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謝謝主席 有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長有請秘書長我們行政院人事總署 今天來的是陳處長行政院人事總署陳處長"},{"start":27.458,"end":53.85,"text":"秘書長跟陳處長我想今天的這個整個考機法的一個修訂如果來再去做結合說現在整個公務人員的一個環境來一併的去做思考的話那可能會得到一個更多的一個啟發那高普考的報名人數比如說今年再創新低那再創新低的話就比去年又少了快4000"},{"start":55.331,"end":70.135,"text":"也就是說整個文官體系是對於要報考的人對於一般民眾來講那個吸引力似乎人數少了4000就代表降低了嘛代表降低了以後就是說這個可能"},{"start":71.348,"end":97.656,"text":"大家認為說在公務機關裡面那個地方的一個發展可能跟民間來做比較的話就會有比較低的那我來請教我們人事總署這個地方人總家說你們高普考的年數你們這樣連續的年年下滑那對文官的環境裡面你們有沒有怎麼樣的一個"},{"start":98.916,"end":126.492,"text":"認為要去改善的一個地方報告委員 這個是我們人種這幾年非常非常努力的一個課題然後我們也努力在做 我們做了什麼呢我們包括跟全序部一起在做這個植物列等的一個調整從植物結構來做因應那在植物結構以外那該補足的人力 這也是委員一直關心的這部分我們也一直在處理中那再來是整個友善職場友善職場包含什麼 就是包含育兒的環境 包含"},{"start":126.932,"end":152.822,"text":"烤雞的一個環境包含這個升遷的一個友善的一個對待這部分我們也都很積極的在處理那在就是友善的一個職場的環境部分那委員可能要也是很想要了解的是說那整個在包含待遇的部分那這個也已經在進行當中那有具體的一個結果會做對外的一個說明"},{"start":153.902,"end":179.142,"text":"你們認為現在的公務環境那個競爭力你們認為怎麼樣這個就是我們一直很想要解決的一個問題那其實很實際感受到的是現在的行政壓力確實是很大的所以我們也一直希望能夠多一些行政減壓的一個工作這是我們的心聲"},{"start":181.587,"end":191.081,"text":"其實我都覺得啦 你當公務人員 如果大家認為這個環境是還算不錯的那其實報考率應該會增加"},{"start":191.687,"end":202.634,"text":"那也未必說當公務人員不好啦那也有可能這個社會百花齊放嘛民間競爭力比較好啊 我今年要做到一半 我覺得我白天我民間有比較適當 我當然也照顧下去啦所以這個公務員這樣的一個環境行政體系裡面到底有沒有還具備競爭力喔這個其實是很嚴肅的一個問題啦我們也確實要加速的去做一個改善啦 畢竟啊"},{"start":219.105,"end":238.135,"text":"留住一些優秀的公務人員行政效率當然會提升那其實也是對於整個國家的競爭力這個都有很大的一個幫助但是我現在碰到一個問題我覺得劉秘書長也很適合去回答這樣的一個問題因為你的敏感度也很夠就是說現在民意代表所知的問題去討主流的問題"},{"start":240.966,"end":268.825,"text":"也忙的實在是讓基層的或者承辦的公務人員人仰馬翻可是你說站在民意代表監督的一個立場你要去把它做一個設限的話其實也沒有道理你說你們去弄一個指引該給民意代表什麼樣的不管是中央或者地方中央就國會或者地方議會這一些民意代表他要去所知你說弄個指引給他一些什麼"},{"start":271.446,"end":297.232,"text":"不符合這樣的一個監督的精神我要監督你除了秘密以外當然要求行政機關來提供的話那天經地義啊可是呢這個大量我看現在很多大量的這樣的一個所知也造成承辦公務人員很大的一個困擾就是說這個變成你整個以現在的情況來看的話"},{"start":298.513,"end":305.64,"text":"比如說我要監督,我就必須要資料那可是呢,我要這個資料,我又要不到完整那行政機關常常就是,我親自給你就好啦或者說故意缺漏啦那個是惡性循環啦,惡性循環啦那手資如果不完整的話,我當然會再次再去要啦"},{"start":316.05,"end":336.985,"text":"那以現在來看啦 我反而要請教MU長或者任總這個地方你們面對這種所知造成基層公務人員這樣的一個過勞你們有什麼改善的方案嗎 你們有去想嗎或者是有一些本來可以公開可以去識別化的 或者說其實把它數位化讓大家去點一下就有 還是要承辦公務人員要提供民意代表的所知的話"},{"start":344.795,"end":352.608,"text":"就可以達到更簡化的一個目的不要造成我看地方你看台北市就這樣子了嘛中央我相信也有可能碰到這種狀況你們有什麼良方嗎"},{"start":355.709,"end":384.588,"text":"跟委員報告 您剛剛講到這個面向就是我覺得就是民主的代價就是說現在公務同仁的確在面對很多就是不管是議會民意機關的索取資料或相關詢問報告或者是在為民服務的部分它都被要求要強化所以因此這個部分的確會多了比較多的工作那也會變得被要求的標準比較高我想這讓大家覺得就是說這份工作好像漸漸變得越來越不好做"},{"start":386.209,"end":399.757,"text":"但是這個因為民主制度要運行也沒有辦法說去避免這樣的一個狀況那您剛剛講到所知的部分有沒有什麼好的辦法減輕大家的工作量我覺得一個部分就是說"},{"start":402.028,"end":417.717,"text":"其實機關內部的資料保存的方法如果他的資料庫的建置是比較好的話其實同仁有的時候只是會很方便的去調的出資料那像以前譬如說我們的統計資料是每一年一年的年報"},{"start":418.658,"end":445.374,"text":"那有的時候你要去要跨年的資料說最近十年的資料是什麼他要從不同的資料庫裡面去把它抓出來但是如果你資料庫有一個年度的串聯的時候就會比較容易抓就類似這樣的方法也許可以稍微減輕一下同仁的工作量第二個當然就是說可能跟所知對象的機關來源的部分這個到底要求跟期待是什麼這個部分的判斷如果精準的話也會避免一再的重複就是說提供了錯誤的資訊就這個動作一再的重複"},{"start":447.715,"end":464.103,"text":"這個大概就是操作面的部分啦那其實喔我從地方民意代表這樣上來我看喔其實行政體系公務機關啊難免會有那種對抗的一個心態我不想給你太多我不想給你完整我給你更完整的東西你的民意代表拿這個來修理我拿來整我"},{"start":466.792,"end":482.205,"text":"那好像這個看起來就是新聞媒體一打下去新聞媒體噢鋪天蓋地站在城辦的公務人員他當然會有所抗拒的但是這沒完沒了啦這個會沒完沒了啦我本期都認為除了"},{"start":483.346,"end":512.306,"text":"秘密的東西以外不能夠提供的部分以外你一般站在民意代表監督的一個立場其實那個所知公務人員來做提供那其實反而是都是應該他應該盡到的一個職責不然民主政治設置這個議會要來幹什麼那我想接下來我要針對於考記法的一個修正人總陳處長這邊請回就是說我們考記法第二條其實明定就是說"},{"start":515.407,"end":541.475,"text":"這個 綜合名實 信賞必乏你說你如果做得好 我一定會幫你獎勵做得不好我就會幫你出發這個烤雞制度真正要去回答的是說你這個打烤雞喔 到底是為了行政上的一個管理方便當然有烤雞的話 行政上管理就很方便啦雞肝一定都沒有啦 鹹鮮果太沒但最主要其實還是提升這個整個行政的一個效能啦"},{"start":541.895,"end":557.049,"text":"那你考機的話 你說你真正說我考機打下去的話我當一個主管 我打下去到底是因為我的對他的印象還是人情的因素 還是真正他這個工作上的一個表現達到一定的一個標準 應該給他做一個獎勵喔如果說在公務體系裡面喔 你為了要留住這個人才 或者要讓新的人進來"},{"start":564.956,"end":581.467,"text":"這個考記制度我還是覺得非常非常的一個重要啦就是你怎麼樣去把不適任的人我們這次的修訂裡面不適任的當然要把它淘汰掉可是你怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的一個濫權這個在立法院裡面討論的太多太多啦你說標準如果很明確的你說重大為師造成傷亡重大損失"},{"start":591.673,"end":595.895,"text":"你說這個累積一大過一直累積上來就相對都很客觀但是我看你們這個外加的幾項裡面你說態度惡劣啦工作推諉啦工作品質不佳啦或是說團隊合作不佳管理失當這個情節重大都是很不確定的一個概念所以來 情緒部這個情緒部你要起來說因為情節重大你們要怎麼認定"},{"start":619.145,"end":640.999,"text":"會碰到什麼問題 你知道嗎所以說 個別的機關裡面可能說我是主管 我不在我面前說我因為你這個情節重大可是不同機關看法又有所不同了全部都是公務機關的時候這個不同的機關是不是會有不同的一個標準那如何去避免說主管 