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第一點就是說剛剛也有委員談到這個事情那我們會剛剛也提到說我們會用書面的方式就司法案提的一個議題我們會主點來表達我們意見給委員會然後這是大概是大的方向是這樣我現在大概就針對幾個我個人認為說一定要說明清楚不然很難"},{"start":195.819,"end":220.274,"text":"這個獲得這個立法上面支持的幾個點來這邊跟你請教那我看今天司法院我們是由這個行政訴訟及懲戒廳的法官合法官我想合法官應該是在這個對司法院這個意見是相當的清楚現在才代表司法院來了那很抱歉我們就請合法官來啦這個這事務長你留步我們就是要討論這幾個問題第一個齁 來"},{"start":224.775,"end":225.336,"text":"首先針對這個修正條件第16條"},{"start":232.421,"end":243.505,"text":"第一項第二款過去原本我們這是有關於供貨獎懲的部分我們把獎勵跟懲處把它分開來這16條就變成專論懲處這部分有針對違反服務法令跟紀律行為的部分我們在第一項第二款有一個降序一級這個是新增的規定有關降序一級"},{"start":260.191,"end":268.43,"text":"降序一級的這個規定這部分司法院是不是能夠講一下有關於這個降序一級你們在書面議件裡面所提的這個意見"},{"start":269.042,"end":295.836,"text":"好 各位委員報告因為這個司法院大法官釋字第483號解釋曾經明確的做過解釋關於這個公務員的降級或減縫當時大法官認為就是必須要經過公務員懲戒機關這個目前就是懲戒法院依法定程序審議決定如果不是依照這個程序審議決定不得降級或減縫大法官當時認為這個是憲法上服公職權利所受的自主性保障好 謝謝那我們請事務部長回答一下有關於這個降序一級"},{"start":297.338,"end":313.699,"text":"這個剛剛司法院的意見說認為這大法會議已經解釋了這是專屬於司法權了我想跟我們報告我們內部有討論過因為481號的解釋那時候那時候的奉集法那個考集法根本還沒有降序以久我們認為這是一個只要在立法政策上裡面放上去呢實際上是沒有這個問題的"},{"start":315.014,"end":334.194,"text":"你們在就是你們立法理由就是解釋之前事實上是這個考紀法也沒有這個降序以舉這種概念那我們認為呢只要符合法律保障的一個程序我們把它放在法律裡面立法就是立法會授權放在法律裡面但是你這個大法會議解釋他解釋說這個是屬於"},{"start":335.835,"end":348.685,"text":"懲戒法院也就是司法權它是屬於司法權才可以做我想大法官這解釋是回到懲戒跟懲處最上位的那個區分那我們認為我們這一次是用行政懲處的方式來處理這個問題"},{"start":351.109,"end":368.472,"text":"降序是行政懲處嗎我們認為行政懲處把用法律的方式加進來降序讓機關針對不同類型的現在爭議的是司法院認為這個降序不能用行政懲處這是專屬於司法權的這是司法懲戒法院才可以做的"},{"start":369.332,"end":391.122,"text":"跟我有報告因為這個所謂的制度性保障他就是憲法上憲法層級的一種程序的保障所以當時大法官應該是認為說這個公務員要被降級或減分他必須要經過一定的程序這個程序大法官講的就是公務員承接機關依法定程序審議所以這個當時大法官說這是制度性保障制度性保障是憲法層級的保障他並不是因為"},{"start":392.843,"end":404.376,"text":"這個哪個法律怎麼定他就可以隨意去修改的那483號解釋目前也沒有被後面的任何的解釋或是憲法判決推翻過所以他目前仍然是有效的解釋依照這個憲法訴訟法規定的"},{"start":406.707,"end":431.564,"text":"所以這個部分齁,這個部分我認為,這個事務長你剛才解釋有一點就是說你認為這個降序也屬於行政處分的部分但是依照這個司法院的意見認為所謂檢控或者是降序,這個都是都是屬於司法權,都是由懲戒法院才能做的所以你現在在這裡新增了這個降序一級齁,這個在未來立法上面這個會"},{"start":432.845,"end":442.618,"text":"會有違憲的疑慮就是說即使我們立法院支持你通過了如果有人因為這樣這樣去了現在送憲法法庭事實上是有可能"},{"start":443.598,"end":461.954,"text":"依照司法院意見你這個是有可能被判處被做違憲判決的這部分我希望說我覺得你們內部齁應該我個人認為你們在立法理由裡面提到說483號解釋齁這個提說非侵懲戒程序不得為降級處分齁"},{"start":464.156,"end":477.447,"text":"你們提到說舉重以民輕的原則啦你意思就是說免職都是屬於行政機關的專屬權利的那這樣續比免職還輕所以你們意思只會舉重以民輕是這個意思嘛對不對"},{"start":478.904,"end":497.795,"text":"你說這個解釋就是說這個免職的權利是屬於行政權的核心權利所以免職都已經是核心權利了所以降序應該也是屬於行政權但是司法院看法完全不同他認為說檢訪跟降序他就是必須經過懲戒法院的程序必須他是專屬於司法權他認為這是在憲法裡面的規定"},{"start":499.256,"end":515.664,"text":"這部分第一個我們在我們進入逐條之前我認為你們這部分如果不做解決這一條這個將去處分的這個規定我們到時候可能會有很大的爭議那接著有關於第20條我們這次修正案的第20條"},{"start":517.54,"end":536.732,"text":"基本上這個司法院在這一條也非常非常有意見就是你們所提到在第20條的第4項基本上就規定說同一個違私的行為如果已經做了行政的處分就不再就排除掉這個移送懲戒了就不再移送懲戒就用行政處分來排除"},{"start":537.737,"end":566.263,"text":"司法權的移送懲戒移送懲戒就是交由監察院或者是由懲戒法院來處理那第五項就是說懲戒法院審理當中停止就必須要停止程序跟包括救濟程序都要停止這部分大概第20條司法院在這兩個部分有非常大的意見這部分是不是先請合法官我們就這個所謂同意為師行為不再移送懲戒這個部分"},{"start":567.202,"end":593.65,"text":"你要不要說一下你們司法院的看法跟委員報告確實這個部分我們司法院確實是有蠻大的意見這個詳細的內容當然是書面不過我想我提出一個議題像最近大家如果看到新聞懲戒法公務員被考積法免職之後那因為考積法的免職目前是沒有禁止在任的效果的但其實我們懲戒法的免職如果是被懲戒法判決免職的話原則上是終身禁止在任公務員那這位這位何法官你講的是第11條的問題"},{"start":595.451,"end":623.274,"text":"我現在這邊提說就是他封主會造成一個問題就是他如果被考積法免職之後就算依照現在的草案他經過一定時間之後都還是可以再任的兩年所以他等於是所以先變成說如果這個公務員有了重大違時結果被機關用考積法免職之後他就沒辦法移送懲戒了那他就不會被懲戒法院判決免職這樣的結果就變成這個公務員在一定期間經過之後他就可以再任了他本來如果到懲戒法院被判決免職他是終生不能再任公務員的"},{"start":623.934,"end":639.067,"text":"所以我覺得他效果是沒有辦法取代司法懲戒的部長你知道司法院講的意思嗎我當然知道你說明一下我覺得這種講法即使案子送到工程會去工程會是不是一定會給予更重的"},{"start":640.364,"end":643.969,"text":"免職本身的效果我們免職效果是兩年以後不能再任但是在公務人員任用法裡面是永久"},{"start":655.526,"end":683.326,"text":"是永久的消極資格你如果依照公務員任用法免職的你終身都不能都不能在任但是按照烤雞法免職的兩年後可以在任而偏偏你們是按照烤雞法兩年的免職裡面的你們的條件有很多都是非常重大的判國這些這些等等這些重大罪行就重大罪行的兩年後可以在任但是一般按照公務員任用法免職的我理解"},{"start":684.006,"end":707.858,"text":"我的意思是在講是說我們根據考機法如果趕快免職以後我們現在因為我們基於不要製造這個如果同樣一個室友送到工程會去第一個工程會通常每個案件處理時間都很久事實上我們要強調的是快速所以第二個送去以後同一個室友啦送到工程會去工程會未必一定會判他那個終身免職也有可能是撤職"},{"start":708.891,"end":733.867,"text":"所以我們的任用就是不得再任用兩年那工程會撤止最長五年那過去實務慣例上大概是兩到三年所以我的意思在講這個是如果用這套邏輯應該這樣解釋至於是什麼東西適不適合在公務任用法裡面直接講說這些重大事由是不是就應該要終身免職這是另外一個立法政策的問題公務人員任用法第28條"},{"start":735.208,"end":755.813,"text":"第一項第六款的規定它承受免職、懲處處分者系不得任用公務人員之永久消極資格永久終生永久消極資格不因時間經過而消滅所以按照這一條的免職它的時效是永遠不得再任但是如果你們用這個因為你們就用了這個考積法"},{"start":760.094,"end":782.51,"text":"就先行政 先用行政懲處 然後排除掉就用這一條把他排除掉 送懲戒你說因為已經送處分了 有人說不送懲戒不送懲戒你就排除掉他 