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謝謝主席 有請我們考試院劉建新秘書長有請秘書長我們行政院人事總署 今天來的是陳處長行政院人事總署陳處長"},{"start":27.458,"end":53.85,"text":"秘書長跟陳處長我想今天的這個整個考機法的一個修訂如果來再去做結合說現在整個公務人員的一個環境來一併的去做思考的話那可能會得到一個更多的一個啟發那高普考的報名人數比如說今年再創新低那再創新低的話就比去年又少了快4000"},{"start":55.331,"end":70.135,"text":"也就是說整個文官體系是對於要報考的人對於一般民眾來講那個吸引力似乎人數少了4000就代表降低了嘛代表降低了以後就是說這個可能"},{"start":71.348,"end":97.656,"text":"大家認為說在公務機關裡面那個地方的一個發展可能跟民間來做比較的話就會有比較低的那我來請教我們人事總署這個地方人總家說你們高普考的年數你們這樣連續的年年下滑那對文官的環境裡面你們有沒有怎麼樣的一個"},{"start":98.916,"end":126.492,"text":"認為要去改善的一個地方報告委員 這個是我們人種這幾年非常非常努力的一個課題然後我們也努力在做 我們做了什麼呢我們包括跟全序部一起在做這個植物列等的一個調整從植物結構來做因應那在植物結構以外那該補足的人力 這也是委員一直關心的這部分我們也一直在處理中那再來是整個友善職場友善職場包含什麼 就是包含育兒的環境 包含"},{"start":126.932,"end":152.822,"text":"烤雞的一個環境包含這個升遷的一個友善的一個對待這部分我們也都很積極的在處理那在就是友善的一個職場的環境部分那委員可能要也是很想要了解的是說那整個在包含待遇的部分那這個也已經在進行當中那有具體的一個結果會做對外的一個說明"},{"start":153.902,"end":179.142,"text":"你們認為現在的公務環境那個競爭力你們認為怎麼樣這個就是我們一直很想要解決的一個問題那其實很實際感受到的是現在的行政壓力確實是很大的所以我們也一直希望能夠多一些行政減壓的一個工作這是我們的心聲"},{"start":181.587,"end":191.081,"text":"其實我都覺得啦 你當公務人員 如果大家認為這個環境是還算不錯的那其實報考率應該會增加"},{"start":191.687,"end":202.634,"text":"那也未必說當公務人員不好啦那也有可能這個社會百花齊放嘛民間競爭力比較好啊 我今年要做到一半 我覺得我白天我民間有比較適當 我當然也照顧下去啦所以這個公務員這樣的一個環境行政體系裡面到底有沒有還具備競爭力喔這個其實是很嚴肅的一個問題啦我們也確實要加速的去做一個改善啦 畢竟啊"},{"start":219.105,"end":238.135,"text":"留住一些優秀的公務人員行政效率當然會提升那其實也是對於整個國家的競爭力這個都有很大的一個幫助但是我現在碰到一個問題我覺得劉秘書長也很適合去回答這樣的一個問題因為你的敏感度也很夠就是說現在民意代表所知的問題去討主流的問題"},{"start":240.966,"end":268.825,"text":"也忙的實在是讓基層的或者承辦的公務人員人仰馬翻可是你說站在民意代表監督的一個立場你要去把它做一個設限的話其實也沒有道理你說你們去弄一個指引該給民意代表什麼樣的不管是中央或者地方中央就國會或者地方議會這一些民意代表他要去所知你說弄個指引給他一些什麼"},{"start":271.446,"end":297.232,"text":"不符合這樣的一個監督的精神我要監督你除了秘密以外當然要求行政機關來提供的話那天經地義啊可是呢這個大量我看現在很多大量的這樣的一個所知也造成承辦公務人員很大的一個困擾就是說這個變成你整個以現在的情況來看的話"},{"start":298.513,"end":305.64,"text":"比如說我要監督,我就必須要資料那可是呢,我要這個資料,我又要不到完整那行政機關常常就是,我親自給你就好啦或者說故意缺漏啦那個是惡性循環啦,惡性循環啦那手資如果不完整的話,我當然會再次再去要啦"},{"start":316.05,"end":336.985,"text":"那以現在來看啦 