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劉秘書長請劉秘書長秘書長好好久不見好久不見我們卓政府以及考試院"},{"start":24.758,"end":53.141,"text":"我最欣賞的一男一女的公務人員,男的就是您也就是說您相互從功,盡忠職守有一陣子我在學校看到您身體不適,我非常的擔心您從外讀會到現在為台灣的打拼,我非常的感動你的是楊真你,所以我今天要來請教秘書長"},{"start":54.741,"end":82.002,"text":"我星期一到教育部去質詢什麼叫霸凌到底楊真尼是霸凌人還是被霸凌這個是我要請教秘書長因為貴院裡面有公務員保障培訓委員會所以公務員保障是貴院的職責"},{"start":83.382,"end":108.134,"text":"有任何一個公務人員受到冤屈不是只有考積還有替他申願剛才我們莊瑞雄委員有提到考積的考核有可能涉及到霸凌的問題所以給我今天切入這個主題的上台階非常謝謝我們召委我今天不講日語"},{"start":112.639,"end":127.111,"text":"我們就講中文講是以杜鬼良為之鬼取材以張物材為之物辯等列 順哨長 官司之首也現在我看到楊真理被調查出來他的行為被認定霸凌"},{"start":138.922,"end":147.248,"text":"竟然是以冒犯方式多次否定部署的意見打斷部署的花園這樣就構成霸凌秘書長您贊同"},{"start":155.554,"end":179.512,"text":"各位報告我們在保障法或是職安法裡面的確會就是說大家重視霸凌這個事情所以會有霸凌的定義但這個定義當然就是說文字文字是沒有辦法完整的去表達說怎麼樣定義說到底怎麼樣構成哪些要件就一定構成霸凌或一定不構成所以他還是要看他整個事情的脈絡所以這就是調查小組的"},{"start":180.413,"end":207.89,"text":"必須要見證存在的意義我真的很想打斷林花園但是打斷花園會構成霸凌所以我不會所以這個要看前後文要看那個場景要看那個整體的狀況啦所以回答您的問題就是說如果只是從文字上面來看說這樣是不是就構成霸凌這幾個文字當然沒有辦法去一概而論我去請教過教育部教育部給我霸凌的定義非常的嚴謹的"},{"start":209.468,"end":226.998,"text":"不可能這樣就過成霸凌對 他其實霸凌這個概念本來在教育部的法規裡面是先出現所以後來勞動部或保訓會這邊在修相關法定的時候也會去參考他的這個定義啦但是我就是說所以重點是要看整個的前後"},{"start":229.159,"end":255.696,"text":"羅關係還有整個情節是什麼那這件事他沒有辦法從最後行政院新聞稿的三言兩語裡面可能就讓大家覺得那麼清楚的表達但是他一定有一個詳盡的調查律師長我沒有霸凌你的意思完全沒有覺得這樣子我們的貿易談判代表是您跟我在替台灣打拚的時候我在訪ECFA的時候一直主張我們台灣要訪美國設立USTR"},{"start":257.637,"end":285.533,"text":"US Trade Representative所以我們成立談判代表這個辦公室這個談判代表必須要英文好國際經貿法的談判能力技巧又要好我們現在顏慧欣副代表先世我非常難過去世了一個副代表結果我們現在行政院砸了一個政代表總代表"},{"start":288.245,"end":314.955,"text":"請問我們行政院現在要跟美國等其他國家談判我們誰要上陣呢這是我最擔心的一件事情我們因為媒體受到一些力量的操弄把這麼優秀的公務人員把他砸了我個人認為非常不應該所以今天"},{"start":316.209,"end":341.454,"text":"我才在這裡請教您我也知道您非常的幽默有文學方面的造詣莫里埃他的經典台劇我們在英國都時常講到那句叫《貴人迷》中文翻譯叫《貴人迷》他的主角蒙西威·朱頓他有一句經典語錄"},{"start":342.984,"end":350.267,"text":"他要去學散文,其實他已經自己講了散文四十年,他不知道,如果霸凌這麼容易成立的話,"},{"start":361.26,"end":383.701,"text":"我許中信不是只有在立法委員霸凌劉建新秘書長而已我打電影發言而且我剛才對你講話的方式也是冒犯沒有禮貌所以我也是霸凌了您完全沒有這個感覺原來我也霸凌了好久我的部署我的同仁因為霸凌這麼容易過場"},{"start":386.64,"end":413.746,"text":"這樣對楊真理公平嗎他為國家犧牲奉獻我從21年前代表台灣自顧去日內瓦做研究認識他他的英文能力他的國際經貿法的專業以及談判的技巧不輸給蔡英文總統而我們用這樣一個"},{"start":415.563,"end":436.794,"text":"莫須有的罪名把他砸了而且讓他一輩子的公務人員他所付出的不只付諸流血不是只有付諸流水而且是他人生受到一個很大的不公平所以今天我們的公務人員保障委員會如何來保障他"},{"start":441.731,"end":468.593,"text":"公務員報告 因為那個楊代表是楊政委其實以前是一個非常優秀的文官工作表現我想大家都有目共睹對國家也都有貢獻這部分我們不會抹殺他那但是他現在身份是政務人員那在政務人員的身份上他沒有辦法受到公務員保障委員會的這個救濟的那個管道的確是這樣但是我們行政院現在的做法"},{"start":469.946,"end":497.077,"text":"真的沒有給他基本的權力因為那個調查沒有很充分徹底也沒有給他陳述意見的機會只是去問了幾個想要取代他的人各位我們總談判代表當然旁邊也有人想要取代他結果我們談判代表辦公室70%的部署非常肯定他"},{"start":498.14,"end":519.593,"text":"所以表示我們在調查的時候不徹底,也沒有讓他陳述的機會我今天沒有受他的請託,我今天是義憤填膺我因為台灣喪失了這樣一個人才,我怕產生寒蟬效應將來台灣公務人員不願意替國家做事"},{"start":520.543,"end":549.696,"text":"因為一個好的長官他帶部署如果他比較急迫想要有所進展有所成績當然有時候會對部署比較沒有那麼客氣有時候部署講話會把他打斷因為時間不是很長那這個一定會有的怎麼會這樣過成一個霸凌而行政院對他的處理我認為是霸凌"},{"start":550.819,"end":577.507,"text":"我認為行政院對他是霸凌他所以我今天來請教我們秘書長你有沒有辦法以你的