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台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 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您的麥克風沒開我們時間重新計算 謝謝各位同仁 雖然我不是本會的委員"},{"start":34.721,"end":61.863,"text":"但是因為今天接受到解聘以及考核辦法新制的施行到今天剛好半年所以我一個實體的問題一個程序的問題要來請教次長您今天的報告我大概整理成這樣一個體系圖也就是說在管教部分如果是適當的管教根據他的目的手段等合乎比例原則這個有一般的管教跟特別管教"},{"start":63.359,"end":91.413,"text":"那如果是不當的管將這個時候如果有主席違法室友是不罰那如果沒有主席違法室友就會有各種情形消失會議來處理那處罰如果是違法處罰也有可能會到消失會議那我現在這個實體的問題先來請教您也是現在行政院長卓榮泰很頭大的霸凌它是什麼意義"},{"start":92.557,"end":117.651,"text":"那我們先來了解霸凌相關的韓國有一個影集叫做鐵拳教育這個鐵拳教育它的原著它是作者支持體罰那台灣不是鐵拳教育而已台灣曾經有永春拳教育"},{"start":119.192,"end":147.412,"text":"我們某一所大學老師是對學生施以永春拳所以鐵拳跟永春拳都出生在發生在我們的教育體系裡面那這個當然是不當的管教當然是不當的管教不管你是用永春拳還是鐵拳並非依法的管教權所以我們不保障"},{"start":149.346,"end":176.685,"text":"那麼另外一種情形就是學生霸凌學生學生霸凌學生那這個比較常見有沒有可能老師霸凌學生有沒有可能老師霸凌學生我們貿易談判代表楊真女被認定為有職場霸凌"},{"start":178.035,"end":197.371,"text":"而這個霸凌的意見竟然說他打斷部署的發言然後對部署有冒犯的意見不讓他表達冒犯方式不讓部署表達意見"},{"start":199.175,"end":218.392,"text":"那由於我們霸凌這個概念在教育部如果認定的定義啊我任何法律名詞不懂我會查教育部是怎麼樣界定的所以我們教育部對霸凌的定義啊對其他機關有範例的作用"},{"start":220.098,"end":239.477,"text":"請問次長我們在那個霸凌霸凌防制準則裡面提到霸凌的部分是指個人或集體持續以言語文字圖畫符號肢體動作電子通訊網際網路或其他方式直接或間接對他人故意為貶抑排擠"},{"start":240.578,"end":267.972,"text":"欺負、騷擾或戲弄等行為使他人處於具有敵意或不友善環境而產生精神上、身體上、財產上之損害或影響正常學習活動之進行這是霸凌防治準則裡面這個定義我有查過對那麼楊振尼總代表他的言行有造成對整個談判代表這麼多人都過程霸凌嗎"},{"start":269.943,"end":298.396,"text":"根據他的調查說對很多他的同仁也都用這種方式我個人認為如果把霸凌這麼廣義化的話那這個以後我們當各部會的長官都要很小心你可能講話部署沒有讓他講完你可能對部署講話比較不客氣就會構成霸凌持續性"},{"start":299.468,"end":325.6,"text":"所以我們教育部在這裡概念的拿捏非常的精準所以我相信我們老師不會去霸凌全班的同學更不可能霸凌個別的同學那這個實體的問題我們今天謝謝次長給我這個答案那如果有霸凌等這個違法的管教或是處罰就有可能會去檢舉進入校事會議"},{"start":327.079,"end":352.234,"text":"那麼最近屏東我們黨部反映上來說有屏東的老師因為在這個校事會議說到調查生不如死生不如死非常痛苦所以呢這一種案件的檢舉或是申訴我們現在已經降到22%成案的進入校事會議"},{"start":357.27,"end":384.1,"text":"那本來是82有降下來那現在那個不受理的比例也提高有但是不受理有沒有救濟的制度啊也就是說學生家長他的投訴不受理我看到你的報告沒有講救濟的制度重複投訴的話我們基本上不受理那他如果去救濟他認為這個不公平他當然可以再去救濟沒有管道"},{"start":385.1,"end":414.095,"text":"我發現你的辦法裡面第四條陳情人有管道我們那個第四條有我們不受理要讓他有合法的第二次的申訴的救濟制度往上級機關可以陳情要上上級機關主管機關學校的主管機關不然的話大家去學校學校按照我們辦法就是從無投訴就不受理這是程序上的第一個問題第二個我們在校事會議"},{"start":415.68,"end":443.25,"text":"如果做成不續聘解任他是打行政訴訟了那如果我們認為不至於解聘而只是考積的問題就回流到考核的機制所以我聽起來您的報告這樣是很清楚但是在這裡我如果是那個家長或是投訴之人我認為他續聘而只是考積我不服"},{"start":445.561,"end":468.311,"text":"這個也是向這個主管機關投訴我看你們的辦法裡面有有有第十條請那個委員可以參與我們那個第十條我們那個解聘不續聘辦法回流也就是說在下次會議回流到考積三十天內可以提出可以跟那個主管機關提出陳情"},{"start":469.696,"end":487.952,"text":"像主管機關 也就是說如果是國立高中的話就像教育部那麼如果是地方的國中 縣市政府所以我如果不符消失會議去聘但是變成對不起 這部分我們請署長來回答好不好"},{"start":493.582,"end":507.489,"text":"我個人研究是沒有啦家長裁罰之後是沒有他不受理的部分可以啦可以再呈現但是那個已經做成決定的是沒有做成決定續聘但是考積如果家長不滿的話這個沒有辦法這個已經做成決定了沒有這個機制了那因為你們剛剛是對對對"},{"start":512.489,"end":533.357,"text":"我今天是來協助我們櫃會櫃部能夠建立一個完整的機制目前是這樣因為我們台灣的法制不是只有教育部有這種機制我們法務部法規是最多的都有很健全的機制其實不受理也要有救濟然後對回流的案件家長不服也要有救濟"},{"start":534.591,"end":537.813,"text":"至少要二審這樣會比較無重一點這個可能還要再從長計議就是說看看怎麼樣子提過去在食物現場上好像大部分"},{"start":552.244,"end":580.707,"text":"對 會反覆就是說家長他就是不能接受譬如說你記他大過他認為應該要開始要解聘他就是一直在陳情這可能會造成現場的困擾是 對所以如果有二審的話可以服眾基本上因為我們校士會已經是屬於那個外聘的外聘我們他獨立的調查一個外聘專家對 所以他幾乎幾乎三個都是那三個都是調查小組都是那他做出來的決定就是決定了到教評會就決定了我想"},{"start":582.014,"end":602.531,"text":"消失會決定續聘然後回流到烤雞的家長不服還要讓他有救濟的途徑這樣就perfect非常謝謝次長今天的打呼也很感動您剛才講說願意去請律師來協助這些家長這些老師來打這個訴訟這個必要因為"},{"start":606.494,"end":631.649,"text":"已經有老師跟我反映這個制度讓他們生不如死我們會去用因公設送的部分跟地方政府再做一個討論說哪些部分是可以直接補助的因為地方政府他比較可能他在執行上比較保守啦所以我們國立的部分剛才委員提到了那十幾件其實都是我們補助的我們認為說達到那個標準我們就補助那已經有了"},{"start":632.93,"end":645.98,"text":"未來我們可能會針對這個制度更積極的去輔導各縣市政府來提供這些協助那如果初期地方政府認為有困難我們會用我們的計畫補助先行好的謝謝市長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:40+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:08:52.520000+08:00","text":"有請張廖次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:08:52.