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謝謝主席喔 這個國防部海委會有請好 謝謝陳勝林委員好"},{"start":14.701,"end":26.651,"text":"部長辛苦了,今天大家討論中國船舶常態化巡弋海運的因應作為,這其實是老問題了,各式各樣大小豐富層出不窮,大量體的艦艇騷擾,讓海巡"},{"start":32.755,"end":54.569,"text":"這個必須出動四千噸等等的要共同出傾來處理形成消耗的問題這個也有這種軍民不分嘛民用科研的問題那甚至有小型目標嘛之前是小三板這個橡皮艇就直接長驅直入等等的問題這過去其實都有很多的討論那有沒有新的因應之道其實社會大眾比較關注的就分別針對這幾個問題先請教一下這個幾位的一個看法"},{"start":57.771,"end":82.204,"text":"第一個我要問的是最近我看我包含在你們報告裡面都寫嘛遇到這樣一個狀況的時候大體來講標準作業流程你當然就是靠近然後用廣播驅離的方式來做處理那你我看你的內容都寫不管是海巡也好國防也好都寫廣播驅離嘛這是標準作業流程這本學院尊重但是具體來講它的效果是怎麼樣這個我覺得社會大眾很關心啊比如說他來之後你廣播驅離他就走了嗎"},{"start":83.254,"end":101.204,"text":"還是他留在原地然後你必須要用更強硬的手段去處理才有辦法化解這一次又一次的一個風波所以具體來講有沒有這個你能不能舉幾個例子就哪一天哪一次什麼樣的狀況你廣播之後他驅離了或他不走然後你們採取了什麼樣的一個手段可不可以先簡單說明一下"},{"start":103.325,"end":118.838,"text":"我的理解應該是這樣,廣播區裡的話,他應該是要進入到我們的相關的臨界區的範圍之內才會做廣播區裡現在就是越來越近嘛,對不對?現在看起來趨勢上還說是這樣他這次在東部執法的話,他的現象反而是在東部的應變區內外,他不斷地進行來來回回這樣子"},{"start":124.423,"end":141.217,"text":"沒關係我講了嘛就是說你講比如說他到一定的範圍內我必須啟動這樣的一個程序我講這叫標準作業流程這大家都理解那我要問的是效果所以他有沒有進來有沒有驅離效果怎麼樣舉幾個例子跟我也報告一下就是說當他相關如果因為因為現在"},{"start":143.662,"end":164.368,"text":"我以我們軍艦來講,我們軍艦每天都有回到六七艘的軍艦,那它有可能會跨越,會逼近二十四海浬那我們會逼近二十四海浬跟進來,有這個企圖,也就是以它的船的一個方向來的話那我們根據不同的這個距離,二十四海浬然後再進來的話,我們會有不同的"},{"start":165.809,"end":187.683,"text":"這個應處的一個我剛剛都講你有你的標準作業流程是沒有問題啊我要聽的是具體的案例你要兩個方向嘛一個是你舉幾個個案然後去說明這個方案有用或沒用我們應該要做什麼處理要嘛你用通案說明我也接受所謂通案說明就是說來了幾次你分別用什麼樣的方式成效如何你會後做個整理這樣可不可以因為要出動到國防部表示狀況比較嚴重海巡要不要說明一下"},{"start":192.533,"end":210.543,"text":"不管在金門也好在東沙也好海警船進來或者是這一次6月6號那所有公路船他有8艘有4艘海警船3艘那個海巡船1艘那個救援船8艘我們都全部一對一病堂監控"},{"start":211.683,"end":225.612,"text":"然後廣播區裡其中在東部專案行動中其中有一度進到我們的限制水域沒錯我們就進破兆望然後廣播區裡一直到他離開我們的限制水域外沒有離開我們不會走"},{"start":226.345,"end":243.777,"text":"OK 所以你基本上是病行監控跟廣播劇是同步進行的嘛對不對如果像調查船的話調查船比方銅鏡號調查船那調查船他放儀器的時候我們甚至進破兆浪然後強迫他因為進破兆浪的話他就沒辦法研究他就沒辦法就不穩了嘛他就離開"},{"start":244.617,"end":270.672,"text":"好 這沒關係啦 我覺得這樣子我們用一個資料化的方式來處理啦就是進來的幾次 分別程度是什麼搭配你們的SOP 照常處理處於的成果怎麼樣因為大家其實比較擔心 因為大家都知道要廣播距離大家都知道要並行監控但大家擔心的是 你監控他也不走啊你廣播距離他留在那個地方那有沒有這樣子的一個狀況 未來要怎麼處理這個要預作準備 這是第一個提醒第二個是有關於消耗的問題這海巡大的艦艇大概是4000噸級的嘛"},{"start":272.473,"end":291.502,"text":"四千噸級的各種艦艇其實在預算中心的一些報告等等都有示警就是說對方是無差別無時差的連續的進犯跟騷擾那你騷擾的時候你都要監控你不能不處理那就像我們的空軍一樣它其實就造成長時間的一個消耗那麼具體來講包含人力 邊線比不足包含"},{"start":294.243,"end":305.315,"text":"這個零件的維修保養的頻率可能會因為這樣做一個更新我現在給你機會說明現在遇到的狀況它的出行次數有沒有超額的狀況需要什麼樣的一些額外的政府部門的一些支持"},{"start":306.452,"end":324.548,"text":"當然面對中共日益嚴峻的灰色地帶威脅的話當然海巡承受無比的壓力但是職責所在我們當然不知道我們艦船艇我們從艦艦到包括這次海空一體精錐海巡還有我們國防熱線特別條例我們都有經費要建造新的艦船艇"},{"start":325.569,"end":339.969,"text":"另外我們包括了維修保養、聽測還有我們勤精深系統也都有算進去目前都在招標中我們會全力來推動用科技來扶勤讓我們能夠全程掌握然後第一時間部署我們計產體來妥適應存"},{"start":341.71,"end":359.611,"text":"這本席以前在內政委員會我們從來都不會去為難這些預算其實大家都非常非常的清楚就希望可以如期如止啊去避免消耗我要特別也要提醒一下這不管國防也好海巡也好這是人力啊人力缺口其實很重要你不能裝備是更新對不對人力的補不上來那就是個這個是老問題但今天因為時間的限制我們就不在這邊詳細闡述了"},{"start":360.993,"end":385.825,"text":"第三個本期要提醒的有關於清潮的問題就是微型目標山板、橡皮艇、長驅直入過去我們在內政委會在海巡討論的時候講目標小到我也沒辦法用雷達來做處理這件事情當初就在事情發生的時候大家高度關注過了之後好像就傳過水無痕現在過了這麼一段時間大半年了或者是接近一年的時間有沒有一些新型的方式去因應這種微型的"},{"start":386.601,"end":406.241,"text":"包委員我們一天都沒有卸貸我們全國海岸線1821公里我們是親自左遍我們哪些不夠的比方說在國安任期特別預算我們特地我們有規劃經費非常感謝大約的通過那目前都在招標中包括我們要增置我們的更新型的次世代的雷達系統"},{"start":407.267,"end":422.373,"text":"可以看得更精密更遠另外侯外縣這寫相儀那包括各式無人機比方說我們的無人機無人艇包括水下載具目前都在招標作業中那麼我們希望用科技埔形來提升海巡的傾見增能量"},{"start":422.813,"end":441.15,"text":"在這個中間的,因為我想海巡能夠掌握這本席的了解啦,就是說海巡能夠掌握的武器也好,或者是相關的,當然跟國防部是有落差,國防部一定掌握是完整的嘛。在這中間的這個空窗期,我固定這麼說,因為你現在都在招標,從頭走程序,掌握採購,國防部可以提供什麼樣的一些資源,去避免這樣的事情再發生?"