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接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢好 謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長跟國發會主委部長 主委讓他坐著對 坐著 坐著 OK 那法務部法務部 謝謝楊委員好好"},{"start":20.878,"end":36.459,"text":"部長今天主席安排了補助審查機制與投資案的一個審查程序中之利益衝突迴避規範檢討的一個詢答本席是站在協助國家"},{"start":38.081,"end":48.904,"text":"把關以及守護納稅人的權益的一個角度我們來提出了一個目前正處於一個重大財務與經營運風險集在各部會共同來釐清的一個關鍵案個案也就是在民國109年7月份的時候呢國發會直接投資了世豐電力股份有限公司那你當時是從109年5月份到"},{"start":66.55,"end":68.271,"text":"513年的5月份你是擔任國發會的主委那當時參與了世豐的電力的這個現金這個增資的這個部分那當時我們投下的呢也就是5.52億"},{"start":82.823,"end":87.764,"text":"持股的比例是20%當時你是以國防會主委那現在你是經濟部部長那這個面對於牽扯到整個綠能產業的發展還有地方權益以及國家資產保全的一個指標案件那我們更應該要以更嚴謹以及中性的這個標準來檢視是否存在著"},{"start":107.608,"end":124.945,"text":"制度性的風險以及利益衝突的一個漏洞所以因此本席要首先請教部長您在當時擔任主委的任內你參與了這個投資案那現在正面臨的資產保全的重大"},{"start":125.706,"end":131.829,"text":"考驗 那經濟部跟國防會呢國防會現在的主委坐在後面 你們兩位是不是已經做好了合規與這個避險的一個準備因為本席必須要善意的提醒部長根據地方發展的大四季裡頭 釋放在1996年通過了環評之後 他長期面臨到原住民部落的雨環"},{"start":152.961,"end":154.423,"text":"這個環團的一個程序抗爭纏送這個訴訟那外界是高度的在看在質疑那為什麼會在黑歷史纏訴這個纏送多年的這個案件當中在2019年"},{"start":170.68,"end":192.579,"text":"由孫威集團來收購之後呢那隔年我們的國防會呢火速的點頭來做評估而且進場投資所以這在整個審查機制的獨立性跟利益衝突的迴避上是不是已經完整的具備了客觀的社會說服力 請教部長因為這個案子啊"},{"start":196.345,"end":219.082,"text":"它第一個它是個案第二個它是現金增資案理論上它是不會上到那個管理會國發基金管理會我主持的會議裡面那所以說這個案子就是等於是在全職辦理在國發基金裡面它就合調了所以本席就知道你一定會這麼回答所以我要把這個問題提出來給你接下來本席要請問的"},{"start":222.987,"end":246.562,"text":"有關於國家整個資產是不是面臨的一個減損的一個重大財務危機重大財務危機那麼根據最新的財務揭露世豐它的實收的資本額是23億國防部我們當時投資的是5.52億但是現在傳出該公司的淨值只剩下5億"},{"start":248.342,"end":265.454,"text":"那如果按照20%的比例來計算 我們目前帳面的價值可能只剩下1億那更令人擔憂的是 在潛在的一個退場機制去年7月份的時候 石破電力通過了授權 董事會來辦理32.8億的融資"},{"start":271.738,"end":290.486,"text":"並進行工程的發包但是到今年為止我們看到外界與市場的觀察顯現出現場的工程幾乎是停滯當中更反常的是他公司的人員由原先居文由原先的25人現在只剩下5人"},{"start":291.767,"end":317.214,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下一間資本額23億進行大額的一個融資的開發公司如果營業人員精簡到純如外界所說的精簡到只剩下5人23億資本額的公司如果精簡到只剩下5個員工那請問這在公司的治理跟工程的履歷上是常態嗎是常態嗎還是一個警訊 請教部長"},{"start":322.401,"end":333.087,"text":"現在的營運狀況我已經不調節我已經離開這個國發會好 國貿會主委請你回答所以是不是國貿會主委執密來說明一下國貿會主委國貿基金的執密是執密先嗎還是你先回答吧好"},{"start":339.704,"end":351.453,"text":"就委員的問題可能有一個面向就是說譬如說像我們以往的投資譬如說像藥滑藥之前虧損很大第一個就是說投資這個部分其實在市場上面會有漲跌但我們會持續的觀察不會說"},{"start":359.378,"end":364.666,"text":"某一陣子下來之後我們就趕快出清那個股票或儲本他不會我們不會這樣做我們會看比較長期的請教目前市場的訊息您瞭解嗎市場訊息我是不是可以請知名請說說明"},{"start":373.766,"end":400.076,"text":"是跟委員報告世豐電力的這一個案子目前確實碰到一些困境因為他投資是有賺有賠那他真正要獲利一定是小水利發電開始發電了賣電力出來才能夠這個開始有這個營收進來那他的過程當中跟原住民的這個協調環評的這個非常清楚就針對剛剛本席所提問的是不是目前有這樣的現象因為市場都一直在傳"},{"start":402.871,"end":421.857,"text":"因為我們是20%我們是20%的這股權我們持續在關注剛剛委員關切的像公司治理舉個例子來講最近深威能源碰到了這個因為深威入主之後本來也想說有這個資金可以來持續開發但是後來深威又碰到一些問題"},{"start":422.557,"end":439.532,"text":"所以現在變成說工程上面會有一部分的延宕是在這一邊那經營層確實有碰到一些這樣的問題就是公司治理這個部分我們持續在所以你了解這個是屬實這個現象目前目前好接下來我要請問綠營的市場我們傳出的這些訊息那更有成員身為的董事會的成員據傳又有說對外尋找買家"},{"start":449.6,"end":465.248,"text":"準備要出脫這個股權甚至可能要進行清算有沒有這回事啊這是不是一個風險的一個警訊跟委員報告就是說以常態性來講一個企業在發展的過程當中你知道目前有沒有這個現象"},{"start":466.408,"end":490.637,"text":"因為市場一直在謠傳我們也不希望讓社會來恐慌我們是一個持股20%國家的單位到底有沒有這回事是 