{"error":false,"id":["170197"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170197,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170197","日期":"2026-07-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-19-19","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":19,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-01T09:43:05+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-01T10:00:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:17:41","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9acec96def1c57a0095d7789928a886f01881ccc59e5c68641775006cf0b37b233e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪毓祥","委員發言時間":"09:43:05 - 10:00:46","會議時間":"2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢。\n【7月1日及7月2日二天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":7.574093750000001,"end":9.160343750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":9.278468750000002,"end":11.742218750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":11.961593750000002,"end":14.340968750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":14.543468750000002,"end":14.796593750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":15.15096875,"end":15.25221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":15.42096875,"end":15.84284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":21.42846875,"end":22.15409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":22.39034375,"end":23.200343750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":24.16221875,"end":24.668468750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":26.23784375,"end":47.17971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":47.922218750000006,"end":48.31034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":48.74909375,"end":60.86534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":61.67534375,"end":64.00409375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":64.57784375,"end":65.69159375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":66.63659375,"end":67.36221875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":68.32409375,"end":70.72034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":71.61471875000001,"end":79.59659375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":80.30534375,"end":84.32159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":85.18221875,"end":86.24534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":86.81909375000001,"end":89.87346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":90.37971875000001,"end":90.75096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":91.72971875,"end":92.80971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":93.02909375,"end":98.78346875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":99.00284375000001,"end":100.15034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":100.62284375,"end":103.79534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":104.23409375,"end":105.75284375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":106.10721875,"end":106.57971875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":107.84534375000001,"end":111.79409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":112.18221875,"end":118.44284375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":118.72971875,"end":121.59846875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":122.49284375,"end":125.34471875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":125.74971875000001,"end":127.35284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":127.80846875,"end":129.31034375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":129.44534375,"end":131.84159375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":132.16221875000002,"end":134.38971875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":134.69346875000002,"end":136.61721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":137.74784375000002,"end":143.01284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":143.45159375,"end":146.92784375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":147.55221875,"end":149.29034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":149.71221875,"end":152.27721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":153.25596875000002,"end":158.41971875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":159.60096875000002,"end":163.66784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":164.27534375000002,"end":165.50721875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":166.38471875000002,"end":167.14409375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":167.63346875000002,"end":171.73409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":172.07159375,"end":175.29471875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":175.53096875,"end":176.08784375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":176.52659375000002,"end":181.48784375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":181.65659375,"end":184.62659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":185.21721875,"end":186.41534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":187.32659375,"end":188.91284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":189.60471875000002,"end":191.93346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":192.35534375,"end":196.45596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":196.87784375,"end":201.60284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":202.49721875,"end":203.10471875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":203.54346875000002,"end":204.87659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":205.26471875000001,"end":207.00284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":207.23909375000002,"end":211.59284375000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":211.82909375000003,"end":214.98471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":215.32221875000002,"end":216.70596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":216.97596875000002,"end":227.52284375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":227.82659375,"end":229.00784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":229.21034375000002,"end":240.63471875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":240.98909375000002,"end":244.97159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":245.22471875000002,"end":246.57471875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":247.24971875000003,"end":248.36346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":250.01721875,"end":250.82721875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":251.04659375000003,"end":252.39659375000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":252.83534375000002,"end":255.68721875000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":256.15971875,"end":261.15471875000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":261.39096875,"end":262.31909375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":263.44971875000005,"end":266.28471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":266.92596875000004,"end":276.62909375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":277.52346875,"end":279.27846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":279.54846875000004,"end":282.80534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":282.88971875000004,"end":286.61909375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":287.07