未來在司法上面受到終身按照公務員任用法 終身不得任用的這個限制就排除掉了"},{"start":783.88,"end":796.051,"text":"這個是第一個啦我們不要講說到免職啦你們因為這樣子的你們這個立法就是基本上就變成你們用行政懲處你們來整個就是封阻掉司法的懲戒"},{"start":798.514,"end":814.887,"text":"我們沒有封主啦我們是說同一個室友如果行政已經做出懲處了已經確定了就不要再往下沒有沒有 這個就是問題啊你行政已經懲處了你就封主掉他未來就不再送司法的懲戒但司法懲戒"},{"start":816.48,"end":828.679,"text":"司法懲戒你這樣會造成一個結果啦會造成一種例如說你有關於這個霸凌啦或者是其他的這些案件我趕快在你被移送懲戒之前我趕快先做行政處分"},{"start":829.625,"end":854.796,"text":"那你就不得再送懲戒了那我要跟委員報告就是說社會上非常期待呢只要是有類似公務人員這重大為事的事情刑事機關就是要立即做出處理我想委員應該也支持這樣這個我支持我意思是說你們做了行政懲處之後為什麼要排除掉為什麼我做了行政懲處我就排除掉他的移送因為如果再往後面去我們不曉得後面的那個第一個他時間會拖很久"},{"start":856.241,"end":880.059,"text":"事實上他處理個案我們最近看那個事要大概快到一年我的意思是說時效你行政可以很快的做行政處分但是你你為什麼要排除掉我做行政處分之後就不能不再送不再移送懲戒我覺得這個人是同一個室友不要有兩個處分事實上在憲判第九號裡面大概說這個程序面你們是不是應該都去了解一下我們是用這種方式來避免這個事情講一下這個意見我剛剛講法跟這個事務長講法"},{"start":885.698,"end":904.778,"text":"對確實目前其實目前限制就是這個樣子其實行政機關目前本來就可以先以考機法來做這個考機法的懲處但是目前的限制是他並不會排除他同時做完懲處之後同時將案件移付懲戒那目前的規定是如果後續懲戒法院做出了懲戒判決之後有做懲戒處分那原本的前面的懲處會失效"},{"start":905.399,"end":933.353,"text":"那這樣的做法其實就是現在的做法其實並不會有剛剛市部長講的說他沒辦法立即處理的問題因為他其實現在本來依照現在的規定他現在行政機關跑完這個行政懲處流程之後他就可以做懲處的免治了好 謝謝 市部長跟委員報告這個絕對是立法政策的問題那我要實際提供一個討論就是說社會上期待我們要盡快處理這個事情那處理完以後就讓它結束了就不要在我後面的程序Pending在那裡那實際上"},{"start":934.915,"end":959.232,"text":"老實說 行政法 懲戒法案對最重的處罰曾祭出叫做終身免職的這個處分不管是什麼案件 我想比例應該是很低很低那我們這一次把行政懲處的概念讓刑事機關有各種可以回應社會的一個機會馬上處理我覺得這才是一個應該要走的方式剛剛委員提到像什麼內亂懷患這種東西那個在任用法就明摩禁止了"},{"start":960.493,"end":973.938,"text":"現在的討論的重點是為什麼你們要修法上面要增訂這一條說我已經進行行政主任之後我要排除掉你以後就不再送司法懲戒了我還是一樣這是最重要一個是行政紀律的貫徹這個沒有"},{"start":975.758,"end":989.965,"text":"到現行一樣啊剛剛司法院講現行我也可以做行政懲處同時移送因為後面我們不曉得會發生什麼事情發生什麼事情是司法權啊但是我覺得對動物同仁來講我行政權可以先做處分但是後續司法權做什麼樣的判決我們可以再來"},{"start":990.845,"end":1019.544,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們的態度是行政權做處分以完以後公務同仁所有的救濟就進入到他的救濟程序對不起時間的關係他可以進入到他的救濟程序司法院引用了一個非常重量級的叫做憲法第77條司法院認為公務員的這個懲戒是專屬於司法權的用憲法第77條簡單講就是說他們認為你這樣子用這個行政懲戒來排除掉後續的這個司法懲戒他們認為這個就違憲了"},{"start":1021.125,"end":1039.734,"text":"所以未來如果有這樣子的問題,一樣未來再送這個憲法法庭的時候,這條你同樣有可能會被判決為違憲這個是司法院所提出來的警示,這部分我認為說你們一樣在逐條之前你們必須要解釋清楚,不然連我說的我還"},{"start":1043.41,"end":1065.697,"text":"我還蠻贊同司法院的意見我認為說司法院意見的邏輯非常清楚針對這個憲法上面最後一點點時間就是有關於你們在第17條你們提到說經檢察官提起公訴加上機關認定你們就可以進行一次計兩大過處分可以於免職"},{"start":1067.22,"end":1087.866,"text":"這個部分司法院也非常有意見啊認為說為什麼經檢察官起訴機關認定他還沒有還沒有這個司法最後的判決你們就可以可以這個進行他認為說這個就是在正當程序無罪推定跟比例原則都違反了我跟委員報告這個也是現行考機法裡面就有類似的規定了"},{"start":1088.968,"end":1116.822,"text":"好這部分我們我想逐條的時候我們再來進行這個討論不過我希望說司法院的這個意見我們司法院的意見這部分我個人認為他講得蠻清楚的就是不是反對你們的修法而是你們修法這裡面有這幾個點這個司法院認為非常有疑慮我本席也認為說這個部分在法律上面有一些疑義這個在未來逐條審查的時候可能會遇到問題以上"},{"start":1119.551,"end":1120.034,"text":"好,谢谢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:14.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:16.943000+08:00","text":"主席，請施部長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席（張委員雅琳代）","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:16.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:22.727000+08:00","text":"好，請施部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:22.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:23.988000+08:00","text":"沈委員早。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:23.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:24.068000+08:00","text":"施部長早。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:26.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:54:41.496000+08:00","text":"不曉得部長有沒有印象，3月19日司法院進行立法計畫跟業務報告的時候，當時本席就針對考績法的問題跟施部長請教。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:54:42.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:11.580000+08:00","text":"那個時候最主要當然是針對公共政策網路參與平台的某個民間提案，裡面主要有幾個重點，大概就是甲等、乙等這些比例的規定，另外有關評量的機制，再來就是考評、評核的責任，大概就是這幾點。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:11.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:18.325000+08:00","text":"我看這次在5月15日你們終於推出了考績法的修正草案，當時我就問這個考績法什麼時候要修？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:19.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:24.370000+08:00","text":"當時部長說會很快地送進立法院，你們5月15日送進來，今天才開這個會。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:27.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:46.204000+08:00","text":"我看了你們送進來的草案，基本上像網路政策平台或民間大家所關心的，也就是我剛剛提的這幾個問題，你們都在這個修正草案中作出回應，而且基本上也都是往這個方向在修正，這個部分我要先給你們肯定。