影響力再給他救濟委員這個第一個這可能就是要看相關的制度那至於說您對於這個調查的結果的不同意見這個個案上我真的沒有辦法去幫行政院說明或評論"},{"start":580.189,"end":606.627,"text":"但這個因為從考試院的角度來說公務員保障委員會是保障文官權益所以的確他這個保障的對象不包含政務人員秘書長我跟您報告一個故事姚營在我們台南在鴉片戰爭表現非常好清廷對他看似扁其實是生所以我個人建議秘書長"},{"start":608.151,"end":629.704,"text":"我知道連總統都尊重你三分尊重你三分這是我個人私底下知道總統非常肯定你這一次雖然讓他受到傷害這個人才不可失我們應該把他調升這是我對您的這個期許也是拜託謝謝您"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.349000+08:00","text":"（11時）主席，有請考試院秘書長劉秘書長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.369000+08:00","text":"請劉秘書長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.369000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:06.369000+08:00","text":"許委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:06.369000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:07.369000+08:00","text":"好久不見！","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.389000+08:00","text":"秘書長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.570000+08:00","text":"好久不見！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:05.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:00:53.197000+08:00","text":"卓政府以及考試院中，我最欣賞的一男一女的公務人員，男的就是您，也就是說您枵腹從公、盡忠職守，有一陣子我在學校看到您身體不適，我非常的擔心，您從外獨會到現在為臺灣的打拼，我非常的感動。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:00:53.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:01:05.686000+08:00","text":"女的則是楊珍妮，所以我今天要來請教秘書長，我星期一到教育部去質詢什麼叫霸凌？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:01:06.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:01:12.291000+08:00","text":"到底楊珍妮是霸凌人，還是被霸凌？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:01:14.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:01:37.627000+08:00","text":"這個是我要請教秘書長的，因為貴院裡面有公務人員保障暨培訓委員會，所以公務員保障是貴院的職責，有任何一個公務人員受到冤屈，不是只有考績，還要替他申冤。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:01:39.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:01:52.614000+08:00","text":"剛才莊瑞雄委員有提到，考績的考核有可能涉及到霸凌的問題，剛好給我今天切入這個主題、讓我上臺階，非常謝謝召委。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:01:52.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:02:10.029000+08:00","text":"我今天不講日語，我們就講中文，「講事以度軌量謂之軌，取材以章物采謂之物」、「辨等列，順少長」官司之守也。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:02:10.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:02:32.048000+08:00","text":"現在我看到楊珍妮被調查出來他的行為被認定是霸凌，竟然是「以冒犯方式多次否定部屬之意見」、「打斷部屬發言」為由，這樣就構成霸凌！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:02:32.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:02:32.228000+08:00","text":"秘書長，您贊同嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:02:40.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:02:48.060000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們在保障法或是職安法裡面，的確大家很重視霸凌這個事情，所以會有霸凌的定義。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:02:48.