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謝謝葉主委我們今天要談的國發基金剛剛委員一直強調國發基金就是依據產業創新條例的第29條來設立的最重要我們是要期盼能夠透過我們的投資融資跟信用保證跟我們資金補助的方式多元的方式來協助"},{"start":39.096,"end":44.16,"text":"我們國內較具潛力的這個企業的成長也配合著國家整體的這個產業的策略那尤其像我們的台積電在成立之初就是我們國發基金一路的來相挺它造就它今天成為我們世界第一個半導體的這個公司那尤其是我們現在國發會也是最大的股份"},{"start":64.077,"end":79.824,"text":"所以在這方面的話我們有穩定的這個股利的收入那近幾年來我們看到國發基金這個我們的投資也爆發了投資失利跟監管失能的情形尤其是外界還嘲諷我們說未來的投資就看我們國發基金投資什麼我們就反指標這種方式你聽了做何感想"},{"start":88.451,"end":107.018,"text":"因為我們那個其實像企業直投方案有很多其實都在獲利當中雖然委員這邊有列出一些虧損但大部分的虧損公司其實我們那個本金都已經收回來了只是說有一些股票還沒有把它賣掉或是說放在那邊股票就被凍結了"},{"start":108.379,"end":137.214,"text":"那你看到我們國發基金裡面有直接管理的我說直接管理沒有委外的企業直接投資的方案裡面有69家投資進去21家虧損創業天使這個投資方案的話有投資268家33家都虧損這個很難讓人家接受那我們是認為說國發基金在這種情形之下的話讓我們國人沒辦法信任的那你們做這方面有沒有任何的調整方案"},{"start":138.844,"end":157.811,"text":"我們會持續的在精進就是說頭前的評估頭後的管理這部分我們都會做那委員列的這一些虧損的案件的話其實投資本來就有虧有贏有虧有贏啦有賺啦但是整個平均來講的話其實我們的那個投報還算是蠻不錯的啦你滿意就是了"},{"start":164.693,"end":169.317,"text":"不錯至少在資產成長的倍數上面來看的話我們大概成長大概有105倍當然裡面有蠻大部分是台積電有Question我們就要檢討因為我們每一項投資裡面我們都有委外"},{"start":180.625,"end":196.994,"text":"來做一個評估 審慎的評估包括不管是技術跟財務跟稅務法務跟建架等等的領域我們都請專家來跟我們做一個協助評估在有這個協助評估他一定有給你建議難道他這些建議你們都不當一回事嗎我們這個部分會公開透明的揭露給大家看投資評估給你的這些建議你們會採納還是僅供參考"},{"start":208.502,"end":234.883,"text":"我們會採納 假如說那個建議是很公允的話 我們會你們都會採納 本席這樣子問的話 就是請你們真的要採納可是我們看到很多方式 你們並沒有採納你們會用審議委員會的方式 進行投資的最後表決但是我們看到你們在表決的時候 所有審查的委員"},{"start":235.923,"end":262.495,"text":"應該全部出席來做表決但是我們看到很多沒有出席喔也有代理的 也有請假的我知道你們有修改一下有的是二分之一 三分之二 或者四分之三的出席率去投資去表決 但是結果很多未出席的這樣子的公信力 這樣子的決定不是很正確的 是不是要再修正一下這個部分我是不是請那個我們指名跟那個委員好 指名你來做解釋"},{"start":264.045,"end":278.87,"text":"是跟委員報告在投資我們每一個這個直接投資的方案都會經過三階段的我知道是三階段那剛剛委員講的說要不要全員出席的部分尤其是在投資評估審議會剛剛講的那個委外的專業評估那個評估書是經過淨值調查然後財務法務技術商業模式等等"},{"start":287.333,"end":307.898,"text":"提出來給專業的這個委員那委員是用在一個大的這個專業的池子裡面去抽籤的因為擔心說都是澳大利亞固定委員所以這一些評估報告他們都會去參採那至於說個別委員他在做投票的時候他覺得說這個案子對我們國家政策的發展對產業的發展這個企業本身的體質每一個委員是專業的去做這個判斷那在"},{"start":313.539,"end":338.526,"text":"投評會的時候一定是要 譬如說舉例來講這一個委員抽到他 但是他沒有時間來那就跳過了 就往下一序去所以要強調了為什麼你們知道重要性你們才從二分之一改三分之二最後還改到四分之三就是重視最後的決定要公平公正而且能夠做到把關對不對但是你現在"},{"start":340.387,"end":367.331,"text":"我們要各部會首長來的有部份首長要來的 有是抽籤專家要來的但是你看到 部會首長要請代理人有些人請假 有些人不出席 甚至你剛剛講的 有些委員沒有空為什麼會沒有空 他不來了 他反對就是你不要來好了 不要投票好了都有這些情形發生 所以就沒有辦法做到公正跟把關的最重要要素"},{"start":368.212,"end":382.129,"text":"所以你們要了解了解之後就要改過未來我希望未來出席最後的決定表決的人員全數都要到好不好不能到的人我們請別人到絕對不能有代理跟請假"},{"start":383.01,"end":398.661,"text":"是 我們持續來精進不然你們的從二分之一到四分之三這個意義都不大了瞭解不要有人故意有意見的就迴避了好不好這情形不要再發生不會才能夠真正的幫我們把關我們投資才會更好好不好這都是人民的納稅錢絕對不能輕忽的是"},{"start":402.003,"end":406.088,"text":"那接下來我想請問的就是說我們國發基金為了擺脫一些外界的罵名對我們的不信任等等所以我們經過2024年的6月我們有提出了9項的精進投資的管理措施對我們的投資我們要有效益跟風險的管控等等"},{"start":421.405,"end":445.753,"text":"所以我們也成立了這個投資的整合管理的平台這目前有七項的專案基金都有各部會跨部會來做一個績效的檢討的機制都有來做另外有兩項是直接我們國發基金裡面由內部直接審查的包括企業直接投資的方案跟創業天使投資的方案剛剛都有提到了"},{"start":447.153,"end":472.914,"text":"有投資的部分也有虧損的部分但是我們看到在我們國發基金的內部裡面的這個投審機制裡面我們各部會是自行去做投資的評估再送到國發基金做備查所以國發基金你們沒有任何的角色你們是負責出錢虧錢也是你們在虧這樣子合理嗎這樣子你們的權責分工在哪裡呢"},{"start":473.774,"end":498.47,"text":"跟那個委員報告這個也是為什麼我們要成立一個百億基金的投資平台一樣就是說我們每一季會就他們通過的案子然後進行去審查那假如說有一些不太合規的案子的話我們在每一季的那個工作會議我們其實就會建議他就把它剔除掉所以我們會精進後面的頭前評估的這個部分我們會持續的來精進這個部分對"},{"start":499.23,"end":522.464,"text":"因為虧損是大家不願意的那投你們要出錢之前你們要審慎賠估譬如我們中小企業的這個投資方案裡面我們投資了333家我們虧損了也有53家所以我認為這個專案這個基金部分的話我們國發會你們要有角色你們也要進去審查你不能他們審查說可以你們就可以了是不是這樣子"},{"start":523.539,"end":539.18,"text":"你們有沒有負責這個責任未來的話我們那個投資協調平台的話不只會在那個投錢管理甚至連投錢評估甚至連投後管理都會做出很積極的建議甚至也會幫每一個基金去找一些案源"},{"start":540.703,"end":561.851,"text":"還有另外的就是運動產業跟大健康產業在這個運動產業這個部分的話本來我們的質詢的請問的時候你們說4月份的時候告訴我們說5月份就會完成現在已經7月份了那現在進度到哪裡了運動產業7月15會公告公告之後就會已經"},{"start":565.403,"end":582.832,"text":"對 五月已經公告五月公告兩個月就7月15號那接下來他就會送到那個管理委員會管理委員會就會通過他就會通過了那另外一個大健康產業呢大健康還在規劃進度還在推 到哪裡了但現在"},{"start":584.997,"end":605.133,"text":"還在衛福部啦不過部長有持續的跟我表達就是說他們其實會在今年年底之前會想辦法讓大健康產業這個也會進到那個百億基金裡面既然已經投出計畫的話不要再這些緩解的卡關子啦那對全民才有真的福利好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝李玲委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.106000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.466000+08:00","text":"請葉主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:50.726000+08:00","text":"請國發會葉主委。