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:47.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:52.008000+08:00","text":"但是我現在要請教部長的是，不曉得部長有沒有看到今天司法院的書面報告？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:53.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:53.817000+08:00","text":"我有看到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:54.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:55.318000+08:00","text":"有看到司法院的書面報告？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:55.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:55:57.479000+08:00","text":"對，昨天晚上同仁有給我看一下。","quality":0.385},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:55:58.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:02.641000+08:00","text":"因為你們這個不用會銜司法院，所以你們現在才看到司法院的意見。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:02.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:13.105000+08:00","text":"我也仔細地看了司法院的意見，裡面其實對這部草案的幾個滿核心的關鍵問題提出了很核心的挑戰，針對這部分我覺得你們今天要作個回應。","quality":0.729},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:13.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:30.116000+08:00","text":"因為今天我們只進行詢答，不會進行逐條，未來進行逐條之前，我覺得對於司法院所提出的這幾個問題，我們必須討論跟處理。沒錯。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:30.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:56:47.361000+08:00","text":"不然到時候進入逐條，你要本院委員支持這個草案，可能在幾個關鍵的節點上會產生很大的疑慮，尤其是司法院提到在實質上有些已經是違反憲法的層次了，這部分……","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:56:50.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:07.266000+08:00","text":"我大概綜合性地做兩點報告，第一點，剛剛也有委員談到這個事情，我剛剛也提到，我們會用書面的方式就司法院提到的議題逐點表達我們的意見給委員會，大方向大概是這樣，在此先做這樣的說明。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:07.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:18.241000+08:00","text":"我現在大概就針對幾個我個人認為一定要說明清楚，不然很難獲得立法上面支持的幾個點跟你請教。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:18.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:39.234000+08:00","text":"我看今天司法院是由行政訴訟及懲戒廳的何法官出席，我想何法官對司法院的這個意見應該是相當清楚，今天才能代表司法院來，很抱歉，我就請何法官上來，施部長也留步，我們就是要討論這幾個問題。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:39.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:40.234000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:39.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:57:56.883000+08:00","text":"第一個，首先針對修正條文第十六條第一項第二款，過去原本我們……這是有關功過獎懲的部分，我們把獎勵跟懲處分開來，第十六條就變成是專論懲處的。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:57:57.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:01.645000+08:00","text":"針對違反服務法令或紀律行為的部分，我們在第一項第二款有個「降敘一級」的新增規定。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:01.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:27.430000+08:00","text":"有關降敘一級的這個規定，這部分司法院是不是能夠講一下，有關降敘一級，你們在這個書面報告裡提出的意見？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:28.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:43.530000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為司法院大法官釋字第483號解釋曾經明確解釋，關於公務員的降級或減俸，當時大法官認為這是必須經過公務員懲戒機關，也就是目前的懲戒法院，依法定程序審議決定。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:43.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:50.854000+08:00","text":"如果不是依照這個程序審議決定，就不得降級或減俸，大法官當時認為這是憲法上服公職權利所受的制度性保障。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:51.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:58:52.295000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:58:52.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:00.363000+08:00","text":"我再請施部長回答一下，有關「降敘一級」，剛剛司法院的意見是認為這個在大法官會議已經解釋了，這是專屬於司法權的。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:00.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:12.679000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們內部有討論過，因為作出第483號解釋那時候的考績法根本還沒有「降敘一級」的規定，我們認為只要在立法政策上把它放上去，事實上就沒有這個問題。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:14.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:16.517000+08:00","text":"在你們的立法理由……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:17.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:28.669000+08:00","text":"在解釋之前，事實上考績法也沒有「降敘一級」的這種概念，我們認為只要符合法律保障的程序，我們把它放在法律裡面，由立法院授權……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:28.