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分法》第16條之一及第38條之二的條文修正案以上個案均為院會禁付二讀案現在交付我們財政委員會由我來擔任召委來做協商先介紹在場委員"},{"start":1989.043,"end":2011.109,"text":"首先介紹鍾嘉斌委員 謝謝林佩祥委員陳怡貞委員李坤澄委員 謝謝陳培宇委員 謝謝黃珊珊委員 OK那我們現在就進行協商"},{"start":2012.801,"end":2034.852,"text":"我們信那個列席官員 我們財政部我們莊翠園部長 歡迎部長國庫署陳柏成署長 歡迎還有我們行政院主席總署公務預算處邱碧珠 邱專門委員好 那我們現在就開始協商好不好那我們就坐在下面協商我想好不好 我們就不用坐要坐在下面嗎 還是這樣"},{"start":2036.583,"end":2044.077,"text":"主席我建議說請財政部座長比較近比較好講話如果主席不排斥也可以坐在這裡我們要下去嗎好下去好了 謝謝"},{"start":2064.346,"end":2065.446,"text":"來,就這樣來,就這樣"},{"start":2095.696,"end":2105.002,"text":"好那我們就依序先請提案的委員來做這個意見的發表好不好先請陳醫生委員做提案提案的說明"},{"start":2107.324,"end":2129.952,"text":"謝謝召委部長 署長還有各黨團的代表這一次的提案不管是本席所提的或是陳雪生委員或是黨團所提的當然還包括楊耀委員我們民進黨楊耀委員也是提案人因為主要這次提的這一條16條之一都是有關離島的部分"},{"start":2133.686,"end":2148.552,"text":"那離島部分我想在當初我們在主修採訪的時候這意思已經很清楚了當然不可能其他各縣市離島區跟他一起來這樣計算所以那時候事實上在後面解釋是可以看得出來我們的意思是離島來按照分配的保障的金額裡頭離島三個縣市按照自己的這個三個離島之間的比例來決定怎麼來分配這個統籌分配稅款"},{"start":2159.01,"end":2175.15,"text":"當然那時候秀的時候 產部也沒有說這樣是跟原來上一條是有好像不容易解釋實際上用解釋也可以解釋得出來從上下文 因為立法有時候每個字都寫到這樣的但是事實上從上下文也知道它的本意是什麼立法的原由是什麼"},{"start":2175.791,"end":2192.978,"text":"那既然說國土事件現在覺得有疑慮工人要依法行政一定要每個字都寫得很清楚的話那我們就來把它修正到每個字都把它寫進去那這樣就不會有任何的爭議那當然我們也有看到民進黨團有提出什麼離島的那些錢分配不了離島的那些錢"},{"start":2193.658,"end":2204.84,"text":"去做其他的社福包括坐月子什麼老人什麼國民年金還是什麼勞保什麼的我覺得民進黨提的這些社會福利都相當的好我也是也相當支持但是不要從離島人身上去刮這個肉來這樣這樣已經算是劫貧濟富你抓偏遠地區的人的錢來去做全國的這種分配這樣是劫貧濟富這些很好的"},{"start":2220.123,"end":2239.001,"text":"包括作業值的補助或是其他各項補助我們就另外再編列預算讓中央把它當作一個正式的社會福利來做這個我也支持原來屬於統籌分配稅款因為統籌分配稅款它的目的的來源不是在做什麼社福的分配是做各個地方的各項的建設分下去的時候各地方來做"},{"start":2241.184,"end":2262.743,"text":"這個還不是一般性補償跟計劃型補助款民進黨所提的那些補助作業是什麼我本席也是很支持但那些是一般性補償或你做計劃型補助款就像以前我在未還委員會擔任召委的時候提出這個不印證的相關補助這個是另外一件事當然也可以齊頭並進我們也支持那這個我們就讓它回歸到原來統籌分配稅款它的本意它的這個運用的目的為何我們來做"},{"start":2263.504,"end":2288.197,"text":"那三個 這裡有三個版本包括本席所主題的陳雪生跟陳毓森有提的楊耀有提的然後再加上國民黨黨團有提的我大概仔細看了一下我們 我是建議說財政部現在就站在你們專業立場就是說 來 這些檔案這些版本如何綜合起來是最有利就是最你們可以執行的啦不要說到時候又說這裡不清楚 那裡不清楚我們就在這一次把它討論清楚以上 謝謝好 謝謝陳醫師 沐委員"},{"start":2291.498,"end":2312.962,"text":"另外那個陳雪生委員還沒到陳雪生委員還有楊耀委員還有等27人的提案其實跟陳玉珍委員的都類似很類似就應該是完全是應該是意思完全一樣雪生還沒來我們現在就請那個國民黨團38條至2"},{"start":2322.91,"end":2325.133,"text":"還有38條之外 那私刑日期的問題啦提一下好不好 那個 沛翔講一下請 還是預證來講"},{"start":2343.922,"end":2363.73,"text":"原來的38條是說這個事情由行政院命令定制的因為我們看到我們在修財化法的時候第30條那個部分就是一般性補助款這些不能低於前一個年度但是我們後來發現在財政部不要說財政部行政院讓它一拖再拖的情況下這個前一個年度就會變得好像已經不一樣現在已經2025了本來我們2024的時候是不能低2023的年度的補助款"},{"start":2370.052,"end":2394.394,"text":"那時候 你們在2024就把它剪下來那2025不能遞2024等於整個都被剪下來玩這種數學遊戲我們是看得懂好像為什麼各地有在地方中也在反映說財化法修以後為什麼變得更少呢統籌分配款變多如果照我們原來修法的本意一般性不算跟計劃性不算它是不能減的必須不能少於2023年分配下去的延益因為我們那時候學的不能少於前一個年度30條那個"},{"start":2396.736,"end":2416.654,"text":"那個執政黨他就把2025再來2024的時候撥下變低然後說現在2025才要實施不能少於2024而且我們還沒有寫各縣市那一條我們到時候也會修清楚而且我們也要提出一般性補助款的法制化那這一條的本意就是38條提出的本意就是說如果因為我們這樣修正以後如果用行政院以"},{"start":2417.535,"end":2433.123,"text":"命令定之那很快的連江縣金門縣澎湖縣這些離島縣市很快就會遇到因為你們就會說那現在修過那等到行政命令到時候行政又不發布不弄命令總統發布以後他又不弄一些細節又不弄出來的話"},{"start":2434.369,"end":2440.932,"text":"那時候這些縣市馬上遇到財政很大的衝擊所以國民黨團才會明定寫書說什麼時候然後溯及104年3月21號這種理論上是不會提的"},{"start":2449.617,"end":2468.375,"text":"法條啦是因為行政院做出了這樣一種很tricky就是從中這樣上下其手才讓我們不得已只好把它明定化讓你們沒有再上下其手的空間真不好意思照說這種東西以前的話法律規定就往下做了現在政府還會說把它拖了拖了再改然後改內容再改這個所以造成"},{"start":2469.176,"end":2491.624,"text":"為什麼現在 