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司長好 副組長好我們今天談防晶片疏忠要儘速修訂貿易法規那麼投訴司的前官員轉任民間是用旋轉門嗎來 我還是程旭德之前關心的現行的戰略性高科技貨品的規範"},{"start":50.53,"end":72.137,"text":"我在這裡有一份移民具名的公文 就是圖上的 是在今年的2月11日發布的他的目的是說 要去進行戰略性高科技服務的種類根據法院依據貿易法第13條 然後第二項然後他這裡說的說 管制地區有六個國家 包括大陸地區那麼這裡面有一個很奇怪的問題"},{"start":73.397,"end":97.78,"text":"這六個國家一般在國際社會上稱為流氓國家我們打個比方啊這些就是對某些店家來講不受歡迎的客人有這六個但是其中呢大陸地區這個客人呢我們的管制項目只管制十二類請問部長現在這個輸出的管制清單是不是一萬多項有一萬多項嘛因為公告內容我去查了一下有一萬多項"},{"start":99.602,"end":114.116,"text":"HS Code的12碼 有一萬多項 但是中國大陸只管制了這12項您可以告訴我們這個嚴格嗎 我這邊查的結果呢將大陸地區列入管制區是在2003年林烏部長辯時期列進去的"},{"start":118.547,"end":142.322,"text":"到了馬政五時期 到了2011年他一樣保持大陸地區列在這幾個管制區但是關鍵出現在2012年那時候的施言翔部長就公告了一個說就是這一段前向大陸地區之輸出管制限這些設備12類的半導體晶圓製造設備其他的通通是用非管制區"},{"start":143.53,"end":171.18,"text":"部長你覺得合理嗎這六個客人不受歡迎其中五個一萬個都產品不能賣但是這個中國這個產品只有12項不能賣這不是開關門嗎包委員因為當初來講主要我們是管制我們台灣不要去中國高階的這個半導體的這個製造尤其是12吋以上的那所以說這些基本上都是晶片高階晶片還是賣啊對不對好我們告訴你"},{"start":172.18,"end":184.948,"text":"國際貿易講究自由貿易為主要的原則要任何的管制要與法有據要符合國際條約對不對我們國際貿易是個原則嘛但是我們看貿易法第十三條之一當年的立法背景沒合是不是很嚴格"},{"start":192.53,"end":212.331,"text":"瀕臨絕種的動物植物這很嚴重嗎為什麼要帶特別輸出管制因為當時有華盛頓公約嘛所以全世界國家都對這個共同限制嘛對不對是不是這樣子我都幫你講出來了也呼應了國際趨勢好為了履行瀕臨絕種動物植物的國際貿易公約所以呢我們增進了這第一項當時的立法理由好往下看"},{"start":213.112,"end":240.694,"text":"那如果我們要防止金面書中要符合遵守國際貿易協定根據這個很長就對等貿易協定跟美國對等貿易協定叫ART它裡面是不是寫的台方應有效且健全管制制度防止先進半導體及相關設備不是只有產制的設備喔要怎樣 涵蓋國家 包括哪個北韓 中國 俄羅斯 伊朗違反出口管制的呢 要進行執法經濟部做得怎麼樣了"},{"start":242.65,"end":264.337,"text":"8號委員這個是ART如果簽訂我們立法機關如果有通過的話那如果不簽訂你就不提出嗎我們仍然會盤點因為我同意剛剛提到12項因為環境已經不一樣了所以我們會再重新盤點很好 積極面對好不好那我給你一個建議我幫你想好了13條之二怎麼改"},{"start":265.077,"end":272.269,"text":"特定機體電路半導體晶圓相關製程設備及其產製品非金屬款居然虛可不得輸入大陸地區啊"},{"start":273.137,"end":297.146,"text":"就比照十二條之一的方式定了十二條之二把半導體相關這個東西這是推定項目就跟瀕臨絕種的野生動物一樣然後呢什麼地區中國大陸地區部長這樣可以嗎知不支持謝謝謝謝謝謝委員的提供那我們委員提供來講我們還要跨部門做一些討論經濟部要積極認識好不好好的好的"},{"start":297.506,"end":315.632,"text":"出口要管制但是特定資金來台要加上管制為了考慮到國家利益特定的產業資品像半導體像晶圓不能出口到像中國這種特定國家貿易法裡面這種要介入管制同樣的來自這些特定地區的資金來源投資特定公司有兩岸條例來進行管制對不對是的好那往下看"},{"start":316.252,"end":336.472,"text":"現在有一家叫做數字雲端在台灣是被美國制裁管制的公司啊美國公司制裁管制的名單他說怎樣違反美國利益他是一個中資在談的子公司叫做數字雲端赫蘭在列原因是他跟中國的軍工產業高度關聯替中國開發AI跟超級電腦嚴不嚴重有沒有違反台灣的利益"},{"start":338.666,"end":356.385,"text":"這個個案我來瞭解一下你覺得美國制裁的他這樣講的內容聽起來會不會對台灣方面有嚴重會不會您提到的是數字雲端我來瞭解一下我告訴你數字雲端怎麼來的數字雲端當年它母公司是中國浪潮在2015年未經許可就在台灣設置它違法在台灣經營機上和應用"},{"start":357.947,"end":380.112,"text":"他的薪水營運費用都是由香港的惠仲公司就這家公司後來他透過香港惠仲公司呢在2015年申請投資數字雲端多次被要求補正資料後來呢投審會給他過了在2019年他還申請增資結果在增資的申請案當中發生一個弊案這個公司呢去刑費立法委員開協調會知不知道這個事情"},{"start":381.65,"end":389.676,"text":"有沒有知不知道我沒有掌握到你回去趕快請你們同仁查一下你認為這樣的情況法院都判了脫審會有沒有疏失責任"},{"start":392.06,"end":417.986,"text":"這要了解一下 這個時候在2019年他透過增資的時候他去行會請託立法委員大家訪問上查就有他指派到辦公室主任辦理這兩個人都因為違反職務受賄罪被判刑收受賄款對投審會施壓當時的投審會的執名的張明明都是召開協調會在2020年核定他的增資部長投審會看起來法院都判了"},{"start":419.473,"end":426.09,"text":"官員沒有收賄啦是立委跟他的辦公室人員收賄被判刑了投審會員有沒有受到壓力 你覺得"},{"start":428.948,"end":454.875,"text":"這要了解一下 你趕快了解我們往下看所以民團要求啊那時候的執迷障明明下台好像不管因為可能官員整個判決沒有提到官員但是經濟部怎麼補救從2016年核准2020年增資捷拉會被施壓結果呢現在這個公司被美國制裁我們偷懲會的把關會不會失靈呢會不會是官員漏洞呢那如果這樣的話是不是要怎麼補救可不可以廢止他的登記跟撤資可不可以"},{"start":459.246,"end":481.156,"text":"各位大部份你要要研究那如果有需要要趕快補救好不好好如果真的有必要因為美國都制裁他了如果真的也認為損害台灣的國家利益過這個過程當中又疑似有不是明確有法院判決有立委來介入施壓被判刑了投審會的把關機制可能要檢討這家公司如何補救經濟部回去研究一下可以嗎"},{"start":484.228,"end":508.577,"text":"可以往下看但是我們又看到了現在當時投審會的執密呢他現在後來變成司長他是一個投處司的司長現在我們看到官網上他的職務調整中結果在理律法律事務所看到他聘他為特聘資深顧問6月30號經濟部的現任官員可以在昨天就去就任理律的法律事務所嗎可不可以這張司長是前司長嗎"},{"start":513.685,"end":518.074,"text":"他已經離開投審司了現在是退休還是離職"},{"start":519.366,"end":544.325,"text":"他現在是退休了他是退休所以退休公務員退休後只要不受到公務員服務法第16條旋轉的限制應該是主改以後他就沒有再擔任投資投審司的司長了他就變成是投資促進司的司長投促司的司長嘛對對對投促司投審會這是兩件事情但是畢竟那段經濟部官他已經不是現任官員了離職了退休了"},{"start":544.785,"end":563.898,"text":"他當然可以尋求他的第二人生發揮他在顧問累積的智慧跟專長我們都支持但是我們看一下他離職了那麼李綠這個專門在有涉入大陸小組處理兩岸投資的這個事務所聘用他當顧問你覺得社會上會怎麼看"},{"start":566.067,"end":584.883,"text":"他當年他在經濟部任職的時候他處理的是什麼?