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:06.794000+08:00","text":"當然這個定義有時候文字上是沒有辦法完整的去表達到底符合哪些要件就一定構成霸凌或一定不構成，所以還是要看整個事情的脈絡，所以這就是調查小組必須要存在的意義。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:06.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:12.217000+08:00","text":"我真的很想打斷您發言，但是打斷發言會構成霸凌，所以我……","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:12.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:16.620000+08:00","text":"不會，所以這個要看前後文、要看那個場景、要看整體的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:16.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:24.145000+08:00","text":"所以回答您的問題，如果只是從文字上面來看，這樣是不是就構成霸凌？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:25.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:27.727000+08:00","text":"這幾個文字當然沒有辦法去一概而論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:27.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:35.789000+08:00","text":"我去請教過教育部，教育部給我的「霸凌」定義非常的嚴謹，不可能這樣就構成霸凌。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:36.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:03:47.175000+08:00","text":"對，其實霸凌這個概念本來是在教育部的法規裡面先出現的，所以後來勞動部或保訓會在修相關法規的時候，也會去參考它的定義。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:03:48.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:04:04.045000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，重點是要看前後關係以及整個情節是什麼，這件事沒有辦法從最後行政院新聞稿的三言兩語裡面，就讓大家覺得可以那麼清楚的表達，但是他一定有一個詳盡的調查。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:04:04.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:04:05.666000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我沒有霸凌你的意思。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:04:06.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:04:07.287000+08:00","text":"我完全沒有覺得這樣子。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:04:08.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:04:28.340000+08:00","text":"我們的貿易談判代表是您跟我在替臺灣打拼的時候，我在反ECFA的時候，一直主張臺灣要仿美國設立USTR（United States Trade Representative），所以我們成立談判辦公室。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:04:29.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:05:01.468000+08:00","text":"談判代表必須要英文好，國際經貿法的談判能力技巧又要好，顏慧欣副代表仙逝，我非常難過，去世了一個副代表，結果現在行政院又砸了一個總代表，請問行政院現在要跟美國等其他國家談判時，誰要上陣呢？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:05:02.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:05:14.953000+08:00","text":"這是我最擔心的一件事情，我們因為媒體受到一些力量的操弄，把這麼優秀的公務人員給砸了！","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:05:16.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:05:22.329000+08:00","text":"我個人認為非常不應該，所以今天我才在這裡請教您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:05:24.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:05:53.786000+08:00","text":"我也知道您非常的幽默，有文學方面的造詣，莫里哀有齣經典舞台劇，我們在英國都時常講到，那齣劇中文翻叫貴人迷，他的主角Monsieur Jourdain有一句經典語錄：「He is astonished to find that for forty years he had been speaking prose without knowing it.」