{"error":false,"id":["170228"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170228,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170228","日期":"2026-07-01","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-35-24","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":24,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-01T11:15:51+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-01T11:27:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/10566d69eaf1b9acdd5377799f139acc7b53ee9065a0b1b410bb06545781b11b6246a27f61d679685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:15:51 - 11:27:21","會議時間":"2026-07-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議（變更議程）（事由：邀請國防部、外交部、海洋委員會海巡署、大陸委員會報告「中國船舶常態化巡弋我國海域之因應作為」，並備質詢。）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.38534375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.12784375,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.00534375,"end":3.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.755968750000001,"end":5.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.695343750000003,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.84346875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.99909375,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.00721875,"end":80.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.77784375,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.08971875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.42284375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.66909375,"end":111.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.45659375000001,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.93721875000001,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.16784375,"end":123.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.99471875,"end":124.06221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.07909375000001,"end":135.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.33534375000002,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.23346875000001,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.25034375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.48659375,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.11471875,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.76846875,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.16909375,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.22721875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.85096875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.14846875,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.05096875,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.66471875000002,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.59221875,"end":188.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.64284375000003,"end":188.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.44846875000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.45659375000002,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.45034375,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.32284375,"end":225.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.27409375000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.17221875,"end":244.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.27159375000002,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.26284375,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.27971875000003,"end":244.