陸資來台審查的工作他現在退休了他去到一個以處理大陸兩岸投資為主的這個主改以後他就沒有擔任這樣的審查工作了是啦但是我們還是要問嘛他的業務有沒有可能有選擇門條款的適用往下看"},{"start":587.297,"end":607.017,"text":"因為按照我問過我們人士來講因為律師行業他不屬於這個規範的範圍說得很好我相信啊退休官員退休前他會問清楚但是我這裡不是質疑他的行為是認為這樣的一個程序部的含釋說法律訴訟不適用跟社會的認知差距太大"},{"start":607.677,"end":631.731,"text":"公務人員服務法說他僅認定直接關係人沒有涵蓋中間的服務機構你就看目前投審司我們的投訴司我們所有來到台灣的外資投資審查哪一個不是透過律師事務所的服務所以其實律師事務所他其實是跟我們的職務是密切相關結果你到退休後到那個地方去認職有沒有必要我們前官員去轉任法律顧問的實質影響力"},{"start":633.072,"end":656.599,"text":"經濟部是不是要跟權序部來研究一下 選舉條款的定義啊是不是要有更實質的與時俱進的一個調整部長你覺得咧但是我們還是尊重這個 權序部的職點是 你們當然尊重權序部但是我還是跟委員再補充一句就是說張明斌基本上他在卸任前 他已經不是投審司的司長他是投資出軍司 所以他不"},{"start":657.399,"end":677.736,"text":"沒有參與審議的工作了但是他過去的職業生涯在進一步任職期間啊他有很長的業務對象就是像理律事務所這樣的那不能說他過去的業務有對象他就不能去轉任這我也理解法律要明文規定但是這樣的法律的規範是否跟社會的認知會有一個什麼差異"},{"start":678.897,"end":702.995,"text":"民團又詫異說這個以前經濟部都是專門負責入資投資審議的都是理律在辦現在結束後到理律去外界會怎麼感覺部長我是擔心外界有一些聯想是不是把這個部分拿去也跟全新部提出來表達他們這樣的含釋是不是要因應著實況的特殊條件情況下要更明確的讓公務員有所預詢好不好"},{"start":704.684,"end":707.306,"text":"對數字雲端我們來瞭解一下可以嗎最後關於投審會的前官員不管了其實這個事情"},{"start":735.024,"end":750.357,"text":"轉任法律律師事務所的特別顧問這個部分是不是在實質上已經是我們公務員服務法選擇委員條款所要的規範的對象請你跟全職部來做一個研討好不好好那就一樣一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎好可以好謝謝好謝謝鍾小平委員謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:40.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:44.325000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:44.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:49.930000+08:00","text":"有請經濟部龔部長、法制司羅司長以及廉政署林副署長。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:50.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:53.954000+08:00","text":"龔部長、法制司，還有廉政署。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:56.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:57.129000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:35:58.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:35:59.772000+08:00","text":"部長好、司長好、副署長好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:00.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:07.922000+08:00","text":"我今天談防晶片輸中儘速修訂貿易法規、投促司前官員轉任適用旋轉門嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:07.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:14.329000+08:00","text":"我還是在程序之前關心現行「戰略性高科技貨品」規範。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:15.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:35.336000+08:00","text":"我在這裡有一份以您具名的公文，就是圖上的，這是今年2月11日發布的，目的是要去修正戰略性高科技貨物的種類，法源依據是貿易法第十三條第二項規定，管制地區有6個國家，包括大陸地區。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:36.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:36:54.973000+08:00","text":"這裡面有很奇怪的問題，這6個國家一般在國際社會上稱為流氓國家，我們打個比方，這些就是對某些店家來講，不受歡迎的客人有這6個，但是其中對大陸地區這個客人，我們的管制項目只管制12類。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:36:54.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:00.478000+08:00","text":"請問部長，現在輸出入管制清單是不是一萬多項？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:00.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:02.780000+08:00","text":"有一萬多項，因為我去查了一下公告內容有一萬多項。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:04.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:05.983000+08:00","text":"對，HS Code（貨品分類號列）。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:06.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:14.111000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，有一萬多項，但是中國大陸只管制了這12類，您可以告訴我們這嚴格嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:14.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:19.096000+08:00","text":"我這邊查的結果，將大陸地區列入管制區，是2003年林義夫部長在扁政府時期列進去的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:23.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:47.322000+08:00","text":"到了2011年馬政府時期，一樣保持大陸地區列在這幾個管制區；但是關鍵出現在2012年施顏祥部長就公告了，前項大陸地區之輸出管制限這些設備等12類半導體晶圓製造設備，其他的通通適用非管制區。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:48.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:50.031000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:50.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:37:59.734000+08:00","text":"這6個客人不受歡迎，其中5個一萬多項產品不能賣，但是中國這個客人只有12類不能賣，這不是開後門嗎？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:37:59.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:12.498000+08:00","text":"報告委員，因為當初來講，主要我們是管制臺灣不要去中國投資高階半導體製造，尤其是12吋以上的，所以這些基本上都跟製造……","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:12.