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台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 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次長我先跟你討論一個問題就是說今天早上其實大家一直在想說我們到底要不要把學前教育推廣到五歲但我想教育部應該已經做了一些相關的研究是不是可以簡短的來說你們從國際研究看到的一個趨勢是什麼"},{"start":31.602,"end":49.032,"text":"我想國際上大概有些國家推得很早那有些國家可能跟台灣也很像他可能是比如說像日本他們也是在六歲但是他對於學前教育其他的這個也是配合人口政策進行一些補助減輕負擔那台灣是比較像是這一類的"},{"start":50.012,"end":75.969,"text":"政策好 了解那我想喔不知道市長是不是知道芬蘭是幾歲入學芬蘭好像是全年好像是七歲七歲 對然後呢其實這幾年呢從2006年開始啦不管是美國或是英國的劍橋大學或是德國呢甚至是這個紐西蘭呢其實大家都在思考說到底幾歲入學對孩子來說是比較適當的特別是因為說他們認為"},{"start":78.671,"end":106.783,"text":"这个学龄前的这个游戏呢其实奠定了很多的基础所以其实在很多的国家都已经证明了越晚入学其实学业的表现越好也是越适当所以这个像芬兰就是用大家说它是世界上最好的教育体系嘛而且他们在做相关的学习这个表现的检测呢其实也都优于英国或者是美国那他们是七岁入学那这个资讯呢我也提供给次长参考"},{"start":106.783,"end":125.608,"text":"好在未来我们要做一些学前教育到底要往前推进到多少我觉得可能还是要回到到儿童的身心发展还有这个学业表现上面怎样是最适当的年纪这个才是一个比较理性的讨论但再难我还是要来回来讨论有关于我们的公幼以及我们的准公幼的一个问题就是说"},{"start":126.653,"end":145.611,"text":"我們看到非常多的新聞都在講說我們補不到公幼我們報不到公幼可是事實上呢我認為這個其實是一個可能沒有很精確的說法因為我自己看到了我們在雙北雙北的部分我們在台北市就有1570個缺額在新北市有2035個缺額而這裡面呢"},{"start":150.635,"end":169.822,"text":"其实不外乎我们所理解的人口稠密区像是板桥永和三峡三重这些人口稠密区其实也都有缺额那为什么会这样这代表是说这个过去的状况其实可能已经完全不一样可能涉及到的是人口行政区里面的人口的改变可能有重化区或者是"},{"start":172.097,"end":191.69,"text":"可能交通的一個時間的考量都有可能所以我想要了解一件事情是教育部現在有沒有去掌握我們到底在兩歲專班跟三到五歲這裡面的缺額是缺在哪一個部分大概都是都會區但是我們都會區現在全國行政區把它劃了368個行政區有在盤點說我們的那個公共化那個評價教保的那個提供的那個"},{"start":201.356,"end":225.955,"text":"大概以80%左右如果沒有的話我們就是再加強補助如果已經超量了我們會謹慎評估啦但是我剛剛問的問題是說當然是兩歲專班缺還是三到五歲專班現在兩歲專班其實當然是兩歲專班最缺兩歲專班現在大概入園率大概是64%左右但是都會區沒有那麼高都會區大概50幾%大概50%左右就是說兩個大概只能提供在一個左右"},{"start":226.515,"end":242.771,"text":"對 但是就是說兩歲班專班聽起來就是需求更高嘛對不對更高更高那我現在問的問題是說在我們這個3652個區域就表示是說市場提供了很多的供給喔我們是提供了很多的供給可是市場的需求似乎沒有這麼多"},{"start":244.412,"end":266.16,"text":"這是這個數字上面的意義妳的意思就是說現在已經超額提供對 現在在特別板橋永和三峽這個地方所以我想要簡單來說就是說我們應該 剛剛有切說我們切到368個區域所以這裡面的需求其實是兩歲專班要來得更高 對嗎我們現在看到的是368個行政區裡面對"},{"start":269.221,"end":283.851,"text":"是嗎 是 對吧好 那這樣子的話我們是不是應該要從我們現在願景町人口層面區已經發現需求沒有那麼多可是供給這麼多我們是不是應該要重新盤點一下需求地圖我們有在重新盤點因為我們找那個薛嫻那個我們請組長要不要簡單回應一下好 謝謝"},{"start":287.711,"end":307.419,"text":"他盤點的很清楚跟我也說明一下因為我們現在如果公幼招生區來看的話基本上應該是三到五的話他才比較會有缺額那兩歲的部分主要是因為他因為他基本上是只要一開放招生他就會他就滿了所以基本上這個區應該主要都是三到五的缺額的部分好至於行政區我們會持續來做一些盤點"},{"start":308.96,"end":337.499,"text":"我想就是說因為兩歲專班的需求是非常旺盛的那這個到底應該要來怎麼做那我先來也有一個除了剛剛你們講那個需求地圖我們要做個很清楚之外呢第二個是說我有一個提醒因為大家在三到五歲的時候呢大家就會開始考量這個是不是離我家很近是不是教師的一個照顧是不是好有沒有師資特色那這個部分呢我就會希望說教育部可以來去調查到說"},{"start":340.762,"end":355.516,"text":"到底我們的現在3到5歲已經非常確定的是需求供給大於需求的部分這些裡面到底招不滿的原因是因為失智不符和期待還是是因為距離不夠近"},{"start":356.477,"end":378.887,"text":"我覺得這個地方可能在我們需求地圖做出來之後我們還要再去了解到說到底這些地方就是有空間那這些空間該怎麼有沒有辦法去做調整好不好這個因素真的比較複雜有的是真的它的量就減少了社區人口就老化就沒有那個市場所以有時候也不見得是它的本身的教學內容設備的問題有時候是很自然因為人口的變化"},{"start":379.967,"end":397.948,"text":"對 但是因為都會區嘛 我們剛剛講的都會區嘛所以我是說 針對於都會區裡面我們是不是可以針對這一些供給大於需求的學校我們可以再來去了解因為我們接下來還是要去精進我們的品質嘛過去我們是評價的部分那接下來我們應該還是要進步的來比較說品質量的提供到質的提升"},{"start":398.308,"end":420.091,"text":"沒錯沒錯那第三個部分我也想要跟次長再來討論就是說我們現在呢已經提供的準攻跟非營利是不是有提供完整揭露這個失聲比失資流動率裁罰紀錄申訴案件及改善情形這也還是在品質上面希望我們教育部可以來去提升"},{"start":421.272,"end":439.463,"text":"毕竟我们都不希望是看到新闻因为说这个新闻是什么被虐了之后我们家长才知道说这个学校有状况有问题所以这个部分是不是也可以来去把公共化的政策来去往前提升到让它是有品质的部分"},{"start":440.323,"end":465.785,"text":"我們資訊揭露目前都是依法公告就是有法律上規定要揭露的我們一定會揭露那至於我們提到的有一些項目是不是應該要納入我們會來評估好不好好那這個評估大概是多久的時候可以評估出來呢一個月一個月是不是好那就是針對我剛剛講的那幾個點好不好那如果不清楚的話我們可以事後再來討論針對哪些部分我們應該還要更明確那再來就是說"},{"start":468.277,"end":489.11,"text":"我们对于这个电子烟持有要罚三到十万但是因为这个烟害防治法之前在宣布的时候是说一个月的时间那我想请教就是在学校阶段的部分呢我们现在准备状况如何因为可能很快在学期开始就会开始进行了那现在的"},{"start":489.997,"end":512.989,"text":"在分工上齁 其實裁罰機關是衛福部嘛 應該是衛福部對 沒錯 是衛福部對 