471875000005,"end":288.86346875000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":288.96471875000003,"end":288.98159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":289.31909375000004,"end":291.22596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":291.69846875,"end":292.45784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":292.52534375,"end":294.70221875000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":295.36034375,"end":295.78221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":296.87909375000004,"end":299.95034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":300.38909375000003,"end":307.84784375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":308.15159375,"end":309.53534375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":310.22721875,"end":310.68284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":311.37471875,"end":313.92284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":315.35721875,"end":317.34846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":317.61846875000003,"end":323.27159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":324.13221875,"end":329.12721875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":329.48159375,"end":335.16846875000005,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":330.56159375000004,"end":331.75971875000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":331.86096875000004,"end":333.36284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":335.52284375000005,"end":345.42846875000004,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":345.66471875,"end":353.22471875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":345.73221875,"end":347.11596875000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":353.64659375,"end":360.43034375,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":353.83221875000004,"end":354.96284375000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.96284375000005,"end":355.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":355.94159375000004,"end":355.95846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.95846875,"end":355.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":360.48096875000005,"end":360.49784375,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.49784375,"end":360.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":360.71721875000003,"end":361.44284375,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.73409375,"end":360.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":361.44284375,"end":361.51034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":362.67471875,"end":362.69159375000004,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":362.69159375000004,"end":367.39971875000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":367.77096875,"end":371.80409375000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":372.09096875,"end":372.93471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":373.60971875,"end":376.09034375000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":376.68096875000003,"end":379.61721875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":380.32596875,"end":380.61284375,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":382.97534375000004,"end":383.00909375000003,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":383.00909375000003,"end":385.45596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":385.89471875000004,"end":390.53534375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林副署長炤宏","start":395.24346875000003,"end":401.50409375000004,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":402.04409375,"end":405.40221875000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林副署長炤宏","start":405.53721875,"end":420.89346875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林副署長炤宏","start":422.42909375000005,"end":424.23471875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林副署長炤宏","start":424.55534375,"end":424.97721875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":424.97721875,"end":427.71096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":430.44471875000005,"end":433.61721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":433.97159375,"end":438.56159375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":438.56159375000004,"end":450.18846875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":450.30659375000005,"end":455.68971875000005,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":455.68971875000005,"end":461.61284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":462.22034375000004,"end":463.23284375000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":464.44784375,"end":464.78534375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":465.07221875000005,"end":475.61909375000005,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":476.41221875,"end":483.22971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":483.22971875,"end":483.63471875000005,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":484.25909375000003,"end":490.97534375000004,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":486.33471875000004,"end":492.62909375000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":492.08909375,"end":492.51096875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":493.16909375000006,"end":494.95784375000005,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":493.64159375,"end":498.18096875000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":497.23596875000004,"end":497.74221875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":497.84346875000006,"end":506.97284375000004,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":504.42471875,"end":506.82096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":507.56346875,"end":508.87971875000005,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":507.71534375000005,"end":508.05284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":509.21721875000003,"end":509.97659375,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":510.95534375000005,"end":514.51596875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":511.84971875,"end":514.3640937499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":514.66784375,"end":514.95471875,"speaker_score":0.927},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":514.83659375,"end":514.8703437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":514.95471875,"end":518.48159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":521.89034375,"end":523.29096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":523.6284687500001,"end":527.1215937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":527.34096875,"end":528.0834687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":529.6697187500001,"end":536.5715937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":536.92596875,"end":539.9465937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":540.45284375,"end":545.88659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":545.9878437500001,"end":546.03846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":546.07221875,"end":547.03409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":547.15221875,"end":550.81409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":552.36659375,"end":554.2397187500001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":554.2903437500001,"end":562.1540937500001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