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.34721875000002,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.77409375,"end":305.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.80596875000003,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.23909375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.49659375000005,"end":374.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.58846875,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.53596875000005,"end":393.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.03346875,"end":389.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.35346875000005,"end":397.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.13346875,"end":406.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.20784375000005,"end":410.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.20721875000004,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.28284375000004,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.69971875000005,"end":419.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.73284375000003,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":434.14034375000006,"end":441.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.78471875,"end":441.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.57784375000006,"end":466.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.77971875000003,"end":447.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.96284375000005,"end":474.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.02346875,"end":480.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.81659375000004,"end":481.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.44909375000003,"end":493.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.62471875000006,"end":528.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.19721875,"end":533.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.95596875,"end":536.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.2803437499999,"end":552.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.50159375,"end":569.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.8134687500001,"end":555.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.69721875,"end":572.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.75159375,"end":574.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.8022187500001,"end":589.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.6240937499999,"end":578.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.4578437499999,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.9597187500001,"end":591.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.6340937500001,"end":605.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.37534375,"end":610.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.2778437500001,"end":607.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.5178437500001,"end":643.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.8503437500001,"end":616.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.01721875,"end":628.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":632.94471875,"end":633.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":640.79159375,"end":640.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.9640937500001,"end":643.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":643.9978437500001,"end":648.