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國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【進行詢答及逐條審查】【6月29日及7月1、2日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":5.24534375,"end":7.54034375,"speaker_score":0.894},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.282843750000001,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":10.695968750000002,"end":11.337218750000002,"speaker_score":0.862},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":11.87721875,"end":12.974093750000002,"speaker_score":0.894},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"伍麗華Saidhai 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因為我們都很知道學校它的產生是來自於工業革命化之後"},{"start":30.264,"end":43.695,"text":"所以呢为了国家需要读写算的人力需要标准化的知识在短期的时间内累积知识能力所以呢我们有着这样的一个机构"},{"start":44.721,"end":71.208,"text":"可是当我们说学校是不是等同于工厂化其实也蛮像的所以呢一直以来几十年来在教育心理学上不断的讨论到底我们的孩子要几岁入学才是最好的但是至少我们知道幼儿它基于他的大脑肌肉的一个发展"},{"start":72.348,"end":98.064,"text":"來到了學校他會有一些問題像是久時間的一個端坐在那邊或者是要求一個高度的紀律甚至是分離的焦慮讓他造成以後排斥上學或者是這樣的一個集體化學習抹滅掉孩子的創造力好奇心所以簡單來講就是亞苗助長"},{"start":99.246,"end":118.616,"text":"可是我們面對教育的平權跟教育我們的幼兒的身心發展其實他到底是只能擇一是互斥的還是我們可以兼顧的但是我們可以知道現在因為幼兒園他有點類似軍備競賽"},{"start":121.177,"end":147.943,"text":"所以呢很多的教育学者也非常的担心那现在我们更面临到的一个新的问题是AI技术它真的是发展的非常快速那么面对我们现在已经实施这200年的传统学校体制的僵化所以呢已经慢慢的开始出现了三四十年前在谈的无学校时代"},{"start":148.743,"end":164.639,"text":"也就是我們也慢慢開始可能要去考慮做去的以機構為中心是不是現在慢慢的已經轉移到以學習者為中心那麼正在解構當中特別是現在的一個學歷通膨"},{"start":165.64,"end":191.368,"text":"所以我們在這個時候要來討論這個問題也不是不可以但是呢我至少知道說如果我們要談到教育的平權談到機會的平等我們一直都在講要實質的平等所以我們一直主張要有積極性的差別待遇那特別是像現在我看起來我們教育部的目標就是免學費嘛"},{"start":192.248,"end":207.447,"text":"非強迫嘛那我也知道說仍舊現在有很多的家庭他沒有照顧的一個能量跟支持我也看到我們很多的孩子他需要早期療癒"},{"start":209.169,"end":225.16,"text":"卻不得其門而入家長也不送他去那有很多認知發展遲緩或者是身心障礙的這些兒童他們都很需要及早的接受教育所以在這個部分"},{"start":225.78,"end":242.885,"text":"我會覺得說如果我們要去彌平所謂的教育平權給予它實質的平等積極性的差別待遇我個人是認為這是我個人的主張我真的建議從分區尤其是所謂的離島"},{"start":244.645,"end":263.783,"text":"還有原鄉偏鄉來做那剛好我也看到立法院的法治局在110年的報告有提到建議從教育資源不足的地區開始做那我覺得孩子其實一般的孩子他更需要的是愛"},{"start":264.964,"end":279.694,"text":"安全然後充分的遊戲充分的聽故事那到底有一些幼兒園他是不是只做提供愛與安全然後呢給他充分的遊戲讓他充分的聽故事"},{"start":280.595,"end":301.789,"text":"是不是所有的幼兒園都能夠這麼做我相信大家都有眼睛都可以看但是我們現在要討論的就是說我想聽聽看就是提到這個國民教育向下延伸到五歲到底準備好了沒有因為我現在知道的是我們的五歲入園率是96%次長沒錯吧是"},{"start":304.21,"end":329.276,"text":"所以如果我們現在把他強迫入學條例追蹤的話會有多少人需要把他拉回來大概六千人左右那這六千人會產生什麼樣的一個做法如果按照強迫入學條例的話他可能會有一些懲罰的機制開罰可能要開罰那意思就是說有一些家長會強烈的反對嗎"},{"start":333.508,"end":347.302,"text":"應該是會他如果有生疏譬如說有一些特殊的因素譬如說他出國或者他有特殊的身體疾病等等那如果是那種有教育理念的家長呢他是在家學他就是去學校"},{"start":348.363,"end":363.115,"text":"為中心的學習在家自學那個申請也是可以做所以他就申請在家入學那麼如果現在我們要開始做這件事情那請問我們的非營利幼兒園準公共的這些幼兒園私幼他們的配套是什麼"},{"start":364.111,"end":384.006,"text":"這個就是要去研究嘛公共化我們10年我們剛才提到這個委員也提到嘛10年來大概增加了公幼跟非營利幼兒園大概增加600多所那這些這些其實是一直在逐漸在提供能量那其實委員你現在在黑板上所講的這個東西就是說我們從"},{"start":384.887,"end":405.63,"text":"降低負擔開始 土積率開始 到現在我們也開始在注意這個質的部分 質量的問題 所以我們現在大家倡議多年的 希望能夠從1比15減到1比12我們在公共化的幼兒園裡面也都已經達到了 115學年都達到再過來就是對於一些品質 有些準公共"},{"start":406.371,"end":423.448,"text":"准公共化私立的幼兒園它的品質的問題我們要怎麼樣的監管提升等等這個也是我們未來努力的重點市長其實我覺得這件事情不是不能做但是我覺得持不同觀點的人很多"},{"start":424.309,"end":446.21,"text":"不管是專家學者或者是家長其實很多人都持不同的觀點所以我覺得充分的溝通很重要那麼跟地方的分權也要談清楚我們會把這些點談出來所以我覺得這個部分我們需要更多的一個支持的論證可是呢"},{"start":446.71,"end":465.048,"text":"我個人我是希望說如果說真的要推那我是希望看到如何分階段分區域那特別是針對我剛剛所講的積極性的差別待遇才是真公平我希望能夠在兩個月內可以給我看到我們這個"},{"start":470.794,"end":495.609,"text":"一样的一个分阶段分区域的实施的规划内容还有可行性我希望两个月之内给我报告可以吗然后另外有一个问题我想要请教一下就是我们现在在谈校师会议但是我遇到很多老师其实他在可能被考核办法处理之后呢他被记过然后呢他们也会