我主觀的自己的"},{"start":642.98,"end":656.893,"text":"標準 或者說我對這個涉案的 或者說要被處罰的一個對象對你平常印象就很不好了那些主觀 那個沒完沒了 那個真的就沒完沒了那甚至於 職場上會有一些霸凌的狀況"},{"start":657.898,"end":680.679,"text":"都常常是因為這樣子而產生啦尤其是說你現在的被處罰的人你這個程序上的一個保障要怎麼去做一個保護我認為尤其是你要做成重大不利的一個處分之前要怎麼讓他有一些程序上的一個保障我問一下全序部長 施部長你的看法"},{"start":681.399,"end":698.075,"text":"各位委員報告 我們先講後面程序啦我們因為這樣知道 所以我們這次在法裡面對於你要打人家未打良好 那個程序的保障在後面的條文都很清楚的說明我們想前面的程序一定要先做面談記錄 然後通常要這個完了以後要經過這個委員會 這個考試委員會的一個處理"},{"start":702.278,"end":724.256,"text":"國際委員會裡面當事人只要你要打他未打良好他基本上是有一定的保障他可以到場去做這個意見的一個程序我想這個就是比現在基本上都現在打平等就沒有這些程序我們這次就是因為覺得這個部分是還是影響重大所以問題後面做更多程序的一個附加"},{"start":725.137,"end":741.248,"text":"那當然最後還是可以去做救濟啊我的想法就是這樣子啦 你這些程序 程序上的一個保障有沒有辦法跟主管 比如說我這個主管 我自己的財糧有沒有辦法來跟我做一個對抗 我覺得這是重點第二個就是說 那好啦 這個機關裡面也許他達到一個平衡的標準看起來都很客觀 我這個機關就是這樣 跨機關又麻煩了會有這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":755.263,"end":777.069,"text":"我們即使現在所有的打烤機本身都是有跨機關之間的材料拿捏的一個議題這我想您應該也可以同意這樣實務上的一個做法所以只是說我們要講的是說我們現在把標準先把它匡列 類別出來這類別如果你要按照某一個室友去給人家做這個未打烤你一定要有具體的事實做佐證嘛"},{"start":777.529,"end":796.384,"text":"然後接下來過程你要去跟他面談面談 同仁當然這過程就可以跟你談說你這樣說我不這麼想啊有一些程序完成以後然後最後呢機關程序完成他還是可以去做救濟的一個程序所以我覺得能做的我們再努力再想辦法讓一般人都讓"},{"start":797.345,"end":813.295,"text":"社會上回應說我們對公務員如果有些比較不盡責我們還是要做處理因為我們注意到機關也不可以隨便去濫用這個制度這個過程當然未來在執行的時候一定有教育宣導或者怎麼教機關怎麼這些事情應該要怎麼進行這一定後面還有事情要做"},{"start":815.436,"end":832.125,"text":"其實我還發現了一個問題,就是說全序部,就是說我們的考試獎金的問題,考試獎金的一個制度,你沒有解決這個問題,就是這個解決這個整個激勵的一個問題,你以前全序部你以前的研究也有指出說,資深"},{"start":833.126,"end":853.84,"text":"但是表現普通的人考積獎金反而比之前但是表現優秀的人還要高那你修法以後還是存在你像譬如說梁豪加林宮奉最高級優秀加魏達林宮奉最高級就是這樣讓年輕工人感受到我的努力也不一定有回報連資反而比我的"},{"start":857.643,"end":864.628,"text":"績效啊 還更重要啦所以我請教市部長就是說你們過去已經知道這個制度是這間的修法裡面沒有去改善到那是不是你考慮把這個久任跟績效的部分"},{"start":872.18,"end":894.999,"text":"分開了 你看民間 民間的普遍都會認為說我這個績效獎金 這做了不錯的人 我有一個獎金你久任的部分 做比較久的人 另外一個獎金你去把它 就久任的我代表說 我公司 我公務機關 我流財嘛那考機 代表說我工作上的一個表現 就是目的不同啦"},{"start":895.78,"end":922.311,"text":"你敢做那個?你敢做那個?我不知道,其實你們早就已經有去研議過了我是這樣建議的你建立一個久任獎金跟留任獎勵的一個制度就是說讓那些考積獎金真正回歸到說考積就是要你做得好,獎勵優秀的嘛那這樣的一個本質你建立一個更可以鼓勵優秀人才投入公職的一個制度我覺得這個就是正辦,我不知道你看到什麼"},{"start":925.203,"end":951.679,"text":"跟我們報告啦我知道我們用二乘二的變相去處理這個事情就變成有不同的類別嘛我們目前的做法就是事實上如果你達到年功奉到頂的就是有另外一個月的加發一個月的那個獎金其實就是有點像是九人一般的跟他資深的九人獎金有不同的意思啦至於您提到說還要把這兩個變相再做一個區隔這個"},{"start":954.201,"end":958.984,"text":"我們來想想看是不是會比現在的做法更好啦你這個國務人員的制度恢復恢復啦你知道嗎那是說市部長你這是已經做久了 老叫了但是在我們站在民意機關的立場來看就是說"},{"start":970.171,"end":988.829,"text":"其實就是說這個公務體系這個環境如何讓它繼續有競爭力這個是重點啦你這樣行政效能才會去提升啦其實你這個考機的一個制度喔如果不再去在一個比較前瞻性的思考的話老問題全部都存在了我自己的看法啦"},{"start":992.745,"end":1021.539,"text":"我坦白講我們現在考機制度的轉變是希望能夠先回應外界很多不公的意見然後我們盡可能去做這個事情可是我覺得真正的我們在這次考機法裡面有一個叫做激勵獎金即時獎勵那才是民間的做法啦就在民間公司它不會什麼事情都是壓到那個年底嘛年底當然有另外一個考機獎金但是平常的時候如果你覺得同仁做得好"},{"start":1022.554,"end":1050.72,"text":"你當然主要就應該給他獎勵我們這一次事實上就是希望把這個東西放上去事實上那個辦法也執行了像我部裡面就開始執行了我的意思是說我同仁因為推動什麼什麼事情我覺得做得很不錯不管是個人或者團體我們就可以機關用我們的費用做一個內部的評估就給了我覺得那個才真正是及時有效果那他獎金的額度老實說也不會比"},{"start":1052.095,"end":1076.513,"text":"有些情況下他也是年終獎 你看年終獎一個月來講他慢慢累積也是很好的一個事情而且同仁會覺得很清楚What is what with something很清楚的會被激勵所以我們這一次是一方面有激勵獎金一方面有優秀在考級裡面就是以優秀等次來激勵同仁我覺得這兩個東西是比較像是民間的那個做法公務級優秀的人才你說從公務機關流到民間機關這個也無可厚非"},{"start":1081.837,"end":1097.46,"text":"這個很正常 我的很優秀的人 我覺得民間對我來講更有吸引力他到那個地方去 你不能講什麼 每一個人人生的規劃會有所不一樣但是在公務體系裡面 如果那個報考率一直降低一直降低一直降低 那個這個真的會連你整個公務體系都已經喪失掉整個競爭力的話 這個確實是一個危機喔這個對於整個行政效能來講 這其實你們也要去想辦法喔"},{"start":1106.002,"end":1114.112,"text":"這是整個政府真的要不管是哪一個院 都要共同努力包括每一個部會我覺得這個事情是大家真的要共同努力的事情好 今天很努力 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:28:59.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:02.330000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請考試院劉建忻秘書長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:04.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:06.972000+08:00","text":"請秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:06.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:07.972000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:07.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:13.135000+08:00","text":"行政院人事行政總處今天來的是陳處長。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:13.