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:37.978000+08:00","text":"你放在法律裡面，但是大法官會議的解釋是這是屬於懲戒法院，也就是屬於司法權才能做的……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:38.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:47.685000+08:00","text":"我想大法官的解釋要回到懲戒跟懲處最上位的區分，我們認為這次是用行政懲處的方式來處理這個問題。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:50.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:51.871000+08:00","text":"「降敘」是行政懲處嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:51.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:52.871000+08:00","text":"請司法院講一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:51.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T09:59:57.699000+08:00","text":"我們認為用法律的方式把行政懲處的「降敘一級」加進來，讓機關能針對不同類型的……","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T09:59:59.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:07.452000+08:00","text":"爭議之處是司法院認為「降敘」不能用行政懲處來做，這是專屬於司法權的，是司法懲戒法院才可以做的。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:08.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:25.219000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為所謂的「制度性保障」在憲法上是屬於憲法層級的程序保障，所以當時大法官應該是認為，公務員要被降級或減俸必須要經過一定的程序，大法官講的這個程序就是公務員懲戒機關依法定程序審議。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:25.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:34.025000+08:00","text":"所以當時大法官說這是制度性保障，制度性保障是憲法層級的保障，並不是因為哪個法律怎麼定就可以隨意去修改的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:35.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:43.256000+08:00","text":"大法官釋字第483號解釋目前也沒有被後面的任何解釋或是憲法判決給推翻過，所以目前它仍然是有效的解釋，依照憲法訴訟法的規定……","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:43.256000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:00:45.707000+08:00","text":"謝謝何法官。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:00:45.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:06.281000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分我認為施部長剛剛的解釋有一點……你認為降敘也屬於行政處分，但是依照司法院的意見，認為減俸或是降敘都是屬於司法權，都是懲戒法院才能做的。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:06.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:27.823000+08:00","text":"所以你現在在這裡新增降敘一級，未來在立法上面，這會有違憲的疑慮，即使我們立法院支持你通過了，如果有人因為這樣降敘，送憲法法庭，依照司法院意見是有可能作違憲判決的。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:34.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:56.447000+08:00","text":"你們在立法理由裡面提到，第483號解釋曾揭示，非經懲戒程序，不得為降級處分；後面你們提到舉重以明輕之原則，你的意思就是免職是屬於行政機關的專屬權力，而降敘比免職還輕，所以……你們的舉重以明輕是這個意思，對不對？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:56.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:57.904000+08:00","text":"沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:57.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:02:16.775000+08:00","text":"對，你的解釋就是免職是屬於行政權的核心權力，免職都已經是核心權力了，所以降敘應該也是屬於行政權，但是司法院的看法完全不同，他認為減俸跟降敘就是必須經過懲戒法院的程序，這是專屬於司法權，他認為這是在憲法裡面的規定。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:02:18.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:02:30.122000+08:00","text":"有關這個部分，在我們進入逐條之前，我認為這部分如果不解決，這一條有關降敘處分的規定，到時候可能會有很大的爭議。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:02:30.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:15.281000+08:00","text":"接著，有關於今天修正案的第二十條，司法院在這一條也非常、非常有意見，在第二十條第四項，你們規定同一違失行為如果已經作行政處分，就排除掉移送懲戒，用行政處分來排除司法權的移送懲戒，移送懲戒就是交由監察院或是懲戒法院來處理；第五項是規定在懲戒法院審理當中，就必須要停止程序，包括救濟程序都要停止。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:17.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:27.983000+08:00","text":"對於第二十條的這兩個部分，司法院有非常大的意見，是不是先請何法官就同一違失行為不再移送懲戒的部分說一下你們司法院的看法？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:29.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:34.224000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個部分我們司法院確實是有蠻大的意見，詳細內容當然在書面。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:34.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:51.349000+08:00","text":"不過我提出一個議題，最近大家如果看到新聞，曾經有公務員被考績法免職之後，因為考績法的免職目前是沒有禁止再任效果的，但如果是被懲戒法院判決免職的話，原則上是終身禁止再任公務員，這位……","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:51.