":562.47471875,"end":562.9978437500001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":563.23409375,"end":569.39346875,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":567.26721875,"end":567.9422187499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":568.6172187500001,"end":571.2834687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":572.05971875,"end":572.61659375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":572.8022187500001,"end":577.57784375,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":577.57784375,"end":584.6653437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":585.01971875,"end":586.97721875,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":586.13346875,"end":587.1628437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"蘇署長文玲","start":588.34409375,"end":598.8572187500001,"speaker_score":0.959},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":595.9040937500001,"end":597.4397187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":598.09784375,"end":602.7722187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":603.26159375,"end":612.71159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":612.9140937500001,"end":616.9978437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":617.2678437500001,"end":617.8247187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":618.1453437499999,"end":618.71909375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":618.9722187500001,"end":620.99721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":621.57096875,"end":627.9665937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":628.7765937500001,"end":631.3247187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":632.35409375,"end":636.7922187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":637.31534375,"end":641.63534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":642.0065937500001,"end":651.8447187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":653.2959687499999,"end":660.1303437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":660.2990937500001,"end":663.48846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":663.9272187500001,"end":666.2390937499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":666.96471875,"end":667.40346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":667.82534375,"end":668.3147187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":669.22596875,"end":671.65596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":672.61784375,"end":676.0434687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":676.2122187500001,"end":680.1440937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":680.48159375,"end":682.9622187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":683.58659375,"end":688.4128437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":688.64909375,"end":692.3953437499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":693.4753437500001,"end":696.12471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":696.22596875,"end":697.9809687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":698.35221875,"end":698.8247187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":699.19596875,"end":701.11971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":701.87909375,"end":702.38534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":703.1615937500001,"end":703.97159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":704.22471875,"end":704.5959687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":704.79846875,"end":709.32096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":710.0803437500001,"end":711.44721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":711.81846875,"end":723.0234687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":723.54659375,"end":723.7153437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":723.90096875,"end":726.3647187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":727.9678437500002,"end":731.12346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":731.91659375,"end":736.86096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":737.6203437500001,"end":740.08409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":742.78409375,"end":743.64471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":746.96909375,"end":748.82534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":750.36096875,"end":751.0359687499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":751.1709687500002,"end":751.9978437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.3515937500001,"end":756.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.26284375,"end":757.4990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.93784375,"end":758.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.96721875,"end":758.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.25409375,"end":761.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.0047187499999,"end":764.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.85659375,"end":766.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":767.0334687500001,"end":767.37096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":767.5734687500001,"end":768.8897187500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":769.7165937500001,"end":774.2390937499999,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":774.4753437500001,"end":775.53846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":775.7578437500001,"end":779.75721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":780.29721875,"end":787.50284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":787.5534687500001,"end":788.44784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":788.88659375,"end":790.6584687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":791.56971875,"end":794.25284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":794.37096875,"end":795.2822187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":795.77159375,"end":797.93159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":800.0915937500001,"end":800.6653437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":802.0828437500002,"end":803.0278437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":803.3484687500002,"end":806.18346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":806.33534375,"end":807.02721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":807.29721875,"end":828.7959687500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":828.96471875,"end":830.9053437500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":831.7322187500001,"end":834.29721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":834.48284375,"end":835.76534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":836.30534375,"end":837.85784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":839.5790937500001,"end":841.33409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":841.9584687500001,"end":848.08409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":849.06284375,"end":857.41596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":857.7197187500001,"end":862.2084687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":862.6640937500001,"end":865.29659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":865.81971875,"end":868.3172187500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":868.4353437500001,"end":871.9622187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":873