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:15.520000+08:00","text":"但是高階晶片還是賣，對不對？對。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:15.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:24.445000+08:00","text":"好，我們告訴你，國際貿易講究自由貿易為主要的原則，任何管制要於法有據、要符合國際條約，對不對？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:24.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:27.967000+08:00","text":"我們國際貿易是個原則嘛，但是我們以貿易法第十三條之一規定，瀕臨絕種動植物及其產製品，非經主管機關許可，不得輸出，也不得輸入。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:28.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:29.468000+08:00","text":"當年的立法背景為何？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:29.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:29.928000+08:00","text":"是不是很嚴格？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:37.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:39.832000+08:00","text":"瀕臨絕種動植物這很嚴重嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:39.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:40.914000+08:00","text":"為什麼要特別輸出管制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:41.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:48.041000+08:00","text":"因為當時有華盛頓公約，所以全世界的國家都對這個共同限制，對不對？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:48.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:48.402000+08:00","text":"是不是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:48.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:49.283000+08:00","text":"我都幫你講出來了。是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:49.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:38:56.450000+08:00","text":"這也呼應了國際趨勢，為履行瀕臨絕種動植物國際貿易公約，所以我們增訂了第一項，這是當時的立法理由。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:38:56.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:24.272000+08:00","text":"往下看，如果我們要防止晶片輸中、遵守國際貿易協定……駐美國台北經濟文化代表處與美國在台協會關於臺灣與美國間對等貿易協定（ART）裡面是不是寫了，臺方應維持有效且健全之出口管制制度，防止先進半導體及相關設備，不是只有產製的設備，要涵蓋的國家包括北韓、中國、俄羅斯、伊朗，違反出口管制的要進行執法。","quality":0.712},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:25.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:25.674000+08:00","text":"經濟部做得怎麼樣了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:27.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:33.332000+08:00","text":"報告委員，ART如果簽訂，立法機關如果也通過的話……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:33.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:36.013000+08:00","text":"如果不簽訂，你就不提出嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:36.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:43.575000+08:00","text":"我們仍然會盤點，因為我同意剛剛提到12類，因為環境已經不一樣了，所以我們會再重新盤點。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:43.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:45.316000+08:00","text":"很好，積極面對，好不好？對！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:45.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:49.317000+08:00","text":"那我給你一個建議，我幫你想好了，第十三條之二怎麼改？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:50.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:39:57.249000+08:00","text":"特定積體電路、半導體晶圓相關製程設備及其產製品，非經主管機關許可，不得輸出至大陸地區。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:39:58.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:07.160000+08:00","text":"就比照第十三條之一的方式增訂第十三條之二，把半導體及相關特定產品，就跟瀕臨絕種的野生動物一樣處理。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:08.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:09.221000+08:00","text":"什麼地區？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:09.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:10.882000+08:00","text":"中國大陸地區。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:10.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:12.502000+08:00","text":"部長，這樣可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:12.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:14.683000+08:00","text":"支不支持？謝謝！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:14.