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:52.650000+08:00","text":"何法官，你講的是第十一條的問題。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:54.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:02.597000+08:00","text":"我在這邊提的是，他封阻會造成一個問題，他如果被考績法免職，就算依照現在的草案，經過一定時間之後都還是可以再任的。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:02.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:04.959000+08:00","text":"他兩年後可以再任。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:04.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:25.796000+08:00","text":"對，所以現在變成如果這個公務員有重大違失，結果被機關用考績法免職之後，就沒辦法移送懲戒了，他就不會被懲戒法院判決免職，這樣的結果就變成這個公務員在一定期間經過之後就可以再任了，本來如果到懲戒法院被判決免職，他是終身不得再任公務員，所以我覺得這樣的法律效果是沒有辦法取代司法懲戒的。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:25.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:26.796000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:25.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:29.239000+08:00","text":"部長，你知道司法院講的意思嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:29.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:29.780000+08:00","text":"我當然知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:30.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:31.021000+08:00","text":"你說明一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:31.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:39.364000+08:00","text":"我覺得這種講法，即使案子送到公懲會，公懲會是不是一定會給予更重的免除職務的判……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:39.364000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:40.364000+08:00","text":"不是，不是輕重的問題，而是免職本身的效果，免職本身的效果在……","quality":0.231},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:40.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:41.567000+08:00","text":"我們的免職效果是兩年以後不能再任，當這個案子送到……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:41.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:05:21.065000+08:00","text":"但是在公務人員任用法裡面是永久的消極資格，如果是依照公務人員任用法免職的，終身都不能再任，但是按照考績法免職的，兩年後可以再任，而偏偏你們是按照考績法免職兩年的條件，有很多都是非常重大的罪，如叛國等等重大罪刑，而重大罪刑的兩年後可以再任，但是按照公務人員任用法免職的終身不能再任。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:05:22.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:05:57.677000+08:00","text":"我理解，委員，我的意思是我們根據考績法，把他免職以後，因為我們基於不要製造……如果同樣一個事由送到公懲會，第一個，公懲會通常每個案件的處理時間都很久，我們要強調的是快速；第二個，同一個事由送到公懲會，公懲會未必一定會判他終身免職，也有可能是撤職，我們的規定就是兩年內不得再任用，而公懲會的撤職最長是五年，過去實務上的慣例大概是兩到三年。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:05:58.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:11.746000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，如果用這套邏輯來講應該是這樣，至於適不適合直接在任用法裡面講說哪些重大事由是不是就應該要終身免職，這是另外一個立法政策的問題。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:11.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:32.492000+08:00","text":"沒有，依據公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第六款的規定，曾受免除職務懲戒處分者係不得任用公務人員之永久消極資格，不因時間經過而消滅，所以按照這一條的免職，它的時效是永遠不得再任。","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:32.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:03.381000+08:00","text":"但是如果依據考績法，用行政懲處、用這一條，把他排除掉送懲戒，你說因為已經處分了，就不送懲戒，你就排除掉在司法上依據公務人員任用法終身不得任用的限制了，這是第一個。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:03.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:15.031000+08:00","text":"我們也不用講到免職，但你們這個立法就是用行政懲處封阻掉司法的懲戒。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:17.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:25.661000+08:00","text":"我們沒有封阻，我們是說同一個事由如果行政已經作出懲處了、已經確定了，就不要再往下……","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:26.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:27.442000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有，這個就是問題啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:28.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:50.406000+08:00","text":"你行政已經懲處了，你就封阻掉他未來……就不再送司法的懲戒，這樣會造成一個結果，例如有關霸凌或者是其他的案件，就趕快在他被移送懲戒之前先作行政處分，那就不得再送懲戒了。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:50.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:02.131000+08:00","text":"我要跟委員報告的是，社會上非常期待，只要公務人員有重大違失的事情，行政機關就是要立即做處理，我想委員應該也支持這樣的作法，所以既然行政機關已經作出處分，就……","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:02.