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我以前曾經很調皮有一個單位請我去審查 我就真的發表反對意見 後來他就不再找我了不會餒"},{"start":116.67,"end":143.527,"text":"因為甚至於我們現在有很多的這些也不一定是要真實的表達也有匿名的等等的一些程序啦您提到重點也就是那個表決的程序表決的程序通常不會匿名啦如果有匿名的話我今天邀三個學者來裡面有一兩票匿名是反對了大概三個全部下次都不會被邀請"},{"start":145.459,"end":171.151,"text":"這就是我們台灣現在的制度也就是我們外部委員沒辦法做到真的客觀獨立現在比較多的是這樣就是說我們有預算然後很多的這些企業團體來申請我們當然都希望來支持這些企業團體當然有一個低標如果沒有達到那個低標就淘汰了但是通常會用類似排序的方式就是說"},{"start":172.651,"end":200.87,"text":"這些第一名第二名第三名從這樣來看比較是這樣當然還有最低的標準沒有達到當然就要淘汰比較是這個樣子所以就是說我們還是會從這些好的裡面選出最好的最優先來支持他這樣子所以部長我坦白講我不相信這些外部委員真的能夠幫我們把關所以我們要靠制度那靠制度我看您在利益衝突法裡面有講到灣西人"},{"start":202.171,"end":228.371,"text":"那這個關係人已經如列很清楚這個厲害關係人有沒有必要這麼限縮我們留英留美的我們都相信一句話陽光是最好的防腐劑揭露嘛 就是你有提到的把你跟這個案子這個受補助之人"},{"start":230.216,"end":255.727,"text":"跟這個單位跟這個案子只要有利害關係都可以揭露沒必要限縮在利益衝突法這麼限縮的六項的範圍之內也就是說例如這個受補貼的單位他跟執政黨曾經有政治獻金或是有同黨籍的關係這種資訊揭露其實"},{"start":260.969,"end":280.465,"text":"對任何人都無害那只是太陽而已只是陽光讓我們恍惚而已那我個人看到我們的利害關係人這麼限縮很顯然的避重就輕我們現在很多政府的補助案"},{"start":281.567,"end":309.621,"text":"都是當時選舉有戰馬功勞有捐款有補選的拿到政府的標案至少經濟部我看待是不會這樣因為我們還是都是公開公平的那我剛才提到的現在審查委員大部分他們也沒有參與這些啦因為部長您在經濟部關心很多產業發展而我一直在學界然後一直在從事選舉"},{"start":311.28,"end":337.001,"text":"所以我知道這個人跟某一個黨有哪一種關係捐了多少錢甚至利益輸送了多少我這一點比部長還比較了解一點因為部長理論很通但是我的實務是真正體察到這一點所以我看你們的那個揭露表那個揭露表你們就根據第六項這樣"},{"start":341.277,"end":361.776,"text":"第一項到第六項這樣揭露是否將來可以增加有政黨利害關係有捐款的關係或是有該黨籍的 執政黨黨籍的關係也揭露給我們人民知道因為那個表格它是有一致性我們是依據113年這個"},{"start":367.229,"end":395.465,"text":"6月6號的時候那個監察院還有法務部在這個同就是6月13號他們的這個通知啊我們按照他的這個通函來做這樣的一個表格啦那我想這個我們還是這個是您全責之內可以改的也就是說也不是不讓你標啦你可以標啦但是你揭露你跟執政黨以及執政黨內某一些人他有捐款的關係"},{"start":397.113,"end":422.965,"text":"或是有同黨籍的關係也不是不讓他飆啊我們只是要人民知道你跟執政黨有什麼關係而已而這個是部長職權內可以做得到我想這個部分我想跨部會還是他有一次性的中央部會還是要有一次性的做法那這個部分是不是容許我們跟法務部來做一些討論您剛剛的建議是不是有可能也放在是不是要修法是一回事那我們表格裡面可不可以加上修改表格而已對"},{"start":424.245,"end":435.037,"text":"如果可以的話完成是否三個月內能夠送到我辦公室來我們來跟保護部討論一下太好了我沒有這個晚會交你這個朋友有這樣一個部長謝謝部長好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:16.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:18.956000+08:00","text":"主席，有請經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:18.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:19.236000+08:00","text":"請經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:19.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:19.456000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:19.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:20.456000+08:00","text":"許委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:20.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:21.456000+08:00","text":"好久不見了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:19.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:20.617000+08:00","text":"好久不見。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:20.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:42.201000+08:00","text":"我們在學界時常開會、時常見面，也曾經為臺灣一起打拚過。是。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:42.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:56.151000+08:00","text":"您也曾經擔任長久的學者，也參與過經濟部等國家機關很多補助審查案的審查委員。是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:56.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:59.373000+08:00","text":"因為這是我們學者的常態。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:00.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:24.120000+08:00","text":"根據您的報告，現在經濟部補助審查的外部委員，這個外部委員，您也做過，我也做過，而且經濟的可能比我的機會更多，你這個外部委員真的有辦法做到幫我們審查的效用嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:26.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:46.820000+08:00","text":"這些外部委員大部分都是學者或是法人團體，就是學術的或研究機構的法人團體，因為他不是業者，他不是某一個企業的業者，所以至少從態度上、身分上來講，他算是利益上比較衡平的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:50.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:58.648000+08:00","text":"是啊，但是主管機關邀請他……我以前曾經很調皮，有一個單位請我去審查，我就真的發表反對意見，後來他就不再找我了。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:58.