我跟委員報告現在最大股東是生威能源他碰到財務上面的問題確實有在尋找各種不同的資金進駐至於進駐的比例是多少會不會變成更大的股東這個是動態性的發展"},{"start":492.738,"end":521.363,"text":"動態性的發展所以你們知道確實是有這個問題因為國發會呢我們主要是希望這些錢都是人民的納稅錢是公共的資金我們深怕會不會面臨到球場無門的這個階段投資石沉大海因為國發會的基金在投資是最重要的是希望讓我們的產業能夠來發展能夠來發展那既然子敏剛才說了本席剛剛所說的"},{"start":521.883,"end":544.044,"text":"社會 市場 產業界所提出的這些面向確實是有在確實是有的情況之下我們希望國發會的投資是為了促進產業創新它絕對是不能在缺乏監督的風險之下淪為特定財團的一個套現的一個擔保工具"},{"start":544.725,"end":558.167,"text":"是 這個我們態度是一致的好 所以在這樣的情況之下我相信這個問題除了財務跟治理風險它包括了社會責任跟治安的安全因為我們要檢視在113年的4月份裡頭在豐平溪工作的當中無姓的測量員發生了這個公安事件也經過了勞動部那麼也開出了法單也公布了負責任的姓名這一次一個牽扯到地方諮商"},{"start":573.49,"end":577.055,"text":"同意的一個爭議以及發生重大公安那今天包括的內部剛剛你也承認了他們內部異常的從25個人是不是屬實到5人以及所有的"},{"start":590.053,"end":602.864,"text":"這個數字我們大額的增額的時候那到底這些錢流向到哪裡工程的進度到底目前是如何這是社會非常期待看到真正的答案是什麼所以因此呢我本期必須要以"},{"start":608.408,"end":633.107,"text":"為人民把關的這個立場我要提出幾點請國發會跟這個法務部跟經濟部必須要提出這個資料出來也就是第一個啟動專案合規的一個審查經濟部跟國發部到底目前是否便利目前他的資產淨值他的大額融資的去向以及工程的進度究竟是如何必須要跨部會去"},{"start":634.81,"end":640.613,"text":"監視出來這第一個第二個評估資產保全的一個因應因為你也說過了都在找買家那準備如果是真的準備要出脫甚至變賣股權的這個風險訊號已經產生的時候那麼我們國發會你到底要怎麼樣去研擬你的資產保全的一個因應方案以防到時候我們求助無門那第三個也就是房屋鋪"},{"start":663.425,"end":686.293,"text":"在相關跨部會的當中相關的責任你必須要針對大額的一個這個預算融資的部分到底它去向是在哪裡那麼在違反常態這麼大的一個公司融資這麼多的金額為什麼人員反而是降低到個位數那這個整個在公司的一個治理"},{"start":687.421,"end":691.544,"text":"或許有人會害怕是不是會有掏空的這個現象以上這三點我相信財務風險評估跟資產保全的因應是我們國發會法務部以及經濟部必須要提出所以我們充分理性的討論那麼也知道這是一個訊息已經出來了那麼我們希望我們身為"},{"start":712.1,"end":734.916,"text":"身為20%的持股者而且我們派駐的人員更應當要充分的瞭解而不是剛剛部長所說的他沒有到我這裡說我偷偷不知道因為這一些錢都是人民的納稅錢公共資產所以我希望在兩個禮拜內請將本席剛剛所提出的這三項的這個內容請提出說明可以嗎好加油好 謝謝委員"},{"start":741.86,"end":741.885,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:07.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:10.611000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長跟國發會主委。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:11.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:13.092000+08:00","text":"請部長、主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:15.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:16.133000+08:00","text":"還要請法務部。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:18.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:18.894000+08:00","text":"請法務部。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:20.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:21.415000+08:00","text":"楊委員好。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:22.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:01:48.904000+08:00","text":"部長，今天主席安排了「補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」的詢答，本席是站在協助國家把關以及守護納稅人權益的角度，提出了一個目前正處於重大財務與營運風險的個案，期待各部會共同來釐清其中的關鍵。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:01:49.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:02:26.203000+08:00","text":"在民國109年7月份時國發會直接投資了世豐電力股份有限公司，當時從109年5月份到113年5月份，你是擔任國發會的主委，參與了世豐電力現金增資，你們投下的金額是5.52億元，持股比例是20%，當時您是國發會主委，現在是經濟部部長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:02:26.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:02:54.233000+08:00","text":"面對這件牽扯到整個綠能產業的發展，還有地方權益以及國家資產保全的指標案件，我們更應該以更嚴謹以及中性的標準，檢視是否存在著制度性的風險，以及利益衝突的漏洞。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:02:55.