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:13.996000+08:00","text":"行政院人事總處陳處長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:18.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:21.680000+08:00","text":"秘書長跟陳處長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:21.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:37.787000+08:00","text":"今天考績法的修訂，如果結合現在整個公務人員的環境來一併思考的話，可能會得到更多的啟發。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:38.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:41.549000+08:00","text":"高普考的報名人數今年再創新低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:41.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:29:42.729000+08:00","text":"今年低。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:29:42.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:10.390000+08:00","text":"再創新低，比去年又少了快四千，也就是整個文官體系對於要報考的人，對一般民眾來講的話，吸引力似乎……人數少了四千就代表降低了，可能大家認為在公務機關裡面的發展，跟民間做比較的話，又比較低了。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:11.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:31.537000+08:00","text":"我請教人事總處，高普考人數連年下滑，對於文官環境，你們認為有沒有要如何改善的地方？","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:32.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:38.621000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這是我們人總這幾年非常非常努力的一個課題，我們也努力在做，我們做了什麼呢？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:39.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:44.965000+08:00","text":"包括跟銓敘部一起做職務列等的調整，從職務結構來做因應。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:46.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:51.969000+08:00","text":"除了職務結構以外，該補足的人力，這也是委員一直關心的部分，我們也一直在處理中。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:52.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:54.550000+08:00","text":"再來是友善職場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:54.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:30:55.791000+08:00","text":"友善職場包含什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:30:55.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:31:04.394000+08:00","text":"包含育兒環境、考績環境、升遷的友善對待，這部分我們也都很積極在處理。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:31:06.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:31:23.802000+08:00","text":"針對友善的職場環境委員可能想要了解待遇部分，這也已經在進行當中，一旦有具體結果就會對外說明。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:31:23.802000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:31:24.902000+08:00","text":"以上報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:31:24.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:31:27.845000+08:00","text":"你們認為現在的公務環境與競爭力如何？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳處長雅玲","start":"2026-07-01T10:31:30.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:31:50.142000+08:00","text":"這是我們一直很想解決的問題，我們實際感受到的是現在的行政壓力確實很大，所以我們一直希望能多一些行政減壓，這是我們的心聲。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:31:56.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:32:02.061000+08:00","text":"如果大家認為公務人員的環境還算不錯，其實報考率應該會增加。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:32:04.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:32:11.693000+08:00","text":"當公務人員未必不好，但社會百花齊放，民間競爭力比較好，也許有公務人員做到一半，覺得民間比較適當的話，當然就到那邊去了。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:32:11.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:32:12.293000+08:00","text":"所以現在公務人員的環境與行政體系，到底還具不具備競爭力？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:32:12.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:32:38.449000+08:00","text":"這其實是一個很嚴肅的問題，確實需要加速改善，畢竟留住優秀的公務人員，除了行政效率會提升外，對於國家的競爭力也有很大幫助。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:32:39.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:32:57.070000+08:00","text":"我現在碰到一個問題，而劉秘書長很適合回答這樣的問題，因為你的敏感度很夠，也就是民意代表索資、討資料的問題讓基層或承辦的公務人員忙得人仰馬翻。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:32:59.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:05.655000+08:00","text":"站在民意代表監督的立場，若要對此設限其實沒有道理！","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:33:06.