘛提這個講到整項人力道德笑死人好 接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言剛剛吳司堯委員在提醒說啊老師的這個退府基金啊很快就會破產但是媽 老師是幾年"},{"start":4629.131,"end":4656.66,"text":"2042年勞工呢勞工是2031年我要請大家特別注意我們今天的討論是世代要共榮職業是要平等的當你在欺負或者霸凌公教人員的時候事實上你還要欺負他們的家庭跟他們一輩子的這個奉獻就剛剛我講的當你提出一個數據嚴重的扭曲明明勞工"},{"start":4658.5,"end":4671.864,"text":"是會提早在2031年破產的那你現在去強調哇 馬上公教你不處理就會破產我跟他講都不會破產不只公教不會破產勞工更不會破產今天教育部的部長在現場我要明確的期待勞動部長坐在你這位置的時候他怎麼講"},{"start":4685.976,"end":4708.401,"text":"雖然2031年就會破產了 可是他講第一個不會破產第二個他明確去爭取該有的撥補最近這三年 去年勞工撥補1300億 今年撥補1300億送到地盤的預算書明年又是1300億我請問 請問下一步部長你去年撥補了給教育人員多少錢50今年多少74"},{"start":4718.404,"end":4739.878,"text":"不要講那個粗話什麼逼給退為什麼人家勞動部說不會破產這不是狠狠打了吳思堯的一巴掌嗎哪有會破產而且該撥補的就撥補啊我請教育部要貫徹這個而且更重要的我們這個法治的社會從公務人員退休"},{"start":4741.124,"end":4765.661,"text":"之前府系條例第93條還有公務人員退休府系基金管理條例第8條第8條怎麼定這個基金如果不足額支付的時候要做什麼事情基金檢討以後第一個調整繳費的這個費率第二個更明確講由政府提款撥補公務人員府系基金條例實行細則第20條也是這樣定的"},{"start":4768.536,"end":4788.529,"text":"政府變成什麼 不負責任的渣男是不是違法不撥補明明公務人員 公交人員負了35% 政府要負責65%的你不負責 這不是違法是渣男嗎我剛才講了 勞動部都依法做了喂 憑什麼 教育部不做所以今天"},{"start":4789.52,"end":4808.792,"text":"我們希望不是像吳思瑤講的什麼重公教輕勞工我不要講說什麼現在是重勞工輕公教啦你們不要顛倒是非的同時我們同時對勞工都是該撥補就要撥補對公教也要撥補就撥補只要撥補做到了勞工不會破產公教也不會破產 謝謝好 謝謝曾委員那接下來我們請吳佩奕委員發言吳佩奕委員"},{"start":4818.656,"end":4824.419,"text":"吳佩奕委員吳佩奕委員不在那我們接下來請羅志強委員發言吳思堯拿了一把刀對著老師砍砍老師20%的肉然後跟你講說我是愛你才砍你你不要誤會因為如果不砍你你有一天會死掉的我非砍你不可我為什麼說吳思堯冷血"},{"start":4849.451,"end":4875.697,"text":"拿刀砍公務員砍老師是人血拿刀砍公務員砍老師還說我是愛你的那是人血中的人血我先來猜一猜他的謊言他可能是跟你講說我如果不砍你抱歉啊2042年會破產啊你會拿不到錢啊奇怪了勞保2030年就會破產啊為什麼你就不擔心拿不到錢呢"},{"start":4877.264,"end":4902.194,"text":"因為公教人員政府是雇主依法負最終支付責任是不會破產的所以這是第一件事情就是吳士堯在騙你啊就是騙你嘛第二個我要跟大家講他就跟講說20年如果說今天停侃20年要撥補4400億我承認有財政負擔當然有啊一年200億啦"},{"start":4903.919,"end":4932.513,"text":"到現在為止光我們一般預算已經連續3年勞保是撥補1300億特別預算加進去已經撥補5000多億我再來跟大家講一個鐵證的事實民進黨努力來砍老色肉去補誰啊補綠油油嘛我講台電光講台電抱歉我在馬政府工作過馬政府執政時候留了828億的電價穩定基金給民進黨政府到現在9年之後"},{"start":4933.593,"end":4939.237,"text":"台電虧損4500億 這828億花光光 賠了4500億然後還撥補了3000億 加起來快要9000億你民進黨也沒手軟啊我們贊成勞保撥補 所以勞保撥補沒問題但是你今天民進黨 你在養綠油油的時候你沒有手軟啊你跟我講說今年一年200億 你覺得"},{"start":4959.972,"end":4985.129,"text":"我們的老師不值得 我們的公務員不值得你不配 今天國家撥補一年兩百億給你然後你告訴我說 今天台電沒關係 虧一兆都當然虧 只要綠油有賺飽飽 賺滿滿肥水流滿地 我們民進黨大發財就可以我還是要回頭說一句話今天我們這個所謂的年金的所得替代率"},{"start":4986.345,"end":4998.212,"text":"公教人員他不是沒有為我們的財政負擔付出了他已經砍到七成以下了今天只不過卑微的告訴你說夠了吧"},{"start":5007.697,"end":5036.194,"text":"停了吧血肉吸乾了你可不可以留我一個骨頭可以了吧可是今天我看到民進黨我也不知道民進黨政府到底是跟老師有什麼血海深仇跟公務員有什麼血海深仇跟軍人錦霄有什麼血海深仇只要碰到今天照顧我們今天國家資助的軍公教就開始拿出大刀愛砍就砍最後還是說一句話啦"},{"start":5037.301,"end":5064.31,"text":"今天我就講一個具體數字馬政府的時候國考人數最高是50萬人去年掉到16萬今年掉到12萬如果今天公務員也好國考也好教室也好跟過去一樣的人山人海大家都搶著去報考那你跟我講說這個待遇真的說要停砍我覺得也不合理是嗎"},{"start":5065.734,"end":5089.725,"text":"你民進黨現在掏空人才的灰犀牛 直衝台灣而來就是因為你們今天磕帶 磕扣 今天去踐踏軍公教我們國家過去這麼多的建設跟繁榮 就是軍公教挺出來的而今天你在掏空國家 掏空文官 掏空我們未來的未來這就是民進黨今天讓我覺得最冷血的地方"},{"start":5093.82,"end":5114.256,"text":"好 謝謝盧委員那接下來我們請林倩琦委員發言好 主席謝謝 還有府院同仁 大家好本期在這邊今天重申我們在修正公立學校教職員退休之前撫恤條例沒有要推翻改革而是要讓改革回歸平衡那麼"},{"start":5116.96,"end":5146.042,"text":"我们根据具体的数据来指出来教师如果以650的级距来计算教师每个月实职需要自缴退府5857元但是劳保的缴费最高级距就是自缴金额每个月1145元单单自缴的金额教师的退府缴费也是劳保的5.1倍我们不做比较重点是这些教师"},{"start":5147.043,"end":5161.322,"text":"跟勞工都是依法繳納依法退休如今卻因為制度跟執行的錯誤要承擔國家的責任這才是對每一位國民真正的不公"},{"start":5162.677,"end":5191.006,"text":"我這邊要把這兩天大家所講的東西做一個整理我先談一下我們其實在討論的是針對這一件事情這個法條我們要怎麼去處理跟解決當然大家會拿不同的事情來比較但是呢就針對公教人員退休輔學的這一件事情呢本席一直談到的一個很重要的重點是信賴保護原則教師在過去投入他的勞動時間"},{"start":5193.483,"end":5210.499,"text":"爭取正常的退休是因為信賴政府在執行上的效度也就是說過去老師被提撥的金額是政府提撥的但是政府如果效度不夠的話現在來要求教師們"},{"start":5212.202,"end":5234.092,"text":"去減低它的這個所得替代率這個不是破壞了過去的信賴保護原則嗎今天的法案其實在過去改革的時候就要考慮到是否溯及既往怎麼溯及或者是新的制度開始會產生什麼樣子的問題但是這些在過去或許"},{"start":5235.012,"end":5254.44,"text":"太粗魯的被決定於是產生了很大的衝擊所以我們今天訴求的只是停砍只是停砍那政府已經過去片面的改變信賴保護原則的契約今天我們要談的是如何來解決這個問題"},{"start":5256.573,"end":5279.176,"text":"所以所謂的世代不公或職別不公或者是把全民拉進來負擔這個是政府如何做的問題剛才我們談到台電的撥補政府你既然決定一個虧錢的國營企業可以撥補雖然行政單位也認為我們在退府基金的這樣一個水庫我們要自己來負責"},{"start":5280.077,"end":5309.128,"text":"但是過渡的時期其實政府有很多工具可以用並沒有要把全民納稅一起來做這件事情而是在過渡的時期你如何運用政府你有權力的工具來讓這個過渡或讓未來可能發生的事情在現在我們減少衝擊到最低減低對沒有權力的人民最大的一個負面衝擊我覺得這是政府應該要做的事情不要忘了"},{"start":5309.648,"end":5330.958,"text":"這件事情始作俑者沒有做好的是政府真正應該要檢討的是政府人民相信你給予你政策執行的權利但是最後當他們信任你要退休的時候你告訴他們我們過去錯了難道我們政府不用為過去的錯誤來負責嗎好 謝謝林委員接下來我們請柯志恩委員發言"},{"start":5338.837,"end":5365.293,"text":"好 謝謝主席我今天坐在這個地方我實在是有點很感慨因為在2018的時候我們在第九屆在教文的時候我們也曾經在這個地方每一次都討論到非常的晚那時候所製造的一些分隔我覺得各方面的言辭到現在其實沒有什麼改變所以我覺得即使再多的大體討論再多的言辭的辯論其實還是一樣大家還是各自有自己的一些的想法"},{"start":5366.113,"end":5376.896,"text":"所以我必須要說真的大家就對於停砍這件事情我必須要提醒那個時候在年資25年的公教人員他其實一刀砍下來已經砍了20%然後從80變成60然後年資35年大概從95變成75都是20直接一刀砍下來然後在每年是1.5%這樣不斷的急劇下降"},{"start":5393.26,"end":5408.293,"text":"所以说呢你即使到我们现在所提出来停砍到今年不要再砍下去我说实在已经比原本的也已经是26%这是一个非常大的一个数据所以说呢这个部分来说呢大家有各不同的"},{"start":5408.373,"end":5433.343,"text":"不同的说法我们唯一最大的共识就是希望退休金大家都可以领得到只是这个水库该怎么样的分配这个水库如何不要让它破产我觉得蓝绿这一点是完全无庸置疑的至于额外再加入了一些很多的选举性的语言好像只对特定团体我觉得那个都是大可不必我今天特别提出来一个要不要停凯大家都各自有说法"},{"start":5433.723,"end":5449.01,"text":"但是一個大家我覺得可以得到一個共識的我們起碼又有點進步吧67條大家看一下在勞保條例當中的第65條之四跟國民年金第54條之一都有同樣的規定就是呢退休金額隨著物價指數成長而調整"},{"start":5452.932,"end":5471.748,"text":"老保國民都有物價指數累積到5%上下的時候就應該調升合情合理但是呢我們公教來說的話我昨天看了全系不告訴我們的理由就說因為這幾年物價指數漲得比較多非特例而且呢法規上面有說4年就要給予檢討4年給予檢討他們認為這樣就夠了那我要請問4年給予檢討等於調漲嗎"},{"start":5478.013,"end":5483.938,"text":"四年給予檢討有調漲嗎你檢討完之後呢物價已經超過了百分之五了然後呢別人不需要直接就調漲公教人員要怎麼辦你還要經過什麼你還要經過行政院會同考試院考量國家經濟狀況政府財政勞保農保國民年金直接調不用大費作章的跨院來開討論會"},{"start":5502.955,"end":5510.878,"text":"所以說請問這叫公平嗎我們只缺一個非常卑微的公平啊為什麼其他都可以直接調為什麼到公教時候就要經過這麼多討論經過討論後還告訴我四年要檢討檢討又不代表調整那你這樣在幹嘛你為什麼要多一道的關卡"},{"start":5518.701,"end":5524.186,"text":"這就是一個最簡單的一個公平的原則先不要討論別的嘛先把67條先把它搞定嘛為什麼到了公教人員為什麼到了這些人他就要多一道程序那請告訴我的公平正義到底在哪裡如果要一致的話不能夠一致嗎而且這符合大法官解釋的精神啊退福給予的價值不隨時開經過而產生實質的減少這是政府的責任跟義務年改前也是如此的規定啊"},{"start":5545.743,"end":5563.233,"text":"但年稿之後就表明要調然後呢 告訴我們調多少 調幾趴還要過五關 斬六將還要看政府的臉色為什麼到了公教人員就不能比照農保為什麼不講國民年金不能不做吉教勞保那這才叫做不公平嘛所以呢 大家要討論比較複雜的問題不管是砍26 29 先來解決67條吧這應該可以得到最大的共識起碼我們要跨前一步吧 對不對這是一個最卑微的要求"},{"start":5574.305,"end":5577.366,"text":"謝謝柯委員那接下來我們請謝龍介委員發言感謝主席李鴻一半年 羅總統在擔任行政議長的時候他說希望公告人員 體諒政府財政的困難所以 大家抹曬感的 就給你抬下去"},{"start":5604.079,"end":5627.409,"text":"那麼就是標示說 經濟啊 台灣的經濟不可以倒那麼這軍公告 後來軍人沒台 公告就配合了殊不知呢 這八天來每一天 執政黨都說 因為我們的執政啊 經濟大幅度的成長"},{"start":5629.807,"end":5635.732,"text":"那一年 要開公告的退休金的時候我們的總務省是一條高清液今年我們的總務省變成三條什麼倒邊說呢?所以這八年來的公告領域也會改變每天都在看經濟的成長每天都讓民進黨說台灣的經濟每天都很進步所以他們想在八年前"},{"start":5658.391,"end":5668.493,"text":"是給你騙了,還是給你拐了因為這八年也是臨來的,也是覺得政府有需要我們配合沒關係但是你說的八年的執政是一片欠欠向盈啊那麼八十趴到現在,下來四十趴到二十五趴的不定了大家都抬差不多二十趴以上了"},{"start":5689.144,"end":5691.988,"text":"強20%這樣表示說這個資金,尤其這四、五年來,我們基金的收益不斷有在改善、提高,跟過去當期收益很差,是不一樣的。"},{"start":5706.741,"end":5709.602,"text":"所以今天你不是說要來修這個法占庭,是占庭又再給人傷害,不是給它恢復到離空一半年以前,讓你大家覺得說,哇,不會輸的,老師很好談。