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:09:03.993000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:09:03.993000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:09:04.993000+08:00","text":"許委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:09:03.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:09:11.021000+08:00","text":"委員，不好意思，您的麥克風沒開，我們時間重新計算，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:09:11.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:09:11.441000+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:09:12.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:09:27.992000+08:00","text":"雖然我不是本會的委員，因為牽涉到解聘以及考核辦法新制施行到今天剛好半年，所以我有一個實體及一個程序的問題要請教次長。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:09:27.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:10:00.848000+08:00","text":"您今天的報告，我大概整理成這樣的體系圖，在管教部分，如果是適當的管教，根據他的目的、手段等符合比例原則，有分一般管教及特別管教；如果是不當的管教，這個時候若有阻卻違法事由則不罰，如果沒有阻卻違法事由，各種情形就交由校事會議處理；處罰部分如果是違法處罰，也有可能會提到校事會議。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:10:00.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:10:11.413000+08:00","text":"我現在先就實體的問題來請教您，也是現在行政院長卓榮泰很頭大的霸凌，它是什麼意義？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:10:12.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:11:21.875000+08:00","text":"我們先來了解霸凌相關的……韓國有一個影集叫做「鐵拳教育」，它的原著作者支持體罰，臺灣不是鐵拳教育而已，臺灣曾經有詠春拳教育，某一所大學的老師是對學生施以詠春拳，所以鐵拳跟詠春拳都發生在我們的教育體系裡面，這當然是不當的管教，不管是用詠春拳還是鐵拳，並非依法的管教權，所以我們不保障；另外一種情形就是學生霸凌學生，這比較常見，有沒有可能老師霸凌學生？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:11:23.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:11:24.596000+08:00","text":"有可能。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:11:27.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:12:02.258000+08:00","text":"我們的貿易談判代表楊珍妮被認定為有職場霸凌，而這個霸凌的意見竟然說他打斷部屬的發言，然後用冒犯的方式，不讓部屬表達意見，霸凌的定義在教育部如何認定？","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:12:03.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:12:20.859000+08:00","text":"我有任何法律名詞不懂，就會查教育部是怎麼樣界定的，所以教育部對霸凌的定義，對其他機關有提供範例的作用，請問次長。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:12:20.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:12:54.225000+08:00","text":"我們在霸凌防制準則裡面有提到霸凌，是指個人或集體持續以言語、文字、圖畫、符號、肢體動作、電子通訊、網際網路或其他方式，直接或間接對他人故意為貶抑、排擠、欺負、騷擾或戲弄等行為，使他人處於具有敵意或不友善環境，而產生精神上、身體上、財產上之損害或影響正常學習活動之進行，這是霸凌防制準則裡面的定義。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:12:55.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:13:07.972000+08:00","text":"這個定義我有查過，楊珍妮總代表的言行對整個談判代表辦公室這麼多人都構成霸凌嗎？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:13:09.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:13:58.036000+08:00","text":"根據調查，他對很多同仁也都用這種方式，我個人認為如果把霸凌這麼廣義化的話，那以後各部會的長官都要很小心，你可能沒有讓部屬把話講完，你可能對部屬講話比較不客氣，都會構成霸凌，教育部在這裡對於概念的拿捏非常的精準，所以我相信我們老師不會去霸凌全班的同學，更不可能霸凌個別的同學，關於這個實體的問題，謝謝次長給我這個答案。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:13:59.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:14:41.992000+08:00","text":"如果有霸凌等違法的管教或是處罰，就可能會有人去檢舉，進入校事會議，最近我們屏東黨部反映有屏東的老師因為在校事會議受到調查，生不如死非常痛苦，所以這一種案件的檢舉或申訴，在新制底下成案的比例現在已經降到22%，進入校事會議，本來是82%，有降下來，現在不受理的……","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:14:42.