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:57.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:06:58.971000+08:00","text":"因為他腳傷，所以讓他坐著。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:06:59.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:00.732000+08:00","text":"我知道，請坐。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:05.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:05.916000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:05.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:31.078000+08:00","text":"葉主委，我們今天要談的是國發基金，剛剛委員都一直強調，國發基金是依據產業創新條例第二十九條設立的，最重要的是我們期盼能夠透過投資、融資、信用保證和資金補助等多元方式，協助國內較具潛力的企業成長，也配合國家整體的產業策略。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:31.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:07:57.779000+08:00","text":"像我們的台積電，在成立之初，就是由國發基金一路相挺，造就它今天成為世界第一的半導體公司，尤其因為國發會也是它最大的股東，所以在這方面有穩定的股利收入。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:07:58.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:09.444000+08:00","text":"但是近幾年來，我們看到國發基金的投資也爆發投資失利和監管失能的情形，外界甚至還嘲諷說，未來看國發基金投資什麼，就將其做為反指標。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:09.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:09.804000+08:00","text":"這種說法你聽了作何感想？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:18.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:35.178000+08:00","text":"其實我們的企業直投方案很多都在獲利當中，雖然委員有列出一些虧損，但大部分的虧損公司，我們的本金都已經收回來了，只是有一些股票還沒有賣掉、就放在那邊，所以呈現……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:35.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:36.998000+08:00","text":"股票就是凍結了啦！是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:38.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:08:58.029000+08:00","text":"那你看國發基金直接管理而沒有委外的部分，企業直接投資方案裡面投資了69家，其中21家虧損，創業天使投資方案投資了268家，其中33家虧損，這很難令人接受。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:08:58.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:07.194000+08:00","text":"我們認為國發基金在這種情形之下，是無法讓國人信任的，請問你們對此有沒有任何調整方案？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:08.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:17.467000+08:00","text":"我們持續在精進的就是投前的評估和投後的管理，這些部分我們都會做。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:18.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:27.291000+08:00","text":"關於委員列的這些虧損案件，其實投資本來就有盈有虧，但是整個平均來講，其實我們的投報還算滿不錯的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:27.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:35.273000+08:00","text":"你滿意就是了？不錯？是嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:35.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:38.436000+08:00","text":"至少以資產成長倍數來看，我們大概成長了105倍，當然，裡面有滿大部分是台積電……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:38.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:38.796000+08:00","text":"有虧損就要檢討。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:38.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:09:39.796000+08:00","text":"會、會、會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:09:38.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:05.473000+08:00","text":"因為每項投資都有委外審慎評估，包括技術、財務、稅務、法務和鑑價等領域，我們都請專家來做協助評估，有這個協助評估，他一定有給你建議，難道這些建議你們都不當一回事嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:05.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:06.434000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們會公開、透明的揭露給……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:06.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:06.974000+08:00","text":"投資評估給你的這些建議，你們會採納，還是僅供參考？