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.04846875,"end":644.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":649.1615937500001,"end":666.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.85534375,"end":670.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":668.53409375,"end":673.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.23846875,"end":670.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.5459687500002,"end":682.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":675.82409375,"end":675.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":679.62096875,"end":680.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.8190937500001,"end":681.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.03846875,"end":681.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":681.2578437500001,"end":681.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.59534375,"end":681.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":681.6459687500001,"end":681.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.2703437499999,"end":688.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.1772187500001,"end":684.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.79721875,"end":686.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.3328437499999,"end":687.7547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.7547187499999,"end":687.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.80534375,"end":687.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.03721875,"end":690.9272187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":4.795,"text":"好 謝謝主席喔 這個國防部海委會有請好 謝謝陳勝林委員好"},{"start":14.701,"end":26.651,"text":"部長辛苦了,今天大家討論中國船舶常態化巡弋海運的因應作為,這其實是老問題了,各式各樣大小豐富層出不窮,大量體的艦艇騷擾,讓海巡"},{"start":32.755,"end":54.569,"text":"這個必須出動四千噸等等的要共同出傾來處理形成消耗的問題這個也有這種軍民不分嘛民用科研的問題那甚至有小型目標嘛之前是小三板這個橡皮艇就直接長驅直入等等的問題這過去其實都有很多的討論那有沒有新的因應之道其實社會大眾比較關注的就分別針對這幾個問題先請教一下這個幾位的一個看法"},{"start":57.771,"end":82.204,"text":"第一個我要問的是最近我看我包含在你們報告裡面都寫嘛遇到這樣一個狀況的時候大體來講標準作業流程你當然就是靠近然後用廣播驅離的方式來做處理那你我看你的內容都寫不管是海巡也好國防也好都寫廣播驅離嘛這是標準作業流程這本學院尊重但是具體來講它的效果是怎麼樣這個我覺得社會大眾很關心啊比如說他來之後你廣播驅離他就走了嗎"},{"start":83.254,"end":101.204,"text":"還是他留在原地然後你必須要用更強硬的手段去處理才有辦法化解這一次又一次的一個風波所以具體來講有沒有這個你能不能舉幾個例子就哪一天哪一次什麼樣的狀況你廣播之後他驅離了或他不走然後你們採取了什麼樣的一個手段可不可以先簡單說明一下"},{"start":103.325,"end":118.838,"text":"我的理解應該是這樣,廣播區裡的話,他應該是要進入到我們的相關的臨界區的範圍之內才會做廣播區裡現在就是越來越近嘛,對不對?現在看起來趨勢上還說是這樣他這次在東部執法的話,他的現象反而是在東部的應變區內外,他不斷地進行來來回回這樣子"},{"start":124.423,"end":141.217,"text":"沒關係我講了嘛就是說你講比如說他到一定的範圍內我必須啟動這樣的一個程序我講這叫標準作業流程這大家都理解那我要問的是效果所以他有沒有進來有沒有驅離效果怎麼樣舉幾個例子跟我也報告一下就是說當他相關如果因為因為現在"},{"start":143.662,"end":164.368,"text":"我以我們軍艦來講,我們軍艦每天都有回到六七艘的軍艦,那它有可能會跨越,會逼近二十四海浬那我們會逼近二十四海浬跟進來,有這個企圖,也就是以它的船的一個方向來的話那我們根據不同的這個距離,二十四海浬然後再進來的話,我們會有不同的"},{"start":165.809,"end":187.683,"text":"這個應處的一個我剛剛都講你有你的標準作業流程是沒有問題啊我要聽的是具體的案例你要兩個方向嘛一個是你舉幾個個案然後去說明這個方案有用或沒用我們應該要做什麼處理要嘛你用通案說明我也接受所謂通案說明就是說來了幾次你分別用什麼樣的方式成效如何你會後做個整理這樣可不可以因為要出動到國防部表示狀況比較嚴重海巡要不要說明一下"},{"start":192.533,"end":210.543,"text":"不管在金門也好在東沙也好海警船進來或者是這一次6月6號那所有公路船他有8艘有4艘海警船3艘那個海巡船1艘那個救援船8艘我們都全部一對一病堂監控"},{"start":211.683,"end":225.612,"text":"然後廣播區裡其中在東部專案行動中其中有一度進到我們的限制水域沒錯我們就進破兆望然後廣播區裡一直到他離開我們的限制水域外沒有離開我們不會走"},{"start":226.345,"end":243.777,"text":"OK 所以你基本上是病行監控跟廣播劇是同步進行的嘛對不對如果像調查船的話調查船比方銅鏡號調查船那調查船他放儀器的時候我們甚至進破兆浪然後強迫他因為進破兆浪的話他就沒辦法研究他就沒辦法就不穩了嘛他就離開"},{"start":244.617,"end":270.672,"text":"好 這沒關係啦 我覺得這樣子我們用一個資料化的方式來處理啦就是進來的幾次 分別程度是什麼搭配你們的SOP 照常處理處於的成果怎麼樣因為大家其實比較擔心 