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區域均與發言完畢 訊打結束委員邱志偉 林戴化及楊強英所提書面質詢列入記錄 刊登公報書面質詢核會及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會委員另有要求期限者從即鎖定本院委員徐以珍等17人 委員楊強英等17人委員謝一鳳等16人 委員林戴化等16人"},{"start":2233.677,"end":2240.032,"text":"委員張嘉健等18人及委員何新存等16人分別擬據公司法第387條挑明修正草案"},{"start":2242.409,"end":2266.619,"text":"3.本院委員吳秉瑞等21人拟據公司法第222條挑嚴修正查案4.本院委員鄭振淺等16人拟據公司法第160條挑嚴修正查案5.本院委員郭國倫等16人拟據公司法第165條挑嚴修正查案6.本院委員牛許廷等17人拟據公司法第387條之一及第449條挑嚴修正查案2.審查本院"},{"start":2268.103,"end":2291.153,"text":"本院委員牛啟庭等16人擬拒商業登記法第9條之一及第37條調研修正查案3審查1本院委員賴瑞榮等17人委員蔡奇昌等19人及委員鍾嘉斌等20人分別擬拒能源管理法部分調研修正查案2本院委員楊曉英等21人擬拒能源管理法第7條調研修正查案"},{"start":2294.453,"end":2316.612,"text":"3 本院委員邱益穎等17人擬拒內院管理法增訂第19條之二及第27條之一調研修正草案調研草案決議 詢答結束114年11月6日繼續審查114年11月6日星期四 討論事項1 繼續審查本院委員楊瓊英等21人 委員黃建斌等17人分別擬拒公司法第235條之一調研修正草案及"},{"start":2317.352,"end":2336.251,"text":"委員徐宜貞等17人 委員楊瓊英等17人委員謝一鳳等16人 委員林大茂等16人委員詹佳俊等18人 委員何欣淳等16人分別擬據公司法第387條條文修正草案及委員吳秉瑞等21人擬據公司法第222條條文修正草案委員鄭振淺等16人擬據公司法第160條條文修正草案"},{"start":2339.639,"end":2349.786,"text":"委員郭國文等16人擬拒公司法第165條條件修正查案委員劉許廷等17人擬拒公司法第387條之一及449條條件修正查案等12案決議"},{"start":2351.24,"end":2357.445,"text":"一 第160條 第165條 第222條及第387條條文均定定期繼續審查二 第235條之一條文委員張綺凱等人所提修正動議及附帶決議均定定期繼續審查三 增訂第387條之一條文依照委員楊瓊英 劉許廷等人所提修正動議通過通過附帶決議一項"},{"start":2376.812,"end":2389.532,"text":"是第449條條文 照委牛許廷等人提案修正通過 除句末及某年某月某日修正公佈之條文 刪除公佈二字修正為及某年某月某日修正之條文外 需照案通過"},{"start":2390.849,"end":2403.644,"text":"5.增訂第387條之一條件及第449條條件審查完略拟據審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團協商並推請楊昭吉委員瓊映於院會討論時做補充說明2."},{"start":2403.644,"end":2409.331,"text":"繼續審查本院委員牛喜庭整16人理據商業登記法第9條之一及第37條條件修正查案"},{"start":2410.609,"end":2427.802,"text":"決議一 增訂第9條之一條文 造為楊瓊英 牛許婷等人所提修正動議通過二 第37條條文 造為牛許婷等人提案修正通過其句末 即某年某月某日修正公佈之條文 刪除公佈二字修正為 即某年某月某日修正之條文外 其餘照案通過"},{"start":2428.983,"end":2456.526,"text":"3.本案審查完畢 擬拒審查報告提報院會討論 不須交到黨團協商並推請楊昭吉委員瓊英於院會討論時做補充說明3.繼續審查本院委員賴銳榮等17人委員蔡吉昌等19人委員鍾嘉斌等20人分別擬拒能源管理法部分條文修正草案及委員楊瓊英等21人擬拒能源管理法第7條條文修正草案委員邱盈盈等17人擬拒能源管理法增訂第19條之2及第27條之1條文草案等5案"},{"start":2457.807,"end":2470.694,"text":"決議所有委員提案及委員張其凱等人所提第二條 增訂第六條之一條文修正動議 禁令定期繼續審查主席宣告 本次會議審查通過這條文相關法制用語 授權主席及議事人員整理 散會 宣讀完畢我們繼續繼續進行討論事項 請一併宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2481.958,"end":2503.112,"text":"審查一 行政院行政審議 企業併購法增訂第五章之一章名及第44條之二第52條之一第54條調研修正查案二 本院委員王美惠等20人委員沈發惠等17人 委員賴惠仁等20人及委員賴銳雄等18人分別擬具企業併購法部分調研修正查案等5案 宣讀完畢"},{"start":2507.338,"end":2519.979,"text":"因為我們今天也有這個委員提案的部分那因為委員提案委員皆不在場我們現在請經濟部長公民刑部長來就委員提案跟行政院版本合併報告謝謝"},{"start":2533.772,"end":2560.485,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先生今天非常感謝貴委員會邀集相關單位共同來討論企業併購法修正草案的相關提案那麼為了活絡我國產業的發展環境協助企業突破成長的瓶頸鼓勵成立發展產業控股公司來提升國際競爭力行政院女巨企業併購法第44條之2第50"},{"start":2563.353,"end":2575.915,"text":"第二条之一第54条的修正草案那么会同各委员所拟据的企业并购法部分条文的修正草案总共有五件提案那以下来做说明"},{"start":2577.253,"end":2592.383,"text":"首先是有關於行政院增訂的44條之二的規定那麼為了鼓勵企業透過股權轉換成立產業控股公司發揮經營的忠孝那對於公司依企業併購法第29條股份的轉換方式那"},{"start":2596.025,"end":2617.848,"text":"被他寄存或者是新設的公司收購為百分之百持股的子公司而且呢收購的公司經過國家發展委員會認定為產業控股公司者那麼被收購的公司的股東呢就他讓與公司股份與產業控股公司作為對價或者是"},{"start":2619.533,"end":2645.365,"text":"抵较其成购产业控股公司股份的证券交易所得呢他可以选择不计入股份转换当年度的基本所得额那可以在实际转让产业控股公司的股份或者是该股份这个账簿划拨到这个开设有价证券的保管划拨账户的时候呢再来申报"},{"start":2646.601,"end":2666.481,"text":"那有关于申请认定为产业控股公司的程序将由国家发展委员会会同财政部来定定办法那至于像税捐基金机关申请核准要件还有程序的规定那授权财政部来定定"},{"start":2668.274,"end":2695.265,"text":"那麼有關於增訂第52條之一呢他主要是配合第44條之二的規定定定產業公司如果有違反稅捐集徵的申報的義務的罰則那另外因為本市修法還有其他的配合訂定的法規令令同時呢也修正了第54條主要修正條文實施日期由行政院來另訂之那另外有關於貴院"},{"start":2697.025,"end":2719.912,"text":"網美會委員等20人審發會委員等17人賴會委員等20人以及賴瑞榮委員等18人所提的企業併購法的修正草案那基本上跟行政院所提的草案呢大致上方向是一樣的那懇請各位委員支持並請指教以上報告"},{"start":2723.623,"end":2751.681,"text":"謝謝那我們有些部會的書面報告我們自行參閱我們並刊登公報那本日議程所列討論事項和並詢答委員詢答前依照往例做以下宣告每位委員發言五分鐘本委員五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘非本會委員十分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記我們首先第一位請林黛華委員質詢"},{"start":2755.558,"end":2758.862,"text":"那個 戴劃戴劃戴劃"},{"start":2785.157,"end":2787.618,"text":"好 主席有請部長我們請部長部長您這個剛才您的報告這個企業併購我認為你沒有兼顧到什麼叫做為中小企業量身訂做的併購這個企業併購法本期點出了這個盲點你忽略了什麼叫做以小併小"},{"start":2810.606,"end":2831.716,"text":"你忽略了小小整合成大艦隊第二個我講到我高雄金屬扣件產業的挑戰本席認為你這樣的企業併購法應該是變成企業在打群架政府當教練而不是旁觀者而也針對你的企業併購法本席提出了這樣的三跟四的這樣的配套"},{"start":2832.296,"end":2858.433,"text":"你要配到什麼呢 你這樣的產業控股公司你的控股公司跟本席的控股公司不一樣我的控股公司呢 是要幫助業界來偏研發強產業 更要雇勞工而且呢 併購也不是企業的萬靈丹拓展國際通路才是關鍵具體的要求 那本席後面再表達好 你這個盲點是什麼"},{"start":2859.053,"end":2880.908,"text":"以小並小小小整合成大艦隊是沒有的所以本席的這個控股公司應該由民間先自主的整合發現產業真正的含金量跟產業價值後本席我們的這個控股公司由政府坐東的控股公司控股公司才去跟民間已經整合好的"},{"start":2881.608,"end":2900.879,"text":"我們這三家要整合我們都不要管太多讓民間自己去整合他會知道他的技術哪裡好哪裡優哪裡不好他們整合的什麼樣的互補那我們政府的控股公司進去帶動什麼給他資金給他技術給他行銷品牌"},{"start":2902.28,"end":2910.81,"text":"這才是控股公司你整個都是講大企業那我螺絲產業我就說你們現在是這個科技業賺到報傳統產業賠到產問題是勞動人口三成才在科技產業七成是在傳統產業服務業跟農業"},{"start":2923.223,"end":2950.461,"text":"所以七成的人民並沒有感受到你國家的經濟成長這才是現在的民間跟政府 你喊的駕天響哇 我們出口多強啊 為什麼中小企業沒有辦法中部跟南部沒有辦法感受到好 我就講到聚焦我的這個螺絲產業 是我大高雄地區重要的世界冠軍當業界在討論公司併購的時候 你們都專注在哪裡大型金控跟科技聚撥 你那"},{"start":2951.221,"end":2973.367,"text":"那幾篇的四五頁我看了之後我趕快去找你們聯絡了我說你們這個好像跟怎麼會是針對大企業呢好那本行的要為基層中小企業發生我們的螺絲長手工具廠面臨的二代接班訂單破碎化國際原物料的波動的挑戰在國際經貿的衝擊下如何有效度的"},{"start":2975.408,"end":3003.482,"text":"這個過度過有效度有效的度過大公司的清洗以及跨國企業的競爭政府沒有注意到的是這些中小企業更需要的是透過小規模的水平或垂直整併來共享技術整合訂單壯大採購量以及提升國際溢價的能力所以經濟部你應該是為中小企業量身定做除破產清算之外你的"},{"start":3004.903,"end":3025.936,"text":"產業控股公司的輔導機制又是怎麼為中小企業量身定做好我們高雄金屬扣件產業的挑戰本席認為你應該是要促成企業打群架政府不是旁觀者而是要當教練高雄市全台最重要的金屬扣件的重鎮全高雄市有1500家的相關業者年產值超過900億光是我高雄的出口的金屬扣件的出口量"},{"start":3033.081,"end":3059.078,"text":"就佔全國金屬扣件的出口量的六成都來自我高雄企業缺乏的是具有含金量的生產技術低碳化、數位化、智慧化需要注入資金和投入教練可以透過企業申請專案進行協助尤其鼓勵以大帶小的模式減少單點式的能量的分散達到整合效益我這邊講的跟你們現在推的大帶小"},{"start":3060.058,"end":3087.18,"text":"還是不太一樣的這個企業併購法這項修法對扣件業者來講是一個好消息但是你要正視到我傳產面臨的三大結構性的挑戰三個第一個規模過小缺乏溢價能力第二個市場需求疲軟產業鏈的轉移第三世代接班與人才斷層這個規模過小缺乏溢價能力多數的業者為中小企業容易受到匯率的波動"},{"start":3088.061,"end":3103.891,"text":"中國低價傾銷的影響而且再加上美國對鋼鐵產品課徵的232條款還沒有落幕現在對我業者的經營壓力是非常重的就是50%以上的課稅正在進行中"},{"start":3104.751,"end":3122.504,"text":"企業市場需求疲軟高雄扣建的主力是應用在車用設備電器跟工業機械但是因為全球景氣衰退傳統的車用機械電器等產業未跟上的產家出貨高峰也就過了第三個在世代接班跟人才斷層低代的創業者邁入高齡"},{"start":3124.085,"end":3138.705,"text":"第二代的接班意願低所以如果沒有專業經理人或集團整合接手整個產業鏈恐逐漸的凋零所以本期期待的企業併購法是提供新的機制協助船長打群架"},{"start":3139.506,"end":3162.607,"text":"這個打群架是控股公司的導入它是一個幫助船長打群架的起點但政府不能只是談資本市場的併購啊你整篇的三四頁的報告就在講這個市場的併購啊你沒有講到研發的升級啊勞工的保障啊這才是你在這個併購當中應該要注意的讓中小企業感受到政府是真的他的後盾"},{"start":3163.368,"end":3188.603,"text":"好那個配套呢我認為有四項我這一頁先講三項第一個研發升級是關鍵第二個推動數位及淨零雙軸轉型第三個勞工保護要入法入條件好這個研發升級啊政府不能只讓企業變道而是要讓產品變強所以以螺絲為業力啊一般的螺絲是襯筋脈痛譬如說"},{"start":3189.784,"end":3213.636,"text":"透過國際航太的認證NASCAP的螺絲就能以單顆計價所以請經濟部在法案通過後同步擴大研發補助與技術的認證輔導由科大或法人協助企業申請國際認證建立高質化的供應鏈第二個在推動數位跟淨零雙軸的轉型企業就算有意願來併購或被併購同時也要升級"},{"start":3218.118,"end":3236.796,"text":"所以我講的 你的這個控股公司有別於你的國發基金 你的國發基金只有只有資金的挹注而已 他不講技術的輔導 他不講產品的研發 他不講品牌的形塑但是你如果按照你自己現在的這個所謂的大大小"},{"start":3237.096,"end":3262.014,"text":"你純粹是鼓勵大帶小但是呢他就只是一個比如說我3000萬你一家大的帶五家小的類似這樣的你們是有這個計畫但是這個有別於我政府用這個控股公司的時候直接主導了你民間自主都願意1加4 1加3你都敢自己投資我就加倍我就有一定比例的投資"},{"start":3263.014,"end":3283.248,"text":"這才是讓他覺得政府除了資金來的時候我又可以跟你講你技術你們這幾家技術我也負責法人進來這就是控股公司對中小企業好的地方啊所以我認為他有別於你現在的整身理企業你現在的這個專案的大大小的專案你也更有別於你的國發基金所以你這個產業這個控股公司應該是要這樣的設計好 再來"},{"start":3289.272,"end":3304.73,"text":"那這個你讓工業局跟技術組主動的下鄉輔導協助中小企業導入智慧製造跟結仁技術不要只等大公司送件要有下鄉陪伴不是只有等大公司送件就是你現在的專案的現況"},{"start":3306.031,"end":3321.809,"text":"好勞工保護要入法企業併購不應該以資遣員工作為提升競爭力的代價請經濟部與勞動部在補助條件中要納入以下的但書在你併購當中如果這個中小企業他可以自己講說我怎麼併那你們控股公司進來的時候"},{"start":3323.191,"end":3344.306,"text":"就應該要有這三個要求不得並購而大量資遣員工你可以提供優惠方案結算年之後回聘為顧問鼓勵透過數位轉型讓老師傅的經驗被AI化留存產業技術血脈也就是說透過企業自行的整隊部長跟你們的所有同仁聽好"},{"start":3345.126,"end":3372.676,"text":"本席在定義我所謂的產業控股公司透過企業自行整隊透過達到實質的以大代小的企業運作而不是專案計畫的短暫合作你們現在的專案機構大概就兩年就退場了因為就是這樣 包委員我可不可以說明一下 可能有點誤解事實上現在我們訂定的產業控股公司的想法跟目的跟委員的想法是一樣的"},{"start":3374.565,"end":3393.235,"text":"它水平或者是垂直都可以但是它原來的公司是存在的只是在這個公司上面它架一個控股公司它的可以互補比如說你要產業鏈的整合它可以有通路就把它併進來但是它上面控股它公司是存在的它不會因此而這個員工被fire掉不會的"},{"start":3394.275,"end":3419.6,"text":"因為他原來的還在只是在上面他們的資源可以互相流通可以互補我還不是講這個我希望你的還有技術還有你的資金之外還有你的行銷特別是要特別在國際通路的行銷能夠導入好所以呢政府透過企業合併的專案審查給予注入資金形同政府對傳統產業的國發基金的投入提升了"},{"start":3421.02,"end":3442.47,"text":"這個螺絲扣件業的這個再造政府不能只看到報表的併購成效而且要看到工廠裡車間的那群人怎麼一起走進升級的時代好併購不是萬靈丹國際通路才是關鍵所以工廠是投入下一世代的提升真正到市場的影響力相對比較緩慢的"},{"start":3443.59,"end":3462.795,"text":"這句話是有講到是現況你要投注下一代的提升一直到你市場有影響你是比較緩慢市場通路是螺絲扣件目前可以拓展的即時性解藥所以每個產業都需要螺絲扣件尋求不同產業的通路市場是必要的眼前的拓銷市場"},{"start":3463.815,"end":3487.378,"text":"下一世代的是提升工廠市場優先先讓舊級的這個策略找到市場的通路目前國際貿易署的市場拓銷可以積極投入市場需要的是協助幫忙這個銜接通路的市場以及行銷市場的這個轉型本期希望你們強化三點"},{"start":3488.419,"end":3506.024,"text":"第一個導正外貿協會的推廣方式你們現在外貿協會多年來在海會設立海台灣館但曝光度跟實際成交率有限那本期是希望你們能夠協助業者譬如我高雄的扣件業"},{"start":3507.344,"end":3531.133,"text":"專注的輔導我的構建業進入專業性的展覽而在這專業性的展覽當中去設立台灣館而不是五花八門的台灣館找不到特色的台灣館好例如台你要輔導我業界進入這三個因為下落業界自己去啊例如美國的拉斯維加斯的螺絲機機械設備展"},{"start":3532.293,"end":3560.316,"text":"德國的慕尼黑機器人技術展波蘭的克拉科夫的螺絲展直接對價高值買家這三個才是你真的精準對位的國際通路針對我的我的這個扣件業啊而不是讓業界自己去打拼啊那你在這邊也不設台灣管你到底整個號稱全世界一流的上中下游整合的這個扣件業只有台灣有誰知道啊"},{"start":3561.016,"end":3574.707,"text":"就只有我們自己在自嗨你要在你的臺灣館要呈現啊第二個你這個行銷通路當中打造第三軌的外交策略由產業控股公司代表國家出發與潛在的買家建立產業對話平臺請經濟入盤點"},{"start":3578.491,"end":3590.242,"text":"併購成功或升級成功的企業主動納入政府海外推廣的名單形成非紅供應鏈的出口聯盟突破中國傾銷與低價競爭第三個建立產業出口的"},{"start":3593.985,"end":3621.654,"text":"資料庫將高雄地區的扣件五金金屬加工等企業資料整合成平台協助買家快速找到供應商建立高雄製造的全球品牌形象這不是獨厚高雄而是我扣件全國的出口量高雄佔了六成所以你要特別針對高雄製造的全球品牌形象去做去做去做形塑好我具體要求"},{"start":3622.994,"end":3649.639,"text":"我具體要求這個產業是城市發展的動力引擎產業發展的穩定城市發展就能夠看到繁榮螺絲扣件讓高雄穩定發展了50年下一步的整合和轉型老幹新資如果鼓勵留下具有老經驗價值的師傅鼓勵退休年資優惠辦法同時並存所以我希望在此併扣法之後"},{"start":3650.399,"end":3671.524,"text":"你能夠從現在開始提出這三個方案這是本席要求的請經濟部一個月內提報中小企業併購輔導與研發補助配套方案第二個請產發組在兩個月內完成中小企業參與產業控股公司轉型行動方案"},{"start":3672.064,"end":3689.679,"text":"第三個請國貿局跟外貿協會於明年上半年前提出飛鴻供應鏈國際推廣計畫有別於產業控股公司明訂年度目標與成交金額好"},{"start":3690.439,"end":3712.399,"text":"再來當然本期期待的在讓併購不只是資本的整合而是產業的契機你應該併購當中是產業升級的手段不是目的強化國際競爭力的同時也要讓工人看見未來而不是讓我們的勞工成為犧牲品高雄製造要從階單國變成品牌國"},{"start":3716.403,"end":3739.131,"text":"企業競爭力不只在財報上而是在每一個師傅的身上所以政府應該讓併購不只是資本的整合而是讓企業變強勞工變穩企業變富的契機產業升級不是財源潮而是新就業的起點好就針對第七頁的具體要求部長您回應一下吧我再說明一下這個"},{"start":3740.585,"end":3767.979,"text":"產業控股不是A並B 