然後再給錯誤百姓錯誤的各縣市錯誤的資訊說修了以後反而更慘這裡更少 那裡更少其實他們就是玩數字遊戲外面的老百姓也看不清楚我們在財政委員會我本身是早有看得很清楚所以我們要防止既然你們會我們修了這一條你們改那一條我們就全部全部修這個是這一條提出的本意大家理解修法的用意講得很清楚了現在請銀行長先發言老師"},{"start":2500.191,"end":2528.15,"text":"財政部要聽所有委員的意見完畢之後才來才表示意見好不好好不好這邊好不好是是你先對你先對這把你要先聽財政部的意見財政部剛才跟我講說大家表示意見完畢他再來做一個回答那民眾黨民眾黨黃山委員對這個提案請表達你的看法"},{"start":2529.915,"end":2547.568,"text":"我想這個現在是因為財政部把這些計算的方式可能就是對於我們原來立法的意志有一些誤解所以變成其實它是可以從本身就可以解釋的方式但必須變成我們要來做修法這是有點"},{"start":2548.628,"end":2569.427,"text":"好啦 既然要清楚就清楚吧那當然我們沒有要把離島特別故意去讓離島分不到我想這個是立法院的願意所以大概這個修正我們沒有特別的意見那我也覺得說《財化法》的修正還是一個最上位的問題也就是財政部一直不願意面對 那現在"},{"start":2570.508,"end":2582.722,"text":"已經兵臨城下然後自己現在才說要年底提版本我覺得還是一樣如果他們在年底提版本我們不希望再產生一次這麼大的衝突而是你要提什麼版本現在就應該來跟各黨團來做說明"},{"start":2585.565,"end":2613.44,"text":"今天只是這個公式的修正但是如果你行政院真的要對裁判法有自己的立場有更多的變動我覺得不應該再拖到什麼法案送年底年底前都不溝通現在坐在這裡也不溝通等到最後再拿版本出來到時候又是另外一種衝突我覺得真的沒有必要一年多前我們就希望看到行政院的立場到今天還是沒看到行政院的立場"},{"start":2614.585,"end":2636.53,"text":"好 謝謝所以民眾黨基本上對這兩個提案是沒有意見既然他們行政院沒立場就只好是我們的立場好 OK學生委員你有提案現在請陳院生委員對提案來做說明一下我們召委還有各位委員 部長 署長主要這一次五個分子的問題弄得我們連江縣馬祖"},{"start":2643.902,"end":2668.73,"text":"不但沒增加反而少了1000萬當然莊部長從善如流1000萬也補給我們了問題也只是打平打平以後後續的問題還更多現在很多一般補助款還有計畫型的一些補助款我們要繳50%要配合款50%這問題更大所以你現在即使給我的20幾億我去掉原來7億7"},{"start":2674.873,"end":2694.058,"text":"剩下的錢去預祝一般補助款還不夠所以這一次雖然我們聯鄉縣分得最少但是沒辦法因為財化法那時候很衝突的送出來了那麼我們也不要講誰對誰錯啦衍生出來了分子分母的問題"},{"start":2695.783,"end":2721.798,"text":"金門分的比較多澎湖第二澎湖分七十幾億很像我們就一點點不過我預算變不下去啦所以我有忍痛啊所以提出這個版本來這個版本我也跟部長啊部長很忙啊我昨天有打電話給你前天你沒回來我在想說禮拜天不好意思打擾你"},{"start":2729.72,"end":2733.643,"text":"今天楊耀維沒來我們金馬鵬現在剩下的還有300多億300多億這裡面金馬鵬的離島有2.5%的保障"},{"start":2750.708,"end":2779.75,"text":"我拜託財政部也好還有我們民進黨 民眾黨的同仁這裡面不是關我們國民黨的問題也有民進黨的問題所以這個案子我們協商能夠通過能夠讓我們把預算先編成 好不好 謝謝還有很重要一點就是還有因為你現在通過因為有四個月的問題所以我在法條裡面特別強調一個四個月以內"},{"start":2781.135,"end":2807.115,"text":"我們都也還算啦就回到從前嘛 是不是所以我也聽執政黨委員講說三百多億拿去做什麼用 做什麼用但這個已經三讀通過保障的東西啊你如果要用就把兩百二十億扣掉 還剩一百多億那其他縣市的我沒意見啦所以拜託各位大佬 前輩先去成全好不好我們民進黨的誰 中大人"},{"start":2810.157,"end":2822.107,"text":"還有陳大仁 李大仁 拜託你們手下留情 好不好好 謝謝陳委員那個嘉賓 那你們這邊就暫時先等財政部的意見的時候才表示意見 還是要現在是不是這樣還是現在"},{"start":2825.202,"end":2829.343,"text":"好 OK 那請部長先就這個提案做說明謝謝 謝謝昭緯以及各位委員剛剛的提示意見我想這一次的新版財化法在非常倉促的情況下通過都沒有經過相關的一個條文等等做實質討論之後財政部也分別就這次的問題都提出來包含垂直分配的問題也就是說財權去做了分配但市權沒有做分配 同時"},{"start":2852.167,"end":2861.614,"text":"擴大了中央統籌分配稅款同時要求一般性補助款不能減少這個事實上是在財政的分配上是造成了一個相當大的影響我想這在垂直分配另外水平分配的問題我們也了解到有不符條紀財政營需的原則而且擴大了城鄉的差距在這一次非常明顯的看出來因為把營業額零益利事業的營業額以及人口的指標合計加"},{"start":2879.967,"end":2885.292,"text":"加起來達到75%台北市光是盈利市的營業額所能獲配的金額比去年全年比114年可獲配的總金額都還要來得高所以這個造成城鄉的差距那另外就是分配公市的一個分母的錯誤我想剛剛陳委員已經講得很清楚"},{"start":2901.827,"end":2922.602,"text":"在這個離島這個部分尤其是馬祖連江縣受到的影響很大這是一個分母分配的錯誤以及分配公式的不明確包括怎麼樣的序位分法等等但是在這樣的一個法制之下財政部還有主動就是在這樣法制之下依照法律去做了分配但是因為法律這樣的一個規定所以連江縣他感覺他只能拿到了跟114年相同"},{"start":2928.326,"end":2942.294,"text":"那我們今天要講就是說整個財化法這個問題不是今天只修一個分配公司的分母就可以解決我們認為財化法還是要回到它的基本的一個精神它必須要能夠均衡城鄉 