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:19.505000+08:00","text":"即便你們弄了指引給民意代表什麼樣的……不管是中央或地方，中央就是國會，或地方議會的民意代表要索資，為此說要弄個指引給他？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:33:22.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:25.487000+08:00","text":"這樣好像不符合監督的精神。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:33:26.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:42.891000+08:00","text":"我要監督你，除了秘密以外，當然會要求行政機關提供資料，這天經地義，我看現在有很多大量的索資，造成承辦公務人員很大的困擾。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:33:46.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:56.079000+08:00","text":"以現在的情況來看，如果我要監督，就必須要資料；可是我要資料，卻要不到完整的資料，因為行政機關常常隨便給，或故意缺漏，導致惡性循環！","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:33:56.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:33:56.600000+08:00","text":"若索資不完整，我當然會再去要。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:34:07.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:34:20.820000+08:00","text":"以現在來看，我想請教秘書長或人總，面對因索資而造成基層公務人員過勞的問題，你們有什麼改善方案嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:34:20.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:34:22.001000+08:00","text":"你們有在想嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:34:22.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:34:43.608000+08:00","text":"或者有些本來該公開、可以去識別化的，或把它數位化，讓大家上網點一下就有，讓承辦公務人員在提供民意代表索資時可以達到更簡化的目的，不要造成地方……你看臺北市就是這樣子，相信中央也有可能碰到這種狀況，對此，你們有什麼良方嗎？","quality":0.869},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:34:46.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:34:52.733000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，您剛剛講到的面向，我覺得是民主的代價。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:34:53.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:04.460000+08:00","text":"現在公務同仁要面對的的確很多，不管是議會、民意機關的索取資料或相關的詢問、報告，或為民服務部分，都被要求要強化！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:04.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:15.568000+08:00","text":"因此，這部分的確多了比較多的工作，而被要求的標準也會比較高，讓大家覺得這份工作好像漸漸變得越來越不好做。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:17.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:23.613000+08:00","text":"但民主制度的運行，沒有辦法避免這樣的狀況。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:24.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:28.376000+08:00","text":"至於您剛剛講到索資，這部分有沒有什麼好的辦法可以減輕大家的工作量？","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:29.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:43.754000+08:00","text":"我覺得一部分在於機關內部資料保存的方法，如果資料庫建置得比較好，會很方便同仁調出資料。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:44.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:03.266000+08:00","text":"像以前的統計資料是一年一年的年報，如果要調跨年的資料，譬如最近十年的資料，就要從不同的資料庫裡抓出來；但如果資料庫有年度的串聯就會比較容易抓，類似這樣的方法也許可以稍微減輕同仁的工作量。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:03.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:10.690000+08:00","text":"第二個，索資對象的機關來源要求跟期待是什麼？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:10.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:20.016000+08:00","text":"若這部分判斷精準，也可以避免一再的重複提供，這是操作面部分。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:22.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:50.323000+08:00","text":"我從地方民意代表上來，我知道行政體系、公務機關難免會有對抗心態，也就是不想給太多，不想給完整，若給你更完整的東西，民意代表會拿這個來修理我、拿來整我，而且新聞媒體一打下去就是鋪天蓋地，站在承辦的公務人員立場，當然會有所抗拒，但這樣會沒完沒了！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:52.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:13.799000+08:00","text":"我本席認為，除了秘密的東西以外、不能提供的部分以外，一般站在民意代表監督的立場，公務人員針對索資來提供，反而是應該要盡到的職責，否則民主政治設置議會要幹什麼？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:18.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:19.883000+08:00","text":"人總陳處長先請回。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:19.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:21.504000+08:00","text":"接下來我請教有關考績法的修正。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:21.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:28.307000+08:00","text":"考績法第二條明定，綜覈名實、信賞必罰。