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謝謝主席這邊有請劉秘書長 施部長請劉秘書長跟施部長還有懷旭 抱歉抱歉 施部長就可以了好 謝謝好 那麼這個首先請教兩位因為我們知道其實行政院在6月26號前幾天他們就公布了有關於楊真尼政委的構成職場霸凌案那在這個報告當中呢其實也寫得很清楚楊真尼長期利用權勢持續地以"},{"start":34.497,"end":50.005,"text":"冒犯、責罵、打斷發言等等這些負面方式去否定部署然後造成極其不友善的工作空間但是這個報告一公佈之後其實身為政務官的楊真寧他已經就是透過經貿辦的公家資源來發表聲明然後他大肆的反其行政院的調查"},{"start":54.247,"end":72.228,"text":"基本上是聽信少數人士的片面言辭欠缺正當程序所以呢在這邊想請教是如果說調查程序真的像楊振寧所言的欠缺正當程序那麼行政院的內部調查是不是就是一個兒戲就是根據兩位所了解這次行政院的調查委員會裡面的組成"},{"start":74.771,"end":87.025,"text":"幾乎都是行政院自己內部的人員嗎還是全部都是外部的人員我的理解他應該都有外部人員目前沒有聽說在程序面或者是組成上面有任何的問題"},{"start":88.388,"end":109.994,"text":"那我當然本心很希望就是說在這次的這個調查委員會他調查報告本身是具有專業而且公正客觀的那當然現在的這個情況就是卓榮泰已經宣布楊真尼停職但是對於停職的這件事情本心在這裡是有疑問的對於政務官有所謂的停職嗎"},{"start":112.489,"end":132.578,"text":"停職這個概念應該是屬於公務人員常任文官他如果說有些違法事實的話可能在整個的懲處或是進行到懲戒的時候他有所謂停職但是政務人員有所謂的停職嗎這是代表什麼意思代表之後一個月兩個月之後楊真寧又可以再回任政務人員嗎又可以回來當政務委員嗎"},{"start":138.959,"end":165.384,"text":"我們從制度上來講啦 政務官就是去留就是什麼 政務官就是去留嘛那所謂他應該就是說 從今天一號起就解聘或是不續聘或不聘任楊真寧那講了一個這種讓人似是而非的一個概念 停職這叫政治性停職嗎這政治性停職不是我們法律停職的概念"},{"start":166.329,"end":175.907,"text":"這相關人事程序的狀況可能要由行政院來說明這個我們就不了解對 但是就是說從考試院 從學習部的角度來看"},{"start":177.658,"end":196.836,"text":"停職基本上是只有常任文官才有的停職對不對那所以政務人員本身沒有停職的概念而這也是就是本席為什麼一直認為說其實政務官目前他就是缺乏一個專法的規範像楊真你這個事件你說他是可以去准用公務人員保障法的規定嗎"},{"start":198.578,"end":225.239,"text":"好像似乎似乎是不行對不對那所以就是對於就是徵務人員他如果有嚴重的違法失職然後涉及到像這次那麼情節嚴重的職場霸凌要就是直接送懲戒了但是行政院好像沒有送懲戒而只是停職他們會送懲戒嗎 據你們瞭解這個我不瞭解不過處理 那因為這個"},{"start":226.57,"end":229.297,"text":"任官任免本來就是首長的權責"},{"start":230.788,"end":254.717,"text":"是 所以任免嘛所以這個卓榮泰正確的做法應該是直接免職楊振尼楊振尼政委的這個職務是直接免職而不是用停職的概念所以卓榮泰的這個居心我覺得很奇怪如果他今天不同意或是他也認為楊振尼的行為是不對的話就該免職啦"},{"start":257.378,"end":269.846,"text":"或不聘任了 而不是說是用這種停職的方式這讓我又想起 又回想起之前監察院長 前監察院秘書長 前監察院秘書長李俊應濫用公務車 帶個送狗去美容的這件事情這件事情也是鬧得沸沸揚揚最後監察院有沒有處理沒有處理 說為什麼沒有處理 因為他辭職了所以辭職之後 