.00846875,"end":881.14221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":884.8884687500001,"end":888.0947187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":888.6515937500001,"end":893.10659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":893.1740937500001,"end":895.0134687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":896.05971875,"end":901.25721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":901.6453437500002,"end":904.5815937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":904.7334687500002,"end":908.6484687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":908.96909375,"end":909.2390937500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":910.09971875,"end":914.3859687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":915.17909375,"end":925.62471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":925.9622187500001,"end":930.82221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":931.07534375,"end":934.18034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":934.4165937500002,"end":936.0872187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":936.7790937500001,"end":937.4540937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":937.7240937500001,"end":941.31846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":941.92596875,"end":943.47846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":944.6765937500002,"end":945.16596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":945.5034687500001,"end":951.2578437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":951.4097187500001,"end":952.30409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":952.84409375,"end":955.1897187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":956.50596875,"end":957.09659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":957.65346875,"end":958.09221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":959.20596875,"end":960.87659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":961.43346875,"end":962.2603437500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":962.44596875,"end":963.67784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":964.40346875,"end":965.53409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":965.6015937500001,"end":968.9597187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":969.21284375,"end":972.53721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":973.0772187500002,"end":973.98846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":974.41034375,"end":977.1272187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":977.6672187500001,"end":980.4853437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":980.83971875,"end":985.0415937500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":985.78409375,"end":989.69909375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":990.01971875,"end":992.78721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":992.8715937500001,"end":994.1709687500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":994.9809687500001,"end":996.2465937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":998.18721875,"end":998.59221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":998.71034375,"end":998.7947187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":998.86221875,"end":1000.53284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1001.0053437500001,"end":1001.4778437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1001.79846875,"end":1004.17784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1004.8190937500001,"end":1007.7890937500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1008.0928437500002,"end":1008.1772187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1008.39659375,"end":1010.67471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1011.2990937500001,"end":1016.29409375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1016.9522187500002,"end":1017.84659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1018.2009687500001,"end":1020.37784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1020.81659375,"end":1026.1322187500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1026.75659375,"end":1028.6128437500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1029.40596875,"end":1035.7003437500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1036.8984687500001,"end":1037.7422187500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1038.1978437500002,"end":1041.0328437500002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1041.0497187500002,"end":1041.5559687500001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1041.92721875,"end":1044.18846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1044.30659375,"end":1045.30221875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1045.74096875,"end":1046.85471875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1047.4959687500002,"end":1053.18284375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1053.30096875,"end":1054.88721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1055.0559687500001,"end":1055.15721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"洪委員毓祥","start":1055.25846875,"end":1056.13596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1058.8359687500001,"end":1059.5784687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.591,"end":24.637,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請這一個國發會還有三發署跟中緝署 謝謝好 請三位可以可以可以 您坐著就好坐著坐著"},{"start":26.274,"end":47.014,"text":"好我想會排這個質詢是因為我們經濟部管了很多東西不管當然還包含產發那基本上來講產發不用上台沒關係基本上來講包含很多的補助國發的話基本上很多的投資甚至包括我們那時候省的天使基金等等"},{"start":47.975,"end":65.341,"text":"那會有這個問題的發生我覺得跟一些委員講的什麼個案政治我覺得一點關係都沒有因為主要我長期輔導新創很多年那新創事業呢 有人 一堆人來排"},{"start":66.687,"end":89.489,"text":"跟我檢舉那我當然也不能給你們檢舉信函那我是說不太可能啊我們在審查的時候基本上都是剛剛兩位不管相關部會首長講都是合法合規嘛然後符合利益關係的這個立法的所有的規範那只是呢我們去把這個資料找出來之後發現他"},{"start":91.775,"end":106.469,"text":"就是沒有完全的遵守這個利益衝突的法案所以導致有些新創事業覺得說我能力很強但是我可能社會資本關係不夠所以他覺得有點不公平"},{"start":108.17,"end":125.845,"text":"我看了一下當然這些公司的能量都很夠但是所獲得的申請補助或者是沒有通過補助當然這有很多其他因素我們就覺得這是制度上的問題就這個樣子我們在5月26號然後在6月9號、6月22號分別黨團開過記者會然後來找這樣子的一個事情這個事情是就很明顯"},{"start":137.773,"end":157.874,"text":"好 這我就不再贅述那主要的話就是我那時候也覺得還蠻巧的就是整個 如果按照時間軸來看的話蘇角群這樣子他是跨市智能的董事 而且是第二大股然後呢 威如科技的訪管的服務平台AK Swap 他是執行長"},{"start":159.713,"end":188.791,"text":"所以如果你把它跟立衝法的規範弄起來的話也就是你的關係人比如說你是這個機關首長你是各級民意代表然後呢你是在二清等以內的這個清楚按照我們這個立衝法的規定第二條的規定還有第三條這個關係人公職人與關係人的規範它在在的都是具體而成立的"},{"start":189.659,"end":201.245,"text":"那只是很湊巧的就是說在2021年他加入擔任礦事智能擔任董事那之後國發基金的天使投資三發署補助這樣一路下來"},{"start":202.754,"end":227.017,"text":"這些我不能說你違法因為按照我們立法規定就是我的關係人有很厲害的親屬二親等以內家屬這一種所謂的公開公正公平的招標這個都是可以參與的你不能因為說我的爸爸媽媽姐姐妹妹兄弟是擔任民意代表機關首長我就不能參與政府的這一個公共補助平台這一點沒有問題"},{"start":228.078,"end":241.742,"text":"這一點沒有問題但是有問題的地方呢絕對也不是說你的這個他的案子好或不好 案子好或不好也不是你們認定嘛也就是我們審查委員的機制去認定但是這個比較嚴重的問題的話就是根據我們立沖法的這個規定"},{"start":250.046,"end":275.751,"text":"主要是在第14條這裡因為它是屬於符合剛剛的要件所以在第三集這邊基於法定身份來申請這個沒有問題但是呢也就是我們在第四項後面列的你在前項但書第一款之第三款補助交易行為前應主動申請投標文件內據實表明其身份關係"},{"start":277.554,"end":295.465,"text":"好像我在擔任各個審查委員包含這個以前擔任國發機械電子我們每一個案件都要審查委員都要寫有沒有利益迴避對不對有沒有關係利益要衝突有我們就退出這樣的審查可是呢這一個東西我想要問的就是在"},{"start":296.926,"end":312.277,"text":"一個一個來好了就是這個是一定要填的甚至你在補助交易成立之後該機關要連同其身份公司主動公開資所以我想問的是第一個國發基金這邊在當時"},{"start":315.624,"end":342.252,"text":"礦市智能第二大股東董事室書橋的時候他有沒有告訴我們這些審查他有沒有填這個利益迴避關係表在這邊跟委員報告我們不會針對個案那我們的原則是剛剛委員也有不是因為我有請你們回覆給我說有沒有填他有沒有填yes or no第一個還是回到就是說利沖法剛剛委員也有提第14條的那幾項裡面沒有包括投資"},{"start":343.012,"end":361.253,"text":"所以我們認為有有有沒有沒有你的報告寫的委員你可以回去再看一下那個法條那個只有說一般補助承攬採購等我就知道你會這樣子說所以就我們來講的話法務部廉政署在不在"},{"start":363.348,"end":386.455,"text":"110年3月29號的規定而且在你的報告也寫了你的投資是要受到公會員定義關係迴避法的適用他是投資不是補助所以是適用的我記得我們報告是沒有把投資放進去對這是適用的 