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做得到嗎做得到嗎 次長 做得到嗎就不可能嘛我們要負責任務實的對國庫負責對人民負責看國家之愷做不到的拿著刀子掐著教育部的脖子怎麼做呢 夏業"},{"start":212.694,"end":229.444,"text":"今天的國教法事實上中央地方是各有權責跟分工的立委修法很簡單把義務教育從6歲6改成5改一個字可是你們要整個大變動"},{"start":231.229,"end":253.424,"text":"然後呢更在第四條加了一項學前教育所需經費由中央政府編列預算之意只要加幾個字全部的五到六歲這一年全部中央買單立委修法很簡單但是立委來凌駕行政部門的權力"},{"start":255.799,"end":278.655,"text":"做得到吗下一页次长您跟我前一任我们都是立法会员教会会2023年国民教育法修正您也在审查的现场那个时候我们讨论过非常多次对不对好几次的会议严谨的讨论国民教育法我们完成了历年最大幅度的一次国教法的修正范围非常的广"},{"start":279.395,"end":294.087,"text":"那個時候也有委員提出2023年就提出國教要向下延伸當時教育部門跟立法部門也召開過很多公聽會我們最後踩了煞車因為"},{"start":294.927,"end":323.58,"text":"法源的依據要更完備師資的培育目前還做不到組織人士要精進還需要很多的資源而課綱的制定遷移法而動全身經費的編列中央跟地方如何分擔也沒有定見這五大問題今天2026年又要審這個法了這五個問題哪一個解決了還是完全都還沒有共識"},{"start":325.155,"end":349.947,"text":"就是我要跟委員報告其實在2023年我們在修法的時候其實都遇到很多問題那事實上這些問題都當時提出來了嘛那你現在往下延伸這個到五歲其實可能大家會誤解好像我們反對延伸到五歲好像是不照顧幼兒教育那事實上我們是配合少子女化政策對策其實我們從105學年度開始就不斷在擴大公共化幼兒園的名額就在這裡"},{"start":351.388,"end":370.931,"text":"我們並沒有因為2023年沒有接受向下延伸就不做事我們反而加碼的針對0到6歲國家一起養每年國家挹注685億在幼兒跟教保的措施減少家長的負擔增加學生"},{"start":371.792,"end":397.618,"text":"的這些幼兒的學習的品質提升嗎您剛剛要解釋的就在這裡嗎我們擴大公立非營利總共幼兒園的設施有36.5萬名幼生受惠每年國家加碼投入505億而在念私校或是在家自己帶的20.5萬名幼生我們另外也給予育兒津貼每年國家也"},{"start":398.458,"end":412.751,"text":"投入了180亿当国库能够负担国家行有余力我们想方设法再把教保的措施做得更完善这就是现行的政策下一页"},{"start":414.181,"end":429.953,"text":"而我看到委員提案雖然只改一個字可是教育現場就會雞飛狗跳我們這10年間逐步的提升我們的公共化的教保不管是公立幼兒園10年增加217所"},{"start":431.514,"end":446.58,"text":"非營利幼兒園10年增加399所都是要人力物力空間而且有非常多跟公司部門的協調我們努力穩健的做到這是這10年間我們的成果對不對"},{"start":448.081,"end":462.455,"text":"所以我們擔心啊增設幼兒園立委只改一個字把六歲改成五歲國民教育就向下延伸了立委們難道認為增設幼兒園是變魔術嗎改個字就可以做到嗎"},{"start":464.232,"end":491.377,"text":"如果以現在委員所提出的向下延伸一年到五歲的話要增加1431班對不對如果有的委員更進一步延伸到三到五歲那麼要增加14356班你們有算過嗎如果以剛剛我們十年增加616所1616校班我們要花多少錢才能夠到位啊"},{"start":492.868,"end":518.662,"text":"這需要花時間啊不是變魔術啊所以說在教學端課程綱要教材審定師資培育跟教學評量都要重新配套行政端校舍空間人事行政經費分工跟學區的分發也需要給教育部門完整的時間去做配套這些問題都不能視而不見喔"},{"start":519.702,"end":539.64,"text":"你们多久时间可以完整的提出尽可能尽可能完备的这些准备工作的报告呢七天七天做得到啊七天我们刚才有委员询问我们七天把它盘点出来但你们七天也可能只是回应说这些部分现在都很难达成吗"},{"start":540.28,"end":556.631,"text":"我們會把其實剛才又委員提到說這個向下也是到五歲我們開始有課綱那很多我們也在重視學科學習會不會因為這樣子造成幼兒學習的壓力就進入到學校這個其實是另外一個觀點這個我們也會來評估好"},{"start":558.917,"end":586.375,"text":"七天给报告是可以的但不代表七天就可以让向下延伸好像有明确的方向不是我们是七天给大家资料说我们遇到什么问题过去的评估怎么样现在新的观点怎么样让大家更清楚的知道甚至国际上很多国家我们委员提到了他们执行的状况我们现在其实比较正确的方向是要减轻负担增加生意这是现在我们政策的做法最后一页我们看这一页来下一页"},{"start":587.336,"end":606.482,"text":"我更要挑戰就在教育文化委員會上上週修了幼照法要求把私立幼兒園自己帶的全部提高津貼每個月1.5萬到2萬意思是這些私校的在家自己帶的國庫來補貼"},{"start":608.803,"end":629.939,"text":"然後準公共幼兒園也全部免費政府負擔現在今天又來修國教法把五歲的那一端全部變成中央買單那很奇怪啊剛修的幼教法跟今天的國教法不就是自己邏輯錯亂自相矛盾嗎幼教法是要政府用擴大補貼的方式補給家長"},{"start":631.52,"end":660.608,"text":"然後現在來修國教法全部國家買單那我不曉得審查之後那這兩個法的這些競合衝突怎麼解決你們有看到這個問題嗎我們當然知道我們覺得這個部分真的要審慎評估沒有辦法什麼都用補貼或者是所以我們非常理性跟嚴謹的來呼籲教育現場的需要"},{"start":661.368,"end":683.165,"text":"教育品質的提升我們有多元的政策然後逐步的來做成那立委對於義務教育向下延伸stakeholders彼此的意見我們需要跟更多的社會層面來對話我們要嚴謹的面對大家繼續的強化論述不能夠倉促修法造成教育現場的大混亂好 繼續加油 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:45:57+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:00.226750+08:00","text":"請張廖次長，彭署長也一起。