},{"start":442.605,"end":459.002,"text":"跟委員報告,其實海巡跟我們是互補的,海巡是在小型的這個部分,按照他們現在所講的其實是在加強當中也就是說,比如說他們應該要建設的各個紅外線的這個偵測的裝置如果能夠完整的話,這些小型目標"},{"start":460.123,"end":474.678,"text":"坦白講我們海軍的部分是比較著重在這個大型的目標上面我們希望聯合 因為之前有講過雷達系統的整合嘛國軍的跟海軍的要一起看等等 這些就請再幫忙好 這幾位請問 不好意思主席我再借一點點時間這個外交部有請委員好市長好 這個"},{"start":483.816,"end":501.057,"text":"這個我想詢問一下啦,這個劃接案,這剛剛連我們王逸川委員都看不下去了,對不對,這重砲開轟,對不對大家都很擔心啊,這個處理跟後續的一個問題啊那當然我看你的報告嘛,對不對,這個到底我們內部的反應是怎麼樣,這是一回事,這不是本席要關心的我要問的是其他的報告,因為你在報告裡有寫"},{"start":501.638,"end":520.007,"text":"就是說日非要談判跳過我方這在國內當然是群情激憤大家覺得這個有非常非常大的一個改進空間那問題是這樣嘛因為客觀上造成的結果就是中國大陸利用了這一次他們宣稱要談判的機會然後再一次的這個他片面的宣稱這個單邊的宣稱他可以來管轄這件事情"},{"start":520.507,"end":535.512,"text":"那外交部當然我在你報告裡看到了所以你做努力你也要求日非針對這個事情要必須做清楚的說明不過我稍微查了一下這個看起來日非沒有針對這個行為有進一步的說明你們要不要補充一下目前來說我們日非他們"},{"start":538.409,"end":558.579,"text":"這個 包括日本官方長官 木曰仁也說明的是說他們的日非的談判不涉及第三方同時根據這個維也納合約的這個公約上面的規範其實兩國的談判也是不涉及第三方不涉及第三方是講給我們聽的嘛 對不對因為他如果不是跳過大家就會很生氣啦 對不對所以他當然講要不涉及第三方嘛"},{"start":559.319,"end":578.017,"text":"你能不能主張是另外一回事但是我講你外交部的進一步的要求你報告裡寫的是針對中國大陸藉機這個宣稱執法這件事情這是另外一件事情他們針對這件事情有沒有更強烈的說法目前來說日本跟菲律賓來說我們沒看到他們相應的回應"},{"start":578.758,"end":594.105,"text":"那麼的確是說我們看到的是說那麼我也很了解是說包括歐洲國家那麼德國、法國跟英國有發表聯合聲明然後美國也有發表聲明所以這就是我要問的第二個問題就是這些國家發了聲明之後這些行為有緩解嗎?"},{"start":595.763,"end":618.499,"text":"行為有沒有緩解可能是那個在那個海委會在第一時間上面有掌握目前看起來並沒有在擴大的這個趨勢並沒有擴大不愧是外交官對不對但是恐怕也很難緩解啦這所謂的聯合聲明這個次長也是專業人士對吧聯合聲明如果沒有涉及這個相關當事人恐怕他拘束力也好影響力也好他畢竟是有限的"},{"start":618.979,"end":641.89,"text":"我講啦,這些東西是困難的,我也不想太為難外交部,但是我希望至少在話界等等會引發爭議的時候,我們至少針對我們的部分積極主張。你至少比如說我在第一時間我積極主張的時候,比如說是台灣、日本、菲律賓共同商議,對不對?那好歹大家還有一點說我們至少有些人,那個還算是可以商量的一個夥伴。如果我們自己被跳過的時候,那就大危機啦。我們在這個處境裡面是完全被動的。"},{"start":644.211,"end":673.603,"text":"所以我們也要求日本、菲律賓以後在討論因為這跟委員報告他們在高層summit meeting的時候其實主要的討論是他們將要討論這個事情那現在就是說我們主張說如果你要討論這個事情的時候第一個不可以違反我們跟日非之前都已經達成的愉悅的協定負有的協議你當然要尊重應該積極主張你要共同參與第二個也能夠讓我方的利益不能夠受到侵犯"},{"start":673.663,"end":690.351,"text":"如果是民主大聯盟的夥伴我們當然有資格也應該可以要到參與的實際的成果這件事情大家可以關注希望外交部反應要快一點不要讓這件事情陷入被動我們今天就不多為難了大家辛苦了 謝謝好 謝謝 我們休息三分鐘"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:51.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:51.770000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:53.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:54.012000+08:00","text":"國防部、海委會有請。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:54.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:54.153000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:15:54.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:15:55.775000+08:00","text":"是，牛委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:05.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:06.662000+08:00","text":"部長辛苦了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:07.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:39.525000+08:00","text":"今天大家討論「中國船舶常態化巡弋我國海域之因應作為」，這其實是老問題了，各式各樣的大小風波層出不窮，大的有大量體艦艇的騷擾，讓海巡必須出動4,000噸等等的，要共同出勤處理，形成消耗的問題；也有軍民不分，民用科研的問題；甚至有小型目標，之前是小舢舨、橡皮艇直接長驅直入等等的問題。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:39.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:45.549000+08:00","text":"這個過去都有很多討論，有沒有新的因應之道其實是社會大眾比較關注的，就分別針對這幾個問題先請教一下幾位的看法。","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:16:48.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:16:59.417000+08:00","text":"第一個我要問的是，包含在你們報告裡面都寫了，遇到這種狀況的時候，大體來講就標準作業流程，當然就是靠近，然後用廣播驅離的方式處理。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:00.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:09.522000+08:00","text":"我看你的內容，不管海巡也好，國防也好，都是寫廣播驅離，這是標準作業流程，本席願意尊重，但是具體來講它的效果是怎麼樣？","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:09.