他要去學散文，其實他已經講了散文40年，他不知道。","quality":0.421},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:05:53.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:19.212000+08:00","text":"如果霸凌這麼容易成立的話，我許忠信不是只有在立法院霸凌劉建忻秘書長而已，我打斷你發言，而且我剛才對你講話的方式也是冒犯、沒有禮貌，所以我也是霸凌了您。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:19.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:22.215000+08:00","text":"我完全沒有這個感覺。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:22.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:33.661000+08:00","text":"原來我也霸凌了我的部屬、我的同仁好久，因為霸凌這麼容易構成，這樣對楊珍妮公平嗎？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:33.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:18.052000+08:00","text":"他為國家犧牲奉獻，我是在21年前代表臺灣智庫去日內瓦做研究時認識他的，他的英文能力、他的國際經貿法的專業以及談判技巧不輸給蔡英文總統，而我們卻用這樣一個莫須有的罪名把他砸了，而且讓他一輩子當公務人員所付出的，不只付諸流水，甚至讓他人生受到一個很大的不公平。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:19.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:21.774000+08:00","text":"所以今天我們的公務人員保障暨培訓委員會要如何來保障他？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:27.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:38.220000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為楊代表、楊政委其實以前是一個非常優秀的文官，他的工作表現，我想大家都有目共睹，對國家也都有貢獻，這部分我們不會抹煞他。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:39.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:49.810000+08:00","text":"但是他現在的身分是政務人員，在政務人員的身分上，他沒有辦法採取公務人員保障暨培訓委員會的救濟管道。","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:49.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:09.892000+08:00","text":"的確是這樣，但是行政院現在的做法真的沒有給他基本的權利，因為那個調查沒有很充分、澈底，也沒有給他陳述意見的機會，只是去問了幾個想要取代他的人。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:11.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:29.224000+08:00","text":"我們總談判代表當然旁邊也有人想要取代他，結果談判辦公室百分之七十的部屬非常肯定他，表示我們在調查的時候不澈底，也沒有給他陳述的機會。","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:29.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:44.573000+08:00","text":"我今天沒有受他的請託，我今天是義憤填膺，因為臺灣喪失了這樣一個人才，我怕產生寒蟬效應，將來臺灣公務人員可能不願意替國家做事。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:45.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:11.434000+08:00","text":"因為一個好的長官帶部屬，如果他比較急迫，想要有所進展、有所成績，當然有時候會對部屬比較沒有那麼客氣，有時候部屬講話，會把他打斷，因為時間不是很長，這個一定會有的嘛，怎麼會這樣就構成霸凌呢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:12.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:17.600000+08:00","text":"而行政院對他的處理，我認為是霸凌，我認為行政院對他是霸凌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:18.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:31.804000+08:00","text":"所以我今天來請教秘書長，你有沒有辦法以你的影響力再給他救濟？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:31.