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:14:43.612000+08:00","text":"比例也提高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:14:44.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:14:47.254000+08:00","text":"但是不受理有沒有救濟的制度？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:14:47.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:14:53.276000+08:00","text":"也就是學生家長的投訴不受理，我看到你的報告沒有講救濟的制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:14:53.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:03.680000+08:00","text":"重複投訴的話，我們基本上不受理，如果他認為這個不公平，當然可以再去尋求救濟。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:05.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:06.161000+08:00","text":"我發現你的辦法裡沒有管道。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:06.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:07.581000+08:00","text":"第十條陳情人有管道。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:09.923000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:15.325000+08:00","text":"我們不受理，要讓他有合法的第二次的申訴救濟制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:17.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:18.447000+08:00","text":"可以向上級機關陳情。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:19.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:23.209000+08:00","text":"要向上級機關？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:23.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:28.812000+08:00","text":"應該是教育局、處──學校的主管機關，不然的話，按照我們的辦法，學校就是重複投訴就不受理。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:29.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:31.413000+08:00","text":"這是程序上的第一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:31.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:40.262000+08:00","text":"第二個我們在校事會議如果做成不續聘、解任，他是打行政訴訟？是。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:41.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:50.465000+08:00","text":"如果我們認為不至於解聘，而只是考績的問題，就回流到考績的機制。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:50.465000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:15:51.465000+08:00","text":"考核辦法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:15:51.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:03.230000+08:00","text":"所以我聽起來你的報告很清楚嘛，但是在這裡，我如果是那個家長或投訴之人，我認為他續聘，而只是考績，我不服，要如何救濟？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:05.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:08.222000+08:00","text":"這個也是向主管機關投訴。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:08.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:09.362000+08:00","text":"我看你們的辦法裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:10.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:18.986000+08:00","text":"陳情有，第十條，請委員可以參閱解聘不續聘辦法第十條。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:20.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:23.729000+08:00","text":"回流，也就是從校事會議回流到考績。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:25.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:28.291000+08:00","text":"30天內可以跟主管機關提出陳情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:29.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:31.157000+08:00","text":"向主管機關？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:31.157000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:32.157000+08:00","text":"對，30天內。