而是A跟公司他們去做整合上面有一個控股公司我明白然後都可以做的就是委員期待的那個方向好那這三個方案你就具體提出來啊你才能夠你的控股公司不是只有那個形式啊你的技術資金行銷才會導入啊你明定的讓這個產業控股公司願意自行"},{"start":3768.759,"end":3794.559,"text":"整合的 那這三個方案 你就跟聚焦給這個控股公司KPI啊 可以嗎 可以可以好 OK 謝謝謝謝林黛華委員 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝我們先確定一事路 欸 黛華等一下先確定一事路有沒有問題有沒有問題 那個議事有沒有問題喔那一事路確定 謝謝那我們現在請鄭正謙委員資訊"},{"start":3806.783,"end":3813.625,"text":"謝謝謝主席我想請一下經濟部龔明欣部長然後請一下國發會的葉俊賢主委我們請部長跟主委"},{"start":3817.589,"end":3835.057,"text":"我先請教一下因為我看到我們經濟部跟我們國發會這邊針對我們這次的一個企業賓果法的修法都特別提到要活絡我國的產業發展環境協助企業突破成長的瓶頸然後希望能夠提升國際競爭力要打國際盃"},{"start":3836.357,"end":3865.641,"text":"那我想說 我先請教一下那個國發會葉主委 因為之前劉主委在提出這個修法的時候有特別提到國發會設定出來的目標是企業併購法之後喔預計五年內要推動至少一定規模以上的產業控股公司15家我想請教一下葉主委現在這個五年15家一定規模的產控公司目標是不是還是一樣 是"},{"start":3866.321,"end":3874.536,"text":"還是一樣我想請教一下主委如果說一樣的時候那所謂的一定規模大概是多大"},{"start":3876.708,"end":3901.534,"text":"就是基本上是一個上市櫃企業的一個規模就上市櫃企業的規模那這個部分就是我想問的當我們在講說產控公司的時候我們目前走的是強強聯合的路線還是要以大帶小的路線或者是剛剛林大偉特別提到了小小整合變成大大"},{"start":3903.183,"end":3920.934,"text":"軍艦這樣的一個概念 我們目前要初步要走的是怎麼樣的一個路線 因為如果說5年15家 說多也不多 可是說少也有一定的困難度 那你說我們基本上要走上市的路線的時候 才能夠進到這樣的一個控股公司當中 是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3921.774,"end":3943.748,"text":"基本上他那個型態就剛剛委員提到那幾個型態其實我們都沒有限制他你要強強聯手也可以或是以大代小或者是說同樣規模的公司你要一起然後有一個產控公司這樣的一個樣態我們都沒有排除只要能夠讓這一個產業能夠越大越強這個是我們的目標"},{"start":3944.69,"end":3957.167,"text":"OK 那我想說因為針對國發會在這一次那個借併購法的一個修正當中的時候國發會有一個角色是要去認定這樣子的一個過程對不對要做成一個產業的一個"},{"start":3959.75,"end":3981.797,"text":"那個控股公司當中的時候 那個國發會有一個這樣認定的一個過程的一個動作 那我想請教一下 國發會在這過程當中的時候 會 是不是會有一個去做一個輔導 前期的一個輔導 或者說有一些相關的一個制度的指引 然後協助企業在初期整合當中 去達到這樣一個目標 然後準備要怎麼做 這個"},{"start":3985.552,"end":3998.741,"text":"對 這一個部分就是說國發會會扮演輔導假如說產控公司有需要的話國發會這邊會跟經濟部一起去輔導成立這樣的一個產控公司所以你們這邊會有一個很具體的一個該賴出來"},{"start":4000.461,"end":4019.838,"text":"去做我們接下來怎麼去走到這個產業控股這部分對不對這一個部分我們還在研究但那個方向是確定的所以一定會有一個輔導的一個機制嗎因為說實話中小企業要病即使說是上市公司他們要病我就中間的困難度其實都還蠻高的因為每個"},{"start":4020.899,"end":4045.475,"text":"企業本身都有他們自己的一個主體性要怎麼去突破其實有一定的難度所以我們覺得說這個目標我覺得是好的可是我們要怎麼去做我覺得這個部分是我們可能要更細緻去處理的一個部分好不好那我接下來我想請教一下工部長因為我想這個部分因為整個主管單位是經濟部啦我相信主管機構在想說五年15家企業是經濟部給國發會的目標還是國發會自己定出來的目標"},{"start":4050.636,"end":4068.236,"text":"應該是國發會因為這個產業公股公司它不僅是不僅是製造業而已理解因為它還有旅宿或其他理解那個是涵蓋不僅是經濟部主管的範圍甚至於通路像現在大連大它是屬於物流業那"},{"start":4070.809,"end":4090.044,"text":"國發會它綜合來看可能就會選擇幾個比較有機會形成的部分先來設定一個目標那如果是這樣子的時候我想請教一下國發業主委比方說這些產業當中因為剛剛經營部長他直接講到三個不同的產業講到了幾個不同的產業包括物流 包括旅宿"},{"start":4090.925,"end":4119.794,"text":"那可能還有傳統製造我們之前講的那個工具機等等的狀態那還有哪些部分是這15家公司很可能在第一階段就會被點到的因為我相信基本上我們這個企業併購當中政府要去推竟然要打國際盃一定有一個很具體的一個方向所以我想知道說目前大概有哪些的領域可能是這一次我們的產業控股當中會被優先去點到的部分除了剛剛工部長講的那三個領域"},{"start":4120.894,"end":4147.04,"text":"其實跟委員報告其實我們在修法的時候其實有跟工協會以及一些譬如說像工具機醫療用品還有醫察以及觀光產業等都有去座談過所以他們都還蠻支持這樣的一個修法所以基本上我們也沒有說特定哪一個要優先只要說你有興趣來申請我們都會接受那另外跟委員補充一個就是說我們依照之前的一些資料發現說"},{"start":4149.321,"end":4164.374,"text":"前10年成立的產供工資只有9家而已那那個原因就是說因為那個誘因不夠所謂誘因不夠就是這一次我們修法的理解所以這是修法嘛那我們也覺得目標是好的可是要怎麼去做所以剛剛那個這個部分我可以請部長這邊公務長這邊"},{"start":4165.795,"end":4193.095,"text":"因為你剛剛有特別具體提到 因為剛剛主委沒有具體提啦你這邊還有沒有什麼其他幾個領域你覺得是 比方說我們接下來產控公司這個部分其實是比較有可能然後也是我們經濟部這邊 或者是我們國發會這邊應該要努力去協助打國際盃的報告委員 因為就是前面剛開始我去中南部去做談會嘛那的確是有工具機產業"},{"start":4194.264,"end":4214.639,"text":"明確的表達某公司他有明確的表達希望比如說工具機的那個理事長他就明確表達說希望可以推動這樣的法案那趕快可以成立一個資安控股公司因為我們工具機來講的話對全世界來講它規模太小了那如果可以整併起來的話上面有個控股公司可以打群架"},{"start":4215.279,"end":4235.746,"text":"那是对他们帮助是蛮大的那当然南部也是一样像扣欠我们扣欠业规模也都不大那每一个人每一个人特色那如果可以有一些整合合并起来的话不是真的合成一家公司而是在上面又有一家控股公司虽然每一家公司独立的但是它可以支援可以互通"},{"start":4237.287,"end":4255.126,"text":"雖然說剛剛那個葉主委這邊也提到一個狀態就是說我們除了說強強聯手之外以大代小也是一個方式或者是小小的一個整併變成一個大軍艦也是一種方式可是我覺得像在中小企業事實上在整個產業控股公司當中要扮演適合的角色其實不容易啊"},{"start":4255.886,"end":4275.865,"text":"所以我希望說經濟部這邊對於中小企業的一個照顧在整個產業控股公司當中怎麼樣扮演一個好的一個角色或者說怎麼樣能夠被併到一個產業控股公司當中的時候能夠更積極來加以輔導跟指引這是我剛為什麼一開始問這部分那我接下來我想請教因為監察員最近有針對那個經濟部葉主委可以先回去就是"},{"start":4279.968,"end":4303.614,"text":"經濟部這邊的台灣投資台灣三大方案這邊提出一個監督報告我想請教一下部長到今年的10月31號之前投資台灣三大方案的件數跟金額各自有多少據我了解這個好像這個監察院某些數字可能跟我們的計算是有點落差是不是這是我接下來我要問的問題"},{"start":4305.359,"end":4316.155,"text":"就是針對那個 到今年10月31號為止的時候 我們投資台灣三大的投資方案 總共有多少件數 合併件數有多少件"},{"start":4317.421,"end":4337.038,"text":"大概有1684家有通過審查那總金額呢總金額是2兆5534億那我想說在這部分當中的時候那麼到目前為止的時候 完成投資的家數有幾家投資金額有多少"},{"start":4338.339,"end":4357.553,"text":"917家總共是投資是超過1.16兆那整個比例呢投資廠商來講的時候比例大概佔多少因為報告委員事實上一個投資額大概都要3到5年尤其是中間又經過了這些COVID-19等等一些情況我理解這部分所以我這邊要講的狀態就是說"},{"start":4359.855,"end":4377.227,"text":"因為監察院這邊提出來的狀態就是我們的投資投資的一個廠家的數字跟投資金額大概都只有在五成左右那我們希望能夠提高然後另外一個部分就是針對您剛剛有一開始你想講的部分就是說監察院的數字跟我們經濟部這邊的數字不一樣那為什麼會不一樣"},{"start":4381.28,"end":4401.93,"text":"因為經常人這邊很具體提到就說他發現在審計當中的時候有25個案子的貸款金額超過他們投資金額的八成以上是我們上線不原本是八成其中有七個案子貸款金額超過投資金額的百分之百有嗎"},{"start":4405.919,"end":4410.505,"text":"這監察院直接提出來的具體數字我們再查詢以後發現是沒有這樣的狀況那為什麼是監察院錯還是經濟部這邊的數字"},{"start":4416.451,"end":4440.204,"text":"之前提供的不對 還是怎麼樣 所以是監察院監察錯了 是這意思嗎可能是有一些時間上的落差啦所以時間落差的問題是不是 針對這個部分我想說再請部長這邊 給本席就是有關於監察院這邊相關的時候 我們之後修正出來的數字是怎麼樣的情況 再給本席一個資料 好不好好 謝謝謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":4446.561,"end":4448.183,"text":"我們請陳廷飛委員資訊 謝謝謝謝主席 我們請部長請工部長"},{"start":4470.672,"end":4490.675,"text":"部長我想今天我們會審這個企業併購法我們是希望說我們未來企業是要打團體戰因為我們面臨關稅整個國際的挑戰那問題是當我們企業併購法通過之後我們的配套你覺得我們已經準備好了嗎"},{"start":4491.963,"end":4512.261,"text":"配套的部分就是剛剛提到的就是國防會他會有一個輔導的一個機制就是說只要有興趣的這些廠商他們有提出他們的一些需求那這個輔導機制當然如果是製造業的部分我們經濟部也會共同去協助他們在併購的過程當中"},{"start":4514.824,"end":4530.643,"text":"到底要怎麼樣去處理的部分會形成那當然就是說在這個併購完以後或者想產生控股公司完以後怎麼樣提升它的或是有一些需要補強的部分那這時候我們就會運用我們的"},{"start":4532.265,"end":4545.324,"text":"升級或轉型方案也好或是多元通路的部件也好來補充他們這個整個控股公司的可能還需要補強的部分我想這個控股公司的部分當然是國發會會去做"},{"start":4547.146,"end":4566.487,"text":"整個平坦的政治可是在我們中微小企業的四大發展困境它會面臨什麼數位轉型 經營轉型還有它的研發升級動能是不是足夠還有它的資源是不是足夠還有資金是不是足夠那這些部分呢"},{"start":4567.401,"end":4587.023,"text":"我們要怎麼來幫忙剛剛提到的就是說數位跟進行轉型本來就是我們輔導產業的這個申請轉型方案然後特別預算也有一些經費可以投入預注那至於資金不足的部分就是說它如果形成了一個控股公司以後基本上這個控股公司它"},{"start":4588.184,"end":4606.018,"text":"除了國發基金如果好的話他可以挹注之外基本上他可以上市櫃那上市櫃來講的話他就可以吸取一些募集一些資金充實他的一些資本額那重點是我們國發會跟我們經濟部我們有銜接住了嗎我們請主委"},{"start":4610.573,"end":4630.067,"text":"因為就這個部分的話我們國發會會跟經濟部一起把這樣的一個平台建立起來因為你們是前面嘛你要先協助這個控股公司來完成嘛那完成之後它的量是我們經濟部要協助嘛那這個平台的銜接很重要耶"},{"start":4630.988,"end":4647.365,"text":"所以我覺得你們應該要把這個配套這個銜接怎麼做好應該要拿出另外一個機制出來否則我們只有看到前面後面銜接不下去那我要再問諸位我們怎麼去有一個SOP這個法國的SOP呢"},{"start":4651.308,"end":4676.823,"text":"SOP第一個我們可能會開始去盤一下就是說有多少的公司來申請那我們看他的那個產業的一個性質那這個資訊怎麼到達每個產業中小企業如果他自己認為我可以扮演這個角色或是結合其他的中小企業要來打團體戰那這個部分入門要怎麼來"},{"start":4678.725,"end":4698.68,"text":"我們會利用工協會的這樣一個方式來宣導以及跟那個經濟部合作就是說從這一邊對 拓展這樣的一個資訊讓所有的中小企業以及譬如說像工具機或機械業都知道說有這樣的一個可以大家可以集合起來我們現在公司併購這個部分我覺得企業併購法過了"},{"start":4703.223,"end":4717.786,"text":"我們馬上就可以能夠往前邁進那你們這個都準備好了嗎我想我們法很快可以過大家有共識因為這個是我們現在政治關稅的時候我們要怎麼去幫忙"},{"start":4719.048,"end":4745.552,"text":"所以這很重要那你們已經準備好了嗎對 我們已經準備好了最主要的原因是因為我們在修法的過程當中其實有跟工協會都有協商過 溝通過都有協商過了他們都很支持這一個修法好 那如果法過了你們多久可以把這樣的一個所謂打團體戰的團隊跟平台能夠讓台灣的所有人民感覺到不一樣"},{"start":4746.414,"end":4750.888,"text":"我們會用最快的速度多久 對如果法過了你們預計法過了"},{"start":4754.2,"end":4763.143,"text":"第一個就是說我們這個母法過了我們還要去修執法執法預估在半年內我在講的就是這個執法你沒有執法你動不了那你執法半年半年內會把執法修完修完之後就可以往前是不是這樣子這時間很快"},{"start":4777.668,"end":4800.359,"text":"對現在美國整個關稅大家已經是恐慌那在這個恐慌當中我們團體戰我上次我們的部長到台南的時候我就跟我們部長拜託現在是要打團體戰的時候不是個別個別這種力道不足團體戰我們政府怎麼協助企業打團體戰"},{"start":4802.1,"end":4819.148,"text":"所以我們期待這個企業併購法我希望今天能夠來審理這樣的一個過程都很順利而且我們要拜託部長跟諸位因為我們這個有些委員有提案"},{"start":4820.228,"end":4837.096,"text":"你們做一些事先的溝通請我們的那個承辦人員先去溝通然後溝通完我想我們在修法的時候會更加順利好不好因為我覺得這個都是小細節所以然後我再就教於那個部長"},{"start":4838.735,"end":4863.966,"text":"部長像我們上次下去我們在講的就是整個團體債的一個過程那你有跟金工中心做一個接觸要求他們去把我們那天的結論做一個比較深執的處理嗎有有 甚至於委員提到就是說他們一家公司有不同的工廠受到傷害的時候那原來是說只有一家公司的這個補償嘛"},{"start":4865.327,"end":4880.572,"text":"但是後來我們放寬的解釋就是有多工廠 我們就一併去協助用登記的 並不是說用這家公司對 用工廠登記來看所以我們已經處理了其他的部分也都處理了"},{"start":4881.232,"end":4899.326,"text":"那在進攻中心的一個席柱當中,沒有跟他們對口,要求他們去直接,這個很重要,要拜託部長。我覺得我們下去開了座談會,就要實質的成效,那我們的企業才會有感。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝神明會召委。"},{"start":4912.068,"end":4915.976,"text":"謝謝曾委員 謝謝部長 謝謝主委我們先請張旗開委員 謝謝"},{"start":4938.82,"end":4946.005,"text":"謝謝 這麼辛苦 感冒這麼嚴重堅持這次主席會議的主席 請到鞏部長鞏局部長欸 張委員好6號啊"},{"start":4956.388,"end":4985.589,"text":"我們發生了全國第一起水上的這個光電板的這個火災在這個它也是全國最大規模的水上型光電的這個暗場在中華張濱工業區東側的這個輪位東光電廠發生了這個你看這在地上燒得非常的這個嚴重那現在聯合 你看又是聯合再生又是小動物者的禍聯合再生啊出來講啊"},{"start":4987.247,"end":5011.83,"text":"他說為什麼發生火災他說最近在現場有發現一些老鼠出沒可能是鳥吃了咬到那個電線所以起火可是就有人講那邊是潮間帶那個土非常的鬆軟又是泥濘老鼠根本就去了就陷進去了所以到現在到目前為止調查的真相是怎麼樣子 人民要真相"},{"start":5013.462,"end":5038.8,"text":"報告委員現在目前看起來應該是的確是那個電線走火啦至於是什麼原因造成這個可能由消防單位來做最後的確認跟鑑定是不是小老鼠或是什麼我們不知道不要一直都推給這個小動物小老鼠啦這是一個第二個當然真相要快因為6號就發生了嘛對不對要趕快把真相查清楚但是這個還是要消防單位來認定是比較你們要去推一下因為這是你們管的嘛"},{"start":5040.98,"end":5065.468,"text":"民眾非常關心這個案子這個案子總共98個Megawatt他現在受到傷害大概10個Megawatt就是十分之一這個對我們供電也算是很大的影響更諷刺的是什麼更諷刺的這麼大的一個火災就消防車進不去而且拉水線也太長了水線太長而且可能觸電所以到後來"},{"start":5068.548,"end":5097.179,"text":"到後來最諷刺的是什麼要我們的消防員帶著乾粉的這個滅火器進去滅火這畫面太諷刺了他大概好像一個是不是一個多小時他就已經撲滅了燒了兩個多小時所以現在兩個多小時這個就是嚴重嘛第一個他在潮間帶這個生態生態受到影響這已經是一個他有燃燒嘛對不對壺桶跟這個光電板這個燃燒第二個你用"},{"start":5098.393,"end":5120.762,"text":"你用那個煤火的時候 用那個乾粉這個老實講都是非常嚴重的第三個我們更要問九月開始你們就規定了喔他們都要提出災防的計畫書 對不對對 消防計畫 對再生能源 聯合再生他的我了解他已經提了"},{"start":5122.793,"end":5138.464,"text":"計畫書他怎麼滅火 來來來 兩個事情嘛第一個他有預防如果發生火災要怎麼辦嗎第二個如果發生火災他到底要怎麼滅火是 報告委員因為委員一直很關心這個太陽光電所以我們在丹納斯颱風通過後我們在9月"},{"start":5139.685,"end":5159.001,"text":"特別去修改電業登記規則要求所謂2MW就是2萬以上的太陽光電廠要訂災害防救計畫這是一個新的那我們現在對於未來他要有災害防救計畫我們才會核准既有的案場我們是要求他在"},{"start":5159.922,"end":5174.96,"text":"11月17日以前提出 對嘛那這個案場已經提出了 已經提了嘛對不對已經提了 那我們有 我就要問這個嘛經濟部說他已經提了嘛對不對 是那他這次如果發生火災 他到了他的災他的這個防災計畫裡面 他到底怎麼救火"},{"start":5176.448,"end":5189.219,"text":"他當然要通知當地的消防機關然後他要先自救那以這次來講他是消防車有到案場但是他的人員是透過自救來把這個火災撲滅"},{"start":5190.219,"end":5217.738,"text":"那剛才委員提到災害防救計畫那這個我們他已經提出來我們是定在11月14會邀集當地的警消單位一起去審他的災害防救計畫那過去來講確實我們對於這種案場我們一個消防的處理原則那但是我們並沒有要求業者要訂災害防救計畫那也是丹納斯颱風之後我們現在特別新增要求"},{"start":5217.998,"end":5222.88,"text":"有定是好的嘛 現在問題是不能只有做表妹嘛你這一次實際發生的就是"},{"start":5223.996,"end":5248.783,"text":"你其實消防車不麻煩嗎?水車也沒辦法,所以弄到後來他變成要抱著消防員跟業者抱著乾式的那個滅火器進去,你會同意用這樣一個方式嗎?