打夙愿"},{"start":496.73,"end":512.316,"text":"好現在因為他們都要自費的去找律師寫狀要自證清白那你也可以看到很多老師說身心科看了兩年啊然後呢要去跟他們的縣政府去要求經費呢也被拒絕"},{"start":513.416,"end":531.229,"text":"所以這個部分我想要了解一下學校作為教師的服務機關那對於因公設送的教師他應該負有法定協助義務那這些義務呢不是學校的恩惠而是教師法明確規定的責任所以我有所知教育部提供給我111到114年"},{"start":534.091,"end":541.919,"text":"因公射送老師的補助案件我看到是16案46人所以這個是確實的數據嗎"},{"start":544.873,"end":564.779,"text":"我想這是國立的高中所以給我的這個16萬446人是針對國立高中嗎所以其實我們之前我們在參加公聽會的時候有很多教師團結的代表公會代表提到那個教師如果因為這些投訴他射送除了心理智商輔導系統的建立之外"},{"start":565.279,"end":588.624,"text":"律師的支持我是個人非常支持回去我也跟部裡面講所以我才希望因為有的縣市他不給啊是所以我們就是因為業務單位跟我說這個我們必須要跟地方來在談那在跟地方談之前我們自己部裡面也盤一些經費我們來協助就像好像當年教師法修過之後2020年開始我們開始自己"},{"start":590.251,"end":605.901,"text":"編中央的預算然後輔導各個地方縣市政府來建立教師諮商輔導系統每年諮商的案件從兩千多成長到現在五千多件我想這個就是也是要一步一步來做地方不做我們就來協助我們用經費用計畫來希望他能夠來做"},{"start":606.761,"end":625.094,"text":"那當然我很肯定教育部有跟衛福部研議準備說將家長配合管教責任入法並納入罰則所以這個部分的進度還有呢對於這一些有沒有建立及時法務的支援機制"},{"start":626.375,"end":652.7,"text":"現在教育部在做的說要增至學務人力是否具備足夠的專業訓練來應對這一些管教事件那最後就是應該要同步檢討教師如果因公射送他的輔助辦法希望可以明確界定老師可以被協助的部分那我也希望兩個月內一同的提供給本席好不好好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:39.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:41.714000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委主席，有請次長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:41.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:42.114000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:44.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:44.916000+08:00","text":"伍召委好。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:46.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:46.496000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:48.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:57:55.820000+08:00","text":"談到國民義務教育向下延伸，其實這個問題談了幾十年，為什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:57:56.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:58:16.734000+08:00","text":"因為我們都知道，學校的產生是來自於工業革命化之後，為了國家需要讀寫算的人力，需要標準化的知識，在短期的時間內累積知識能力，所以我們有了這樣一個機構。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:58:18.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:59:12.064000+08:00","text":"可是當我們說學校是不是等同於工廠化，其實也蠻像的，所以一直以來、幾十年來在教育心理學上不斷地討論，到底我們的孩子要幾歲入學才是最好的，至少我們知道基於幼兒大腦、肌肉的發展，來到學校會有一些問題，像是久時間端坐在那邊或者是要求高度紀律，甚至是分離焦慮，造成他以後排斥上學，或者是這樣一個集體化學習可能抹滅掉孩子的創造力及好奇心，所以簡單來講就是揠苗助長。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:59:14.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T11:59:26.793000+08:00","text":"我們面對教育的平權跟幼兒的身心發展，這到底是只能擇一、互斥的，還是我們可以兼顧的？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T11:59:27.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:00:46.689000+08:00","text":"我們可以知道現在的幼兒園有點類似軍備競賽，所以很多的教育學者也非常擔心，現在我們更面臨到的一個新問題是AI技術真的是發展非常快速，面對我們現在已經實施200年的傳統學校體制的僵化，已經慢慢的開始出現了三、四十年前在談的無學校時代，也就是我們也可能要開始考慮過去以機構為中心，現在是不是已經慢慢的轉移到以學習者為中心，如今正在解構當中，特別是現在的學歷通膨，所以我們此時要討論這個問題也不是不可以，但是我至少知道，如果要談到教育的平權以及機會的平等，我們一直都在講要實質的平等，因此我們一直主張要有積極性的差別待遇，特別是像現在看起來教育部的目標就是免學費、非強迫。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:00:48.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:01:05.811000+08:00","text":"我知道現在仍舊有很多的家庭沒有照顧的能量及支持系統，也看到很多的孩子需要早期療育卻不得其門而入，家長也不送他去。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:01:06.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:01:17.639000+08:00","text":"另外有很多認知發展遲緩或者是身心障礙的兒童，他們都很需要及早接受教育。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:01:18.