我要說,一分錢一分錢。當然他沒有欠你錢,你就不能欠他本頓啦。"},{"start":5729.898,"end":5736.74,"text":"為什麼告訴大家無奈要嫁孩子三個月就放假嫁孩子三個月有時候就再給孩子傷害老鼠看過去 當然這個台股是真的有關係的今天台股不錯 穩定 退休的生涯他可以直接保障我相信老鼠的付出是無緣無悔的"},{"start":5761.348,"end":5781.156,"text":"所以補典有時候 這個補要怎麼補啊 要有技術啊你今天假如說本來伯伯會幫你補我相信在野黨跟接近黨的立法委員比較少真的基金會有危機啦目前是還沒有啦 我相信沒有一個立委會跟你反對"},{"start":5783.497,"end":5792.221,"text":"因為這是已經不是飛到離空一半年了要很清楚的 跟台灣鄉親講一下包括這裡的勞工 包括所有的族群 大家都一樣就用好便宜好走 不能太過大家便宜善吃好 謝謝謝委員那接下來請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":5810.724,"end":5836.35,"text":"三位還有各位委員還有我們中央各機關的代表的所長我們今天談公立學校教職員退休輔系條例今天首先第一個就是不是要回復到107年以前這只是要停 該停的要停卡"},{"start":5837.83,"end":5860.623,"text":"大家一直在比较劳工跟公务人员的部分公务人员他每个月的薪资本俸要提拨到退府基金就是政府每个月所提拨的"},{"start":5861.932,"end":5882.954,"text":"是百分之十五公務人員百分之教師也是一樣是百分之十五而勞工勞工是百分之六而且不是強制的百分之六還不是強制可以不提撥所以這兩個就差很多"},{"start":5886.147,"end":5912.567,"text":"公務員每個月退休金5萬多平均事實上真的沒有那麼多你是用最高的最高最高的去計算的所以兩個基礎提撥的比例也不同提撥的金額也不同所以這個部分去做這樣兩個做比較事實上是一個很大的問題"},{"start":5914.466,"end":5938.849,"text":"另外就是說還是要回顧到這個歷史蔡英文總統擔任總統之後她請陳建仁副總統擔任年金改革委員會的召集人這國家年金改革委員會召開了20次的會議"},{"start":5940.376,"end":5965.945,"text":"邀請了中央各機關還有專家學者來討論所以考試院行政院就以公立學校來講就是行政院在106年3月30號根據年紀改革委員會的一個共識提出了這個草案這個草案"},{"start":5967.721,"end":5994.906,"text":"這個所得替代率的相關的這些資料他要以16年他用16年來去做逐年的調降16年但是自以為很了不起的也不是專業的我們當時的段育康委員他提出了版本"},{"start":5996.021,"end":6024.221,"text":"就以形这样的版本为基础再大砍比如说本来是要16年他把它砍成11年然后那个所得替代力也大砍我们就举例子就以这个114年今年来讲也就是第七年"},{"start":6025.495,"end":6051.329,"text":"行政院版的是71.5%段宜康委員的是在大崁是68.5%差了3%是這樣的一個因為民進黨絕對多數然後大崁不是用行政院的版本不是用專業人員的版本是用"},{"start":6052.85,"end":6061.744,"text":"委员民进党立委的版本大砍之后所表决通过的所以今天我们要谈的就是"},{"start":6063.447,"end":6088.962,"text":"要停侃了不是要回到過去是停侃所以在這邊特別來跟大家做這樣的一個說明讓大家整個了解當時的一個狀況而且勞工的提撥率跟而且60%也是後來才有的勞工的部分早期沒有而現在的勞工的6%也是自驗的"},{"start":6090.763,"end":6109.594,"text":"也可以不提拨所以这两个不能这样直接去比较而公务员的部分就是以现在的公务员每个月的本俸要提拨15%以上 谢谢好 谢谢郑委员接下来请郭玉琴委员发言"},{"start":6111.257,"end":6132.284,"text":"謝謝主席還有在座的所有的立法院同事們一直聽下來我覺得這個藍牌委員一直在混淆一件事情就是明明兩件是不同的事情第一個就是保險年金跟第二層的職業年金是完全不相關的事情但是他們都混為一談"},{"start":6133.064,"end":6149.586,"text":"那講到這個保險年金其實包含這個勞保跟公保這是政府本來就應該要負最終責任的一個制度所以政府會撥補這沒有任何問題但是職業年金是各行各業自己的退休制度這性質是完全不同但是我們一直聽到"},{"start":6150.527,"end":6164.978,"text":"他們把這樣子兩件事情混為一談真的拜託不要再把勞保拿來跟退伏基金來相比那我想這一次呢就是根據公務人員的退休之前的撫恤法不管是第37條第67條"},{"start":6167.42,"end":6171.244,"text":"這乍看之下好像只是文字上的一個問題技術上的一個調整但實質上卻可能會讓我們的年金改革倒退而且會重新打開特權的大門那我必須嚴正的指出我們歷經了這麼多年的這個艱辛的過程要年改其實為了就是要保障我們的制度的永續公平的負擔就是大家公平共擔讓整個社會信任政府的一個財政這個紀律"},{"start":6195.604,"end":6206.415,"text":"雖然剛剛也有委員特別提到這個全區部的報告很清楚就是我們的如果經過這樣子的一個更改那未來政府在20年要撥補4460億其實這4460億"},{"start":6212.881,"end":6223.93,"text":"撥補就是全民要買單我們的基金也會提前大概4年會用期我想平均每一個繳稅的國民我就用112年度的繳稅人口697萬人來算這4460億"},{"start":6230.635,"end":6246.448,"text":"平均每一個國民我們要多負擔6.3萬我想這個部分如果大家沒有把它講清楚如果再繼續加下去這不是要照顧這叫拖垮所以我們真的要問大家一句你願不願意讓你繳的稅去補別人的退休金"},{"start":6250.271,"end":6266.491,"text":"你願不願意讓你繳的稅去補別人的退休金我再重複一次所以這看起來雖然只是修大門 修文字但事實上其實就是打開整個回溯調整的大門尤其是在第67條"},{"start":6268.573,"end":6294.584,"text":"任何提前的停降回溯給付都會讓這個第67條原本的年金公平最重要的防線可能會一夕潰堤安全罰完全失靈所以我在講年金制度不是誰的特權這是整個國家的社會契約我們不能一次改革今天換一條明天換一批"},{"start":6295.504,"end":6319.254,"text":"所以政府沒了裁員全民要買單我就問勞保也有不補的壓力退府如果也放水兩邊都破產到底誰要來救全民來救我再講一次你願不願意讓你多繳的錢去補別人的退休金就問這一題就好以上"},{"start":6323.956,"end":6326.042,"text":"好 謝謝我們接下來請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝"},{"start":6331.414,"end":6357.823,"text":"年金改革大家可以討論但我相信全民的共識絕對是我們都不願意我們繳的納稅錢被惡意的光電蟑螂來去上下其手我想這應該是我們全民2350萬人的共識其實坐在這邊我們一直強調的是今天討論的是停侃絕對不是恢復大家都已經講得非常清楚"},{"start":6358.223,"end":6379.424,"text":"所以如果說有任何人還刻意要混淆這樣的一個概念故意來去講說這個是扭曲這其實是非常可惡的事情再者到目前為止我們必須講每一個族群我們都非常的照顧我也自己為相關的勞工朋友為我們的軍人朋友為我們的教師朋友"},{"start":6380.625,"end":6406.296,"text":"軍警消等大家應該要照顧的都應該照顧絕對不是為特定族群來發聲我每一次在做年金改革的時候我只有八個字要講就是保障現職照顧退休但很遺憾的是如果說到現在還有執政黨委員認為是說我們再也是為特定族群講話的話那不就更證實了過去你們執政了八年九年你們從頭到尾沒有把"},{"start":6407.216,"end":6429.111,"text":"教師 警察 消防 軍人當自己人嗎如果都是台灣2350萬人一份子各行各業在這塊土地上共同生活我們要想的是每一個族群都要被照顧到每一個族群都應該要有永續跟公平的方式來對待"},{"start":6430.782,"end":6441.83,"text":"永續 我們都希望永續啊勞退的永續是怎麼做用撥補做那為什麼勞退的永續可以撥補其他的制度沒有辦法"},{"start":6442.967,"end":6464.934,"text":"公平我們當然也希望公平但剛剛聽到有在場的委員有講到現在的這個教師的一個制度其實用的一個基準是2017年那時候討論的一個標準來算出來最低的一個退休保障那我們要問2017年那個時候的物價跟現在的物價有想過已經大幅的攀升了嗎"},{"start":6465.674,"end":6471.276,"text":"2017年時候雞排一塊50元現在雞排一塊80 1002017年那時候便當一個60元現在便當一個100 120這樣的一個物價通貨膨脹不也是在民進黨主政的八年之下而造成的嗎"},{"start":6485.049,"end":6500.301,"text":"最後我必須真的很誠實的在講其實我們沒有要阻止改革改革應該要做但如果改革是走錯路或改革的初衷跟現在的現實已經背離了應該要調整就應該要檢討"},{"start":6502.918,"end":6515.389,"text":"就如同現在核電的議題我們也看到啊都還有講說核二廠核三廠已經隨時可以重啟的一個情況連能源政策省主牌都要拋離的時候我們難道不應該更理性務實的檢討嗎也因此站在這邊我們每一個人為自己的發言來負責但最重要的是"},{"start":6523.095,"end":6537.672,"text":"照顾台湾2350万人这个是不分你我共同的责任更是政府的责任政府做得到就是换人做执政谢谢好谢谢洪孟凯委员接下来请徐宇珍委员发言"},{"start":6539.598,"end":6559.766,"text":"主席 各位官員大家好我想今天我們坐在這邊主要是要來探討針對教職員的退休之前的停侃的問題我剛聽到民進黨的委員講說不要把勞保跟退福基金來相比可是一直以來把勞保跟退福基金相比的是民進黨"},{"start":6560.706,"end":6565.369,"text":"不是國民黨所以今天我們大家務實的來去回應現在的一個問題就是我們為什麼要提出停砍我們的這個退休金就是因為我們知道現在的我們的所有的一些公職人員教師人員"},{"start":6577.535,"end":6600.22,"text":"其實我曾經有一個校長告訴我說他們在年輕的時候呢因為其實教師的薪資是相對低當時政府希望大家一起共提時間等到你年長了退休了放心有政府來養你結果呢到他們真正退休之後呢結果政府告訴你說你的薪水太高我要開始主年停凱"},{"start":6600.76,"end":6621.09,"text":"一直砍砍砍砍到你完全沒有辦法生活為止那這樣完全的違反了這個信賴保護原則那所以今天提出一個立刻終止公立學校的教職員的退休所的替債率的這個持續遞減的一個機制就是希望我們這些退休的教職員能夠安享晚年展現對國家服務的這個承諾跟照顧的義務"},{"start":6626.813,"end":6643.744,"text":"所以我們可以看到因為停砍這些年來我們造成什麼樣一個問題呢就是新的老師也不願意開始執教編了因為看到現在退休的這些教職人員所受到的待遇所以我們可以看到2019年拿到教師證任教率大概70.95%但是2023年已經下滑到60.1%短短的五年間已經下降整整一成"},{"start":6651.169,"end":6676.071,"text":"因為整個教育的環境不是再被年輕人所嚮往也讓曾經為教育一生的這個教師在退休後被迫為生活煩憂所以這不僅是教師實質化的根源更是社會教職一個崩塌所以呢退休金持續遞減的一個狀況加上通膨的因素事實上已經造成退休公教的這個人員的實質所得大幅的縮水"},{"start":6676.551,"end":6697.232,"text":"所以原本被民進黨政府設定為合理的所得替代率事實上在嚴峻的通膨環境下已經不足以支應最基本的生活需求所以為國家培養下一代的老師反而在退休之後為了通膨而成為這個制度下的受害者這是國家對他們的回報嗎"},{"start":6698.493,"end":6703.056,"text":"所以呢本席在這邊也建議要將物價指數調整門檻由5%下修為正2%負2%負5%最主要就是要檢討而且主要應該是要兩年應該要予以檢討那這項條文有三個重要的意義是回應通膨的現實還有建立定期檢討的機制而且維護政府信用跟公務體系的穩定謝謝"},{"start":6727.915,"end":6752.068,"text":"好 謝謝徐宇珍委員的發言那麼我們現在大體討論的登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那麼稍後進入主條討論的時候我們就再請機關代表就個別的條文來聚焦說明那麼所以現在就大體討論到此結束那個主席我會建議一下要進入大體畢竟剛剛也討論很多沒有問題好 