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:00.226750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:03.453500+08:00","text":"有請次長及彭署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:03.453500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:06.680250+08:00","text":"謝謝，委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:06.680250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:09.907000+08:00","text":"大家辛苦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:09.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:27.657000+08:00","text":"國教向下延伸是茲事體大的，配套夠不夠、財源在哪裡都要謹慎、理性地來討論，如果倉促貿然的上路，恐怕教育現場是未蒙其利先受其害，所以我認為國教向下延伸有這麼急嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:29.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:46:40.192000+08:00","text":"立法院最急的是我們的總預算，在我們文化、運動部門的預算沒有完成審竣前，我還是每一天都會提醒。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:46:41.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:47:04.735000+08:00","text":"304天的拖延，甚至在教文會，伍麗華召委所排的教育部在5月18號就審完了，今天是6月29號，同樣是教委會，不同的召委，對於預算的排審可以差1個月又11天，我認為非不行也，不為也！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:47:06.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:47:18.302000+08:00","text":"立委不審預算，卻一再的透過修法來增加很多教育現場的制度大變革，沒有預算怎麼進行政策的調整呢？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:47:19.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:47:24.905000+08:00","text":"立委加碼的去撒幣，但預算不通過又怎麼有錢花呢？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:47:25.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:48:30.510000+08:00","text":"我一樣會不厭其煩地來統計教文會的委員慷國家之慨，無視於財政紀律法、無視於預算法、無視於憲法權力分立的原則，光這個會期的錢坑法案，包括學貸三法每年要求中央增加負擔少則100億、多則400億；營養午餐法少則138億、多則無法算計；幼照法要求中央全額增加支出，每年400億到600億；今天的國教法如果又倉促的快轉過水，那麼每年至少要再增加100億，而一次性的空間硬體的增加支出是至少80億，所以A加B加C加D，就是這一個會期教文會立委競相加碼大撒幣的錢坑法案，加總起來教育部一年要增加至少738億到1,238億的支出。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:48:37.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:48:46.707000+08:00","text":"次長，您知道在財劃法通過之後，教育部本部的預算減少了多少嗎？800億。892億！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:48:46.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:05.574000+08:00","text":"在財劃法之後，教育部自己的預算等於是被立法委員砍除了892億，而現在立委片面的加碼就要你們每年增加國庫738到1,238億的支出，怎麼做？","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:05.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:07.676000+08:00","text":"做得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:07.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:08.937000+08:00","text":"做得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:08.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:12.840000+08:00","text":"次長，做得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:12.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:13.840000+08:00","text":"以目前的財務是不可能做到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:12.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:13.721000+08:00","text":"就不可能嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:14.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:49:27.893000+08:00","text":"我們要負責任，務實的對國庫負責、對人民負責，慷國家之慨，做不到的，拿著刀子掐著教育部的脖子，怎麼做呢？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:49:29.