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:13.204000+08:00","text":"這個我覺得社會大眾很關心，比如它來了之後，你廣播驅離，它就走了嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:21.118000+08:00","text":"還是它留在原地，然後你必須要用更強硬的手段去處理，才有辦法化解一次又一次的風波？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:21.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:32.044000+08:00","text":"所以你能不能舉幾個具體的例子，就是哪一天、哪一次、什麼樣的狀況你廣播之後它被驅離了，或者它不走，然後你們採取了什麼樣的一個手段，可不可以先簡單說明？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:34.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:41.932000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就我的理解應該是這樣，廣播驅離的話，它應該是要進入到我們相關鄰接區的範圍之內，我們才會做廣播驅離。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:42.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:43.593000+08:00","text":"當然，現在就是越來越近，對不對？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:43.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:45.455000+08:00","text":"現在看起來，就趨勢上來說是這樣子。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:45.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:49.818000+08:00","text":"這一次在東部執法的話，其現象反而是在東部的應變區內外，它不斷地進行、來來回回這樣子。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:55.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:17:56.264000+08:00","text":"對，沒關係，我講了嘛！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:17:57.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:02.068000+08:00","text":"比如它到一定的範圍內，我必須啟動這樣的一個程序，我講這叫標準作業流程，這個大家都理解。是。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:02.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:06.832000+08:00","text":"那我要問的是效果，它有沒有進來、有沒有驅離、效果怎麼樣？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:06.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:06.932000+08:00","text":"舉幾個例子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:07.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:24.185000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我以軍艦來講，每天都有迴繞6、7艘的軍艦，它有可能會逼近24浬。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:24.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:37.329000+08:00","text":"逼近24浬跟進來、有這個企圖的，也就是以船的一個方向來的話，那我們根據不同的距離，24浬，然後再進來的話，我們會有不同的應處的一個……","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:37.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:39.991000+08:00","text":"我剛剛都講了，你有你的標準作業流程，這是沒有問題的。對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:40.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:54.940000+08:00","text":"我要聽的是具體案例，你要從兩個方向，一個是你舉幾個個案，然後去說明這個方案有用或沒用，我們應該要做怎麼樣的處理；要嘛你用通案說明我也接受，所謂通案說明就是，來了幾次，你分別用什麼樣的方式、成效如何，你會後做個整理，這樣可不可以？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:55.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:57.582000+08:00","text":"沒關係，因為要出動到國防部表示狀況比較嚴重。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:18:57.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:18:58.663000+08:00","text":"海巡要不要說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:03.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:21.523000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我用通案來報告，不管在金門也好，在東沙也好，海警船進來，或者是這一次6月6日所有公務船，他有4艘海警船、3艘海巡船、1艘救援船，8艘我們都全部一對一併航監控。OK。","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:23.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:28.987000+08:00","text":"包括廣播驅離，其中在東部專案行動中，有一度進到我們的限制水域。沒錯。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:28.