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:29.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:33.449000+08:00","text":"亦即如果做得好，應該給獎勵；做得不好的，就要處罰。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:36.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:42.912000+08:00","text":"因此，考績制度真正要回答的是：打考績到底是不是為了行政上的管理方便？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:43.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:46.593000+08:00","text":"當然，有考績的話，行政上的管理就會很方便，畢竟多少都會有人摸蛤蜊兼洗褲子！","quality":0.485},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:47.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:52.295000+08:00","text":"但我想最主要的其實還是在於提升行政效能！","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:56.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:00.422000+08:00","text":"我當主管，考績打下去，到底是基於我對他的印象？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:01.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:02.164000+08:00","text":"還是人情因素？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:02.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:07.168000+08:00","text":"還是他在工作上的表現達到一定標準，應該給他獎勵？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:07.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:30.625000+08:00","text":"公務體系為了要留住人才，或要讓新的人進來，考績制度就非常、非常重要，把不適任的人……在這次的修訂裡，不適任的當然要淘汰掉，問題在於怎麼避免產生濫權？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:30.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:30.986000+08:00","text":"這在立法院其實討論得太多、太多了。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:31.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:43.013000+08:00","text":"若標準很明確，譬如重大違失，造成傷亡重大損失，這就非常清楚；若累積一大過一直累積的話……這些相對都很客觀。","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:43.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:46.635000+08:00","text":"但你們外加的幾項裡面，譬如態度惡劣、工作推諉、工作品質不佳，或團隊合作不佳、管理失當，有關情節重大的都是很不確定的概念，我想這需要銓敘部來說明了。","quality":0.785},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:46.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:46.875000+08:00","text":"對於情節重大，你們是怎麼認定的？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:10.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:10.605000+08:00","text":"會碰到什麼問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:10.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:11.206000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:12.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:21.112000+08:00","text":"換言之，個別的機關裡若有主管認為你情節重大，但不同機關看法又有所不同！","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:21.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:26.976000+08:00","text":"縱使全部都是公務機關，不同的機關是不是會有不同的標準？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:27.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:33.980000+08:00","text":"因此，如何避免主管主觀的標準？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:34.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:47.633000+08:00","text":"或者平常對涉案者、對於要被處罰的對象印象就很不好了，一旦這麼主觀，那真的沒完沒了，職場上甚至常常會因此產生霸凌。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:54.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:00.288000+08:00","text":"對於被處罰的人程序上的保障要怎麼去做？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:00.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:01.730000+08:00","text":"該怎麼保護？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:03.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:09.237000+08:00","text":"特別是做成重大不利處分之前，如何才能讓他得到程序上的保障？","quality":0.704},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:10.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:11.659000+08:00","text":"銓敘部施部長的看法為何？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:12.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:13.741000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我先講後面的程序。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:14.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:22.268000+08:00","text":"就是因為知道，所以在這次修法，對於要打人家未達良好的考績時，相關程序的保障在後面條文都有很清楚的說明。