所以說那個過去 大概譬如學校裡面的煙害房子啦或者這些都是衛福部來裁罰所以今天這個流程上面會是怎麼樣是衛福部要進到學校裡嗎我們這裡還要跨部會來討論那個整個處理程序對 但是因為我想齁 這個部分為什麼我今天要特別關"},{"start":514.89,"end":538.052,"text":"關心喔除了這個問題比較嚴重第二個部分是因為衛福部是說法通過一個月內所以我這個我算了一下時間可能九月十月就差不多了就到期限了啦所以我覺得這個可能要盡快去釐清我們在校園裡面的分工到底是什麼因為這個家長跟老師也都會非常關心嘛到底是進行還有學生也非常關心他的權益基本上不會再讓學校去處理這些懲罰的流程"},{"start":540.273,"end":567.499,"text":"但是如果學校在輔導管教過程裡面被發現持有那持有的時候他舉報的應該是衛福部開發應該是這樣只是說那個程序要怎麼走我們兩部會再做協調大概什麼時候你們會有一個進度呢大概什麼時候多久會有進度其實衛福部在主導所以我們會有一個跨部會的一個平台那個平台就是我們那個法律修了以後大概就是半年內執法要上路"},{"start":568.973,"end":591.85,"text":"可是因為他吃柚子開放一個月緩沖耶我看新聞是這樣子寫沒關係 這樣子好不好因為你們既然聽起來是跨部會的平台已經組成了嘛 對不對好 那這部分我們也會再來跟你們追蹤一下進度是什麼 好不好我們大概是一個月之後會再來追蹤你們好 謝謝韋子 現在我們就來努力好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:25:12.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:25:19.236000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請次長跟署長。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:25:19.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:25:19.657000+08:00","text":"有請次長跟彭署長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:25:19.657000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:25:27.205000+08:00","text":"委員好。好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:25:27.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:25:42.292000+08:00","text":"次長，我先跟你討論一個問題，今天早上大家一直在講我們到底要不要把學前教育推廣到5歲，我想教育部應該已經做了一些相關的研究，是不是可以簡短地來說你們從國際研究看到的趨勢是什麼？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:25:43.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:02.112000+08:00","text":"對，我想國際上大概有些國家推得很早，而有些國家可能跟臺灣也很像，比如日本也是在6歲，但他對於學前教育、其他的也是配合人口政策進行一些補助，減輕負擔，臺灣比較像是這一類的政策。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:02.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:03.433000+08:00","text":"好，了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:04.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:07.596000+08:00","text":"次長知不知道芬蘭是幾歲入學？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:08.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:12.779000+08:00","text":"芬蘭好像是全年、好像是……7歲。7歲，對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:16.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:41.456000+08:00","text":"從2006年開始，不管是美國、英國劍橋大學或者德國，甚至是紐西蘭，大家都在思考到底幾歲入學對孩子來說是比較適當的，特別是因為他們認為學齡前的遊戲奠定了很多基礎，在很多國家都已經證明了越晚入學其實學業的表現越好，也是越適當的。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:42.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:26:58.763000+08:00","text":"所以像芬蘭，大家說它是世界上最好的教育體系，而且他們做了相關的學習表現檢測也都優於英國或者美國，他們是7歲入學，這個資訊我也提供給次長參考。","quality":0.578},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:26:58.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:27:10.186000+08:00","text":"在未來我們做一些學前教育，到底要往前推進到多少，我覺得可能還是要回到兒童的身心發展還有學業表現上面怎樣是最適當的年紀，這才是比較理性的討論。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:27:11.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:27:52.178000+08:00","text":"再來，我還是要回來討論有關於我們的公幼以及準公幼的問題，我們看到非常多的新聞都在講報不到公幼，可是事實上我認為這可能不是很精確的一個說法，因為我自己看到了在雙北的部分，臺北市就有1,570個缺額，在新北市也有2,035個缺額，而這裡面不外乎我們所理解的人口稠密區，像是板橋、永和、三峽、三重這些人口稠密區也都有缺額，為什麼會這樣？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:27:53.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:06.318000+08:00","text":"這代表相較於過去的狀況，其實已經完全不一樣，可能涉及到的是行政區裡面人口的改變、有重劃區或者交通的時間上考量都有可能。","quality":0.709},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:06.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:16.485000+08:00","text":"所以我想了解一件事情，教育部現在有沒有掌握，我們在2歲專班跟3到5歲這裡面的缺額，到底是缺在哪一個部分？