這不會很諷刺嗎?因為他那個,我是說你用他提的那個計畫要是可行的對不對?是是,而且要延練,要延練嘛,他可能沒延練,他應該到某程度沒延練,你要問一下,要對,要嚴重的,就他的"},{"start":5249.878,"end":5271.352,"text":"你不能做表面功夫啊 他給你的計畫書要可行 對不對來來來 我給你看日本也發生過啦 日本在2019年三倉水庫連日本喔 日本本身 他本身是有那種特別的日本喔 他們的災害計畫書 人家是寫得非常清楚有特殊的消防車喔"},{"start":5273.783,"end":5293.508,"text":"他們大概100公尺 他們那個都是可以救火的可是連發生這樣的一個火災 連日本都沒辦法我就是要提醒你 第一個 你的計畫書不是拿來做好看的要不然就變成欺騙大眾啊這次實際上你發現他就沒辦法救嘛"},{"start":5294.565,"end":5322.134,"text":"對不對 可以救啦 兩個多小時啊一個多小時啦那鋪面它毀損的面積就10公尺 成10公尺就100平方公尺因為它那個系統是連在一起 一部分出問題那它整個地方要解連那所以影響比較大 但是受災起火的面積事實上只有10成10平方公尺 只有100平方公尺"},{"start":5322.874,"end":5336.949,"text":"所以經濟部認為這次還算可以控制就對了對不對我的意思是說這次在很短的時間就控制那所以我們未來當然該委員提到我們這個災害防救災害搶救我們要跟這個消防機關一起合作來檢視來精進這部分"},{"start":5338.77,"end":5361.259,"text":"那個柏定你們把那個這次聯合再生提出來的防災的這個計畫書PO到網站上面去給全民知道現在不是只有對聯合再生要這樣要求只要是水上型或者是比較大型的那個光電日本人家都有做嘛對不對全世界比較先進的國家要給大家看了好不好我告訴你如果他的計畫書寫的"},{"start":5364.059,"end":5390.976,"text":"不要都要冒這個幹本經濟魅惑的話這就麻煩了剛剛署長有提了我們會跟消防單位下去檢視他的這個防災計畫到底妥不妥適啦這個一定會啦至於說把他的文件PO在網路上這個我們可能要check一下這樣是不是有有違反什麼相關規定這個都需要救災防災啊這本來就要公開的第一個讓全民知道 第二更重要讓專家學者共同來進行"},{"start":5393.306,"end":5407.014,"text":"那個柏定這個應該是要公開的吧你覺得他有什麼任何機密見不得人要不至於吧我來確認一下是不是有這個相關規定沒有問題如果可以公開我們就來公開這一次 針對這一次"},{"start":5408.695,"end":5425.107,"text":"因為這個用乾盆這個煤火器還有現場有燃燒嘛他會造成一些污染一直朝鮮待好不好所以對於他的污染到底有多大的污染怎麼去解決這個問題你要盡快對外要公開要公布好不好這是第一點那第二個"},{"start":5426.451,"end":5450.906,"text":"原因到現在不清楚嘛要去追你跟那個消防署那邊消防局那邊要趕快把真相趕快跟民眾講現在更重要的是我剛才講的日本的計畫裡面一定都有消防他要有特殊的這個消防車你如果真的要設的話如果他連救災防止火災都做不到他就不應該設光天在那裡啊今天是不是算運氣算不錯啊燒2點清車有停對不對"},{"start":5453.34,"end":5480.936,"text":"這次黃台要再來 老實說你讓我自己給你選一個名字萬一有火災 到底要怎麼去防治要趕快去做 好不好那個計畫書不要是只有好看的抱歉 這些給我幾分鐘好不好我來問你一個上次上禮拜我跟你要的那個北門的那個案子光電那個案子 我們先來看一下光電如果要開發它整個這個環境影響的機合機制現在有三層嘛 對不對"},{"start":5483.059,"end":5507.995,"text":"最鬆散的是地方說明會接下來是環境跟社會的檢核機制跟著來是環評對社會對環境影響衝擊越大就應該審查的這個嚴格密度要越強對不對對嘛齁好 最後你要看一下你來看 我給你看下一個圖來"},{"start":5509.551,"end":5537.652,"text":"右邊這個是室內的這個漁電共生左邊啦是室外的漁電共生室內的面積 你看 更大而且他在影響評估 影響 環境影響是大的你看左邊如果是台南 如果是出生在黑邊皮路啊左邊他可能還可以飛進去對不對右邊根本進不去啊而且開發的強度室內的是多少下一張 80%"},{"start":5540.541,"end":5556.043,"text":"室外最多只能蓋40%所以開發的強度跟跟對環境影響是不是室內的比較大對不對結果你們現在回了我一個文啊現在只要是室內的漁電共生現在連最鬆散的"},{"start":5557.236,"end":5577.65,"text":"地方說明 環社 檢核 全部都沒有說這樣好不好利而且民眾來陳情說什麼在我家旁邊整個社區被光電板一直包圍起來了連說明會都沒辦耶然後我們上去查我們幫他上去查不管是台南市政府或者是你們網站上面"},{"start":5578.49,"end":5593.357,"text":"也不行那個光電板包圍在什麼地方因為地面設施這個地面已經被使用掉了所以不會跟太陽能面板不會跟真地因為它已經是有一個寄存的地面設施存在了只是在這個地面設施上面"},{"start":5594.717,"end":5616.798,"text":"那個地很多就是餘溫嘛 只是他都蓋了一個室內嘛 對不對啊室外已經以前 連審計部都已經 審計部都已經 審計部都已經糾正說你們要注意 環境受影響 啊現在市長他還是通過的部長我知道那個 抱歉因為後面有人要質詢 我怕他 怕時間 我現在要簡單跟你講兩個重要觀念第一個我們讓民眾知道 現在我上禮拜問你 說你後來給我資料嘛"},{"start":5620.769,"end":5633.919,"text":"我滿你做一件事情讓民眾知道你要用地圖的方式呈現說他旁邊到底哪個地方有光電板好不好這要趕快做民眾你家旁邊出現一堆的光電板像這個北門這開發案186公頃"},{"start":5637.797,"end":5653.143,"text":"如果是你的話你會不會緊張啊旁邊你的周遭社區186公頃喔所以你要讓民眾可以知道第二個就我剛講的檢討一下室內的那個漁電共生不要連地方的說明都沒有趕快去訂好不好謝謝謝謝謝謝張基凱委員執訓謝謝謝謝部長我們現在請就議委員執訓"},{"start":5671.897,"end":5695.23,"text":"謝謝 突然間跟主席講謝謝主席 我請一下公務部長這掃聲好像會斷念卓文好部長好 部長這個我想我們今天在討論這個企業併購法 是的那就直接來跟您請教這個行政院在八月的時候真的這掃聲也斷念"},{"start":5700.242,"end":5701.769,"text":"有有我剛有喝了有有有謝謝謝謝感謝感謝"},{"start":5710.255,"end":5730.858,"text":"這個行政院在8月的時候通過企業併購法那我想導入所謂的延後課稅這樣的一個機制這個部長我想請教延後不課稅這個機制利益是良好但實際上在執行面上是不是我們會遇到相當多的困難比如說我們現在講的這個"},{"start":5732.498,"end":5749.667,"text":"企業併購會不會只有大型的企業用得起因為他中間牽扯到很多繁複的所謂的會計師的處理啦跟跨部會的審查這個跨部會基本上在行政流程上面就會造成相當大的困擾因為他必須要先通過國發會"},{"start":5752.388,"end":5769.094,"text":"的認定他有產業控股公司然後再來是財政部要來申請跟財政部申請核准最後才是由經濟部負責產業的輔導你要跨這三個部會不然我其實良心講這三個部會其實是國內最難搞的三個部會"},{"start":5773.675,"end":5787.351,"text":"不會啦 經濟部不會你當然這樣講啊 因為你擔任過兩個啊所以你當然講不會啊但是你當然講稅的東西財政部就咬得很死啊 咬得很緊啊財政部我就不敢保證那你那個延後課稅蛤 什麼 你剛剛說什麼"},{"start":5788.712,"end":5807.99,"text":"財政部我就不敢保證對嘛我就說嘛你自己擔任過兩個部會所以你知道這兩個部會其實也沒那麼好搞啊在審查的部分其實他是非常的繁瑣在稅制的認定上面其實財政部是咬得很死啊連你自己都講說你都不敢保證財政部所以你這個"},{"start":5809.468,"end":5828.764,"text":"我先馬上問完 你再以併回答 好不好說你這個包括我們要股權重估要聘請律師 要聘請會計師所謂的顧問等等這個費用動輒就要上百萬那對中小企業而言它其實是一個很沉重的負擔那這件事情我們應該如何解決第二"},{"start":5829.645,"end":5853.531,"text":"中南部很多的中小企業其實他是有包含廠房的那在這個交易的過程裡頭會不會他的廠房其實他並沒有實質的買賣這個土地但是因為股權的這樣的一個轉換會不會在財政部的科稅認定上面認為他的土地他的產房其實是有轉手然後又要來科房地合一稅在稅制的的這個科科上面"},{"start":5855.345,"end":5869.861,"text":"會不會產生一個極大的落差來 部長請說明報告委員剛好我是覺得現在的這個緩客的機制反而是幫對中小企業是很大的幫忙因為中小企業它的財力比較"},{"start":5870.862,"end":5890.343,"text":"不是那麼雄厚嘛所以他成立產業控股公司如果當下他就必須這個因為證券交易的股權交換他就產生所得的話他就馬上要繳稅那這樣的話他根本沒有那個現金可以去繳這個稅啊所以就產生了這個併購上或者是產業控股公司組成的困難"},{"start":5891.224,"end":5911.222,"text":"所以那就变成就是说好你在股权交换这一个产业控股成立以后你暂时不用缴一直到因为你现在的股份已经换成控股公司的这个股份那等到你这个把这个控股公司的这个股份你真的要卖掉的时候你真的有实值所得的时候这时候再来缴税"},{"start":5912.663,"end":5930.93,"text":"等於是去除了你講的這部分我理解所以我想這個延後課稅主要也是要處理這個部分嘛那我剛剛提的第二個問題是產房的部分福島的部分那剛剛事實上業主也有講因為這個方案執法通過以後他們就會組成一個類似福島的機制"},{"start":5932.33,"end":5949.388,"text":"那這個輔導機制當然包括類似輔導機制是怎樣你們會成立一個專案的窗口嗎專責的窗口來協助嗎會會會那這個專責的窗口裡頭是只有國發會的人還是只有經濟部不會不會三個部會都有包括財政部還有那如果這個案子是比如說"},{"start":5950.129,"end":5974.178,"text":"它是屬於旅宿業的話那可能是交通部也要進來類似這樣那經濟部是因為經濟部有主管產業範圍嘛屬於我們產業範圍我們就會進來協助這個機制往前推那我剛剛問到那個產房的部分呢在土地交易上面它其實並沒有實質的買賣產房所以它會不會造成房地合一稅上面再去扣課它如果支持控股公司成立的話理論上是不會產生所得的課稅的"},{"start":5975.678,"end":6003.774,"text":"我想這個部分可能有大部分的中小企業他們還是在我們的這個延後課稅上面到底含不含他的廠房交易或者是對於如果是廠房認定的部分大家還是有疑慮包括我看到有一些專家學者其實比如說國內大型的這些會計師事務所他們都對於這個部分提出了質疑所以我想這個部分可能需要政府要對外去說明清楚"},{"start":6005.274,"end":6031.606,"text":"財政部有沒有人財政部經理有沒有人來副署長是不是幫忙說明一下我的認識應該是不會但是我就不曉得是副稅署嗎副署長嗎來副署長來請說明一下好不好跟委員報告這個法案是處理這個產控公司他在籌組的過程他的證券交易所的部分可以緩克那至於說他的廠房的部分因為他另外是涉及我們所得稅法針對於房地合一"},{"start":6032.446,"end":6052.699,"text":"科稅的部分那邊所得稅法那邊有另外他認定他廠房的交易達到什麼樣的程度的時候會視為房地交易的部分那個是在所得稅法規定那這個法案契約併供法沒有處理那個情況那那個情況會在所得稅法那邊去做規範"},{"start":6053.359,"end":6073.04,"text":"我覺得你現在講的部分我理解啦但是我覺得細節施行的部分你們可能還是要去更細部的去了解因為你講的只是控股但是很多的中小企業它其實是有廠房的那廠房的部分是怎麼計算這個可能你們現在只講到股權"},{"start":6074.241,"end":6096.066,"text":"的部分你沒有去想到他的整個你要控股你一定是管理這個公司嘛對不對那這個公司他有廠房的部分那個稅責是要怎麼計算可能這個所以我才會講說是不是你們的單一窗口包括怎麼執行包括應該怎麼協助那這個單一窗口是不是要盡速的成立然後讓"},{"start":6096.986,"end":6110.448,"text":"有需要的在我們在推動這個所謂的企業併購的時候其實讓大家有知道我有哪一個窗口去徵詢我有哪一個方向可以去了解來部長這個能不能盡速去成立"},{"start":6111.11,"end":6133.187,"text":"可以啊 可以啊 就是我們在如果母法通過以後可能國發會還有六個月要修執法但是這期間 我想我們這些輔導機制就把它成立起來好了 因為我們母法通過你們還有六個月的時間去處理執法所以我想這個部分其實也是一併納入考量主席 我時間到了"},{"start":6135.094,"end":6159.288,"text":"好啦那好沒關係我本來還有第二題要問一下那個關稅談判的部分部長我簡單問一下然後如果時間不夠您再麻煩書面回答我想這個第五輪的談判差不多了是不是也差不多了那到底什麼時候會簽那這個談判對於南部的產業是不是能夠直接受惠我想南部在這一波的這個所謂的關稅議題上面其實"},{"start":6161.869,"end":6187.674,"text":"受到的影響非常的巨大啦那政府我們當然提出了一些輔導措施當然提出了一些補救措施但是真正的在關稅簽下去之後能不能直接受惠南部的產業而不是讓他藉由國家的輔導來持續的苟延殘喘下去這一點是我想聽到經濟部的具體的做法如果今天沒有時間回答是不是再請這個給本席一個書面答覆好不好 謝謝"},{"start":6190.274,"end":6213.759,"text":"謝謝邱瑩委員 謝謝謝謝部長我們請鄭天才委員質詢主席各位有請部長請部長"},{"start":6222.004,"end":6241.966,"text":"這位好部長好今天企業併購法主要就是為了活絡我國產業發展環境協助我國企業突破成長的瓶頸這裡面也特別提到我國企業面臨美國關稅政策的影響"},{"start":6243.078,"end":6266.728,"text":"所以這個是等一下我看也是時間的關係 因為等一下還有一個議題啦也是這個相關的書面因為現在預算也通過了嘛 預算也通過了那這個對於這個預算你們是要開始執行呢還是說已經在執行呢這個執行的方向規劃這幾個書面啦好的"},{"start":6269.585,"end":6288.108,"text":"好那這樣今天這個大家都也謝謝這個經濟部能夠提出這樣的一個修正當然就修正的重點我就不多說了這個大家都知道了好主要還是鳳凰颱風來襲這個鳳凰颱風這個距離台灣其實還很遠喔還很遠但是這個"},{"start":6298.988,"end":6305.305,"text":"我們的林業署這個馬太安驗射服警報紅色警戒"},{"start":6307.063,"end":6334.129,"text":"這個未來24小時累積降雨量一估值已達200毫米以上發布紅色警戒所以請下游就包括萬隆鄉鳳林鎮尤其是光復鄉等警戒範圍民眾立即配合政府的疏散撤離及收容等避難作業現在都是提早因應了剛剛有看到其實還很遠"},{"start":6337.064,"end":6365.146,"text":"按照這個氣象中央氣象局氣象署的這個資料現在只是一個還黃色而已就已亮還是黃色而已但是現在都是提早因應所以也做了一個撤離計畫鳳凰颱風的撤離計畫這個剛才還特別去聯絡中午之後就要撤離了"},{"start":6366.625,"end":6378.476,"text":"中午之後就要撤離距離到台灣一直到14號所以要撤離四天"},{"start":6379.89,"end":6405.529,"text":"所以這個我為什麼要提這個不是要去懷疑他們的不是大家需要提早因應那跟這個這個特別用這個這個媒體的報導用這個這張照片這裡做了一個相公所也都做要撤離到哪裡多多因應了因為上次有這樣的一個慘痛的經驗所以大家因應提早因應"},{"start":6407.987,"end":6436.445,"text":"現在就是回到經濟部負責的提防怎麼樣不要讓這些洪水土石再侵襲到社區 涉及到部落家戶這個部分 尤其是人員所以在9月23號發生重大災害之後"},{"start":6437.884,"end":6466.656,"text":"經濟部水利署很快的做了臨時的提防這個有三道防線在10月5號就完成了這個非常重要的當然除了這個之外你們也做了相關的這些緊急輸進的工程相關這些緊急輸進這些都做了"},{"start":6472.698,"end":6477.263,"text":"尤其是到明年的4月"},{"start":6478.973,"end":6496.656,"text":"到了明年的4月要完成這個堤防復建工程在這樣的一個情形之下那現在是11月如果能夠提早更好當然如此如實的完成是更重要現在就是這樣這個因為霸體還沒有開挖農業部的規劃是"},{"start":6508.257,"end":6535.211,"text":"有兩個方案他如果啟動之後也要200個工作天了他如果啟動他的規劃要去開發霸體的話也要200個工作天所以你這裡就會很重要所以你們要跟這個經濟部水利署必須要跟這個農業部林業署"},{"start":6536.437,"end":6562.266,"text":"去了解說這個現在的顏色腐的水量然後如果超豪雨的時候那當然如果又潰壩或溢流那我們的堤防現在已經輸菌了然後堤防也做了這個臨時堤防"},{"start":6565.531,"end":6589.767,"text":"現在也在做這個 開始要做這個鐵防復建工程 我們就以明年的四月防汛期之前如果完成或是更早完成以現在的菸攝乎的水量好雨的時候到底是不是就可以堵住就會跟這個"},{"start":6591.072,"end":6619.404,"text":"要不要撤離會有關係這個部分是很專業的要評估的所以這個部分就要請這個經濟部水利署要去跟農業部要去會商當然還要找專家寫者專業的團隊去評估我們就以今天做例子今天他中午之後要開始撤離"},{"start":6621.156,"end":6644.123,"text":"就變成要到14號如果每一次都這樣的話對人民對學生今天又要停班停課了已經宣布了光復鄉如果今天就停班停課那一定要到14號啊就會造成這樣我們要怎麼樣去做這樣的一個專業團隊的去評估去去因應"},{"start":6649.941,"end":6660.718,"text":"可以嗎可以可以現在跨部會甚至於包括行政院我們有一個跨部會一個平台一個群組每天都互通訊息"},{"start":6662.513,"end":6681.947,"text":"農業部他會監控整個馬太安那邊的狀況那我們下游應該是怎麼因應那也因為這樣所以為什麼會說現在就要開始疏散因為按照預估起來理論上應該會超過200毫米理論上那這樣的話先去因為最快"},{"start":6683.587,"end":6704.555,"text":"明天中午就可能會有陸上颱風警報所以等於是提前因為它這個形狀又是像是丹納斯過去那種路徑對台灣人來講傷害是比較大的所以免不了一定要提前來做因應好 非常謝謝 加油 謝謝謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員 現在請張家軍委員謝謝部長"},{"start":6720.188,"end":6723.592,"text":"謝謝主席我想請工部長我們請部長"},{"start":6727.777,"end":6750.857,"text":"部長鳳凰颱風 早安鳳凰颱風現在已經確定往台灣靠近氣象署預計今天到舟山是影響最明顯的時候幾乎全台都有非常高的機率進入暴風圈這幾天台電也對外說明說已經超前部署超過4000名搶修人力"},{"start":6751.317,"end":6779.845,"text":"然後2800多輛的這個搶修車輛包括還有1700多台的機具還有甚至會用無人機無人機喔協助巡查那會全力的防台確保供電這一點是部長所指示的嗎是是是我們事前就有這樣相關的一些準備了SOP馬上尤其是這一次他的路徑又是類似就是從從南然後往"},{"start":6780.752,"end":6803.76,"text":"西南往東北走 對台灣來講等於是他沒有中央山脈的屏障可能對台灣的影響比較大那本席當然希望颱風不要來也不要停電但是如果真的發生停電社會一方面會期待台電趕快搶修復電但另外一方面本席也擔心說第一線的人員的安全"},{"start":6804.38,"end":6821.721,"text":"包括工時的壓力那前陣子當然喔也很不幸喔有因為搶休這個離世的我們的工作人員那也有媒體整理喔過去10年喔颱風搶休造成至少台電喔有11個員工死亡"},{"start":6822.222,"end":6845.122,"text":"三十幾人受傷那很多都是在風雨中甚至在半夜趕工的時候發生的這公安事件我不曉得部長是不是有所掌握或者是有沒有什麼樣的預防措施呢事實上我每次跟台電員工講說搶修電力當然是重要但是第一個一定是員工的同仁的安全那是第一"},{"start":6846.323,"end":6855.687,"text":"不要因為這個搶休而去真的去冒險這個是最重要重中之重我想台電也會會"},{"start":6859.079,"end":6880.18,"text":"謹慎的讓這些員工的安全還是擺在最重要的第一步那本席在這裡也提醒部長包括台電就是說預防勝於治療是不是在那些高風險會發生的地區就是能夠事先先做預防那我覺得防災如果能夠做好也會減少他們搶休時候的危險"},{"start":6881.221,"end":6910.921,"text":"是所以上次的丹納斯颱風的特別預算我們就有會針對上一次的風災可能造成比較脆弱的地區比較那我們會加強來做一些補強好這點請部長就是能夠去關心那另外我想要請教部長的是曾經有工會反映基層人員超時工作那當然了這個搶修的時候真的很多時候是沒辦法你現在不修好你不再多一點時間就是修不好"},{"start":6911.361,"end":6935.947,"text":"那是不是能夠有實質的回饋呢請問就是部長這邊 