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:18.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:26.308000+08:00","text":"我們會採納，假如建議是很公允的話，我們會採納。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:26.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:28.170000+08:00","text":"你們都會採納？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:28.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:31.692000+08:00","text":"本席這樣子問就是要請你們真的要採納。會。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:31.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:41.620000+08:00","text":"可是我們看到很多時候你們並沒有採納，你們會用審議委員會的方式進行投資的最後表決。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:41.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:10:52.106000+08:00","text":"我們看到你們在表決的時候，所有審查的委員應該全部出席來表決，但是我們看到很多沒有出席，也有代理的，也有請假的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:10:53.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:08.173000+08:00","text":"我知道你們有修改，有的是二分之一、三分之二或者四分之三的出席率去表決，但是很多未出席的，這樣子的公信力、這樣子的決定不是很正確，是不是要再修正一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:08.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:11.434000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我是不是請我們執秘跟委員說明一下？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:11.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:12.495000+08:00","text":"好，執秘，你來解釋。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:14.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:20.427000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，我們每一個直接投資的方案都會經過三階段的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:20.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:21.548000+08:00","text":"我知道是三階段。","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:23.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:50.336000+08:00","text":"對，剛剛委員講要不要全員出席，尤其是在投資評估審議會，剛剛講的那個委外專業評估，那個評估書是經過淨值調查，有財務、法務、技術、商業模式等等，提出來給專業的委員，委員是在一個大的專業池子裡面去抽籤的，因為擔心都是安排固定委員，所以這一些評估報告，他們都會參採。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:50.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:11:57.858000+08:00","text":"至於個別委員在投票的時候，他覺得這個案子對我們國家政策的發展、對產業的發展、這個企業本身的體質，每一個委員都是專業的判斷。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:11:57.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:13.382000+08:00","text":"在投評會的時候，舉例來講，這一個委員抽到，但是他沒有時間來，那就跳過了，就往下依序……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:15.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:28.306000+08:00","text":"是，執秘，我要強調為什麼我說你們知道重要性，你們才會從二分之一改三分之二，最後還改到四分之三，就是重視最後的決定，要公平、公正，而且能夠做到把關，對不對？是。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:28.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:44.139000+08:00","text":"但是現在要各部會首長來的，有部分首長要來的，有是抽籤的專家要來的，但是你看到有些部會首長要請代理人，有些人請假，有些人不出席，甚至你剛剛講的有些委員沒有空。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:45.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:45.801000+08:00","text":"為什麼會沒有空？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:45.801000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:46.801000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:46.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:12:57.311000+08:00","text":"他不來了，他反對，就說不要來好了，不要投票好了，就有這些情形發生，所以就沒有辦法做到公正跟把關最重要的要素。了解。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:12:58.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:07.904000+08:00","text":"所以你們要了解，了解之後就要改過，我希望未來出席最後決定表決的人員全數都要到，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:07.904000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:08.904000+08:00","text":"是，我們持續精進。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:08.