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:09.787000+08:00","text":"因此本席首先要請教部長，當時您在擔任主委的任內參與了這個投資案，現在他們正面臨資產保全的重大考驗，經濟部跟國發會……國發會現在的主委坐在後面，你們兩位是不是已經做好合規與避險的準備？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:09.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:03:35.081000+08:00","text":"因為本席必須要善意的提醒部長，根據地方發展大事記的記載，世豐在1996年通過環評之後，長期面臨原住民部落與環團的程序抗爭，纏訟多年！","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:03:35.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:13.598000+08:00","text":"外界高度關注、質疑為什麼有纏訟多年黑歷史的案件，在2019年由森崴集團收購之後，隔年國發會就火速地點頭評估，而且進場投資，這在整個審查機制的獨立性跟利益衝突的迴避上，是不是完整具備了客觀的社會說服力？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:14.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:14.379000+08:00","text":"請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:14.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:35.438000+08:00","text":"因為這個案子，第一個，它是個案；第二個，它是現金增資案，理論上它不會進到國發基金管理會我主持的會議裡面，所以這個案子等於是依權責辦理，在國發基金裡面它就核掉了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:37.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:40.402000+08:00","text":"本席就知道你一定會這麼回答，所以我要把這個問題提出來給你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:40.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:41.402000+08:00","text":"程序上是這樣子沒有錯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:40.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:04:52.732000+08:00","text":"接下來本席要請問的是，整個國家資產是不是面臨減損的重大財務危機？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:04:54.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:05:17.887000+08:00","text":"根據最新的財務揭露資料，世豐實收的資本額是23億，國發會當時投資的是5.52億，但是現在傳出該公司的淨值只剩下5億，如果按照20%的比例來計算，我們目前帳面的價值可能只剩下1億。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:05:18.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:05:52.466000+08:00","text":"更令人擔憂的是潛在的退場機制，去年7月1月世豐電力通過授權董事會辦理32.8億的融資，並進行工程的發包，但是到今年為止，我們看到外界與市場的觀察顯現出現場的工程幾乎是停滯當中，更反常的是，據聞公司的人員由原先的25人，現在只剩下5人。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:05:53.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:18.834000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情況之下，一間資本額23億、進行大額融資的開發公司，如果營運人員誠如外界所說的，精簡到只剩下5人，23億資本額的公司，如果精簡到只剩下5個員工，請問這在公司的治理跟工程的履約上是常態嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:18.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:19.174000+08:00","text":"還是一個警訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:19.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:19.214000+08:00","text":"請教部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:24.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:29.464000+08:00","text":"現在的營運狀況我已經不了解，我已經離開國發會一段時間了。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:29.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:30.704000+08:00","text":"好，國發會主委，請你回答。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:31.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:32.705000+08:00","text":"所以是不是請國發會基金的執秘來說明一下？","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:32.