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:31.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:33.860000+08:00","text":"也就是如果是國立高中的話，就向……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:34.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:35.001000+08:00","text":"教育部國教署。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:37.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:39.365000+08:00","text":"如果是地方的國中……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:40.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:40.506000+08:00","text":"縣市政府教育局。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:42.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:46.411000+08:00","text":"所以我如果不服校事會議續聘，但是變成……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:46.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:47.232000+08:00","text":"對不起，這部分我可能比較……我請署長來回答。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:53.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:16:54.923000+08:00","text":"我個人研究是沒有啦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:16:55.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:01.166000+08:00","text":"家長裁罰之後是沒……他不受理的部分可以啦，但是已經做成決定的是沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:01.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:03.847000+08:00","text":"做成決定續聘，但是考績，例如記小過……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:04.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:06.528000+08:00","text":"如果家長不滿的話，這個沒有辦法，已經做成決定了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:06.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:06.728000+08:00","text":"沒有這個機制。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:07.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:07.469000+08:00","text":"因為你們一樣是六個月。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:07.469000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:12.489000+08:00","text":"因為程序走完了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:12.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:18.131000+08:00","text":"我今天是來協助貴部能夠建立一個完整的機制。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:18.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:19.151000+08:00","text":"對，目前是這樣。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:19.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:22.333000+08:00","text":"因為我們臺灣的法制，不是只有教育部有這種機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:23.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:24.994000+08:00","text":"教育部的法制、法規是最多的。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:26.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:35.212000+08:00","text":"我們法務部都有很健全的機制，即使不受理也要有救濟，然後對回流的案件，家長不服也要有救濟，至少要二審，這樣會比較能服眾一點。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:35.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:17:37.133000+08:00","text":"這個可能還要從長計議，就是看看怎麼樣提。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:17:37.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:00.871000+08:00","text":"過去在實務上好像大部分會反覆，就是家長不能接受，譬如你記他大過，他認為應該要開除，他就是一直在陳情，這可能也會造成現場的困擾。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:00.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:03.934000+08:00","text":"是，所以如果有二審的話，可以服眾。