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:12.109000+08:00","text":"不能到的人，我們請別人到，絕對不能有代理跟請假。","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:13.010000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:14.451000+08:00","text":"是，我們持續來精進。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:14.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:18.974000+08:00","text":"不然你們從二分之一到四分之三，這個意義就不大了。了解。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:19.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:21.836000+08:00","text":"不要有些有意見的人就故意迴避了，好不好？是。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:22.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:24.338000+08:00","text":"這種情形不要再發生。不會。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:24.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:27.980000+08:00","text":"才能夠真正的幫我們把關，我們投資才會更好，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:27.980000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:28.980000+08:00","text":"是，一定嚴格把關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:28+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:28.641000+08:00","text":"這都是人民的納稅錢，絕對不能輕忽的。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:32.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:13:54.846000+08:00","text":"接下來我想請問，國發基金為了擺脫一些外界的罵名及不信任等等，所以2024年6月提出了九項精進投資的管理措施，對於投資要有效益跟風險的管控等等，所以也成立了投資整合管理的平臺。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:13:55.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:14:03.389000+08:00","text":"目前有七項專利專案基金都有各部會跨部會做績效檢討的機制，都有做。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:14:03.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:14:18.975000+08:00","text":"另外有兩項是國發基金裡面由內部直接審查的，包括企業直接投資的方案，創業天使投資的方案，剛剛都有提到了，有投資的部分，也有虧損的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:14:19.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:14:40.512000+08:00","text":"但是我們看到國發基金內部的投審機制裡面，各部會是自行去做投資的評估，再送到國發基金備查，所以國發基金沒有任何角色，你們只負責出錢，虧錢也是你們在虧，這樣子合理嗎？","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:14:40.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:14:42.894000+08:00","text":"這樣子，你們的權責分工在哪裡呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:14:43.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:08.290000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這也是為什麼我要成立一個百億基金的投資平臺，一樣，我們每一季會就他們通過的案子進行審查，假如有一些不太合規的案子，我們在每一季的工作會議其實就會建議把他剔除掉，所以我們會精進，後面投錢評估這個部分，我們會持續精進。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:08.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:14.313000+08:00","text":"對，因為虧損是大家不願意的，你們出錢之前要審慎評估。會。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:15.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:32.444000+08:00","text":"譬如中小企業的投資方案裡面，我們投資了333家，虧損也有53家，所以我認為專案基金這部分，國發會要有角色，你們也要進去審查，不能他們審查說可以，你們就可以了，是不是這樣子？不會。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:33.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:34.701000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有負這個責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:35.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:49.160000+08:00","text":"未來我們那個投資協調平臺，不只會投錢評估，甚至連投後管理都會做出很積極的建議，甚至也會幫每一個基金去找一些案源。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:50.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:08.110000+08:00","text":"好，另外就是運動產業跟大健康產業，在運動產業這個部分的話，本來我們質詢的時候，你們4月份告訴我們5月份就會完成，現在已經7月份了，現在進度到哪裡了？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:09.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:11.831000+08:00","text":"運動產業7月15日會公告，公告之後，就會……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:15.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:16.324000+08:00","text":"5月已經公告，兩個月了。