連一點點的懲處都沒有"},{"start":285.322,"end":304.43,"text":"由此可見為什麼本席一再的提出必須要制定政務人員法政務人員專法的重要性否則我們現在對於政務人員的一些違法失職或是他在行為上面有毀損機關名譽等等這些事情是沒有辦法去規範的"},{"start":307.952,"end":332.397,"text":"希望透過這個案例可以請考試院跟全序部要支持本席所提出的政務人員法草案我要預告我很快我就會排審逐條審了這個希望這個全序部跟考試院可以積極的提出你們的想法跟對案好嗎好那回到我們今天討論的這個案子就是我也看了全序部也很"},{"start":333.82,"end":349.779,"text":"用心的提出了公務人員考機法的修正雖然說你們在新聞稿跟草案總說明裡面寫得洋洋灑灑說是要重塑考機制度可是其實本席看了你們這次的修法我只是有幾個疑問還是想要就教部長"},{"start":352.782,"end":378.572,"text":"就是說你們這次其實之所以要提出公務員員考積法我想最後最關鍵的一點就是大家不滿現在的考積的假等制度因為它會連結到有關於這個考積獎金的問題那麼可是像現在考積獎等75%的上限和基層文官的輪流赤倚的這個漏息在這一次你們的改革當中"},{"start":379.332,"end":392.485,"text":"把加一餅丁然後改成了優良良好未達良好等等三個等次可是對於公務人員最在乎的那個考接獎金的能夠拿考接獎金的比例的部分"},{"start":393.581,"end":408.993,"text":"你們在法條裡面有明文定出嗎還是說你們的政策方向是什麼是認為說還是不要定那又回歸到原點是不是以後機關裡面又慢慢形成一種默契"},{"start":409.861,"end":434.584,"text":"我會啦 我跟委員報告現行的制度也沒有定比例啦那是實務上的一個做法但是我們這一次反過來就是說我們就把如果你要考列同仁未打良好你一定要符合我們法條應該是第八條第七條很多法定的室友你才可能考這個那如果你要能夠考同仁優秀那未來我們在適應細則裡面明定哪些款要才能優秀那簡單講如果不是這兩類"},{"start":435.888,"end":452.474,"text":"自然就是中間的這個就所謂的良好的良好就有一個月的獎金所以這不會有什麼輪流不輪流的一個議題我們還是回到核實事實上考計畫本身的本質就是希望大家核實只是過去可能大家執行上也許我們剛才那裡講的不過其實我們這次就用這種"},{"start":454.314,"end":473.143,"text":"這種方式來處理但是我就說他長期運作下來實務上就變成一個默契假等的大概就是75%的比例最近這幾年更高現在就算更高那也是他的八成就是他機關裡面內部單位還是有個默契在"},{"start":474.264,"end":497.444,"text":"就不會是所有的人都會是假等那可是你們現在改了這個方案之後我也看不出來是能夠解決過去大家所質疑的那個問題嗎所以基本上就是不會有輪流的問題啦不會有輪流那當然我也很好奇那未來機關怎麼編預算以後機關的預算就是全部都先編這個編列考協獎金都是以優秀的標準來編訂嗎我想"},{"start":500.347,"end":529.15,"text":"如果我們不可能說讓大家都是優秀那麼最重要就是說優秀還是要符合那個嚴格的一個比例啊所以部長你應該又回答那個問題那如果真的每個同仁都很優秀不是那優秀的因為我要講的是說那個從我們管理上的角度來講你要認定一個同仁優秀一定是他對於這個機關有非常明確清楚的這個很重要的業務上的貢獻所以從民間企業跟我們過去的實務上的觀點優秀的比例一定不能"},{"start":529.77,"end":537.855,"text":"如果優秀比例又變成很高就讓他輪流去當優秀了又回到原來的問題又沒解決了所以這也是本席擔心的所以不會說我們預算的編列上應該會以良好這個單位的長官才是優秀因為所有的功勞都是長官都拿走了所以我剛剛已經提過說我們都是用條件說長官沒有這個條件也不能打優秀因為最後那個程序還是到考試委員會去做處理"},{"start":553.886,"end":566.714,"text":"那回到委員剛剛講預算的部分我想這個行政院應該會有一個通案的一個方式就像現在來講我們在編人事費就有一個通案的一個人事費編列的一個方式我想會在那裡面去處理應該不會有任何問題啦好接下來我還要再問第三個問題就是說有關於就是你們在政策草案裡面你們訂了這個未達良好的具體條件只要工作考機被扣上未達良好的話原則上給予半年的改善期"},{"start":580.623,"end":607.275,"text":"那期滿如果沒有符合期待或者三年內有第二次考機列未達良好的話就會直接予以免職其實這個法律效果是挺重的可是我們現在看到就是說你們所列你們在草案第八條第1項裡面你們列的那些免職考列未達良好的理由基本上是還蠻模糊的譬如說辦理業務態度惡劣"},{"start":610.236,"end":639