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:20.465000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提供，以委員提供的內容來講，我們還要跨部門討論一下。","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:20.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:22.126000+08:00","text":"很好，經濟部要積極任事，好不好？好的。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:22.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:33.149000+08:00","text":"出口要管制，但是特定資金來臺要加強管制，為了考慮到國家利益，特定產業製品像半導體晶圓不能出口到像中國這種國家─貿易法要介入管制的國家。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:33.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:40:39.932000+08:00","text":"同樣的，來自特定地區的資金來源，投資特定公司也有兩岸條例進行管制，對不對？是的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:40:41.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:00.291000+08:00","text":"現在在臺灣有一家叫「數字雲端」，是被美國制裁管制名單的公司，因為它違反美國利益，它是中資在臺的子公司，叫做數字雲端，赫然在列，原因是它跟中國軍工產業高度關聯，替中國開發AI跟超級電腦，嚴不嚴重？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:00.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:01.452000+08:00","text":"有沒有違反臺灣的利益？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:03.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:04.587000+08:00","text":"這個個案我來了解一下。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:04.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:08.551000+08:00","text":"你覺得美國制裁講的內容，聽起來會不會對臺灣方面也很嚴重？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:09.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:10.473000+08:00","text":"會不會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:10.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:13.857000+08:00","text":"您提到的是數字雲端，我來了解一下。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:14.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:15.159000+08:00","text":"好，我告訴你數字雲端怎麼來的？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:16.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:26.708000+08:00","text":"數字雲端當年的母公司是中國浪潮，在2015年未經許可就在臺灣設置，它違法在臺灣經營機上盒應用，它的薪水、營運費用都是由香港的匯眾公司。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:27.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:34.490000+08:00","text":"後來它透過香港匯眾公司在2015年申請投資數字雲端，多次被要求補正資料，後來投審會給它過了。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:34.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:44.592000+08:00","text":"在2019年它還申請增資，結果在增資的申請案當中發生一個弊案，這個公司去行賄立法委員開協調會。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:44.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:45.092000+08:00","text":"知不知道這個事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:46.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:47.050000+08:00","text":"知不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:47.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:48.050000+08:00","text":"我沒有掌握。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:47.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:50.192000+08:00","text":"沒有掌握到，你回去趕快請你們同仁查一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:50.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:54.656000+08:00","text":"你認為這樣的情況，法院都判了，投審會有沒有疏失、責任？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:57.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:41:58.280000+08:00","text":"這要了解一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:41:59.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:04.822000+08:00","text":"來，我再跟你講，它在2019年透過增資的時候，去行賄、請託立法委員，大家網路上查就有。","quality":0.697},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:05.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:19.725000+08:00","text":"立委指派他的辦公室主任辦理，這兩個人都因為違反職務收賄罪被判刑收受賄款，對投審會施壓，當時投審會的執秘張銘斌多次召開協調會，在2020年核定它的增資。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:19.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:30.449000+08:00","text":"部長，法院都判了，投審會官員沒有收賄，是立委跟他的辦公室主任收賄被判刑了，你覺得投審會有沒有受到壓力？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:33.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:34.888000+08:00","text":"我還是要了解一下。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:35.