{"error":false,"id":["170173"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170173,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170173","日期":"2026-06-29","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-22-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[22],"委員會代碼:str":["教育及文化委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-06-29T12:35:13+08:00","結束時間":"2026-06-29T12:42:36+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/05a40576d455a9dbb6624f0e88a8b7627e55e861df8cbb70ad040a94c83a665455e3c685c98c6aef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"12:35:13 - 12:42:36","會議時間":"2026-06-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案。【本案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n二、審查\n(一) 委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案。\n(二) 委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(三) 國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(四) 台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(五) 委員葉元之等18人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(六) 委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(七) 委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n(八) 委員邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n(九) 委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案。\n(十) 委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n【進行詢答及逐條審查】【6月29日及7月1、2日三天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":10.814093750000001,"end":13.395968750000002,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":14.222843750000003,"end":14.83034375,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":16.31534375,"end":17.12534375,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":17.12534375,"end":39.23159375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":39.619718750000004,"end":149.76284375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":150.62346875,"end":175.80096875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":176.30721875,"end":191.44409375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":191.78159375,"end":194.09346875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":194.44784375,"end":203.89784375000002,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":204.30284375000002,"end":211.30596875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":210.58034375000003,"end":210.73221875000002,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":211.84596875000003,"end":219.23721875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":219.92909375000002,"end":231.18471875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":231.47159375,"end":236.16284375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":236.26409375000003,"end":245.42721875,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":245.42721875,"end":247.33409375000002,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":246.87846875000002,"end":247.16534375,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":247.33409375000002,"end":250.38846875000002,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":250.72596875000002,"end":254.62409375000001,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":255.18096875,"end":256.42971875,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":256.17659375,"end":278.73846875000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":261.86346875000004,"end":262.03221875,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":262.11659375,"end":262.45409375,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":278.92409375,"end":281.52284375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":281.82659375000003,"end":288.34034375000005,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":281.89409375,"end":282.67034375000003,