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:01:52.538000+08:00","text":"所以在這個部分，我覺得如果要弭平所謂的教育平權，給予實質的平等及積極性的差別待遇，我個人認為，也是我個人的主張，我真的建議從分區，尤其是所謂的離島、原鄉還有偏鄉開始做，剛好我也看到立法院法制局在110年的報告有提到，建議從教育資源不足的地區開始做。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:01:53.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:16.696000+08:00","text":"我覺得其實一般的孩子更需要的是愛、安全、充分的遊戲及充分的聽故事，所有的幼兒園是不是能提供愛與安全，給他充分的遊戲，讓他充分的聽故事，是不是所有的幼兒園都能夠這麼做？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:17.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:30.625000+08:00","text":"我相信大家都有眼睛可以看，但是我們現在要討論的議題，我想聽聽看，提到國民教育向下延伸到五歲，到底準備好了沒有？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:31.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:35.769000+08:00","text":"我知道現在五歲的入園率是96%，次長，沒錯吧？是。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:38.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:46.612000+08:00","text":"如果我們現在以強迫入學條例追蹤的話，需要把多少人拉回來？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:46.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:47.572000+08:00","text":"大概六千人左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:48.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:02:51.553000+08:00","text":"會對這六千人有什麼樣的作法？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:02:52.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:00.255000+08:00","text":"如果按照強迫入學條例的話，它會有一些懲罰的機制，可能要開罰。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:00.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:03.276000+08:00","text":"意思是有一些家長會強烈的反對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:07.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:15.917000+08:00","text":"應該會，他如果有申訴，譬如有一些特殊的因素，出國或者他有特殊的身體疾病等等，我想……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:16.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:18.940000+08:00","text":"如果是那種有教育理念的家長呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:19.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:25.265000+08:00","text":"他是在家學習，就是去學校為中心的學習，在家自學，經由申請也是可以通過。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:25.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:26.927000+08:00","text":"所以他就申請在家自學。對、對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:28.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:37.115000+08:00","text":"如果現在我們要開始做這件事情，請問非營利幼兒園、準公共的幼兒園及私幼的配套是什麼？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:38.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:03:54.083000+08:00","text":"這就是需要去研究嘛，公共化十年……剛才伍委員也有提到，近十年來公幼及非營利幼兒園大概增加了六百多所，這些其實是一直逐漸在提供能量。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:03:54.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:15.466000+08:00","text":"委員你現在黑板上所講的這個部分，我們從降低負擔與普及率開始，現在也開始在注意質的部分，質量的問題，所以現在大家倡議多年，希望能夠減從一比十五，減到一比十二，我們在公共化的幼兒園裡面也都已經達到了，115學年都有達到。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:16.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:28.659000+08:00","text":"另外是對於品質的提升，有些準公共化私立幼兒園的品質問題，我們要怎麼樣的監管、提升等等，這也是未來努力的重點。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:29.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:41.592000+08:00","text":"次長，其實我覺得這件事情不是不能做，但是我覺得持不同觀點的人很多，不管是專家、學者或者是家長……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:41.592000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:42.592000+08:00","text":"對，目前主流學界的意見並不主張。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:41.