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:56.216000+08:00","text":"委員，第一個，這可能就是要看相關的制度，至於你對於這個調查的結果持不同意見，這個個案上，我真的沒有辦法去幫行政院說明或評論，因為從考試院的角度來說，公務人員保障暨培訓委員會是保障文官權益，的確它保障的對象不包含政務人員。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:56.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:08.965000+08:00","text":"秘書長，我跟你報告一個故事，姚瑩在臺南於鴉片戰爭表現非常好，清廷對他看似貶，其實是升。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:10.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:15.672000+08:00","text":"我個人建議秘書長，我知道連總統都尊重你三分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:15.672000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:17.934000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有這樣的狀況。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:17.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:22.136000+08:00","text":"尊重你三分是我個人私底下知道的，總統非常肯定你。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:23.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:34.684000+08:00","text":"這一次雖然讓他受到傷害，這個人才不可失，我們應該把他調升，這是我對您的期許，也是拜託，謝謝您。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉秘書長建忻","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:35.184000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:37.469714+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:37.769714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:51.198286+08:00","text":"你可以繼續說沒關係，楊瓊瓔跟我兩個人都在這裡聆聽，心有戚戚焉，但是個案的認定有時候我們也尊重調查機關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:51.498286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:01.498286+08:00","text":"雖然我們一直在講當事人可以有救濟程序，但是我們都知道這些高階的政務官去談……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:01.798286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:03.798286+08:00","text":"召委，你沒有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:04.098286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:17.526857+08:00","text":"談判回來之後，大家把他當作英雄，一段時間之後卻有這樣的結果，其實我內心有很大的感慨，所以謝謝許忠信委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:17.826857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:20.969714+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["許委員忠信：（11時）主席，有請考試院秘書長劉秘書長。"],["主席：請劉秘書長。"],["劉秘書長建忻：許委員好。好久不見！"],["許委員忠信：秘書長好。好久不見！卓政府以及考試院中，我最欣賞的一男一女的公務人員，男的就是您，也就是說您枵腹從公、盡忠職守，有一陣子我在學校看到您身體不適，我非常的擔心，您從外獨會到現在為臺灣的打拼，我非常的感動。女的則是楊珍妮，所以我今天要來請教秘書長，我星期一到教育部去質詢什麼叫霸凌？到底楊珍妮是霸凌人，還是被霸凌？這個是我要請教秘書長的，因為貴院裡面有公務人員保障暨培訓委員會，所以公務員保障是貴院的職責，有任何一個公務人員受到冤屈，不是只有考績，還要替他申冤。剛才莊瑞雄委員有提到，考績的考核有可能涉及到霸凌的問題，剛好給我今天切入這個主題、讓我上臺階，非常謝謝召委。","我今天不講日語，我們就講中文，「講事以度軌量謂之軌，取材以章物采謂之物」、「辨等列，順少長」官司之守也。現在我看到楊珍妮被調查出來他的行為被認定是霸凌，竟然是「以冒犯方式多次否定部屬之意見」、「打斷部屬發言」為由，這樣就構成霸凌！秘書長，您贊同嗎？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，我們在保障法或是職安法裡面，的確大家很重視霸凌這個事情，所以會有霸凌的定義。當然這個定義有時候文字上是沒有辦法完整的去表達到底符合哪些要件就一定構成霸凌或一定不構成，所以還是要看整個事情的脈絡，所以這就是調查小組必須要存在的意義。"],["許委員忠信：我真的很想打斷您發言，但是打斷發言會構成霸凌，所以我……"],["劉秘書長建忻：不會，所以這個要看前後文、要看那個場景、要看整體的狀況。