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":284.05409375,"end":284.61096875000004,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":285.40409375,"end":286.33221875000004,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":288.44159375000004,"end":291.10784375000003,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":291.10784375000003,"end":300.89534375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":301.41846875000005,"end":313.61909375000005,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":313.80471875,"end":315.62721875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":317.31471875,"end":318.85034375000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":319.01909375,"end":319.03596875,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":319.06971875,"end":327.77721875000003,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":328.06409375000004,"end":337.64909375,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":335.64096875,"end":338.62784375,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":338.05409375000005,"end":350.10284375000003,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":350.10284375000003,"end":350.52471875000003,"speaker_score":0.836},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":350.52471875000003,"end":364.80096875000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":365.20596875,"end":369.82971875000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"吳委員沛憶","start":370.23471875,"end":377.03534375000004,"speaker_score":0.938},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","spea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我請教育部長廖萬堅次長有請次長"},{"start":17.224,"end":34.013,"text":"市長我們今天要進行的是這個有多位委員包括國民黨黨團提案關於國民教育法修法的懸答因為時間真的很短但是因為問題很多所以我希望盡量在時間之內表達第一個是這一次的這個國民黨版本要修第三第四第28條主要就是針對這個五歲幼兒園要來強迫入園"},{"start":38.576,"end":65.609,"text":"那麼我看了一下它這個裡面配套的這些相關的做法例如說立法說明裡面特別強調說它不要用學區制我目前看起來這個是完全不可行的那首先呢第一個還是先看一下我們整個政府對少子化的投入第一個106年到114年度我們一共增加了幼兒園增加了3922班我們台北市增加了446班那我們中央政府也補助各地方政府"},{"start":68.592,"end":79.104,"text":"105億3000多萬的這個費用經費要去新建了213所幼兒園其中有2億4000多萬是用在我們台北市那麼為什麼現在要來做5歲幼兒這個強迫入園呢"},{"start":81.186,"end":101.784,"text":"我們的入園率太低嗎其實我看也沒有因為目前五歲的入園率已經達到了95%所以以10年前比起來我們是提高了將近兩成反倒是兩歲專班的入園率到現在還不到六成就是說超過四成的兩歲幼兒目前是沒有入園的那麼我還是看一下第一個我覺得這個"},{"start":103.146,"end":120.423,"text":"動機違和第二個是實務上為什麼不可行第一個是說強迫入園入校就是你必須他的義務包括了說這個要普及義務那麼在這一個這個其實上屆這個立法院有講早前提出過我覺得現在的版本比上屆明顯更不可行"},{"start":120.623,"end":149.477,"text":"就是因為我剛剛講了他立法書裡面直接講說他不要用學區制會有什麼問題第一個像我們小一國民醫務教育就是強迫入學嘛所以會有分發會有學區對不對所以第一個要造冊所以我們國民教育法就是規定說造冊護證機關造冊那麼通知是誰通知鄉鎮區公所那麼如果說要強迫到5歲的話就等於新增了16萬名的新生那全國的護證機關第一個他要多造冊一次第二個全國鄉鎮區公所要多通知一次"},{"start":150.68,"end":155.426,"text":"那麼已經五歲幼兒的日元率已經達到95%以上有沒有必要再去給基層的公務員增加這一個多一個造冊多一個通知這個工作我認為這真的應該要來討論第二個不是只有通知而已還有後面的你分發以後"},{"start":168.502,"end":181.153,"text":"分發以後是不是要追蹤你現在學校小學為例他分發以後呢那如果說學生沒有去報到怎麼辦就是要有分發那個學校來去做通知的動作對不對預期會報到好那你現在沒有化學區啊如果要五歲幼兒強迫入園的話那到時候如果這個我們孩童沒有去報到的請問到時候誰來通知"},{"start":191.863,"end":218.726,"text":"你沒有化學區所以你沒有指定學校哪一個學校來通知沒有人知道完全沒有人知道再來按照我們現在強迫入學義務教育的規定除了你要追蹤分發以外萬一沒有來報到怎麼辦我們要來做加訪政府有責任既然是義務教育你要強迫入學沒有來報到你有責任要去做加訪誰來加訪這個里長里幹事或員警這個也都是有行政區有轄區的那你不分學區請問到時候是哪一區的這個里幹事"},{"start":220.047,"end":245.338,"text":"理事長要去做家訪 哪一區的員警要來協助我們教育局來去查核這不是教育局一個人的事情而已所以次長 按照現在這個版本 未來五歲如果強迫入園學生沒有來報到 誰要來去通知 誰去做家訪 次長你知道嗎按照現在強迫入學條例喔你如果是強迫入學 你修到五歲就一定要學區你不用學區 以台灣現行是沒有辦法處理"},{"start":247.492,"end":262.766,"text":"比如說他從台北市跑到郵動人口跑到台中去工作那你難道要那邊的他跑到台中去追他嗎我想這個這個沒有辦法這樣這沒有辦法執行所以因為我們這個強迫入學這個這一套制度他已經運行了超過60年了所以按照現在這個"},{"start":263.166,"end":288.122,"text":"這個版本不是只是年齡向下延伸你要強迫入學卻不要配套的學區制你等於是在發明新的一套義務教育的入學制度而這個制度該怎麼設計這個現在提案版本裡面完全都沒有說明也沒有去思考也沒有去設計所以教育部你們有責任啊你不是說到時候休一休丟給地方政府到時候我農民政局怎麼處理我區中所怎麼處理沒有人知道"},{"start":288.622,"end":314.818,"text":"對 我會在一個禮拜後提出那個評估報告裡面把它納入不可以這樣處理 然後呢 不是只有學區的問題好 就算現在有學區好了你這個年齡你只有五歲 等於大班嘛那你兩歲三歲 你沒有強迫入學好 如果這個孩子他兩歲三歲就入園了結果呢 到了五歲的時候因為你強迫入學 