均衡台灣而且能夠真正達到調劑財政營運均衡區域發展"},{"start":2948.257,"end":2954.782,"text":"因此在院版這個部分我們也一直在討論而且在年底之前我們就會提出來我們希望提出來的財化法是一個可長可久的能夠真正達到財化法基本的精神讓整個台灣能夠均衡的發展然後能夠讓到需要財源的部分能夠讓它有保障的財源能夠發展"},{"start":2970.795,"end":2974.998,"text":"這個就是我們最主要會在年底之前會提出願版是一個可長可久而且能夠均衡台灣跟均衡城鄉的一個整體的一個修法的一個草案這以上那如果光修正一個分配的公式然後修正分母的話是沒有辦法解決問題這以上行政部門的說明好"},{"start":2995.564,"end":3017.223,"text":"是 那個部長講的每一句我都很反駁但是讓民進黨講是啦 部長的立場表達也很清楚了就是 要提出願板嘛所以從去年說到今年要等到願板出來再來這個做最後的一個你們的想法才會出來嘛沒有 沒有 他現在的意思是這樣我覺得很好好 那我覺得很好 你的想法你支持 OK來 現在請民進黨來"},{"start":3022.438,"end":3050.988,"text":"首先我們在先程序後實體不過在一開始先強調我們對於中央跟地方的財政分配尤其是地方在水平分配上不應該有離島跟本島而有所差異而且我們覺得不分離島本島都應該公平的對待這個我們絕對支持所以對於三個版本16條之一的三個版本包括國民黨黨團還有陳學生陳玉珍委員稱得上雙層版本"},{"start":3051.628,"end":3068.138,"text":"還有第三個是四個人的版本就是三黨共體版本我們都認為這樣的精神應該予以落實先要先聲明的那接下來呢我從程序上來做說明首先我們今天是根據立法院執行法第70條那麼由我們這個國民黨的這個林昭偉來召集"},{"start":3075.562,"end":3090.229,"text":"照說這樣的一個黨團協商其實不應該只是由財政委員會來派源我覺得應該院裡面應該有人來出席才對所以我這邊跟主席表達說如果今天只有財政委員會的"},{"start":3093.069,"end":3118.583,"text":"官员来可能是不够的那为什么呢为什么要提这个呢你看看我手上这一本立法委员手册是谁印的这是法治局印的法治局印的这本手册在113年的1月经历了去年我们包括立法院职权刑事法包括了我们的财政收支划分法都经历了很大幅度的修改所以我在上个月拿到了法治局印的这一本叫做"},{"start":3119.505,"end":3125.667,"text":"增補資料 就增補資料一看只有地質法 立法院職權刑事法"},{"start":3126.944,"end":3152.314,"text":"連我們目前在討論的所謂的我們的財政收支劃分法最新版本現在在使用的版本我們要修改的版本裡面複資缺乳所以我對第一個我是覺得在程序上我們手邊的法令法制作業有嚴重的不足怎麼可能對立法委員我們去年修改的這麼重要的法令郁真讓我講一下我現在在講立法院的事情就是說"},{"start":3153.234,"end":3181.759,"text":"今天財政委員會為主體那法治局置身事外法治局有人在場嗎沒有啊沒有人在場啊那法治局訂的這個徵補的手冊在哪裡在很遠很遠那他在那邊很遠我們都覺得我這樣講我對法治局的一個不滿希望他能夠傳遞上去給我們院長知道這個徵補手冊指徵補立法院職權行使法難道法治局不認為財政收支劃分法是我們立法委員很重要的法令嗎"},{"start":3182.719,"end":3211.512,"text":"我們有列在手冊裡面但是我們修改之後它的增補完全沒有放為什麼我提這個好像是在吹毛求疵不是 因為我需要看到說我們現在在討論的才化法結果我找不到最新的版本然後主席我們目前三個版本的對照表三個版本的對照表其實也應該提供因為委員會審查的時候有提供這個時候協商的時候要提供"},{"start":3213.267,"end":3228.855,"text":"要來提供這是程序上的問題因為我們今天這個事關重要所以我特別把程序上的問題拿出來好那接下來我才能進入實體來講因為如果大家手頭上沒有完整的法令那就我要來說明的情況就有困難我們先看雙層版"},{"start":3230.456,"end":3245.969,"text":"因為沒有做沒有手上邊有給我們一個條文對照表所以雙層板它的差別是什麼呢雙層板它就直接將去年財化法修法的缺漏它那個分母的它把它修正了這就是雙層板陳委員兩位陳委員雙層板是這樣子但是雙層板的內容"},{"start":3251.013,"end":3267.834,"text":"他沒有處理到說因為我們根據這十六條之一的第四項他必須在四個月前通知各該直轄市及鄉政府好鄉市政府來那換言之今天如果談論雙城板就算是把分母的錯誤更正了"},{"start":3268.695,"end":3281.854,"text":"它的效力是往后年不是明年为什么因为四个月前明年度的是四个月前对不对那现在我们修法呢这个对于明年度的已经没办法改变了"},{"start":3282.797,"end":3304.326,"text":"我們現在修法已經被他改變了所以四個月前的這個條文在雙層版裡面是沒有去處理的所以以至於縱使我們今天把16條之一的分母更正那麼只能往後對於明年在籌編後年的預算的時候才能夠把這樣的一個錯誤給更正我想主席很清楚我在講什麼因為沒有條文對照表我想這是雙層版"},{"start":3305.68,"end":3315.807,"text":"但是現在我們看到這個各檔版各檔版的時候它就開始加了它在第四項的部分本來是寫"},{"start":3318.306,"end":3339.753,"text":"沒有我想這個是四個人的版本四個人版本是在第二個版本第二個版本他有說他說前段之規定因修法而造成情勢變更則不受會計年度開始四個月前通知各該直轄市縣市及鄉鎮市政府之限制有做了一個補充了所以呢"},{"start":3340.919,"end":3362.07,"text":"各檔板我現在先講雙層板沒有處理到我們必須到後年度才能試用但是現在各檔板是有加了一個後段這個在第四項的後段跟第四項的前段它做了一個算是一個補充的說明"},{"start":3363.01,"end":3370.301,"text":"那老實說 我還是要老實說就立法體力上其實這樣的更動方式其實還是會造成說"},{"start":3373.297,"end":3398.627,"text":"這一個第四項的後段它只適用這一次的修法它純粹是因為上次的修法的缺漏造成說我們必須把第四項的前項前段排除而不受它影響我想我先做一個條文的比照 版本比照好 現在大家看我們國民黨黨團的版本它這裡面又進化了它這裡面其實它只做"},{"start":3401.757,"end":3423.233,"text":"16條之一 第三項的第幾款第六款 第六目他第幾款 第二款嗎第三款 