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:16.324000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:17.324000+08:00","text":"對，5月已經公告了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:17.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:19.165000+08:00","text":"5月公告兩個月就7月……7月15日。7月15日。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:20.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:26.389000+08:00","text":"接下來他就會送到管理委員會，管理委員會，管理委員會就會通過，他就會……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:26.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:26.749000+08:00","text":"就會通過了？是。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:27.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:28.830000+08:00","text":"另外一個大健康產業呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:29.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:30.531000+08:00","text":"大健康還在規劃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:30.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:31.051000+08:00","text":"還在推？","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:31.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:31.732000+08:00","text":"進度到哪裡了？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:34.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:46.447000+08:00","text":"還在衛福部，不過部長有持續跟我表達，在今年年底之前會想辦法讓大健康產業進到百億基金裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"呂委員玉玲","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:46.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:53.792000+08:00","text":"好，既然已經投諸計畫，不要在這些環節卡關子，對全民才有真正的福利，好不好？好。謝謝。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:54.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:54.213000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:54.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:55.133000+08:00","text":"謝謝呂玉玲委員，謝謝主委跟執秘。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:55.633000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:59.347286+08:00","text":"林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:59.647286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:02.790143+08:00","text":"接下來請許忠信委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1108,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時6分）謝謝主席。請葉主委。"],["主席：請國發會葉主委。因為他腳傷，所以讓他坐著。"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道，請坐。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。葉主委，我們今天要談的是國發基金，剛剛委員都一直強調，國發基金是依據產業創新條例第二十九條設立的，最重要的是我們期盼能夠透過投資、融資、信用保證和資金補助等多元方式，協助國內較具潛力的企業成長，也配合國家整體的產業策略。像我們的台積電，在成立之初，就是由國發基金一路相挺，造就它今天成為世界第一的半導體公司，尤其因為國發會也是它最大的股東，所以在這方面有穩定的股利收入。但是近幾年來，我們看到國發基金的投資也爆發投資失利和監管失能的情形，外界甚至還嘲諷說，未來看國發基金投資什麼，就將其做為反指標。這種說法你聽了作何感想？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：其實我們的企業直投方案很多都在獲利當中，雖然委員有列出一些虧損，但大部分的虧損公司，我們的本金都已經收回來了，只是有一些股票還沒有賣掉、就放在那邊，所以呈現……"],["呂委員玉玲：股票就是凍結了啦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：那你看國發基金直接管理而沒有委外的部分，企業直接投資方案裡面投資了69家，其中21家虧損，創業天使投資方案投資了268家，其中33家虧損，這很難令人接受。我們認為國發基金在這種情形之下，是無法讓國人信任的，請問你們對此有沒有任何調整方案？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們持續在精進的就是投前的評估和投後的管理，這些部分我們都會做。關於委員列的這些虧損案件，其實投資本來就有盈有虧，但是整個平均來講，其實我們的投報還算滿不錯的。"],["呂委員玉玲：你滿意就是了？不錯？是嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：至少以資產成長倍數來看，我們大概成長了105倍，當然，裡面有滿大部分是台積電……"],["呂委員玉玲：有虧損就要檢討。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會、會、會。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為每項投資都有委外審慎評估，包括技術、財務、稅務、法務和鑑價等領域，我們都請專家來做協助評估，有這個協助評估，他一定有給你建議，難道這些建議你們都不當一回事嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分，我們會公開、透明的揭露給……"],["呂委員玉玲：投資評估給你的這些建議，你們會採納，還是僅供參考？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們會採納，假如建議是很公允的話，我們會採納。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們都會採納？本席這樣子問就是要請你們真的要採納。