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:32.966000+08:00","text":"國發會主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:33.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:34.186000+08:00","text":"是執秘先嗎？還是……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:34.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:35.067000+08:00","text":"你先回答吧。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:42.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:50.611000+08:00","text":"委員的問題可能有一個面向，譬如我們以往的投資，像藥華藥之前虧損得很……","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:50.611000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:06:51.611000+08:00","text":"請你針對本席的提問。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T10:06:50.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:05.945000+08:00","text":"第一個，投資這個部分其實在市場上面會有漲跌，但我們會持續地觀察，不會某一陣子下來之後，我們就趕快出清股票或處分，我們不會這樣做，我們會看比較長期的因應。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:05.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:06.305000+08:00","text":"我請教，目前市場的訊息您了解嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:06.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:06.606000+08:00","text":"關於市場訊息，我是不是可以請執秘……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:06.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:06.646000+08:00","text":"好，執秘，請說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:15.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:32.192000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，世豐電力這個案子目前確實碰到一些困境，投資有賺有賠，它真正要獲利一定是小水力發電開始發電了、賣電力出來，才能夠開始有營收進來。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:32.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:36.414000+08:00","text":"它在過程當中跟原住民的協調、環評的部分……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:36.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:42.076000+08:00","text":"這非常清楚，就針對剛才本席所提問的，是不是目前有這樣的現象，因為市場都一直在傳？就是……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:44.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:07:48.873000+08:00","text":"因為我們是20%的股權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:07:48.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:14.205000+08:00","text":"是，我們持續在關注剛剛委員關切的像公司治理，舉個例子來講，最近森崴能源碰到了……因為森崴入主之後，本來也想有這個資金可以持續開發，但是後來森崴又碰到一些問題，所以現在變成工程上面會有一部分的延宕，經營層確實有碰到一些這樣的問題，就是公司治理這個部分，我們持續在跟……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:14.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:17.748000+08:00","text":"所以你了解這個現象目前是屬實的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:19.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:36.542000+08:00","text":"接下來我要請問，綠能市場傳出了這些訊息，據傳森崴董事會的成員對外尋找買家，準備出脫股權，甚至可能要進行清算，有沒有這回事？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:37.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:39.784000+08:00","text":"這是不是一個風險的警訊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:39.