.476,"text":"或工作推诿怠慢工作品质不佳或是影响工作团队合作等等的这些概念基本上是属于法律的不确定这个冲向的概念其实未来在实行的时候会不会又造成就是有点像我们现在讲的教育部的那个校事会议一样你看了太多的这种不确定的法律的这些名词在那里然后之后呢变成这个长官我要给下属我要打"},{"start":641.682,"end":666.792,"text":"未達良好的考機然後寫理由寫理由的話人家就反對什麼叫做我跟團隊不合作什麼叫工作怠慢推諉這會不會產生這樣的一個問題我跟委員報告兩點第一個現在這些室友我想基本上打考機還是一個管理的事項那現行的制度上這些字眼也都出現了但是最後要怎麼去判斷"},{"start":667.532,"end":695.394,"text":"那我們這一次就多加了很多程序面譬如像說如果你要打人家未打良好第一個你一定要這些事有具體事實的記錄第二個你一定要進行面談等於你要先示警啦在最後打之前就要先示警然後讓他知道我為什麼打你這個然後最後你要做一些改善如果到年終的時候還是沒有改善才會進入到打你這個未打良好至少要經過考機委員會的同意所以我的意思是說這種事情永遠是沒有辦法"},{"start":697.996,"end":716.475,"text":"百分之百不可能但是我們盡可能在操作這個事情未來公務機關的場合就會變成像現在學校教育的環境一樣變得每個公務員就是人人自危然後以後動不動就是要收證然後隨時要記錄這個長官說我不合作我要去"},{"start":717.676,"end":723.06,"text":"記錄起來我有哪裡不合作長官說我這個工作怠慢或是態度惡劣我很擔心就是說未來這個公務環境會不會又變成我跟您報告以過去實務的執行不好意思還有最後一個問題然後就是有關於就是你們在這裡面有針裂草案第17條裡面你們寫了就是一次計兩大過免職的事這是這個規定"},{"start":746.357,"end":764.791,"text":"那麼這表面上看起來你們在第17條一次計兩大過免職的這個具體室友似乎是顯得比較清楚比較明確但是呢我們想了解就是說因為呢其實在裡面的很多的免職室友他基本上應該是屬於公務人員懲戒法所以工程法裡面應該要移送"},{"start":765.411,"end":785.442,"text":"懲戒法院審理的司法懲戒的範疇可是你現在卻把它全部都收攏到行政機關裡面透過公務人員考記法裡面直接就來處理等於用行政懲處相當程度的去取代了司法懲戒所以本席這邊也是對於這樣的一個制度會感到質疑"},{"start":788.705,"end":794.94,"text":"認為這樣的一個處理狀況是否妥當尤其是免職 它是情節非常嚴重的一個室友"},{"start":796.161,"end":819.03,"text":"我跟委員報告我想社會期待行政機關作為一個行政機關他對於同仁如果有違法或者是不當的行為一定要及時做處理我想社會很期待我們行政要做這個事情那所以這一次其實我們叫行政懲處上是在強化這個部分的對社會上做回應至於行政機關的懲處過程當然一定要"},{"start":820.03,"end":846.18,"text":"進行準法律的保障程序所以才有那一個一次就要怎麼樣進去進行那最後如果當事人不同意他當然還是可以去有他救濟的一個方式所以他不會有任何的一個權力上的損失因為現在公務員的話重大的這種失職或者免職的話基本上都是移交到執行界法院去處理嘛當然行政職務也不是不可以做那本席只是想要強調就是說因為大法官在113年的憲判自第9號第10號判決裡面其實寫得很清楚"},{"start":849.241,"end":862.422,"text":"行政機關握有免職權但是為了要維持行政紀律所不可或缺的最小限度內的行政手段才能夠去行使所以本席這邊是提醒今天局局部你們所提的這個案子"},{"start":864.605,"end":868.329,"text":"似乎有可能未來或許會跟司法懲戒權會有互相競合的問題所以我今天我想我也不在這邊跟部長跟考試院這裡多做討論我是希望就是詮釋部可不可以在兩周內針對草案的第17條以及公務員懲戒法的事由重疊的部分"},{"start":885.609,"end":898.929,"text":"還有你們未來在遇到相關的案你們怎麼樣的處理的方式給我一份報告好嗎好 沒有問題好 那我們等到這個相關的法條要再進行主條審查的時候我們再來討論對 沒有問題謝謝委員 支持整部法律好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}