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:13.316000+08:00","text":"不會，甚至於現在有很多也不一定要真實的表達，也有匿名的或等等的一些程序。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:14.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:16.998000+08:00","text":"您提到重點，也就是表決的程序。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:18.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:38.842000+08:00","text":"表決的程序通常不會匿名；如果有匿名，今天邀三個學者來，裡面有一、兩票匿名是反對的，大概下次三個全部都不會被邀請，這就是我們臺灣現在的制度，也就是我們外部委員沒辦法做到真的客觀獨立。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:39.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:02.093000+08:00","text":"報告委員，現在比較多的是這樣，就是我們有預算，很多企業團體申請，我們當然都希望支持這些企業團體，當然有一個低標，如果沒有達到那個低標就淘汰，但是通常會用類似排序的方式，第一名、第二名、第三名從這樣來看。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:03.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:14.321000+08:00","text":"當然還有最低的標準，地方沒有達到，當然就要淘汰，比較是這個樣子，所以我們還是會從這些好的裡面選出最好的、最優先來支持他。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:15.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:21.946000+08:00","text":"部長，坦白講，我不相信這些外部委員真的能夠幫我們把關，所以我們要靠制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:23.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:39.799000+08:00","text":"我看您在利益衝突法裡面有講到關係人，這個關係人已經臚列的很清楚，利害關係人有沒有必要這麼限縮？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:39.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:48.546000+08:00","text":"我們留英、留美的都相信一句話，陽光是最好的防腐劑，揭露嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:48.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:49.586000+08:00","text":"就是你有提到的。對。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:50.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:10.402000+08:00","text":"把跟這個案子、這個受補助之人跟這個單位，只要有利害關係都可以揭露，沒必要限縮在利益衝突法這麼限縮的六項範圍之內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:10.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:34.254000+08:00","text":"也就是說，例如受補貼的單位跟執政黨曾經有政治獻金，或是有同黨籍的關係，這種資訊揭露對任何人都無害，那只是太陽而已，只是陽光讓我們防腐而已。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:36.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:55.411000+08:00","text":"我個人看到我們的利害關係人這麼限縮，很顯然避重就輕，現在很多政府的補助案，都是當時選舉有汗馬功勞、有捐款、有輔選的拿到政府標案。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:56.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:07.137000+08:00","text":"至少經濟部我看到的不會這樣，因為我們都還是公開、公平的，我剛才提到現在審查委員大部分沒有參與這些，大部分都是……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:08.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:33.753000+08:00","text":"因為部長在經濟部關心很多產業發展，而我一直在學界、一直在從事選舉，所以我知道這個人跟某一個黨有哪一種關係、捐了多少錢，甚至利益輸送了多少，這部分我比部長還了解一點。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:33.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:40.158000+08:00","text":"部長理論很通啦，但我從實務真正體察到這一點。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:40.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:03.592000+08:00","text":"所以我看你們的揭露表，從第一項到第六項這樣揭露，將來是否可以增加有政黨利害關係、有捐款的關係，或是有該黨籍或執政黨黨籍的關係，也揭露給我們人民知道？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:05.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:27.877000+08:00","text":"因為那個表格有一致性，我們是依據113年6月13號監察院及法務部的通知，我們按照他們的通函做這樣的表格，這個我們還是尊重……","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:28.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:32.800000+08:00","text":"這個是您權責之內可以改的，換言之，也不是不讓你標啦！","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:32.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:33.800000+08:00","text":"不然我們可以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:33.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:34.361000+08:00","text":"你可以標啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:34.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:46.354000+08:00","text":"但是要揭露你跟執政黨以及執政黨內某一些人有捐款的關係或是有同黨籍的關係。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:46.