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:45.647000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，以常態性來講，一個企業在發展的過程當中……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:46.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:47.227000+08:00","text":"請教目前有沒有這個現象？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:48.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:08:56.231000+08:00","text":"因為市場一直在謠傳，我們也不希望讓社會恐慌，我們國家單位持股20%，到底有沒有這回事？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:08:56.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:12.617000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，現在最大的股東森崴能源碰到財務上面的問題，確實有在尋找各種不同的資金進駐，至於進駐的比例是多少、會不會變成更大的股東，這個是動態性的發展。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:14.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:09:32.261000+08:00","text":"動態性的發展，所以你們知道確實有這個問題，因為國發會主要是希望……這些錢都是人民的納稅錢，是公共的資金，我們深怕會不會面臨到求償無門的階段、投資石沉大海？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:09:33.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:06.024000+08:00","text":"因為國發會基金的投資最重要的是希望讓我們的產業能夠發展，既然執秘剛才說了，就像本席剛才所說的，社會、市場、產業界所提出的這些面向確實是有的，在這個情況之下，我們希望國發會的投資是為了促進產業創新，絕對不能在缺乏監督的風險之下，淪為特定財團套現的擔保工具！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:06.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:08.465000+08:00","text":"是，我們態度是一致的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:08.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:16.607000+08:00","text":"好，在這樣的情況之下，我相信這個問題除了財務跟治理風險，還包括了社會責任跟職安的安全。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:17.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:37.092000+08:00","text":"我們來檢視113年4月在豐坪溪工作的吳姓測量員發生了工安事件，經過勞動部開出罰單，也公布了負責人的姓名，這牽扯到地方諮商同意的爭議及重大工安。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:38.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:10:57.638000+08:00","text":"剛剛你也承認他們內部的人員異常地從25個人減為5人，以及所有的數字大額融資增額的時候，到底這些錢流向哪裡？","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:10:57.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:00.200000+08:00","text":"工程的進度到底目前是如何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:01.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:04.503000+08:00","text":"社會非常期待看到真正的答案是什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:04.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:36.930000+08:00","text":"因此本席必須站在為人民把關的立場提出以下幾點，請國發會、法務部及經濟部提出資料：第一個，啟動專案合規的審查，請問經濟部及國發會，目前世豐電力的資產淨值、大額融資去向及工程進度究竟如何，必須要跨部會去檢視出來，這是第一個。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:36.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:11:42.313000+08:00","text":"第二個，評估資產保全的因應，因為您也說過了，都在找買家，如果真的準備要出脫、甚至變賣股權的風險訊號已經產生的時候，國發會到底要怎麼樣研擬你們的資產保全因應方案，以防到時候求助無門？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:11:42.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:16.089000+08:00","text":"第三個，法務部基於相關跨部會當中的責任，必須釐清大額融資的部分到底去向為何？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:18.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:26.232000+08:00","text":"以及違反常態，這麼大的公司融資這麼多的金額，為什麼人員反而降低到個位數？