第三款第六目他把上面說以上五目所稱之全部直轄市及縣市均應排除非離島進行計算"},{"start":3425.885,"end":3451.001,"text":"那麼均應排除非離島進行計算那這樣的做法呢他就不用在每一個條目上去做離島跟非離島的加注所以從立法的技術上他的修正技術可能更簡潔有力但是他有沒有去處理四個月或第四項的四個月或第五項的三個月的問題沒有他直接放在第38條之二"},{"start":3451.721,"end":3473.79,"text":"他直接从施行日期去处理他的施行日期的第二项说明什么呢他的意思说就是指这一条16条之一的最新修正呢他回溯到今年的3月21日起生效也就是原来我们现在手头上用的这个才化法生效的那一天起他回溯去生效所以我们发现是一个什么问题呢"},{"start":3474.37,"end":3502.566,"text":"我之所以花了這麼多的篇幅跟唇舌除了紙齋我們秘書作業的不足沒有把條文對照表跟我們最新的法規修增補給大家給各位看造成我在解說上的一個困難之外我努力的把這三個版本說明它怎麼修的雙層版修了分母可是沒有對於明年度的預算因為來不及在今年度四個月前提出那明年怎麼辦"},{"start":3503.715,"end":3522.985,"text":"沒有解方各黨版 跨黨版它有解決這個問題它解決的方式是直接在第四項當中的後半它直接加上說這次的修法就不受到前段的限制這個從立法技術上它是一次性的條文設計這樣的條文設計會造成我們整個"},{"start":3525.994,"end":3540.63,"text":"財政收支劃分法它在整個表達上的體力居然有一個我不敢說是盲腸啦但是只用一次只用一次那至於國民黨的黨團版呢它更簡潔了它在那個第六幕後面呢增加了這樣的一個"},{"start":3542.348,"end":3561.897,"text":"更正之后解决了分母错误的问题但是他同样的在第38条之二他弄了一个第二项那第二项也只是解决这次修法发生的问题那为什么我这样的一个不嫌累赘的跟大家说明呢就说明一个事实"},{"start":3562.83,"end":3590.446,"text":"一個財政收支劃分法在去年的倉促的一個修正當中不管各黨他所堅持的原則方向如何但是最後他出來的結果就是剛剛財政部長所說的就是有些缺失就是沒有周延簡單就不夠周延那不夠周延的結果我們要用三種版本來修正所以我今天是一個很誠懇的呼籲也是對財政部對行政院提出呼籲"},{"start":3591.767,"end":3607.886,"text":"應該要一個完整的配套版本出來才不會讓我們這樣子挖東牆補西牆顧了前面顧不了後面事實上我們黨團過去對於行政院過去沒有辦法提出財政修正化分法全套的一個"},{"start":3608.666,"end":3631.073,"text":"更新版來呼應在野黨的呼求我們是覺得在職責上是有所欠缺因為行政部門應該因應著我們立法院尤其是朝野各黨尤其是在野黨是國會最大多數應該是要盡責的把我們國會提出的各種方案要有個彙整"},{"start":3632.305,"end":3652.252,"text":"行政院財政部沒有提出我們認為已經是非常的不足了現在有沒有補救之道現在我們聽到補救之道是說葛奎在總諮詢的時候有回應說是要在12月底之前提出我們黨團也認為越快越好甚至我們希望說在11月要提出"},{"start":3653.089,"end":3670.238,"text":"因為如果11月因為我們這是預算會期我們這是預算會期那照說預算會期是以總預算的審議為主但是我們這裡在座各位我們心知肚明今年我們要審明年度的總預算困難度比去年審今年度還要大為什麼"},{"start":3670.919,"end":3684.494,"text":"因為財政收支發放法這個問題不解決我們對於明年的總預算怎麼去支用 怎麼去分配一定很難達成共識所以我們今年的總預今年對於明年度總預算的審查"},{"start":3685.612,"end":3707.615,"text":"不得不要回到財政收支劃分我們是不是能夠有個行政院版統合我們各黨團各委員的主張有一個大家折衷妥協後的共識版本如果沒有那個版本通過我們後續的明年度的預算審查很難滿足大家個別的需求"},{"start":3708.171,"end":3723.672,"text":"因為這裡面會有很多數字的調整難不成我們總預算擱在那裡然後我們才好通過然後才好通過之後我們還要回去看總預算是不是因為這樣的調整空間之後各地方政府有增加出來的備份配款"},{"start":3724.233,"end":3746.804,"text":"他們也要進行他們明年度的預算審查那我們中央也要開始財政部要重新提出讓我們把這個預算調整才能送出去所以我認為如果行政院等到12月才提出院版的財化法的完整的配套的修正我覺得太遲了這會嚴重的影響到我們本院對於中央政府明年度總預算的審查的一個基礎"},{"start":3747.602,"end":3772.584,"text":"所以我在這裡是很誠懇的呼籲我們各黨的代表各黨的代表我們是不是說要求財政部趕快將行政院版的財政收購方法的一個草案 完整草案是你們諮商過各地方財政局處他們的意見也代表著各地方縣市首長他們對於中央在財政上的挹注的需求把這樣的版本提出來"},{"start":3773.405,"end":3801.409,"text":"不然的話我們今天解決了16條之一不管採用哪個版本它在立法的體力上它都沒有辦法很完整的去處理只處理到哪裡只處理到我們離島這三個縣所因為分母錯誤所造成的缺漏其實我這裡最後一點我要建議跟學貞兄還有跟郁貞兄還有國民黨團提出來的這個郁貞姐對不起不是郁貞兄那個"},{"start":3802.762,"end":3821.196,"text":"就是說其實為了明年度總預算離島因為父母錯誤而減少貨配的統籌分配稅款不全然只能單休16條之一其實我這裡也提出因為院長手中 卓院長手中還有一個他的統籌還有院長的統籌"},{"start":3824.264,"end":3851.621,"text":"那是不是我們這邊也可以有一個想法是說如果說我們財化法可以有完整的處理那麼後年度的預算的籌編就可以用新的財化法去完整的去籌編那明年度離島三縣因為分母錯誤所造成的不足我們是不是請行政院利用院統籌的部分來予以強化我真的是這樣我自己老實說我在澎湖有服務過"},{"start":3852.83,"end":3868.471,"text":"我真的在澎湖服務過超過一年多那麼離島我想不分連江 不分金門 