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:36.592000+08:00","text":"我們就近迫造浪廣播驅離，一直到它離開我們的限制水域外，沒有離開我們不會走的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:37.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:39.366000+08:00","text":"OK，所以你基本上是併航監控……對。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:39.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:42.108000+08:00","text":"跟廣播驅離是同步進行的，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:42.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:53.135000+08:00","text":"像調查船的話，比方「同濟號」調查船，調查船放儀器的時候，我們甚至迫近造浪，然後強迫它，因為迫近造浪的話就沒辦法研究，最後它就離開。","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:53.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:19:54.316000+08:00","text":"它就沒辦法，就不穩了嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:19:56.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:11.666000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我覺得我們用一個資料化的方式來處理，包括進來了幾次、程度分別是什麼、搭配你們SOP照常處理的成果怎麼樣，因為大家其實會擔心，大家都知道要廣播驅離，大家都知道要併航監控，但是大家擔心的是即使你進行監控，它也不走啊！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:12.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:15.629000+08:00","text":"即使你廣播驅離，它還是留在那個地方，有沒有這樣的狀況？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:15.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:16.289000+08:00","text":"未來要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:16.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:18.170000+08:00","text":"這個都要預做準備，這是本席的第一個提醒。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:18.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:40.321000+08:00","text":"第二個是有關於消耗的問題，海巡大的艦艇就是4,000噸級，對於4,000噸級的各種艦艇，其實在預算中心的一些報告等等都有示警，就是對方是無差別、無時差在連續進犯跟騷擾，在發生騷擾的時候，你都要監控，你不能不處理，就像我們的空軍一樣，其實就會造成長時間的消耗。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:40.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:48.227000+08:00","text":"具體來講，包含人力的編現比不足，包含零件維修保養的頻率提高，可能會因為這樣而需要更新。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:48.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:53.892000+08:00","text":"我現在給你機會說明，現在他們出勤的次數有沒有超額的狀況？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:53.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:20:56.295000+08:00","text":"需要政府部門一些什麼樣額外的支持？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:20:57.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:04.638000+08:00","text":"面對中共日益嚴峻的灰色地帶威脅，海巡當然承受無比的壓力，但是職責所在，我們當仁不讓。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:05.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:15.548000+08:00","text":"我們艦船艇的籌建案，包括這一次「海空一體、精銳海巡」還有我們的國安韌性特別條例，我們都有經費要建造新的艦船艇。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:16.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:30.949000+08:00","text":"另外，包括維修保養廳舍還有我們情監偵系統也都有算進去，目前都在招標中，我們會全力來推動，用科技來輔勤，讓我們能夠全程掌握，然後第一時間部署我們艦船艇來妥適應處。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:32.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:39.578000+08:00","text":"本席以前在內政委員會，我們從來都不會去為難這些預算，其實大家都非常非常的清楚，就是希望可以如期如質，避免消耗。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:39.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:50.591000+08:00","text":"我也要特別提醒一下，不管是國防也好、海巡也好，補齊人力缺口其實很重要，你不能只有一直更新裝備而人力卻補不上來，這個已經是老問題了，今天因為時間的限制，我們就不在這邊詳細闡述了。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:51.