然後有學區制所以導致於他要指定被分發的學校不是他現在念的這個幼兒園所以他要被強迫轉學嗎"},{"start":317.349,"end":326.105,"text":"家長沒辦法自己決定嗎我就已經在讀這個已經好好讀兩年了到五歲的時候你跟我說因為是義務教育你被指定抱歉你被指定分發到另外一個幼兒園你現在要強迫轉學"},{"start":328.174,"end":332.696,"text":"是這樣嗎是這家長的權益也會受損對所以這個通通我在現在這個法案的這個版本裡面都沒有看到說這些配套怎麼處理所以實務上會產生很大的這實務上是不可行的我要講的是我們法案都可以討論義務教育要不要向下延伸這個題目可以討論但是目前我們手邊拿到這個版本它是不可行的是"},{"start":350.566,"end":369.582,"text":"不可行的東西然後要花費大家這麼多的時間然後呢部長次長等一下又答應署長又答應說請同仁再去演你這不是增加基層公務員的負擔而已我們教育部的公務員已經很忙了拜託大家在做提案的時候可不可以自己先去思考一下可行性如何"},{"start":370.322,"end":394.595,"text":"不了解你可以去問地方政府你問教育局 我們都做過明帶教育局 民政局 基層都可以來問啊不是只有教育部可以問地方政府啊民理代表不會去詢問 諮詢嗎這個就不擺明不可行的東西好 所以最後呢最後一點是我還是要拜託教育部因為比起五歲我認為兩歲專班在幼兒園是更急迫的目前政策就是朝這方面對"},{"start":395.595,"end":405.997,"text":"那因為我們現在家長都希望可以降低兩歲專班的師生比但是我總數不夠所以師生比降不下來所以總數要去增加所以我現在如果要去增設的話"},{"start":407.389,"end":430.26,"text":"如果你要增設兩歲專班跟五歲專班這個兩個同時進行會有競合性我認為兩歲專班應該要優先來出委員提的沒有錯啦我們現在目標的政策是希望能夠增加兩歲專班然後如果增加到夠了我們再開始降那個人數1比6就像我們3到5歲的部分以前15現在我們公幼或者是平家教保的那個準公幼的機制已經都降到1比12了"},{"start":430.64,"end":442.856,"text":"好這個是要拜託教育部因為我收到家長的心聲關於幼兒園其實比較關心是兩歲專班要拜託你們再繼續努力不管是兩歲專班還有零托那個也是我們要做的延托跟零托好謝謝次長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:24.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:25.768000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請教育部張廖萬堅次長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:25.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:26.068000+08:00","text":"有請次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:26.068000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:30.484000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:30.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:42.291000+08:00","text":"次長，我們今天要進行的是多位委員，包括國民黨黨團提案的國民教育法修法的詢答，因為時間真的很短，但是問題很多，我希望儘量在時限內表達完。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:42.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:47.013000+08:00","text":"第一個是這次國民黨黨團的版本要修第三條、第四條、第二十八條，主要是針對5歲幼兒要強迫入園。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:35:53.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:35:59.700000+08:00","text":"我看了一下他們的相關配套做法，譬如立法說明裡面特別強調不採學區制。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:00.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:02.461000+08:00","text":"據我目前看來，這是完全不可行的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:04.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:29.701000+08:00","text":"先看一下政府對少子化問題的投入，第一，106到114年度，幼兒園一共增加了3,922班，其中我們臺北市增加了446班；中央政府也補助各地方政府一百零五億三千多萬元的經費，興建了213所幼兒園，其中有兩億四千多萬元用在我們臺北市。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:30.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:32.084000+08:00","text":"那麼為什麼現在要來做5歲幼兒強迫入園呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:34.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:35.547000+08:00","text":"是我們的入園率太低嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:35.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:51.962000+08:00","text":"其實我看了也沒有，因為目前5歲的入園率已經達到95%，和10年前比起來，提高了將近兩成，反倒是2歲專班的入園率到現在還不到六成，也就是說，有超過四成的2歲幼兒目前是沒有入園的。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:54.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:56.146000+08:00","text":"所以第一個，我覺得這個動機違和。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:56.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:36:58.067000+08:00","text":"第二個是實務上為什麼不可行。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:36:58.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:16.805000+08:00","text":"主要是強迫入園、入校就包括普及義務，這在立法院上一屆有黨團提出過，我覺得現在的版本比上一屆明顯更不可行，就是因為我剛剛講的，它的立法說明裡面直接說不要採學區制。","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:17.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:18.065000+08:00","text":"這會有什麼問題？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:18.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:22.667000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們小一，國民義務教育就是強迫入學，會有分發、會有學區，對不對？