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:26.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:30.802000+08:00","text":"整個在公司的治理上，或許有人會害怕是不是有掏空的現象？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:31.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:12:32.664000+08:00","text":"以上這3點，我相信財務風險評估跟資產保全的因應是國發會、法務部及經濟部必須要提出的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:12:32.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:08.090000+08:00","text":"所以我們充分理性的討論，也知道這個訊息已經出來了，國發會身為20%的持股者，派駐的人員更應當要充分地了解，而不是像剛剛部長所說的：「他沒有到我這裡，所以我都不知道」，因為這些錢都是人民的納稅錢、公共資產。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-01T10:13:08.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:16.736000+08:00","text":"所以我希望在兩個禮拜內，就本席剛剛提到這3項的內容提出說明，可以嗎？好。加油！","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T10:13:16.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:16.916000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T10:13:17.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:18.558857+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:13:18.858857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:22.287429+08:00","text":"謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，謝謝各單位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:13:22.587429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:13:25.730286+08:00","text":"接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時1分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長跟國發會主委。"],["主席：請部長、主委。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還要請法務部。"],["主席：請法務部。"],["龔部長明鑫：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。部長，今天主席安排了「補助案審查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」的詢答，本席是站在協助國家把關以及守護納稅人權益的角度，提出了一個目前正處於重大財務與營運風險的個案，期待各部會共同來釐清其中的關鍵。在民國109年7月份時國發會直接投資了世豐電力股份有限公司，當時從109年5月份到113年5月份，你是擔任國發會的主委，參與了世豐電力現金增資，你們投下的金額是5.52億元，持股比例是20%，當時您是國發會主委，現在是經濟部部長。","面對這件牽扯到整個綠能產業的發展，還有地方權益以及國家資產保全的指標案件，我們更應該以更嚴謹以及中性的標準，檢視是否存在著制度性的風險，以及利益衝突的漏洞。因此本席首先要請教部長，當時您在擔任主委的任內參與了這個投資案，現在他們正面臨資產保全的重大考驗，經濟部跟國發會……國發會現在的主委坐在後面，你們兩位是不是已經做好合規與避險的準備？因為本席必須要善意的提醒部長，根據地方發展大事記的記載，世豐在1996年通過環評之後，長期面臨原住民部落與環團的程序抗爭，纏訟多年！外界高度關注、質疑為什麼有纏訟多年黑歷史的案件，在2019年由森崴集團收購之後，隔年國發會就火速地點頭評估，而且進場投資，這在整個審查機制的獨立性跟利益衝突的迴避上，是不是完整具備了客觀的社會說服力？請教部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：因為這個案子，第一個，它是個案；第二個，它是現金增資案，理論上它不會進到國發基金管理會我主持的會議裡面，所以這個案子等於是依權責辦理，在國發基金裡面它就核掉了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席就知道你一定會這麼回答，所以我要把這個問題提出來給你。"],["龔部長明鑫：程序上是這樣子沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請問的是，整個國家資產是不是面臨減損的重大財務危機？根據最新的財務揭露資料，世豐實收的資本額是23億，國發會當時投資的是5.52億，但是現在傳出該公司的淨值只剩下5億，如果按照20%的比例來計算，我們目前帳面的價值可能只剩下1億。","更令人擔憂的是潛在的退場機制，去年7月1月世豐電力通過授權董事會辦理32.8億的融資，並進行工程的發包，但是到今年為止，我們看到外界與市場的觀察顯現出現場的工程幾乎是停滯當中，更反常的是，據聞公司的人員由原先的25人，現在只剩下5人。在這樣的情況之下，一間資本額23億、進行大額融資的開發公司，如果營運人員誠如外界所說的，精簡到只剩下5人，23億資本額的公司，如果精簡到只剩下5個員工，請問這在公司的治理跟工程的履約上是常態嗎？還是一個警訊？