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:23.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:29.055000+08:00","text":"前面的程序一定要先做面談、紀錄，這些完了以後還要經過考績委員會的處理。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:33.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:48.031000+08:00","text":"在考績委員會裡，凡被打考績未達良好者，基本上都有一定的保障，也可以到場做意見陳述，現在打丙等的人並沒有這些程序。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:48.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:57.738000+08:00","text":"這次就是因為覺得這部分仍舊影響重大，才會在後面做更多程序的附加，而且最後還可以提救濟。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:58.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:09.967000+08:00","text":"我的想法就是這樣子，你們這些程序上的保障有沒有辦法跟主管……比如對於這個主管自己的裁量，有沒有辦法跟他做對抗？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:10.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:12.228000+08:00","text":"我覺得這是重點；第二個，在機關裡面，也許它達到一個平衡的標準，看起來都很客觀，我這個機關就是這樣，但是跨機關的話又麻煩了，會有這樣的問題。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:27.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:35.685000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實現在所有打考績本身都是有跨機關之間的裁量、拿捏的議題，我想你應該也可以同意這樣實務上的做法。是、是。","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:36.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:54.994000+08:00","text":"只是我們要講的是，我們現在把標準先框出類別，如果你要按照某一個事由去打人家「未達良好」，你一定要有具體的事實做佐證，接下來的過程你要去跟他面談，在面談時，同仁在這個過程裡面就可以跟你談說，你這樣講，但我沒有這樣想啊！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:55.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:24.275000+08:00","text":"有一些程序完成以後，最後機關程序完成，他還是可以去做救濟的程序，所以我覺得能做的我們努力在想辦法，一方面是回應社會，對於公務人員如果有一些比較不盡責的，我們還是要做處理；另一方面，我們注意到機關也不可以隨便濫用這個制度，而這個過程，當然未來在執行時一定會有教育宣導，或者教機關這些事情應該怎麼進行，後面一定還有事情要做。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:26.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:39.063000+08:00","text":"其實我還發現一個問題，銓敘部對於考績獎金的制度你們沒有解決的問題就是整個激勵的問題。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:40.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:23.380000+08:00","text":"銓敘部以前的研究曾指出，資深但是表現普通的人領到的考績獎金反而比資淺但是表現優秀的人還要高，你修法以後這個情形還是存在，比如「良好」加年功俸最高級、「優秀」加未達年功俸最高級，這樣會讓年輕的公務人員感受到的是，我努力也不一定有回報，年資反而比我的績效還更重要，所以我想請教施部長，你們過去已經知道這個制度在這次修法裡面沒有去改善到，是否考慮把久任跟績效的部分分開？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:24.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:33.829000+08:00","text":"你看民間普遍都會認為，像績效獎金，做得不錯的人會有一個獎金，而久任的部分、做比較久的人則有另外一個獎金。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:35.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:52.242000+08:00","text":"久任就代表這個公司或者公務機關留才，而考績則代表我在工作上的表現，就是目的不同，你卻把它們綁在一起，其實你們早就已經有研議過。","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:52.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:13.231000+08:00","text":"我是這樣建議，你可以建立一個久任獎金跟留任獎勵的制度，讓考績獎金真正回歸到考績就是針對做得好的、獎勵優秀人才這樣的本質，你要建立一個更可以鼓勵優秀人才投入公職的制度，我覺得這才是正辦，不知道你的看法如何？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:16.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:48.003000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們用二乘二的變項去處理這個事情就變成有不同的類別，我們目前的做法是，如果你達到年功俸到頂的，另外有加發一個月的獎金，其實這就有點像是資深的久任獎金，有那樣的意思，至於您提到還要把這兩個變項再做一個區隔，我們來想想看這是不是會比現在的做法更好。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:48.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:49.924000+08:00","text":"公務人員的制度林林總總，因為施部長已經做很久，是老鳥了，但是站在民意機關的立場來看……","quality":0.711},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:49.924000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:02.993000+08:00","text":"我了解啦……","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:02.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:08.278000+08:00","text":"公務體系這個環境如何讓它繼續有競爭力，這個是重點。對。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:09.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:11.100000+08:00","text":"這樣行政效能才會提升。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:11.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:19.288000+08:00","text":"其實你這個考績的制度如果沒有一個比較前瞻性的思考的話，老問題全部都還是存在。