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:21:55.955000+08:00","text":"第三個，本席要提醒你們，關於這樣的侵擾問題，其實就是微型目標嘛！","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:21:56.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:16.805000+08:00","text":"像舢舨、橡皮艇長驅直入，過去我們在內政委員會和海巡討論時講到目標小到沒辦法用雷達來做處理，當初在事情發生的時候大家都高度關注，可是過了之後好像就船過水無痕，到現在過了一段這麼長的時間，已經大半年或接近一年了，你們有沒有一些新型的方式去因應這種微型的騷擾？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:17.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:19.143000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們一天都沒有懈怠……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:19.143000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:20.143000+08:00","text":"我相信。","quality":0},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:20.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:40.028000+08:00","text":"我們親自走遍全國海岸線1,821公里看有哪些不夠的，比方說，在國安韌性特別預算我們有規劃經費，非常感謝大院通過，目前都在招標中，包括我們要增置更新型的次世代雷達系統，可以看得更精密、更遠。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"謝副署長慶欽","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:40.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:22:53.353000+08:00","text":"另外還有紅外線熱顯像儀，也包括各式無人機，比方說，我們的無人機、無人艇包括水下載具目前都在招標作業中，我們希望用科技輔勤來提升海巡的情監偵能量。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:22:57.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:03.762000+08:00","text":"據本席了解，海巡能夠掌握的武器或者是相關設備當然跟國防部有落差，國防部一定是掌握完整的。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:04.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:12.130000+08:00","text":"在這個中間的空窗期，我姑且這麼說，因為你們現在都在招標，總是要走採購等程序，國防部可以提供什麼的資源去避免這樣的事情再發生？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:13.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:17.709000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實海巡跟我們是互補的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:17.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:18.709000+08:00","text":"應該是互補嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:18.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:30.002000+08:00","text":"海巡在小型的這個部分按照他們所講的其實現在正在加強當中，比如說，他們應該要建置各個紅外線的偵測裝置，如果能夠完整的話，就可以偵測到這些小型目標。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:31.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:35.467000+08:00","text":"坦白講，我們海軍的部分是比較著重在大型的目標上面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:36.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:41.894000+08:00","text":"我們希望你們聯合，因為之前也有講過，比如說雷達系統的整合，國軍的跟海巡的要一起看，像這些都請你們再幫忙。","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:42.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:45.317000+08:00","text":"幾位請回，主席，不好意思，我再借一點點時間，有請外交部。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:45.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:45.497000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:45.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:45.658000+08:00","text":"次長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:54.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:23:59.662000+08:00","text":"我想詢問一下劃界案，連王義川委員都看不下去了，所以剛剛也重砲開轟，對不對？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:23:59.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.654000+08:00","text":"大家都很擔心後續處理的問題，我看了你的報告，關於內部的反應到底是怎麼樣，這是一回事，並不是本席要關心的。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:09.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:19.221000+08:00","text":"我要問的是其他的問題，因為你在報告裡面有寫日菲要談判卻跳過我方，我們國內當然會群情激憤，大家覺得這個有非常非常大的改進空間。