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們看到很多時候你們並沒有採納，你們會用審議委員會的方式進行投資的最後表決。我們看到你們在表決的時候，所有審查的委員應該全部出席來表決，但是我們看到很多沒有出席，也有代理的，也有請假的。我知道你們有修改，有的是二分之一、三分之二或者四分之三的出席率去表決，但是很多未出席的，這樣子的公信力、這樣子的決定不是很正確，是不是要再修正一下？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個部分，我是不是請我們執秘跟委員說明一下？"],["呂委員玉玲：好，執秘，你來解釋。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，跟委員報告，我們每一個直接投資的方案都會經過三階段的……"],["呂委員玉玲：我知道是三階段。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：對，剛剛委員講要不要全員出席，尤其是在投資評估審議會，剛剛講的那個委外專業評估，那個評估書是經過淨值調查，有財務、法務、技術、商業模式等等，提出來給專業的委員，委員是在一個大的專業池子裡面去抽籤的，因為擔心都是安排固定委員，所以這一些評估報告，他們都會參採。至於個別委員在投票的時候，他覺得這個案子對我們國家政策的發展、對產業的發展、這個企業本身的體質，每一個委員都是專業的判斷。在投評會的時候，舉例來講，這一個委員抽到，但是他沒有時間來，那就跳過了，就往下依序……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，執秘，我要強調為什麼我說你們知道重要性，你們才會從二分之一改三分之二，最後還改到四分之三，就是重視最後的決定，要公平、公正，而且能夠做到把關，對不對？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：但是現在要各部會首長來的，有部分首長要來的，有是抽籤的專家要來的，但是你看到有些部會首長要請代理人，有些人請假，有些人不出席，甚至你剛剛講的有些委員沒有空。為什麼會沒有空？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：跟委員報告……"],["呂委員玉玲：他不來了，他反對，就說不要來好了，不要投票好了，就有這些情形發生，所以就沒有辦法做到公正跟把關最重要的要素。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你們要了解，了解之後就要改過，我希望未來出席最後決定表決的人員全數都要到，好不好？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，我們持續精進。"],["呂委員玉玲：不能到的人，我們請別人到，絕對不能有代理跟請假。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，我們持續來精進。"],["呂委員玉玲：不然你們從二分之一到四分之三，這個意義就不大了。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：了解。"],["呂委員玉玲：不要有些有意見的人就故意迴避了，好不好？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：這種情形不要再發生。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：不會。"],["呂委員玉玲：才能夠真正的幫我們把關，我們投資才會更好，好不好？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，一定嚴格把關。"],["呂委員玉玲：這都是人民的納稅錢，絕對不能輕忽的。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：接下來我想請問，國發基金為了擺脫一些外界的罵名及不信任等等，所以2024年6月提出了九項精進投資的管理措施，對於投資要有效益跟風險的管控等等，所以也成立了投資整合管理的平臺。目前有七項專利專案基金都有各部會跨部會做績效檢討的機制，都有做。另外有兩項是國發基金裡面由內部直接審查的，包括企業直接投資的方案，創業天使投資的方案，剛剛都有提到了，有投資的部分，也有虧損的部分。但是我們看到國發基金內部的投審機制裡面，各部會是自行去做投資的評估，再送到國發基金備查，所以國發基金沒有任何角色，你們只負責出錢，虧錢也是你們在虧，這樣子合理嗎？這樣子，你們的權責分工在哪裡呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，這也是為什麼我要成立一個百億基金的投資平臺，一樣，我們每一季會就他們通過的案子進行審查，假如有一些不太合規的案子，我們在每一季的工作會議其實就會建議把他剔除掉，所以我們會精進，後面投錢評估這個部分，我們會持續精進。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，因為虧損是大家不願意的，你們出錢之前要審慎評估。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：會。"],["呂委員玉玲：譬如中小企業的投資方案裡面，我們投資了333家，虧損也有53家，所以我認為專案基金這部分，國發會要有角色，你們也要進去審查，不能他們審查說可以，你們就可以了，是不是這樣子？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不會。"],["呂委員玉玲：你們有沒有負這個責任？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：未來我們那個投資協調平臺，不只會投錢評估，甚至連投後管理都會做出很積極的建議，甚至也會幫每一個基金去找一些案源。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，另外就是運動產業跟大健康產業，在運動產業這個部分的話，本來我們質詢的時候，你們4月份告訴我們5月份就會完成，現在已經7月份了，現在進度到哪裡了？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：運動產業7月15日會公告，公告之後，就會……"],["汪執行秘書庭安：5月已經公告，兩個月了。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，5月已經公告了。"],["呂委員玉玲：5月公告兩個月就7月……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：7月15日。"],["呂委員玉玲：7月15日。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：接下來他就會送到管理委員會，管理委員會，管理委員會就會通過，他就會……"],["呂委員玉玲：就會通過了？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：另外一個大健康產業呢？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：大健康還在規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：還在推？進度到哪裡了？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：還在衛福部，不過部長有持續跟我表達，在今年年底之前會想辦法讓大健康產業進到百億基金裡面。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，既然已經投諸計畫，不要在這些環節卡關子，對全民才有真正的福利，好不好？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好。"],["呂委員玉玲：謝謝。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員，謝謝主委跟執秘。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請許忠信委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}