我反而要請教MU長或者任總這個地方你們面對這種所知造成基層公務人員這樣的一個過勞你們有什麼改善的方案嗎 你們有去想嗎或者是有一些本來可以公開可以去識別化的 或者說其實把它數位化讓大家去點一下就有 還是要承辦公務人員要提供民意代表的所知的話"},{"start":344.795,"end":352.608,"text":"就可以達到更簡化的一個目的不要造成我看地方你看台北市就這樣子了嘛中央我相信也有可能碰到這種狀況你們有什麼良方嗎"},{"start":355.709,"end":384.588,"text":"跟委員報告 您剛剛講到這個面向就是我覺得就是民主的代價就是說現在公務同仁的確在面對很多就是不管是議會民意機關的索取資料或相關詢問報告或者是在為民服務的部分它都被要求要強化所以因此這個部分的確會多了比較多的工作那也會變得被要求的標準比較高我想這讓大家覺得就是說這份工作好像漸漸變得越來越不好做"},{"start":386.209,"end":399.757,"text":"但是這個因為民主制度要運行也沒有辦法說去避免這樣的一個狀況那您剛剛講到所知的部分有沒有什麼好的辦法減輕大家的工作量我覺得一個部分就是說"},{"start":402.028,"end":417.717,"text":"其實機關內部的資料保存的方法如果他的資料庫的建置是比較好的話其實同仁有的時候只是會很方便的去調的出資料那像以前譬如說我們的統計資料是每一年一年的年報"},{"start":418.658,"end":445.374,"text":"那有的時候你要去要跨年的資料說最近十年的資料是什麼他要從不同的資料庫裡面去把它抓出來但是如果你資料庫有一個年度的串聯的時候就會比較容易抓就類似這樣的方法也許可以稍微減輕一下同仁的工作量第二個當然就是說可能跟所知對象的機關來源的部分這個到底要求跟期待是什麼這個部分的判斷如果精準的話也會避免一再的重複就是說提供了錯誤的資訊就這個動作一再的重複"},{"start":447.715,"end":464.103,"text":"這個大概就是操作面的部分啦那其實喔我從地方民意代表這樣上來我看喔其實行政體系公務機關啊難免會有那種對抗的一個心態我不想給你太多我不想給你完整我給你更完整的東西你的民意代表拿這個來修理我拿來整我"},{"start":466.792,"end":482.205,"text":"那好像這個看起來就是新聞媒體一打下去新聞媒體噢鋪天蓋地站在城辦的公務人員他當然會有所抗拒的但是這沒完沒了啦這個會沒完沒了啦我本期都認為除了"},{"start":483.346,"end":512.306,"text":"秘密的東西以外不能夠提供的部分以外你一般站在民意代表監督的一個立場其實那個所知公務人員來做提供那其實反而是都是應該他應該盡到的一個職責不然民主政治設置這個議會要來幹什麼那我想接下來我要針對於考記法的一個修正人總陳處長這邊請回就是說我們考記法第二條其實明定就是說"},{"start":515.407,"end":541.475,"text":"這個 綜合名實 信賞必乏你說你如果做得好 我一定會幫你獎勵做得不好我就會幫你出發這個烤雞制度真正要去回答的是說你這個打烤雞喔 到底是為了行政上的一個管理方便當然有烤雞的話 行政上管理就很方便啦雞肝一定都沒有啦 鹹鮮果太沒但最主要其實還是提升這個整個行政的一個效能啦"},{"start":541.895,"end":557.049,"text":"那你考機的話 你說你真正說我考機打下去的話我當一個主管 我打下去到底是因為我的對他的印象還是人情的因素 還是真正他這個工作上的一個表現達到一定的一個標準 應該給他做一個獎勵喔如果說在公務體系裡面喔 你為了要留住這個人才 或者要讓新的人進來"},{"start":564.956,"end":581.467,"text":"這個考記制度我還是覺得非常非常的一個重要啦就是你怎麼樣去把不適任的人我們這次的修訂裡面不適任的當然要把它淘汰掉可是你怎麼樣去避免產生這樣的一個濫權這個在立法院裡面討論的太多太多啦你說標準如果很明確的你說重大為師造成傷亡重大損失"},{"start":591.673,"end":595.895,"text":"你說這個累積一大過一直累積上來就相對都很客觀但是我看你們這個外加的幾項裡面你說態度惡劣啦工作推諉啦工作品質不佳啦或是說團隊合作不佳管理失當這個情節重大都是很不確定的一個概念所以來 