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:20.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:38.049000+08:00","text":"現在問題是這樣，客觀上造成的結果就是中國大陸利用這一次日菲宣布要談判的機會，然後再一次片面、單邊的宣稱他們可以來管轄這件事情，我在外交部的報告裡面看到你做了努力、你也要求日菲針對這個事情必須做清楚的說明。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:38.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:44.211000+08:00","text":"不過我稍微查了一下，看起來日菲沒有針對這個行為做進一步的說明，你們要不要補充一下？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:45.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:03.516000+08:00","text":"以目前來說，日本官房長官木原稔的說明是他們日菲的談判不涉及第三方，同時根據維也納公約的規範，其實兩國的談判也是不涉及第三方。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:03.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:05.197000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個不涉及第三方是講給我們聽的嘛！","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:05.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:05.857000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:05.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:09.559000+08:00","text":"因為他如果說是跳過，那大家就會很生氣，所以他當然要講不涉及第三方嘛！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:10.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:19.949000+08:00","text":"你能不能主張是另外一回事，但是你外交部要進一步的要求，在你的報告裡面所寫的中國大陸藉機宣稱執法這件事情，這是另外一件事情，對不對？對。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:21.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:23.192000+08:00","text":"他們針對這件事情有沒有更強烈的說法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:23.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:24.213000+08:00","text":"或者是站在他們自己的立場……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:24.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:30.358000+08:00","text":"以目前來說，我們沒有看到日本跟菲律賓有相應的回應。是啊！","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:32.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:40.523000+08:00","text":"委員也很了解，包括德國、法國跟英國等歐洲國家有發表聯合聲明，然後美國也有發表聲明。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:40.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:45.105000+08:00","text":"這就是我要問的第二個問題，在這些國家發了聲明之後，這些行為有緩解嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:46.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:55.529000+08:00","text":"關於這些行為有沒有緩解，可能海委會在第一時間上面有掌握，目前看起來並沒有再擴大的趨勢。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:55.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:55.929000+08:00","text":"並沒有擴大……對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:56.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:57.450000+08:00","text":"不愧是外交官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:58.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:03.575000+08:00","text":"但是恐怕也很難緩解，對於所謂的聯合聲明，次長也是專業人士，對吧？沒有。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:04.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:09.479000+08:00","text":"聯合聲明如果沒有涉及相關當事人，恐怕它的拘束力也好、影響力也好，畢竟都是有限的。是。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:09.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:13.321000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，這些東西是困難的，我也不想太為難外交部。謝謝。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:13.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:19.243000+08:00","text":"但是我希望在劃界等等會引發爭議的時候，我們至少針對我們的部分積極主張。是。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:19.