請教部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：現在的營運狀況我已經不了解，我已經離開國發會一段時間了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，國發會主委，請你回答。"],["龔部長明鑫：所以是不是請國發會基金的執秘來說明一下？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國發會主委。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是執秘先嗎？還是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你先回答吧。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。委員的問題可能有一個面向，譬如我們以往的投資，像藥華藥之前虧損得很……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你針對本席的提問。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：第一個，投資這個部分其實在市場上面會有漲跌，但我們會持續地觀察，不會某一陣子下來之後，我們就趕快出清股票或處分，我們不會這樣做，我們會看比較長期的因應。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我請教，目前市場的訊息您了解嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：關於市場訊息，我是不是可以請執秘……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，執秘，請說明。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：跟委員報告，世豐電力這個案子目前確實碰到一些困境，投資有賺有賠，它真正要獲利一定是小水力發電開始發電了、賣電力出來，才能夠開始有營收進來。它在過程當中跟原住民的協調、環評的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這非常清楚，就針對剛才本席所提問的，是不是目前有這樣的現象，因為市場都一直在傳？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：就是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們是20%的股權。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，我們持續在關注剛剛委員關切的像公司治理，舉個例子來講，最近森崴能源碰到了……因為森崴入主之後，本來也想有這個資金可以持續開發，但是後來森崴又碰到一些問題，所以現在變成工程上面會有一部分的延宕，經營層確實有碰到一些這樣的問題，就是公司治理這個部分，我們持續在跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你了解這個現象目前是屬實的。接下來我要請問，綠能市場傳出了這些訊息，據傳森崴董事會的成員對外尋找買家，準備出脫股權，甚至可能要進行清算，有沒有這回事？這是不是一個風險的警訊？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：跟委員報告，以常態性來講，一個企業在發展的過程當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教目前有沒有這個現象？因為市場一直在謠傳，我們也不希望讓社會恐慌，我們國家單位持股20%，到底有沒有這回事？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：我跟委員報告，現在最大的股東森崴能源碰到財務上面的問題，確實有在尋找各種不同的資金進駐，至於進駐的比例是多少、會不會變成更大的股東，這個是動態性的發展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：動態性的發展，所以你們知道確實有這個問題，因為國發會主要是希望……這些錢都是人民的納稅錢，是公共的資金，我們深怕會不會面臨到求償無門的階段、投資石沉大海？因為國發會基金的投資最重要的是希望讓我們的產業能夠發展，既然執秘剛才說了，就像本席剛才所說的，社會、市場、產業界所提出的這些面向確實是有的，在這個情況之下，我們希望國發會的投資是為了促進產業創新，絕對不能在缺乏監督的風險之下，淪為特定財團套現的擔保工具！"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，我們態度是一致的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，在這樣的情況之下，我相信這個問題除了財務跟治理風險，還包括了社會責任跟職安的安全。我們來檢視113年4月在豐坪溪工作的吳姓測量員發生了工安事件，經過勞動部開出罰單，也公布了負責人的姓名，這牽扯到地方諮商同意的爭議及重大工安。剛剛你也承認他們內部的人員異常地從25個人減為5人，以及所有的數字大額融資增額的時候，到底這些錢流向哪裡？工程的進度到底目前是如何？社會非常期待看到真正的答案是什麼。","因此本席必須站在為人民把關的立場提出以下幾點，請國發會、法務部及經濟部提出資料：第一個，啟動專案合規的審查，請問經濟部及國發會，目前世豐電力的資產淨值、大額融資去向及工程進度究竟如何，必須要跨部會去檢視出來，這是第一個。第二個，評估資產保全的因應，因為您也說過了，都在找買家，如果真的準備要出脫、甚至變賣股權的風險訊號已經產生的時候，國發會到底要怎麼樣研擬你們的資產保全因應方案，以防到時候求助無門？第三個，法務部基於相關跨部會當中的責任，必須釐清大額融資的部分到底去向為何？以及違反常態，這麼大的公司融資這麼多的金額，為什麼人員反而降低到個位數？整個在公司的治理上，或許有人會害怕是不是有掏空的現象？以上這3點，我相信財務風險評估跟資產保全的因應是國發會、法務部及經濟部必須要提出的。","所以我們充分理性的討論，也知道這個訊息已經出來了，國發會身為20%的持股者，派駐的人員更應當要充分地了解，而不是像剛剛部長所說的：「他沒有到我這裡，所以我都不知道」，因為這些錢都是人民的納稅錢、公共資產。所以我希望在兩個禮拜內，就本席剛剛提到這3項的內容提出說明，可以嗎？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：加油！"],["汪執行秘書庭安：謝謝委員。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，謝謝各單位。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}