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:36.049000+08:00","text":"好，你還要了解，你趕快了解。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:37.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:45.991000+08:00","text":"所以那時候民團要求執秘張銘斌下臺，先不管，因為整個判決沒有提到官員，但是經濟部怎麼補救？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:46.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:50.172000+08:00","text":"從2016年核准，2022年增資，協調會被施壓，結果呢？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:50.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:51.512000+08:00","text":"現在這個公司被美國制裁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:52.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:53.933000+08:00","text":"我們投審會的把關會不會失靈呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:54.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:55.754000+08:00","text":"會不會是國安有漏洞呢？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:56.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:57.774000+08:00","text":"如果這樣的話，要怎麼補救？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:42:58.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:42:59.694000+08:00","text":"可不可以廢止它的登記跟撤資？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:04.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:08.988000+08:00","text":"這個部分你還要研究，如果有需要，要趕快補救好不好？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:09.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:24.095000+08:00","text":"如果真的有必要，因為美國都制裁它了，如果真的也認為損害到臺灣的國家利益，這個過程當中，明確有法院判決有立委來介入施壓，被判刑了，投審會的把關機制可能要檢討。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:24.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:26.156000+08:00","text":"經濟部如何補救，回去研究一下可以嗎？好。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:30.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:53.176000+08:00","text":"但是我們又看到了，當時投審會的執秘後來變成司長，他是投促司的司長，現在我們看到官網上是他的職務調整中，結果6月30號在理律法律事務所官網看到被聘為特聘資深顧問，經濟部的現任官員可以在昨天就去理律法律事務所就任嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:53.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:53.396000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:53.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:43:53.577000+08:00","text":"這位張司長是前司長嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:43:58.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:01.431000+08:00","text":"他已經離開投審司了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:01.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:03.074000+08:00","text":"現在是退休還是離職？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:04.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:05.187000+08:00","text":"他現在退休了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:05.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:11.632000+08:00","text":"他是退休，所以公務員退休後，只要不受到公務員服務法第十六條旋轉門的限制……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:12.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:21.139000+08:00","text":"報告委員，應該是組改以後他就沒有再擔任投審司的司長了，他變成投資促進司的司長。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:21.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:22.920000+08:00","text":"對啊，投促司的司長嘛？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:22.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:26.563000+08:00","text":"對，投促司、投審會，這是兩件事情，但是畢竟都在經濟部。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:27.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:34.848000+08:00","text":"他已經不是現任官員，離職了、退休了，他當然可以尋求他的第二人生，發揮他在公職累積的智慧跟專長，我們都支持。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:35.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:48.878000+08:00","text":"但是我們看一下，他離職了，而理律是專門設有大陸小組處理兩岸投資的事務所，聘用他當顧問，你覺得社會上會怎麼看？","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:51.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:54.490000+08:00","text":"當年他在經濟部任職的時候，他處理過什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:44:54.