主條等一下就可以討論"},{"start":6752.668,"end":6768.842,"text":"但是我建議在大體結束之前因為剛剛有很多委員講的說法可能不管是藍白委員或是執政黨可能都有一些需要官員先就大體討論的時候做一個總體的回覆好不好哪些東西我覺得這樣比較好然後再進入主條這樣可以嗎"},{"start":6770.163,"end":6796.668,"text":"就讓他們針對剛剛我建議是這樣我怕等一下太多講該說明清楚就沒機會了我們就尊重吳斯堯委員的建議那就請教育部部長待會就三分鐘的發言考試院副秘書長也需要嗎那就請施部長發言三分鐘然後機關代表發言完之後我們中間就休息休息之後我們就再進入逐條"},{"start":6799.009,"end":6822.498,"text":"討論就進入我們還是休息一下好了讓大家休息十分鐘可以去上個洗手間那麼休息十分鐘之後再回來進入到主條討論好同樣的待會需要發言的主條討論需要發言的委員也可以到主席台前面先來登記發言好那我們就先請鄭部長請發言三分鐘謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":6825.339,"end":6851.872,"text":"我首先在這個利用這個機會感謝我們所有的委員對全國退休的老師的這個退休後生活的一個關心表達感謝第二個我也利用這個機會向全國所有退休的老師過去為台灣產業各項人才的一個培育所做的努力來表達感謝那我想"},{"start":6854.482,"end":6883.343,"text":"我們也看到大部分的這些退休老師其實他們也做了許多非常有益於他們退休生活的許多的安排或寄情山林或以旅遊來走讀認識各個不同文化的一個風采那偶爾也會定期跟朋友聚會歡唱當然也有"},{"start":6885.285,"end":6907.873,"text":"含淫弄孫都宜然自得那我想大部分的老師我們看到他們也因為這個我們我必須要這麼講當我們在思考怎麼樣對退休老師有更大的照顧其實這些年來政府不管哪一個政黨執政在跨部會的一個奴隸我們的全民健保"},{"start":6908.593,"end":6926.313,"text":"我們的這個長照的一個服務事實上在對這些全國人民包含我們這些退休老師的退休生活的照顧健康的照顧事實上都相當有具體的貢獻我想我們也很清楚"},{"start":6927.234,"end":6952.587,"text":"過去的一個這個退伍基金退伍的一些制度事實上是當時的一個考量我們全國人民的一個這一個餘命退休後的我們整個人民的一個這一個座命事實上跟現在因為醫療上所造成包括許多老師的一個養生他們都確實是造成了一個退休幾乎上"},{"start":6953.607,"end":6981.754,"text":"這一個產生了一些挑戰那也因為這樣我們才看到這一個年金的改革事實上是來自於剛才委員所提的這一個世代的一個互助也希望能夠永續也能夠希望能夠公平也希望能夠給新世代這些許多年輕人在許多的工作生活各方面的照顧有一個更好的一個制度所以我想"},{"start":6983.132,"end":6997.744,"text":"剛才我也這兩天我也聽了委員也提了很多譬如說我們確實以老師現在85%現在月退儘管每年在減但是以今年來講事實上這個還有85%月退月領是五萬塊以上那麼"},{"start":7003.499,"end":7022.038,"text":"有這個平均是5.8萬就是年改結束以後也有69%是0.5萬然後平均是5.3萬我簡單的來講這些東西再加上我們全民的健保跟這個長照的一些協助我相信一般的"},{"start":7022.699,"end":7036.32,"text":"老師基本上他的生活上都受到照顧但是我也不容否認我們因為有部分少數的退休老師因為退休以後特殊這個記憶所造成許多"},{"start":7037.805,"end":7057.838,"text":"生活或者健康上照顧需要有更多的我想在不管從中央到地方都有許多的一些社會輔助的這些機制我相信他們也會有一定的獲得到一個相對好的一個照顧所以我也拜託委員是不是能夠繼續基於這一個整個我們這一個"},{"start":7061.767,"end":7076.434,"text":"所有的全國國民的整個產業上的總體的考量包含國家的財政上的考量能夠予以維持目前的一個年改的辦法以上 謝謝好 謝謝鄭部長接下來我們就請施部長發言"},{"start":7083.104,"end":7105.206,"text":"謝謝主席 各位我想全局部主管基金我們今天討論所有提案我都從基金的財務的角度來談這個問題那我跟各位解釋說我們現在面臨的問題就是基金的水庫會用光在138年是公務人員 教育人員是134年那我們任何去更動他當然都讓他提早用光那現在我要充分解釋為什麼他會用光"},{"start":7106.089,"end":7121.516,"text":"我覺得這個剛剛所討論我必須把這個事情講清楚因為這個基金已經30年了他之所以會用光簡單的道理就是一開始因為我們退府基金跟勞退是不一樣勞退叫做確定提撥制他不會破產"},{"start":7123.052,"end":7144.801,"text":"那如果退府基金是確定給複製他就有破產的可能除非大家都根據應該繳的費率去繳那一開始從基金一開始假設那時候精算報告就告訴你每個人要交15塊結果我們是從8塊開始交起一直交到大概114年我們才開始從12塊調到15塊所以這累積起來就是缺口"},{"start":7150.686,"end":7168.661,"text":"缺口意思就是說剛剛有人提到就是說自己平常的時候繳的錢當然多可是繳的錢當然多是因為你是一個水庫確定給付制你繳的多不足以因為你沒有提撥足夠的稅率 費率所以你根本不足以支付根據它算出來你每個月拿的錢"},{"start":7169.952,"end":7199.084,"text":"所以當初的選擇是這樣一個字這個選擇是當初就是不足而提撥那我們現在叫共同承擔這個不足而提撥站在部裡面討論這個財務的一個角度就是這個不足而提撥怎麼樣讓大家能夠多回攤一點年改就是在做這個事情也就是說所以我們說政府把節省的挹注款放回去然後已退休的同仁或者退休的同仁逐年讓他減少領一點"},{"start":7200.091,"end":7218.216,"text":"事實上就是在大家共同再來分攤一下以前沒有足以提撥的錢我想從白話就這樣解釋那現在如果再把它往前提早就等於是減少大家在分攤以前的責任我還是要講這個水庫138年或134年以後就沒了"},{"start":7219.176,"end":7235.154,"text":"這是另外一個大的議題我們今天所有討論都在討論前面這個議題所以站在布裡面的角度會建議大家真的這個水庫已經會用盡就不要再把它往前提我還是要講完了以後事實上以今年領的那個實質金額"},{"start":7237.617,"end":7261.232,"text":"也大概都超過五萬塊教育人員當然更高因為教育人員高的原因有他本來他那個最後那個可以領的退休金那個縫點會比較高這個是技術上的一個問題那所以我只是在講說這是一個議題那至於說如果從這個角度來講剛剛委員提到說我們可不可以用個數字去算說這樣假設你一輩子進來這個體系你工作幾年你實際上繳了多少保費"},{"start":7262.438,"end":7285.757,"text":"那根據你開始領退休金假設你可以領20年你領了多少錢這個到底超過幾倍這個事情當然每一個人的狀況不一樣但是我們有試算過我現在沒有辦法說一定是幾倍但是超過幾倍 一定有但是因為每一個人的狀況不一樣高的人可能會超過十幾倍少的人可能幾倍我只是在講說大概就是這個狀況"},{"start":7286.653,"end":7303.567,"text":"那最後呢剛剛有委員提到說因為60%是我們算118年所謂60%相當於七成如果我們現在停止在114年那就是會66%就不是60%大概就相當於78%的這個月薪我想我就就這些數字做以上補充好那麼謝謝部長的說明那因為我們待會進入調審查之後呢還有"},{"start":7315.882,"end":7334.932,"text":"機會再進行討論那待會可能也可以請部長也可以再進一步的說明到底政府這30年來總共是這個提撥補足了多少的比例好那麼看起來整個不足額的提撥是公教人員和政府或許都有不足而提撥的情況那麼政府到底不足而提撥的"},{"start":7335.643,"end":7344.773,"text":"比例有多少 待會之後主條審查的時候有機會再請部長再詳細說明好那我們現在就休息十分鐘十分鐘之後我們就進入到主條討論 謝謝"},{"start":7996.653,"end":7998.586,"text":"好 請各位官員請回座"},{"start":8000.1,"end":8029.415,"text":"我們現在就繼續開會進行逐條討論那麼本席也依照立法院議事規則30條的規定與委員發言前先宣告發言時間原則上也是同大體討論一樣每位發言時間是3分鐘那麼我們逐條討論的發言登記截止時間是定在11點10分就截止發言登記所以如果說有委員要針對其他條文做發言的話"},{"start":8029.935,"end":8050.393,"text":"那麼就可以在11點10分之前來登記好的那我們就現在先開始逐條討論首先先進行第三條有委員張志倫等19人提案好那我們就先進行討論首先先請吳思瑤委員發言"},{"start":8052.919,"end":8072.439,"text":"今天所有的条文跟昨天的公务同仁退府条例其实都是一致的也是联动的所以我想今天大家都可以清楚讲重点就好那第三条张志伦委员的提案我昨天也已经清楚的说了他修错条文放错地方了那也造成可能会"},{"start":8073.355,"end":8091.486,"text":"把這個新舊退休的把它分野的話會造成適用的問題所以我是具體建議昨天這一條也保留了那最重要的是它修錯條文這樣子的精神如果要修是應該是放在後面討論的第37條所以這一條其實不太需要再花時間討論了謝謝"},{"start":8095.819,"end":8110.141,"text":"那張綺凱委員發言好 我們今天的討論很重要是因為剛剛有提到我們整個國家的財政變化很大以前財政非常不好所以有年金改革那最近民進黨自己都講了你最近這八年確實財政變好了"},{"start":8110.942,"end":8126.381,"text":"不只是中央預算的這個中央政府總預算的規模大幅的增加所以說的超增所以我們現在要開始要領一萬塊了嘛對不對所以既然財政已經變好就不要再砍了更重要的我們是法治的國家一切要依法"},{"start":8127.102,"end":8150.248,"text":"我們有一個成功的個案在那邊勞動部每年依法撥補我強調一個他的成功是因為勞動部已經這樣做了他依法而且每一年大概有1300億的撥補只要照這個成功的模式做公教根本沒有這個問題那現在問題出在什麼地方今天教育部長我剛剛特別提醒了當"},{"start":8151.848,"end":8178.48,"text":"勞動部一年撥補了1300億的時候113年教育部只撥了50億114年只撥了74億落差真的太大了你們應該跟勞動部學習去爭取該有的十年方案把該補的錢把它補足這個是非常非常重要的這樣就沒有所謂破產的問題我也要提醒一點事實上教育部不只撥補的不夠"},{"start":8180.407,"end":8195.92,"text":"你們的撥補最主要是針對新制的基金舊的機制到目前你們的撥補是零你看天壤之北啊明明勞動部這是一個成功的個案勞工是個成功個案勞動部到目前對舊制的是零喔所以我們今天要求的是"},{"start":8197.37,"end":8223.249,"text":"學習這個成功的模式依法來做這事情然後該撥補的就要足而這個撥補不要變成一個違法的教育部這是一個 第二個有些錯誤的這個數據要明確的趕快去更正陳培椅陳委員昨天講了一個非常離譜的一個數據公教人員昨天已經提出更正我建議你應該道歉他竟然說公教的退府基金政府已經撥補了2900多億事實上他把砍了公教退休人員的"},{"start":8226.758,"end":8240.323,"text":"養老金救命錢2700一竟然把它變成是政府的撥補基金整個公交團體都炸過了我覺得今天也利用這個機會不只把事據把它弄清楚不要再誤導而且我覺得陳佩琪陳委員你要對退休的公交人員鄭重道歉好 接下來請鍾嘉賓委員發言"},{"start":8247.608,"end":8265.043,"text":"好 謝謝其實今天大部分的論述在昨天公務退府的時候就已經談過了那麼公務員退府的部分我們到這裡還繼續談同樣的一些誤謬包括剛剛張旗開的委員發明我再講一次目前我們在昨天討論的公務人員退休撫恤"},{"start":8266.184,"end":8285.98,"text":"之前撫恤法當中第93條第二項他說前項退伍制度之建立至退伍基金用慶年度提前之財務缺口由政府依退伍基金財務精算結果至前項退伍制度實施之日起分年編列預算撥款補助之我們簡稱撥補"},{"start":8287.701,"end":8297.107,"text":"這是定在公務人員退休之前撫恤法第93條我們在教育人員部分類似那至於說您口口聲聲說因為退撫"},{"start":8298.998,"end":8318.218,"text":"剛剛我們部長也講了公教跟勞工的退休是不一樣的公教的退休是確定幾複製承諾給你多少一定給你多少但是你在職的時候有沒有確定的如實的按照精算的結果去提繳呢 沒有但是勞工退休的部分是確定"},{"start":8319.019,"end":8333.613,"text":"提撥制也就是說雇主要幫你提的6%一毛都不會少所以目前勞退是沒有問題但是勞工保險條例由於保險是用保費來支付各種的項目"},{"start":8334.373,"end":8357.043,"text":"生育啦 傷殘啦 老年啦 死亡啦那因為勞工的情況是因為人口老化 因為少子化的結果每年投入職場加入勞保的人是逐年減少但是每年從勞保開始退休來提領這個老年給付的是越來越多因此呢 政府進行了撥補好 有沒有法源依據 