情緒部這個情緒部你要起來說因為情節重大你們要怎麼認定"},{"start":619.145,"end":640.999,"text":"會碰到什麼問題 你知道嗎所以說 個別的機關裡面可能說我是主管 我不在我面前說我因為你這個情節重大可是不同機關看法又有所不同了全部都是公務機關的時候這個不同的機關是不是會有不同的一個標準那如何去避免說主管 我主觀的自己的"},{"start":642.98,"end":656.893,"text":"標準 或者說我對這個涉案的 或者說要被處罰的一個對象對你平常印象就很不好了那些主觀 那個沒完沒了 那個真的就沒完沒了那甚至於 職場上會有一些霸凌的狀況"},{"start":657.898,"end":680.679,"text":"都常常是因為這樣子而產生啦尤其是說你現在的被處罰的人你這個程序上的一個保障要怎麼去做一個保護我認為尤其是你要做成重大不利的一個處分之前要怎麼讓他有一些程序上的一個保障我問一下全序部長 施部長你的看法"},{"start":681.399,"end":698.075,"text":"各位委員報告 我們先講後面程序啦我們因為這樣知道 所以我們這次在法裡面對於你要打人家未打良好 那個程序的保障在後面的條文都很清楚的說明我們想前面的程序一定要先做面談記錄 然後通常要這個完了以後要經過這個委員會 這個考試委員會的一個處理"},{"start":702.278,"end":724.256,"text":"國際委員會裡面當事人只要你要打他未打良好他基本上是有一定的保障他可以到場去做這個意見的一個程序我想這個就是比現在基本上都現在打平等就沒有這些程序我們這次就是因為覺得這個部分是還是影響重大所以問題後面做更多程序的一個附加"},{"start":725.137,"end":741.248,"text":"那當然最後還是可以去做救濟啊我的想法就是這樣子啦 你這些程序 程序上的一個保障有沒有辦法跟主管 比如說我這個主管 我自己的財糧有沒有辦法來跟我做一個對抗 我覺得這是重點第二個就是說 那好啦 這個機關裡面也許他達到一個平衡的標準看起來都很客觀 我這個機關就是這樣 跨機關又麻煩了會有這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":755.263,"end":777.069,"text":"我們即使現在所有的打烤機本身都是有跨機關之間的材料拿捏的一個議題這我想您應該也可以同意這樣實務上的一個做法所以只是說我們要講的是說我們現在把標準先把它匡列 類別出來這類別如果你要按照某一個室友去給人家做這個未打烤你一定要有具體的事實做佐證嘛"},{"start":777.529,"end":796.384,"text":"然後接下來過程你要去跟他面談面談 同仁當然這過程就可以跟你談說你這樣說我不這麼想啊有一些程序完成以後然後最後呢機關程序完成他還是可以去做救濟的一個程序所以我覺得能做的我們再努力再想辦法讓一般人都讓"},{"start":797.345,"end":813.295,"text":"社會上回應說我們對公務員如果有些比較不盡責我們還是要做處理因為我們注意到機關也不可以隨便去濫用這個制度這個過程當然未來在執行的時候一定有教育宣導或者怎麼教機關怎麼這些事情應該要怎麼進行這一定後面還有事情要做"},{"start":815.436,"end":832.125,"text":"其實我還發現了一個問題,就是說全序部,就是說我們的考試獎金的問題,考試獎金的一個制度,你沒有解決這個問題,就是這個解決這個整個激勵的一個問題,你以前全序部你以前的研究也有指出說,資深"},{"start":833.126,"end":853.84,"text":"但是表現普通的人考積獎金反而比之前但是表現優秀的人還要高那你修法以後還是存在你像譬如說梁豪加林宮奉最高級優秀加魏達林宮奉最高級就是這樣讓年輕工人感受到我的努力也不一定有回報連資反而比我的"},{"start":857.643,"end":864.628,"text":"績效啊 