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:44:59.874000+08:00","text":"陸資來臺審查的工作，他現在退休了，他去到一個以處理大陸兩岸投資為主的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:00.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:02.777000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我剛剛提到了，組改以後他就沒有擔任這樣的審查工作了，他現在是……","quality":0.531},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:03.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:09.582000+08:00","text":"是啦，但是我們還是要問，他的業務有沒有可能有旋轉門條款的適用？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:14.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:18.423000+08:00","text":"我問過我們的人事，因為律師行業不屬於規範的範圍……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:18.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:31.996000+08:00","text":"說得很好，我相信退休的官員退休前他會問清楚，但是我這裡不是質疑他的行為，是認為這一個銓敘部的函釋，說法律事務所不適用，跟社會的認知差距太大。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:32.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:45.305000+08:00","text":"公務人員服務法說，他僅認定直接關係人，沒有涵蓋中間的服務機構，你去看看目前我們的投審司跟投促司，所有來到臺灣的外資投資審查，哪一個不是透過律師事務所的服務？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:45.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:45:53.810000+08:00","text":"所以律師事務所其實跟我們的職務密切相關，結果你退休後到那個地方去任職有沒有必要？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:45:54.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:01.413000+08:00","text":"我們前官員去轉任法律顧問的實質影響力，經濟部是不是要跟銓敘部研究一下旋轉門條款的定義？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:02.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:04.574000+08:00","text":"是不是要有更實質的、與時俱進的調整？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:05.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:05.994000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:07.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:10.036000+08:00","text":"但是我們還是尊重銓敘部的職權……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:10.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:11.276000+08:00","text":"是，你們當然要尊重銓敘部，但是銓……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:11.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:23.820000+08:00","text":"但是我還是跟委員再補充一句，就是張銘斌基本上在卸任前已經不是投審司的司長，他是投資促進司，所以他組改之後沒有參與審議的工作了。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:24.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:32.348000+08:00","text":"但是他過去的職業生涯，在經濟部任職期間，他很長時間的業務對象就是像理律事務所這樣的……是。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:33.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:42.736000+08:00","text":"不能說他過去的業務對象他就不能轉任，這我也理解，法律要明文規定，但是這樣的法律規範是否跟社會的認知會有差異？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:43.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:46:53.144000+08:00","text":"民團就詫異說，這個以前在經濟部都是負責陸資投資審議的，都是理律在辦，現在他卸任後到理律去，外界會有什麼感覺？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:46:53.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.975000+08:00","text":"部長，我是擔心外界有一些聯想，是不是也把這個部分拿去跟銓敘部提出來，表達他們這樣的函釋在因應實務的特殊情況下，是不是要更明確讓公務員有所依循，好不好？","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:07.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:08.975000+08:00","text":"可不可以？好的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：本席的訴求","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:08.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:09.975000+08:00","text":"防堵高階晶片輸往中國，經濟部應儘速修訂貿易法，增訂第十三條之二，限制半導體晶片輸出到中國。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：本席的訴求","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:09.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:10.975000+08:00","text":"可以考慮研議嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱：本席的訴求","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:10.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:11.975000+08:00","text":"還是正在做了？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:11.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:12.975000+08:00","text":"可以，我們正在研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:12.