唸給你聽"},{"start":8358.443,"end":8377.895,"text":"現行條文勞工保險條例第66條他說勞工保險基金之來源如左一創立時政府一次撥付之金額就這樣而已其他的就是保費和支息保險費的支納金以及基金運用的收益就是剛文張委員昨天一直講的就是操作如果有收益"},{"start":8378.735,"end":8391.751,"text":"有沒有辦法每年都是7、8%我不肯確定但是就是有收益另外69條勞工保險如有虧損在中央保險局未成立前應由中央主管機關審核撥補到目前為止是原用這69條"},{"start":8397.406,"end":8417.038,"text":"中央勞工保險局未成立前那成立後呢成立後這60條沒有規範那要說的是說政府啊他對於各項的社會保險他都努力的讓他能夠持續的運作所以基於永續的需求政府呢至於在財務調度上許可的時候"},{"start":8418.179,"end":8434.449,"text":"對勞保條例進行撥補這不是你剛剛說的這不是法定義務法律沒有規範反倒是目前我們公教退府的部分是有明擺的我們要看法律條文看是不是一樣有明擺的寫在這裡面所以一旦的不斷的跟退休同仁說現在給我們公教退府的到底那些錢"},{"start":8440.113,"end":8459.398,"text":"少領的或者說因為所得替代率下降少領的這些錢少領什麼錢少領的剛剛昨天部長講的很多都是18%政府編預算去補那個利息的差額這些是用預算去編列補利息的差額這些利息的差額因為所得替代率降低沒有領走所以政府也沒有把這個錢不編列一樣編列只是把編列的錢回歸到我們的退伏基金裡面"},{"start":8465.98,"end":8494.887,"text":"這就是所謂的用政府預算撥補的概念請詹委員回去再認真的把以前昨天部長講的錄影帶再看一遍好我想待會還有機會再討論好來我們接下來請陳佩瑜委員發言需要發言嗎好那就"},{"start":8495.745,"end":8513.415,"text":"好那我們接下來好請陳佩玉委員發言好謝謝主席我再一次強調我昨天說得非常清楚2590E是依照第40條的議注那至於撥補的部分如果委員張委員您非常堅持那個字眼的話其實在撥補的部分我昨天也有講到就是剛剛鍾嘉斌委員已經講了"},{"start":8514.215,"end":8531.525,"text":"就是公保跟勞保的部分請搞清楚它是保險那退休金的部分我們講的是退輔基金跟勞退基金其實不一樣那就算是撥補目前在實施專戶新制的缺口三年已經累積編列512億這個我昨天有講未來如果預計分十年撥補還會達到3370億你要主席他一直打擾我講話報告主席"},{"start":8539.711,"end":8545.52,"text":"所以我想今天我再次強調因為你叫我回應我就回應我回應你又要插嘴是怎樣我回應你我沒有罵你我回應你我想先還請尊重陳佩玉委員的發言"},{"start":8557.618,"end":8580.528,"text":"而且我昨天在相關法規範的部分講得很清楚是用來補足相關的部分這些的財務缺口政府一直都有在負責相關的數字我們昨天也都講得非常清楚我不知道這些那也因為昨天我們談了數字所以甚至王宏威委員昨天才會說也不過就是兩千多億不過兩千多億也不過就是提早破產所以如果這個是國民黨團跟民眾黨的"},{"start":8582.169,"end":8608.823,"text":"黨團的主張提早破產沒關係不過就是這些錢然後這些錢讓全民納稅人買單也不過就是照顧58萬人如果這是你們的主張那我們當然也只能說我們沒有辦法同意所以我們今天才坐在這裡極力的論述希望大家可以找到一個最大的共識那至於我要拜託張綺凱委員真的是不需要再針對我我昨天已經再次解釋過也說明過依照法理的部分他在"},{"start":8609.943,"end":8616.608,"text":"他在40條講挹注然後在93條講撥補那政府該做的也都做了好 以上 謝謝主席好 接下來請議員 執委員發言剛剛陳培宇委員講說哎呀 讓他破產啊但是這不過是照顧58萬人啊破產是王航蕾昨天說的王航蕾昨天說你公佈說別人打岔你也打岔別人民進黨為什麼這麼雙標啊"},{"start":8638.866,"end":8644.409,"text":"我真的很怕他認到雙標的政黨耶因為你昨天沒來講你那是說人家打斷你嘛那你為什麼要打斷我你是我的代言人嗎 引述錯誤我懶得理你 你還說上癮了眼睛瞎了"},{"start":8656.195,"end":8678.655,"text":"他講話人家打斷他就罵人家我講話他就打斷我好請各位委員不要雙標好不好我現在是針對說要尊重平常委員的發言然後議員是委員待會你再重新開始好嗎重新開始好對因為我想我們今天還是維持會議繼續不用重新開始沒關係但是希望民進黨不要插嘴好的那麻煩待會就是讓發言的委員把話講完謝謝"},{"start":8681.612,"end":8705.429,"text":"剛剛講說不過是照顧58萬人我覺得這句話聽在公務人員跟老師的耳朵裡面情何以堪啊原來對民進黨而言老師跟公務人員只是一個數字不管人數多少我覺得該做的事情就是該做不是說只有58萬人占我們台灣的人數的少數就可以犧牲他們的權益"},{"start":8706.938,"end":8726.658,"text":"這種話是對公務人員跟老師的極度不尊重坦白說啦 我覺得大家討論這個退伏啦很多老師跟公務人員大家要的不過就是一個尊重嘛這一輩子為國家付出老師在教育這個領域教育學生 做育英才結果現在對民進黨而言不過只是58萬人"},{"start":8728.854,"end":8757.351,"text":"有尊重嗎當初進到這個政府機關為國家來做事政府告訴他們薪水比較少我們這個叫遞延年金就是現在領的比較少沒有關係之後那個退休的那個所得替代率比較高OK那後來有沒有改改啦本來講說哎呀超過100%後來有沒有逐年遞減減啦所以現在最高的所得替代率只有七成嘛現在只是停止而已嘛"},{"start":8758.271,"end":8777.564,"text":"只是停止而已嘛講的好像都不堪一樣然後剛剛一直在講說如果說要停止扣這個所得替代率的話到時候破產之後現職老師會領不到退休金第一 政府為什麼會讓退職老師領不到退休金你們真的會讓他破產嗎"},{"start":8779.209,"end":8807.014,"text":"如果國家財政好的情況之下政府用撥補的方式作為一個雇主讓對老師的承諾可以兌現為什麼不做這是 你是雇主耶你們自己也講了啊這個叫確定己負制啊就是當初該怎麼樣就怎麼樣嘛那老師也做了犧牲啊那之後如果說你覺得會有可能會用完那政府用撥補的方式讓這個退休制度持續運作為什麼不行啊"},{"start":8807.794,"end":8829.648,"text":"我覺得這個是該做該做不該做的問題如果真的一直用這種方式然後去挑撥真的沒有意義然後一直講說會影響到現職老師我真的奉勸民進黨去跟現職老師做個民調因為昨天我也看了你們的民調你們去調查一下現職老師支持不支持他們支持不支持他們的退休"},{"start":8830.732,"end":8851.277,"text":"所得替代率七成 最高七成嘛還是像你們講的六成如果說限職老師也一致支持的話這就沒有所謂的限職老師跟退休老師對立的問題啦所以不要一直操作這樣的一個對立啦然後也不要去用別的職業然後來好像覺得好像別的職業有受委屈沒有"},{"start":8852.017,"end":8864.645,"text":"老保怎麼樣大家都支持公教也支持所以對於公教支持我相信全民就支持只要是該做的國家該做就要去做好 謝謝葉委員接下來請賴委員發言謝謝主席以及各位先進"},{"start":8870.117,"end":8892.37,"text":"我幾個重點 第一個我還是再次強調我們這次的修法是stop here沒有說要恢復到以前 沒有 就stop here 為什麼因為CPI一直漲 物價一直漲 國家一直很有錢為什麼要犧牲這些人呢 我們這6年半來已經砍了快3000億了"},{"start":8894.81,"end":8907.265,"text":"但是同時間勞保博股的如果包括115年度勞保博股的5000億啊這裡面就是比較嘛我是替老師講話替公務員講話各位"},{"start":8911.169,"end":8930.644,"text":"手心手背都是肉啊勞工是是台灣人中華民國的人啊公教人員也是中華民國的人為什麼伯伯是退休而且不要忘了當初年改的時候召集的是誰陳建仁陳建仁說軍公教勞一起改"},{"start":8932.072,"end":8960.267,"text":"結果公改了 教改了 軍也改了 軍改了比較少一點公教大幅改 我舉例來講國立大學教授 主席就是清大的教授啊國立大學教授砍了剩六成啊 腰斬啊國立大學教授大家臉皮很薄 不講話我們部長也是國立大學教授出來的啊你要替這些教師講話啊替國立大學的教授講話啊 砍了剩六成啊"},{"start":8961.247,"end":8990.054,"text":"砍得一塌糊塗砍得最兇的是國立大學教授老實講我自己是從國立大學教授出來我就很有感覺啊砍得太兇了那時候民進黨多數暴力通過壓過去 輾壓過去這樣子的一個結果那現在我們只是一個卑微的一個要求 訴求可以不可以stop here已經看七年了夠了enough is enough"},{"start":8991.174,"end":9015.488,"text":"砍到已經建古了我的提案裡面我就一起講 我的提案裡面是我們現在來講是什麼CPI累積到5%然後4年內要review一次我把它改成CPI5改成3 為什麼改成3這個有道理 央行的總裁不斷的說他說他心裡的CPI2%"},{"start":9017.83,"end":9039.536,"text":"我們央行總裁公開說台灣能夠容忍的CPI就是2%那我已經把它放寬到3%就要review四年review一次太慢了兩年要review一次我覺得我的修法這麼清楚我希望能夠得到我們的委員會大家的支持我們我再強調一遍"},{"start":9042.321,"end":9044.687,"text":"老保的撥補5000億我們都同意為什麼這裡砍掉了3000億"},{"start":9050.586,"end":9073.903,"text":"我們要把它拿回來 沒有啊不要再砍了 一年大概砍500億左右是500億 只剩3年而已啊就是1000多億啊 1000多億有這麼偉大嗎我們現在不是一直講我們GDP多少多少多少我們的這個創新高 今年大概GDP可以成長5%既然台灣的財務情況這麼好的情況之下"},{"start":9076.605,"end":9083.231,"text":"就撥補嘛撥補不講過官也講過啊老爸都可以撥補為什麼公教不可以撥補謝謝好 謝謝賴委員那接下來請莊瑞雄委員發言謝謝其實現在講的是在講第三條啦大家比較講的都是廢話你知道嗎你們到底是有你們到底是有真的在審嗎沒有在審嗎那其實我把它聽一聽以後啊"},{"start":9105.049,"end":9129.622,"text":"原汁你又跑去了我就準備跟他說那個觀念錯誤不要一直再錯下去啦你那個債值提薪多少你那個總額是確定的啦你捏多少那是確定的所以那個不是一個地緣工資的一個退伏的一個給予並不是地緣工資的一個給付這個大家講清楚啦你們既然要引用大法官會議的解釋就不要給看前段那第二個就是說"},{"start":9130.322,"end":9137.29,"text":"第二個就是說大家談其實談到最後都是錢的問題不是誰砍誰以國民黨朋友來講的話說我們不是要恢復到過去我們只是說這要停下來了今天在談這個今天審這個法案你們所提出來的我當然知道你們講的就是叫做照顧"},{"start":9149.384,"end":9169.037,"text":"那要照顧的話就是要來討論怎麼個照顧法基金裡面呢專屬的一個水庫裡面你說流光了以後當然就沒得領嘛那要怎麼樣讓水再進去就好幾個方法嘛好幾個方法裡面不是說都不要去管其他的改革都不用讓他破產也沒關係甚至於你講說不會破產的國家是在的是"},{"start":9177.199,"end":9190.319,"text":"國家一直把它丟錢什麼東西都不要做一直丟進來那絕對不會破產我也認為絕對不會破產可是我們要講的就是說他要讓一個基金去做永續的話本來就不是只有一個方法叫做撥補"},{"start":9191.69,"end":9206.782,"text":"你像譬如說你所得替代率的一個調降,或者說好幾個方法,剛剛跟你講出好幾樣的一個太陽,我就不想講了,昨天講到現在了。那我們一個意思就是說,也不要讓它變成一個無底洞。"},{"start":9207.422,"end":9228.008,"text":"重點在這裡而已啦那你們是認為說無底洞沒關係啦反正政府當莊家政府當然是莊家政府到最後勢必有撥補的一個責任但是不是只有撥補這一條路而已啦你領到最後你基金真的是一直那個你基金的一個投資本金你一直下降的話"},{"start":9229.048,"end":9233.47,"text":"因為你總是要去投資嘛 要去賺一點錢回來嘛你捏了之後你就沒有了 你就沒有了 你要收你的變救你的財務 你的惡化會更快 這個大家都懂啦不要說大家都不懂啦 你要的就是你想要強行通過表決到最後你也會通過 但是只是大家這個地方要講道理這個地方要講道理 不是說拿誰來類比類比有相對剝奪感怎麼樣 本來就是為類比啊"},{"start":9254.505,"end":9268.651,"text":"一定會類比啊你勞工的部分一個基金一個水庫公教又一個水庫其他人又一個水庫好那我都不是在這個水庫你現在說會說勞工啦你現在說會說公教領完啦我們都正慘了要怎麼辦"},{"start":9272.581,"end":9288.845,"text":"錢就是全民的錢嘛就這麼簡單嘛那當然大家又要去討論這樣的一個公平性的一個問題啊關心退休的人關心年紀比較老的人都對但是你說不會產生後面的人領不到嗎會啊 怎麼不會你就去撥補的話撥補就是全民的錢啊那幹嘛設計這個基金那不用設計基金啊要基金幹什麼反正就是政府就是給我就好啦政府就給我啦"},{"start":9300.458,"end":9303.099,"text":"所以我們現在討論的其實都是 跟我們昨天說的都一樣意思啦沒有人真的在討論 大家在罵來罵去 政府有沒有撥補 有啊所以剛剛你在批評陳佩玉也不對啊 政府確實有去撥補啊只是你認為說政府要再丟更多一點嘛 你的想法是這樣子嘛這個部分也不用相互攻擊嘛"},{"start":9326.571,"end":9332.576,"text":"說一句這個意思就是說你要怎麼去解釋要怎麼去解釋說是怎樣不是在這個基金的人你要拿他的錢把它錄到那裡去就這麼簡單而已啊以上啦阿拉伯你就針對條文嘛你們想幹什麼我就很清楚嘛阿不然昨天討論到現在你們哪有在煮條沒有人在煮條啊都只有我在煮條耶好不好"},{"start":9347.728,"end":9361.652,"text":"好這個我們其實昨天每一條也都有在逐條討論因為發言的委員很多好那接下來請張志倫委員張志倫委員張志倫委員不在那接下來請徐欣英委員發言不好意思好好對他在門口好張志倫委員好"},{"start":9374.605,"end":9397.537,"text":"好謝謝主席那今天我們逐條審查這個有關於這個公教人員的權益那一樣我要特別報告就是說其實今天大家我今天是理性討論不要用這個惡意攻擊或是造謠的一個方式來討論這樣的問題因為這條核心的修法重點的就是要排除84年前退休的"},{"start":9398.497,"end":9421.06,"text":"這個公立教師不受現行退輔基金的限制為什麼呢因為他們84年以前他們是屬於N級制不是撥補制的所以當時沒有退輔基金這樣的一個內容所以他們當年沒有繳基金退休金也不是從基金支出那如今基金有缺口需要他們把他們納入計算一起來砍他們的退休金所以這樣子補漏洞的方式他們認為是完全的不合理"},{"start":9421.64,"end":9447.898,"text":"我們今天為什麼會提出這樣的修法內容其實就是因為他們人數雖然比較少84年前退休的人雖然比較少可是就在修法的時候我覺得很多內容應該要充分討論雖然是少數人的權益可是我們還是要納入討論出來因為這些老師其實很多都八九十歲人數極少其實政府如果持續給付的話對財政影響不會影響非常大其實今天我也看了自由時報"},{"start":9448.919,"end":9472.742,"text":"他的一個年金改革的一個社論他也特別提到說其實當時84年前是廢除N級制84年以後才採共同提撥的儲金制所以在今天的內容裡面也寫得非常清楚然後他也特別提到說年金改革不應該是鐵板一塊民進黨當初的領導人也說年改微調是可以延逸的方向"},{"start":9473.763,"end":9501.664,"text":"所以我要拜託就是說今天大家可以理性務實的討論不要用這個抹黑造謠大家互相攻擊的方式我覺得才是今天大家討論我們這些法條的這個核心以上 