原證署你的示函110年3月29號連立至1100501810號函"},{"start":395.247,"end":405.209,"text":"因為國發基金的投資他們可能每一個機關有他們自己本身的政策的一個目的跟一個相關的法令的遵循所以對於說有關國發基金的投資是不是屬於這個立法的規範的部分讓我們尊重他們相關機關的一個認定"},{"start":422.455,"end":449.996,"text":"本來你們剛看這個這個都是你們連證書發給各機關的函啊這是喔你最後再好好思考回答一下喔因為你剛剛的報告有講你們的投資國發會的報告也是啊適用喔沒有我們那個報告裡面投資是不會在不會放在那個立沖法第14條裡面所以只要投資都不用放立沖法"},{"start":450.396,"end":475.489,"text":"因為它上面沒有寫啊它只有一般的補助承攬跟採購啊那你就是違反廉政署的含釋解釋請廉政署再回去跟你好好解釋一下這他們的含釋我有去問廉政署我現在講的都不是個案你們都不要跟我扯到個案我現在講的是因為很多人會投資嘛新創事業會去受天使基金的投資所以這些東西都要揭露的"},{"start":476.465,"end":492.306,"text":"你要讓我們這個審查委員知道我們審查委員審案子是要揭露利益關係的啊對不對 我要簽的啊要有那個表的那個委員這一邊再跟你釐清一下就是說這個你再給我報因為你們的現在回函我那時候請你們回都沒有回給我啊"},{"start":493.203,"end":518.312,"text":"因為我5月26號請你是不是依法事前就說你現在有沒有回覆我啊因為這一個我們有去諮詢律師啦律師說這個我們有跟有跟那個你先告訴我你有沒有回給我沒有嘛沒有啊我們我們在沒有律師就是沒有現在沒有三發屬是到今天早上我剛才拿到密件封"},{"start":521.946,"end":550.504,"text":"五月份拿到密件封好不好 廉政署回去再把一些函事再寄給他們 謝謝好 再來回到剛剛這裡喔所以我要的問題都不是個案喔各位都不要跟我講個案我現在不跟你講個案因為就是很多這個東西我們都要遵守一致的規矩那同樣的道理喔你在這一個地方來講的話三發署我剛剛看到你們密件給我的他有沒有填因為你們有那個表格在礦勢智能那裡"},{"start":553.035,"end":571.093,"text":"跟委員報告齁確實在我們立衝法規定之後有些廠商其實是會可能會忘記所以我們在113年6月的時候有那個部裡面這邊齁大概有含知道各行政機關對我說所以他如果沒有填你也不知道"},{"start":573.092,"end":586.913,"text":"我們一般審查是審查會看他的負責人跟計劃執行人員可是那個利害關係的表格是在你們的附件申請裡頭是要通知申請人他要填的啊那他有沒有填"},{"start":589.253,"end":607.418,"text":"剛剛跟委員報告是說我們事實上是在很多的廠商會忘記所以我們有在我們後來113年之後的有在提醒就是應該要填的就是每一個案子不是只有這個案子每一個案子都應該要告訴這些申請人是要填的"},{"start":608.118,"end":631.17,"text":"當然像我們這些投資審查委也都是要填嘛 對不對如果這個東西是有符合利害關係我要迴避的甚至我就不審這一個案子不參與的所以要填的好 為什麼 這規定的這在立法立法規定它可能漏填或幹嘛我也知道你們會用這個理由但是你要補公開就是你要補證公開 不然你會違法"},{"start":632.641,"end":651.358,"text":"違法的話就是第一個 申請者的責任他要事前揭露他在申請補助交易等等要在文件內據實表明身份沙發水真的是補助嘛再來 機關的責任補助交易行為成立後30天內要連同身份關係要上網主動公開"},{"start":653.339,"end":671.565,"text":"你如果沒有揭露或未公開的話廉政署要嘛如果你是申請者的責任就處罰申請人要嘛如果你是機關沒有公開就處罰你機關五萬到十萬並得按次處罰所以所以公務員也要依法行政我是在保護各位喔"},{"start":672.897,"end":701.988,"text":"因為法就寫在這邊 制度就寫在這邊我們就是希望每一個案件都是這樣子來做遵守我覺得這個是對新創者對要投資申請補助的人 他是公平的我也覺得不認同天使基金 國發電的不受利益天愛公協法的規定這個我事後會再跟你們好好的討教這完全是你們覺得不對因為原政署的回函不是這樣子好 再來"},{"start":703.34,"end":725.87,"text":"所以呢你這一個東西呢你們也回給我說建議由法務部確認因為你也不知道嘛那我就請法務部確認這樣子的案子那中企署也是啊中企署的話就是這一個微如科技的話就是一樣每一個案子都要有再來你們共同的缺失是這個"},{"start":728.049,"end":739.937,"text":"就是你要公開揭露 公開揭露的時候請問經濟部有沒有這個公職人員關係人賭注交易等等身份關係公開查詢平台經濟部有沒有國發會有幫你查過了 沒有然後呢 經濟部呢報告委員"},{"start":759.326,"end":768.194,"text":"我們是每一個案子都有公開平台但是有沒有專區這個我要確認我是不是馬上確認以後跟您報告好 我幫你查過了"},{"start":769.775,"end":795.875,"text":"有些有有些沒有那沒有的話就會連到監察院這一個網站就是在監察院那我有去把它查了一下因為你們都沒有國發會尤其沒有總共我去幫你們查了四年來7508件全國機關全部包含中央地方政府我查四年國發會公開的只有一件游建華前副主委子女依法公開關係法公開經濟部發署公開零件"},{"start":800.128,"end":800.981,"text":"這這"},{"start":802.11,"end":830.6,"text":"可能是真的沒有 可能是真的沒有但是因為你們 我剛剛講法寫在那邊 但是你們沒有照制度執行比如說那個人應該要填的 要告知這些審查委員的比如說這個某某人來申請的時候他是有具有什麼樣的利害關係的你這些都要讓他們填 要提醒他們他如果沒有提醒 那就是你們失職事後還要公開 公開要讓他可以查得到的所以監察院才有這一個"},{"start":831.912,"end":847.942,"text":"可是你們都沒有把他上上去啊我不相信很少啊那我也去查了我們很多立委很多地方政府的機關上都有欸 都有填喔像吳興隆我們本黨的前立委"},{"start":849.09,"end":871.711,"text":"他弟弟因為什麼 關西企業承接台灣電力公司 他是星光保全負責 依法揭露甚至我們的楊瓊英委員 因為有些這個 他是昭陽科技大學的董事會的董事 這都有揭露還有很多 我們委員都有揭露 我們委員都很乖耶林佩祥 賴世寶 對不對 他是擔任這個管理協會的理事 都有揭露"},{"start":873.049,"end":881.098,"text":"可是為什麼很多案子是沒有揭露的這就是讓我匪夷所思然後地方政府揭露的還比中央部會多這就是法庭在那個地方你制度要去做絕對不是個案也絕對不是政治什麼追殺什麼案件抹黑 沒有我現在全部都跟你講事實"},{"start":896.121,"end":901.749,"text":"我也不選舉 我也不幹嘛 我就是等著創新事業的投資發展你們兩個機關經濟部跟國發會這是很大的投資項目的金額跟補助那"},{"start":910.191,"end":935.927,"text":"所有的申請流程 所有的審核流程我大概我都清楚那我想我們這個審查是都已經是很遵照規定對不對按照你們這些承辦單位給我們要填的甚至我們知道這些人是跟誰是有利害關係的我們會列入考慮但他不是我們確定他獲選或不獲選的依據獲選或不獲選的依據看這個案子的功能優異性跟未來性"},{"start":936.827,"end":954.463,"text":"但是但是他一定要公開揭露事後機關要揭露所以我的要求很單純就是這些如果廠商沒有依法揭露這個按照立法第18條第3項要處罰5到50萬如果你們再不去做就是處罰機關聯證署"},{"start":959.246,"end":984.875,"text":"要確實去做一下確實做所以第一個我希望廉政署好好進入徹查有沒有哪些該公開而未公開的這個究責是機關還是申請人申請人我們可以請他再補公開因為我覺得這個事情是要揭露的第二個我也要求國發會跟經濟部三個月內完成近五年所有的交易補助跟投資案件的關係人清查"},{"start":985.834,"end":996.049,"text":"天使基金我都有寫利害關係法的迴避利益衝突我們都要填審查文要填申請人不用填這也是匪夷所思"},{"start":999.001,"end":1015.851,"text":"我現在都不是在討論個案記得很多新創事業一直跟我complain因為我的社會資本的連結性不夠以至於我可能申請不到案件的補助或投資有失公平我們要消弭這種不公平的現象"},{"start":1017.012,"end":1033.898,"text":"就這樣子而已其他一點關係都沒有我希望將來各位就依法行事把制度都有 法條都有就是執行率的問題該揭露的就揭露國化會該網站 確診網站 經濟部也是沒有的話你那個連結就擺到這個"},{"start":1037.179,"end":1055.95,"text":"監察院的這個公職員關係平台你就不用自己建也行那申請的時候確實要求他們要填寫有的話就填寫沒有也是在表格上填55555要把這個文件Document下保護各位公務人員以上 謝謝好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:13.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:43:13.691000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:14.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:43:19.113000+08:00","text":"我請國發會、商發署跟中企署。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:20.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:43:20.674000+08:00","text":"請三位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:31.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:43:44.267000+08:00","text":"我想會排這個質詢，是因為經濟部管了很多東西，當然還包含產發，產發不用上臺沒關係。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:44.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:43:51.994000+08:00","text":"基本上來講包含了很多的補助，國發的話，則包含很多的投資，甚至包含我們那時候審的天使基金等等。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:43:53.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:44:18.133000+08:00","text":"會有這個問題的發生，我覺得跟一些委員講的什麼個案政治一點關係都沒有，主要是我長期輔導新創很多年，新創事業中有一堆人跑來跟我檢舉，我當然也不能給你們檢舉信函，我就說，不太可能啊！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:44:18.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:44:30.265000+08:00","text":"我們在審查的時候，基本上都像剛剛兩位相關部會首長講的是合法、合規，然後符合利益關係的利衝法所有的規範。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:44:30.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:44:51.449000+08:00","text":"只是我們去把這個資料找出來之後，發現他就是沒有完全的遵守利益衝突的法案，導致有些新創事業覺得，我能力很強，但是可能社會資本、關係不夠，所以他覺得有點unfair、不公平。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:44:53.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:45:05.961000+08:00","text":"我看了一下，這些公司的能量都很夠，但是申請獲得的補助或者是沒有通過補助，當然這有很多其他因素，我們就覺得這是制度上的問題。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:45:06.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:45:23.974000+08:00","text":"這個案子我們黨團在5月26號、6月9號、6月22號分別都開過記者會，然後來找這樣子的事情，這個事情就很明顯，我就不再贅述。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:45:24.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:45:42.874000+08:00","text":"主要是我那時候也覺得還蠻巧的，如果按照時間軸來看的話，蘇巧純是曠世智能的董事，而且是第二大股東，然後威如科技掌管的服務平臺akaSwap，他是執行長。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:45:44.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:46:13.771000+08:00","text":"如果把這跟利衝法的規範弄起來的話，也就是他的關係人，比如你是機關首長、民意代表，然後他是二親等以內的親屬，按照利衝法第二條及第三條的規定，有關公職人員關係人的規範，他在在都是具體而成立的。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:46:14.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:46:54.338000+08:00","text":"只是很湊巧的是，在2021年他加入曠世智能擔任董事，之後國發基金天使投資、商發署補助這樣一路下來，這些我不能說他違法，因為按照利衝法規定，他的關係人有很厲害的二親等以內親屬，這一種所謂公開、公正、公平的招標都是可以參與的，不能因為他的爸爸、媽媽、姐姐、妹妹、兄弟擔任民意代表或機關首長，就不能參與政府的公共補助平臺，這一點沒有問題。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:46:54.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:47:05.202000+08:00","text":"但是有問題的地方絕對也不是他的案子好或不好，案子好或不好也不是你們認定，也是由審查委員的機制去認定。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:47:05.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:47:26.568000+08:00","text":"現在比較嚴重的問題是，根據利衝法的規定，主要是在第十四條這裡，因為他是屬於符合剛剛的要件，所以在第三款基於法定身分來申請，這個沒有問題。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:47:26.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:47:55.962000+08:00","text":"但是在第二項的部分「前項但書第一款至第三款補助或交易行為前，應主動於申請或投標文件內據實表明其身分關係」，像我擔任各個審查委員，包含以前擔任國發基金天使投資方案，每一個案件審查委員都要寫有沒有利益迴避、有沒有關係或利害衝突，若有，我們就退出審查。