至於這樣的訴求是否有一個具體的規劃呢加班本身就有額外的津貼嘛 對不對搶休津貼嘛 我請那個搶休津貼 那有危險津貼嗎 或者是可以補假嗎有 報告委員 如果是颱風出行的話他大概是可以領原來薪水的三倍 然後他還可以補休"},{"start":6936.935,"end":6954.217,"text":"就是可以領原來薪水的三倍然後還可以補休那原來薪水是用你是用終點算還是用日子算因為他搶救多少小時我們就按多少小時算好我覺得這是有需要的如果有機會的話當然還是希望能夠多多"},{"start":6955.177,"end":6982.371,"text":"給他們多一點實質的獎勵你說三倍 或者是四倍 或者是再加倍就是說讓他們在風雨中包括這是一個非常高危險的工作能夠讓他們更有保障 然後能夠補休的部分也能夠盡快盡可能的更寬裕一點啦 因為畢竟喔在您之前喔 還是有官員說就是面對這個訴求的時候 說受不了可以離開"},{"start":6984.153,"end":7004.729,"text":"不會啦 就是說除了這個之外就是剛剛講的這是嚴重打擊了基層的士氣所以部長我很期待說您藉這一次的機會能夠公開喊話讓這些基層的士氣喔能夠提振起來而且經濟部用最堅定的態度作為這些台電基層員工的後盾"},{"start":7005.029,"end":7031.272,"text":"是一定是的我也是講說台電是國家最重要的這個國營事業所以除了這些加班增加經費之外那今年我們給他的這個加薪也提高到3.5比公務人員還多一點那也是因為台電公司或者是這幾家國營事業今年是特別辛苦那我們也感謝他們"},{"start":7032.132,"end":7054.338,"text":"那本席在這裡還是要再提醒部長你整個能源結構如果不調整的話台電的財務狀況不變好的話其實也影響他們員工的權益所以這是牽一髮動全身所以也希望部長在這個能源政策的規劃上還有未來的這個長期的願景能夠為台電的這個財務狀況來做一個審慎評估"},{"start":7060.74,"end":7085.019,"text":"謝謝 會的那另外呢 工部長就是這一次非洲豬瘟的出現行政院第一個反應不是檢查這個國內防疫的漏洞反而是把炮口轉向境外的電商然後說這個小包裹就是最大的破口指的就是淘寶 拼多多等平台那透過這個小包裹的寄送商品之內可能有夾帶著"},{"start":7086.56,"end":7096.727,"text":"不應該進來的東西那行政院現在下令說這些平台要限期落地請問這個限期期限到底是多少是30天60天還是還沒有具體的時程呢"},{"start":7100.219,"end":7122.412,"text":"現在的做法是沒有這樣的規劃因為我們跟陸委會也做了一些討論還沒有這樣的規劃因為電商如果要所以這只是喊話不用擔心是嗎電商如果要希望他在台灣落地那我們也希望我們的電商可以去中國落地但是現在是沒有這樣的談判所以本席要告訴你的是"},{"start":7123.976,"end":7143.661,"text":"禁止除以養豬才是落實保衛這些豬農包括這些豬隻不受非洲豬瘟影響所以這一點您理解嗎 您贊成嗎現在農業部據我了解農業部已經暫時就是沒有要用除以養豬了"},{"start":7144.781,"end":7166.401,"text":"但是希望是長期性的希望是長期性的否則你這個破口太大啦你只要禁止屬於養豬你可以非常大程度的將這個非洲豬瘟的傳染降到最低就反而是你的這個邊境管理你可以不用那麼的擔憂你知道嗎如果假設這個口把它堵住了"},{"start":7166.741,"end":7182.971,"text":"你的邊境管理就算有一些小小的破口但是他進不到豬的這個飼養系統來就相對的保護了這些豬隻啊是 我想農業部一定會妥善的所以您也支持禁止廚餘養豬嗎 您個人我想配套說是要做好"},{"start":7183.531,"end":7201.21,"text":"那現在就是暫時性的沒有這樣希望就是經濟部也能夠呼籲農業部跟我們這個中央喔能夠永久的禁止廚餘養豬因為這個才是真正能夠防堵非洲豬瘟最好的方法"},{"start":7203.328,"end":7221.311,"text":"支持嗎支持我這個還是農業部的全責啦也希望你們也是要跨部會多多的這個交流啦因為這個影響很大不是只有影響農業部你經濟部所管的其他的產業也都會發生問題啊知道嗎知道嗎是謝謝謝謝我們現在請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":7239.109,"end":7242.991,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言邀請部長 龔部長 請部長楊委員早 早好我們來討論我們的產業升級 是的產業要升級 整合是關鍵我們看到現在本席也提案企業併購法"},{"start":7264.281,"end":7283.352,"text":"但是我們看到如果我們沒有調整內容可能會成為企業重組產業控股公司的最大的障礙也就是股東以舊股來換新股他手上還沒有得到現金啊那但是呢依照證交法他必須要課所得稅"},{"start":7284.252,"end":7296.626,"text":"他必須要課所的稅那會嚴重的影響到整個併購的這個意願整個併購的意願所以本席提出這樣的修法是希望讓股東的稅務他延後到實際轉讓股票獲得現金的時候才來申報"},{"start":7304.855,"end":7317.398,"text":"我們的目的是希望有效的來活絡整個產業的發展協助企業突破成長的這個瓶頸加速我們打造跟國際鏈結重要的國家競爭力的這個國家隊請教部長你的看法"},{"start":7324.357,"end":7335.523,"text":"是 謝謝委員的這個提出來這樣的一個方案我們行政院剛好跟委員的方向上是一致的方向一致 對 非常感謝那所以 因為之前的這個國防會主委"},{"start":7339.625,"end":7367.984,"text":"部長他也一再說我們希望要打造國家隊那同時我們也希望成立較大型的控股公司跟世界來鏈接那所以相關細節的部分我們待會在法案討論的時候我們繼續朝這個方向來討論我們兩方的意見是一致的嗎好那我們希望讓我們整個企業在併購方面可以更加有量能接下來本席要跟你討論"},{"start":7369.485,"end":7395.775,"text":"過去蔡政府為了要貫徹非核家園的理念他用綠能以綠能來轉型為國家的這個方向但是呢 我們看到投入了巨額的這個資源 不管是光電 風電這一些的綠能呢 它成本很高那同時 這全世界在推動但是我們發覺台灣很奇怪的一件事情 閉岸連連"},{"start":7397.318,"end":7424.914,"text":"大家看到媒體真的是是怎麼會如此呢在這樣的情況之下會導致我們的供電不穩民怨一直來累積尤其在8月23號舉行的河山公投案通過同一票大於領先434萬票比151萬票那顯示我們民意對於能源政策它是有轉向的"},{"start":7426.135,"end":7431.139,"text":"那所以呢但是我看到說11月7號媒體的報導總統先生說召見您來討論這個能源的方向那請教喔在媒體報導上面說總統指示您2027年要處理核酸重啟的問題甚至說不要再搞綠電那引發了社會很大的一個划然那所以"},{"start":7455.458,"end":7481.665,"text":"即便政府事後呢 府方事後也否認了喔但是這樣子的一個政策足以證明民進黨對於能源政策呢它是不穩定的而且隨時在轉向所以首先本校請問部長你是否有接獲總統或者府方高層來談論河山重啟的具體指示 請說明我想"},{"start":7483.005,"end":7509.358,"text":"這一則新聞我們經濟部也回應說沒有這回事了那跟委員報告經濟部的政策上的推動第一個一定是依法行政如果有這個法讓我們可以依循我們就這個法那另外一個就是說總統政見轉化成政策的時候我們就會落實包括您剛才提到的可能多元利潤的發展這個還是會持續的發展下去"},{"start":7509.998,"end":7533.636,"text":"還是會持續發展下去 至於您剛才提到核三核二那個主要是因為法給我們有一個依據我們依法來行政所以依法行政跟總統政見的落實這個是我們最重要兩個主軸的推動不會因此而說會互相的尷尬所以再請教總統先生有沒有跟你討論核二核三"},{"start":7535.543,"end":7550.293,"text":"沒有的方向跟時程沒有沒有對現在這麼重大總統先生沒跟討論你是部長到現在為止的狀況就是台電公司把現況的評估報告已經送到"},{"start":7551.113,"end":7566.745,"text":"因為核管法在立法院三讀通過嘛你也答應本席說一個月內就是這個月底嘛你們會提出嘛這個月底你們會將評估是否要簽核對是否要簽核在11月底要簽要是否簽核要給出社會大眾一個答案所以這個要加緊腳步但是我們看到從剛開始的非核家園也就是大家說的神主派"},{"start":7579.255,"end":7595.227,"text":"一直到核二核三在五月份的時候正式終止一直到郭部長您前任的郭部長他說開放的態度面對新的技術在核能方面到目前為止您所謂的這個月底會提出是否審核定這個目前是目前如此所以本席要請教你們非核家園"},{"start":7608.636,"end":7626.621,"text":"還是神主牌嗎報告委員 這個所謂的飛蛾家園 它是說因為所有的機組運轉 當年都是40年40年就一定要到期 不能再運轉本期已經告訴你 就在5月份的時候就停了嘛 終止了所以本期要請教 這麼多的轉彎"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7656.086,"text":"請教那你在這個目前為止你所接獲的訊息非核家園還是目前執政黨的神主牌嗎報告委員我們之前講過經濟部還是依法行政當初這個法沒改你40年運作到期你就是要非核但是現在法已經改了給我們一個依法行政的依據就按照這個法來進行按照這個法那請教部長"},{"start":7657.108,"end":7660.725,"text":"重啟核電 您的執行方向是什麼呢"},{"start":7661.718,"end":7690.048,"text":"現在就是我們還在現況評估我們在做審核嘛如果這審核獲得通過的話他 台電公司就會啟動後續的一系列的這個自我安全檢查啦或是再運轉的評估計畫啊等等好 你這麼答詢我們這一個議題我們做一個總結也就是到目前為止總統先生沒有跟你討論過核二核三重啟的議題是不是本席的解讀正確呢"},{"start":7690.848,"end":7718.629,"text":"他沒有跟我講說什麼時候因為他上面講說沒有講什麼時候 那也沒有討論我們是叫那個叫做什麼因應氣候變遷委員會裡面是大家有提到這個議題啦大家是誰包括那時候的顧問應該是那個顧問是誰啊本席請教的是總統先生有沒有跟你討論過核二核三重啟的議題在那個會議裡面他們有裁示"},{"start":7719.724,"end":7732.129,"text":"沒有裁釋是大家在討論但是他沒有裁釋他也沒有個別召見您去討論核二核三的議題到目前為止還沒有嗎好謝謝接下來最後一個議題給你喔也就是產發署我拜託你跟本席建議喔因為IPAS這個議題喔那我們也知道在這個月底你們就要公佈"},{"start":7746.334,"end":7754.944,"text":"IPAS的現在目前坊間認為有四大的缺失第一個就是測驗設計不良考題文字歸於冗長那初級的官方題庫與教材不足這是第一個問題"},{"start":7763.914,"end":7767.299,"text":"第二個體系設計問題上路一年他只有初級跟中級的測驗他沒有高級高級到目前為止還沒有辦法開這是第二個議題導致我們人才分級跟晉升制度形同虛設"},{"start":7779.796,"end":7790.359,"text":"第三個議題也就是認證的一個公信力低落因為你初級照理講是應該是終身有效但是現在全民普及以及AI的理念實務上我們卻反映出你把初級當為中高級的測驗"},{"start":7796.841,"end":7802.448,"text":"所以等於人家拿了滿手的國際認證他認為呢 這些精兵認為參加我們的IPAS的都認為是讓全民要放棄那最後一項也就是透明度不足因為月底你們就要公布他通不通過"},{"start":7815.342,"end":7839.943,"text":"那考試後不公佈答案那似乎會嚴重影響到我們考生的一個權益跟對國考的一個信任度他根本不知道你的題目是什麼那麼未來也會影響到整個考生的一個權益所以中和以上這個跟整個國際這個證照呢國際證照的目的叫做什麼精髓就是盡力輔導通過"},{"start":7842.124,"end":7848.189,"text":"為宗旨來執行之那如果國際認證是盡力輔導通行因為這些都是未來非常重要的這個license的必要的所以如果我們跟這個宗旨來背道而馳的話呢那恐怕大家會認為整個全民對國家級的一個認定產生了放棄的心態"},{"start":7863.041,"end":7867.283,"text":"所以針對以上四點的缺失我是不是本席要求我們的產發署盡速提出完善的方案才不會讓我們這些考生以及全民需要而且我們在推動AI的教程會有延遲因為我們現在護國神山都是全世界第一名但是我們現在AI的國際競爭力這一些我們是全世界列為21名"},{"start":7892.153,"end":7913.241,"text":"不相符合 不相符合 請教部長謝謝 那這個部分 我想iPath 事實上它的認證獲得很多企業界大家的認同就是通過iPath 他們來認用那當然AI這個項目 它是第一年辦如果說內容需要滾動式的檢討那我們來看看怎麼樣做得更好"},{"start":7913.641,"end":7929.809,"text":"就針對本席所提出考生一再提出你們去做一個完善的改善方式給本席也讓社會大眾我們一起努力來精進謝謝楊秋瑩委員質詢謝謝部長我們請謝鋒委員質詢謝鋒委員質詢完我們休息5分鐘"},{"start":7939.994,"end":7964.77,"text":"然後我們今天會處理我們拜託我們的部長你們請看誰跟幾個委員不大一樣的先去溝通好 先溝通 謝謝好 我們請怡鳳謝謝主席我想要請我們工部長請部長你的兄弟那個葉俊賢主委要不要請"},{"start":7967.534,"end":7968.497,"text":"好委員長我請教一下"},{"start":7975.987,"end":7987.836,"text":"根據中金院研究員的研究他說台灣2024年從中國大陸進口了95.3%的稀土磁鐵86.1%的稀土金屬混合物跟79.5%的氏化合物還有60.7%的稀土"},{"start":8003.988,"end":8031.646,"text":"金屬那我想要請問未來如果即便就如同工部長所說的工研院的技術已經有辦法提升公斤級的這樣子的稀土也是從回收的材料裡面我們能夠有三分之一的從這些回收材料裡面來置給那三分之二其他三分之二怎麼辦"},{"start":8033.083,"end":8050.705,"text":"報告委員 事實上那個三分之一也沒有辦法從回收完全所以還是要從國外進口進來以後我們做精煉所以三分之二去跟中國大陸買三分之二沒有 我們現在是大部分是從間接的從美國"},{"start":8051.866,"end":8078.106,"text":"歐盟或者是沒有直接直接是有但是比較少因為我們本身沒有精煉的技術所以你如果原礦進來台灣也沒有用因為沒有精煉技術將來是所以工研院為什麼這個精煉的技術要這個能量要把它build up起來就是這個理由我們現在有一些企業已經跟比如說跟澳洲或者是其他國家有在談"},{"start":8079.467,"end":8088.872,"text":"它的這個稀土進來以後我們可以做精煉這樣子的情況那再加上有個澳洲潭有些廠商是有這個澳洲潭沒有錯那"},{"start":8090.066,"end":8110.206,"text":"再加上應該用回收的部分這樣加總起來大概會是佔我們總的需求我們本身國內的需求的三分之一那其他三分之二怎麼辦另外三分之二是會進口人家已經精煉好的像現在一樣就是像所謂的稀土的石鐵嘛"},{"start":8110.566,"end":8117.095,"text":"對不對都已經好了嘛或者是稀土金屬的混合物對不對可是過去我們2024年喔還跟中國大陸進口了95%以上的"},{"start":8126.827,"end":8143.677,"text":"尤其是稀土磁鐵那未來這跟你們兩個都有相關性未來我們的無人機產業裡面的泳池馬達那他就必須要使用這些稀土的磁鐵是不是"},{"start":8144.858,"end":8167.438,"text":"那怎麼辦呢那現在因為中國好像有一年的時間他要豁免了跟美國談豁免了對對對那所以我們跟他好像已經有宣布了對所以是跟大陸相關的其他的國家包括不管是民主國家歐盟也好或是美國也好日本也好現在趕快要籌建"},{"start":8168.358,"end":8188.363,"text":"所謂的飛鴻的供應鏈起來那當然需要我們一起支持的我們因為我們是間接的使用方嘛所以如果需要我們參加的話我們也會參加所以你們已經有辦法自己去製作在這個供應鏈上面稀土持鐵的部分"},{"start":8190.087,"end":8211.437,"text":"現在分成兩個我們自己的部分剛剛提到了那個未來從一開始到2030年我們會那個三分之一的能量把它建置起來另外三分之二還是要從國外進口那國外進口你還是要跟包括歐盟日本還有其他國家來做合作直接進口它的磁鐵"},{"start":8212.719,"end":8234.958,"text":"所以還是要跟其他國家合作進口磁鐵那怎麼樣子 跟哪一個國家合作本來就有一些供應鏈的關係就好像我們現在進口一些磁鐵有些是從日本來的有些是從歐盟來的有些是從美國來的就是日本 歐盟跟美國對 主要是在目前為止目前主要就是這三個國家"},{"start":8237.781,"end":8265.8,"text":"刚才大家在问起病法的时候其实这个跟叶祖伟也有很大的相关性目前你们规划的气病法里面最主要的产业是不是受创最严重的扣件或者是对于中部的机械产业或者是工具机的产业到底目前大家认为整病的"},{"start":8267.059,"end":8270.928,"text":"這樣子一個條件目前大家的看法是如何"},{"start":8273.088,"end":8298.793,"text":"跟委員報告我們在修法之前的話其實有跟很多工協會去討論譬如說像工具機或者是醫材以及觀光業者那這些產業其實都表達蠻肯定的一個態度就是說蠻支持這樣的一個修法然後基本上說我們這個氣病法其實也沒有說哪一個優先你只要有興趣來申請我們都歡迎阿公部長有沒有協助你"},{"start":8299.895,"end":8306.319,"text":"我們會一起合作他有協助你嗎他不理你是不是會啦他沒有協助你的我們會建構一個還是你自己搞定大家有聽你大家願意聽國發會的嗎我們會建構一個平台因為這整合是不是這併購是merge是很困難的是不是"},{"start":8321.149,"end":8340.405,"text":"因為每個公司有每個公司的考量嘛那他們到底要不要併購成一個大的公司共同來打國際盃那之前在美國對等關稅之前其實就已經發生很大要整併就已經發生很大的困難我們政府要介入嘛"},{"start":8341.526,"end":8358.82,"text":"那個產業控股公司他不是要把AB兩家公司併成一家公司我知道他是要把它整合成一個供應鏈還是獨立的兩個公司只是上面架一個控股公司那他的資源可以互通所以他只是控股公司每一個公司還是有自己的控制權是不是"},{"start":8361.042,"end":8376.92,"text":"就讓各個公司有控制權就好像日月光它跟矽品一樣上面有個控制公司但是日月光還是做日月光的矽品還是做矽品的但是它們會有一些資源上的那我們中部的呢我們中部的公司它們的也可以啊它們有意願嗎"},{"start":8378.762,"end":8396.238,"text":"至少供給區的業者有跟我這樣提過有意願是嗎因為之前好像大家對於這個東西的想法都好像興趣不大是不是那主要就是剛剛提到因為租稅的問題吧採鋼匙要談這個部分就要繳很多很多的稅"},{"start":8397.279,"end":8416.05,"text":"那這個根本就是還沒有產生利益就要付出一大筆錢很多的中小企業也沒這個錢所以為什麼一定要緩客我最後再問一題不曉得川普總統有沒有打電話跟工部長講就是他最高法院還沒接到"},{"start":8419.485,"end":8448.117,"text":"最高法院對於美國的就是他援引的IEPA有可能給他推翻那即便他三個川普總統所提名的保守派的大法官都不都不贊同喔那在不贊同的情況下未來我們關稅喔就是美國的關稅對各國會怎麼談你們研判那對我們最重要的就是日韓了對不對"},{"start":8449.728,"end":8471.079,"text":"對 因為對台灣來講的話我們還是要持續跟美國去談主要的理由是你也可以看到它有一些本來是對等關稅的項目裡面它要搬到232去那現在我們同時也跟美國在談232232才是我們的重點因為我們ICT產業大部分是落在這個232的"},{"start":8473.882,"end":8480.961,"text":"可是232其實我們當初過去就是國發會主委 劉主委他有說是"},{"start":8483.232,"end":8503.502,"text":"各國是同等的就是說同等但是我們後來發現232又有不同他對各國又有不同因為各國的那個產品是不同的嘛對不對他會有一些國家有一些豁免雖然針對是公司沒有錯但是他屬於哪一家國家的公司他給予一些豁免"},{"start":8503.982,"end":8528.221,"text":"是啊 所以代表又不同啊還是要談還是要談所以那這樣子對我們台灣的競爭力跟日韓相比有比較好嗎那甚至你看喔川普總統在吉隆坡跟泰國柬埔寨等等喔他們對於稀土的問題就是談稀土的開採嘛那導致了這些國家他們的關稅都降到19%欸"},{"start":8529.702,"end":8555.8,"text":"那我們跟其他東南亞的國家來講好像也沒比較好欸 對不對我們有兩塊嘛 對不對台灣的產業有兩塊嘛一塊 我們一定會我們一定會談往這個現在是暫時性的是20嘛我們一定會談比20還要低嘛而且不疊加嘛而且232裡面我們會希望談生有一些優惠的一些條件"},{"start":8557.791,"end":8567.688,"text":"232會談成有一些優惠的條件是不是對好那對於中小企業傳產呢你們就走這個企業就是企業控股公司這個路線嗎對"},{"start":8570.831,"end":8593.257,"text":"各别的中小企业它的升级转型我们有特别预算或者是公务预算来支持他们如果他们要整病他们力量更大的话那有气病法来支持他们所以就是说有很多的这些升级转型的工具或它的中效可以产生中效的这个工具可以让他们来使用好 谢谢"},{"start":8594.534,"end":8595.375,"text":"謝謝謝鳳委員的資訊謝謝休息五分鐘"},{"start":8629.096,"end":8644.223,"text":"不是,他授權,無法是授權給我們認定的,這樣,沒有定的話,對,要有認定是很好,就算沒有定的話,我們也是一款,"},{"start":8651.288,"end":8662.864,"text":"但是我這麼講,這個是你必須做的,這些資料給我,然後我再依據這個資料去做報告。"