謝謝好 謝謝張委員接下來請徐欣穎委員發言好 謝謝我想進入條文討論之前本席要在這裡來宣稱最重要我們年金改革最重要的基本立場"},{"start":9502.685,"end":9527.503,"text":"我們的論述絕對不是特權而是我們要強調國家的契約必須被尊重也必須履行這樣的堅定主張我要為我們社會最寶貴的一群人默默耕耘奉獻一生的公教人員發出最真切的呼聲這一群被國家毀約的公教人員他們"},{"start":9528.624,"end":9553.783,"text":"在当年他们选择投入职场的时候大家回想看看台湾经济起飞的年代这群公教人员他们的同窗好友投身商场科技业享受月薪数十万资产累积数千万上亿的果实的时候他们选择了小康淡适稳定的教职公教人员生涯"},{"start":9554.463,"end":9572.146,"text":"这是他们出于对国家还有对教育的热爱那他们也相信国家退休给付承诺所以我们要特别强调他们的贡献不容抹灭而且年金是契约它不是施舍"},{"start":9572.927,"end":9588.661,"text":"所以退休保障本來就是在選擇職場和生涯規劃的重要考量如果不信任國家基於契約會承擔的責任絕非是少數人的福利或全民的施捨所以"},{"start":9589.775,"end":9607.431,"text":"我們的改革要著眼在永續而不是清算信賴保護原則大法官說沒這個原則我們執政黨也說沒這個原則但是除非國家是大型的詐騙集團又怎麼能夠昧著良心和專業來背棄這樣的承諾"},{"start":9610.814,"end":9633.258,"text":"所以我们要呼吁请给公教人员有一个尊严的晚年我们要求的是尊严与安定也请立即停止污蔑年金改革不应朔极既往我们请保障公教人员的退休金那我们一起为世代的公道为国家的信任坚定发声谢谢"},{"start":9636.621,"end":9662.76,"text":"好那現在第三條已登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了那列席機關還要發言嗎這一條應該不用了好的那我們就該條討論就到此結束我們現在就做成決議第三條決議保留好那我們接下來就進入到第九條的討論也是委員張志倫等19人提案那麼我們現在就進行主條討論"},{"start":9668.081,"end":9691.419,"text":"可能畫面 對 我先看一下先看第一位是哪一位第一位請吳思瑤委員先發言 謝謝好 經過兩天的討論我想從在野黨委員的口中都清楚的聽到他們肯定政府 民進黨執政拼經濟的成就所以稅收增加我們政府有更為優渥的裁員"},{"start":9692.539,"end":9711.693,"text":"謝謝你們肯定我們共同拼經濟有成也謝謝在野黨的委員共同肯定我們年改上路到現在七八年的時間有正向的成果而且用在投資的效益也有5%以上你們也共同肯定年改有成果所以你們才覺得改的已經夠了但是呢"},{"start":9714.298,"end":9740.678,"text":"你們無視於一個事實就是國家的錢該怎麼花怎麼用他需要看守財政紀律的原則不是國家有錢愛怎麼花就怎麼花不是國家有錢可以挖東牆補西牆我們省預算都知道哪一個項目用在什麼項目有清楚的對應所以再一次拿國防來補退府"},{"start":9741.278,"end":9761.083,"text":"或者是拿台電的錢來補退服在預算科目可以這樣挪用嗎省預算的ABC在野黨的委員你們都忘了嗎更何況你們都很輕易的說政府有錢政府負最終責任政府撥補就好了"},{"start":9762.168,"end":9778.606,"text":"政府撥補就好了代價是什麼就是預知未來就是透支下一代就是債留子孫所以說 錢不是這樣花我們是想辦法把基金的缺口"},{"start":9779.507,"end":9793.643,"text":"補漏補小而不是你們現在放任讓他缺口變大反正政府最終生一隻來抱就好代價就是預知未來透支下一代跟債留子孫回到第九條的條文"},{"start":9795.265,"end":9811.545,"text":"昨天我也說過張志倫委員的第三項增列的後半部分不只是要求政府扛更不合理的要求中央政府要扛地方政府應分擔金額的兩倍以上這就是惡中之惡"},{"start":9812.967,"end":9828.504,"text":"昨天我們在審公教人員的時候具體的數字中央跟地方來負責分擔退休金的應當提撥的部分是1比1公務人員的部分今天以教育人員的部分我跟相關部會調閱的資料"},{"start":9830.146,"end":9845.518,"text":"中央負擔的是22%地方政府負擔的是78%換言之你要從公安過去一分擔的比例負責兩成的分擔現在要20倍要中央分擔20倍"},{"start":9848.177,"end":9862.615,"text":"所以錢這樣開可以挖東牆補西牆然後可以地方也不用承擔的全部推給中央政府來撥補政府這樣完全經不起"},{"start":9863.436,"end":9884.368,"text":"你們濫用濫花金錢的龐大的惡果所以再一次呼籲這個條文也是萬萬不可它造成了另外一個不公平就是中央政府跟地方政府依法應當分擔比例的另外一個不公平而且你又造一次造成違憲的疑慮立委"},{"start":9887.33,"end":9908.702,"text":"把數字的分擔預算的支用的數字用單純修法立法的方式來凌駕行政權這完全凌駕了我們立法委員只能監督預算而不是增加支出指定支出而且是限定額度的支出或是倍數的支出這種錯誤的修法所以這一條我想昨天也討論過了真正的關鍵條文是後面的三條啦"},{"start":9914.525,"end":9943.386,"text":"所以我想民意腦團是我可以代表發言這一條就可以了好嗎那我們就是希望保留謝謝那請鍾嘉賓委員發言好不用了好那陳佩玉委員好那張志倫委員也不發言好謝謝那麼我們第九條登記發言的委員就發言完畢那列席機關代表官也不需要發言得到之後再一起好那該條討論就已經到此結束我們現在做成決議第九條就決議保留"},{"start":9944.187,"end":9968.407,"text":"那麼現在進入到第37條修正動議那麼總共有國民黨黨團提案委員賴士寶等29人提案委員徐宇貞等21人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員翁曉琳等18人提案委員黃建斌等16人提案委員萬美玲等16人提案委員黃國昌張啟凱等6人所提修正動議那麼我們就現在進行主條討論"},{"start":9974.289,"end":9980.656,"text":"抱歉第一位是好我們現在登記發言的順序第一位是張綺凱委員請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":9986.079,"end":10002.747,"text":"第37條 對 他們還在繼續聽好不好 對就先請第一位張委員先發言37條 台灣民眾黨提出修正動議我們立足從114年 就是今年以後不要再逐年降低了"},{"start":10003.854,"end":10023.602,"text":"不要再逐年降低 最重要的一個原因第一個因為主管機關 包括昨天的詢答也清楚主管機關是考試院 考試院的版本是從所得替代率80%每年下降1%就到70%的時候停可是呢 一黨獨大的民進黨當初大砍 它從75%開始砍"},{"start":10027.352,"end":10045.839,"text":"每一年砍了1.5%到今年為止已經砍了14%了超過主管機關當初提出來多了4%了所以基於主管機關這個標準我們呼籲不要再砍了另外台灣民眾黨非常理性務實科學我們也做了大型的民調多數的民眾也"},{"start":10047.24,"end":10052.863,"text":"認同停砍可是齊凱要強調這是台灣民眾黨的版本沒有在回售我們是針對已經被砍到刀刀劍骨只剩下66%的就已經被砍了三分之一了請不要再繼續再往下砍了不要再犧牲不要再霸凌我們的公教人員可是呢 沒有在往回售"},{"start":10068.692,"end":10083.813,"text":"另外我們今天也會等一下會提出因為這段時間的這個通膨跟CPI上漲得太快那我們沒有要推翻以前的我們現在強調的那個修正只是本來物價上漲本來累積5%就要調只是因為以前的"},{"start":10084.778,"end":10106.615,"text":"行政院跟考試院每次四年調整調整完以後都沒有達到累計這個標準所以我們等一下修法裡面有一部分是非常清楚只要是累計超過5%到底如果實際成長了多少就依照實際的這個數據來成長這樣最簡單的不用考試院也不要行政院又要做一個功課然後弄到後來又沒有實際這個反應另外我回應一下剛剛鍾嘉賓 鍾委員你剛練了一堆"},{"start":10111.699,"end":10118.483,"text":"勞保要撥補的啊那你眼睛是怎麼樣故意看不見是吧還是你對公教人員有仇視公教公教要撥補的條文有10條以上我今天早上已經練了三四條了你要不要看一下那個條文公教撥補退府基金"},{"start":10134.688,"end":10141.372,"text":"裡面的公務人員退休補給基金管理辦法第八條明確 裡面講 你有看嗎來啦 你先看 有啊公務人員退休之前補給條例第93條現在正在審的啊有在罰 上面寫什麼對啊 上面寫什麼寫要撥補對不對對啊 那你說為什麼不撥補不撥補不就是違法嗎你是眼睛故意有看沒有到還是"},{"start":10165.237,"end":10184.186,"text":"對啊 你練了一堆勞工的你也知道說公教是要撥補的依法就是要撥補 你故意看不到啊內容是不是講要撥補 唸給所有民眾聽是不是要撥補 你重提的是不是你還沒去簽名什麼第一項 有嗎 你剛剛都承認要撥補對不對"},{"start":10188.897,"end":10211.329,"text":"我們現在討論基金來基金如果不足的時候要做兩件事情政府撥補或者是調整繳費是不是有10條都做上規定結果你故意把它漏掉故意把它漏掉好 時間到了我強調請不要仇視我們的公教人員剛講50幾萬"},{"start":10218.513,"end":10240.479,"text":"那是五十幾萬辛辛苦苦一輩子貢獻給國家的公教人員五十幾萬個家庭他們家裡面不是只有公教耶他們家裡面不是有很多的勞工嗎而且你現在這樣一直砍已經砍過頭了也沒有要恢復以前只是停下來為什麼民進黨今天還一直在製造這個所謂社會對立"},{"start":10241.766,"end":10255.403,"text":"然後一直在講說勞工是成功的為什麼這個個案不能好好用勞工撥補了最近三年每一年1300億我們都贊成我們今天提的是說你明明不用破產"},{"start":10257.506,"end":10281.15,"text":"公教的退伏基金不能也不可以破產嘛對不對它不能也不會破產嘛你們為什麼要搞到破產呢依法也不能破產啊你們要違法嗎可是我們現在看到的是你勞工撥補我們贊成的同時你公教就是沒有撥補啊而且我剛剛講了你教育部長現在在這邊你們對救治的撥補是零耶這樣怎麼對得起退休的公教人員對得起他們的家庭啊好我們請沿用成功的個案依法"},{"start":10287.028,"end":10294.174,"text":"依法跟勞工一樣盡速撥補公教的這個基金不要讓它破產 謝謝好 謝謝張委員那接下來請吳思耀委員發言實在逼得我不得不拿出這一個替在野黨的委員上課"},{"start":10305.222,"end":10322.693,"text":"保险年金跟职业年金不要傻傻分不清不要叠沟倒菜兜有两层国家的制度第一层叫保险金第二层叫退休金但是蓝白的委员两者都混为一谈"},{"start":10323.613,"end":10332.099,"text":"在勞保的部分第一層的保險金國家已經預算撥補5170億用於1048萬個勞工平均政府從109年到115年透過預算來撥補給勞工勞保的是每個人49332元49000不到5萬"},{"start":10347.691,"end":10371.03,"text":"在公保的部分從88年到現在政府逐年編預算撥補5800億高於勞工但是公教同仁的人數使用這一補撥補的是58萬人所以換算出來政府對於保險金第一層的保險年金的預算撥補是平均每位公務人員100萬"},{"start":10372.611,"end":10391.866,"text":"这就是五万元劳工一人比一百万公务人员一人的比例我们不要评价我们就讲事实第二层退休金就是职业年金也是我们今天在讨论退府基金的部分我们今天在讨论的是第二层"},{"start":10393.637,"end":10415.706,"text":"勞保是勞退基金它是確定提撥制因為它是確定提撥制勞退實施了個人帳戶制之後政府是零撥補的但是在我們今天討論的昨天公務今天教育人員的退撫基金的條例的部分它是確定給複製"},{"start":10419.108,"end":10424.012,"text":"109年改革到現在政府的挹注款新制的部分挹注512億舊制挹注2590億"},{"start":10429.372,"end":10451.26,"text":"所以這是事實好 我們不要有評價但是公事不要第一層第二層搞不清楚保險金 退休金灰白青草不要滴溝倒菜兜不要傻傻分不清所以我們覺得很痛苦從昨天到今天跟你們都在不同的頻率上所以講事實我們不要給評價就講事實"},{"start":10457.6,"end":10471.556,"text":"最終回來這個條文你們緩降了所得替代率之後年金就是會加速破產基金就是會擴大缺口所以旗開委員你不要再說年金不會破產"},{"start":10472.857,"end":10481.442,"text":"或是你剛剛說是誰害年金破產就是你們啊就是你們啊就是你們國民黨跟外台民眾黨的立委拿這個案加速了基金可能的破產不能說得這麼雲淡風輕只要政府最終來撥補政府所有的錢都拿來贏所有納稅人的錢都拿來補"},{"start":10497.488,"end":10503.293,"text":"財政紀律在哪裡我說過預算不能挖東牆補西牆再次謝謝你們肯定民進黨政府拼經濟有成稅收成長讓你們都有了那個迷思政府很有錢政府無所不能但是"},{"start":10516.741,"end":10537.561,"text":"政府的无所不能要用在对的项目他有每一个预算编列的优先顺序不能排挤了其他的建设其他的社福不能排挤了其他的职业别之间的权益所以再说结论就是如果今天通过了你们的这一个"},{"start":10538.925,"end":10547.17,"text":"反年改的法案那就是預知未來那就是透支下一代那就是債留子孫"},{"start":10553.059,"end":10566.725,"text":"那個等一下 