還更重要啦所以我請教市部長就是說你們過去已經知道這個制度是這間的修法裡面沒有去改善到那是不是你考慮把這個久任跟績效的部分"},{"start":872.18,"end":894.999,"text":"分開了 你看民間 民間的普遍都會認為說我這個績效獎金 這做了不錯的人 我有一個獎金你久任的部分 做比較久的人 另外一個獎金你去把它 就久任的我代表說 我公司 我公務機關 我流財嘛那考機 代表說我工作上的一個表現 就是目的不同啦"},{"start":895.78,"end":922.311,"text":"你敢做那個?你敢做那個?我不知道,其實你們早就已經有去研議過了我是這樣建議的你建立一個久任獎金跟留任獎勵的一個制度就是說讓那些考積獎金真正回歸到說考積就是要你做得好,獎勵優秀的嘛那這樣的一個本質你建立一個更可以鼓勵優秀人才投入公職的一個制度我覺得這個就是正辦,我不知道你看到什麼"},{"start":925.203,"end":951.679,"text":"跟我們報告啦我知道我們用二乘二的變相去處理這個事情就變成有不同的類別嘛我們目前的做法就是事實上如果你達到年功奉到頂的就是有另外一個月的加發一個月的那個獎金其實就是有點像是九人一般的跟他資深的九人獎金有不同的意思啦至於您提到說還要把這兩個變相再做一個區隔這個"},{"start":954.201,"end":958.984,"text":"我們來想想看是不是會比現在的做法更好啦你這個國務人員的制度恢復恢復啦你知道嗎那是說市部長你這是已經做久了 老叫了但是在我們站在民意機關的立場來看就是說"},{"start":970.171,"end":988.829,"text":"其實就是說這個公務體系這個環境如何讓它繼續有競爭力這個是重點啦你這樣行政效能才會去提升啦其實你這個考機的一個制度喔如果不再去在一個比較前瞻性的思考的話老問題全部都存在了我自己的看法啦"},{"start":992.745,"end":1021.539,"text":"我坦白講我們現在考機制度的轉變是希望能夠先回應外界很多不公的意見然後我們盡可能去做這個事情可是我覺得真正的我們在這次考機法裡面有一個叫做激勵獎金即時獎勵那才是民間的做法啦就在民間公司它不會什麼事情都是壓到那個年底嘛年底當然有另外一個考機獎金但是平常的時候如果你覺得同仁做得好"},{"start":1022.554,"end":1050.72,"text":"你當然主要就應該給他獎勵我們這一次事實上就是希望把這個東西放上去事實上那個辦法也執行了像我部裡面就開始執行了我的意思是說我同仁因為推動什麼什麼事情我覺得做得很不錯不管是個人或者團體我們就可以機關用我們的費用做一個內部的評估就給了我覺得那個才真正是及時有效果那他獎金的額度老實說也不會比"},{"start":1052.095,"end":1076.513,"text":"有些情況下他也是年終獎 你看年終獎一個月來講他慢慢累積也是很好的一個事情而且同仁會覺得很清楚What is what with something很清楚的會被激勵所以我們這一次是一方面有激勵獎金一方面有優秀在考級裡面就是以優秀等次來激勵同仁我覺得這兩個東西是比較像是民間的那個做法公務級優秀的人才你說從公務機關流到民間機關這個也無可厚非"},{"start":1081.837,"end":1097.46,"text":"這個很正常 我的很優秀的人 我覺得民間對我來講更有吸引力他到那個地方去 你不能講什麼 每一個人人生的規劃會有所不一樣但是在公務體系裡面 如果那個報考率一直降低一直降低一直降低 那個這個真的會連你整個公務體系都已經喪失掉整個競爭力的話 這個確實是一個危機喔這個對於整個行政效能來講 這其實你們也要去想辦法喔"},{"start":1106.002,"end":1114.112,"text":"這是整個政府真的要不管是哪一個院 都要共同努力包括每一個部會我覺得這個事情是大家真的要共同努力的事情好 今天很努力 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}