},{"start":8678.182,"end":8693.71,"text":"所以應該是八家,不是只有我們家。對,因為我們也有建議過,建議我把你們降一級,必須是一萬九百多萬。所以我把你們降一級,我把你們沒有這些,這是我自己第一個。對,這是我,這是我們的辦法。"},{"start":8703.591,"end":8707.457,"text":"我們接著,然後第三個的話就是進寶。"},{"start":8722.519,"end":8733.604,"text":"OK OK也不會那麼久啦因為待會應該趕快處理酒飯了對啊 OK啦你幾點要走大概就今天在12點"},{"start":8744.71,"end":8750.916,"text":"OK 沒關係啊 你就看你什麼時候對啊 因為那個條紋應該是他們會做嘛對啊對對對 而且條紋也是他們會做的沒問題 OK啊"},{"start":8765.147,"end":8765.788,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8790.896,"end":8794.958,"text":"拍照現在下來對 我現在要拍張那個我在跟他們討論疫情的照片"},{"start":8841.957,"end":8849.542,"text":"你要加在活動的內容裡面我寫的這個血量善化農會對對對你找個地方對喔OK"},{"start":8862.065,"end":8862.746,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8884.258,"end":8904.531,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8940.636,"end":8945.058,"text":"謝謝我們現在開始開會我們請邱智偉委員質詢謝主席我請經濟部龔部長 國安會一夜主委我們請部長跟主委 謝謝應該是負稅署你副署長我們副署長邱委員好那個"},{"start":8969.844,"end":8999.08,"text":"我想首先請教龔部長因為這44條之二主管機關是經濟部你們用租稅的手段用緩客的方式為企業鼓勵國內企業去籌數這個產工公司當初立法修法的原由動機是什麼是企業界的訴求還是行政機關認為說這個有必要多鼓勵成立產工公司來提升它的研發能力跟國際競爭力修法的原由是什麼"},{"start":9001.435,"end":9015.506,"text":"這一次的我跟產業界的座談會的確是有廠商跟我提到這些疾病法集中在哪些產業工具機產業只有工具機那其他產業呢其他產業還有觀光跟醫產以及醫療都有這種呼籲都有這種訴求"},{"start":9022.692,"end":9039.424,"text":"觀光它有可能透過這個控股公司嗎工協會它是透過工協會那邊來管理所以這是所有產業界包括傳統製造業包括服務業也包括生醫對不對那其他產業呢比方說AI 半導體這些呢"},{"start":9041.052,"end":9070.16,"text":"所以我會不會這樣說它是集中於特定產業嘛我希望更多的能量透過修法能夠集中在這個五大這個六大五大信賴產業裡面或重要的戰略產業裡面這個部長這個我發現這個修法事實上是固然利益良善但是可能會這個造福的產業是集中在特殊不像工具機產品製造業扣件有可能"},{"start":9071.172,"end":9097.591,"text":"服務業 航太有沒有可能我們第一必須透過修法讓所有的產業類別都能夠一路均沾跟委員報告就是說我們這個修法其實是適用到所有的產業是啦 但是會使用到你44條之二的事實上是集中在特定產業我這樣說有沒有錯應該不至於啦應該還不至於好 那就看你這條路怎麼開你決定要開一條路 對不對"},{"start":9101.314,"end":9115.576,"text":"經濟部決定要開條路 路要開 你要開八米 十六米四十六米 還是五十公里 誰開是國化會參財政部開來 諸位對 就是說就後面那個執法 他完全是授權耶"},{"start":9117.057,"end":9142.902,"text":"事實上基本上是授權你要怎麼去定義產貨公司的規模它的組織型態跟它的營運範圍這些相關的執法是由你國發會來定對不對跟財政部財政部還有其他的比方說它的產業關聯性股東股份持有的期間這些執法我還覺得比你要開一條路是經濟部決定要怎麼開比較重要"},{"start":9146.096,"end":9158.112,"text":"好 那這個相關執法什麼時候會出來大概六個月內六個月內會出來不要說大概 最好這個立法要很精確盡速 我們盡速這個三如通過之後你六個月如果出不來"},{"start":9159.29,"end":9186.5,"text":"這個法律還是沒有用不會一定會在六個月之內完成那你相關的這個幕僚作業比如說你們有沒有跟財政部跟經濟部有沒有針對你相關的這個規模組織型態跟營運範圍有沒有做過討論呢有有有我們其實有開過很多次的工作會議所以你才能說出在六個月之內把相關執法訂出來對已經大致上有一個方向所以我們會儘快處理公務長你比較輕鬆"},{"start":9187.981,"end":9201.958,"text":"你決定要開路要開多少路要開多大條是國會產財政部所以我反而覺得我們要審查的重點是應該是國會定的內容產財政部定的內容是什麼這才是重點"},{"start":9203.323,"end":9217.672,"text":"因為你要開這道爐 我贊成要怎麼開 你要說六個月才會出來六個月之後你就死吧 就行政命令嘛 對不對比較平常那些會做的那些命令就是你們說的就遵守了嘛"},{"start":9218.732,"end":9234.899,"text":"但我們還是會去諮詢公協會的一些意見你也要多聽一下立法院的意見會 一定會公協會固然重要 立法院也很重要所以我愛審查你的不是私心小事我要開一條路 要怎麼開才行所以我在六個月之內 我會密集請大家來討論一下"},{"start":9243.184,"end":9249.549,"text":"讓你們製造出來之後才有最大的效果讓所有產業都能夠透過你的修法"},{"start":9250.553,"end":9277.424,"text":"來有提高意願是緩科不是減稅喔緩科你覺得這個誘因夠不夠力道夠不夠誘因啦誘因 誘因依照以前的經驗就是說過往的十年其實我們的資料顯示只有九家的產控公司成立那你們的目標呢你們預期目標我們目標一年三家五年十五家啦這會不會太保守我這個幫你們修吧這條路開完只有三家"},{"start":9279.758,"end":9302.927,"text":"因為一般來講就好像我剛剛跟委員分享就是說十年之內只有九家所以其實一年不到一家那我們我們現在是以預計成長三倍對以三倍的方式我是擔心啦這個換寡又換不均換寡就是說三家我覺得還是太過保守不均呢就是你產業分布的不均集中在特定產業"},{"start":9305.24,"end":9325.933,"text":"所以這個需要我才現在請教你 你的路要怎麼開 開的內容是什麼 要因夠不夠你緩客啊 財政部大概不會有意見那個副署長緩客的話 你應該不會有意見減稅的話 你們可能就比較保守了緩客沒有意見如果減稅呢其實我們現在已經有非常多為了促進產業發展的那個租稅減免的規定了這個"},{"start":9336.258,"end":9351.253,"text":"總歸一句話就是你這六個月之中要開的路人內容你要是光明坦途還是這個沿路都很坎坷都是看你怎麼開效果怎麼樣就看你六個月這個執法這個執法總共有幾個執法"},{"start":9353.8,"end":9382.051,"text":"一個 這一個執法 那另外財政部兩個 不好意思 不好意思 兩個兩個嘛 一個是你們主責 一個是財政部主責嘛好 都是六個月裡面嘛那你未來啊有沒有一個單一窗口的機制有 就是國發會是單一窗口我如果說我企業 我要成立產工公司要跟你們申請對不對好 如果申請之後你會用緩科嘛那如果資格不符 我對你們認定資格不符怎麼辦"},{"start":9384.573,"end":9409.89,"text":"資格不符的話我們會輔導他慢慢的變成資格符合資格這樣子我們會嘗試的輔導他符合資格這樣子嘗試就是你如果要跟你們申報跟你們申請對不對要成立這個公司代表說他們有這個意願有這個需求所以你們要輔導他輔導他真的成立控股公司嗎是這一段時間你們說盡量如果他還是完全沒有辦法達成你們的目標呢"},{"start":9412.358,"end":9441.407,"text":"我們還是盡量啦因為那個還是有一些資格規定我是善意的提醒這個主委就是說任何的scenario你可能要設想哪些產業可能會比較多有這個需求你這個申請的過程中你雖然是單一窗口有你們受理那你受理的時候如果發現他們資格不符你們怎麼去輔導輔導期在哪裡輔導期有多長輔導機制在哪裡輔導期因為我們落日條款就是五年嘛"},{"start":9442.648,"end":9471.326,"text":"所以所以就在這段期間的話我們都會盡量輔導他去去去組成一個產工我一向很尊重行政部門這個大家都知道這個在委員會質詢我一直很尊重這個主席這個每一個人發言時間時間到我就應該要尊重主席但是還是語重心長就是說修法固然是一條"},{"start":9472.845,"end":9492.131,"text":"把這個路決定要修但是修法的內容這個六個月我請國會跟財政部一定要匯集所有產業界的這個聲音制定出來執法能夠讓大部分的產業都能夠受惠能夠最大的誘因然後發揮最大的縱效"},{"start":9494.09,"end":9500.955,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱志偉委員 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主委 謝謝我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席 麻煩有請經濟部部長國發會主委我們請部長跟主委 謝謝"},{"start":9525.18,"end":9546.757,"text":"部長好 主委好第一個事情是上個禮拜漳邊工業區那一邊聯合站一聲在那邊的海上的光電廠因為當初設置的時候其實漳化那邊就非常多的環保團體對這件事情有高度的疑慮我之前也給他們開過記者會那在濕地上面搞光電板這件事情是不是適當"},{"start":9548.069,"end":9570.563,"text":"那以及在招標的過程當中做了哪些承諾承諾完了以後要跳票那這些事情我之前都問過了這也不是今天的重點今天的重點是說到目前為止可能環保團體他們所提出來的質疑跟廠商他們所提出來的解釋出現了兩方說法不一致的部分那針對這個火災接下來會進行鑑定嗎"},{"start":9575.397,"end":9579.43,"text":"會 那有誰鑑定消防局 有地方的消防局嗎"},{"start":9581.004,"end":9607.526,"text":"那我們就等地方政府的消防局嘛那第二個事情是說針對海上光電他所出現的火災那今天聯合報其實用一個相當的篇幅說燒出安全管理的漏洞我不曉得這邊評論部長看過了沒有那我關心的事情是說他點出了一個問題就是說目前的權責單位劃給海巡署那海巡署的弟兄顯然是沒有這方面的專業"},{"start":9608.783,"end":9638.006,"text":"那針對在制度管理上面所出現的安全漏洞那經濟部接下來有打算要採取什麼樣具體的措施嗎我請署長跟我們報告一下快點我後面還有很多問題目前我們是已經要求他提出他的災害搶救計畫那這個計畫要經過我們中央來核定那我們在核定的過程我們會邀請地方的消防單位或海軍單位一起來看他這個計畫你是指有這家廠商還是所有的廠商都是所有的廠商目前現在才要求嗎"},{"start":9639.314,"end":9659.79,"text":"是丹納斯颱風之後對於這種浮動式的風電當時立院有要求我們做通盤檢討我們在通盤檢討之後我們在9月就修改了我們的電源登記規則把它納入規範我們這些技設的廠商我們是要求他在11月17日以前要提出規範來我們這一家當時有火災的聯合再生"},{"start":9664.173,"end":9686.691,"text":"那麼他已經提出來了那我們是已經約定11月14會會同消防單位來做現場勘察兩個部分啦第一個廠商所提出來的他們的計畫他們的規範是不是符合目前經濟部所要求的內容這個接下來你們去好好審我們未來質詢再說那第二個部分"},{"start":9687.452,"end":9703.543,"text":"就有關於全責機關的劃分我們總是不希望說給沒有專業的機關去承擔這麼重大的責任那這個部分我覺得能源署是責無旁貸那就這個部分希望能源署能夠一併的來加以注意那順便請教一下國發會的主委"},{"start":9705.524,"end":9731.66,"text":"之前國發基金管理委員會已經做出了聯合再生問題很多必然一拖拉鼓立法院做了國發基金的調查報告可能我也不曉得主委是不是有時間看不過上次質詢的時候你最起碼針對改革的方向都給了一些正面的回應這個部分我是肯定的只不過說接下來要進行改革的時候希望國發會那邊能夠抱持一個比較"},{"start":9733.301,"end":9749.373,"text":"真的有要積極勇於認識的心態來處理這個問題但是是不是有要積極的面對問題解決問題我還是要從具體的行為來看我上次其實也提過了就國發基金說要試骨試骨試到現在進度如何"},{"start":9751.722,"end":9764.935,"text":"就聯合再生這個部分來講的話我們已經在試果但那個價格跟量不方便在這邊講會影響到市場沒有關係我只要求我只要求你們做的決議就依照決議來加以執行因為不僅僅是國會"},{"start":9768.579,"end":9794.518,"text":"甚至是監察院 監察院所出的報告也都講得非常的清楚講得非常非常的清楚國八基金過去在管理的時候它所出現的問題到底是什麼最後一個問題 請教一下經濟部部長媒體說賴總統指示不要再搞綠電2027年重啟核三這件事情是真的還假的沒有這回事那有召開這個會議嗎"},{"start":9796.772,"end":9806.587,"text":"沒有只有在那個他說賴總統近日有親自召見你嗎沒有沒有沒有這回事所以賴總統連親自召見你都沒有所以從頭徹頭徹尾這是個假新聞就對了"},{"start":9811.976,"end":9830.432,"text":"經濟部一定是依法行政做的事情合三合二因為有法律對啦我現在問題很具體啦就是賴總統沒有召見你談能源問題沒有指示這樣的問題沒有 他沒有找你談能源問題還是沒有做這樣的指示這是兩件不同的事沒有指示這樣的問題他有找你談能源問題但是沒有指示這樣的事嗎"},{"start":9831.741,"end":9857.552,"text":"是嗎 他通常如果有找我都是鼓勵啦 是啦所以我現在要把問題問清楚嘛我相信總統一定常常鼓勵你啦第二個部分把事情澄清就好了啦 他有找你鼓勵你然後談到能源議題但是沒有做這樣的指示這樣子的summary應該是對的嘛第二個部分你們針對再生能源20%的目標有沒有改變"},{"start":9861.458,"end":9869.977,"text":"時程算會往後面一點要再延到什麼時候現在的目標還是2026年的11月你說要再往後延 要延到什麼時候"},{"start":9871.38,"end":9891.469,"text":"就是我們希望可以達到這樣我知道你主觀的期待嘛你主觀的期待要符合客觀的事實嘛所以你們現在在評估什麼時候可以達到20%因為已經挑票過一次了再生能源的能源配比我院會總質詢也問過了 總統他也答不出來那我就很關心這件事情因為我看了你們所有給我的數據"},{"start":9893.015,"end":9912.445,"text":"我是每個月定期看啊看了以後我百思不得其解啊2026年11月要怎麼達成20%的目標所以我現在在問你這個時程上你們打算要延到什麼時候的確是有挑戰性但是我們還是以用這個目標來當作目標但是我現在就跟你講這是一個不切實際的目標"},{"start":9913.84,"end":9930.098,"text":"你還是覺得11月可以達成還是有這個機會啦但是有挑戰我承認那你們有評估過比較切實的時間是什麼時候嗎還是不願意鬆口就是2026年11月努力看看啦還是委員支持我們努力看看"},{"start":9932.332,"end":9955.722,"text":"OK啊 沒關係啊主席站起來了 我尊重主席的時間今天我有開記者會 有一些具體的問題那部長你回去以後再瞭解為什麼其他的主管機關針對產創條例違法情節重大的爆了八家最後經濟不只收一家中間發生了什麼樣的問題會後再書面回覆給我 可以嗎可以可以可以 好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝黃國昌委員的資訊"},{"start":9960.593,"end":9988.473,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝主委我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員質詢主席在場委員先進列席的眾將算官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們經濟部工部長還有我們的負稅署的尼副署長我們請部長跟副署長"},{"start":9994.04,"end":10001.654,"text":"部長好我們今天要討論的主題其實不是企業併購而已是要開創一個產業控股公司產控是不是這樣"},{"start":10002.898,"end":10031.03,"text":"我們叫金融機關 叫金控嘛這個是產控嘛 是不是 往下看雖然我們鼓勵企業以股份轉換方式成立產業控股公司那這裡面可以它的產生的證券交易所得可以緩克最低稅負而且我們為了房幣也訂了這四個辦法那請問一下部長你認為這樣足夠了嗎您是說這樣的一個房幣之外誘因足不足夠來推動這些產業控股公司的成立"},{"start":10032.094,"end":10048.514,"text":"至少這一個是最基本的對 最基本很好 就是我要告訴你這是基本 還不夠好 我們來看一下 你知道金控怎麼樣嗎金控的話呢 它如果是合併它其實所有的稅啊 都免徵副社長是不是這樣子 金控有這個優惠"},{"start":10050.461,"end":10072.196,"text":"是沒錯那部長你了解了我為什麼特別請負稅署來就是金控是這樣但是金控有個問題我請教一下最近鬧得很大的新售北市科T17 T18本來新售是什麼是星光人壽但是星光跟台新金金併變成一個金融控股公司之後新售就變成是這個"},{"start":10073.217,"end":10091.937,"text":"新的金控公司底下 那麼目前原來新售所有的這個T-17-18它現在有沒有移轉 有沒有交易部長你知道嗎 你判斷有沒有交易有沒有變成是兩個金 