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:08.714000+08:00","text":"對，這個我支持，我的意思是說你們作了行政懲處之後，為什麼要排除掉他的移送？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:08.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:18.323000+08:00","text":"因為如果再往後面去，我們不曉得後面的……第一個，他時間會拖很久，處理一個個案，依據我們最近看到的資料，大概要快一年。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:18.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:27.671000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，時效的部分，行政可以很快地作行政處分，但是為什麼作了行政處分之後就不能夠再移送懲戒了呢？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:27.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:28.671000+08:00","text":"為什麼要排除？","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:27.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:38.559000+08:00","text":"我覺得這是同一個事由，不要有兩個處分，事實上在憲判字第9號裡面大概是說這個程序面相關的事情，是不是應該要去了解一下，而我們是用這個方式來避免這種事情。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:38.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:39.039000+08:00","text":"請司法院表達一下意見，對於我剛剛的講法跟施部長的講法。","quality":0.52},{"speaker":"何法官効鋼","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:44.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:16.465000+08:00","text":"確實，其實目前的限制就是這樣，行政機關本來就可以先依考績法作考績法的懲處，但是目前的限制並不排除作完懲處之後，同時將案件移付懲戒，目前的規定是如果後續懲戒法院作出懲戒判決之後，有作懲戒處分，原本前面的懲處會失效，現在的做法其實並不會有剛剛施部長講的沒辦法立即處理的問題，因為依照現在的規定，行政機關跑完行政懲處的流程之後，就可以作懲處的免職了。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:16.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:17.106000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:17.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:18.666000+08:00","text":"請施部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:18.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:53.849000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個絕對是立法政策的問題，我提出一個討論，就是社會上期待我們儘快處理這個事情，處理完以後就讓它結束了，就不要再往後面的程序走、pending在那裡，老實說懲戒法案最重的處罰，也就是終身免職的處分，不管是什麼案件，我想比例應該是很低、很低，而我們這一次把行政懲處的概念，讓行政機關有可以回應社會的一個機制，能夠馬上處理，我覺得這才是應該要走的方式。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:54.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:58.212000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到像什麼內亂、外患這種東西，那個在任用法就明文禁止了。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:59.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:05.075000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，施部長，現在討論的重點是，為什麼你們修法要增訂這一條？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:05.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:09.236000+08:00","text":"也就是作了行政處分之後，要排除掉送司法懲戒？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:10.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:12.797000+08:00","text":"我還是一樣要說，最重要的是行政紀律的貫徹。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:15.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:15.418000+08:00","text":"照現行是一樣的啊！","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:16.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:19.160000+08:00","text":"剛剛司法院講現行制度也可以作行政懲處，同時移送司法院懲戒。","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:19.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:21.921000+08:00","text":"因為我們不曉得後面會發生什麼事。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:22.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:23.242000+08:00","text":"發生什麼事是司法權……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:23.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:25.223000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得對公務同仁來講……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:25.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:28.965000+08:00","text":"行政權可以先作處分，但是後續司法權作什麼樣的判決，我們可以再來……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:29.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:37.570000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們的態度是行政權作了處分之後，公務同仁就進入到他的救濟程序。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:38.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:39.091000+08:00","text":"對不起，因為時間的關係。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:40.