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:50:03.559000+08:00","text":"今天排審的國教法，事實上中央地方是各有權責跟分工的，立委修法很簡單，把義務教育從6歲的「六」改成「五」，改一個字，可是你們要整個大變動，然後更在第四條加了一項「前項學前教育所需經費由中央政府編列預算支應」，只要加幾個字，5到6歲這一年全部中央買單。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:50:03.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:50:13.139000+08:00","text":"立委修法很簡單，但是立委凌駕了行政部門的權力，做得到嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:50:14.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:50:24.707000+08:00","text":"次長，您跟我在前一任都是立法委員，教委會2023年修正國民教育法，您也在審查的現場，那個時候我們討論過非常多次，對不對？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:50:25.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:18.579000+08:00","text":"好幾次的會議嚴謹的討論國民教育法，我們完成了歷年最大幅度的國教法修正，範圍非常的廣，在2023年那個時候也有委員提出國教要向下延伸，當時教育部門跟立法部門也召開過很多公聽會，我們最後踩了煞車，因為法源依據要更完備、師資培育當時還做不到、組織人事精進還需要很多資源、課綱的制定牽一髮而動全身，以及經費編列中央跟地方如何分擔也沒有定見等五大問題，今天2026年又要審這個法了，這五個問題哪一個解決了？","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:19.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:20.580000+08:00","text":"還是完全都還沒有共識？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:22.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:29.079000+08:00","text":"我要跟委員報告，其實2023年我們修法的時候遇到了很多問題，事實上……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:29.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:30.939000+08:00","text":"這些問題當時都提出來了嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:32.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:46.787000+08:00","text":"對，現在往下延伸到5歲，其實可能大家會誤解，好像我們反對延伸到5歲就是不照顧幼兒教育，事實上我們是配合少子女化對策，其實我們從105學年度開始就不斷在擴大公共化幼兒園的名額。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:46.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:51:46.947000+08:00","text":"就在這裡！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:51:48.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:52:15.554000+08:00","text":"我們並沒有因為2023年沒有接受向下延伸就不做事，我們反而加碼的針對0到6歲國家一起養，每年國家挹注685億在幼兒跟教保的措施，減少家長的負擔，增加這些幼兒學習品質的提升，您剛剛要解釋的就在這裡嘛！","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:52:15.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:52:16.554000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:52:15.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:52:35.999000+08:00","text":"我們擴大公立、非營利、準公共幼兒園的設施，有36.5萬名幼生受惠，每年國家加碼投入505億；對於讀私校或是家長在家自己帶的20.5萬名幼生，我們另外也給予育兒津貼，每年國家也投入了180億。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:52:38.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:52:56.465000+08:00","text":"當國庫能夠負擔，國家行有餘力，我們想方設法再把教保的措施做得更完善，這就是現行的政策，而我看到委員的提案，雖然只改一個字，可是教育現場就會雞飛狗跳。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:52:57.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:53:23.580000+08:00","text":"我們這十年間逐步地提升公共化的教保，不管是公立幼兒園十年增加217所、非營利幼兒園十年增加399所，都是要人力、物力、空間，而且有非常多跟公私部門的協調，我們努力穩健地做到，這是這十年間我們的成果，對不對？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:53:25.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:53:38.074000+08:00","text":"所以我們擔心增設幼兒園，立委只改一個字，把6歲改成5歲，國民教育就向下延伸了，立委們難道認為增設幼兒園是變魔術嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:53:38.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:53:39.455000+08:00","text":"改個字就可以做到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:53:41.