台新金跟星光金的交易"},{"start":10092.932,"end":10105.7,"text":"有沒有沒有沒有對沒有沒有錯你很清楚他只是地上權但是萬一真的有土地透過兩個公司合併後變成一個產控之下有沒有產控之下往下看"},{"start":10106.735,"end":10134.833,"text":"我們來看一下目前假如說有A公司跟B公司他們共同成立一個甲用甲跟乙甲公司跟乙公司成立一個A的產控公司這個時候乙公司的土地他有持份他變成股份了就變成到產控公司的這個股份也移轉了也共有的土地不動產的所有權有共同部分持有的部分也移轉了這樣算不算是一個交易"},{"start":10135.936,"end":10144.741,"text":"副在主副組長這個問題你知道A公司跟B公司整併在一個甲用甲很奇怪"},{"start":10146.882,"end":10166.7,"text":"A產業控股公司同時取得甲公司跟乙公司的股權而甲公司跟乙公司分別對公司的土地有個持份有個授權嘛那這個就會有持份帳據了嘛那請問這個不動產的持份變成了這個A產控公司那算不算一個交易"},{"start":10168.447,"end":10193.861,"text":"算不算不動產交易有處分喔跟委員報告如果他符合一定要件會符合我們所得稅法那個房地合一稅的這個視同房地交易視同房地交易好啦部長知道沒有如果是視同房地交易要不要繳稅是不是要繳稅是嘛所以目前呢我們認為啊我們要成立產控公司如果只是純粹用證券交易所得來緩克是不夠的"},{"start":10194.898,"end":10219.271,"text":"如果是甲公司跟乙公司上面成立一個A的產控公司這裡面涉及到甲公司跟乙公司分別持有的土地他後來的部分股權被上面的A控股公司所持有這裡面會產生一個土地的部分持有的持份的移轉那可能變成房地合一歲喔所以部長這個要不要加進去要不要評估一下這個可能要來往下"},{"start":10221.372,"end":10249.246,"text":"跟委員報告那個部分是在所得稅法規範那所得稅法有一些嚴謹的規範並不會因為它慘控就一定會進去還是要回到所得稅法來好 所以部長請你們的人趕快跟我們負稅組跟財政部研議一下這樣的話夠不夠成我們土地的不動產的交易好 趕快的時間不夠監察院說投資台灣有三大缺失應該檢討我們看到什麼什麼余半案件未完成沒有跟員工共享貸款未符規定設置地點未登記工程啪啪啪"},{"start":10250.487,"end":10265.717,"text":"我們經濟部都答覆了 只有一個沒有答覆到底這些投資台灣的廠商他完成投資後獲利有沒有跟員工共享 有沒有說明 往下看有沒有有沒有這一點 有沒有說明給你一個機會說明 趕快來"},{"start":10267.779,"end":10295.684,"text":"跟委員報告 監察院的報告如果仔細去看內容的話 其實監察院對於審計部裡面的報告說沒有跟員工共享這件事情 那覺得這個論點是有帶傷缺啦就是他的定義可能不明確啦 經濟部並沒有很認同他是用 監察委員不認同監察院不認同 審計部的報告 國務部長現在我們看一下 就業總量增加是不是就等於就業品質增加"},{"start":10297.153,"end":10324.032,"text":"我們經過這樣的投資台灣之後這些廠商回流他用台灣的土地用台灣的能源水資源電力但是還有用的很大的勞動力這些勞動力本身他們是勞工啊他們的就業品質有沒有因為這樣投資台灣的增加有提高這些增加的工作機會是不是高價值高薪資的我們看到你的統計嘛有增加嘛創造的預計是要創造什麼八萬個本國就業人數嘛請問你認為這些就業職缺是不是屬於高職缺高價值的"},{"start":10324.953,"end":10353.932,"text":"因為當初我們在審核這些這些案件的時候事實上要求他必須是屬於智慧化的生產或者是屬於永續的發展所以因為業別的關係就認定他創造的職業一定是高品質高價因為他有相關的技術好我們來看一下結果你們的看看的三大方案第一貸款第二租地第三建廠你們希望他產生高價值產能希望他帶動產業升級希望有研發投資但是很多的情況是不是只有在財務周轉是不是他只有擴張第一屆產能不知道"},{"start":10354.973,"end":10367.513,"text":"我們不知道所以經濟部要去嚴加的去了解好不好最後一件來所以這些台灣企業為什麼會有這些問題最近有一個非常巨大的公司被美國點名"},{"start":10368.607,"end":10387.689,"text":"強迫勞動因為他使用大量的境外勞動力就是移工這些移工來到台灣工作必須自行負擔很大額的仲介會可能要去借款貸款甚至他們造成他們後來病入血汗請問經濟部如果說我們擴大投資台灣結果跑出這樣的方向是我們不願意見到的那經濟部有沒有預防之道"},{"start":10388.784,"end":10417.851,"text":"包委員因為這個案件他所謂的僑工的勞動他裡面的內容是蠻多項的那其中一項大概就是您提到的這個環境改善那個都好不是主要是移工來到台灣背債對仲介這個部分因為牽涉到他當地國的仲介的關係那這個部分我們會跟勞動部想好一個方式把它處理掉所以我希望未來經濟部你們要繼續推動擴大投資台灣"},{"start":10418.584,"end":10430.869,"text":"要把這個加入對產業的要求可以嗎可以可以好謝謝我們謝謝總嘉賓謝謝部長我們請賴思寶委員質詢謝謝謝謝主席及各位先進那麼有請我們的經濟部的部長國會主委我們部長主委謝謝"},{"start":10452.843,"end":10476.277,"text":"我請教兩位長官今天的修廠創條例這個財政部長可以起來就是一個要課稅的問題這一點很小的事情這個當然也不是很小但是基本上它是很細的東西就是我那個什麼時候要繳稅的問題那個部長你覺得這樣修就會產生產業"},{"start":10482.521,"end":10503.991,"text":"控股公司嗎就很容易有嗎現在請問你喔除了金控以外有沒有其他的集團電視集團它也有控股公司的樣子 有沒有有啊 有啊 很多啦這個規模比較大一點鴻海本身也是一個控股公司很大的集團啊 怎麼不是呢大連大 這個"},{"start":10505.832,"end":10525.621,"text":"很多都有啊那為什麼還要修這個現在都有了你們還要修這幹什麼我不知道產生的效益是怎樣因為對於很多的中小企業來講的話資金可能沒有那麼所以你是要控股公司要成立中小企業來擺中小企業有一些中小企業他們有這樣的意願這個時候政府的角色就很重要了請問"},{"start":10526.801,"end":10546.432,"text":"你說要五年內成立十五家的產業控股公司這十五家我們國化會有沒有角色我們會受 就是我們是單一窗口那我們一旦受到建制後的話我們會看出它的性質是哪一個產業我簡單來講 用土話來講比較要單純一點啦你要不要投資啦你要不要出錢有可能啊"},{"start":10554.537,"end":10564.951,"text":"要出多少錢 準備預算多少來發展這個我們會利用國發基金的資源然後看說哪一個產業那你總應該 經濟部長可以回答心目中總應該有幾個產業吧有沒有幾個產業AI相關的 是嗎"},{"start":10573.422,"end":10598.831,"text":"還是什麼我們那個產業並沒有限定說是哪一個產業現在我覺得這個法一修我覺得一定要藉這個機會消除台灣的荷蘭病的問題你看那股市都一直創新高可是你注意看到啊基本上就掌了AI的概念股而已其他都不掌了"},{"start":10600.137,"end":10627.011,"text":"大部分的很多股票基本上都跌的這是虛耳虛胖台灣目前面臨到很嚴重的荷蘭病所以這時候政府的力量要進來應該是怎麼樣讓其他非AI概念的產業能夠起來來兩位長官你們想說所以這也是我們這次氣病法修修法最主要原因就是說我們把一些傳產看有沒有辦法把它集合起來然後變大變強"},{"start":10627.847,"end":10649.424,"text":"那你心目中只有幾個啊比如說幾個產業現在比如說像工具機啦或者是醫材啊還有一些像旅宿啦觀光這一些都有可能啊五年內15家產控公司大概規模多多大規模一般來講就是以上市上市櫃公司的這樣一個規模為主"},{"start":10650.134,"end":10665.722,"text":"那他們是一個控股公司上市喔對 控股公司上市另外一個問題這個財政部的可以解釋一下你們不覺得你們今天就是他股票真奇怪喔照理講我"},{"start":10666.662,"end":10693.143,"text":"我是被併購的 比如說我被部長併購我就交接要換股啊交易已經完成了是不是 副組長是不是你是不是已經完成了那完成了我就該繳稅 該繳稅就繳稅啊為什麼可以拖到我賣掉才可能因為他換到的股票不是現金嘛然後他就會覺得說這個他比較沒有辦法繳稅所以給他一個誘因 然後降低這個"},{"start":10695.885,"end":10720.192,"text":"我覺得修這條是很奇怪的不就是為誰開這個門只是我們查不到而已這裡面有貓膩今天修這個法有貓膩為了給誰開這個門你可以明顯的就是照理講今天我們病了照理講交易完成交易完成就應該課稅啊那個護書長是不是交易完成是不是要課稅你告訴我一般都要啦"},{"start":10722.493,"end":10750.716,"text":"對啊 我提供的 等於產創條例提供的大漏洞讓他可以借這個來避稅來討稅 不能這樣子喔很多法是有緩客的機制啊要鼓勵啊 很多的法是有產創條例也有 就是對於新創的部分他也有緩客的設計啊 因為員工分紅也是嘛 因為他當時拿到股票 但是他沒有現金啊他一定要實現真的拿到現金才有辦法去繳稅啊這我想也是合理的啦 我是覺得啦"},{"start":10751.457,"end":10753.38,"text":"另外一個我基本要強調的我們現在產業發展是M型化"},{"start":10758.646,"end":10785.705,"text":"就只有一個一支獨秀其他都踢踢踏踏的不怎麼樣你現在來講的話我不認為這個能夠幫助這件事情沒辦法幫助吧至少他有一個剛剛去除掉就是說想要規模壯大不管是水平或是垂直整合起來的這樣機制不要說他們只是換股而已馬上就要繳一大筆的稅你有沒有鼓勵 沒有啦我不是問這個問題喔那有沒有鼓勵這一些"},{"start":10786.405,"end":10799.172,"text":"的產控公司又要去統治美國沒有啦沒有啦如果如果是的話也是希望去那邊併購他們的通路我問好幾次你來這裡講很樂觀關稅談得怎麼樣啊到現在到現在已經20加N啊到現在為止都是20加N啊很慘捏部長啊"},{"start":10810.558,"end":10836.338,"text":"樂觀的程度又加 又增加樂觀什麼叫樂觀程度又加所以這個也可以搞定這個也可以搞定嗎 這個也可以嗎這時間我沒有辦法不然要怎麼用一拖二拖三拖四拖本來說最壞的習近平跟川普見了面大概就可以搞定 見面了啊 也沒有搞定我們盡快他們下次見面是明年的春"},{"start":10838.721,"end":10855.878,"text":"不會到那時候不會到那時候會盡快什麼盡快你來這裡說幾個改對不對都沒有final我們的船產很慘船產很慘不會啦怎麼不會呢我們現在就是要幫助這些啦不是這沒福氣啦這要炸的啦"},{"start":10856.599,"end":10878.979,"text":"這不會發生啦 是啦 多元幫助啦剛才國會主委提到的工具機最具體的就是談關稅因為工具機的關稅已經4.5%左右快要5% 還要加一個20% 所以25%左右這個關稅搞定比什麼都重要 對對對 我們努力對不對 是 十一月底可以嗎"},{"start":10880.42,"end":10888.007,"text":"這個我們不知道 掃月底我給你掃月底 謝謝不 今年可以吧 今年可以搞定吧謝謝 我們努力啊 謝謝謝謝 謝謝戴斯堡委員資訊 謝謝謝謝部長 謝謝主委我們現在請呂玉玲委員資訊"},{"start":10908.068,"end":10911.191,"text":"謝謝主席 請工部長我們請工部長議員好工部長對等關稅趕快談定大家才能夠穩定向前剛剛講到12月底那最慢也會1月底應該不會到春節就大概1月底以前給你們鼓勵加油"},{"start":10932.206,"end":10955.51,"text":"部長 面對全球供應鏈重組及地緣政治的風險持續的來升高台灣若想在國際經濟局勢中站穩腳步就必須要加強國內的投資在推動我們產業升級跟轉型所以我們經濟部有提出了投資台灣的三大方案"},{"start":10956.23,"end":10985,"text":"這個是三年一期啦 已經延一期了從2019年到2021年一期 你們又再延了2022年到2024年一再的延 就希望說能夠讓我們投資台灣的產業能夠蓬勃的發展那特殊三大產業最重要的話台商回來投資還有耕留台灣 還有整個中小企業的投資方案那在這個投資的當中將近有一"},{"start":10985.62,"end":10993.706,"text":"千多個廠商的來投資 將近有1684家的投資 有917家完成 那個產值也大概1.16兆1.16兆但是有767家還未完成 所以現在你又在2025年要"},{"start":11006.316,"end":11012.447,"text":"再加到2027年 再延一起三年這三年的話 你說會增加產值到2.5兆增加11萬個工作機會這個有沒有畫大餅"},{"start":11019.204,"end":11032.441,"text":"逐步的完成 沒有勒是從當初這個三大投資方案以來現在已經陸續完成 您剛才提到的所以他的投資金額已經超過一兆了是完成的所以你會針對這700多家 你會去輔導他們嗎是針對這700多家去輔導嗎"},{"start":11036.726,"end":11054.395,"text":"他們是700多家他們在持續的進行當中因為投資還是要有一個程序嘛 當然啦現在國際的原物料一直高漲然後又缺工的問題這方面你都要跟企業多開一些會去如何去輔導他們要不然的話你要增加2.5兆的產值我本期看到這個"},{"start":11055.964,"end":11079.618,"text":"不太可能會完成 投資台灣事務所他就會專案 會用專案專案輔導 專案輔導 不只貸款的部分 貸款土地水電 各方面都會來協助我們希望能夠確保依照他的期程能完成實質投資啦實質投資 所以你這樣子延到2027年會不會再延啊2027年 我們現在 延三次囉先到2027年 不夠的話再延是嗎"},{"start":11083.962,"end":11105.068,"text":"持續投資台灣就是好事 希望你如期來完成確保這期時間來完成好不好 好部長我們要吸引所有的廠商回來台灣投資最重要的就是能源要供應要穩定那廠商關注的最重要的那當然就是能夠"},{"start":11106.611,"end":11125.209,"text":"穩定供電那在這方面的話我們看到輝達已經確定在我們台北開這個這個海外的公司了那在這邊那所以他有說過一句話說如果你要大力的發展AI的產業就應該要投資核能"},{"start":11126.595,"end":11147.814,"text":"那民意的基礎上也都支持的啦天下雜誌裡面的民調也有七成的民意是認為說我們應該發展這個核能跟再生能源是可以並行的那所以我們看到我們經濟部經濟部我們台電是不是有送給你一個計畫要啟用核電廠的安檢這個計畫"},{"start":11149.675,"end":11175.098,"text":"他是現況評估報告是有送到評估報告 送去的你們會核定嗎你們核定他們就會做評估報告嗎安檢的評估報告跟我們有一個行政的流程因為他的評估報告我們還是要check過就是說確認會多久我們希望在下個月月初之前就會核定會核定嗎做出決定 對做出決定 不會核定喔"},{"start":11176.192,"end":11191.222,"text":"如果一切OK的話對是OK的話當然就是核定是我們希望盡快盡快核定給台電核定之後他們就可以做一個安全的檢查再做一個這個啟用的這個計畫運轉的這個計畫是不是對對對沒有錯"},{"start":11195.284,"end":11210.915,"text":"因為他們如果在做啟用的計畫當中一定要審查過我們安檢需要多少時間然後再核定安檢整個盤點重啟這個計畫當中我們也要預估要需要多少費用都會檢測出來吧都會核定出來吧"},{"start":11213.874,"end":11236.742,"text":"就是說這個是一個啟動啟動以後自我安全檢查他要跟原廠有一個密切的溝通然後才確定說有沒有哪些零組件有老化要不要更換所以把費用一併評估出來那時候才會知道要多少費用當時我們賴清德總統特別有提到要核安安檢還有"},{"start":11238.735,"end":11263.176,"text":"核廢料的處理這個都沒有問題之後還有社會共識那像看起來的話我們現在就是核廢料核廢料的部分的話這個核二廠跟核三廠的室外儲存的已經在2026年就會來完工那核一核二核三的室內儲存的設施也都已經發包給你看這個核廢料是有解了那剩下就剩下社會共識請問"},{"start":11265.037,"end":11283.969,"text":"部長社會共識現在已經有七成的民眾都有共識了那現在還有分歧嗎報告委員我們先做好我們先做好和安無疑這件事情我想和安無疑的話達成的共識就會更高了那如果說"},{"start":11285.151,"end":11297.461,"text":"核安沒有辦法安全保障的話我想這個共識就困難所以我們還是把核能安全的問題先做好我覺得是最重要的核廢料我們也在處置室內跟室外的處置場都沒有問題了"},{"start":11301.844,"end":11321.262,"text":"部長我們不要說這個安檢過了之後的話你們又拿一個這個社會共識來在這個一直延緩那我們希望說我們行政院是否可以召開一個能源的國事會議找一些長官學還有我們民間的團體大家共同來參與這樣子達成共識的機率會更大"},{"start":11324.105,"end":11343.617,"text":"包委員因為這麼高層次的恐怕我要跟行政院商量一下提報行政院就是要商量這是我們經濟部的職責嘛我們要提出來召開這個能源的國事會議啊廣大社會大家各界的意見才有辦法達成共識好不好我們會跟行政院來一起努力好不好謝謝謝謝余玉玲委員我們請賴瑞榮委員"},{"start":11354.747,"end":11359,"text":"好 謝謝召委了 也把我的案子有順利的排進來謝謝召委 那接下來請鞏部長鞏警部長"},{"start":11366.104,"end":11387.637,"text":"部長我先請教這個普發現金因為政府很努力的這幾年經濟狀況都相當不錯那我們普發現金但是現在詐騙也越來越多現在連普發現金一萬也要開始來詐騙很多放大一萬元的詐騙包括甚至於用手機來變現甚至於全民都能領這些的部分"},{"start":11388.297,"end":11411.813,"text":"部長這樣的詐騙不要最後變成好意思普發一萬現金出去結果因為詐騙導致很多人損失數十萬數百萬甚至上千萬這恐怕引發更大的民怨部長這個部分是應該強力的跟整個臉書跟相關的平台做一個溝通是 據我們了解的確是數位發展部一直在針對這個事情有在做一些宣導的工作"},{"start":11413.832,"end":11435.333,"text":"財政部部長 我的想法不是宣導而已啊 這些事情其實已經不是一天兩天了啦你看這邊的臉書裡面的他普發現金刑事警察局都說了這個都是詐騙廣告 詐騙廣告包括什麼早上家務賺八萬包括全民都能領刑事警察局說了這個都是詐騙廣告如果已經明確詐騙廣告 我不認為"},{"start":11436.874,"end":11455.437,"text":"Meta我不認為臉書不知道這件事情而如果他們知道還持續的賺這種廣告費我認為就是共犯非常惡劣所以我的意思是說我要求經濟部不要只有書發部經濟部也要強力的跟臉書表達態度如果你們上架這樣的廣告的話你們形同是詐騙的共犯"},{"start":11456.998,"end":11481.963,"text":"現在因為要領一萬塊錢大家都很高興的時候當你這樣的廣告出來的時候會讓更多人受騙不要因為政府的美意發了一萬元的現金導致更多人被詐騙被受害我們認為這個反而會引起另外更大的一個民怨我希望經濟部在三天內的時間跟正式的跟Meta跟正式的跟臉書正式的提醒他們把這些東西全面下架"},{"start":11482.443,"end":11497.121,"text":"不能夠讓這樣的詐騙廣告上去當刑事警察局都已經提醒你這就是詐騙的時候如果Meta如果臉書還是不作為的話還是持續上去那我認為這就是共犯我認為經濟部要硬起來要有所作為部長同意嗎"},{"start":11498.311,"end":11517.897,"text":"八號委員因為臉書它的主管機關還是數位發展部啦但是當然經濟部來做希望Meta它也可以有這樣的委員剛剛提到的這些我們也可以透過什麼樣的管道或者是行文給他們所有的企業所有的產業跟經濟部都有相關"},{"start":11518.757,"end":11537.807,"text":"這些企業要在台灣賺錢這些企業要在台灣的任何的獲利跟經濟部都有相關 我希望經濟部要運用政府是一體的 不要只有抒發部在努力不要只有刑事警察局在努力刑事警察局抓抓都抓不完但是我認為經濟部是有影響力的時候要善加運用經濟部的影響力"},{"start":11539.13,"end":11560.74,"text":"Meta請臉書要作為你們的一個電話一個會議對他們都有強大的一個影響力我希望經濟部在這件事情上要硬起來要有所作為我希望三天內看到經濟部跟臉書跟Meta有溝通而聽到他們的善意回應如果沒有善意回應的話我會要求政府更強硬的動作我不接受"},{"start":11561.52,"end":11581.909,"text":"我們政府一人發一萬塊給人民 結果反倒成為了詐騙的工具而臉書在這件事情上卻毫無作為 甚至形成是詐騙的共犯我不接受這樣做法 我希望經濟部 抒發部全部要強硬起來展現出我們打詐 展現出我們的態度可以嗎三天內給我們一個說明 給我們一個報告 你們跟"},{"start":11586.946,"end":11599.787,"text":"這個臉書跟Meta溝通的結果好嗎我希望在三天後不再看到像這樣的廣告再上去我不希望再看到如果再看到他表示臉書並毫不在意這樣的一個作為好嗎"},{"start":11601.265,"end":11621.885,"text":"我可以答應委員就是說我們跟社會發展部怎麼樣跟Meta來做溝通三天內去溝通好不好三天後我希望三天內這些東西不再看到說完全看不到這個說老實話我沒有辦法沒關係請政府展現出你們的態度跟你們的公信力跟你們的強勢的作為你們有作為了我們認為Meta跟臉書"},{"start":11623.266,"end":11650.92,"text":"皮這麼厚啦 如果沒有作為的話 那大家就再想更多的方法來 我們認為所有的企業都應該有一個社會責任如果你明知這是詐騙 你還讓他上架的話連警政署都已經告訴你 