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:51.541000+08:00","text":"其實很多人都持不同的觀點，所以我覺得充分的溝通很重要，跟地方的分權也要談清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:51.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:04:54.524000+08:00","text":"也很重要，我們會把這些點盤出來。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:04:54.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:16.286000+08:00","text":"對，所以我覺得這個部分需要更多的支持論證，如果真的要推動，我個人是希望看到如何分階段、分區域，特別是針對我剛剛所講的積極性差別待遇才是真公平。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:16.286000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:17.286000+08:00","text":"剛才委員提的建議很好，有一些特殊生在家自學。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:17.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:28.837000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分，我希望能夠在兩個月內可以給我一份分階段、分區域的實施規劃內容還有可行性，好不好？","quality":0.535},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:29.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:29.457000+08:00","text":"規劃內容及可行性","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:31.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:32.979000+08:00","text":"我希望兩個月之內給我報告，可以嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:32.979000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:05:34.040000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:05:34.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:06:06.316000+08:00","text":"另外有一個問題想要請教，我們現在在談校事會議，但是我遇到很多老師，他可能在考核辦法處理之後，他被記過，後續他們也會訴願，現在因為他們都要自費找律師寫狀，需要自證清白，也可以看到很多老師反映身心科看了兩年，去跟他們的縣政府要求經費也被拒絕。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:06:07.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:06:35.919000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我想了解一下，學校作為教師的服務機關，對於因公涉訟的教師應該負有法定協助義務，這些義務不是學校的恩惠，而是教師法明確規定的責任，所以我有索資，教育部提供給我111到114年因公涉訟老師的補助案件，我看到16案、46人，這是確實的數據嗎？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:06:39.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:06:40.854000+08:00","text":"對，這是國立高中職的數據。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:06:42.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:06:46.355000+08:00","text":"所以給我的16案、46人是針對國立高中嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:06:47.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:03.580000+08:00","text":"對，委員，之前我們參加公聽會的時候，有很多教師團體代表、公會代表提到，教師如果因為這些投訴而涉訟，除了心理諮商、輔導系統建立之外，還有律師的支持，我個人也非常支持，回去後我也跟部裡面講……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:03.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:07.201000+08:00","text":"所以我才希望……因為有的縣市不給啊。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:07.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:17.303000+08:00","text":"所以我們……因為業務單位有跟我說，這部分必須要跟地方再談，在跟地方談之前，我們自己部裡面也有盤一些經費，由我們來協助。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:17.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:39.881000+08:00","text":"就好像當年教師法修過之後，2020年我們開始編中央的預算，輔導各個地方縣（市）政府建立教師諮商輔導系統，每年諮商的案件從兩千多件成長到現在五千多件，我想這也是要一步一步來做，地方不做我們就來協助，我們運用經費及計畫希望地方能夠做。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:41.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:51.169000+08:00","text":"當然我很肯定，教育部有跟衛福部研議，準備將家長配合管教責任入法，並納入罰則。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:51.169000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:52.169000+08:00","text":"這是兒少權法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:51.