因為有登記發言的委員是到底要 剛主席宣告的是一檔一例 還是要數十人講 數十人講也沒關係啦就大家先講好 他也比一例啦你如果要講給你講也沒關係啦"},{"start":10571.417,"end":10598.604,"text":"沒關係 你要說也沒關係我這邊也尊重就是這個不同黨派委員的意見如果說大家認為因為我們很多的議題在昨天就已經討論過了那麼接下來基本上就現在37 38跟67條不然我們就之後的兩個條文裡面就每一個條文就是各一位代表好嗎每個政黨各一位代表"},{"start":10606.562,"end":10630.172,"text":"還是有不一樣因為剛才37 38的時候還是我是說沒有沒有說可能國民黨這邊要有一個了吧實在是有這個要就是就大家就一樣要不然就一邊一位吧對因為其實從早上到現在也是國民民進黨委員發言的人數也比較多"},{"start":10635.475,"end":10636.639,"text":"好就從下兩條開始好不好下兩條開始好"},{"start":10644.653,"end":10669.185,"text":"好啦 我們就基於尊重少數少數黨團少數政黨民進黨委員好 那他的意見那我們就從38條跟67條就是民進黨委員派兩位代表那國民黨跟民眾黨委員就各派一位代表好 謝謝好那就先請劉淑冰委員發言"},{"start":10670.697,"end":10686.435,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有現場的委員跟行政官員今天討論的37條是針對條例施行前的退休生效者他們每月的退休所得然後應該依照這個"},{"start":10688.897,"end":10692.68,"text":"負表三的所得替代率的上限來做計算我們本黨的主張是有下面的部分第一個最重要的是如果根據負表三的情況因為大家知道在107年的時候教職人員的所得替代率已經先砍了20%"},{"start":10709.891,"end":10736.268,"text":"搶來百分之二十之後呢都以三十五年來計算的話那三十五年計算的話呢就會發現到是我現在先說現在的這個是退休在一百零七年實施之前所以這些人事實上都比目前的人都要還要更年紀又更大他的退休的這個時間包括事實上的年齡都已經是更大可能就已經是七八十歲以上了所以他的這個需求更大那我們如果以"},{"start":10737.729,"end":10747.138,"text":"這個負表3 你來看的話呢35年的退休的那個年資的情況呢 從75呢一直降降降 降到現在是第6年"},{"start":10749.434,"end":10753.857,"text":"第六年的情況已經到達114年的之後是66%如果以25年的年資的情況它從60%算起它到現在就變成51.8%當15年的話它事實上當初是45%現在已經砍到36%那這36%的所得替代率其實跟大家也都知道在"},{"start":10774.89,"end":10784.014,"text":"公教人員的部分他是最終的一個給付制我們也知道他給付制就是他付多少就要比多少那他現在的付的部分如果我們以一個限職的人來講的話他每個月的部分要交的在退府的部分就是已經達到的是5043元的這個情況"},{"start":10797.72,"end":10799.78,"text":"這個情況就比勞退工人的勞退事實上都沒有繳勞退是零他自己繳了比工人多了5,043塊錢的這個狀況之下他甚至包括他年功保證繳的這部分加起來的話他一個月將近要繳7,000塊錢可是勞工這部分他包括這部分只要1,145包括加上勞保可是他勞退都零"},{"start":10824.545,"end":10836.876,"text":"那這個幾乎是說他就是大概有6%6比1的這樣的一個比例那這種情況之下就算說現在的一個因為剛才說的所得替代率已經降到的是15年資的"},{"start":10839.999,"end":10859.471,"text":"15年年資36%這已經都是到低於一半的這個情況那35年的年資的部分剛剛說年紀又更大所以他只到66%甚至現在的話更少所以在這種情況之下呢應該他給複製是合理的因此我們在中央市我們的條件上面還在說我們從今年開始我們並沒有回復到原狀這是我們的主張 謝謝"},{"start":10863.226,"end":10872.96,"text":"好謝謝那接下來這個案子是不是我們就可以直接好那就請張雅玲委員發言好"},{"start":10876.52,"end":10897.769,"text":"我想可能還是要再來強調一次就是說我想根據教育部估算就是修法將會至少要減少1242億元的挹注金額而且會導致我們的退伏基金提早兩到三年用慶我覺得還是要再去強調因為剛剛一直不停的蘇秉偉一直在強調這個所得替代率的問題可是實務上"},{"start":10899.81,"end":10926.725,"text":"114年我们的退休公教人员的所得再强调一次公务人员就是50656元退休教师也有57973元警察是53291元可是我们现在劳工只有平均薪资只有46450元其实相对来说我们一般的大众来说还是蛮不错的一个薪资而且我今天我觉得公教人员很辛苦老师很辛苦"},{"start":10927.245,"end":10941.723,"text":"但是當年所有的經濟奇蹟是所有台灣人不分勞工不分公教一起拼出來的所有人都應該被好好的照顧所以呢如果說我們現在要停侃我們就要停止喔"},{"start":10943.308,"end":10967.922,"text":"我們現在只要你是60歲以下的人你都會受影響而這些錢這些要撥補的錢是誰來支付的是所有我們的還在工作的人不管你今天是公交人員不管你今天是納稅人是我們所有人都要去負擔這一筆非常高額的撥補金額而且也要再去強調一點就是說我們的這個"},{"start":10973.502,"end":10987.255,"text":"現在我們的數據來看如果要維持退撫基金在原來134年不用勤的狀況之下如果停止下降所得替代率我們接下來在10年還要再增加1600億的撥補金額也就是"},{"start":10990.959,"end":11018.746,"text":"所有的人對所有的民眾都是非常不公平的一件事情我要懇請我們的國民黨跟民眾黨的委員請為我們的下一代來好好想一想請為我們所有的年輕人來好好想一想請為孩子們來想一想我認為改革如果要改革就是要持續的去推動而不是退回舊制如果停止了調降替代率就會讓我們基金提前破產"},{"start":11020.226,"end":11040.953,"text":"這個是事實我覺得大家必須要來面對事實務實的討論然後呢我們這個如果我們會讓我們的基金提前破產而且也會讓我們的財務風險去轉嫁給我們的下一代所以還是要請大家一起來務實的來面對我們的現實狀況就是這樣並沒有說這個"},{"start":11046.943,"end":11070.796,"text":"年改就是這個年改如果停止下來應該這樣講就是說如果年改停止下來這真的是所有人都要去承擔的一件事情謝謝好 謝謝那麼現在第37條的委員都已經發言完畢那列席機關代表還要發言嗎"},{"start":11071.889,"end":11081.301,"text":"好不需要好那麼就該條討論就到此結束那麼我們現在就做成決議第三十七條及附表三含修正動議一決議一併保留"},{"start":11084.229,"end":11110.579,"text":"那接下來我們就進行第38條的逐條討論那麼有委員賴世寶等29人提案委員張志倫等19人提案委員黃建斌等16人提案委員黃國昌張祺凱等6人所提修正動議委員翁曉琳等3人所提修正動議那現在進行逐條討論那麼發言的委員首先先請"},{"start":11114.027,"end":11119.14,"text":"先請張祺凱委員好了好好好那就先請郭育晴委員"},{"start":11121.311,"end":11143.818,"text":"好 針對第38條我想這個現行制度已經是經過最專業的一個精算了那真的不要讓年金改革走回頭路那也不要走到這個破產的老路那我覺得這個部分真的是大家最擔心也最關心也最憂心的不應該要讓政治的這個壓力來凌駕這個專業的精算的機制"},{"start":11144.878,"end":11169.273,"text":"那第38條呢其實他的精神喔他實際是在保障這個基金的永續那不是在強調這個政治的利益啦那現在說要這個凍結調整其實就是讓這個制度回到改革之前那目前呢從113年到162年之間我們的財務缺口其實已經預計要高達6.66兆那如果政府沒有裁員請問"},{"start":11171.534,"end":11198.325,"text":"沒有財源要怎麼辦當然就全民買單啊每個人的稅可能要多繳啊這不是就很簡單的一個道理嗎我再講一次喔 這個不是不照顧而是要照顧得更長久那勞保其實也有撥補的壓力啦那如果我剛剛之前在大體討論的時候我已經講過了如果如退府也要放水勞保也有撥補的壓力 兩邊都要破產那最後到底是誰來救"},{"start":11200.356,"end":11202.469,"text":"再講一次 到底是誰來救"},{"start":11203.82,"end":11230.743,"text":"那我就再問一次這個問題你要不要讓你多繳的稅去補別人的退休金要不要如果願意大家都可以那當然沒話講可是我相信應該大部分的人都不希望讀後某個特定的族群再強調一次那這個全部報告也很清楚基金會在會提前到前四年的用完"},{"start":11231.884,"end":11245.595,"text":"我想這個未來20年我們要撥補的4460億是全民要大家一起共同來買單喔那如果剛剛沒有聽清楚的我再講一次喔我用112年度的一個繳稅的人口697萬人來"},{"start":11249.277,"end":11274.51,"text":"做這樣子的一個比例換算等於平均每一個繳稅的國民要多繳六萬三好 那再問一次你要不要讓你自己多繳的稅去幫別人負擔他的退休金啊好 以上那接下來是民進黨的委員就一併兩位一起講還是要交叉好 交叉好 那就請張綺凱委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":11278.479,"end":11304.619,"text":"根據這個政府這邊提供的這個資料明確的看到已經砍過頭了我們的退休的這個教育人員如果是服務滿35年已經被砍了三分之一了他們現在的退休所得替代只剩下66%如果你是服務只有30年只剩下60%了如果服務15年現在只剩下"},{"start":11309.002,"end":11332.04,"text":"37.5%剛講財政變好了不要再犧牲跟霸凌我們的公教人員我剛給他看是非常明確的砍了三分之以上了真的不要再砍了讓他們有尊嚴可以在最後的一個人生的這個過程裡面奉獻了國家一輩子他們現在很多人最需要應該是醫療那個支出是非常大的現在通膨又這麼嚴重物價上漲得這麼高"},{"start":11336.689,"end":11359.722,"text":"請為他們一輩子的付出給予肯定給他們有尊嚴的晚年那剛剛我們的吳石瑤不要講你吳兆瑤你吳老師你剛講說這個不是萬老師啦吳老師啦吳老師剛拿那個手板你根本就是誤導民眾啊你講兩層你剛用的時間點第一層第一層的時間點根本完全就弄錯啦你講宮保挹注了"},{"start":11363.322,"end":11390.993,"text":"五千億是從什麼時候開始國民黨執政開始民國八十八年到現在為止你說你講你講對那你講你們民進黨最近的勞工的補助你講了對我要跟你講你哪邊造謠哪邊不對聽我講我跟你講請不要插嘴你剛講公保這第一層的公保已經補了五千億那是時間拉得非常長國民黨執政的八十八年開始那現在短短的幾年"},{"start":11392.165,"end":11399.427,"text":"民進黨最近這幾年補助勞工是多少5,170億欸你把時間一個長時間一個短時間現在更嚴重的對嘛我就說你忽略了那個時間點嘛你故意把一個短時間跟一個長時間放在怎麼會多時間先暫停一下我算給他聽好不好"},{"start":11421.826,"end":11433.162,"text":"妳 妳知道 妳知道勞工 勞工最近這一年一年是1300億欸妳知道妳剛剛妳們無私亞拿出來的公保是多少一年200億200比1300兩個多喔"},{"start":11435.325,"end":11463.99,"text":"差六倍簡單的數學都沒弄懂好 更嚴重的是什麼更嚴重的是更嚴重 連時間長短都弄錯了更重要的要依法行政第二層第二層來剛剛第一層的已經把它更正過了第二層更重要第二層就是要依法行政我剛才講那麼多次了中間那邊剛剛承認了嘛有十種法案裡面講的就是要依法包袱嘛我們的"},{"start":11464.73,"end":11492.387,"text":"我們的公教退補基金就是不能不會也不可以破產法律上就明定你要第一個基金不足的時候要做什麼事情調整費率最近也調了從12%調到15%更重要後面提一個政府要負責撥補那他怎麼會怎麼會破產呢更重要的因為勞保已經在那邊了勞工的撥補是一個成功的那為什麼"},{"start":11494.244,"end":11504.42,"text":"公教人員對不起你們是不是為什麼一定要叫他破產你明明可以不要叫他破產你為什麼要對不起五十幾萬人辛辛苦苦的一輩子五十幾萬人然後對不起他們的家庭咧好"},{"start":11508.663,"end":11536.882,"text":"好啦 最後我只是要強調啦我們要強調的是世代是要共榮的每個家庭裡面不是只有公教人員啦都有勞工的啦我們也做了我不知道民進黨的這個民調從哪邊來我們民眾黨做了這個大型的這個民調清清楚楚啊年輕人勞工也支持這次再停砍因為真的已經刀刀劍骨這年度太多了啦而且沒有要回溯欸不是說要回到以前是砍了三分之一以後停下來而已喔"},{"start":11538.041,"end":11554.358,"text":"請民進黨多一點社會的這個和諧讓世代是可以共融的不要在自己的這個島上撥到這個台灣來的愛我們的台灣啊你在歷史在我們的內部去製造敵人製造對立跟撕裂這是對台灣是好的嗎謝謝好 