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:46.974000+08:00","text":"也不是不讓他標啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:48.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:53.877000+08:00","text":"我們只是要人民知道你跟執政黨有什麼關係而已，這個是部長的職權內可以做得到的。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:54.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:02.901000+08:00","text":"我想中央部會還是要有一致性的做法，這個部分是不是容許我們跟法務部做一些討論？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:02.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.004000+08:00","text":"就是對您剛才的建議，是不是要修法是一回事，我們表格裡面可不可以加上這一些。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.945000+08:00","text":"修改表格而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:11.245000+08:00","text":"對，這個我們來跟……","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:11.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:15.069000+08:00","text":"好，如果可以完成，是否三個月內能夠送到我辦公室？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:15.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:17.011000+08:00","text":"好、好、好，我們來跟法務部討論一下。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:17.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:17.712000+08:00","text":"太好了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員忠信","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:18.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:22.017000+08:00","text":"沒有枉費我交你這位朋友，有這樣一位部長，謝謝部長！","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:22.517000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:25.659857+08:00","text":"謝謝許忠信委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:25.959857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:28.817000+08:00","text":"再來請王鴻薇委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["許委員忠信：（11時17分）主席，有請經濟部龔部長。"],["主席：請經濟部龔部長。"],["許委員忠信：部長好。"],["龔部長明鑫：許委員好。"],["許委員忠信：好久不見了。"],["龔部長明鑫：好久不見。"],["許委員忠信：我們在學界時常開會、時常見面，也曾經為臺灣一起打拚過。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["許委員忠信：您也曾經擔任長久的學者，也參與過經濟部等國家機關很多補助審查案的審查委員。"],["龔部長明鑫：是。"],["許委員忠信：因為這是我們學者的常態。根據您的報告，現在經濟部補助審查的外部委員，這個外部委員，您也做過，我也做過，而且經濟的可能比我的機會更多，你這個外部委員真的有辦法做到幫我們審查的效用嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：這些外部委員大部分都是學者或是法人團體，就是學術的或研究機構的法人團體，因為他不是業者，他不是某一個企業的業者，所以至少從態度上、身分上來講，他算是利益上比較衡平的。"],["許委員忠信：是啊，但是主管機關邀請他……我以前曾經很調皮，有一個單位請我去審查，我就真的發表反對意見，後來他就不再找我了。"],["龔部長明鑫：不會，甚至於現在有很多也不一定要真實的表達，也有匿名的或等等的一些程序。"],["許委員忠信：您提到重點，也就是表決的程序。表決的程序通常不會匿名；如果有匿名，今天邀三個學者來，裡面有一、兩票匿名是反對的，大概下次三個全部都不會被邀請，這就是我們臺灣現在的制度，也就是我們外部委員沒辦法做到真的客觀獨立。"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，現在比較多的是這樣，就是我們有預算，很多企業團體申請，我們當然都希望支持這些企業團體，當然有一個低標，如果沒有達到那個低標就淘汰，但是通常會用類似排序的方式，第一名、第二名、第三名從這樣來看。當然還有最低的標準，地方沒有達到，當然就要淘汰，比較是這個樣子，所以我們還是會從這些好的裡面選出最好的、最優先來支持他。"],["許委員忠信：部長，坦白講，我不相信這些外部委員真的能夠幫我們把關，所以我們要靠制度。我看您在利益衝突法裡面有講到關係人，這個關係人已經臚列的很清楚，利害關係人有沒有必要這麼限縮？我們留英、留美的都相信一句話，陽光是最好的防腐劑，揭露嘛！就是你有提到的。"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["許委員忠信：把跟這個案子、這個受補助之人跟這個單位，只要有利害關係都可以揭露，沒必要限縮在利益衝突法這麼限縮的六項範圍之內。也就是說，例如受補貼的單位跟執政黨曾經有政治獻金，或是有同黨籍的關係，這種資訊揭露對任何人都無害，那只是太陽而已，只是陽光讓我們防腐而已。我個人看到我們的利害關係人這麼限縮，很顯然避重就輕，現在很多政府的補助案，都是當時選舉有汗馬功勞、有捐款、有輔選的拿到政府標案。"],["龔部長明鑫：至少經濟部我看到的不會這樣，因為我們都還是公開、公平的，我剛才提到現在審查委員大部分沒有參與這些，大部分都是……"],["許委員忠信：因為部長在經濟部關心很多產業發展，而我一直在學界、一直在從事選舉，所以我知道這個人跟某一個黨有哪一種關係、捐了多少錢，甚至利益輸送了多少，這部分我比部長還了解一點。部長理論很通啦，但我從實務真正體察到這一點。所以我看你們的揭露表，從第一項到第六項這樣揭露，將來是否可以增加有政黨利害關係、有捐款的關係，或是有該黨籍或執政黨黨籍的關係，也揭露給我們人民知道？"],["龔部長明鑫：因為那個表格有一致性，我們是依據113年6月13號監察院及法務部的通知，我們按照他們的通函做這樣的表格，這個我們還是尊重……"],["許委員忠信：這個是您權責之內可以改的，換言之，也不是不讓你標啦！"],["龔部長明鑫：不然我們可以……"],["許委員忠信：你可以標啦！但是要揭露你跟執政黨以及執政黨內某一些人有捐款的關係或是有同黨籍的關係。也不是不讓他標啊！我們只是要人民知道你跟執政黨有什麼關係而已，這個是部長的職權內可以做得到的。"],["龔部長明鑫：我想中央部會還是要有一致性的做法，這個部分是不是容許我們跟法務部做一些討論？就是對您剛才的建議，是不是要修法是一回事，我們表格裡面可不可以加上這一些。"],["許委員忠信：修改表格而已。"],["龔部長明鑫：對，這個我們來跟……"],["許委員忠信：好，如果可以完成，是否三個月內能夠送到我辦公室？"],["龔部長明鑫：好、好、好，我們來跟法務部討論一下。"],["許委員忠信：太好了！沒有枉費我交你這位朋友，有這樣一位部長，謝謝部長！"],["主席：謝謝許忠信委員，謝謝部長。","再來請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}