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:17.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:18.887000+08:00","text":"大概都是都會區，我們還有劃……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:18.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:19.727000+08:00","text":"但是我們都會區現在也有……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:19.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:39.321000+08:00","text":"我們就全國行政區，把它劃了368個行政區，有在盤點公共化、平價教保提供的那個額……大概以80%左右，沒有的話我們就是再加強補助，如果已經超量，我們會謹慎評估。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:40.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:44.064000+08:00","text":"但我剛剛問的問題是，到底是2歲專班缺還是3到5歲……","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:44.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:28:57.935000+08:00","text":"當然是2歲專班最缺，2歲專班現在入園率大概是64%左右，但是都會區沒有那麼高，都會區大概五十幾percent、差不多50%左右，就是2個大概只能提供1個左右。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:28:58.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:02.059000+08:00","text":"對，但2歲班專班聽起來就是需求更高，對不對？更高。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:02.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:17.193000+08:00","text":"更高，那我現在要問的問題是，這3,605個缺額就表示我們提供了很多的供給，可是市場的需求似乎沒有這麼多，這是這個數字上面的意義。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:17.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:18.793000+08:00","text":"你的意思是現在已經超額提供就對了。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:19.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:20.014000+08:00","text":"對，現在特別……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:20.014000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:21.014000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:20.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:36.960000+08:00","text":"板橋、永和、三峽這個地方，我簡單來說，你剛剛說切到368個區域，所以這裡面的需求其實是2歲專班更高，對嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:36.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:41.361000+08:00","text":"我們現在看到的是，368個行政區裡面，是嗎？是。對吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:43.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:53.229000+08:00","text":"這樣子的話，現在在人口稠密區已經發現需求沒有那麼多，可是供給這麼多，我們是不是應該重新盤點一下需求地圖？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:53.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:55.731000+08:00","text":"我們有在重新盤點，要不要請組長簡單回應一下？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:55.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:29:55.851000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:29:59.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:30:00.531000+08:00","text":"他盤點得很清楚。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王組長慧秋","start":"2026-06-29T12:30:00.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:30:19.419000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在如果以公幼招生缺額來看，基本上應該是3到5歲的話才比較會有缺額，而2歲的部分主要是因為，只要它一開放招生就滿額，所以基本上這個缺額主要應該都是3到5歲的部分，至於行政區我們會持續再做一些盤點。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:30:20.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:30:24.262000+08:00","text":"好，我想2歲專班的需求是非常旺盛的。對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:30:25.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:30:40.393000+08:00","text":"這個到底應該怎麼做，除了剛剛你們講的，需求地圖我們要做得很清楚之外，第二個是，我有一個提醒，因為3到5歲的時候，大家就會開始考量是不是離我家很近？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:30:41.