所以回答您的問題，如果只是從文字上面來看，這樣是不是就構成霸凌？這幾個文字當然沒有辦法去一概而論……"],["許委員忠信：我去請教過教育部，教育部給我的「霸凌」定義非常的嚴謹，不可能這樣就構成霸凌。"],["劉秘書長建忻：對，其實霸凌這個概念本來是在教育部的法規裡面先出現的，所以後來勞動部或保訓會在修相關法規的時候，也會去參考它的定義。我的意思是，重點是要看前後關係以及整個情節是什麼，這件事沒有辦法從最後行政院新聞稿的三言兩語裡面，就讓大家覺得可以那麼清楚的表達，但是他一定有一個詳盡的調查。"],["許委員忠信：秘書長，我沒有霸凌你的意思。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我完全沒有覺得這樣子。"],["許委員忠信：我們的貿易談判代表是您跟我在替臺灣打拼的時候，我在反ECFA的時候，一直主張臺灣要仿美國設立USTR（United States Trade Representative），所以我們成立談判辦公室。談判代表必須要英文好，國際經貿法的談判能力技巧又要好，顏慧欣副代表仙逝，我非常難過，去世了一個副代表，結果現在行政院又砸了一個總代表，請問行政院現在要跟美國等其他國家談判時，誰要上陣呢？這是我最擔心的一件事情，我們因為媒體受到一些力量的操弄，把這麼優秀的公務人員給砸了！我個人認為非常不應該，所以今天我才在這裡請教您。","我也知道您非常的幽默，有文學方面的造詣，莫里哀有齣經典舞台劇，我們在英國都時常講到，那齣劇中文翻叫貴人迷，他的主角Monsieur Jourdain有一句經典語錄：「He is astonished to find that for forty years he had been speaking prose without knowing it.」他要去學散文，其實他已經講了散文40年，他不知道。如果霸凌這麼容易成立的話，我許忠信不是只有在立法院霸凌劉建忻秘書長而已，我打斷你發言，而且我剛才對你講話的方式也是冒犯、沒有禮貌，所以我也是霸凌了您。"],["劉秘書長建忻：我完全沒有這個感覺。"],["許委員忠信：原來我也霸凌了我的部屬、我的同仁好久，因為霸凌這麼容易構成，這樣對楊珍妮公平嗎？他為國家犧牲奉獻，我是在21年前代表臺灣智庫去日內瓦做研究時認識他的，他的英文能力、他的國際經貿法的專業以及談判技巧不輸給蔡英文總統，而我們卻用這樣一個莫須有的罪名把他砸了，而且讓他一輩子當公務人員所付出的，不只付諸流水，甚至讓他人生受到一個很大的不公平。所以今天我們的公務人員保障暨培訓委員會要如何來保障他？"],["劉秘書長建忻：跟委員報告，因為楊代表、楊政委其實以前是一個非常優秀的文官，他的工作表現，我想大家都有目共睹，對國家也都有貢獻，這部分我們不會抹煞他。但是他現在的身分是政務人員，在政務人員的身分上，他沒有辦法採取公務人員保障暨培訓委員會的救濟管道。"],["許委員忠信：的確是這樣，但是行政院現在的做法真的沒有給他基本的權利，因為那個調查沒有很充分、澈底，也沒有給他陳述意見的機會，只是去問了幾個想要取代他的人。我們總談判代表當然旁邊也有人想要取代他，結果談判辦公室百分之七十的部屬非常肯定他，表示我們在調查的時候不澈底，也沒有給他陳述的機會。我今天沒有受他的請託，我今天是義憤填膺，因為臺灣喪失了這樣一個人才，我怕產生寒蟬效應，將來臺灣公務人員可能不願意替國家做事。因為一個好的長官帶部屬，如果他比較急迫，想要有所進展、有所成績，當然有時候會對部屬比較沒有那麼客氣，有時候部屬講話，會把他打斷，因為時間不是很長，這個一定會有的嘛，怎麼會這樣就構成霸凌呢？而行政院對他的處理，我認為是霸凌，我認為行政院對他是霸凌。所以我今天來請教秘書長，你有沒有辦法以你的影響力再給他救濟？"],["劉秘書長建忻：委員，第一個，這可能就是要看相關的制度，至於你對於這個調查的結果持不同意見，這個個案上，我真的沒有辦法去幫行政院說明或評論，因為從考試院的角度來說，公務人員保障暨培訓委員會是保障文官權益，的確它保障的對象不包含政務人員。"],["許委員忠信：秘書長，我跟你報告一個故事，姚瑩在臺南於鴉片戰爭表現非常好，清廷對他看似貶，其實是升。我個人建議秘書長，我知道連總統都尊重你三分。"],["劉秘書長建忻：沒有，沒有這樣的狀況。"],["許委員忠信：尊重你三分是我個人私底下知道的，總統非常肯定你。這一次雖然讓他受到傷害，這個人才不可失，我們應該把他調升，這是我對您的期許，也是拜託，謝謝您。"],["劉秘書長建忻：謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：你可以繼續說沒關係，楊瓊瓔跟我兩個人都在這裡聆聽，心有戚戚焉，但是個案的認定有時候我們也尊重調查機關。雖然我們一直在講當事人可以有救濟程序，但是我們都知道這些高階的政務官去談……"],["許委員忠信：召委，你沒有辦法……"],["主席：談判回來之後，大家把他當作英雄，一段時間之後卻有這樣的結果，其實我內心有很大的感慨，所以謝謝許忠信委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":292,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-22","speakers":["莊瑞雄","陳昭姿","翁曉玲","張雅琳","沈發惠","林倩綺","范雲","許忠信","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","林德福","許宇甄","傅崐萁"],"page_start":235,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155702","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155702_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查考試院函請審議「公務人員考績法修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155702_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}