不分澎湖其實都應該跟本島的民眾享有同等受到中央資源挹注的權利這點我絕對支持"},{"start":3869.38,"end":3885.5,"text":"但是我是覺得說這樣的一個彌補的方式如果只用單修16條之一的方式可能會造成一個固此失彼的現象比較沒有全面性的關照其實我個人是比較支持說全面性的來看待"},{"start":3886.221,"end":3913.653,"text":"到底中央統籌有沒有合理的在垂直的分配上有沒有合宜的給予地方應有的挹注因為有多少錢辦多少事過去地方政府常常捉襟見軸就是因為或制的中央統籌分配太少這個我來自於地方政府我也認為是這樣所以今天有這個機會全面性的來檢討垂直的分配怎麼樣中央跟地方在事前事全"},{"start":3914.383,"end":3942.117,"text":"怎麼樣一致性的調整我們全盤現在來檢討或許在這樣檢討之後我們離島三縣能夠得到的資源的挹注可能遠超過我們單休16條之一我真的很誠懇的這樣提出因此我覺得今天是不是說有三點第一個我希望行政院部長在這裡可不可以幫我們爭取11月底前將行政院版的裁判法能夠送到本院來這是第一個"},{"start":3943.075,"end":3957.659,"text":"第二個我們希望如果說我們沒有辦法在今年來不及去處理因為去年的修法的分母造成明年度離島三縣市因此而減少的統籌分配我們希望能夠從行政院的院統籌來予以彌補"},{"start":3959.76,"end":3985.045,"text":"第三個我們希望我們黨團超越黨團有個共識如果行政院在11月底前將這樣的一個完整的裁劃法結合各地方政府的需求送到本院來我們是不是可以快馬加鞭趕緊的將這個裁劃法讓它有一個健全的可長可久的一個完整的修正這樣子我們在後年度的預算籌編"},{"start":3986.064,"end":3995.689,"text":"才會有一個比較穩定的基礎也不至於說如果說了我說推翻不講了如果我們這個財化法今年送來了休息之後結果又要回溯生效"},{"start":3997.096,"end":4018.541,"text":"那明年整個地方政府怎麼大亂啊好不容易明年度我們中央政府總預算以及明年度地方政府所獲配的統籌分配稅他們翻到地方要去審預算囉現在各地方議會也要審明年度預算了嘛所以其實明年度中央跟地方的大概都是大抵定了我們現在努力的把後年度的預算怎麼分配先顧好"},{"start":4019.701,"end":4048.838,"text":"那這樣的話那明年度的這些缺肉我們建議再次重申用院統籌去做一個補救以上三點建議第一行政院趕快送彩畫法第二離島三縣市因為去年修法的分母的錯誤所造成不足院統籌來彌補第三我們朝野各黨共事趕快在年底之前將彩畫法做一個可長可久的妥善的一個修訂以便於我們後年度的預算可以如期的在明年"},{"start":4049.578,"end":4075.859,"text":"獲得分配跟審查 以上好那個 等一下那個 醫生等一下等一下那個現在這樣為那個民進黨團那個嘉賓他們的意見充分表達我想也提出很好的建議就那個11月底以前快馬嘉賓我想參不應該心裡有一個復案了吧這可不可行這個部分你先答覆一下是不是有有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":4077.062,"end":4089.728,"text":"第一個就是我想剛剛中委員提了很多其實財化法真的是希望就是說不管你是身在離島 身在本島我們的國民都能夠獲得基本的一個公共服務這個就是財化法基本財政營需要去調劑的有些不是有這麼好的財政收入所以這個部分我們會快馬加鞭因為財政部也開了四次的會議最近又再開會找地方政府來談"},{"start":4104.054,"end":4109.358,"text":"那另外就是事權相關的一些調整的部分那涉及到整個調整那院裡面也都積極在做所以我們也是以我們會以11月底為目標來加快提出草案那第二個剛剛中委員所提到的有關用統籌來彌補這個彌補離島的部分我想這涉及到這個主總的支出的部分可能要由主總來說明有沒有這樣的一個可能性那大概在草案法的部分我們會統籌"},{"start":4131.352,"end":4144.656,"text":"以後然後跟院裡面提報主席總書來說明是不是因為涉及到支出的支出的調整也就是說他另外要就是說那個因為他要另外從另外一筆錢給離島這個部分說明一下這個部分我們可能還要就剛剛那個建議就是說有我們"},{"start":4155.049,"end":4178.241,"text":"院統籌來去做今年的 明年的離島三線由院統籌的款來去做彌補這部分我們可能還要回院裡面去做討論然後奉偵測指示再來執行還要研究研究多久 研究多久 快一點先請德夫"},{"start":4182.829,"end":4204.69,"text":"我想有關於財化法其實這個也數十年都沒有成功來修過法那歷屆的立委們其實也提出很多修法的需求跟必要性每每要涉及中央跟地方錢跟權的分配那行政院不是程序拖延不然就是迴避話題"},{"start":4206.446,"end":4222.782,"text":"事實上實質三十多年來的舊的財劃法早就失去了它整個客觀以及它的公平性本席我是從第五屆就進入立法院來服務二十多年來"},{"start":4223.883,"end":4248.431,"text":"可以說裁划法 修法總是差你們一腳好不容易終於去年在新法刪讀但卻出現了行政院主張新版的裁划法分配的公式的三項爭議似乎企圖來抹黑新版裁划法的修法的必要就本席來看"},{"start":4249.631,"end":4255.239,"text":"婚配公事 婚母爭議並不是無可回復的瑕疵"},{"start":4256.877,"end":4283.302,"text":"只能說修法過程中行政院跟財政部並沒有來表述並且發現法律文字未來執行上的細節以至於在修法後反而變成漸劣新習拿著計算公式的分母真立要放大整個修法的瑕疵來企圖影響整個大眾所以說本席認為"},{"start":4285.899,"end":4294.546,"text":"這個行政院跟就是財政部這方面你們應該要趕快做處理不要再拖拉以上 謝謝"},{"start":4296.587,"end":4318.62,"text":"好 謝謝您的副委員陳醫師委員要做補充沒有 他講完再來你先講 我先講我先講好 醫生先舉手你先講沒有 因為我講過了你可以先講好 那我來醫師講完換昆城我來回復我來回復中嘉賓委員的這個發言那當然針對整個修法我來講一下事實上這個財化修法這個我們財務會非常的善意從去年的6月"},{"start":4319.56,"end":4348.575,"text":"做結議說三個月內讓九月那時候已經還是羅明才擔任召委的時候說給你們三個月那時候也說三個月你們提出院版你們遲遲不提出來當然這不是財政部的意見是院長說什麼現行的版本就是最好版說你們也不能忤逆執政黨這個我們也理解好那你們不提出來我們提出來在整個修法過程中並不是衝突通過開過好多次會議民進黨上來一直講哪裡不好哪裡不好哪裡還找個各縣市都來了然後最後民進黨就是不願意討論他們是以拖待變他們那時候"},{"start":4349.335,"end":4373.933,"text":"民進黨中央中心目標就是不願意修法我們看得很清楚對這個才是真正的這個真正的原因並不是他們真的想要民進黨並不是想要修法他就是以拖待變好所以我們就是人數多數過了以後他就開始執政黨照說這個幾個公視上的東西不所謂所謂公視上的東西你們解釋什麼都是可以的是你們就要找出這樣的東西說所以你們充實通過反而怪罪在"},{"start":4374.893,"end":4394.11,"text":"這個修法的身上然後還把一般性主計師這邊還把一般性不太不同我剛講過 又把它減少造成好像還造成說好像個性是變少的這個問題只是依照修法內容個性是一定是增多的好 那我們來講剛剛回到鍾嘉銘委員剛剛說的幾點都說得很好 高大上但是我們務實的來看"},{"start":4395.971,"end":4419.054,"text":"現在今天這個兩黨 