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:22.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:28.410000+08:00","text":"所以第一個要造冊，國民教育法就是規定戶政機關要造冊，通知是誰通知？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:29.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:29.451000+08:00","text":"是鄉鎮區公所。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:30.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:42.457000+08:00","text":"如果要強迫5歲入學的話，就等於新增16萬名新生，全國戶政機關：第一個，它要多造冊一次；第二個，全國鄉鎮區公所要多通知一次。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:44.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:46.744000+08:00","text":"既然5歲幼兒的入園率已經達到95%以上，有沒有必要再去給基層公務員多增加一個造冊和通知的工作？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:46.764000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:46.864000+08:00","text":"我認為這真的應該要來討論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:37:46.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:37:48.346000+08:00","text":"第二個，不是只有通知而已，還有後面的分發。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:01.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:03.164000+08:00","text":"分發以後是不是要追蹤？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:03.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:09.369000+08:00","text":"以現在的小學為例，分發以後如果學生沒有去報到怎麼辦？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:09.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:12.572000+08:00","text":"就是要由分發的那所學校去做通知的動作對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:12.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:12.592000+08:00","text":"逾期未報到。對。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:13.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:14.133000+08:00","text":"如果5歲強迫入園沒有劃學區的話，到時候孩童沒有去報到，請問要由誰來通知？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:24.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:28.426000+08:00","text":"沒有劃學區就是沒有指定學校，哪一所學校要來通知？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:28.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:28.947000+08:00","text":"沒有人知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:29.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:30.088000+08:00","text":"完全沒有人知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:30.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:37.374000+08:00","text":"再來，按照現在強迫入學、義務教育的規定，除了要追蹤分發以外，萬一沒有來報到怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:37.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:38.615000+08:00","text":"我們要來做家訪嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:38.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:43.899000+08:00","text":"政府有責任，既然是義務教育，你要強迫入學，學生沒來報到，你就有責任去做家訪。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:43.899000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:45.160000+08:00","text":"強迫入學的話是這樣。","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:45.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:54.868000+08:00","text":"里長、里幹事和員警都是有行政區、有轄區的，不分學區的話，請問到時候是哪一區的里幹事、里長要去做家訪？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:54.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:57.529000+08:00","text":"哪一區的員警要來協助教育局查核？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:38:58.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:38:59.470000+08:00","text":"這不只是教育局自己的事情而已！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:00.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:06.733000+08:00","text":"所以次長，如果按照這個版本，未來5歲強迫入園，學生沒有來報到，誰要去通知？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:07.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:08.394000+08:00","text":"誰去做家訪？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:08.