警政署已經告訴你這些都是詐騙了臉書如果還持續上架的話你當台灣人是塑膠的嗎我們來努力 我們來努力 好不好要有作為 人民才會有感好嗎 這個我希望經濟部要有強硬的作為出來再來一樣啦齁"},{"start":11653.58,"end":11670.895,"text":"電視台說賴清德總統說經濟部不要再搞綠電部長有這樣的事嗎我說的是子虛烏有對子虛烏有經濟部刺子虛烏有我是在強調啦齁除了子虛烏有怒刺子虛烏有以外有沒有其他的作為如果我們都是像沙包一樣"},{"start":11671.516,"end":11700.566,"text":"被有所有這些作為出來影響了然後都沒有任何的作為的時候這樣的事情會不斷的發生基本上媒體要報導這樣新聞求證是基本的事情嘛有求證過經濟部嗎 部長有求證過嗎沒有沒有任何求證 做這樣的報導其實就是一個假的報導嘛那這樣假的報導如果都沒有任何事情只是怒斥怒斥完了就結束掉了未來這樣事情會再發生這幾年台灣接收到的認知作戰有多少我希望這件事情經濟部要有態度經濟部要不要表達跟"},{"start":11701.727,"end":11715.099,"text":"這個電視台表達過強烈的抗議報告委員因為他這個沒有求證過所以事實上也不是事實所以經濟部有沒有表達強烈的抗議我們會表達請經濟部表達強烈的抗議好嗎"},{"start":11717.375,"end":11741.388,"text":"沒有到法律動作的階段啦但是表達強烈的抗議是應該的嘛你沒有強烈抗議的話電視台會有壓力嗎下次同樣的新聞都連問都不用問嗎求證是基本的嘛這是新聞媒體最基本的工作連求證都沒有求證做出假的一個報導出來還要最後還要由經濟部來怒斥來澄清那整天政府部門整天做澄清就澄清不完了我希望經濟部要硬起來好嗎"},{"start":11742.648,"end":11767.147,"text":"要求跟這些電視台表達強烈的抗議應該要來求證 沒有的事情就不應該這樣報導這會造成所有的混淆 好嗎我期待三天內看到你們表達你們強烈的抗議的態度再來 台北市要求要補償費那我問一下 這個水庫的補償費那每年台電 南電 北送損失95億度 這個要怎麼算"},{"start":11769.116,"end":11787.178,"text":"對 我請那個台電公司 這比較細的 來這怎麼算八號委員因為台灣現在還是整個電力都串聯所以目前這個輸電的費用其實由大家一起分攤台北市沒有電廠台北市當時連變電所都還不太想蓋"},{"start":11788.952,"end":11813.802,"text":"電力的部分都是其他的外線是供應給台北的台北如果要挑這件問題的話 那我再次的強調再提醒一下 高雄是全台灣發電量最大的 自給率最高的台北是最低的但是我們看財務法裡面台北拿了多少 高雄拿了多少我要再次強調南電北送這邊有很多的 包括真實的成本 包括輸電的消耗掉一年損失217億從南往北送損失270億 這錢算誰的"},{"start":11818.049,"end":11836.916,"text":"要算誰的這是不是事實 217億是不是事實南電別送確實會損失到一些電力的那個不是一些是很多271 17億不是一些而已我希望這些問題要不斷的凸顯出來如果沒有講的話永遠都會出現這樣問題佔盡了便宜還認為自己吃虧"},{"start":11842.577,"end":11868.428,"text":"我再次的強調包括犧牲區域的公平跟環境爭議包括阻礙了整個能源的轉型我認為這都非常不公平環境的成本都是由高雄、由雲林、由台中來承擔比較多的這是不公平的我要再次強調我要求差別電價這件事情要來討論我有認真討論差別電價這件事情的時候才不會占盡了便宜的人還持續的在喊"},{"start":11869.653,"end":11898.539,"text":"部長 認真思考查別電站這件事情給中南部供電的縣市一個合理的交代好嗎部長 認真思考好嗎你們要認真思考這件事情對中南部的鄉親們才有價值 同時間也才不會不斷的發生這種事情 佔盡了便宜還要來這個講這些什麼自己的損失了多少損失了 剛剛講到的損失200多億這部分都還沒跟台北市算台北市的市長竟然還要講這件事情"},{"start":11899.96,"end":11907.353,"text":"好不好 部長差別定價請要認真思考對中南部的發電限制才是一個公平的事情可以嗎 部長 審慎思考 謝謝謝謝賴銳榮委員質詢 謝謝部長我們請葉元智委員質詢"},{"start":11929.392,"end":11957.212,"text":"主席好 請找經濟部長文靜部長葉友豪部長好 我們現在國人非常關心詐騙的問題最近有一個太子集團在媒體上面引爆很大的關注他們在和平大院買了非常多間的豪宅11間的豪宅總價是38億左右跟周董做鄰居"},{"start":11958.208,"end":11986.272,"text":"那後來我們去查了一下這個他的公司齁這個大家可以看一下他的公司非常多間都是登記橋外資都是橋外資大概你看這邊123456788間公司都是登記橋外資那橋外資公司如果他們理論上他是資金是從海外匯進來的嗎這個部分經濟部是不是要審查投審會是不是要審查要"},{"start":11986.914,"end":12011.906,"text":"要不要 我來看一下那個喬外資他們的申請的程序一開始的時候要投資服務然後投資申請的這一塊我們來看一下投資申請的這一塊 然後匯入資金然後資金審定比如說要審定投資額的申請書啊 匯入匯款通知書等等在這個環節 現在大家對於詐騙都深惡痛絕啊在這個環節請問一下投審"},{"start":12016.77,"end":12043.078,"text":"是可以做什麼還是什麼都沒辦法做我們針對一定的那個金額我們會比較專案性的去做審查什麼樣的金額才會專案性做審查投資金額在五千萬美金以上五千萬美金那五千萬美金以下就不會就是審查密度會比較低所以五千萬美金那他現在買豪宅的資金是38億"},{"start":12045.134,"end":12071.764,"text":"有沒有符合你要查的範圍因為他可能是會分批賄賂並不是一次性的賄賂就這個個案來講因為這個個案那時候在美國好像也扣押他4千億台幣左右那詐騙集團那時候聽到首腦聽到這個消息的時候說小錢那台灣這次檢方是扣了45億"},{"start":12073.123,"end":12083.262,"text":"可見就是他如果是橋外之公司的話他匯進來應該都蠻大筆的那所以像投診會在這過程當中都沒有察覺到任何的異狀就對了"},{"start":12085.193,"end":12110.993,"text":"委員提到的可能是比較牽涉到那個洗錢房制還有犯罪的部分那我想那個我們司法機關台灣的司法機關有另案在做我知道我知道 我只是說投審會可以做什麼嘛我們現在就是在講經濟部在這個環節可以做什麼嘛我想未來我們會針對那個就像銀行好了銀行現在如果有人去領十萬塊也會一直提醒啊領的錢不要被騙"},{"start":12111.693,"end":12135.675,"text":"就大家都會在這個防詐阻詐的過程當中因為以前我們管制的密度如果它金額比較高的我們會專案審查但是金額比較小密度就沒有那麼高了那我想因為這個案子它有很明顯的就是說它都會集中在某一個地區然後在那個地區裡面事實上有很多公司成立"},{"start":12137.092,"end":12154.611,"text":"那將來類似這樣的案子或什麼樣的形態的案子因為說老實話這些詐騙集團他層出不窮那類似這樣的形態或什麼我們就會加強審查如果他講不清楚我們就會否決掉就是大家都多做點什麼啦因為這個詐騙集團真的是很可惡因為政府現在越打越炸"},{"start":12155.612,"end":12175.268,"text":"他就一直會變一直會變但是我們也要滾動式的來因應他們這一個太子集團是因為他金額非常大然後所以大家會覺得比較特別關注而且都是朝外資所以才來問經濟部啦是是是然後再來問一下上次總質詢也有跟部長就教就是你們要發那個商務卡"},{"start":12175.987,"end":12188.102,"text":"那我是覺得那個商務卡沒什麼效益啦因為我出國也沒有人給我錢啊還是你有參考什麼國外的經驗出國是國外的商務客可以拿到錢的"},{"start":12188.976,"end":12215.625,"text":"你們這個商務卡是有外國人對 你的外國人來給他兩千塊然後讓他吃飯 讓他坐車 讓他去旅遊一般來說外國人來這邊絕對會花兩千塊以上你發錢給他只是國人在幫他花他本來就會花的錢然後這個部分我覺得很奇怪啦我認為你們再評估一下然後還有一個很奇怪是你預算編列的方式你預算是編在對國內團體捐助"},{"start":12218.766,"end":12242.215,"text":"你這個錢明明就是人家來台灣你給人家錢那為什麼你是編在對國內團體捐助的編了18億沒有沒有沒有編到18億我們是編2億編2億 對不起 編2億各10百千萬 2億那是那是為什麼是編在對國內補助"},{"start":12245.086,"end":12265.034,"text":"因為 報告委員因為透過這樣的計畫我們可以促進國內商圈這些發展然後有助於國內的經濟發展不是 你是編給對國內團體補助那不是是要給外國人嗎那是由國內團體發給外國人喔對 因為申請的話是包括有比如說申請舉辦國內會議或者會展的產業這些由他們來申請"},{"start":12270.496,"end":12285.043,"text":"他們來申請然後由他們來發那中間又有很多集合的問題囉會有很多這個這看起來太不嚴謹了吧國內納稅錢然後隨便給國內的那你們預計是跟哪個國內團體合作我們會跟外貿協會合作然後由外貿協會來發給那些從國外來的商務客"},{"start":12295.521,"end":12308.686,"text":"我們會透過跟外貿協會合作然後來做好很完整的一些管考的工作然後這個包括申請那個會長跟那個會議的這些來跟我們一起做申請最後再問好謝謝謝謝我們謝謝葉元智委員的質詢謝謝我們登記發言的委員"},{"start":12319.435,"end":12343.076,"text":"除不在場者外 其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員參與與陳昌明索提書面諮詢列入記錄刊登公報 書面執行及未及答覆部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答覆並赴資本會 委員另有要求期限者 從其所定"},{"start":12346.076,"end":12349.72,"text":"我們中午不休息後延長開會到議程處理完畢我們討論事項合併巡查結束"},{"start":12355.772,"end":12382.581,"text":"現在進行逐條討論請醫事人員宣讀所有條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀企業併購法部分條文修正草案行政院提案第44條之二公司於本條文生效日起算五年內依第29條規定被它寄存或新設公司收購為期百分之百"},{"start":12383.141,"end":12406.683,"text":"持股之子公司該收購公司被收購公司及其股東符合一定要件且該收購公司經國家發展委員會認定為產業控股公司者被收購公司之股東就讓與被收購公司股份與該產業控股公司作為對價抵繳其成購該產業控股公司所發行新股"},{"start":12407.881,"end":12428.22,"text":"或發起設立所需股款部分之證券交易所得得選擇免與記錄股份轉換當年度基本所得額一經責定不得變更經依前項規定選擇免與記錄股份轉換當年度基本所得額者於實際轉讓該產業控股公司股份或與該股份"},{"start":12429.481,"end":12449.037,"text":"帳部劃撥至開設之有價證券保管劃撥帳戶時應將全部轉讓價格增於或作為遺產分配時之時價或撥轉日之時價作為該轉讓或撥轉年度之收益與減除其所讓與被收穫公司股份之取得成本或費用後"},{"start":12449.978,"end":12464.808,"text":"計算該產業控股公司股份之交易所得並以股東持有被收購公司股份之日至轉讓或撥轉該產業控股公司股份之日計算股份持有期間依所得基本稅額條例規定申報課徵所得稅"},{"start":12469.295,"end":12493.002,"text":"第一項收購公司與被收購公司與被收購公司股東會首次通過股份轉換之決議日具有控制與從屬關係者不適用前二項規定第一項收購公司應與股份轉換次年度1月31日以前依規定格式及檢附相關文件向國家發展委員會申請認定為產業控股公司"},{"start":12493.862,"end":12511.795,"text":"預期不予受理國家發展委員會應於同年度3月31日以前函附認定結果其竟認定為產業控股公司者應於認定函宋達之次日起算15日內依財政部規定格式並檢其股東責定免予記錄股份"},{"start":12513.076,"end":12530.293,"text":"轉換當年度基本所得額相關文件向公司所在地稅捐基徵機關申請核准被收購公司之股東適用第一項及第二項規定欲其不予受理其經核准者被收購公司之股東使得適用第一項及第二項規定"},{"start":12531.454,"end":12554.931,"text":"第二項所稱轉讓值買賣交換證與作為遺產分配公司減資消除股份公司清算因併購或其他原因致股份所有權變更者被收購公司之股東依第一項規定責定適用免許記錄股份轉換當年度基本所得額者如有收購公司經撤銷貨幣值"},{"start":12556.632,"end":12585.558,"text":"產業控股公司之認定或收購公司被收購公司或其股東不符合第一項鎖定一定要件之情形被收購公司之股東因於撤銷廢止之日或不符合一定要件之日期一定期間內以股份轉換時之證券交易所得記錄股份轉換當年度之基本所得額依法計算因補繳之所得稅並因自轉換年度所得稅結算申報"},{"start":12586.398,"end":12596.504,"text":"期間屆滿之次日起至繳納日址依各年度1月1日郵政儲金一年期定期儲金固定利率按日加計利息一併繳納"},{"start":12598.567,"end":12615.478,"text":"被售貨公司之股東依第一項規定則定適用名譽記錄股份轉換當年度基本所得額者其實際轉讓產業控股公司股份或該股份帳部劃撥至開設之有價證券保管劃撥帳戶時產業控股公司英語轉讓日或撥轉日"},{"start":12619.941,"end":12642.716,"text":"次年度1月31日以前依財政部規定格式向該管稅捐基金機關列單申報已轉讓或撥轉之股份資料該次年度1月欲連續三日以上國定假日者列單申報期間延長至2月5日止但產業控股公司有解散合併或分割而消滅情勢時"},{"start":12643.877,"end":12668.025,"text":"因於清算完結之次日或主管機關核准變更登記之次日起10日內向該管稅捐基金機關列單申報第一項產業控股公司之認定要件第三項具有控制與從屬關係第四項申請認定為產業控股公司之程序因檢附文件廢止認定事由"},{"start":12668.857,"end":12692.687,"text":"及其他相關事項之辦法由國家發展委員會會同財政部定之第一項收購公司被收購公司及其股東應符合之一定要見股東責定程序責定適用第一項及第二項租稅措施之股份交易所得之計算第四項向稅捐基金機關申請核准程序應檢附文件第六項應補繳所得稅之計算補繳程序"},{"start":12696.488,"end":12715.32,"text":"因檢附文件及其他相關事項之辦法由財政部定之委員王美惠等20人委員沈發惠等17人分別提案第44條之二同行政院提案委員賴惠元等20人提案第44條之二第一項第三句中符合一定要見後刪除逗號"},{"start":12716.161,"end":12739.634,"text":"第四句中對價後刪除道號第四項第三句中依規定修正為依公告第五項默句中其他原因後加等字第八項倒數第二句中其他相關事項後加等字其餘同行政院提案委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第44條之二除第一項首句修正為公司與本條文生效日起算10年內"},{"start":12740.474,"end":12768.755,"text":"其餘同行政院提案行政院提案第五章之一章名罰則委員網美會等二十人委員審發會等十七人委員賴會員等二十人及委員賴瑞榮等十八人分別提案第五章之一章名同行政院提案行政院提案第五十二條之一產業控股公司違反第四十四條之二第七項規定未依現或未據實申報者稅捐積增機關除限期"},{"start":12770.104,"end":12790.361,"text":"責令補報外儲新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還經稅捐基增機關限期責令補報藉其未補報者儲新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰還委員王美惠等20人委員審發會等17人分別提案第52條之一同行政院提案"},{"start":12791.081,"end":12815.918,"text":"委員賴惠元等20人提案第52條之一第4具聚首加初次二字莫具增加並將該產業控股公司列入稅捐基徵機關未補報記錄等字其餘同行政院提案委員賴瑞榮等18人提案第52條之一第4具之後修正為處新台幣5萬元以上500萬元以下罰還"},{"start":12819,"end":12844.706,"text":"經稅捐基徵機關現期責令補報借期未補報者處心台幣10萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還行政院提案第54條本法自公布後6個月施行本法中華民國某年某月某日修正之條文施行日期由行政院定之委員網美會等20人委員審發會等17人委員賴會員等20人及委員賴瑞榮等18人分別提案"},{"start":12845.39,"end":12873.815,"text":"第54條同行政院提案宣讀完畢謝謝我們現在開始進行我們的協商討論我想今天因為我們先定一個原則我們今天後面還有幾位委員的案子還沒有進來我們今天會充分尊重委員的意見我們到時候還是全案送協商"},{"start":12875.165,"end":12884.038,"text":"然後我會儘快排協商等案子一進來我們會儘快排協商好來我們從44條之二開始這個"},{"start":12892.553,"end":12919.734,"text":"我們請賴銳龍委員我有提一個案子是10年那當然原來是5年但是5年當然我們希望加快速度但是也擔心像過去一樣很多5年後其實時間到了還是需要再延長所以這個部分聽聽看部長的一些想法原來原本就是5年那5年以後會再檢討產生部是這樣講法我們大家就是"},{"start":12921.019,"end":12935.078,"text":"我已經行政院有討論過是不是就以五年這樣我理解了那五年但是五年後如果需要的時候是不是也在持續了就是這個恐怕不一定五年內就能夠說順利的完成好那我們一見"},{"start":12937.04,"end":12951.156,"text":"那麼請楊瓊英委員我還是要建議那個部長因為我們如果這樣回答就是說以往我們都是五年但是此時彼時那時候的情況跟我們現在的樣態不一樣"},{"start":12953.291,"end":12966.204,"text":"對不對所以我們為了要能夠壯大我們的產業我們都不惜說你的這個課稅慢一點時間把它先養大那這樣子呢能夠幫助我們的產業但是就是說"},{"start":12968.249,"end":12988.33,"text":"以往我們確實是所有的幾乎都是五年然後五年再展延五年再展延再展延但是你們是不是也趁還要協商的你們是不是也去想一想到底這五年是不是適合現在的情境跟樣態我覺得這很重要有時候你不用去老民"},{"start":12989.301,"end":13018.47,"text":"因為你時間寬裕一點反而你在這個時間當中你可以多一點選擇可以多一點選擇啊而不是以往就五年啊現在也五年那就就沒有沒有修法的這個這個情境環境的參考價值啊好不好你們去討論看看好不好那個謝謝我們請邱志偉委員那個延續我剛剛質詢幾個問題再提醒一下這個國化會跟財政部"},{"start":13019.19,"end":13046.678,"text":"就是說你未來六個月你要規劃成一套這個執法我建議是可以優先考慮特定的戰略性產業因為我們要提高它的競爭力提高它的研發能力所以你要針對特定戰略性產業比如說信貸產業也好能不能提供更多的這個誘因另外營收規模"},{"start":13048.116,"end":13057.704,"text":"營收規模你要怎麼樣要符合比例原則然後研發的投入的佔比或者甚至你要考慮他有沒有全球佈局計畫等等"},{"start":13058.967,"end":13075.133,"text":"所以這個應該要有一個比較明確的量化指標不能太抽象你就只把定出來一個明確量化指標你未來你要怎麼全球佈局未來你的研發你要投入多少未來你的營收規模要到什麼程度他才能去衡量他有沒有這個意願所以"},{"start":13078.394,"end":13095.884,"text":"我要提醒你的結論就是說你要有一個比較公開、厚明、具體的一個審查機制才不會說太多的空白的授權或者抽象的授權會讓你這個裁量這個權力過大這是第一個問題第二個這個企業要"},{"start":13100.168,"end":13116.025,"text":"說病 或者要過病這個創新 新創這樣 鞏副長您先在國發會下一頁換一位主委這我對新創的重視新創就是第一個它這個需要資金也需要政府更多的協助更多的誘因來鼓勵這個新創"},{"start":13118.502,"end":13140.319,"text":"所以這種情況之下是不是能夠強化我們企業去詬病新創事業的誘因因為我也在炒傳統條約第十條就是說你如果企業收購國發會認定的比較屬於高風險的新創事業也可以納入研發投資的底檢"},{"start":13142.146,"end":13158.62,"text":"我的建議是這樣子你們回去斟酌看看啦我的想法不見得完全正確但是我提供一個方向就是說企業要收購國會認定的高風險的創新科技新創事業是不是也可以納入投資底井的這個範疇"},{"start":13160.001,"end":13175.955,"text":"所以這部分是不是我也會有這個附帶決議能夠針對大型的企業要收購新創事業能不能會同國華會跟財政部提出獎勵性的租賄優稅租賄優稅的辦法第三個問題"},{"start":13179.659,"end":13191.819,"text":"就是說你這個跟財政部比較有相關跟國會如果一家公司他2025年成立控股公司不用在年底但你申報期限是在1月底"},{"start":13193.939,"end":13212.72,"text":"比方說他在上個年底12月成立要到1月底要申報所以你這個用特定日期做申報可能是會不會報稅的原因是不是有比較彈性的做法"},{"start":13213.68,"end":13238.208,"text":"比如說你如果公司必須要11月12月他要到1月底之前完成這個paper work是不是可以完成啊這個可能國發會跟財政部也要去考量一下那第三個最後一個問題就是說一個狀況就是說如果國發會他初步認定想有租稅優惠那後來呢經過你們審查審查需要時間嘛輔導需要時間嘛對不對"},{"start":13240.353,"end":13264.98,"text":"但是你一送件就代表說你租稅優惠已經開始成立了嘛一送件一送件 我要成立這個控制公司一送件 你們收件代表說你的優惠開始成立嘛開始生效嘛對啊 但是如果說經過你們輔導再輔導還是不符合要件"},{"start":13269.929,"end":13283.216,"text":"你必須要很遺憾你要撤銷這認定那這個財政部這部分你這個稅他這個租稅的已經適用那你後來經過幾年的波折又沒有辦法認定"},{"start":13285.1,"end":13302.03,"text":"他是控股公司那你相關的租稅業會要怎麼樣去要怎麼補回來啦這個程序也要讓我們了解也要讓業界能夠知道說萬一真的努力過還是沒辦法經過國安會認定那你相關的租稅業會你要怎麼處理以上問題請教國安會跟財政部還有經濟部"},{"start":13308.511,"end":13332.44,"text":"是 謝謝委員指教 我先就委員最後一部分來做回應因為按照法律 我們現在的修法的規定是他1月底前送來以後 我們兩個月之內會趕快認定所以他是不是想有這個相關的租稅的適用是我們要發認定函之後他才有的 不是說他送件的時候就有所以可以避免剛剛委員提到的一些誤解"},{"start":13334.275,"end":13354.012,"text":"所以認定談之後,租稅優惠才生效是,然後租稅機關要審定他送來的文件也合不合規定那你剛才我請教你的時候,你說還有一個輔導的機制如果他兩個月沒有辦法完成你們的文件要求他再補再補,那補總是有個期限如果他補一年兩年呢?"