因為大家都知道要廣播距離大家都知道要並行監控但大家擔心的是 你監控他也不走啊你廣播距離他留在那個地方那有沒有這樣子的一個狀況 未來要怎麼處理這個要預作準備 這是第一個提醒第二個是有關於消耗的問題這海巡大的艦艇大概是4000噸級的嘛"},{"start":272.473,"end":291.502,"text":"四千噸級的各種艦艇其實在預算中心的一些報告等等都有示警就是說對方是無差別無時差的連續的進犯跟騷擾那你騷擾的時候你都要監控你不能不處理那就像我們的空軍一樣它其實就造成長時間的一個消耗那麼具體來講包含人力 邊線比不足包含"},{"start":294.243,"end":305.315,"text":"這個零件的維修保養的頻率可能會因為這樣做一個更新我現在給你機會說明現在遇到的狀況它的出行次數有沒有超額的狀況需要什麼樣的一些額外的政府部門的一些支持"},{"start":306.452,"end":324.548,"text":"當然面對中共日益嚴峻的灰色地帶威脅的話當然海巡承受無比的壓力但是職責所在我們當然不知道我們艦船艇我們從艦艦到包括這次海空一體精錐海巡還有我們國防熱線特別條例我們都有經費要建造新的艦船艇"},{"start":325.569,"end":339.969,"text":"另外我們包括了維修保養、聽測還有我們勤精深系統也都有算進去目前都在招標中我們會全力來推動用科技來扶勤讓我們能夠全程掌握然後第一時間部署我們計產體來妥適應存"},{"start":341.71,"end":359.611,"text":"這本席以前在內政委員會我們從來都不會去為難這些預算其實大家都非常非常的清楚就希望可以如期如止啊去避免消耗我要特別也要提醒一下這不管國防也好海巡也好這是人力啊人力缺口其實很重要你不能裝備是更新對不對人力的補不上來那就是個這個是老問題但今天因為時間的限制我們就不在這邊詳細闡述了"},{"start":360.993,"end":385.825,"text":"第三個本期要提醒的有關於清潮的問題就是微型目標山板、橡皮艇、長驅直入過去我們在內政委會在海巡討論的時候講目標小到我也沒辦法用雷達來做處理這件事情當初就在事情發生的時候大家高度關注過了之後好像就傳過水無痕現在過了這麼一段時間大半年了或者是接近一年的時間有沒有一些新型的方式去因應這種微型的"},{"start":386.601,"end":406.241,"text":"包委員我們一天都沒有卸貸我們全國海岸線1821公里我們是親自左遍我們哪些不夠的比方說在國安任期特別預算我們特地我們有規劃經費非常感謝大約的通過那目前都在招標中包括我們要增置我們的更新型的次世代的雷達系統"},{"start":407.267,"end":422.373,"text":"可以看得更精密更遠另外侯外縣這寫相儀那包括各式無人機比方說我們的無人機無人艇包括水下載具目前都在招標作業中那麼我們希望用科技埔形來提升海巡的傾見增能量"},{"start":422.813,"end":441.15,"text":"在這個中間的,因為我想海巡能夠掌握這本席的了解啦,就是說海巡能夠掌握的武器也好,或者是相關的,當然跟國防部是有落差,國防部一定掌握是完整的嘛。在這中間的這個空窗期,我固定這麼說,因為你現在都在招標,從頭走程序,掌握採購,國防部可以提供什麼樣的一些資源,去避免這樣的事情再發生?"},{"start":442.605,"end":459.002,"text":"跟委員報告,其實海巡跟我們是互補的,海巡是在小型的這個部分,按照他們現在所講的其實是在加強當中也就是說,比如說他們應該要建設的各個紅外線的這個偵測的裝置如果能夠完整的話,這些小型目標"},{"start":460.123,"end":474.678,"text":"坦白講我們海軍的部分是比較著重在這個大型的目標上面我們希望聯合 因為之前有講過雷達系統的整合嘛國軍的跟海軍的要一起看等等 這些就請再幫忙好 這幾位請問 不好意思主席我再借一點點時間這個外交部有請委員好市長好 這個"},{"start":483.816,"end":501.057,"text":"這個我想詢問一下啦,這個劃接案,這剛剛連我們王逸川委員都看不下去了,對不對,這重砲開轟,對不對大家都很擔心啊,這個處理跟後續的一個問題啊那當然我看你的報告嘛,對不對,這個到底我們內部的反應是怎麼樣,這是一回事,這不是本席要關心的我要問的是其他的報告,因為你在報告裡有寫"},{"start":501.638,"end":520.007,"text":"就是說日非要談判跳過我方這在國內當然是群情激憤大家覺得這個有非常非常大的一個改進空間那問題是這樣嘛因為客觀上造成的結果就是中國大陸利用了這一次他們宣稱要談判的機會然後再一次的這個他片面的宣稱這個單邊的宣稱他可以來管轄這件事情"},{"start":520.507,"end":535.512,"text":"那外交部當然我在你報告裡看到了所以你做努力你也要求日非針對這個事情要必須做清楚的說明不過我稍微查了一下這個看起來日非沒有針對這個行為有進一步的說明你們要不要補充一下目前來說我們日非他們"},{"start":538.409,"end":558.579,"text":"這個 包括日本官方長官 木曰仁也說明的是說他們的日非的談判不涉及第三方同時根據這個維也納合約的這個公約上面的規範其實兩國的談判也是不涉及第三方不涉及第三方是講給我們聽的嘛 對不對因為他如果不是跳過大家就會很生氣啦 對不對所以他當然講要不涉及第三方嘛"},{"start":559.319,"end":578.017,"text":"你能不能主張是另外一回事但是我講你外交部的進一步的要求你報告裡寫的是針對中國大陸藉機這個宣稱執法這件事情這是另外一件事情他們針對這件事情有沒有更強烈的說法目前來說日本跟菲律賓來說我們沒看到他們相應的回應"},{"start":578.758,"end":594.105,"text":"那麼的確是說我們看到的是說那麼我也很了解是說包括歐洲國家那麼德國、法國跟英國有發表聯合聲明然後美國也有發表聲明所以這就是我要問的第二個問題就是這些國家發了聲明之後這些行為有緩解嗎?"},{"start":595.763,"end":618.499,"text":"行為有沒有緩解可能是那個在那個海委會在第一時間上面有掌握目前看起來並沒有在擴大的這個趨勢並沒有擴大不愧是外交官對不對但是恐怕也很難緩解啦這所謂的聯合聲明這個次長也是專業人士對吧聯合聲明如果沒有涉及這個相關當事人恐怕他拘束力也好影響力也好他畢竟是有限的"},{"start":618.979,"end":641.89,"text":"我講啦,這些東西是困難的,我也不想太為難外交部,但是我希望至少在話界等等會引發爭議的時候,我們至少針對我們的部分積極主張。你至少比如說我在第一時間我積極主張的時候,比如說是台灣、日本、菲律賓共同商議,對不對?那好歹大家還有一點說我們至少有些人,那個還算是可以商量的一個夥伴。如果我們自己被跳過的時候,那就大危機啦。我們在這個處境裡面是完全被動的。"},{"start":644.211,"end":673.603,"text":"所以我們也要求日本、菲律賓以後在討論因為這跟委員報告他們在高層summit meeting的時候其實主要的討論是他們將要討論這個事情那現在就是說我們主張說如果你要討論這個事情的時候第一個不可以違反我們跟日非之前都已經達成的愉悅的協定負有的協議你當然要尊重應該積極主張你要共同參與第二個也能夠讓我方的利益不能夠受到侵犯"},{"start":673.663,"end":690.351,"text":"如果是民主大聯盟的夥伴我們當然有資格也應該可以要到參與的實際的成果這件事情大家可以關注希望外交部反應要快一點不要讓這件事情陷入被動我們今天就不多為難了大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝 我們休息三分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}