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:19.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:42.854000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我自己的看法是，坦白講，我們現在考績制度的轉變是希望能夠先回應外界很多不一樣的意見，我們盡可能去做這個事情，可是我覺得真正的……我們在這次考績法裡面有一個叫做激勵獎金、即時獎勵，那才是民間的做法。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:44.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:01.876000+08:00","text":"在民間公司，他們不會什麼事情都是壓到年底，年底當然有另外的考績獎金，但是平常的時候，如果你覺得同仁做得好，當然主管就應該給他獎勵，我們這一次就是希望把這個東西都放上去，事實上，那個辦法也執行了，像我部裡面就開始執行了。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:02.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:44.611000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，我們同仁因為推動什麼、什麼事情，我覺得做得很不錯，不管是個人或者團體，機關就可以用他們的費用做一個內部的評估，然後就給了，我覺得那才真正是即時、有效果，至於獎金的額度，老實說也不會比……有些情況下它也是年終獎……以年終獎金一個月來講，他慢慢累積也是很好的一件事情，而且同仁會很清楚他為什麼獲得這個獎金，也因此被激勵，所以我們這一次是一方面有激勵獎金，一方面用「優秀」，在考績裡面就是以「優秀」等次來激勵同仁，我覺得這兩個東西是比較像民間的做法。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:44.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.600000+08:00","text":"公務極優秀的人才，你說從公務機關流到民間機關，這也無可厚非，這很正常，我是很優秀的人，我覺得民間對我來講更有吸引力，如果他到那個地方去，你不能講什麼，每一個人人生的規劃會有所不一樣，但是在公務體系裡面，如果報考率一直降低、一直降低、一直降低，連整個公務體系都已經喪失掉整個競爭力的話，這確實是一個危機。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.860000+08:00","text":"這個確實是……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:08.420000+08:00","text":"對於整個行政效能來講，其實你們也要去想辦法哦！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:17.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:24.471000+08:00","text":"整個政府不管是哪一個院都要共同努力的，包括每一個部會，我覺得這個事情是大家真的要共同努力的事情。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:24.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:25.112000+08:00","text":"好，這個要努力，謝謝。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:25.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:28.754857+08:00","text":"接下來請范雲委員來詢答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:29.054857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:31.626286+08:00","text":"教授級出馬，必定佳作！","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":517,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請考試院劉建忻秘書長。"],["主席：請秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：行政院人事行政總處今天來的是陳處長。"],["主席：行政院人事總處陳處長。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長跟陳處長。今天考績法的修訂，如果結合現在整個公務人員的環境來一併思考的話，可能會得到更多的啟發。高普考的報名人數今年再創新低。"],["劉秘書長建忻：今年低。"],["莊委員瑞雄：再創新低，比去年又少了快四千，也就是整個文官體系對於要報考的人，對一般民眾來講的話，吸引力似乎……人數少了四千就代表降低了，可能大家認為在公務機關裡面的發展，跟民間做比較的話，又比較低了。","我請教人事總處，高普考人數連年下滑，對於文官環境，你們認為有沒有要如何改善的地方？"],["陳處長雅玲：報告委員，這是我們人總這幾年非常非常努力的一個課題，我們也努力在做，我們做了什麼呢？包括跟銓敘部一起做職務列等的調整，從職務結構來做因應。除了職務結構以外，該補足的人力，這也是委員一直關心的部分，我們也一直在處理中。再來是友善職場。友善職場包含什麼？包含育兒環境、考績環境、升遷的友善對待，這部分我們也都很積極在處理。針對友善的職場環境委員可能想要了解待遇部分，這也已經在進行當中，一旦有具體結果就會對外說明。以上報告。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們認為現在的公務環境與競爭力如何？"],["陳處長雅玲：這是我們一直很想解決的問題，我們實際感受到的是現在的行政壓力確實很大，所以我們一直希望能多一些行政減壓，這是我們的心聲。"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果大家認為公務人員的環境還算不錯，其實報考率應該會增加。當公務人員未必不好，但社會百花齊放，民間競爭力比較好，也許有公務人員做到一半，覺得民間比較適當的話，當然就到那邊去了。所以現在公務人員的環境與行政體系，到底還具不具備競爭力？這其實是一個很嚴肅的問題，確實需要加速改善，畢竟留住優秀的公務人員，除了行政效率會提升外，對於國家的競爭力也有很大幫助。","我現在碰到一個問題，而劉秘書長很適合回答這樣的問題，因為你的敏感度很夠，也就是民意代表索資、討資料的問題讓基層或承辦的公務人員忙得人仰馬翻。站在民意代表監督的立場，若要對此設限其實沒有道理！即便你們弄了指引給民意代表什麼樣的……不管是中央或地方，中央就是國會，或地方議會的民意代表要索資，為此說要弄個指引給他？這樣好像不符合監督的精神。我要監督你，除了秘密以外，當然會要求行政機關提供資料，這天經地義，我看現在有很多大量的索資，造成承辦公務人員很大的困擾。以現在的情況來看，如果我要監督，就必須要資料；可是我要資料，卻要不到完整的資料，因為行政機關常常隨便給，或故意缺漏，導致惡性循環！若索資不完整，我當然會再去要。以現在來看，我想請教秘書長或人總，面對因索資而造成基層公務人員過勞的問題，你們有什麼改善方案嗎？你們有在想嗎？或者有些本來該公開、可以去識別化的，或把它數位化，讓大家上網點一下就有，讓承辦公務人員在提供民意代表索資時可以達到更簡化的目的，不要造成地方……你看臺北市就是這樣子，相信中央也有可能碰到這種狀況，對此，你們有什麼良方嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，您剛剛講到的面向，我覺得是民主的代價。現在公務同仁要面對的的確很多，不管是議會、民意機關的索取資料或相關的詢問、報告，或為民服務部分，都被要求要強化！因此，這部分的確多了比較多的工作，而被要求的標準也會比較高，讓大家覺得這份工作好像漸漸變得越來越不好做。但民主制度的運行，沒有辦法避免這樣的狀況。","至於您剛剛講到索資，這部分有沒有什麼好的辦法可以減輕大家的工作量？我覺得一部分在於機關內部資料保存的方法，如果資料庫建置得比較好，會很方便同仁調出資料。像以前的統計資料是一年一年的年報，如果要調跨年的資料，譬如最近十年的資料，就要從不同的資料庫裡抓出來；但如果資料庫有年度的串聯就會比較容易抓，類似這樣的方法也許可以稍微減輕同仁的工作量。","第二個，索資對象的機關來源要求跟期待是什麼？