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:47:56.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:13.294000+08:00","text":"可是這個部分我想要問，一個、一個來好了，這個是一定要填的，甚至在補助或交易成立之後，該機關要連同其身分關係主動公開之。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:13.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:28.066000+08:00","text":"我想問的是，第一個，國發基金在曠世智能第二大股東、董事是蘇巧純的時候，他有沒有告訴這些審查……他有沒有填利益迴避關係表？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:29.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:35.348000+08:00","text":"在這邊跟委員報告，我們不會針對個案，我們的原則是，剛剛委員也有把利衝法……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:35.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:40.090000+08:00","text":"我有請你們回復給我，他有沒有填，yes or no？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:40.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:48.373000+08:00","text":"第一個，還是回到利衝法，剛剛委員也有提第十四條的那幾項裡面沒有包括投資，所以我們認為……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:48.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:49.714000+08:00","text":"有、有、有、有、有。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:49.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:50.295000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有、沒有。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:50.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:51.797000+08:00","text":"你們報告寫的耶！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:52.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:48:58.004000+08:00","text":"委員，你可以回去再看一下那個法條，只有說一般補助、承攬、採購等，並沒有……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:48:58.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:00.206000+08:00","text":"我就知道你會這樣子說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:01.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:03.770000+08:00","text":"就我們來講的話，投……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:03.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:06.233000+08:00","text":"法務部廉政署的人員在不在？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:08.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:17.551000+08:00","text":"110年3月29號的規定，而且在你們報告也寫了，投資是要受到公職人員利益衝突迴避法限制的，有適用喔！","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:18.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:20.872000+08:00","text":"他是投資，不是補助，所以是適用的喔！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:21.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:24.253000+08:00","text":"我記得我們報告沒有把投資放進去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:28.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:31.435000+08:00","text":"這是適用的，廉政署的函釋，110年3月29日廉利字第11005001810號函。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:31.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:35.841000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關個案的部分，可能在現場我們不方便就個案說明……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:35.841000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:40.247000+08:00","text":"不是個案，我說國發基金的投資案適不適用公職人員利益衝突迴避法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T09:49:40.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:49:50.189000+08:00","text":"因為國發基金的投資，可能每一個機關有他們自己本身的政策目的跟相關法令的遵循，所以對於所有有關國發基金的投資是不是屬於利衝法所規範的部分，我們尊重他們相關機關的認定。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:09.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:15.901000+08:00","text":"這個都是廉政署發給各機關的函，這是喔！","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:16.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:18.283000+08:00","text":"你最後再好好思考並回答一下。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:19.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:24.308000+08:00","text":"你剛剛的報告也講，你們的投資……國發會的報告也是，適用喔！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:24.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:32.754000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們的報告中，投資不會放在利衝法第十四條裡面。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:32.954000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:34.976000+08:00","text":"所以只要是投資都不用放在利衝法？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:35.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:36.817000+08:00","text":"因為上面沒有寫啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:37.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:40.499000+08:00","text":"只有一般的補助、承攬跟採購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:40.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:50:48.082000+08:00","text":"這樣就是違反廉政署的函釋解釋，請廉政署再回去跟你好好解釋一下，這是他們的函釋，我有去問廉政署。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:50:50.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:06.071000+08:00","text":"我現在講的都不是個案，你們都不要給我扯到個案，我現在講的是，因為很多人會投資，新創事業會接受天使基金的投資，所以這些東西都要揭露，他要讓這些審查委員知道，審查委員審案子是要揭露利益關係的，對不對？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:06.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:08.014000+08:00","text":"要簽的、要有那個表的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:09.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:12.360000+08:00","text":"委員，再跟你釐清一下，就是在……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:12.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:18.723000+08:00","text":"這個你再給我報告，因為你們的回函，我那時候請你們回，都沒有回給我啊！因為……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:18.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:23.185000+08:00","text":"我5月26號請你們回復是不是依法事前揭露，你們現在也沒有回復我啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:23.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:27.966000+08:00","text":"因為這個我們有去諮詢律師，律師說……律師……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:27.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:28.587000+08:00","text":"我們有跟……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:29.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:31.728000+08:00","text":"你先告訴我，你們有沒有回給我？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:32.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:33.188000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:34.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:34.749000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:36.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:36.509000+08:00","text":"我們請律師……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:37.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:39.230000+08:00","text":"沒有，就是沒有，現在沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:39.230000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:40.551000+08:00","text":"目前沒有，是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:40.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:48.127000+08:00","text":"商發署是到今天早上，我剛才拿到密件封，5月到現在才拿到密件封。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:49.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:51:52.429000+08:00","text":"廉政署回去再把一些函釋寄給他們，謝謝。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:51:52.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:04.797000+08:00","text":"再來，回到剛剛這裡，所以我問的問題都不是個案，各位都不要跟我講個案，我現在不跟你們講個案，因為很多東西我們都要遵守一致的規矩。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:05.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:12.742000+08:00","text":"同樣的道理，以這個地方來講，我剛剛看到商發署給我的密件，他有沒有填？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:13.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:15.504000+08:00","text":"因為你們有那個表格，在曠世智能那裡。