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:10.154000+08:00","text":"次長，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:10.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:18.318000+08:00","text":"按照現在的強迫入學條例，如果是強迫入學，修到5歲，就一定要學區，不採學區制，臺灣目前是沒有辦法處理的。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:18.318000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:19.445000+08:00","text":"根本沒有辦法執行嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:19.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:20.572000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:20.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:26.938000+08:00","text":"譬如流動人口，家長從臺北市跑到臺中去工作，難道要跑到臺中去追他嗎？","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:26.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:29.320000+08:00","text":"我想沒有辦法這樣子。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:29.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:29.900000+08:00","text":"這樣沒有辦法執行。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:30.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:47.433000+08:00","text":"因為強迫入學這一套制度已經運作超過60年了，按照這個版本，不是只把年齡向下延伸，要強迫入學卻不要配套的學區制，等於是在發明新的一套義務教育入學制度，而這個制度該怎麼設計？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:47.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:51.176000+08:00","text":"在這個提案版本裡面完全都沒有說明，既沒有去思考，也沒有去設計！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:51.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:54.137000+08:00","text":"所以教育部，你們有責任啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:54.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:39:59+08:00","text":"不是法律修一修就丟給地方政府，到時候民政局怎麼處理？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:39:59.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:00.301000+08:00","text":"區公所怎麼處理？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:00.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:01.102000+08:00","text":"沒有人知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:01.622000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:03.944000+08:00","text":"我們會在一個禮拜後提出的評估報告裡面把它納入。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:04.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:04.824000+08:00","text":"不可以這樣處理！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:05.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:27.818000+08:00","text":"而且不是只有學區的問題，就算現在有學區好了，這個年齡只有5歲，等於是大班，而2歲、3歲沒有強迫入學，那麼如果這個孩子2歲、3歲就入園了，結果到了5歲的時候，因為強迫入學，然後有學區制，導致他被指定分發的學校不是他現在念的這個幼兒園，所以他要被強迫轉學嗎？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:30.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:31.531000+08:00","text":"家長沒辦法自己決定嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:31.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:39.085000+08:00","text":"我就已經在這裡讀得好好的，而且讀2年了，到了5歲，你跟我說：因為是義務教育，抱歉，你被指定分發到另外一所幼兒園，你現在要被強迫轉學。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:41.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:41.194000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:41.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:41.474000+08:00","text":"這樣家長的權益也會受損。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:41.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.035000+08:00","text":"所以我在這個版本的法案裡面都沒有看到配套怎麼處理！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.335000+08:00","text":"實務上會產生很大的問題。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.495000+08:00","text":"實務上是不可行的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:43.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:44.036000+08:00","text":"我要講的是，法案我們都可以討論。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:44.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:44.496000+08:00","text":"義務教育要不要向下延伸？