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:24.506000+08:00","text":"你們應該在第一時間提出積極的主張，比如說是臺灣、日本、菲律賓共同商議，對不對？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:24.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:31.129000+08:00","text":"好歹至少把我們當成算是可以商量的一個夥伴，如果我們自己被跳過了，那就是大危機啦！","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:31.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:32.870000+08:00","text":"因為我們在那個處境裡面是完全被動的。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:35.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:56.260000+08:00","text":"當然，我們也有要求日本、菲律賓，他們高層在summit meeting的時候其實主要是討論他們將要討論這個事情，現在我們就是主張如果你們要討論這個事情，第一個不可以違反我們跟日、菲之前都已經達成的漁業協議……","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:56.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:00.461000+08:00","text":"對固有的協議當然要尊重，你應該積極主張要共同參與，對不對？是。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:00.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:04.583000+08:00","text":"第二個就是要讓我方的利益不能夠受到侵犯。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:04.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:11.766000+08:00","text":"如果是民主大聯盟的夥伴，我們當然有資格也應該可以要到參與的實際成果，大家都密切關注這件事情啦！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:11.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:13.407000+08:00","text":"這個我們努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:13.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:17.109000+08:00","text":"希望外交部的反應要快一點，不要讓這件事情陷入被動，好不好？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:17.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:18.109000+08:00","text":"是，一定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"牛委員煦庭","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:17.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:20.410000+08:00","text":"我們今天就不多為難了，大家辛苦了！謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:20.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:20.730000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:20.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:21.351000+08:00","text":"我們休息3分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:21.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:22.993857+08:00","text":"休息（11時27分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:23.293857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:25.008143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時32分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:25.308143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:29.308143+08:00","text":"好，接下來我們請王安祥委員，謝謝。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":666,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時15分）謝謝主席。國防部、海委會有請。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了。今天大家討論「中國船舶常態化巡弋我國海域之因應作為」，這其實是老問題了，各式各樣的大小風波層出不窮，大的有大量體艦艇的騷擾，讓海巡必須出動4,000噸等等的，要共同出勤處理，形成消耗的問題；也有軍民不分，民用科研的問題；甚至有小型目標，之前是小舢舨、橡皮艇直接長驅直入等等的問題。這個過去都有很多討論，有沒有新的因應之道其實是社會大眾比較關注的，就分別針對這幾個問題先請教一下幾位的看法。","第一個我要問的是，包含在你們報告裡面都寫了，遇到這種狀況的時候，大體來講就標準作業流程，當然就是靠近，然後用廣播驅離的方式處理。我看你的內容，不管海巡也好，國防也好，都是寫廣播驅離，這是標準作業流程，本席願意尊重，但是具體來講它的效果是怎麼樣？這個我覺得社會大眾很關心，比如它來了之後，你廣播驅離，它就走了嗎？還是它留在原地，然後你必須要用更強硬的手段去處理，才有辦法化解一次又一次的風波？所以你能不能舉幾個具體的例子，就是哪一天、哪一次、什麼樣的狀況你廣播之後它被驅離了，或者它不走，然後你們採取了什麼樣的一個手段，可不可以先簡單說明？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，就我的理解應該是這樣，廣播驅離的話，它應該是要進入到我們相關鄰接區的範圍之內，我們才會做廣播驅離。