三黨今天草野 應該說草野會走到這個地步就是信任度不夠他現在都說得很好這個好以後我們給你什麼如果到時候沒給你能怎樣呢所以你要說的話我們要怎麼樣把東西為什麼財政收支方我們要把它法治化就是這個原因第一個他說這三個版本沒錯本來每個委員就會有自己的版本所以才會有這個"},{"start":4419.935,"end":4436.048,"text":"出委員會以後才會有這個協商的機制嘛協商的機制就在這裡我們把各個委員的版本的好的部分提出來不足的部分補上去比如說像本席的版本為什麼寫到每句都寫到離島三縣市而我們黨團版本只寫到最後一句因為你不知道到時候出來以後什麼離島的話民進黨會不會說離島不是只有金門馬祖澎湖啊這個什麼那個"},{"start":4443.354,"end":4458.606,"text":"屏東也有離島 哪裡也有離島因為離島經驗條例離島是韓國很多到時候他又給亂解釋所以我們才會把離島三縣市寫在每一句裡頭這個就是防小人 沒辦法因為他們會解釋到這樣我們只要一句一句都要寫進去不厭其煩的告訴他離島三縣市就是指金門 馬祖 澎湖"},{"start":4460.666,"end":4482.049,"text":"這是防他們到時候又說這個離島不是只有金門馬祖澎湖這個是我們會寫到這麼仔細是因為這個關係不是說好像寫得很最智很多而是沒辦法你如果不這樣寫到時候你不知道他會有什麼樣解釋這個就像我剛說一般性不穿那個三十條那個裡頭一樣所以第一個我們寫得很仔細我本系列版本是很仔細接著呢"},{"start":4483.428,"end":4507.836,"text":"陳學生委員領先的這個版本就我們剛中委員所說的各檔版這個是補這個就是說四個月以前的他也寫得很仔細 也是怕有意外到時候主計總署又說這個不行 那個不行什麼檔團就更完整把這個幾年幾月幾日就直接再寫進去所以我覺得三個版本綜合起來就是最好的版本把每一個有可能他們會做手腳的地方都把它補足"},{"start":4509.036,"end":4535.663,"text":"在有關離島的這個部分不讓執政黨到時候解釋有任何坐手腳的空間所以今天要討論也試試看如果這個三個版本綜合以後你們還有哪一句解釋覺得可能會有其他的解釋空間你們要告訴我們那我們要把它修好我們立法就是補這個把所有的漏洞補上這個是這個就是所以今天為什麼要為什麼要這樣的協商也是這樣子謝謝我們這個宗家編委這樣提出來所以我們就把三個版本綜合起來把每一個都填進去這個第一個第二個"},{"start":4538.244,"end":4543.587,"text":"來 這綜合版本第二 它的所謂第六目那個我剛剛已經解釋過下一個撥款機制的問題剛剛這個莊嘉斌委員也說得很好他說好 現在因為哪裡不夠哪裡不夠那現在比如說現在比如說我們財政部先把臨江縣缺的10億補上至於這個"},{"start":4556.734,"end":4578.204,"text":"統籌分析法各地方的這個就是叫做自籌款那個不夠的部分我們還要修財政收支方法財政分級法分級那個是主計總署的我們要把它法制化不是你們今天說10%第5名10%第5名的是10%今天突然變成50%沒有一點制度隨便隨你們解釋這個東西我們也提出來要把它法制化"},{"start":4580.305,"end":4602.876,"text":"財政分級 五級 四級 三級 兩級 一級應該自籌款比例是多少 把它法制化一般性不管 未接法制化大家都把它法制化 就不會有爭議今天執政黨是藍還是綠 還是白都不重要 它都不會說因為不一樣對不同的政黨之間按照顏色做出不同的這種自籌款的要求這樣才是達到完全的公平"},{"start":4603.436,"end":4626.295,"text":"那中間委員說得好那因為這個說2025已經在審2026的預算我知道各地議會在審了那如果你錢現在下來明年不是不能做追加減啊好就算中間委員提出一個善意說那把它變成2027統一給用院版的這個統一來給統籌分配款用行政院的統籌分配款來給我知道這個錢因為沒有公視沒分配下去國庫署聽一下國庫署"},{"start":4628.517,"end":4646.951,"text":"中委你聽一下因為你剛剛提的那個有一個這個東西要注意國庫有說那個統籌分析稅款因為這個公司現在公司這樣子不修的情況下這個錢是分不下去的也是留在國庫裡是不能撥到別的地方的對吧上回你們我看媒體報告是這樣講不能就不能留在這裡不能往東也不能往西就"},{"start":4647.932,"end":4659.201,"text":"卡在那裡 就停在那裡 不要說卡在那裡那停在那裡的話 您的意思是說好2027用願來分赤給大家不是不好的主意啊問題是我怎麼知道2027你會不會照做呢你要在哪一條裡頭跟我寫說你這個錢在2027撥下來你寫出來啊因為現在朝野就是沒有戶信嘛你說的都很好很好 美麗的夢想寫下來"},{"start":4669.329,"end":4691.396,"text":"文字寫下來 你說你這個建議我也覺得不是不可以思考你寫說哪一年 哪一月 哪一日多少錢用按照現在的就是你也支持離島 這些個錢比如說剩345億 離島有220億每一個縣市按照現在的分配的公式算出來金門 馬祖 澎湖在哪一年 哪一月 哪一日這個中央要從哪裡撥錢下來這個東西白紙黑字寫下來"},{"start":4693.777,"end":4709.256,"text":"因為大家都知道如果你還沒給先先你都說得很好聽現在有法通過的我舉例有法通過叫做這個警察的那個什麼退休人事條例35條軍人加薪法律都通過你們都還不做你還跟我發說以後說2027會給你現在欠以前2027全部給你你覺得離島的居民會這麼容易受騙嗎"},{"start":4714.062,"end":4738.955,"text":"你們要覺得 我覺得你的建議很好啊問題是 如果今天行這個樣子的事情我覺得有可能啊 你現在講的我相信你說明會做到我也不知道啊 2027不知道是怎麼樣啊然後你們講的是不是算數呢有沒有白紙黑字呢 怎麼執行呢或者你要先付我們多少呢幾月幾號你給我們多少呢這個都要講啊 我們連白紙黑字通過警察 人事條例跟軍人加薪你們都可以不給了 這種東西依法的我們如何會有信心你2027會給我們錢 2026不給說我2027再來給你"},{"start":4741.596,"end":4765.517,"text":"我覺得這個太遠的那個夢想很不能期待啦好 謝謝陳一芝委現在請李坤澄召委謝謝市民召委其實大家今天這個財務法的修正大家把時間拉到去年三讀通過那個時候去年是12月20號通過大家知道12月20號通過那個場景是怎麼樣"},{"start":4766.758,"end":4785.678,"text":"非常匆匆忙忙的通過不只是財劃法 