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:18.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:34.031000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，確實在利衝法規定之後，有些廠商可能會忘記，所以在113年6月的時候，部裡面有函知各行政機關，公告說要做提醒。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:34.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:36.073000+08:00","text":"所以他如果沒有填，你們也不知道？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:38.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:42.558000+08:00","text":"我們一般審查是會看他的負責人跟計畫執行人員。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:42.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:49.409000+08:00","text":"可是那個利害關係的表格是在你們的申請附件裡，是通知申請人要填的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:49.409000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:51.292000+08:00","text":"對，跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:51.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:52:51.893000+08:00","text":"他有沒有填？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T09:52:54.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:02.995000+08:00","text":"剛剛跟委員報告的是，事實上很多廠商會忘記，所以我們後來113年之後的有再提醒……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:03.696000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:16.100000+08:00","text":"好，就是應該要填的，不是只有這個案子，每一個案子都應該要告訴這些申請人是要填的，包含這些投資審查委員也都是要填嘛，對不對？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:16.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:23.764000+08:00","text":"如果這個東西有符合利害關係，他要迴避的，甚至他就不審這個案子、不參與了，所以是要填的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:24.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:25.564000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:25.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:36.150000+08:00","text":"這是規定的，這在利衝法有規定，他可能漏填或幹嘛，我也知道你們會用這個理由，但是你們要補公開，就是要補正公開，不然會違法。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:37.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:53:48.331000+08:00","text":"違法的話，第一個是申請者的責任，他要事前揭露，他在申請補助或交易前，要在文件內據實表明身分，商發署是補助嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:53:48.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:12.063000+08:00","text":"再來是機關的責任，補助或交易行為成立後30天內，連同身分關係要上網主動公開，假設沒有揭露或未公開的話，如果是申請者的責任，就處罰申請人；如果是機關沒有公開，就處罰機關5萬到10萬，並得按次處罰。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:12.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:45.907000+08:00","text":"所以公務人員要依法行政，我是在保護各位，因為法就寫在這邊、制度就寫在這邊，我們希望每一個案件都是這樣遵守，我覺得這個對新創者、要投資申請補助的人是公平的，我也不認同國發會天使基金不受利益衝突迴避法的規定，這個我事後會再跟你們好好討教，這完全是你們不對，因為廉政署的回函不是這樣子。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:46.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:55.343000+08:00","text":"再來，這個東西你們也回給我說：建議宜由法務部確認。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:55.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:59.525000+08:00","text":"因為你們也不知道嘛，那我就請法務部確認這樣的案子。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:00.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:07.868000+08:00","text":"中企署也是，中企署對威如科技，一樣，每一個案子都要有。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:09.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:14.350000+08:00","text":"再來，你們共同的缺失是這個，就是你要公開揭露。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:18.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:23.696000+08:00","text":"請問經濟部有沒有「公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺」？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.456000+08:00","text":"國發會我幫你查過了，沒有。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.657000+08:00","text":"經濟部呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"紀處長嘉真","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:51.553000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們是每一個案子都有公開在平臺，但是有沒有專區我要確認，我是不是馬上確認以後跟您報告？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:52.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:58.998000+08:00","text":"好，我幫你查過了，有些有，有些沒有，沒有的話就會連到監察院這個網站。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:01.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:04.362000+08:00","text":"我也去查了一下，因為你們都沒有，國發會尤其沒有。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:05.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:27.910000+08:00","text":"我去幫你們查了，我查4年，全國全部的機關4年來總共7,508件，包含中央、地方政府，國發會公開的只有1件，游建華前副主委的子女依法公開；經濟部商發署公開0件，可能是真的沒有啦！","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:31.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:39.534000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講，法寫在那邊，但是你們沒有照制度執行，比如那個人應該要填、要告知這些審查委員的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:40.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:53.399000+08:00","text":"又比如某某人來申請的時候，是基於什麼樣的利害關係，這些你都要讓他們填，要提醒他們，如果沒有提醒，那就是你們失職，事後還要公開，讓他可以查得到。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:54.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:00.374000+08:00","text":"所以監察院才有這個平臺，可是你們都沒有把它放上去，我不相信很少。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:01.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:12.922000+08:00","text":"我也去查了，我們很多立委、很多地方政府的機關首長都有填，像本黨的前立委吳欣盈，他為什麼填？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:14.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:19.916000+08:00","text":"因為他弟弟是新光保全負責人，其關係企業承接台灣電力公司的採購案，所以依法揭露。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:20.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:33.829000+08:00","text":"甚至楊瓊瓔委員因為是朝陽科技大學董事會的董事，這都有揭露，還有很多，我們委員都有揭露，我們委員都很乖，包含林沛祥、賴士葆，對不對？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:33.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:36.691000+08:00","text":"他是擔任管理協會的理事，也都有揭露。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:38.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:40.772000+08:00","text":"可是為什麼很多案子是沒有揭露的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:41.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:04.125000+08:00","text":"這就讓我匪夷所思，然後地方政府揭露的還比中央部會多，法定在那個地方，你要照制度去做，這絕對不是個案，也絕對不是什麼政治追殺、案件抹黑，沒有，我現在全部都跟你講事實，我也不選舉，我也不幹嘛，我就是本著關心創新事業的投資發展。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:04.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:24.357000+08:00","text":"你們兩個機關──經濟部跟國發會，這是很大的投資項目金額跟補助，所有的申請流程、審核流程我大概都清楚，我想他們在審查的時候都已經很遵照規定，對不對？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:24.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:46.151000+08:00","text":"按照你們這些承辦單位要他們填的來做，甚至在我們知道這些人跟誰有利害關係時，我們會列入考慮，但它不是我們確定他獲選或不獲選的依據，獲選或不獲選要去看這個案子的功能、優異性跟未來性，但是它一定要公開揭露，事後機關要揭露。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:47.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:59.443000+08:00","text":"所以我的要求很單純，如果這些廠商沒有依法揭露，按照利衝法第十八條第三項要處罰5萬到50萬，如果你們再不去做，就是處罰機關。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:59.443000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:04.246000+08:00","text":"廉政署可以喔？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:04.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:07.047000+08:00","text":"要確實去做！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:07.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:13.789000+08:00","text":"所以第一個，我希望廉政署好好介入徹查，有沒有哪些該公開而未公開的？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:14.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:16.010000+08:00","text":"這個是究責機關還是申請人？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:16.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:21.332000+08:00","text":"申請人我們可以請他再補公開，因為我覺得這件事情是要揭露的。