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:26.631000+08:00","text":"司法院引用了一個非常重量級的叫做憲法第七十七條，司法院認為公務員的懲戒是專屬於司法權的，簡單講就是，他認為你用行政懲處排除掉後續的司法懲戒，他們認為這就違憲了，所以未來如果有這樣的問題，一樣，未來再送憲法法庭的時候，你這條同樣有可能會被判決為違憲，這是司法院所提出來的警示，這部分我認為一樣在逐條之前，你們必須要解釋清楚，不然說實在的，連我都還蠻贊同司法院的意見，我認為司法院針對憲法的意見邏輯非常清楚。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:30.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:58.163000+08:00","text":"最後一點點時間，有關於你們在第十七條提到，經檢察官提起公訴，加上機關認定，你們就可以進行一次記兩大過處分，予以免職，對此司法院也非常有意見，認為為什麼經檢察官起訴、機關認定，他還沒有經司法作最後的判決，你們就可以進行免職？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:58.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:01.884000+08:00","text":"他們認為這就是違反了正當程序中的無罪推定和比例原則。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:03.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:06.846000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，現行考績法裡面就有類似的規定了。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:07.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:35.782000+08:00","text":"好，這部分我想逐條的時候，我們再來進行討論，不過我希望司法院的意見，劉建忻秘書長，我個人認為司法院意見講得蠻清楚的，不是反對你們修法，而是你們修法中有這幾個點，司法院認為非常有疑慮，本席也認為在法律上面有一些疑義，未來在逐條審查的時候可能會遇到問題。謝謝。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:36.282000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:38.853429+08:00","text":"接下來請林倩綺委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":392,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時54分）主席，請施部長。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：好，請施部長。"],["施部長能傑：沈委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：施部長早。不曉得部長有沒有印象，3月19日司法院進行立法計畫跟業務報告的時候，當時本席就針對考績法的問題跟施部長請教。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：那個時候最主要當然是針對公共政策網路參與平台的某個民間提案，裡面主要有幾個重點，大概就是甲等、乙等這些比例的規定，另外有關評量的機制，再來就是考評、評核的責任，大概就是這幾點。我看這次在5月15日你們終於推出了考績法的修正草案，當時我就問這個考績法什麼時候要修？當時部長說會很快地送進立法院，你們5月15日送進來，今天才開這個會。我看了你們送進來的草案，基本上像網路政策平台或民間大家所關心的，也就是我剛剛提的這幾個問題，你們都在這個修正草案中作出回應，而且基本上也都是往這個方向在修正，這個部分我要先給你們肯定。但是我現在要請教部長的是，不曉得部長有沒有看到今天司法院的書面報告？"],["施部長能傑：我有看到。"],["沈委員發惠：有看到司法院的書面報告？"],["施部長能傑：對，昨天晚上同仁有給我看一下。"],["沈委員發惠：因為你們這個不用會銜司法院，所以你們現在才看到司法院的意見。我也仔細地看了司法院的意見，裡面其實對這部草案的幾個滿核心的關鍵問題提出了很核心的挑戰，針對這部分我覺得你們今天要作個回應。因為今天我們只進行詢答，不會進行逐條，未來進行逐條之前，我覺得對於司法院所提出的這幾個問題，我們必須討論跟處理。"],["施部長能傑：沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：不然到時候進入逐條，你要本院委員支持這個草案，可能在幾個關鍵的節點上會產生很大的疑慮，尤其是司法院提到在實質上有些已經是違反憲法的層次了，這部分……"],["施部長能傑：我大概綜合性地做兩點報告，第一點，剛剛也有委員談到這個事情，我剛剛也提到，我們會用書面的方式就司法院提到的議題逐點表達我們的意見給委員會，大方向大概是這樣，在此先做這樣的說明。"],["沈委員發惠：我現在大概就針對幾個我個人認為一定要說明清楚，不然很難獲得立法上面支持的幾個點跟你請教。我看今天司法院是由行政訴訟及懲戒廳的何法官出席，我想何法官對司法院的這個意見應該是相當清楚，今天才能代表司法院來，很抱歉，我就請何法官上來，施部長也留步，我們就是要討論這幾個問題。"],["何法官効鋼：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：第一個，首先針對修正條文第十六條第一項第二款，過去原本我們……這是有關功過獎懲的部分，我們把獎勵跟懲處分開來，第十六條就變成是專論懲處的。針對違反服務法令或紀律行為的部分，我們在第一項第二款有個「降敘一級」的新增規定。有關降敘一級的這個規定，這部分司法院是不是能夠講一下，有關降敘一級，你們在這個書面報告裡提出的意見？"],["何法官効鋼：跟委員報告，因為司法院大法官釋字第483號解釋曾經明確解釋，關於公務員的降級或減俸，當時大法官認為這是必須經過公務員懲戒機關，也就是目前的懲戒法院，依法定程序審議決定。如果不是依照這個程序審議決定，就不得降級或減俸，大法官當時認為這是憲法上服公職權利所受的制度性保障。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。我再請施部長回答一下，有關「降敘一級」，剛剛司法院的意見是認為這個在大法官會議已經解釋了，這是專屬於司法權的。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我們內部有討論過，因為作出第483號解釋那時候的考績法根本還沒有「降敘一級」的規定，我們認為只要在立法政策上把它放上去，事實上就沒有這個問題。"],["沈委員發惠：在你們的立法理由……"],["施部長能傑：在解釋之前，事實上考績法也沒有「降敘一級」的這種概念，我們認為只要符合法律保障的程序，我們把它放在法律裡面，由立法院授權……"],["沈委員發惠：你放在法律裡面，但是大法官會議的解釋是這是屬於懲戒法院，也就是屬於司法權才能做的……"],["施部長能傑：我想大法官的解釋要回到懲戒跟懲處最上位的區分，我們認為這次是用行政懲處的方式來處理這個問題。"],["沈委員發惠：「降敘」是行政懲處嗎？請司法院講一下。"],["施部長能傑：我們認為用法律的方式把行政懲處的「降敘一級」加進來，讓機關能針對不同類型的……"],["沈委員發惠：爭議之處是司法院認為「降敘」不能用行政懲處來做，這是專屬於司法權的，是司法懲戒法院才可以做的。"],["何法官効鋼：跟委員報告，因為所謂的「制度性保障」在憲法上是屬於憲法層級的程序保障，所以當時大法官應該是認為，公務員要被降級或減俸必須要經過一定的程序，大法官講的這個程序就是公務員懲戒機關依法定程序審議。所以當時大法官說這是制度性保障，制度性保障是憲法層級的保障，並不是因為哪個法律怎麼定就可以隨意去修改的。","大法官釋字第483號解釋目前也沒有被後面的任何解釋或是憲法判決給推翻過，所以目前它仍然是有效的解釋，依照憲法訴訟法的規定……"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝何法官。所以這個部分我認為施部長剛剛的解釋有一點……你認為降敘也屬於行政處分，但是依照司法院的意見，認為減俸或是降敘都是屬於司法權，都是懲戒法院才能做的。所以你現在在這裡新增降敘一級，未來在立法上面，這會有違憲的疑慮，即使我們立法院支持你通過了，如果有人因為這樣降敘，送憲法法庭，依照司法院意見是有可能作違憲判決的。","你們在立法理由裡面提到，第483號解釋曾揭示，非經懲戒程序，不得為降級處分；後面你們提到舉重以明輕之原則，你的意思就是免職是屬於行政機關的專屬權力，而降敘比免職還輕，所以……你們的舉重以明輕是這個意思，對不對？"],["施部長能傑：沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：對，你的解釋就是免職是屬於行政權的核心權力，免職都已經是核心權力了，所以降敘應該也是屬於行政權，但是司法院的看法完全不同，他認為減俸跟降敘就是必須經過懲戒法院的程序，這是專屬於司法權，他認為這是在憲法裡面的規定。