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:53:51.274000+08:00","text":"如果以現在委員所提出的向下延伸一年到5歲的話，要增加1,431班，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:53:51.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:53:59.295000+08:00","text":"有的委員更進一步延伸到3到5歲，那麼要增加1萬4,356班，你們有算過嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:53:59.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:08.197000+08:00","text":"如果以剛剛我們十年增加616班來計算，我們要花多少錢才能夠到位？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:09.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:12.590000+08:00","text":"這需要花時間，不是變魔術啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:14.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:44.469000+08:00","text":"在教學端，課程綱要、教材審定、師資培育跟教學評量都要重新配套；在行政端，校舍空間、人事行政、經費分工跟學區分發也需要給教育部門完整的時間去做配套，這些問題都不能視而不見，你們多久時間可以完整地提出儘可能完備這些準備工作的報告呢？7天。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:46.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:46.711000+08:00","text":"7天做得到啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:48.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:50.634000+08:00","text":"剛才也有委員詢問，我們7天把它盤點出來。","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:50.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:54:56.379000+08:00","text":"但你們7天也可能只是回應說這些部分現在都很難達成嘛！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:54:58.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:11.449000+08:00","text":"對，其實剛才也有委員提到，向下延伸到5歲，我們開始有課綱，我們比較重視學科學習，會不會因為這樣子造成幼兒學習的壓力，就進入……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:11.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:12.550000+08:00","text":"對，也衝擊了整個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:12.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:13.471000+08:00","text":"這也是另外一個觀點，這個我們也會來評估。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:13.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:23.562000+08:00","text":"好，7天給報告是可以的，但不代表7天就可以讓向下延伸好像有明確的方向。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:23.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:29.166000+08:00","text":"不是，我們是7天給資料說我們遇到什麼問題、過去的評估怎麼樣、現在新的觀點怎麼樣。","quality":0.514},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:29.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:30.727000+08:00","text":"好，很好，讓大家更清楚地知道。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:30.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:39.013000+08:00","text":"甚至國際上很多國家，委員也有提到的，他們執行的狀況，我們現在其實比較正確的方向是要減輕負擔，增加生育……","quality":0.543},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:39.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:55:40.674000+08:00","text":"對，這是現在我們政策的做法。對。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:55:41.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:56:23.616000+08:00","text":"最後，我更要挑戰，就在教育文化委員會，上上週修了幼照法，要求把就讀私立幼兒園或在家自己帶的，全部提高津貼至每個月1.5萬到2萬，意思是這些讀私校的、在家自己帶的由國庫來補貼，然後準公共幼兒園也全部免費由政府負擔；現在的今天又來修國教法，把5歲的那一端全部變成中央買單，很奇怪啊，剛修的幼照法跟今天要修的國教法不就是自己邏輯錯亂、自相矛盾嗎？","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:56:23.