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:52.870000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個部分的進度為何？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:07:55.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:07:59.074000+08:00","text":"有沒有建立「即時法務支援機制」？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:00.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:08.457000+08:00","text":"現在教育部在做的，要增置學務人力是否具備足夠的專業訓練以應對高衝突的管教事件？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:10.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:19.659000+08:00","text":"另外，應該要同步檢討教師如果因公涉訟的輔助辦法，希望可以明確界定老師可以被協助的部分。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:19.659000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:21.159000+08:00","text":"這部分我們會與地方政府共同加強。","quality":0},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:21.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:25.060000+08:00","text":"我也希望在兩個月內一同提供給本席，好不好？好。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:25.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:26.680000+08:00","text":"謝謝次長、謝謝主席。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:27.180000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:28.180000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:28.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:31.051429+08:00","text":"下一位請許忠信委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":567,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時57分）謝謝召委主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：伍召委好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。談到國民義務教育向下延伸，其實這個問題談了幾十年，為什麼呢？因為我們都知道，學校的產生是來自於工業革命化之後，為了國家需要讀寫算的人力，需要標準化的知識，在短期的時間內累積知識能力，所以我們有了這樣一個機構。可是當我們說學校是不是等同於工廠化，其實也蠻像的，所以一直以來、幾十年來在教育心理學上不斷地討論，到底我們的孩子要幾歲入學才是最好的，至少我們知道基於幼兒大腦、肌肉的發展，來到學校會有一些問題，像是久時間端坐在那邊或者是要求高度紀律，甚至是分離焦慮，造成他以後排斥上學，或者是這樣一個集體化學習可能抹滅掉孩子的創造力及好奇心，所以簡單來講就是揠苗助長。","我們面對教育的平權跟幼兒的身心發展，這到底是只能擇一、互斥的，還是我們可以兼顧的？我們可以知道現在的幼兒園有點類似軍備競賽，所以很多的教育學者也非常擔心，現在我們更面臨到的一個新問題是AI技術真的是發展非常快速，面對我們現在已經實施200年的傳統學校體制的僵化，已經慢慢的開始出現了三、四十年前在談的無學校時代，也就是我們也可能要開始考慮過去以機構為中心，現在是不是已經慢慢的轉移到以學習者為中心，如今正在解構當中，特別是現在的學歷通膨，所以我們此時要討論這個問題也不是不可以，但是我至少知道，如果要談到教育的平權以及機會的平等，我們一直都在講要實質的平等，因此我們一直主張要有積極性的差別待遇，特別是像現在看起來教育部的目標就是免學費、非強迫。","我知道現在仍舊有很多的家庭沒有照顧的能量及支持系統，也看到很多的孩子需要早期療育卻不得其門而入，家長也不送他去。另外有很多認知發展遲緩或者是身心障礙的兒童，他們都很需要及早接受教育。所以在這個部分，我覺得如果要弭平所謂的教育平權，給予實質的平等及積極性的差別待遇，我個人認為，也是我個人的主張，我真的建議從分區，尤其是所謂的離島、原鄉還有偏鄉開始做，剛好我也看到立法院法制局在110年的報告有提到，建議從教育資源不足的地區開始做。","我覺得其實一般的孩子更需要的是愛、安全、充分的遊戲及充分的聽故事，所有的幼兒園是不是能提供愛與安全，給他充分的遊戲，讓他充分的聽故事，是不是所有的幼兒園都能夠這麼做？我相信大家都有眼睛可以看，但是我們現在要討論的議題，我想聽聽看，提到國民教育向下延伸到五歲，到底準備好了沒有？我知道現在五歲的入園率是96%，次長，沒錯吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果我們現在以強迫入學條例追蹤的話，需要把多少人拉回來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：大概六千人左右。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：會對這六千人有什麼樣的作法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果按照強迫入學條例的話，它會有一些懲罰的機制，可能要開罰。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：意思是有一些家長會強烈的反對嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該會，他如果有申訴，譬如有一些特殊的因素，出國或者他有特殊的身體疾病等等，我想……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果是那種有教育理念的家長呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：他是在家學習，就是去學校為中心的學習，在家自學，經由申請也是可以通過。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以他就申請在家自學。