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:13.975000+08:00","text":"正在做了？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:13.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:14.975000+08:00","text":"針對數字雲端公司是不是中資投資在臺灣，損及到臺灣包括美國的國家利益，經濟部是不是要重新徹查，一個月內交一個書面報告，對數字雲端我們來了解一下，可以嗎？","quality":0.203},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:14.975000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:15.975000+08:00","text":"好，可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:10.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:52.094000+08:00","text":"最後，關於投審會的前官員轉任法律事務所特別顧問這個事情，是不是在實質上已經是我們公務人員服務法旋轉門條款所要規範的對象，請你跟銓敘部研討，好不好？好。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:52.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:54.897000+08:00","text":"那就一樣，一個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:55.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:55.157000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:55.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:55.357000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:55.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:58.428429+08:00","text":"接下來我們休息8分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:47:58.728429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:47:59.871286+08:00","text":"休息（10時48分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:48:00.171286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:48:01.885571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（10時57分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:48:02.185571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:48:03.899857+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T10:48:04.199857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T10:48:07.628429+08:00","text":"接下來有請鄭天財委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":983,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時35分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請經濟部龔部長、法制司羅司長以及廉政署林副署長。"],["主席：龔部長、法制司，還有廉政署。"],["龔部長明鑫：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、司長好、副署長好。我今天談防晶片輸中儘速修訂貿易法規、投促司前官員轉任適用旋轉門嗎？我還是在程序之前關心現行「戰略性高科技貨品」規範。我在這裡有一份以您具名的公文，就是圖上的，這是今年2月11日發布的，目的是要去修正戰略性高科技貨物的種類，法源依據是貿易法第十三條第二項規定，管制地區有6個國家，包括大陸地區。這裡面有很奇怪的問題，這6個國家一般在國際社會上稱為流氓國家，我們打個比方，這些就是對某些店家來講，不受歡迎的客人有這6個，但是其中對大陸地區這個客人，我們的管制項目只管制12類。請問部長，現在輸出入管制清單是不是一萬多項？有一萬多項，因為我去查了一下公告內容有一萬多項。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，HS Code（貨品分類號列）。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，有一萬多項，但是中國大陸只管制了這12類，您可以告訴我們這嚴格嗎？我這邊查的結果，將大陸地區列入管制區，是2003年林義夫部長在扁政府時期列進去的。到了2011年馬政府時期，一樣保持大陸地區列在這幾個管制區；但是關鍵出現在2012年施顏祥部長就公告了，前項大陸地區之輸出管制限這些設備等12類半導體晶圓製造設備，其他的通通適用非管制區。部長，你覺得合理嗎？這6個客人不受歡迎，其中5個一萬多項產品不能賣，但是中國這個客人只有12類不能賣，這不是開後門嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，因為當初來講，主要我們是管制臺灣不要去中國投資高階半導體製造，尤其是12吋以上的，所以這些基本上都跟製造……"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是高階晶片還是賣，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們告訴你，國際貿易講究自由貿易為主要的原則，任何管制要於法有據、要符合國際條約，對不對？我們國際貿易是個原則嘛，但是我們以貿易法第十三條之一規定，瀕臨絕種動植物及其產製品，非經主管機關許可，不得輸出，也不得輸入。當年的立法背景為何？是不是很嚴格？瀕臨絕種動植物這很嚴重嗎？為什麼要特別輸出管制？因為當時有華盛頓公約，所以全世界的國家都對這個共同限制，對不對？是不是這樣子？我都幫你講出來了。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這也呼應了國際趨勢，為履行瀕臨絕種動植物國際貿易公約，所以我們增訂了第一項，這是當時的立法理由。往下看，如果我們要防止晶片輸中、遵守國際貿易協定……駐美國台北經濟文化代表處與美國在台協會關於臺灣與美國間對等貿易協定（ART）裡面是不是寫了，臺方應維持有效且健全之出口管制制度，防止先進半導體及相關設備，不是只有產製的設備，要涵蓋的國家包括北韓、中國、俄羅斯、伊朗，違反出口管制的要進行執法。經濟部做得怎麼樣了？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，ART如果簽訂，立法機關如果也通過的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果不簽訂，你就不提出嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們仍然會盤點，因為我同意剛剛提到12類，因為環境已經不一樣了，所以我們會再重新盤點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，積極面對，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：對！"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我給你一個建議，我幫你想好了，第十三條之二怎麼改？特定積體電路、半導體晶圓相關製程設備及其產製品，非經主管機關許可，不得輸出至大陸地區。就比照第十三條之一的方式增訂第十三條之二，把半導體及相關特定產品，就跟瀕臨絕種的野生動物一樣處理。什麼地區？中國大陸地區。部長，這樣可以嗎？支不支持？"],["龔部長明鑫：謝謝！