謝謝那接下來請吳思耀委員發言"},{"start":11560.847,"end":11585.083,"text":"這應該是我今天最後一次能夠發言的機會大家可以去看看今天全城大各黨的發言所謂的撕裂、仇恨、冷血、霸凌、踐踏這些詞彙今天都來自於在野黨的委員民進黨的委員今天沒有任何人用這種形容詞而且是比較負面的言詞在對待今天的討論不管是大體或是主條"},{"start":11586.244,"end":11606.913,"text":"那我也要回應江啟凱委員你們民眾黨真的是理性務實科學嗎剛剛我在你面前一個字一個字寫給你看念給你聽就是你剛剛自己打臉自己我說的就完全是一模一樣的東西啊你是耳朵有問題還是眼睛有問題我這張可以送給你看清楚回去做功課"},{"start":11608.234,"end":11630.76,"text":"民眾黨真的不要為了政治利益而背棄了一整個年輕世代你們是年輕人挺起家的政黨真的不要踐踏世代正義幾位委員在說的砍到見骨砍到見血我們都沒有人想要虧待任何在台灣生活努力怕病的國人"},{"start":11631.772,"end":11648.29,"text":"但是我們要看看以今天的來 請注意聽今天的教育人員我手上拿的是教育人員的這一本昨天是公務人員的這一本兩相比較我們可以更清楚的看到我們就以"},{"start":11649.542,"end":11661.674,"text":"最後一欄也就是在年改如果完成的118年來比較我們教育人員領的中位數的退休縫是6510065000"},{"start":11666.345,"end":11694.652,"text":"然後最高金額在118年可以領到98058九萬八千元這都遠高於昨天的公務人員還更高八九千元以上這樣子的金額一個月五萬 六萬 八萬 九萬這個是難以維持基本生活這是砍到箭鼓嗎大家好好去思考這個問題"},{"start":11696.874,"end":11714.284,"text":"真的好好去思考退休金的制度是维持基本生活所需如果七万八万以上今天我们的政部长已经清楚的说限制85%的教育人员退休奉是五万以上年改维持下去如果持续进行"},{"start":11715.405,"end":11737.462,"text":"有69%的老師們退休後可以領5萬以上而月退的平均在老師是5.8萬元我們就讓數字來說話當然我們最重視的我一直說不要重退休輕限職因為我們要擴大保障對於限職老師的福利"},{"start":11738.263,"end":11756.071,"text":"所以我們要解決志強委員一直很在乎我們的人力如果教師沒有辦法補足公務人員如果流失怎麼辦所以我們這幾年來教育部在國教的部分我們想方設法在增加老師的福利待遇爭取中的"},{"start":11756.551,"end":11775.099,"text":"更有要為各個主管的職務加擠都能夠整併為兩級讓大家可以增加現行的五千八千可以取其高的那個等就是八千元一個月我們現在努力在爭取在導師費的部分我們也在努力爭取中要為每一個國教的導師可以爭取每個月多三千元這是現在進行式請在野黨的委員可以支持"},{"start":11781.141,"end":11796.901,"text":"在高校對現役老師的部分我們在107年上錄了玉山計畫彈性的調心有效的希望能夠提高教授的學術研究加幾10%這是新的制度"},{"start":11797.802,"end":11816.456,"text":"执政之后努力做的107年教授学术家籍研究家籍多10%112年我们也努力的推动了教研人员的待遇计划更是在113年上路整体的教师学术研究家籍调整了在up 15%"},{"start":11818.337,"end":11844.259,"text":"我知道這些做的可能都不夠但是我們在有限的國家資源裡頭對於國教對於高教的現職老師努力的給予他們更合理更有競爭力的一個待遇這才是國家對待照顧 疼惜 珍惜我們的現職教育人員的方法而絕不是從錯誤的地方下手"},{"start":11845.68,"end":11866.133,"text":"從提高對於已退休者的權益其實你犧牲的是現役的教育人員他們可能未來退休金領不到的這個災難跟代價所以最後一次發言我希望八年前八年前我們的國會花了一整年討論年改"},{"start":11868.311,"end":11891.713,"text":"八年後的今天我們只花了兩天加起來時間不過一天的時間就要讓改革走回頭路八年前我們花了一年討論八年後改革走回頭路我們花不到一天的時間這是這一屆立法院交出來的成績單碼我們要共同對跨世代跨行業的國人負責"},{"start":11894.414,"end":11909.588,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請王洪威委員發言好 謝謝主席我們現在就是以在38條它其實很多重點都是包含它是什麼時候開始停產年金這個版本裡面有從113年開始終止試用也有從114年後再終止試用"},{"start":11921.379,"end":11933.739,"text":"所以这个也算是我们在这一次的公教年改里面一个非常精髓的法案我们最近大家讨论这么多我必须去回应也就是说"},{"start":11935.149,"end":11959.923,"text":"剛才比如吳士耀委員說今天所有什麼霸凌什麼就是這些字眼通通都是我們民進黨的委員都沒有談到他都忘記昨天了昨天是怎麼樣去談論的其實我一開始開宗明義其實我覺得今天不管你是站在正方或反方都不應該去"},{"start":11962.745,"end":11977.839,"text":"造成世代的對立也不要去造成任何一個族群一個世代歸罪於他因為當時去做年金改革也是在於整個的政府財政結果政府違背了對廣大的"},{"start":11979.62,"end":11983.263,"text":"公教人員的承諾我覺得這一點就是當時是基於財政現在已經執行這麼多年下來他可能有一些要去做改變我剛才也特別講到比如說最近的教師荒我覺得這個是國安問題"},{"start":12001.435,"end":12005.637,"text":"這真的是國安問題我也說民進黨的委員也很關心那你范雲自己召開的記者會你找了很多的線上的教師團體結果全國教師產業總工會的理事長林碩傑在現場告訴你的是現在為什麼會有這樣的教師荒其中是錯誤的年改政策你們都不聽喔你們都不需要聽嗎"},{"start":12029.454,"end":12040.583,"text":"如果今天我們對於這樣的一個教師荒除了對於現階段包含薪資也好比如說終點費、教師費、行政費還有教師的尊嚴還有這些年改的問題我們要不要繼續的去執行大家在講說今天好像是什麼世代剝奪感但是不管工、教、人員總有一天他們也會退休"},{"start":12056.513,"end":12060.597,"text":"政府現在怎麼對已退休的這些公教人員未來是不是也同樣或者是更惡劣的方式對待他們他們也在看所以在這邊我們今天做的一些修正第一個現在教師荒的國安問題期待大家一起去努力的解決那我們教師團體已經指出這個問題而我們完全不去重視"},{"start":12084.477,"end":12090.66,"text":"那另外我今天就不再贅述我剛才也講了很多在昨天就是有關於財政的問題財政的問題那我們在其他的部分國營事業也好啦或者其他的這個浪費啦或者莫名其妙的這種一些的預算無限的這種支出"},{"start":12105.339,"end":12130.676,"text":"然後我們是不是也可以在我們可容忍的範圍裡面然後把它這一部分彌補起來這個是可以討論的啊但是民進黨或者是看到昨天還試圖想要拍影片要繼續的要在網路上帶風向繼續的在網路上去罵包含我發言的人或其他發言的人比如昨天吳宗憲發言王宏威發言就要帶風向"},{"start":12132.791,"end":12134.852,"text":"這個是討論事情這是解決問題的方法嗎大罷免結束了結果你們今天面對這樣重要的一個國安問題的討論然後繼續用大罷免這種想要在網路霸凌的方式我覺得適可而止了啦好 以上好 謝謝王宏偉委員的發言那現在第38條"},{"start":12158.943,"end":12174.071,"text":"登記發言的委員以及列席機關的代表都已經不好意思我再重述一遍第38條發言的委員都已經發言完畢了請問列席機關的代表還要發言嗎"},{"start":12175.922,"end":12196.488,"text":"好那就先請再三分鐘發言謝謝我想就像我謝謝有這個機會讓全區部在這兩天都有機會把我們根據精算的狀況跟大家做一個事實的說明剛好這兩條都涉及精算最後一次把一些相關的問題再說明一次我想應該第一個說明是說"},{"start":12198.069,"end":12212.572,"text":"我剛剛已經講過這整個是基金是水庫的問題它源頭都是來自不足而提撥那剛剛有提到說那政府應該要撥補啊政府如果不夠就要撥補那確實政府根據93條因為實施新制"},{"start":12213.496,"end":12227.681,"text":"的缺口也開始提撥提撥到舊的基金裡面去那差別只在於說當初算出來的總金額到底要分一次就給還是分十年給還是分二十年給"},{"start":12228.641,"end":12250.818,"text":"那站在我們的全區部跟公教團體的一個組都會期待說是不是分十年給就好了所以才有那個十年大概三千多億如果你分十年總額就三千多億但如果你分二十年就會四千多億那當然這是行政院做最後的決定他會做整體財政稿但是重點他一定要履行"},{"start":12252.096,"end":12272.207,"text":"退服法的依法撥補的這個責任我想那再回到前面那他撥的純粹是以前不足耳提撥的部分等於是把那個權數役注回給基金役注款本身在我們看來就是一個撥補為什麼因為裡面絕大部分是就是那個18%的優存那18%優存我們就把本金全部還給當事人"},{"start":12277.932,"end":12304.06,"text":"就是說我把本金還給當事人只是說我們把優存的利息存下來再次還給基金所以我們認為那也是一個撥補我想我要清楚地說明這兩個概念那如果回過頭來真的再不夠怎麼辦當然政府可以撥補但是剛剛也有委員提到那就提高匯率啊那我跟各位報告一個這是根據第九次精算的匯率我跟各位報告如果這些未提存的匯率如果真的要完全撥補"},{"start":12305.342,"end":12334.622,"text":"公務人員最高 最適費率要23.73%教育人員要36.06%這不可能嘛我的意思在講說站在我們任何一個人執政不可能會把那個費率提高那麼高因為你沒有那個費率就不可能支撐那一個給付我只要很務實的跟精算報告是這樣講所以才有想說盡量大家不要再把它提早啦我想我是很精確在這樣講因為都是這都是根據精算報告的一個方式來做跟各位報告那精算報告還提到一點"},{"start":12335.682,"end":12351.653,"text":"如果純粹就未來的服務成本未來服務成本就是說現在新進的同仁來講如果他用現在可以領的退休金來算其實他的費率只要大概教育人員 公務人員17%教育人員只要15%所以我們為什麼認為說"},{"start":12353.234,"end":12375.555,"text":"真的那個已退的同仁可以大家一起再忍一下這四年然後一起來注意那忍一下四年剛剛我們有報告月退休金本身平均都五萬塊以上我是來自大學老師我的平均月退休金一定會比五萬塊高所以剛剛我想賴委員提到說我是大學老師你問我"},{"start":12377.15,"end":12402.93,"text":"情感上我也覺得如果不扣最好可是我作為一個整個基金的財務負責人我覺得這個事情就是讓年改繼續走完其實是最好的一個方式那不要忘了我們後面年改走完還有134年以後的114年到162年如果沒有折現財務缺口真的是很可怕我想那實在是一個大的一個基金的缺口我想這應該跟"},{"start":12404.312,"end":12408.219,"text":"前面這兩條的相關 我就一次做一個說明那謝謝主席給我這個時間好 謝謝那麼現在第38條"},{"start":12417.549,"end":12436.068,"text":"這個列席機關代表已經發言完畢了我們就討論就是該條討論到此結束我們現在就做成決議那第三四八條含修正動議一修正動議二那我們決議就一併保留那麼最後就進行第六十七條的主條討論那首先先請"},{"start":12440.641,"end":12459.917,"text":"那么第67条有委员赖世保等20人提案委员柯志恩等18人提案委员徐宇峥等21人提案委员黄建豪等20人提案委员桑志伦等19人提案委员叶元之等20人提案委员翁晓琳等16人提案委员黄建斌等16人提案委员黄美玲等16人提案"},{"start":12460.586,"end":12488.111,"text":"委員黃國昌張啟凱等六人所提修正動議那麼現在就進行逐條討論那麼首先先請周嘉斌委員發言那這樣的話我們就先請劉淑斌委員劉淑斌委員那就請你先發言好謝謝主席今天的六十八條的六十七條的這個修正案那就是針對的目前在相對於在"},{"start":12489.403,"end":12509.291,"text":"老保農保跟國保當中的所造成的一個再次讓教職人員呢最大的一個不公平現象因為在老保剛才說老保農保跟國保當中呢都是出現到是他們隨著累積物就是年金呢是隨著"},{"start":12510.712,"end":12533.125,"text":"物價的累積達到了5%或者是到每4年要去做調整但是在67條的教職人員的部分它是確實加了很多的一個條件就是說還要調整比例由行政院會同考試院考量國家"},{"start":12534.946,"end":12542.491,"text":"經濟環境政府財政與退府基金準備率而定之這樣的一個規定就讓他說即使已經達到了跟相較於其他的剛才另外的三個寶他已經達到了5%的這個要去調整的比例可是卻是因為"},{"start":12552.897,"end":12580.999,"text":"這個前述的剛剛說的條件等等的卻是因此而就是沒有再去做調整這個對於很清楚的對於公立學校的這個教師呢教職員就是非常大的一個歧視的狀況那這個部分的歧視呢不只是在這樣的一個在年金的一個調整的一個物價提出的調整尤其是現在物價上漲又這麼高的情況下更重要的是這個歧視還包括的是在"},{"start":12581.88,"end":12593.323,"text":"我們看到的剛才黃衛委員有提到的是教師人員的一個待遇的部分像正如鍾嘉斌委員之前在總諮詢所說的終點費的部分是30年沒有調了30年沒有調了那包括的是還有一些課程的包括