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:30:45.637000+08:00","text":"教師的照顧是不是好、師資有沒有特色？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:30:46.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:31:17.381000+08:00","text":"這個部分我希望教育部可以調查，現在就3到5歲已經非常確定的是供給大於需求的部分，這裡面招不滿的原因到底是因為師資不符合期待還是距離不夠近，我覺得這個地方可能在需求地圖做出來之後，我們還要再去了解，因為這些地方就是有空間，就這些空間看有沒有辦法做調整，好不好？","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:31:17.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:31:24.544000+08:00","text":"這個因素真的比較複雜，有的是真的它的量就減少，社區人口老化，就沒有那個市場。沒錯。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:31:24.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:31:30.867000+08:00","text":"所以有時候也不見得是它本身的教學內容、設備問題，有時候是很自然因為人口的變化。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:31:31.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:31:48.366000+08:00","text":"對，所以我說都會區裡面，是不是可以針對這些供給大於需求的學校再去了解，因為接下來還是要精進品質，過去我們是就評價的部分，接下來我們應該要進一步要求品質。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:31:48.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:31:50.688000+08:00","text":"品質，從量的提供到質的提升。沒錯。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:31:51.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:07.666000+08:00","text":"第三個部分，我也想跟次長再來討論，我們現在已經提供的準公幼跟非營利部分，是不是有完整揭露師生比、師資流動率、裁罰紀錄、申訴案件及改善情形？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:08.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:12.071000+08:00","text":"這也是在品質上面希望教育部可以提升的。是。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:13.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:31.083000+08:00","text":"畢竟我們都不希望是看到新聞之後，像這個新聞是被虐了之後，家長才知道學校有狀況、有問題，所以這部分是不是也可以把公共化的政策往前提升到讓它是有品質的？","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:32.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:38.429000+08:00","text":"好，我們資訊揭露目前都是依法公告，法律上規定要揭露的我們一定會揭露。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:39.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:44.093000+08:00","text":"至於委員提到的，有一些項目是不是應該要納入，我們會評估，好不好？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:44.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:47.717000+08:00","text":"好，這個評估大概是多久可以評估出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:47.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:48.037000+08:00","text":"一個月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:48.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:49.198000+08:00","text":"一個月，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:49.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:51.880000+08:00","text":"好，就是針對我剛剛講的那幾個點，好不好？好。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:52.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:55.023000+08:00","text":"如果不清楚的話，我們可以事後再討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:55.023000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:56.023000+08:00","text":"可以，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:55.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:32:57.105000+08:00","text":"看針對哪些部分我們還要更明確。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:32:57.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:16.407000+08:00","text":"再來，我們對於電子煙持有將罰3到10萬，但是因為菸害防治法之前宣布的時候是說一個月的時間，那我想請教在學校階段的部分，我們現在準備的狀況如何？","quality":0.603},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:16.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:19.909000+08:00","text":"因為可能很快地在學期開始後就會進行了。