},{"start":13355.393,"end":13379.519,"text":"我們就是盡量啦因為法律是這樣規定嘛那當他一送其實1月31號是最晚的規定啦其實之前我們就可以跟他們做一些相關的輔導啦沒有我剛剛所擔憂的補稅的程序補稅的問題我想不至於產生他一送件他就認為他有租稅的優惠這點應該是不會有誤解啦也不可能說拖太長 拖太久如果拖到一年"},{"start":13380.949,"end":13395.456,"text":"我們的規定是兩個月之內我們就會給他明確的答案就準薄嘛可是你要說你有一個輔導的機制會盡可能輔導他合乎要件嘛是是因為在中間的過程中或者之後"},{"start":13396.092,"end":13413.272,"text":"他覺得有些不足的部分我們就是剛剛我們主委提到的我們會盡力輔導他看他能不能在這個符合我們法治的情況下能夠盡量來幫助他成立這樣子的控制我就回到剛剛你說營收規模啦研發佔比啦全球佈局等等"},{"start":13413.912,"end":13432.572,"text":"都要有一個明確的指標大概也要可能跟國會再討論一下是不是符合業界的期待當然你要跟業界不只是這個工具機工具機大概是在中部後進也好服務業也好甚至這個AI辦公室也可以所以所有產業你都該去輔導"},{"start":13434.781,"end":13454.377,"text":"是 謝謝委員 委員剛剛提到很多點我想我們在訂執法的時候一定會納入考量也會參考這個立法委員跟那個產業界的意見 謝謝那個主委 剛剛邱哲偉委員那個點很重要就是說你們準博之後可是後面你要去輔導他如果萬一他沒有辦法達到我們的標準"},{"start":13456.418,"end":13469.111,"text":"跟我们辅导的这样的规模那我们多久他这一张所谓准他的这个部分会失效总不可能一年两年三年他的意思是在这个部分"},{"start":13471.378,"end":13495.136,"text":"不好意思我们应该是尽量在他送件前跟送件期间去做辅导没有这是两个月你们说两个月他如果送件之后是两个月两个月对两个月之后当他拿到了核准函核准函之后是不是开始他可以去做这些所谓结合的其实应该之前就在进行了"},{"start":13495.75,"end":13503.728,"text":"那好萬一他納到之後你有給他多少時間要完成這個任務他所送的這個計畫"},{"start":13505.462,"end":13527.597,"text":"跟委員報告 其實應該是說產業控股公司把這些修法通過以後業者就可以採取行動那採取行動做完產業控股公司跟股份的轉換之後他才來送件來試用接下來的租稅優惠所以委員剛剛提到很多事情其實應該在前面的階段就在進行 包含我們的輔導"},{"start":13528.337,"end":13549.226,"text":"好 謝謝我們請楊瓊英委員質詢這個就是說我們今天在詢談或者是現在討論這個法案的時候大家都我想大家的目標就是要協助產業跟國際接軌而且將產業可以做大那鞏固台灣的產業的這個根基我想目標都一致"},{"start":13549.986,"end":13575.862,"text":"那我們經常以往有很多也就是說我們法案通過之後但是它在執行率的效能它不只有效率它的效能產生不出來這是我們現在憂鬱心的一點因為新的政策新的方向新的指標要怎麼樣讓它能落實所以我也謝謝我們的主席就是說今天討論過後送出但是要經過朝野協商我希望"},{"start":13576.522,"end":13597.73,"text":"藉著這個時間點行政部門其實可以同步進行當然你們認為說你企業本來你自己就是你自己要怎麼樣先弄好然後再送來怎麼樣但是我們的確像我們中部地區我們的機械這些工具機、手工具、零組件、扣件、雜車"},{"start":13600.931,"end":13624.592,"text":"等等當然他這個法是涵蓋所有的產業但是我們中部地區是幾乎佔了將近九成那這些人都是從一開始做起他都十八個他就是他實力非常堅強但是呢不管技術實力都非常強但是在整個流程他不一定那麼清楚他不一定那麼清楚所以我倒是建議部長"},{"start":13625.413,"end":13641.858,"text":"你們應該也趁這個時間把你們的這個SOP流程的整個流程你可以去做一個很簡易的指標讓要申請的人可以很清楚我覺得你趁這個時間剛好這個空檔的時間你可以去做這個"},{"start":13645.439,"end":13665.31,"text":"到時候我們院會真的三讀通過之後就可以同步去進行就可以這個這個宣導之我覺得這個很重要要不然我們今天好不容易每一個委員大家都是支持這樣子的一個產業的政策嘛那我們希望能夠推展落實到位對 以上建議"},{"start":13666.914,"end":13694.445,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員我們請邱志偉委員我想42條之二最主要的這個目的不是說從透過大并小變成特大不是Lsize變這個SL應該是我的概念是應該是從這個small size到medium size或從medium size到large size這種概念透過小跟中的結合變成大"},{"start":13695.516,"end":13719.958,"text":"或者中去變小 然後變成大我覺得我的理解概念是這樣子這種情況之下 你的目標就是五年內帶動15家 至少15家換算成一年就是三家嘛 對不對因為三家 我看起來是集中在特定產業譬如說水五金啦 譬如說工具機啦包括這個可能是您說的這個生技"},{"start":13722.506,"end":13747.328,"text":"那更多就是說台灣的98%的企業都是中小企業那怎麼中小企業透過這個修法能夠透過這個控股公司的這個修法成立這個控股公司是由小變中或者中變大一定要反映在對中小企業跟區域均衡"},{"start":13748.646,"end":13763.393,"text":"我說很多大企業都集中在北部 在新竹在中部 南部比較少大型的企業 當然也有但是我們需要說透過這個修法讓更多的中小企業變成中型或是中大型的企業"},{"start":13765.345,"end":13788.101,"text":"所以應該把這個能量輔導機制做一個區域均衡怎麼樣做到區域均衡那就是你這個相關執法的規劃設計比較重要那怎麼樣讓中小企業能夠透過這個控股公司能夠變成一個中型或者中大型的企業這是我們這次修法最主要的目標那要達成這個目標呢"},{"start":13789.096,"end":13812.745,"text":"可以是六個月之內您在國會跟財政部跟金融所提出的執法非常非常的關鍵非常非常重要我們會全力支持謝謝邱志偉委員我們現在這個針對我們是四條之二大家有沒有意見沒有那我們就照行政院版通過那我們再來第五章之一法則"},{"start":13814.425,"end":13818.286,"text":"這一條的部分我是有提出來加重 就是他原來"},{"start":13835.91,"end":13847.936,"text":"的金額 這個只有5萬到50啦那包括如果預期沒有申報是10萬到100但我認為其實這個對於賀足利 一方面是並過過企業其實應該對更嚴謹處理這事情啦 這種錯誤不應該犯"},{"start":13851.658,"end":13872.078,"text":"第二是我也認為把這個幾句拉開了之後當然一般通常行政機關第一開始罰的話通常是最輕的會去罰所以並不影響到五萬十萬這樣的罰法但是如果這是個惡行重大惡意的刻意的話那也給行政機關有更大的空間去做處理了從過去一段時間很多事情常常發生這種"},{"start":13873.679,"end":13886.185,"text":"政府常常說汙染重罰30萬結果他可能獲利上億結果你重罰30萬然後講的是我們法令上限值到30萬所以我希望接下來這樣的修法型態我希望能夠把那個Range拉開來讓"},{"start":13888.346,"end":13914.687,"text":"清的當然那個的話政府有裁量我相信多數都是從最基本的罰期但是如果他的惡行重大惡意的刻意的時候那我們也給行政機關有很大的一個空間去嚇阻最重要是嚇阻啦你有嚇阻力的時候這件事情就不會輕易發生如果沒有嚇阻力的話往往就會形成我獲利很高但是反正罰則上限只有這樣而已我就可以所以我希望行政機關能夠考慮裁量我的一個修法 謝謝"},{"start":13916.669,"end":13936.265,"text":"其實這個法則它不是因為針對行為法行為法當然有惡意跟虛意跟非故意那這個我覺得針對程序法程序法有時候非超是在他們可能一些文件或者時間上面他沒有辦法如實的去達成這個實現"},{"start":13938.527,"end":13950.446,"text":"所以我認為這個行為法跟程序法的部分這個比例上我比較支持院版的就是說你如果為醫或為據實申報 社群機關第一次就是5萬到50萬"},{"start":13952.78,"end":13976.418,"text":"那又未補報10萬到100萬我覺得這個應當是符合比例原則不會有人故意去說他這個不申報或者是去錯報這個蓄意的可能性應該是不大只是說他可能沒辦法在實現上面去完成所以我建議我建議還是用願版"},{"start":13981.158,"end":13992.116,"text":"如果罰則太高啊 人家會降低他誘因 哇 我就沒得生氣了 但是我無所謂不合適 還有你換一百萬 還有你換 這樣可能會降低誘因"},{"start":13994.392,"end":14012.998,"text":"楊卓英委員我覺得兩邊講的都有道理本人的提案也覺得說我從一在第一條開始我們在討論的時候我覺得行政院你必須要依照目前的情境環境去設定而不是你依照以往的法規甚至數字都一樣"},{"start":14013.998,"end":14042.907,"text":"這樣就沒有符合你把比如說你把民國80年的你拿到現在來跟現在的產業環境條件方向也不一樣政策也不一樣如果都是這樣我也覺得高度質疑當然我們覺得如果依照以前這麼低那你也沒有什麼二足作用那你如果高又怕他們會害怕但是這個邏輯我也覺得怪怪的所以我還是建議主席這樣我們要協商你應該是請行政部門"},{"start":14043.707,"end":14063.338,"text":"你們再去討論我還是慎重的說都跟以前一樣的只是衣服換不一樣那你的效能怎麼可能會出來我覺得不可能因為你一個法通過之後新法通過之後鼓勵這個政策你一定有你的KPI出來"},{"start":14064.418,"end":14089.089,"text":"你一定有所以應該要去把這些要去好好討論一下趁這個在未來送出我們時間不言當但是呢趁這個時間你們好好去討論一下到時候我們朝野協商的時候可以把真正的數字或者是真正的這個方向流程去把它定出來我是覺得這樣比較慎重來 以上建議"},{"start":14089.889,"end":14094.294,"text":"好 謝謝那我們這一條我們就先請我們的這個行政那請行政部行政部門剛剛說他們都可以好 那個當初規定"},{"start":14108.761,"end":14132.202,"text":"當初為定這個5萬跟50萬還有這個10萬跟100萬的部分因為這個法的部分有一些橫平性因為其他的產狀條例等等大概有這樣的一個法則那另外一個按照這個法的體力過去來講的話最低跟最高通常差10倍通常是這樣子"},{"start":14133.206,"end":14153.293,"text":"那如果要擴大的情況之下的話這些主管機關他就要訂定不同級距的這個款T人出來那大家所擔心的說那會不會罰太輕但是院版的部分因為他可以連續罰你如果叫你"},{"start":14154.335,"end":14167.935,"text":"叫你改正你不改正這次100萬他可以再罰100萬再罰100萬還是可以達成嚇阻的效果所以當初會訂這樣的這個金額是有這樣的考量以上說明我想請教財政部副市長"},{"start":14171.44,"end":14195.417,"text":"這個基本上它是延遲剋稅不是減稅所以因為延遲剋稅財政部負稅署才會支持如果是減稅的話你們可能立場又可能比較不一樣基本上我認為這個宣法是不會有任何犯罪的惡意犯罪惡意行為的動機所以我一直強調這是行政程序法行政程序的法有時候非昭示在業者"},{"start":14197.402,"end":14210.882,"text":"我是認為大概5萬到50萬10萬到100萬是比較符合也跟那個產商條例的相關法則做接軌啦我就這樣補充 那請教一下那個負稅署您的立場 副署長"},{"start":14212.208,"end":14239.41,"text":"是 包委員我們當初設計的時候就是比較類似的因為我們認為說類似的情境 類似的行為我們給他類似的對待嘛那現在產創條例跟申請醫藥產業發展條例都有這個就是說我們責令公司要做通報的時候他如果違反這個通報應的處罰那也都是相同的法度所以我們是建議說可以維持跟其他法律類就是相同的行為做相同的處理這樣子"},{"start":14244.391,"end":14256.507,"text":"來 瓊瑛這個就是我們在討論當中我是希望行政部每年還聽進去你舉生醫那個例子跟我們這個企業併購絕對是不一樣的所以你要以你自己經濟部你要以你自己"},{"start":14258.106,"end":14285.985,"text":"這就是我講的啊 你從民國80年就是這樣 你到現在還這樣你現在也是拿別人的怎樣 你要以你自己怎樣能夠去 因為這個是很關鍵這個是一個產業新的政策是非常的關鍵比如說我們台中也有四個兄弟四家機械廠我們把他們四家只要三個結盟在一起我們就有機會去跟人家拼了我們是在鼓勵這個嘛 對不對"},{"start":14287.546,"end":14300.092,"text":"是不是這樣子對啊所以這個是一個很翻新的一個概念你們應該要與你所以本期還是建議你再去討論看看我們在這個下一次我們會再排協商然後我們把所有的認為我們這次提案的原因在哪裡重點在哪裡那怎麼去做溝通協調這比較重要所以我們這個案子先保留"},{"start":14316.803,"end":14317.247,"text":"那第54条"},{"start":14320.653,"end":14348.014,"text":"有沒有意見沒有好我們54條照行政院原本通過那我們宣讀附帶決議附帶決議第一案本次修正草案為避免租稅緩課優惠被腐爛使用適用資格將由國發會進行認定並會同財政部訂定相關執法預計修法通過後6個月內公告然為確保認定標準不應過於嚴苛致使適用產業受限"},{"start":14348.735,"end":14369.834,"text":"原請國發會及財政部一個月內就優惠適用認定標準提供初步架構及書面報告於本院經濟委員會提案人邱志偉 連署人賴瑞榮 陳亭飛第二案 請財政部及國家發展委員會針對一 主動撤銷所得稅優惠及追溯補稅"},{"start":14371.348,"end":14390.167,"text":"之程序及適用期間之相關判準與法律依據及檢討是否得追溯既往年度以為稅制公平與行政可預測性二就僅適用撤銷後年度之補稅設計評估其與信賴保護原則比例原則及租稅"},{"start":14391.448,"end":14400.476,"text":"中立性資關聯提出具體修法方向三 參佐延遲課稅機制嚴禮建立緩衝或延遲補稅機制以便企業得以合理調整財報及稅務規劃"},{"start":14407.555,"end":14430.043,"text":"確保租稅優惠制度設計之公平與穩定請財政部與國家發展委員會於一個月內將上述檢討與建議報告送交本院經濟委員會提案人邱志偉 連署人賴瑞榮 陳亭飛第三案 國發會日前說明預計五年內帶動至少一定規模之十五家產業控股公司成立"},{"start":14430.643,"end":14454.262,"text":"但評估指標若僅止於成立加速恐怕難以真正反映出中小企業是否真正被政策覆蓋請國家發展委員會於一個月內針對五年內帶動至少一定規模之十五家產業控股公司中對中小企業與區域均衡的目標達成策略提出書面報告於本院經濟委員會"},{"start":14455.603,"end":14477.444,"text":"提案人 邱志偉 連署人 賴瑞榮 陳亭飛第四案 請經濟部 國發會 財政部出於本次修法針對化齡為整的產業控股公司提供租稅緩課優惠外另應研議針對大型企業收併購新創事業提出租稅抵減優惠修法草案"},{"start":14480.126,"end":14505.043,"text":"並於三個月內提出書面報告與本院經濟委員會提案人邱志偉、連署人賴瑞榮、陳亭飛宣讀完畢主席這個附帶決議四項都是我提的我稍微做一些補充第一案大概就是初步架構不是說你完整的細部內容初步架構我希望說能夠一個月之後讓我們知道你未來執法定義的方向跟架構第二案如果你們認為這個沒有所謂補稅的問題"},{"start":14508.406,"end":14522.546,"text":"如果財政部認定沒有什麼補稅的問題第二案事實上我可以測案我可以測案然後其實第三案的部分時間上面你如果說一個月不夠也可以到兩個月另外第四案的部分"},{"start":14523.988,"end":14549.301,"text":"是三個月內這個當然這個需要有比較多時間討論三個月之內把這個怎麼樣收購國會所認定的高風險創新科技產業納入投資抵減的範疇需要多點時間所以我提出三個月以上補充說明謝謝那我們一案一案來處理所以志偉你說你第幾案撤掉沒有我先聽他們說法我們先第一案我們有問題"},{"start":14555.206,"end":14573.261,"text":"第二案確實他如果後續有發現有不符合相關要件是會有追捕程序的所以那個那你說可能有這種樣態那我這個就就就維持那一個月夠不夠一個月可以 第三案"},{"start":14581.809,"end":14600.218,"text":"第三案競表同意第四案我們同意那我們附帶決議都照我們委員提案通過來請宣讀寫商結論先讀寫商結論企業併購法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":14600.751,"end":14623.498,"text":"增訂第44條之二 照行政提案通過增訂第5章之一章名 照行政提案通過增訂第52條之一 保留送運費處理第54條 照行政提案通過附帶決議第一案 遭案通過第二案 遭案通過第三案 遭案通過第四案 遭案通過 宣讀完畢"},{"start":14625.128,"end":14648.813,"text":"請問各位來請問我們的同仁有沒有意見我們討論事項左列議案審查完略並按凝聚審查報告提報院會討論本案需交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席說明"},{"start":14650.734,"end":14663.822,"text":"審查通過的條文相關法資用語授權主席及議事人員整理本日所列議程均已處理完畢謝謝大家現在散會謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}