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:03.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:09.258000+08:00","text":"基本上，因為校事會議已經是屬於外聘的，它獨立調查……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:09.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:10.459000+08:00","text":"有一個外聘專家。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:11.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:20.187000+08:00","text":"對，調查小組那三個都是，他們做出來的決定就是決定了，到教評會就決定了。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:20.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:31.282000+08:00","text":"我想校事會議決定續聘，然後回流到考績的，家長不服，還要讓他有救濟的途徑，這樣就perfect。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:31.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:18:50.496000+08:00","text":"非常謝謝部次長今天的答復，也很感動您剛才說願意請律師來協助這些老師來打訴訟，這個有必要，因為已經有老師跟我反映，這個制度讓他們生不如死。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:18:51.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:23.919000+08:00","text":"對，我們會就因公涉訟的部分再跟地方政府討論哪些部分是可以直接補助的，因為地方政府可能在執行上比較保守，國立的部分，剛才委員提到的那十幾件其實都是我們補助的，我們認為達到那個標準就補助，已經有了，未來我們可能會針對這個制度，更積極的去輔導各縣市政府來提供這些協助，如果初期地方政府認為有困難，我們會用我們的計畫補助先行。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:24.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:25.980000+08:00","text":"好的，謝謝次長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:26.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:29.337143+08:00","text":"謝謝，不好意思，休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:29.637143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:30.780000+08:00","text":"休息（12時19分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:31.080000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:32.794286+08:00","text":"繼續開會（12時25分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:33.094286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:34.808571+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:19:35.108571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:19:37.394286+08:00","text":"下一位張雅琳委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["許委員忠信：（12時8分）有請張廖次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：許委員好。"],["主席：委員，不好意思，您的麥克風沒開，我們時間重新計算，謝謝。"],["許委員忠信：主席、各位同仁。雖然我不是本會的委員，因為牽涉到解聘以及考核辦法新制施行到今天剛好半年，所以我有一個實體及一個程序的問題要請教次長。您今天的報告，我大概整理成這樣的體系圖，在管教部分，如果是適當的管教，根據他的目的、手段等符合比例原則，有分一般管教及特別管教；如果是不當的管教，這個時候若有阻卻違法事由則不罰，如果沒有阻卻違法事由，各種情形就交由校事會議處理；處罰部分如果是違法處罰，也有可能會提到校事會議。我現在先就實體的問題來請教您，也是現在行政院長卓榮泰很頭大的霸凌，它是什麼意義？我們先來了解霸凌相關的……韓國有一個影集叫做「鐵拳教育」，它的原著作者支持體罰，臺灣不是鐵拳教育而已，臺灣曾經有詠春拳教育，某一所大學的老師是對學生施以詠春拳，所以鐵拳跟詠春拳都發生在我們的教育體系裡面，這當然是不當的管教，不管是用詠春拳還是鐵拳，並非依法的管教權，所以我們不保障；另外一種情形就是學生霸凌學生，這比較常見，有沒有可能老師霸凌學生？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有可能。"],["許委員忠信：我們的貿易談判代表楊珍妮被認定為有職場霸凌，而這個霸凌的意見竟然說他打斷部屬的發言，然後用冒犯的方式，不讓部屬表達意見，霸凌的定義在教育部如何認定？我有任何法律名詞不懂，就會查教育部是怎麼樣界定的，所以教育部對霸凌的定義，對其他機關有提供範例的作用，請問次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們在霸凌防制準則裡面有提到霸凌，是指個人或集體持續以言語、文字、圖畫、符號、肢體動作、電子通訊、網際網路或其他方式，直接或間接對他人故意為貶抑、排擠、欺負、騷擾或戲弄等行為，使他人處於具有敵意或不友善環境，而產生精神上、身體上、財產上之損害或影響正常學習活動之進行，這是霸凌防制準則裡面的定義。"],["許委員忠信：這個定義我有查過，楊珍妮總代表的言行對整個談判代表辦公室這麼多人都構成霸凌嗎？根據調查，他對很多同仁也都用這種方式，我個人認為如果把霸凌這麼廣義化的話，那以後各部會的長官都要很小心，你可能沒有讓部屬把話講完，你可能對部屬講話比較不客氣，都會構成霸凌，教育部在這裡對於概念的拿捏非常的精準，所以我相信我們老師不會去霸凌全班的同學，更不可能霸凌個別的同學，關於這個實體的問題，謝謝次長給我這個答案。","如果有霸凌等違法的管教或是處罰，就可能會有人去檢舉，進入校事會議，最近我們屏東黨部反映有屏東的老師因為在校事會議受到調查，生不如死非常痛苦，所以這一種案件的檢舉或申訴，在新制底下成案的比例現在已經降到22%，進入校事會議，本來是82%，有降下來，現在不受理的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：比例也提高。"],["許委員忠信：但是不受理有沒有救濟的制度？