若這部分判斷精準，也可以避免一再的重複提供，這是操作面部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我從地方民意代表上來，我知道行政體系、公務機關難免會有對抗心態，也就是不想給太多，不想給完整，若給你更完整的東西，民意代表會拿這個來修理我、拿來整我，而且新聞媒體一打下去就是鋪天蓋地，站在承辦的公務人員立場，當然會有所抗拒，但這樣會沒完沒了！我本席認為，除了秘密的東西以外、不能提供的部分以外，一般站在民意代表監督的立場，公務人員針對索資來提供，反而是應該要盡到的職責，否則民主政治設置議會要幹什麼？","人總陳處長先請回。","接下來我請教有關考績法的修正。考績法第二條明定，綜覈名實、信賞必罰。亦即如果做得好，應該給獎勵；做得不好的，就要處罰。因此，考績制度真正要回答的是：打考績到底是不是為了行政上的管理方便？當然，有考績的話，行政上的管理就會很方便，畢竟多少都會有人摸蛤蜊兼洗褲子！但我想最主要的其實還是在於提升行政效能！我當主管，考績打下去，到底是基於我對他的印象？還是人情因素？還是他在工作上的表現達到一定標準，應該給他獎勵？公務體系為了要留住人才，或要讓新的人進來，考績制度就非常、非常重要，把不適任的人……在這次的修訂裡，不適任的當然要淘汰掉，問題在於怎麼避免產生濫權？這在立法院其實討論得太多、太多了。若標準很明確，譬如重大違失，造成傷亡重大損失，這就非常清楚；若累積一大過一直累積的話……這些相對都很客觀。但你們外加的幾項裡面，譬如態度惡劣、工作推諉、工作品質不佳，或團隊合作不佳、管理失當，有關情節重大的都是很不確定的概念，我想這需要銓敘部來說明了。","對於情節重大，你們是怎麼認定的？會碰到什麼問題？你知道嗎？換言之，個別的機關裡若有主管認為你情節重大，但不同機關看法又有所不同！縱使全部都是公務機關，不同的機關是不是會有不同的標準？因此，如何避免主管主觀的標準？或者平常對涉案者、對於要被處罰的對象印象就很不好了，一旦這麼主觀，那真的沒完沒了，職場上甚至常常會因此產生霸凌。對於被處罰的人程序上的保障要怎麼去做？該怎麼保護？特別是做成重大不利處分之前，如何才能讓他得到程序上的保障？銓敘部施部長的看法為何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我先講後面的程序。就是因為知道，所以在這次修法，對於要打人家未達良好的考績時，相關程序的保障在後面條文都有很清楚的說明。前面的程序一定要先做面談、紀錄，這些完了以後還要經過考績委員會的處理。在考績委員會裡，凡被打考績未達良好者，基本上都有一定的保障，也可以到場做意見陳述，現在打丙等的人並沒有這些程序。這次就是因為覺得這部分仍舊影響重大，才會在後面做更多程序的附加，而且最後還可以提救濟。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的想法就是這樣子，你們這些程序上的保障有沒有辦法跟主管……比如對於這個主管自己的裁量，有沒有辦法跟他做對抗？我覺得這是重點；第二個，在機關裡面，也許它達到一個平衡的標準，看起來都很客觀，我這個機關就是這樣，但是跨機關的話又麻煩了，會有這樣的問題。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，其實現在所有打考績本身都是有跨機關之間的裁量、拿捏的議題，我想你應該也可以同意這樣實務上的做法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是、是。"],["施部長能傑：只是我們要講的是，我們現在把標準先框出類別，如果你要按照某一個事由去打人家「未達良好」，你一定要有具體的事實做佐證，接下來的過程你要去跟他面談，在面談時，同仁在這個過程裡面就可以跟你談說，你這樣講，但我沒有這樣想啊！有一些程序完成以後，最後機關程序完成，他還是可以去做救濟的程序，所以我覺得能做的我們努力在想辦法，一方面是回應社會，對於公務人員如果有一些比較不盡責的，我們還是要做處理；另一方面，我們注意到機關也不可以隨便濫用這個制度，而這個過程，當然未來在執行時一定會有教育宣導，或者教機關這些事情應該怎麼進行，後面一定還有事情要做。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我還發現一個問題，銓敘部對於考績獎金的制度你們沒有解決的問題就是整個激勵的問題。銓敘部以前的研究曾指出，資深但是表現普通的人領到的考績獎金反而比資淺但是表現優秀的人還要高，你修法以後這個情形還是存在，比如「良好」加年功俸最高級、「優秀」加未達年功俸最高級，這樣會讓年輕的公務人員感受到的是，我努力也不一定有回報，年資反而比我的績效還更重要，所以我想請教施部長，你們過去已經知道這個制度在這次修法裡面沒有去改善到，是否考慮把久任跟績效的部分分開？你看民間普遍都會認為，像績效獎金，做得不錯的人會有一個獎金，而久任的部分、做比較久的人則有另外一個獎金。久任就代表這個公司或者公務機關留才，而考績則代表我在工作上的表現，就是目的不同，你卻把它們綁在一起，其實你們早就已經有研議過。我是這樣建議，你可以建立一個久任獎金跟留任獎勵的制度，讓考績獎金真正回歸到考績就是針對做得好的、獎勵優秀人才這樣的本質，你要建立一個更可以鼓勵優秀人才投入公職的制度，我覺得這才是正辦，不知道你的看法如何？"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我們用二乘二的變項去處理這個事情就變成有不同的類別，我們目前的做法是，如果你達到年功俸到頂的，另外有加發一個月的獎金，其實這就有點像是資深的久任獎金，有那樣的意思，至於您提到還要把這兩個變項再做一個區隔，我們來想想看這是不是會比現在的做法更好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：公務人員的制度林林總總，因為施部長已經做很久，是老鳥了，但是站在民意機關的立場來看……"],["施部長能傑：我了解啦……"],["莊委員瑞雄：公務體系這個環境如何讓它繼續有競爭力，這個是重點。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣行政效能才會提升。其實你這個考績的制度如果沒有一個比較前瞻性的思考的話，老問題全部都還是存在。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，我自己的看法是，坦白講，我們現在考績制度的轉變是希望能夠先回應外界很多不一樣的意見，我們盡可能去做這個事情，可是我覺得真正的……我們在這次考績法裡面有一個叫做激勵獎金、即時獎勵，那才是民間的做法。在民間公司，他們不會什麼事情都是壓到年底，年底當然有另外的考績獎金，但是平常的時候，如果你覺得同仁做得好，當然主管就應該給他獎勵，我們這一次就是希望把這個東西都放上去，事實上，那個辦法也執行了，像我部裡面就開始執行了。我的意思是，我們同仁因為推動什麼、什麼事情，我覺得做得很不錯，不管是個人或者團體，機關就可以用他們的費用做一個內部的評估，然後就給了，我覺得那才真正是即時、有效果，至於獎金的額度，老實說也不會比……有些情況下它也是年終獎……以年終獎金一個月來講，他慢慢累積也是很好的一件事情，而且同仁會很清楚他為什麼獲得這個獎金，也因此被激勵，所以我們這一次是一方面有激勵獎金，一方面用「優秀」，在考績裡面就是以「優秀」等次來激勵同仁，我覺得這兩個東西是比較像民間的做法。"],["莊委員瑞雄：公務極優秀的人才，你說從公務機關流到民間機關，這也無可厚非，這很正常，我是很優秀的人，我覺得民間對我來講更有吸引力，如果他到那個地方去，你不能講什麼，每一個人人生的規劃會有所不一樣，但是在公務體系裡面，如果報考率一直降低、一直降低、一直降低，連整個公務體系都已經喪失掉整個競爭力的話，這確實是一個危機。"],["施部長能傑：這個確實是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：對於整個行政效能來講，其實你們也要去想辦法哦！"],["施部長能傑：整個政府不管是哪一個院都要共同努力的，包括每一個部會，我覺得這個事情是大家真的要共同努力的事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這個要努力，謝謝。"],["施部長能傑：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：接下來請范雲委員來詢答。教授級出馬，必定佳作！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-22","speakers":["莊瑞雄","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張雅琳","沈發惠","林倩綺","范雲","許忠信","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","林德福","許宇甄","傅崐萁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155702_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}