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:56:40.983000+08:00","text":"幼照法是要政府用擴大補貼的方式補給家長，然後現在修國教法又全部要國家買單，我不曉得審查之後，這兩個法的競合、衝突怎麼解決？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:56:40.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:56:42.464000+08:00","text":"你們有看到這個問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:56:42.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:56:52.646000+08:00","text":"我們當然知道，我們也是覺得這個部分真的要審慎評估，沒有辦法什麼都用補貼或者是補助。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:56:53.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:19.504000+08:00","text":"是，所以我們非常理性跟嚴謹地來呼籲，教育現場的需要、教育品質的提升，我們有多元的政策，逐步地來做成，立委對於義務教育向下延伸，stakeholders彼此的意見，我們需要跟更多的社會層面來對話，我們要嚴謹地面對，大家繼續地強化論述，不能夠倉促修法，造成教育現場的大混亂。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"吳委員思瑤","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:19.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:19.964000+08:00","text":"好，繼續加油，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:20.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:20.165000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:20.665000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:22.379286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:22.679286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:25.536429+08:00","text":"下一位有請伍麗華委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時46分）請張廖次長，彭署長也一起。"],["主席：有請次長及彭署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝，委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家辛苦！國教向下延伸是茲事體大的，配套夠不夠、財源在哪裡都要謹慎、理性地來討論，如果倉促貿然的上路，恐怕教育現場是未蒙其利先受其害，所以我認為國教向下延伸有這麼急嗎？立法院最急的是我們的總預算，在我們文化、運動部門的預算沒有完成審竣前，我還是每一天都會提醒。304天的拖延，甚至在教文會，伍麗華召委所排的教育部在5月18號就審完了，今天是6月29號，同樣是教委會，不同的召委，對於預算的排審可以差1個月又11天，我認為非不行也，不為也！","立委不審預算，卻一再的透過修法來增加很多教育現場的制度大變革，沒有預算怎麼進行政策的調整呢？立委加碼的去撒幣，但預算不通過又怎麼有錢花呢？我一樣會不厭其煩地來統計教文會的委員慷國家之慨，無視於財政紀律法、無視於預算法、無視於憲法權力分立的原則，光這個會期的錢坑法案，包括學貸三法每年要求中央增加負擔少則100億、多則400億；營養午餐法少則138億、多則無法算計；幼照法要求中央全額增加支出，每年400億到600億；今天的國教法如果又倉促的快轉過水，那麼每年至少要再增加100億，而一次性的空間硬體的增加支出是至少80億，所以A加B加C加D，就是這一個會期教文會立委競相加碼大撒幣的錢坑法案，加總起來教育部一年要增加至少738億到1,238億的支出。次長，您知道在財劃法通過之後，教育部本部的預算減少了多少嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：800億。"],["吳委員思瑤：892億！在財劃法之後，教育部自己的預算等於是被立法委員砍除了892億，而現在立委片面的加碼就要你們每年增加國庫738到1,238億的支出，怎麼做？做得到嗎？做得到嗎？次長，做得到嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：以目前的財務是不可能做到。"],["吳委員思瑤：就不可能嘛！我們要負責任，務實的對國庫負責、對人民負責，慷國家之慨，做不到的，拿著刀子掐著教育部的脖子，怎麼做呢？","今天排審的國教法，事實上中央地方是各有權責跟分工的，立委修法很簡單，把義務教育從6歲的「六」改成「五」，改一個字，可是你們要整個大變動，然後更在第四條加了一項「前項學前教育所需經費由中央政府編列預算支應」，只要加幾個字，5到6歲這一年全部中央買單。立委修法很簡單，但是立委凌駕了行政部門的權力，做得到嗎？","次長，您跟我在前一任都是立法委員，教委會2023年修正國民教育法，您也在審查的現場，那個時候我們討論過非常多次，對不對？好幾次的會議嚴謹的討論國民教育法，我們完成了歷年最大幅度的國教法修正，範圍非常的廣，在2023年那個時候也有委員提出國教要向下延伸，當時教育部門跟立法部門也召開過很多公聽會，我們最後踩了煞車，因為法源依據要更完備、師資培育當時還做不到、組織人事精進還需要很多資源、課綱的制定牽一髮而動全身，以及經費編列中央跟地方如何分擔也沒有定見等五大問題，今天2026年又要審這個法了，這五個問題哪一個解決了？還是完全都還沒有共識？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我要跟委員報告，其實2023年我們修法的時候遇到了很多問題，事實上……"],["吳委員思瑤：這些問題當時都提出來了嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，現在往下延伸到5歲，其實可能大家會誤解，好像我們反對延伸到5歲就是不照顧幼兒教育，事實上我們是配合少子女化對策，其實我們從105學年度開始就不斷在擴大公共化幼兒園的名額。"],["吳委員思瑤：就在這裡！