限數法然後還有選罷法都是在12月的時候當天通過的那個場景大家都知道了這個不用再去贅述所以匆匆忙忙的修法就造成說現在有這個對於離島的影響不管是離島還是本島都是中華民國國民"},{"start":4786.679,"end":4798.995,"text":"我們當然希望說這個財化法的修法本來應該要對於財力比較弱的縣市能夠因為財化法的修法得到比較多的一些支持但是因為現在出現問題了我是覺得說"},{"start":4803.01,"end":4827.868,"text":"這次的修法16條之一都是屬於一次性的修法那一次性的修法只是為了彌補說上次的修法的一個缺失那剛剛這個部長也有提到說希望能夠在11月底把這個原本的財務法把它弄出來那所以我是在這邊想說我們跟市民召委我們剛好這兩個這個會期我們兩個是召委我們就要求"},{"start":4829.391,"end":4849.221,"text":"這個財政部我們就把這個願版的財劃法在11月底要送出來然後這個是比較完整的就是不是一次性的修法那也把這個力道所關心的這個統籌分配款的分配的這個模式再把它寫得更清楚一點所以我是在這邊建議說是不是我們就等願版的"},{"start":4850.241,"end":4876.959,"text":"這一個原本的才化法一起出來一起來做討論會比說這一次只有單一式的修法修完之後整個才化法還要再修我覺得這個是曠日廢時所以我們就具體要求送出來一起來好好的修這樣子這部法就會比較可長可久了不要說"},{"start":4877.939,"end":4903.589,"text":"因為剛剛嘉賓委員他是很好意把三個版本的不足部分都把它舉出來了所以我是認為說既然都還有不足的地方那不如就等這一個院版的財化法出來之後我們大家一起來討論也請我們在野黨的朋友我們就大家一起來支持我們一定會要求那就是11月底一定要送出來如果11月底沒送出來你們要過你們就過"},{"start":4905.23,"end":4926.342,"text":"所以我覺得這個他的建議很好坤城委員建議很好那所以我們這個就綜合起來我們把他送出去然後也是同步等他嘛送出去以後一樣可以等他嘛他不做我們就往前走了是一樣嘛沒錯啊不是啊 我們就送在送在朝一夕陽等他嘛不是啊 那個坤城兄剛才那個剛才嘉賓委員嘉賓委員講的是很好啦我都聽下去了"},{"start":4933.48,"end":4958.738,"text":"問題跟陳玉珍委員講的我們怕被騙啊所以要白紙寫黑字啊你看以前財化法要院版提出來院版一直都不提啊黨版你們黨團版本也沒有嘛對不對那現在就是說今天這個案16條之一是亡羊補牢啦亡羊補牢你這個案沒讓他過比如像嘉敏委員講說哎呀怎麼樣院長有什麼他依法他沒有參據嘛沒有參據的話這個到底錢給誰咧"},{"start":4963.271,"end":4989.142,"text":"你不能要一百要三百要五百要提出一百個案兩百個案不可能的事情所以我是說雙成版這個十六條之一我的版本先讓他過追溯四個月因為我們現在預算已經編了我們的稅務預算是虛的不是編七億我們編二十二億我們編虛的先編上去了因為等著十六條之一要讓他通過通過以後"},{"start":4991.325,"end":5019.314,"text":"那你財政部才有所遵循嘛好 我再回頭講江明委員剛才講的事情明年省預算怎麼省 這很重要現在行政院各部會對各縣市政府所有的一般補助款只給一半只給一半的意思表示你所有在施政計畫進行中的一些比如說建築及設備再蓋房子的部分你只給一半"},{"start":5020.1,"end":5043.813,"text":"那要縣政府拿錢出來 它拿不出來啊它拿不出來怎麼辦 就爛尾樓 就停擺所有的工程 河川什麼道路什麼 全部都停擺那你這樣的話怎麼辦呢你一定逼得反對黨要提修法嘛反對黨要去修法修法說你不得低於過去的多少多少多少提出來 又亂了又搞亂了"},{"start":5046.465,"end":5071.641,"text":"剛才嘉明委員講的我們不一定要這個什麼統籌分配這個才化法嘛為什麼要反對黨來搞這個呢你財政部弄一套可長可久的你不要今天殺反對黨的也不一定殺到反對黨啦這個都一致全國各縣市都也有綠的當縣長嘛對不對你全部殺的結果綠的也挨挨叫藍的也挨挨叫叫苦連天當然現在藍軍這個縣市市比較多一點"},{"start":5075.819,"end":5104.457,"text":"所以你這問題沒辦法解決啊那勢必造成反對黨這邊明年省預算你給地方政府給一半對不對你補助款一半補助款給一半我就殺你一半你還是沒錢啊你說地方要配合50的部分你得到什麼便宜你得不到便宜我一樣把你殺掉啊一定砍嘛就砍的是理直氣壯的砍啊這個沒有意義嘛是不是那至於這一次"},{"start":5106.34,"end":5132.192,"text":"這個國民黨民眾黨提出來的版本這個財化法當然會有一些不公平我是說你財政部可以弄更公平的東西出來啊是不是 江泓委員講的你在十一月底還不是十二月你十一月底就要弄出來因為我們代表委員都在審預算啊是不是還有你電視上不停的報說什麼什麼什麼那個平均統三什麼百分之三是不是現在"},{"start":5134.652,"end":5161.205,"text":"統刪3%造成你們什麼水電費不足啊 衛生紙都沒有啦現在我們省預算不這樣刪了不給你來什麼統刪了一樣一樣來 搞個一萬多件出來一樣一樣來就沒有什麼衛生紙衛生紙 汽油 房租一定通通給你保留好好的是不是啊 給你保留好好的那這個你殺我的牛 我殺你的馬這個中華民國政府這樣子在鬥爭不停的"},{"start":5162.421,"end":5190.542,"text":"我不是講說你們在逗我們就我們逗你好了也逗來逗去嘛是不是你逗來逗去的結果是老闆贏之福嗎不是啦所以部長我覺得剛才江北委員很不容易吐出來了你們要休這邊也在注意因為大家已經發現這樣的問題了嘛那今天這個雙城的16條之一啊有關追溯4個月你一定要追溯你不追溯的話我們已經停擺了政務停擺啊"},{"start":5191.55,"end":5220.035,"text":"你中央政府還在執政 縣政府已經倒了縣政府已經倒了所以你現在就是說 就還原嘛 還原嘛國民黨黨法裡面最終來的一條就是後面第38條之二嘛 是不是 38條之二嘛這個生效嘛那後面呢 你們有休的話可以做一個政黨協商 黨團討論我們把問題提出來 把問題解決你現在 你看我錢拿的少我錢拿的少 我還提版本咧"},{"start":5221.052,"end":5243.647,"text":"我提版本 金門拿110 澎湖拿7、80我就22 22你現在又砍我的一般補助款我們蓋縣政府大樓 這一期要分別1億6 你只給我8千萬 剩下8千萬怎麼辦你叫縣政府出去搶劫嗎 去美國搶還是去英國搶這有問題嘛 不然到台灣來搶 所以這個有問題嘛"},{"start":5247.143,"end":5274.626,"text":"所以我希望嘉賓委員剛才講的很好我都聽下去了因為我跟他從國民大會老同事一直到現在他腦袋是很清楚啦我們老同事非常久了所以拜託部長我也拜託民進黨同仁裴宇你也督導我們馬祖嘛對不對你督導我們馬祖他很謙虛啊他都叫我前輩啦那你也督導馬祖這個案子"},{"start":5275.495,"end":5288.605,"text":"我想先讓縣政府的現務運作能夠運轉那至於澎湖跟金門有多出來的部分那可能又在行政程序上面你們怎麼處理還是可以協調的啦就是我們先把這個幾個版本送出去然後反正送出去還要院長協商嘛對不對 先送出委員會嘛好 