了行政兼職的行政費用或者是偏遠地區的這些費用等等的都沒有調"},{"start":12609.326,"end":12634.967,"text":"那這個情況之下還包括的是後面的退休金現在是因為造成了一個是目前老師的是極度的不滿那也是因為剛才不是讓我有提到說正在進行式的改革也是因為現在已經出現了不只是現職教師反彈現在所涉及的有關於教職人員的部分是應該從就是從現在我"},{"start":12637.769,"end":12654.66,"text":"現在所說的包括前面的38條或是現在的67條來講都是對限職的教師是適用的因此在在這個條件沒有改變的這個情況之下就造成了非常的一個大的嚴重在於說連失陪生失陪生從"},{"start":12656.874,"end":12674.166,"text":"一年前的資料已經顯示出來了是在未來的資料已經顯示出來是在三年內他談到教師證的人他不去參加教師甄選的達到七成那如果以五年的時間來看的話是"},{"start":12676.428,"end":12682.354,"text":"不去拿教師證了但是這個學生呢他合格的教師他不願意進入到職場的則有到四成讓失陪生都沒有辦法去不願意進入到職場的時候就是因為在現場的教師環境非常的差又被不尊重然後現在這個包括了剛才說的這些部分現在才改還在進行是那目前要做退休部分也使用到現在的教師的時候他們當然不願意進入"},{"start":12702.432,"end":12710.218,"text":"那因此就必須要趕快因為這已經是國安的問題在於說沒有台灣的長期以來的優秀包括我們的半導體人才就是在於我們有優秀的教師去培養出來沒有這個優秀的教師怎麼可能會有我們優良的人才作為我們現在作為是全球先進的這個半導體的一個製程讓護國神山的出現因此當教師沒有辦法去維持"},{"start":12728.672,"end":12737.058,"text":"好優良的教師施培生沒有進入的時候是不是造成更大的國安問題我們台灣哪裡能夠維繫到這麼好的一個條件所以這是非常重要的應該是保障現在就開始要做修正因為老師看得清楚到底是誰在進行這樣的一個改革要回復到正常的條件是不是回復到正常而已另外一部分再說現在所造成的問題"},{"start":12749.907,"end":12779.067,"text":"依照的是勞基不管是公職公教人員就是公立學校的教職員的修正上面的93條剛才的全區部的部長是不是四人節先生您剛才有提到這部分是沒錯要去要依照的是精算報告去做調整可是你們在前面一兩年的時候都沒有足額的播主就新制上面的新制上面的他因為因為他改成的變成是自己制他必須他必須要自己去提"},{"start":12780.027,"end":12794.672,"text":"自己去提交提繳自繳的這樣子的一個這個他的這個退休的金的部分有些一定的比例可是很多部分他就沒有在繳了所以這個缺額的部分才是用他會造成提前的一個破產的狀況就是有"},{"start":12795.672,"end":12810.663,"text":"全序部這邊根據精算報告來去進行的第八次跟第八九次報告都有這樣提出來的但是這整個部分包括是整個退休的制度的部分包括勞保的部分為什麼包括的是"},{"start":12811.684,"end":12837.331,"text":"有我們必須講到這個造成很大原因是政府他當初的時候的一個失信於民他當初的部分包括是勞保的部分他說勞退的部分勞退的部分並沒有讓他繳他現在是採取自繳的這樣的一個機率自繳的方式一樣的方式但是這部分因為政府也沒有去撥補到一部分的情況所以導致各個的在隨退休間的方面都出現到的是有缺額的地方那只是很"},{"start":12838.43,"end":12853.781,"text":"目前所造成的情況是勞退的部分是政府補充的是一個完全的一個提撥制他有法律名義可是對在公教人員也造成一個非常大的問題是他是造成是他是最後的"},{"start":12854.602,"end":12875.995,"text":"最後的幾復制可是現在的情況是這有那個差別當初的法法應該是在民進黨執政的時期所造成的這個他他這地方呈現出來是造成了年輕人勞工跟教室人員最大的一個所謂世代跟職業上面差異事實上是因為在制定的時候就是不一樣才會導致了我們現在的"},{"start":12877.576,"end":12903.816,"text":"這樣子的一個問題讓他再沒辦法去有這樣的一個他尤其是給複製他是希望說我當初的繳的錢比勞工多的時候劉委員可能再長話短說好就這樣子就是造成這個那現在又透過貼羞金的這部分就造成這樣的一個差異性的話絕對是要做這個回復他原來公平的對待不要因為人數少就造成一個歧視這是重要因為他涉及到我們的教育人才的培育這是我們國家的根本"},{"start":12905.579,"end":12930.442,"text":"謝謝那接下來請陳培鈺委員發言好謝謝我想還是針對主條來發言啦所以針對67條的部分我要請教在野黨委員我真的很仔細看了各個委員的版本因為確實在67條看起來很多委員對於CPI的調整還有相關數字其實是不滿意的你們認為現在的版本是不夠好的但是我要先提醒目前的版本正負5%或者是4年調整一次"},{"start":12931.303,"end":12949.982,"text":"確實也是穩定這個相關退府基金可以健全的發展往下去看但是你們現在的改法讓我覺得非常的疑惑包含有一個委員的版本非常有趣他的寫法是這樣寫的他說他寫了一個禍字他說在發布日期三個月內予以調整調整的比例由行政院會同考試"},{"start":12950.522,"end":12971.682,"text":"制定公事定之或隨軍公叫加薪比例調整我不知道這個委員的辦公室在想像這個或字放在法律條文裡面到底是要我們行政機關怎麼做事這個是我覺得如果來逐條討論這些委員的版本真的我不知道後續的調整該怎麼做還有有委員談到正3%的時候就要予以調整或"},{"start":12972.302,"end":12997.178,"text":"至少每四年予以檢討我還是看不懂這個貨的寫法到底是要行政機關怎麼做那當然現在相關的調整其實就是四年要檢討還有政府5%都要檢討那這個數字本來就是已經在法律裡面而且確實已經這麼做了在過去幾年當中我們調整已經來到6%所以要拜託在野黨的委員要看到這個數字還是希望可以維持原案"},{"start":12997.598,"end":13011.295,"text":"不要真的做修法的调整那最后我想要回应刚刚前面有好几个委员说的说现在呢这个月退休所得时之没有办法照顾现在的生活我们来看一下最新统计的数字113年"},{"start":13013.277,"end":13033.325,"text":"每個月生活必須就是政府公告的數字我們就看六都就好台北市生活成本最高每個月最基本的必須生活所的個人就一個人大概是兩萬塊左右高雄市一萬四到一萬五新北市一萬六到一萬七台南市一萬四到一萬五桃園市一萬五到一萬六台中市一萬五到一萬六"},{"start":13034.065,"end":13059.185,"text":"而這些是所謂個人基本最基本最基本最基本就是不用特別上餐館我們就講最基本但是對照剛剛已經有很多委員也看見相關的數字是五萬多塊六萬多塊剛剛事務長也講了就情感上他可能也覺得好像可以支持但是就整體的法制還有身為一個主管機關他必須要如實的拜託大家去看這個數字而這個數字是怎麼稱出來的這個數字是"},{"start":13061.327,"end":13079.754,"text":"透過年改後我們好不容易走到今天而不管是相關的撥補或是相關的挹注其實都希望這個制度可以走下去我們後續還要面對破產的問題我們不希望它提早破產我們不希望提早讓大家看見這個困境因為這個困境是誰要面對的其實不是民進黨黨團也不是民進黨政府"},{"start":13082.475,"end":13108.297,"text":"而是全台灣的納稅人我想要拜託在內黨委員我們來看一下去年報稅目前是644萬戶納稅人而這些納稅人現在如果看到你們這個提案他們心裡作何感想他們現在辛苦納稅的錢要去支持你們所想像的特殊族群你們的特殊條法就只是希望他們的所謂退休金可以再往上提高那你們說這個不是倒退的列車你們認為只是"},{"start":13109.818,"end":13118.923,"text":"你們認為這是停車但是我不知道但是我不知道你們認為這個只是stop herejust stop here的主席可不可以讓我講完我剛按錯請王委員先讓陳委員把話說完我剛才講"},{"start":13138.536,"end":13160.5,"text":"提高破產的威脅好嗎所以我要講你們我說不要往上提高造成破產的威脅我一直在講的是整個年金的制度還有整個系統所以我要講的是我昨天一直說這是一個倒退的列車那如果在黨委員認為你們只是just stop"},{"start":13161.72,"end":13183.907,"text":"剛剛賴時寶委員也說了那這個停車到底會造成什麼困境我認為全序部已經講得非常的清楚所以我想我最後的反應就停在這邊我剛說提高是造成破產的威脅這件事情因為昨天王委員你自己也說了他們也如實的告訴你兩千多萬然後只是提早四年但是我認為這個困境是我們大家要共同面對的並不是只有民進黨團或是民進黨政府好 謝謝"},{"start":13185.882,"end":13203.868,"text":"好 謝謝那我們就先處理會議時間上午的會議就繼續進行到議程所列事項及所有的都處理完畢為止好 那麼接下來就是機關代表還要發言嗎那鄭部長需要發言嗎好 OK那我們就是這一條就是第67條"},{"start":13207.149,"end":13231.341,"text":"發言的委員以及列席機關代表都已經發言完畢然後該條就討論結束現在我們就做成決議第67條含修正動議決議就一併保留那本案逐條都已經處理完畢那做以下宣告第一就是本案審查完據擬據審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":13234.827,"end":13253.429,"text":"那麼第二就是本案必須交由黨團協商第三就是院會討論時由翁召集委員小林出席說明那麼條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語就授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":13256.141,"end":13273.817,"text":"我們是反對全案送出委員會還是保留委員會要透過委員會的協商程序那麼針對全案審訊送出委員會的決議有沒有意義 有意義既然有意義的話我們就進行表決現在就採用舉手表決那表決之前我們先清點在場人數"},{"start":13283.095,"end":13309.742,"text":"再算一遍因為有些委員可能不是教文跟司法委員會的委員在場出席委員在場出席委員17人不喊主席17人再確認一次"},{"start":13323.892,"end":13331.017,"text":"我再宣告一次在場出席委員17人是不含主席的那麼我們就現在開始表決贊成討論"},{"start":13333.939,"end":13360.02,"text":"贊成議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊之後必須交協商送院會的決議贊成者請舉手好 那麼請放下贊成者12位好"},{"start":13362.315,"end":13371.823,"text":"可是因為我們剛剛已經進入表決了那麼反對者請舉手反對者總共五位委員"},{"start":13381.894,"end":13407.398,"text":"因為後續的來的就是因為秀華委員在主持教育委員會他在主持教育委員會可是我們剛剛清點人數已經清點了17位因為他在主持教育委員會所以呢反對的話就是我們提重複表決再讓我們召委可以表決好不好先請發下好了那我們就再重新清點在場人數一次從現在開始之後進來的委員就不算了"},{"start":13410.592,"end":13435.928,"text":"好 總共18位在場出席委員18人那我們現在開始表決贊成議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊後須交協商送院會的決議的委員那麼贊成者請舉手好 請放下"},{"start":13437.7,"end":13463.853,"text":"贊成委員12位反對者請舉手請放下反對委員6位我們表決結果舉手表決的表決結果在場出席18人贊成者12位反對者6位贊成者多數過半本案通過議程討論事項足條保留全案審訊之後就會送院會"},{"start":13470.325,"end":13492.815,"text":"還是有草野協商啊還是草野協商啊還是要送協商啊對不對 這個請加注因為這樣會造成誤解好 我再宣告一點就是省郡但是是保留議程討論事項主條保留議程討論事項主條保留全案省郡須交草野協商送院會"},{"start":13497.503,"end":13526.296,"text":"好的 那麼現在有羅志強委員等人有提出復議的動議那麼我們請議事人員宣讀提案內容案有針對第十一屆第四會議司法及法治教育及文化委員會第二次聯席會議討論四項著作之各項決議提出復議並請立即處理事有當 慶請空決提案委員羅志強 葉元之 劉淑彬 林倩琪 王王威 宣讀完畢好 請問在場委員有沒有異議"},{"start":13527.912,"end":13548.138,"text":"好 那有異議的話我們就進行表決那我們也是採舉手表決那表決前先清點在場出席委員人數好 在場出席委員18位那麼我們就現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手贊成什麼贊成復議動議贊成復議動議贊成復議案的請舉手"},{"start":13560.575,"end":13569.82,"text":"好 請放下贊成的有6位委員那反對的請舉手反對的委員請舉手反對動議的委員請舉手好 請放下反對者有12位"},{"start":13580.064,"end":13597.28,"text":"副議案的表決結果在場出席委員18人贊成者6人反對者12人贊成者少數不通過副議案不通過仍然維持原決議也就是議程討論事項各條保留全案審訊必須交協商送院會處理好"},{"start":13600.427,"end":13612.996,"text":"那么本次的议程所列的事项都已经处理完毕了会议进行到此结束那非常谢谢大家今天整个上午的配合那现在散会就谢谢大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}