也就是學生家長的投訴不受理，我看到你的報告沒有講救濟的制度。"],["張廖次長萬堅：重複投訴的話，我們基本上不受理，如果他認為這個不公平，當然可以再去尋求救濟。"],["許委員忠信：我發現你的辦法裡沒有管道。"],["張廖次長萬堅：第十條陳情人有管道。"],["許委員忠信：我們不受理，要讓他有合法的第二次的申訴救濟制度。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以向上級機關陳情。"],["許委員忠信：要向上級機關？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該是教育局、處──學校的主管機關，不然的話，按照我們的辦法，學校就是重複投訴就不受理。"],["許委員忠信：這是程序上的第一個問題。第二個我們在校事會議如果做成不續聘、解任，他是打行政訴訟？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["許委員忠信：如果我們認為不至於解聘，而只是考績的問題，就回流到考績的機制。"],["張廖次長萬堅：考核辦法。"],["許委員忠信：所以我聽起來你的報告很清楚嘛，但是在這裡，我如果是那個家長或投訴之人，我認為他續聘，而只是考績，我不服，要如何救濟？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個也是向主管機關投訴。"],["許委員忠信：我看你們的辦法裡面……"],["張廖次長萬堅：陳情有，第十條，請委員可以參閱解聘不續聘辦法第十條。"],["許委員忠信：回流，也就是從校事會議回流到考績。"],["張廖次長萬堅：30天內可以跟主管機關提出陳情。"],["許委員忠信：向主管機關？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，30天內。"],["許委員忠信：也就是如果是國立高中的話，就向……"],["張廖次長萬堅：教育部國教署。"],["許委員忠信：如果是地方的國中……"],["張廖次長萬堅：縣市政府教育局。"],["許委員忠信：所以我如果不服校事會議續聘，但是變成……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對不起，這部分我可能比較……我請署長來回答。"],["許委員忠信：我個人研究是沒有啦。"],["張廖次長萬堅：家長裁罰之後是沒……他不受理的部分可以啦，但是已經做成決定的是沒有。"],["許委員忠信：做成決定續聘，但是考績，例如記小過……"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果家長不滿的話，這個沒有辦法，已經做成決定了。"],["許委員忠信：沒有這個機制。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["許委員忠信：因為你們一樣是六個月。"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為程序走完了。"],["許委員忠信：我今天是來協助貴部能夠建立一個完整的機制。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，目前是這樣。"],["許委員忠信：因為我們臺灣的法制，不是只有教育部有這種機制。"],["張廖次長萬堅：教育部的法制、法規是最多的。"],["許委員忠信：我們法務部都有很健全的機制，即使不受理也要有救濟，然後對回流的案件，家長不服也要有救濟，至少要二審，這樣會比較能服眾一點。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個可能還要從長計議，就是看看怎麼樣提。過去在實務上好像大部分會反覆，就是家長不能接受，譬如你記他大過，他認為應該要開除，他就是一直在陳情，這可能也會造成現場的困擾。"],["許委員忠信：是，所以如果有二審的話，可以服眾。"],["張廖次長萬堅：基本上，因為校事會議已經是屬於外聘的，它獨立調查……"],["許委員忠信：有一個外聘專家。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，調查小組那三個都是，他們做出來的決定就是決定了，到教評會就決定了。"],["許委員忠信：我想校事會議決定續聘，然後回流到考績的，家長不服，還要讓他有救濟的途徑，這樣就perfect。非常謝謝部次長今天的答復，也很感動您剛才說願意請律師來協助這些老師來打訴訟，這個有必要，因為已經有老師跟我反映，這個制度讓他們生不如死。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們會就因公涉訟的部分再跟地方政府討論哪些部分是可以直接補助的，因為地方政府可能在執行上比較保守，國立的部分，剛才委員提到的那十幾件其實都是我們補助的，我們認為達到那個標準就補助，已經有了，未來我們可能會針對這個制度，更積極的去輔導各縣市政府來提供這些協助，如果初期地方政府認為有困難，我們會用我們的計畫補助先行。"],["許委員忠信：好的，謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝，不好意思，休息5分鐘。","休息（12時19分）","繼續開會（12時25分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-18","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","吳思瑤","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳培瑜","蔡春綢","許忠信","張雅琳","翁曉玲","葛如鈞","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-06-29"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、委員邱鎮軍等20人\n擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三\n條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第\n四條條文修正草案」案；五、委員葉元之等18 人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」\n案；六、委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案；七、\n委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；八、委員\n邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案；九、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國\n民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案；十、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條\n及第二十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}