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:21.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:25.459000+08:00","text":"在分工上其實裁罰機關是衛福部、應該是衛福部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:25.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:26.339000+08:00","text":"對，沒錯，是衛福部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:29.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:34.543000+08:00","text":"過去學校裡面的菸害防治或者這些都是衛福部來裁罰。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:34.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:40.266000+08:00","text":"所以今天流程上面會是怎麼樣，是衛福部要進到學校裡嗎？還是……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:40.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:42.407000+08:00","text":"我們還要跨部會討論整個處理程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:42.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:46.890000+08:00","text":"對，但是我想這個部分，為什麼我今天要特別關心？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:47.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:56.359000+08:00","text":"除了這個問題比較嚴重，第二個部分是因為，衛福部是說法通過後一個月內，我算了一下時間，可能9月、10月就差不多到期限了。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:56.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:33:57.359000+08:00","text":"是，最近應該會開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:33:56.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:06.408000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得可能要儘快釐清我們在校園裡面的分工到底是什麼，因為家長跟老師也都會非常關心，還有學生也非常關心他的權益會不會受損。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:06.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:10.032000+08:00","text":"基本上不會再讓學校去處理這些懲罰的流程。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:10.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:12.273000+08:00","text":"對，行政事務，沒錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:12.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:18.995000+08:00","text":"行政事務，但是如果學校在輔導管教過程裡面，被發現持有，他舉報的應該是衛福部開罰。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:18.995000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:19.995000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:18.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:22.535000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣，只是那個程序要怎麼走，我們兩部會再做協調。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:22.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:23.756000+08:00","text":"程序要怎麼走，大概什麼時候你們會有一個進度呢？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:30.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:39.479000+08:00","text":"其實是衛福部在主導，所以我們會有跨部會的一個平臺，我們那個法律修了以後，大概就是半年內子法要上路嘛！對。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:40.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:43.275000+08:00","text":"可是因為它對於持有只開放一個月的緩衝耶！","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:45.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:47.978000+08:00","text":"我看新聞是這樣子寫。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:47.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:48.978000+08:00","text":"我們會趕……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:47.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:48.999000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，這樣子好不好？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:49.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:34:57.986000+08:00","text":"既然聽起來是跨部會的平台已經組成了，這部分我們也會再來追蹤你們的進度是什麼，好不好？