謝謝委員提供，以委員提供的內容來講，我們還要跨部門討論一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，經濟部要積極任事，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：出口要管制，但是特定資金來臺要加強管制，為了考慮到國家利益，特定產業製品像半導體晶圓不能出口到像中國這種國家─貿易法要介入管制的國家。同樣的，來自特定地區的資金來源，投資特定公司也有兩岸條例進行管制，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在在臺灣有一家叫「數字雲端」，是被美國制裁管制名單的公司，因為它違反美國利益，它是中資在臺的子公司，叫做數字雲端，赫然在列，原因是它跟中國軍工產業高度關聯，替中國開發AI跟超級電腦，嚴不嚴重？有沒有違反臺灣的利益？"],["龔部長明鑫：這個個案我來了解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得美國制裁講的內容，聽起來會不會對臺灣方面也很嚴重？會不會？"],["龔部長明鑫：您提到的是數字雲端，我來了解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你數字雲端怎麼來的？數字雲端當年的母公司是中國浪潮，在2015年未經許可就在臺灣設置，它違法在臺灣經營機上盒應用，它的薪水、營運費用都是由香港的匯眾公司。後來它透過香港匯眾公司在2015年申請投資數字雲端，多次被要求補正資料，後來投審會給它過了。在2019年它還申請增資，結果在增資的申請案當中發生一個弊案，這個公司去行賄立法委員開協調會。知不知道這個事情？知不知道？"],["龔部長明鑫：我沒有掌握。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有掌握到，你回去趕快請你們同仁查一下。你認為這樣的情況，法院都判了，投審會有沒有疏失、責任？"],["龔部長明鑫：這要了解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我再跟你講，它在2019年透過增資的時候，去行賄、請託立法委員，大家網路上查就有。立委指派他的辦公室主任辦理，這兩個人都因為違反職務收賄罪被判刑收受賄款，對投審會施壓，當時投審會的執秘張銘斌多次召開協調會，在2020年核定它的增資。部長，法院都判了，投審會官員沒有收賄，是立委跟他的辦公室主任收賄被判刑了，你覺得投審會有沒有受到壓力？"],["龔部長明鑫：我還是要了解一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，你還要了解，你趕快了解。所以那時候民團要求執秘張銘斌下臺，先不管，因為整個判決沒有提到官員，但是經濟部怎麼補救？從2016年核准，2022年增資，協調會被施壓，結果呢？現在這個公司被美國制裁。我們投審會的把關會不會失靈呢？會不會是國安有漏洞呢？如果這樣的話，要怎麼補救？可不可以廢止它的登記跟撤資？這個部分你還要研究，如果有需要，要趕快補救好不好？如果真的有必要，因為美國都制裁它了，如果真的也認為損害到臺灣的國家利益，這個過程當中，明確有法院判決有立委來介入施壓，被判刑了，投審會的把關機制可能要檢討。經濟部如何補救，回去研究一下可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們又看到了，當時投審會的執秘後來變成司長，他是投促司的司長，現在我們看到官網上是他的職務調整中，結果6月30號在理律法律事務所官網看到被聘為特聘資深顧問，經濟部的現任官員可以在昨天就去理律法律事務所就任嗎？可不可以？這位張司長是前司長嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：他已經離開投審司了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在是退休還是離職？"],["龔部長明鑫：他現在退休了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是退休，所以公務員退休後，只要不受到公務員服務法第十六條旋轉門的限制……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，應該是組改以後他就沒有再擔任投審司的司長了，他變成投資促進司的司長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對啊，投促司的司長嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，投促司、投審會，這是兩件事情，但是畢竟都在經濟部。他已經不是現任官員，離職了、退休了，他當然可以尋求他的第二人生，發揮他在公職累積的智慧跟專長，我們都支持。但是我們看一下，他離職了，而理律是專門設有大陸小組處理兩岸投資的事務所，聘用他當顧問，你覺得社會上會怎麼看？當年他在經濟部任職的時候，他處理過什麼？陸資來臺審查的工作，他現在退休了，他去到一個以處理大陸兩岸投資為主的……"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，我剛剛提到了，組改以後他就沒有擔任這樣的審查工作了，他現在是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啦，但是我們還是要問，他的業務有沒有可能有旋轉門條款的適用？"],["龔部長明鑫：我問過我們的人事，因為律師行業不屬於規範的範圍……"],["鍾委員佳濱：說得很好，我相信退休的官員退休前他會問清楚，但是我這裡不是質疑他的行為，是認為這一個銓敘部的函釋，說法律事務所不適用，跟社會的認知差距太大。公務人員服務法說，他僅認定直接關係人，沒有涵蓋中間的服務機構，你去看看目前我們的投審司跟投促司，所有來到臺灣的外資投資審查，哪一個不是透過律師事務所的服務？所以律師事務所其實跟我們的職務密切相關，結果你退休後到那個地方去任職有沒有必要？我們前官員去轉任法律顧問的實質影響力，經濟部是不是要跟銓敘部研究一下旋轉門條款的定義？是不是要有更實質的、與時俱進的調整？部長，你覺得呢？"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我們還是尊重銓敘部的職權……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，你們當然要尊重銓敘部，但是銓……"],["龔部長明鑫：但是我還是跟委員再補充一句，就是張銘斌基本上在卸任前已經不是投審司的司長，他是投資促進司，所以他組改之後沒有參與審議的工作了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是他過去的職業生涯，在經濟部任職期間，他很長時間的業務對象就是像理律事務所這樣的……"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不能說他過去的業務對象他就不能轉任，這我也理解，法律要明文規定，但是這樣的法律規範是否跟社會的認知會有差異？民團就詫異說，這個以前在經濟部都是負責陸資投資審議的，都是理律在辦，現在他卸任後到理律去，外界會有什麼感覺？部長，我是擔心外界有一些聯想，是不是也把這個部分拿去跟銓敘部提出來，表達他們這樣的函釋在因應實務的特殊情況下，是不是要更明確讓公務員有所依循，好不好？可不可以？"],["龔部長明鑫：好的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：本席的訴求：防堵高階晶片輸往中國，經濟部應儘速修訂貿易法，增訂第十三條之二，限制半導體晶片輸出到中國。可以考慮研議嗎？還是正在做了？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以，我們正在研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：正在做了？好。針對數字雲端公司是不是中資投資在臺灣，損及到臺灣包括美國的國家利益，經濟部是不是要重新徹查，一個月內交一個書面報告，對數字雲端我們來了解一下，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，關於投審會的前官員轉任法律事務所特別顧問這個事情，是不是在實質上已經是我們公務人員服務法旋轉門條款所要規範的對象，請你跟銓敘部研討，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就一樣，一個月內提出書面報告，可以嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝部長。","接下來我們休息8分鐘。","休息（10時48分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來有請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}