那最後這個黃先生委員"},{"start":5306.027,"end":5325.933,"text":"所以主委我想剛剛大家都講完了其實就是我們先出去反正11月底有版本就有版本沒版本我們就自己過了所以也不用再等來等去我覺得這樣比較簡單而且都已經大家都沒意見了內容應該其實出去連協商都不用就直接大家簽一簽以後也不用再吵了OK 那個好 那傑斌 來"},{"start":5329.19,"end":5350.722,"text":"我們同事我就說老實話因為我覺得這三個版本如果是以陳玉珍委員跟陳元委員的那個版本其實它在立法的體力上是最簡潔對於之前的分母錯誤也有修正其實可以大家一直支持"},{"start":5351.907,"end":5364.265,"text":"那個版本比較單純就是我現在拿這個版本上面有那個我們陳玉珍委員還跟陳雪生委員不是這個這個的雙層版因為因為他在沒有沒有"},{"start":5365.84,"end":5385.118,"text":"但是我想的這個提案因為這三個版本是不一樣因為為什麼 抱歉主席為什麼我說如果手上沒有一個條文對照表就可能我要描述的就會比較辛苦我現在再一次講一次雙層版因為它就是很清楚的在16條之一在去年修法的基礎式上修正了分母的問題"},{"start":5387.02,"end":5413.003,"text":"那這樣的一個從立法體力上來講這是最簡潔有效的方式那相較於另外兩個版本呢因為他們分別在38條之一或者是在第四項第五項做了一些文字的一些補充那老實說那些文字啊從立法上來講都是一次性的文字就是那樣的一個文字的內容呢只是處理什麼只是處理"},{"start":5414.284,"end":5435.618,"text":"我們這次修正它的適用期程我想學生兄我們老同事這麼久了其實我也是這樣或許我這個表示完之後可以我們休息個兩三分鐘或者五分鐘我們跟部長這邊私下有一些了解因為怎麼講我們現在無非的我知道今天我們離島不管是兩位陳委員還是位在場的楊委員"},{"start":5437.739,"end":5462.416,"text":"他們關心的是說因為去年倉促修法這個分母的錯誤影響到離島明年度他們獲至中央政府統籌分配的額度我們要想辦法把這個補救我也支持要想辦法補救不能讓離島的三個縣市因為去年倉促修法的錯誤去承擔他們獲配的這些中央政府統籌不足"},{"start":5464.837,"end":5479.446,"text":"什麼叫不足不足他明年想要推動的地方建設所以我是覺得這個要怎麼去彌補這是一個課題但是16條之一倉促修法的分母錯誤怎麼修正這是另外一個課題我是建議把兩個課題法律的歸法律"},{"start":5481.367,"end":5502.403,"text":"財政的歸財政法律的文字弄好了後年不會再有問題了當然還要考慮到我們接續財政收支的話還會再修那是一件事情那是整體的至少不會是個別的由離島的人離島的縣市來承擔我是覺得是這樣但是現在眼前看到的明年這三個縣市獲配的"},{"start":5503.428,"end":5527.963,"text":"統籌分配稅款可能不足以支應他們期待的地方建設那這個不足我是覺得行政院要出來解決我們把明年度三個離島縣市他支持地方建設不足的這些需求我們行政院來解決那我們今天在這裡純粹去修正去年修法的疏漏把這兩個分開來"},{"start":5529.924,"end":5542.447,"text":"因為如果說你通常要解決這兩個問題會造成另外兩個版本的一個最大問題是他們多了很多一些一次性的文字描述而那些一次性的法律條文以後都不會用到了以後都不會用到"},{"start":5543.542,"end":5562.457,"text":"所以我會覺得說從修法的立場來講我們可長可久我們更正去年的錯誤那明年度的所需求的有不足的部分我們請行政院來協助三個里導這是我的建議那有沒有可行性我是建議主席我們休息下來討論一下好不好"},{"start":5565.175,"end":5590.442,"text":"我那個補充那個一下就是說那中國委員會說支持我提出的這個版本然後呢 那很容易啊那就把那兩個部分放在立法理由裡頭補充說明啊這樣子到時候執行起來就有方向啊看這樣法治上可不可行啊就在立法理由就說今年什麼時候就要做什麼事情啊你說的是 我知道你說整個立法體力沒有辦法為一次性修法那你要在立法理由說明嘛說什麼時候決定什麼事情嘛你看法治上這樣是不是更可行啊"},{"start":5592.492,"end":5594.293,"text":"休息一下可以 我們休息五分鐘討論一下"},{"start":5622.739,"end":5642.294,"text":"我覺得因為"},{"start":5650.658,"end":5662.284,"text":"所以他們都講1900萬"},{"start":5671.142,"end":5672.203,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":5693.152,"end":5708.842,"text":"今天在訪問"},{"start":5725.387,"end":5733.81,"text":"如果他們一種經驗完整的話這個等於是我把這個"},{"start":5750.562,"end":5759.391,"text":"還有一點東西"},{"start":5766.039,"end":5784.277,"text":"我覺得這樣,我們今天討論修法,如果你要把這些地方都通俗一點的話為什麼要寫時間,就是我們要確定怎麼會法律那如果這樣,我們就說什麼法律,因為我今天很承認,我們今天如果是修法"},{"start":5808.437,"end":5808.457,"text":"預算協調"},{"start":5809.318,"end":5817.268,"text":"这边是我们的主牌 这边是我们的主牌"},{"start":5819.54,"end":5832.063,"text":"因為我是表達我們爭議如果你的另外兩台送在那邊壓就是只有一個馬送你那邊你另外兩台送另外一台因為另外兩台跟這一個送在那邊壓"},{"start":5841.105,"end":5868.163,"text":"好,沒有,我會,我覺得說,好啦,好啦,還是,我是,師父很高興,還是在意,還是我們在,我們在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,在,"},{"start":5875.111,"end":5885.964,"text":"這個還是沒辦法達成共識好各位委員我想我們"},{"start":5887.334,"end":5903.625,"text":"經過充分討論我想大家都充分表達意見但是還是沒有辦法達成共識所以我們今天的協商16條之一還有38條之二我們均保留送宴會協商對 還要送宴會協商我們今天會到這裡我們散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}