好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:34:58.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:00.828000+08:00","text":"我們大概是1個月之後會再來追蹤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:01.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:03.290000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教，我們來努力。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"張委員雅琳","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:03.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:03.850000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:04.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:05.350000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:05.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:08.221429+08:00","text":"下一位是吳沛憶委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":675,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時25分）謝謝主席，有請次長跟署長。"],["主席：有請次長跟彭署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：好。次長，我先跟你討論一個問題，今天早上大家一直在講我們到底要不要把學前教育推廣到5歲，我想教育部應該已經做了一些相關的研究，是不是可以簡短地來說你們從國際研究看到的趨勢是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想國際上大概有些國家推得很早，而有些國家可能跟臺灣也很像，比如日本也是在6歲，但他對於學前教育、其他的也是配合人口政策進行一些補助，減輕負擔，臺灣比較像是這一類的政策。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。次長知不知道芬蘭是幾歲入學？"],["張廖次長萬堅：芬蘭好像是全年、好像是……"],["張委員雅琳：7歲。"],["張廖次長萬堅：7歲，對。"],["張委員雅琳：從2006年開始，不管是美國、英國劍橋大學或者德國，甚至是紐西蘭，大家都在思考到底幾歲入學對孩子來說是比較適當的，特別是因為他們認為學齡前的遊戲奠定了很多基礎，在很多國家都已經證明了越晚入學其實學業的表現越好，也是越適當的。所以像芬蘭，大家說它是世界上最好的教育體系，而且他們做了相關的學習表現檢測也都優於英國或者美國，他們是7歲入學，這個資訊我也提供給次長參考。在未來我們做一些學前教育，到底要往前推進到多少，我覺得可能還是要回到兒童的身心發展還有學業表現上面怎樣是最適當的年紀，這才是比較理性的討論。","再來，我還是要回來討論有關於我們的公幼以及準公幼的問題，我們看到非常多的新聞都在講報不到公幼，可是事實上我認為這可能不是很精確的一個說法，因為我自己看到了在雙北的部分，臺北市就有1,570個缺額，在新北市也有2,035個缺額，而這裡面不外乎我們所理解的人口稠密區，像是板橋、永和、三峽、三重這些人口稠密區也都有缺額，為什麼會這樣？這代表相較於過去的狀況，其實已經完全不一樣，可能涉及到的是行政區裡面人口的改變、有重劃區或者交通的時間上考量都有可能。所以我想了解一件事情，教育部現在有沒有掌握，我們在2歲專班跟3到5歲這裡面的缺額，到底是缺在哪一個部分？"],["張廖次長萬堅：大概都是都會區，我們還有劃……"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們都會區現在也有……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們就全國行政區，把它劃了368個行政區，有在盤點公共化、平價教保提供的那個額……大概以80%左右，沒有的話我們就是再加強補助，如果已經超量，我們會謹慎評估。"],["張委員雅琳：但我剛剛問的問題是，到底是2歲專班缺還是3到5歲……"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然是2歲專班最缺，2歲專班現在入園率大概是64%左右，但是都會區沒有那麼高，都會區大概五十幾percent、差不多50%左右，就是2個大概只能提供1個左右。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但2歲班專班聽起來就是需求更高，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：更高。"],["張委員雅琳：更高，那我現在要問的問題是，這3,605個缺額就表示我們提供了很多的供給，可是市場的需求似乎沒有這麼多，這是這個數字上面的意義。"],["張廖次長萬堅：你的意思是現在已經超額提供就對了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，現在特別……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，所以我們……"],["張委員雅琳：板橋、永和、三峽這個地方，我簡單來說，你剛剛說切到368個區域，所以這裡面的需求其實是2歲專班更高，對嗎？我們現在看到的是，368個行政區裡面，是嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["張委員雅琳：對吧！這樣子的話，現在在人口稠密區已經發現需求沒有那麼多，可是供給這麼多，我們是不是應該重新盤點一下需求地圖？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有在重新盤點，要不要請組長簡單回應一下？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：他盤點得很清楚。"],["王組長慧秋：跟委員說明，我們現在如果以公幼招生缺額來看，基本上應該是3到5歲的話才比較會有缺額，而2歲的部分主要是因為，只要它一開放招生就滿額，所以基本上這個缺額主要應該都是3到5歲的部分，至於行政區我們會持續再做一些盤點。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想2歲專班的需求是非常旺盛的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["張委員雅琳：這個到底應該怎麼做，除了剛剛你們講的，需求地圖我們要做得很清楚之外，第二個是，我有一個提醒，因為3到5歲的時候，大家就會開始考量是不是離我家很近？教師的照顧是不是好、師資有沒有特色？