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：如果現在我們要開始做這件事情，請問非營利幼兒園、準公共的幼兒園及私幼的配套是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這就是需要去研究嘛，公共化十年……剛才伍委員也有提到，近十年來公幼及非營利幼兒園大概增加了六百多所，這些其實是一直逐漸在提供能量。委員你現在黑板上所講的這個部分，我們從降低負擔與普及率開始，現在也開始在注意質的部分，質量的問題，所以現在大家倡議多年，希望能夠減從一比十五，減到一比十二，我們在公共化的幼兒園裡面也都已經達到了，115學年都有達到。另外是對於品質的提升，有些準公共化私立幼兒園的品質問題，我們要怎麼樣的監管、提升等等，這也是未來努力的重點。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，其實我覺得這件事情不是不能做，但是我覺得持不同觀點的人很多，不管是專家、學者或者是家長……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，目前主流學界的意見並不主張。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實很多人都持不同的觀點，所以我覺得充分的溝通很重要，跟地方的分權也要談清楚。"],["張廖次長萬堅：也很重要，我們會把這些點盤出來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以我覺得這個部分需要更多的支持論證，如果真的要推動，我個人是希望看到如何分階段、分區域，特別是針對我剛剛所講的積極性差別待遇才是真公平。"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才委員提的建議很好，有一些特殊生在家自學。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個部分，我希望能夠在兩個月內可以給我一份分階段、分區域的實施規劃內容還有可行性，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：規劃內容及可行性"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望兩個月之內給我報告，可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外有一個問題想要請教，我們現在在談校事會議，但是我遇到很多老師，他可能在考核辦法處理之後，他被記過，後續他們也會訴願，現在因為他們都要自費找律師寫狀，需要自證清白，也可以看到很多老師反映身心科看了兩年，去跟他們的縣政府要求經費也被拒絕。所以這個部分我想了解一下，學校作為教師的服務機關，對於因公涉訟的教師應該負有法定協助義務，這些義務不是學校的恩惠，而是教師法明確規定的責任，所以我有索資，教育部提供給我111到114年因公涉訟老師的補助案件，我看到16案、46人，這是確實的數據嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，這是國立高中職的數據。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以給我的16案、46人是針對國立高中嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，委員，之前我們參加公聽會的時候，有很多教師團體代表、公會代表提到，教師如果因為這些投訴而涉訟，除了心理諮商、輔導系統建立之外，還有律師的支持，我個人也非常支持，回去後我也跟部裡面講……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我才希望……因為有的縣市不給啊。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我們……因為業務單位有跟我說，這部分必須要跟地方再談，在跟地方談之前，我們自己部裡面也有盤一些經費，由我們來協助。就好像當年教師法修過之後，2020年我們開始編中央的預算，輔導各個地方縣（市）政府建立教師諮商輔導系統，每年諮商的案件從兩千多件成長到現在五千多件，我想這也是要一步一步來做，地方不做我們就來協助，我們運用經費及計畫希望地方能夠做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當然我很肯定，教育部有跟衛福部研議，準備將家長配合管教責任入法，並納入罰則。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是兒少權法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，所以這個部分的進度為何？有沒有建立「即時法務支援機制」？現在教育部在做的，要增置學務人力是否具備足夠的專業訓練以應對高衝突的管教事件？另外，應該要同步檢討教師如果因公涉訟的輔助辦法，希望可以明確界定老師可以被協助的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分我們會與地方政府共同加強。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我也希望在兩個月內一同提供給本席，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請許忠信委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-18","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","吳思瑤","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳培瑜","蔡春綢","許忠信","張雅琳","翁曉玲","葛如鈞","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-06-29"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、委員邱鎮軍等20人\n擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三\n條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第\n四條條文修正草案」案；五、委員葉元之等18 人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」\n案；六、委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案；七、\n委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；八、委員\n邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案；九、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國\n民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案；十、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條\n及第二十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}