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:40:44.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:40:45.676000+08:00","text":"這個題目可以討論，但是目前我們手邊拿到的這個版本是不可行的！是。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:03.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:14.815000+08:00","text":"不可行的東西要花費大家這麼多時間，次長、署長又答應說要請同仁再去研議，這不是增加基層公務員的負擔而已。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:15.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:29.505000+08:00","text":"我們教育部的公務員已經很忙了，拜託大家一下，在做提案的時候可不可以自己先去思考一下可行性如何，不瞭解的話，你可以去問地方政府，你問教育局，我們都做過民代，教育局、民政局，基層都可以來問啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:30.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:32.127000+08:00","text":"不是只有教育部，也可以問地方政府啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:32.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:34.908000+08:00","text":"民意代表不會去諮詢嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:34.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:36.529000+08:00","text":"這個擺明就是不可行的東西！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:38.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:45.734000+08:00","text":"最後我還是要拜託教育部，比起5歲，我認為幼兒園2歲專班是更急迫的。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:46.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:47.595000+08:00","text":"是，目前政策就是朝這一方面，還有臨托和延托。對！","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:48.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:41:56.732000+08:00","text":"因為現在家長都希望可以降低2歲專班的師生比，但是總數不夠，師生比降不下來，所以總數要去增加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:41:57.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:06.632000+08:00","text":"因此，如果現在要增設的話，2歲專班和5歲專班同時進行會有競合性，我認為2歲專班應該要優先處理。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:06.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:07.753000+08:00","text":"委員提的沒有錯啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:08.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:23.240000+08:00","text":"我們現在的目標政策也是希望能夠增加2歲專班，如果增加到夠了，我們再開始把人數降到1比6，就像3到5歲的部分，以前是15，現在公幼或平價教保準公幼的機制已經降到1比12了。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:24.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:30.289000+08:00","text":"這個要拜託教育部，因為我收到的家長心聲，關於幼兒園其實大家比較關心的是2歲專班，拜託你們繼續努力。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:31.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:33.834000+08:00","text":"除了2歲專班，延托和臨托也是我們要做的。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"吳委員沛憶","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:35.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:35.856000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:36.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:37.498857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:37.798857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:38.798857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-06-29T12:42:39.098857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:43.956000+08:00","text":"是不是有請伍麗華委員來代理主席？謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":null,"start":"2026-06-29T12:42:44.256000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-06-29T12:42:55.113143+08:00","text":"主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員代）：現在有請羅廷瑋召委來做詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時35分）謝謝主席，我請教育部張廖萬堅次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長，我們今天要進行的是多位委員，包括國民黨黨團提案的國民教育法修法的詢答，因為時間真的很短，但是問題很多，我希望儘量在時限內表達完。","第一個是這次國民黨黨團的版本要修第三條、第四條、第二十八條，主要是針對5歲幼兒要強迫入園。我看了一下他們的相關配套做法，譬如立法說明裡面特別強調不採學區制。據我目前看來，這是完全不可行的。","先看一下政府對少子化問題的投入，第一，106到114年度，幼兒園一共增加了3,922班，其中我們臺北市增加了446班；中央政府也補助各地方政府一百零五億三千多萬元的經費，興建了213所幼兒園，其中有兩億四千多萬元用在我們臺北市。那麼為什麼現在要來做5歲幼兒強迫入園呢？是我們的入園率太低嗎？