我們並沒有因為2023年沒有接受向下延伸就不做事，我們反而加碼的針對0到6歲國家一起養，每年國家挹注685億在幼兒跟教保的措施，減少家長的負擔，增加這些幼兒學習品質的提升，您剛剛要解釋的就在這裡嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：我們擴大公立、非營利、準公共幼兒園的設施，有36.5萬名幼生受惠，每年國家加碼投入505億；對於讀私校或是家長在家自己帶的20.5萬名幼生，我們另外也給予育兒津貼，每年國家也投入了180億。當國庫能夠負擔，國家行有餘力，我們想方設法再把教保的措施做得更完善，這就是現行的政策，而我看到委員的提案，雖然只改一個字，可是教育現場就會雞飛狗跳。我們這十年間逐步地提升公共化的教保，不管是公立幼兒園十年增加217所、非營利幼兒園十年增加399所，都是要人力、物力、空間，而且有非常多跟公私部門的協調，我們努力穩健地做到，這是這十年間我們的成果，對不對？所以我們擔心增設幼兒園，立委只改一個字，把6歲改成5歲，國民教育就向下延伸了，立委們難道認為增設幼兒園是變魔術嗎？改個字就可以做到嗎？如果以現在委員所提出的向下延伸一年到5歲的話，要增加1,431班，對不對？有的委員更進一步延伸到3到5歲，那麼要增加1萬4,356班，你們有算過嗎？如果以剛剛我們十年增加616班來計算，我們要花多少錢才能夠到位？這需要花時間，不是變魔術啊！","在教學端，課程綱要、教材審定、師資培育跟教學評量都要重新配套；在行政端，校舍空間、人事行政、經費分工跟學區分發也需要給教育部門完整的時間去做配套，這些問題都不能視而不見，你們多久時間可以完整地提出儘可能完備這些準備工作的報告呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：7天。"],["吳委員思瑤：7天做得到啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才也有委員詢問，我們7天把它盤點出來。"],["吳委員思瑤：但你們7天也可能只是回應說這些部分現在都很難達成嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，其實剛才也有委員提到，向下延伸到5歲，我們開始有課綱，我們比較重視學科學習，會不會因為這樣子造成幼兒學習的壓力，就進入……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，也衝擊了整個……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這也是另外一個觀點，這個我們也會來評估。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，7天給報告是可以的，但不代表7天就可以讓向下延伸好像有明確的方向。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，我們是7天給資料說我們遇到什麼問題、過去的評估怎麼樣、現在新的觀點怎麼樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，很好，讓大家更清楚地知道。"],["張廖次長萬堅：甚至國際上很多國家，委員也有提到的，他們執行的狀況，我們現在其實比較正確的方向是要減輕負擔，增加生育……"],["吳委員思瑤：對，這是現在我們政策的做法。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後，我更要挑戰，就在教育文化委員會，上上週修了幼照法，要求把就讀私立幼兒園或在家自己帶的，全部提高津貼至每個月1.5萬到2萬，意思是這些讀私校的、在家自己帶的由國庫來補貼，然後準公共幼兒園也全部免費由政府負擔；現在的今天又來修國教法，把5歲的那一端全部變成中央買單，很奇怪啊，剛修的幼照法跟今天要修的國教法不就是自己邏輯錯亂、自相矛盾嗎？幼照法是要政府用擴大補貼的方式補給家長，然後現在修國教法又全部要國家買單，我不曉得審查之後，這兩個法的競合、衝突怎麼解決？你們有看到這個問題嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們當然知道，我們也是覺得這個部分真的要審慎評估，沒有辦法什麼都用補貼或者是補助。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，所以我們非常理性跟嚴謹地來呼籲，教育現場的需要、教育品質的提升，我們有多元的政策，逐步地來做成，立委對於義務教育向下延伸，stakeholders彼此的意見，我們需要跟更多的社會層面來對話，我們要嚴謹地面對，大家繼續地強化論述，不能夠倉促修法，造成教育現場的大混亂。好，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝，請回座。","下一位有請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-18","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","吳思瑤","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳培瑜","蔡春綢","許忠信","張雅琳","翁曉玲","葛如鈞","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-06-29"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、委員邱鎮軍等20人\n擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三\n條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第\n四條條文修正草案」案；五、委員葉元之等18 人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」\n案；六、委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案；七、\n委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；八、委員\n邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案；九、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國\n民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案；十、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條\n及第二十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}