這個部分我希望教育部可以調查，現在就3到5歲已經非常確定的是供給大於需求的部分，這裡面招不滿的原因到底是因為師資不符合期待還是距離不夠近，我覺得這個地方可能在需求地圖做出來之後，我們還要再去了解，因為這些地方就是有空間，就這些空間看有沒有辦法做調整，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個因素真的比較複雜，有的是真的它的量就減少，社區人口老化，就沒有那個市場。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以有時候也不見得是它本身的教學內容、設備問題，有時候是很自然因為人口的變化。"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以我說都會區裡面，是不是可以針對這些供給大於需求的學校再去了解，因為接下來還是要精進品質，過去我們是就評價的部分，接下來我們應該要進一步要求品質。"],["張廖次長萬堅：品質，從量的提供到質的提升。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯。第三個部分，我也想跟次長再來討論，我們現在已經提供的準公幼跟非營利部分，是不是有完整揭露師生比、師資流動率、裁罰紀錄、申訴案件及改善情形？這也是在品質上面希望教育部可以提升的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["張委員雅琳：畢竟我們都不希望是看到新聞之後，像這個新聞是被虐了之後，家長才知道學校有狀況、有問題，所以這部分是不是也可以把公共化的政策往前提升到讓它是有品質的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們資訊揭露目前都是依法公告，法律上規定要揭露的我們一定會揭露。至於委員提到的，有一些項目是不是應該要納入，我們會評估，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，這個評估大概是多久可以評估出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：一個月。"],["張委員雅琳：一個月，是不是？好，就是針對我剛剛講的那幾個點，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["張委員雅琳：如果不清楚的話，我們可以事後再討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，好。"],["張委員雅琳：看針對哪些部分我們還要更明確。再來，我們對於電子煙持有將罰3到10萬，但是因為菸害防治法之前宣布的時候是說一個月的時間，那我想請教在學校階段的部分，我們現在準備的狀況如何？因為可能很快地在學期開始後就會進行了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：在分工上其實裁罰機關是衛福部、應該是衛福部。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯，是衛福部。"],["張廖次長萬堅：過去學校裡面的菸害防治或者這些都是衛福部來裁罰。"],["張委員雅琳：所以今天流程上面會是怎麼樣，是衛福部要進到學校裡嗎？還是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們還要跨部會討論整個處理程序。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是我想這個部分，為什麼我今天要特別關心？除了這個問題比較嚴重，第二個部分是因為，衛福部是說法通過後一個月內，我算了一下時間，可能9月、10月就差不多到期限了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，最近應該會開會。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我覺得可能要儘快釐清我們在校園裡面的分工到底是什麼，因為家長跟老師也都會非常關心，還有學生也非常關心他的權益會不會受損。"],["張廖次長萬堅：基本上不會再讓學校去處理這些懲罰的流程。"],["張委員雅琳：對，行政事務，沒錯。"],["張廖次長萬堅：行政事務，但是如果學校在輔導管教過程裡面，被發現持有，他舉報的應該是衛福部開罰。"],["張委員雅琳：是，沒有錯。"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該是這樣，只是那個程序要怎麼走，我們兩部會再做協調。"],["張委員雅琳：程序要怎麼走，大概什麼時候你們會有一個進度呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實是衛福部在主導，所以我們會有跨部會的一個平臺，我們那個法律修了以後，大概就是半年內子法要上路嘛！對。"],["張委員雅琳：可是因為它對於持有只開放一個月的緩衝耶！我看新聞是這樣子寫。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會趕……"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，這樣子好不好？既然聽起來是跨部會的平台已經組成了，這部分我們也會再來追蹤你們的進度是什麼，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["張委員雅琳：我們大概是1個月之後會再來追蹤。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員指教，我們來努力。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。下一位是吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-18","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","吳思瑤","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳培瑜","蔡春綢","許忠信","張雅琳","翁曉玲","葛如鈞","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-06-29"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、委員邱鎮軍等20人\n擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三\n條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第\n四條條文修正草案」案；五、委員葉元之等18 人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」\n案；六、委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案；七、\n委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；八、委員\n邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案；九、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國\n民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案；十、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條\n及第二十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}