其實我看了也沒有，因為目前5歲的入園率已經達到95%，和10年前比起來，提高了將近兩成，反倒是2歲專班的入園率到現在還不到六成，也就是說，有超過四成的2歲幼兒目前是沒有入園的。所以第一個，我覺得這個動機違和。","第二個是實務上為什麼不可行。主要是強迫入園、入校就包括普及義務，這在立法院上一屆有黨團提出過，我覺得現在的版本比上一屆明顯更不可行，就是因為我剛剛講的，它的立法說明裡面直接說不要採學區制。這會有什麼問題？第一個，我們小一，國民義務教育就是強迫入學，會有分發、會有學區，對不對？所以第一個要造冊，國民教育法就是規定戶政機關要造冊，通知是誰通知？是鄉鎮區公所。如果要強迫5歲入學的話，就等於新增16萬名新生，全國戶政機關：第一個，它要多造冊一次；第二個，全國鄉鎮區公所要多通知一次。既然5歲幼兒的入園率已經達到95%以上，有沒有必要再去給基層公務員多增加一個造冊和通知的工作？我認為這真的應該要來討論。第二個，不是只有通知而已，還有後面的分發。分發以後是不是要追蹤？以現在的小學為例，分發以後如果學生沒有去報到怎麼辦？就是要由分發的那所學校去做通知的動作對不對？逾期未報到。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：如果5歲強迫入園沒有劃學區的話，到時候孩童沒有去報到，請問要由誰來通知？沒有劃學區就是沒有指定學校，哪一所學校要來通知？沒有人知道！完全沒有人知道！","再來，按照現在強迫入學、義務教育的規定，除了要追蹤分發以外，萬一沒有來報到怎麼辦？我們要來做家訪嘛！政府有責任，既然是義務教育，你要強迫入學，學生沒來報到，你就有責任去做家訪。"],["張廖次長萬堅：強迫入學的話是這樣。"],["吳委員沛憶：里長、里幹事和員警都是有行政區、有轄區的，不分學區的話，請問到時候是哪一區的里幹事、里長要去做家訪？哪一區的員警要來協助教育局查核？這不只是教育局自己的事情而已！所以次長，如果按照這個版本，未來5歲強迫入園，學生沒有來報到，誰要去通知？誰去做家訪？次長，你知道嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：按照現在的強迫入學條例，如果是強迫入學，修到5歲，就一定要學區，不採學區制，臺灣目前是沒有辦法處理的。"],["吳委員沛憶：根本沒有辦法執行嘛！對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：譬如流動人口，家長從臺北市跑到臺中去工作，難道要跑到臺中去追他嗎？我想沒有辦法這樣子。"],["吳委員沛憶：這樣沒有辦法執行。因為強迫入學這一套制度已經運作超過60年了，按照這個版本，不是只把年齡向下延伸，要強迫入學卻不要配套的學區制，等於是在發明新的一套義務教育入學制度，而這個制度該怎麼設計？在這個提案版本裡面完全都沒有說明，既沒有去思考，也沒有去設計！所以教育部，你們有責任啊！不是法律修一修就丟給地方政府，到時候民政局怎麼處理？區公所怎麼處理？沒有人知道！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會在一個禮拜後提出的評估報告裡面把它納入。"],["吳委員沛憶：不可以這樣處理！而且不是只有學區的問題，就算現在有學區好了，這個年齡只有5歲，等於是大班，而2歲、3歲沒有強迫入學，那麼如果這個孩子2歲、3歲就入園了，結果到了5歲的時候，因為強迫入學，然後有學區制，導致他被指定分發的學校不是他現在念的這個幼兒園，所以他要被強迫轉學嗎？家長沒辦法自己決定嗎？我就已經在這裡讀得好好的，而且讀2年了，到了5歲，你跟我說：因為是義務教育，抱歉，你被指定分發到另外一所幼兒園，你現在要被強迫轉學。是這樣嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：這樣家長的權益也會受損。所以我在這個版本的法案裡面都沒有看到配套怎麼處理！"],["張廖次長萬堅：實務上會產生很大的問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：實務上是不可行的！我要講的是，法案我們都可以討論。義務教育要不要向下延伸？這個題目可以討論，但是目前我們手邊拿到的這個版本是不可行的！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：不可行的東西要花費大家這麼多時間，次長、署長又答應說要請同仁再去研議，這不是增加基層公務員的負擔而已。我們教育部的公務員已經很忙了，拜託大家一下，在做提案的時候可不可以自己先去思考一下可行性如何，不瞭解的話，你可以去問地方政府，你問教育局，我們都做過民代，教育局、民政局，基層都可以來問啊！不是只有教育部，也可以問地方政府啊！民意代表不會去諮詢嗎？這個擺明就是不可行的東西！","最後我還是要拜託教育部，比起5歲，我認為幼兒園2歲專班是更急迫的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，目前政策就是朝這一方面，還有臨托和延托。"],["吳委員沛憶：對！因為現在家長都希望可以降低2歲專班的師生比，但是總數不夠，師生比降不下來，所以總數要去增加。因此，如果現在要增設的話，2歲專班和5歲專班同時進行會有競合性，我認為2歲專班應該要優先處理。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員提的沒有錯啦！我們現在的目標政策也是希望能夠增加2歲專班，如果增加到夠了，我們再開始把人數降到1比6，就像3到5歲的部分，以前是15，現在公幼或平價教保準公幼的機制已經降到1比12了。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個要拜託教育部，因為我收到的家長心聲，關於幼兒園其實大家比較關心的是2歲專班，拜託你們繼續努力。"],["張廖次長萬堅：除了2歲專班，延托和臨托也是我們要做的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","是不是有請伍麗華委員來代理主席？謝謝。"],["主席（伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員代）：現在有請羅廷瑋召委來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":184,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-18","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","吳思瑤","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","葉元之","陳培瑜","蔡春綢","許忠信","張雅琳","翁曉玲","葛如鈞","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-06-29"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「國民教育法第三條條文修正草案」案；二、委員邱鎮軍等20人\n擬具「國民教育法第三條及第四條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三\n條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；四、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國民教育法第三條及第\n四條條文修正草案」案；五、委員葉元之等18 人擬具「國民教育法第二十一條條文修正草案」\n案；六、委員邱鎮軍等22人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條及第四十八條條文修正草案」案；七、\n委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條及第二十八條條文修正草案」案；八、委員\n邱鎮軍等19人擬具「國民教育法第四十四條條文修正草案」案；九、委員林倩綺等21人擬具「國\n民教育法第十三條條文修正草案」案；十、委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具「國民教育法第三條、第四條\n及第二十八條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1155801_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}