有關這個部分，在我們進入逐條之前，我認為這部分如果不解決，這一條有關降敘處分的規定，到時候可能會有很大的爭議。","接著，有關於今天修正案的第二十條，司法院在這一條也非常、非常有意見，在第二十條第四項，你們規定同一違失行為如果已經作行政處分，就排除掉移送懲戒，用行政處分來排除司法權的移送懲戒，移送懲戒就是交由監察院或是懲戒法院來處理；第五項是規定在懲戒法院審理當中，就必須要停止程序，包括救濟程序都要停止。對於第二十條的這兩個部分，司法院有非常大的意見，是不是先請何法官就同一違失行為不再移送懲戒的部分說一下你們司法院的看法？"],["何法官効鋼：跟委員報告，這個部分我們司法院確實是有蠻大的意見，詳細內容當然在書面。不過我提出一個議題，最近大家如果看到新聞，曾經有公務員被考績法免職之後，因為考績法的免職目前是沒有禁止再任效果的，但如果是被懲戒法院判決免職的話，原則上是終身禁止再任公務員，這位……"],["沈委員發惠：何法官，你講的是第十一條的問題。"],["何法官効鋼：我在這邊提的是，他封阻會造成一個問題，他如果被考績法免職，就算依照現在的草案，經過一定時間之後都還是可以再任的。"],["沈委員發惠：他兩年後可以再任。"],["何法官効鋼：對，所以現在變成如果這個公務員有重大違失，結果被機關用考績法免職之後，就沒辦法移送懲戒了，他就不會被懲戒法院判決免職，這樣的結果就變成這個公務員在一定期間經過之後就可以再任了，本來如果到懲戒法院被判決免職，他是終身不得再任公務員，所以我覺得這樣的法律效果是沒有辦法取代司法懲戒的。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。部長，你知道司法院講的意思嗎？"],["施部長能傑：我當然知道。"],["沈委員發惠：你說明一下。"],["施部長能傑：我覺得這種講法，即使案子送到公懲會，公懲會是不是一定會給予更重的免除職務的判……"],["沈委員發惠：不是，不是輕重的問題，而是免職本身的效果，免職本身的效果在……"],["施部長能傑：我們的免職效果是兩年以後不能再任，當這個案子送到……"],["沈委員發惠：但是在公務人員任用法裡面是永久的消極資格，如果是依照公務人員任用法免職的，終身都不能再任，但是按照考績法免職的，兩年後可以再任，而偏偏你們是按照考績法免職兩年的條件，有很多都是非常重大的罪，如叛國等等重大罪刑，而重大罪刑的兩年後可以再任，但是按照公務人員任用法免職的終身不能再任。"],["施部長能傑：我理解，委員，我的意思是我們根據考績法，把他免職以後，因為我們基於不要製造……如果同樣一個事由送到公懲會，第一個，公懲會通常每個案件的處理時間都很久，我們要強調的是快速；第二個，同一個事由送到公懲會，公懲會未必一定會判他終身免職，也有可能是撤職，我們的規定就是兩年內不得再任用，而公懲會的撤職最長是五年，過去實務上的慣例大概是兩到三年。我的意思是，如果用這套邏輯來講應該是這樣，至於適不適合直接在任用法裡面講說哪些重大事由是不是就應該要終身免職，這是另外一個立法政策的問題。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，依據公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項第六款的規定，曾受免除職務懲戒處分者係不得任用公務人員之永久消極資格，不因時間經過而消滅，所以按照這一條的免職，它的時效是永遠不得再任。但是如果依據考績法，用行政懲處、用這一條，把他排除掉送懲戒，你說因為已經處分了，就不送懲戒，你就排除掉在司法上依據公務人員任用法終身不得任用的限制了，這是第一個。我們也不用講到免職，但你們這個立法就是用行政懲處封阻掉司法的懲戒。"],["施部長能傑：我們沒有封阻，我們是說同一個事由如果行政已經作出懲處了、已經確定了，就不要再往下……"],["沈委員發惠：沒有、沒有、沒有，這個就是問題啊！你行政已經懲處了，你就封阻掉他未來……就不再送司法的懲戒，這樣會造成一個結果，例如有關霸凌或者是其他的案件，就趕快在他被移送懲戒之前先作行政處分，那就不得再送懲戒了。"],["施部長能傑：我要跟委員報告的是，社會上非常期待，只要公務人員有重大違失的事情，行政機關就是要立即做處理，我想委員應該也支持這樣的作法，所以既然行政機關已經作出處分，就……"],["沈委員發惠：對，這個我支持，我的意思是說你們作了行政懲處之後，為什麼要排除掉他的移送？"],["施部長能傑：因為如果再往後面去，我們不曉得後面的……第一個，他時間會拖很久，處理一個個案，依據我們最近看到的資料，大概要快一年。"],["沈委員發惠：我的意思是，時效的部分，行政可以很快地作行政處分，但是為什麼作了行政處分之後就不能夠再移送懲戒了呢？為什麼要排除？"],["施部長能傑：我覺得這是同一個事由，不要有兩個處分，事實上在憲判字第9號裡面大概是說這個程序面相關的事情，是不是應該要去了解一下，而我們是用這個方式來避免這種事情。"],["沈委員發惠：請司法院表達一下意見，對於我剛剛的講法跟施部長的講法。"],["何法官効鋼：確實，其實目前的限制就是這樣，行政機關本來就可以先依考績法作考績法的懲處，但是目前的限制並不排除作完懲處之後，同時將案件移付懲戒，目前的規定是如果後續懲戒法院作出懲戒判決之後，有作懲戒處分，原本前面的懲處會失效，現在的做法其實並不會有剛剛施部長講的沒辦法立即處理的問題，因為依照現在的規定，行政機關跑完行政懲處的流程之後，就可以作懲處的免職了。"],["沈委員發惠：好，謝謝。請施部長。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，這個絕對是立法政策的問題，我提出一個討論，就是社會上期待我們儘快處理這個事情，處理完以後就讓它結束了，就不要再往後面的程序走、pending在那裡，老實說懲戒法案最重的處罰，也就是終身免職的處分，不管是什麼案件，我想比例應該是很低、很低，而我們這一次把行政懲處的概念，讓行政機關有可以回應社會的一個機制，能夠馬上處理，我覺得這才是應該要走的方式。剛剛委員提到像什麼內亂、外患這種東西，那個在任用法就明文禁止了。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有、沒有，施部長，現在討論的重點是，為什麼你們修法要增訂這一條？也就是作了行政處分之後，要排除掉送司法懲戒？"],["施部長能傑：我還是一樣要說，最重要的是行政紀律的貫徹。"],["沈委員發惠：照現行是一樣的啊！剛剛司法院講現行制度也可以作行政懲處，同時移送司法院懲戒。"],["施部長能傑：因為我們不曉得後面會發生什麼事。"],["沈委員發惠：發生什麼事是司法權……"],["施部長能傑：但是我覺得對公務同仁來講……"],["沈委員發惠：行政權可以先作處分，但是後續司法權作什麼樣的判決，我們可以再來……"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，我們的態度是行政權作了處分之後，公務同仁就進入到他的救濟程序。"],["沈委員發惠：對不起，因為時間的關係。司法院引用了一個非常重量級的叫做憲法第七十七條，司法院認為公務員的懲戒是專屬於司法權的，簡單講就是，他認為你用行政懲處排除掉後續的司法懲戒，他們認為這就違憲了，所以未來如果有這樣的問題，一樣，未來再送憲法法庭的時候，你這條同樣有可能會被判決為違憲，這是司法院所提出來的警示，這部分我認為一樣在逐條之前，你們必須要解釋清楚，不然說實在的，連我都還蠻贊同司法院的意見，我認為司法院針對憲法的意見邏輯非常清楚。","最後一點點時間，有關於你們在第十七條提到，經檢察官提起公訴，加上機關認定，你們就可以進行一次記兩大過處分，予以免職，對此司法院也非常有意見，認為為什麼經檢察官起訴、機關認定，他還沒有經司法作最後的判決，你們就可以進行免職？他們認為這就是違反了正當程序中的無罪推定和比例原則。"],["施部長能傑：我跟委員報告，現行考績法裡面就有類似的規定了。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這部分我想逐條的時候，我們再來進行討論，不過我希望司法院的意見，劉建忻秘書長，我個人認為司法院意見講得蠻清楚的，不是反對你們修法，而是你們修法中有這幾個點，司法院認為非常有疑慮，本席也認為在法律上面有一些疑義，未來在逐條審查的時候可能會遇到問題。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-22","speakers":["莊瑞雄","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張雅琳","沈發惠","林倩綺","范雲","許忠信","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","林德福","許宇甄","傅崐萁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155702_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}