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:21.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:29.855000+08:00","text":"第二個，我要求國發會跟經濟部三個月內，完成近五年所有交易、補助跟投資案件的關係人清查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:30.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:41.029000+08:00","text":"天使基金方案都有寫利害關係法的迴避、利益衝突，我們都要填，審查委員要填，但申請人不用填，這也是匪夷所思。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:44.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:58.650000+08:00","text":"我現在不是在討論個案，很多新創事業一直跟我抱怨，因為他們社會資本的連結性不夠，以至於可能申請不到案件的補助或投資，有失公平。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:59.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:04.653000+08:00","text":"我們要消弭這種不公平的現象，就這樣子而已，其他一點關係都沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:04.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:40.350000+08:00","text":"我希望將來各位就依法行事，制度都有、法條都有，就是執行力的問題，該揭露的就揭露，國發會該有網站的就要有網站，經濟部也是，沒有的話，你就連結到監察院的「公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺」，你就不用自己建，也行，申請的時候要確實要求他們填寫，有的話就填寫，他沒有也是要在表格上填「無」嘛，要把這個文件document下來，保護各位公務人員。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員毓祥","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:40.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:40.930000+08:00","text":"以上，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:40.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:40.950000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（洪委員毓祥）","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:41.450000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:44.592857+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":780,"blocks":[["洪委員毓祥：（9時43分）謝謝主席。我請國發會、商發署跟中企署。"],["主席：請三位。"],["洪委員毓祥：我想會排這個質詢，是因為經濟部管了很多東西，當然還包含產發，產發不用上臺沒關係。基本上來講包含了很多的補助，國發的話，則包含很多的投資，甚至包含我們那時候審的天使基金等等。會有這個問題的發生，我覺得跟一些委員講的什麼個案政治一點關係都沒有，主要是我長期輔導新創很多年，新創事業中有一堆人跑來跟我檢舉，我當然也不能給你們檢舉信函，我就說，不太可能啊！我們在審查的時候，基本上都像剛剛兩位相關部會首長講的是合法、合規，然後符合利益關係的利衝法所有的規範。只是我們去把這個資料找出來之後，發現他就是沒有完全的遵守利益衝突的法案，導致有些新創事業覺得，我能力很強，但是可能社會資本、關係不夠，所以他覺得有點unfair、不公平。我看了一下，這些公司的能量都很夠，但是申請獲得的補助或者是沒有通過補助，當然這有很多其他因素，我們就覺得這是制度上的問題。","這個案子我們黨團在5月26號、6月9號、6月22號分別都開過記者會，然後來找這樣子的事情，這個事情就很明顯，我就不再贅述。主要是我那時候也覺得還蠻巧的，如果按照時間軸來看的話，蘇巧純是曠世智能的董事，而且是第二大股東，然後威如科技掌管的服務平臺akaSwap，他是執行長。如果把這跟利衝法的規範弄起來的話，也就是他的關係人，比如你是機關首長、民意代表，然後他是二親等以內的親屬，按照利衝法第二條及第三條的規定，有關公職人員關係人的規範，他在在都是具體而成立的。只是很湊巧的是，在2021年他加入曠世智能擔任董事，之後國發基金天使投資、商發署補助這樣一路下來，這些我不能說他違法，因為按照利衝法規定，他的關係人有很厲害的二親等以內親屬，這一種所謂公開、公正、公平的招標都是可以參與的，不能因為他的爸爸、媽媽、姐姐、妹妹、兄弟擔任民意代表或機關首長，就不能參與政府的公共補助平臺，這一點沒有問題。","但是有問題的地方絕對也不是他的案子好或不好，案子好或不好也不是你們認定，也是由審查委員的機制去認定。現在比較嚴重的問題是，根據利衝法的規定，主要是在第十四條這裡，因為他是屬於符合剛剛的要件，所以在第三款基於法定身分來申請，這個沒有問題。但是在第二項的部分「前項但書第一款至第三款補助或交易行為前，應主動於申請或投標文件內據實表明其身分關係」，像我擔任各個審查委員，包含以前擔任國發基金天使投資方案，每一個案件審查委員都要寫有沒有利益迴避、有沒有關係或利害衝突，若有，我們就退出審查。可是這個部分我想要問，一個、一個來好了，這個是一定要填的，甚至在補助或交易成立之後，該機關要連同其身分關係主動公開之。","我想問的是，第一個，國發基金在曠世智能第二大股東、董事是蘇巧純的時候，他有沒有告訴這些審查……他有沒有填利益迴避關係表？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：在這邊跟委員報告，我們不會針對個案，我們的原則是，剛剛委員也有把利衝法……"],["洪委員毓祥：我有請你們回復給我，他有沒有填，yes or no？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，還是回到利衝法，剛剛委員也有提第十四條的那幾項裡面沒有包括投資，所以我們認為……"],["洪委員毓祥：有、有、有、有、有。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，沒有、沒有。"],["洪委員毓祥：你們報告寫的耶！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，你可以回去再看一下那個法條，只有說一般補助、承攬、採購等，並沒有……"],["洪委員毓祥：我就知道你會這樣子說。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：就我們來講的話，投……"],["洪委員毓祥：法務部廉政署的人員在不在？110年3月29號的規定，而且在你們報告也寫了，投資是要受到公職人員利益衝突迴避法限制的，有適用喔！他是投資，不是補助，所以是適用的喔！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我記得我們報告沒有把投資放進去。"],["洪委員毓祥：這是適用的，廉政署的函釋，110年3月29日廉利字第11005001810號函。"],["林副署長炤宏：跟委員報告，有關個案的部分，可能在現場我們不方便就個案說明……"],["洪委員毓祥：不是個案，我說國發基金的投資案適不適用公職人員利益衝突迴避法。"],["林副署長炤宏：因為國發基金的投資，可能每一個機關有他們自己本身的政策目的跟相關法令的遵循，所以對於所有有關國發基金的投資是不是屬於利衝法所規範的部分，我們尊重他們相關機關的認定。"],["洪委員毓祥：這個都是廉政署發給各機關的函，這是喔！你最後再好好思考並回答一下。你剛剛的報告也講，你們的投資……國發會的報告也是，適用喔！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，我們的報告中，投資不會放在利衝法第十四條裡面。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以只要是投資都不用放在利衝法？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為上面沒有寫啊！只有一般的補助、承攬跟採購。"],["洪委員毓祥：這樣就是違反廉政署的函釋解釋，請廉政署再回去跟你好好解釋一下，這是他們的函釋，我有去問廉政署。我現在講的都不是個案，你們都不要給我扯到個案，我現在講的是，因為很多人會投資，新創事業會接受天使基金的投資，所以這些東西都要揭露，他要讓這些審查委員知道，審查委員審案子是要揭露利益關係的，對不對？要簽的、要有那個表的。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，再跟你釐清一下，就是在……"],["洪委員毓祥：這個你再給我報告，因為你們的回函，我那時候請你們回，都沒有回給我啊！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為……"],["洪委員毓祥：我5月26號請你們回復是不是依法事前揭露，你們現在也沒有回復我啊！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：因為這個我們有去諮詢律師，律師說……"],["洪委員毓祥：律師……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們有跟……"],["洪委員毓祥：你先告訴我，你們有沒有回給我？沒有嘛！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對。"],["洪委員毓祥：沒有啊！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們請律師……"],["洪委員毓祥：沒有，就是沒有，現在沒有。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：目前沒有，是。"],["洪委員毓祥：商發署是到今天早上，我剛才拿到密件封，5月到現在才拿到密件封。廉政署回去再把一些函釋寄給他們，謝謝。"],["林副署長炤宏：是。"],["洪委員毓祥：再來，回到剛剛這裡，所以我問的問題都不是個案，各位都不要跟我講個案，我現在不跟你們講個案，因為很多東西我們都要遵守一致的規矩。同樣的道理，以這個地方來講，我剛剛看到商發署給我的密件，他有沒有填？因為你們有那個表格，在曠世智能那裡。"],["蘇署長文玲：跟委員報告，確實在利衝法規定之後，有些廠商可能會忘記，所以在113年6月的時候，部裡面有函知各行政機關，公告說要做提醒。"],["洪委員毓祥：所以他如果沒有填，你們也不知道？"],["蘇署長文玲：我們一般審查是會看他的負責人跟計畫執行人員。"],["洪委員毓祥：可是那個利害關係的表格是在你們的申請附件裡，是通知申請人要填的。"],["蘇署長文玲：對，跟委員報告……"],["洪委員毓祥：他有沒有填？"],["蘇署長文玲：剛剛跟委員報告的是，事實上很多廠商會忘記，所以我們後來113年之後的有再提醒……"],["洪委員毓祥：好，就是應該要填的，不是只有這個案子，每一個案子都應該要告訴這些申請人是要填的，包含這些投資審查委員也都是要填嘛，對不對？如果這個東西有符合利害關係，他要迴避的，甚至他就不審這個案子、不參與了，所以是要填的。為什麼？這是規定的，這在利衝法有規定，他可能漏填或幹嘛，我也知道你們會用這個理由，但是你們要補公開，就是要補正公開，不然會違法。違法的話，第一個是申請者的責任，他要事前揭露，他在申請補助或交易前，要在文件內據實表明身分，商發署是補助嘛！再來是機關的責任，補助或交易行為成立後30天內，連同身分關係要上網主動公開，假設沒有揭露或未公開的話，如果是申請者的責任，就處罰申請人；如果是機關沒有公開，就處罰機關5萬到10萬，並得按次處罰。","所以公務人員要依法行政，我是在保護各位，因為法就寫在這邊、制度就寫在這邊，我們希望每一個案件都是這樣遵守，我覺得這個對新創者、要投資申請補助的人是公平的，我也不認同國發會天使基金不受利益衝突迴避法的規定，這個我事後會再跟你們好好討教，這完全是你們不對，因為廉政署的回函不是這樣子。再來，這個東西你們也回給我說：建議宜由法務部確認。因為你們也不知道嘛，那我就請法務部確認這樣的案子。中企署也是，中企署對威如科技，一樣，每一個案子都要有。再來，你們共同的缺失是這個，就是你要公開揭露。請問經濟部有沒有「公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺」？國發會我幫你查過了，沒有。經濟部呢？"],["紀處長嘉真：報告委員，我們是每一個案子都有公開在平臺，但是有沒有專區我要確認，我是不是馬上確認以後跟您報告？"],["洪委員毓祥：好，我幫你查過了，有些有，有些沒有，沒有的話就會連到監察院這個網站。我也去查了一下，因為你們都沒有，國發會尤其沒有。我去幫你們查了，我查4年，全國全部的機關4年來總共7,508件，包含中央、地方政府，國發會公開的只有1件，游建華前副主委的子女依法公開；經濟部商發署公開0件，可能是真的沒有啦！我剛剛講，法寫在那邊，但是你們沒有照制度執行，比如那個人應該要填、要告知這些審查委員的。又比如某某人來申請的時候，是基於什麼樣的利害關係，這些你都要讓他們填，要提醒他們，如果沒有提醒，那就是你們失職，事後還要公開，讓他可以查得到。所以監察院才有這個平臺，可是你們都沒有把它放上去，我不相信很少。","我也去查了，我們很多立委、很多地方政府的機關首長都有填，像本黨的前立委吳欣盈，他為什麼填？因為他弟弟是新光保全負責人，其關係企業承接台灣電力公司的採購案，所以依法揭露。甚至楊瓊瓔委員因為是朝陽科技大學董事會的董事，這都有揭露，還有很多，我們委員都有揭露，我們委員都很乖，包含林沛祥、賴士葆，對不對？他是擔任管理協會的理事，也都有揭露。可是為什麼很多案子是沒有揭露的？這就讓我匪夷所思，然後地方政府揭露的還比中央部會多，法定在那個地方，你要照制度去做，這絕對不是個案，也絕對不是什麼政治追殺、案件抹黑，沒有，我現在全部都跟你講事實，我也不選舉，我也不幹嘛，我就是本著關心創新事業的投資發展。你們兩個機關──經濟部跟國發會，這是很大的投資項目金額跟補助，所有的申請流程、審核流程我大概都清楚，我想他們在審查的時候都已經很遵照規定，對不對？按照你們這些承辦單位要他們填的來做，甚至在我們知道這些人跟誰有利害關係時，我們會列入考慮，但它不是我們確定他獲選或不獲選的依據，獲選或不獲選要去看這個案子的功能、優異性跟未來性，但是它一定要公開揭露，事後機關要揭露。所以我的要求很單純，如果這些廠商沒有依法揭露，按照利衝法第十八條第三項要處罰5萬到50萬，如果你們再不去做，就是處罰機關。廉政署可以喔？要確實去做！","所以第一個，我希望廉政署好好介入徹查，有沒有哪些該公開而未公開的？這個是究責機關還是申請人？申請人我們可以請他再補公開，因為我覺得這件事情是要揭露的。第二個，我要求國發會跟經濟部三個月內，完成近五年所有交易、補助跟投資案件的關係人清查。天使基金方案都有寫利害關係法的迴避、利益衝突，我們都要填，審查委員要填，但申請人不用填，這也是匪夷所思。我現在不是在討論個案，很多新創事業一直跟我抱怨，因為他們社會資本的連結性不夠，以至於可能申請不到案件的補助或投資，有失公平。我們要消弭這種不公平的現象，就這樣子而已，其他一點關係都沒有。","我希望將來各位就依法行事，制度都有、法條都有，就是執行力的問題，該揭露的就揭露，國發會該有網站的就要有網站，經濟部也是，沒有的話，你就連結到監察院的「公職人員及關係人補助交易身分關係公開及查詢平臺」，你就不用自己建，也行，申請的時候要確實要求他們填寫，有的話就填寫，他沒有也是要在表格上填「無」嘛，要把這個文件document下來，保護各位公務人員。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["主席（洪委員毓祥）：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}