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然，現在就是越來越近，對不對？現在看起來，就趨勢上來說是這樣子。"],["顧部長立雄：這一次在東部執法的話，其現象反而是在東部的應變區內外，它不斷地進行、來來回回這樣子。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，沒關係，我講了嘛！比如它到一定的範圍內，我必須啟動這樣的一個程序，我講這叫標準作業流程，這個大家都理解。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那我要問的是效果，它有沒有進來、有沒有驅離、效果怎麼樣？舉幾個例子。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我以軍艦來講，每天都有迴繞6、7艘的軍艦，它有可能會逼近24浬。逼近24浬跟進來、有這個企圖的，也就是以船的一個方向來的話，那我們根據不同的距離，24浬，然後再進來的話，我們會有不同的應處的一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：我剛剛都講了，你有你的標準作業流程，這是沒有問題的。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：我要聽的是具體案例，你要從兩個方向，一個是你舉幾個個案，然後去說明這個方案有用或沒用，我們應該要做怎麼樣的處理；要嘛你用通案說明我也接受，所謂通案說明就是，來了幾次，你分別用什麼樣的方式、成效如何，你會後做個整理，這樣可不可以？沒關係，因為要出動到國防部表示狀況比較嚴重。","海巡要不要說明一下？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我用通案來報告，不管在金門也好，在東沙也好，海警船進來，或者是這一次6月6日所有公務船，他有4艘海警船、3艘海巡船、1艘救援船，8艘我們都全部一對一併航監控。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK。"],["謝副署長慶欽：包括廣播驅離，其中在東部專案行動中，有一度進到我們的限制水域。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們就近迫造浪廣播驅離，一直到它離開我們的限制水域外，沒有離開我們不會走的。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，所以你基本上是併航監控……"],["謝副署長慶欽：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：跟廣播驅離是同步進行的，對不對？"],["謝副署長慶欽：像調查船的話，比方「同濟號」調查船，調查船放儀器的時候，我們甚至迫近造浪，然後強迫它，因為迫近造浪的話就沒辦法研究，最後它就離開。"],["牛委員煦庭：它就沒辦法，就不穩了嘛！沒關係，我覺得我們用一個資料化的方式來處理，包括進來了幾次、程度分別是什麼、搭配你們SOP照常處理的成果怎麼樣，因為大家其實會擔心，大家都知道要廣播驅離，大家都知道要併航監控，但是大家擔心的是即使你進行監控，它也不走啊！即使你廣播驅離，它還是留在那個地方，有沒有這樣的狀況？未來要怎麼處理？這個都要預做準備，這是本席的第一個提醒。","第二個是有關於消耗的問題，海巡大的艦艇就是4,000噸級，對於4,000噸級的各種艦艇，其實在預算中心的一些報告等等都有示警，就是對方是無差別、無時差在連續進犯跟騷擾，在發生騷擾的時候，你都要監控，你不能不處理，就像我們的空軍一樣，其實就會造成長時間的消耗。具體來講，包含人力的編現比不足，包含零件維修保養的頻率提高，可能會因為這樣而需要更新。我現在給你機會說明，現在他們出勤的次數有沒有超額的狀況？需要政府部門一些什麼樣額外的支持？"],["謝副署長慶欽：面對中共日益嚴峻的灰色地帶威脅，海巡當然承受無比的壓力，但是職責所在，我們當仁不讓。我們艦船艇的籌建案，包括這一次「海空一體、精銳海巡」還有我們的國安韌性特別條例，我們都有經費要建造新的艦船艇。另外，包括維修保養廳舍還有我們情監偵系統也都有算進去，目前都在招標中，我們會全力來推動，用科技來輔勤，讓我們能夠全程掌握，然後第一時間部署我們艦船艇來妥適應處。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席以前在內政委員會，我們從來都不會去為難這些預算，其實大家都非常非常的清楚，就是希望可以如期如質，避免消耗。我也要特別提醒一下，不管是國防也好、海巡也好，補齊人力缺口其實很重要，你不能只有一直更新裝備而人力卻補不上來，這個已經是老問題了，今天因為時間的限制，我們就不在這邊詳細闡述了。","第三個，本席要提醒你們，關於這樣的侵擾問題，其實就是微型目標嘛！像舢舨、橡皮艇長驅直入，過去我們在內政委員會和海巡討論時講到目標小到沒辦法用雷達來做處理，當初在事情發生的時候大家都高度關注，可是過了之後好像就船過水無痕，到現在過了一段這麼長的時間，已經大半年或接近一年了，你們有沒有一些新型的方式去因應這種微型的騷擾？"],["謝副署長慶欽：報告委員，我們一天都沒有懈怠……"],["牛委員煦庭：我相信。"],["謝副署長慶欽：我們親自走遍全國海岸線1,821公里看有哪些不夠的，比方說，在國安韌性特別預算我們有規劃經費，非常感謝大院通過，目前都在招標中，包括我們要增置更新型的次世代雷達系統，可以看得更精密、更遠。另外還有紅外線熱顯像儀，也包括各式無人機，比方說，我們的無人機、無人艇包括水下載具目前都在招標作業中，我們希望用科技輔勤來提升海巡的情監偵能量。"],["牛委員煦庭：據本席了解，海巡能夠掌握的武器或者是相關設備當然跟國防部有落差，國防部一定是掌握完整的。在這個中間的空窗期，我姑且這麼說，因為你們現在都在招標，總是要走採購等程序，國防部可以提供什麼的資源去避免這樣的事情再發生？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，其實海巡跟我們是互補的……"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是互補嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：海巡在小型的這個部分按照他們所講的其實現在正在加強當中，比如說，他們應該要建置各個紅外線的偵測裝置，如果能夠完整的話，就可以偵測到這些小型目標。坦白講，我們海軍的部分是比較著重在大型的目標上面。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望你們聯合，因為之前也有講過，比如說雷達系統的整合，國軍的跟海巡的要一起看，像這些都請你們再幫忙。幾位請回，主席，不好意思，我再借一點點時間，有請外交部。"],["陳次長明祺：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長好。我想詢問一下劃界案，連王義川委員都看不下去了，所以剛剛也重砲開轟，對不對？大家都很擔心後續處理的問題，我看了你的報告，關於內部的反應到底是怎麼樣，這是一回事，並不是本席要關心的。我要問的是其他的問題，因為你在報告裡面有寫日菲要談判卻跳過我方，我們國內當然會群情激憤，大家覺得這個有非常非常大的改進空間。現在問題是這樣，客觀上造成的結果就是中國大陸利用這一次日菲宣布要談判的機會，然後再一次片面、單邊的宣稱他們可以來管轄這件事情，我在外交部的報告裡面看到你做了努力、你也要求日菲針對這個事情必須做清楚的說明。不過我稍微查了一下，看起來日菲沒有針對這個行為做進一步的說明，你們要不要補充一下？"],["陳次長明祺：以目前來說，日本官房長官木原稔的說明是他們日菲的談判不涉及第三方，同時根據維也納公約的規範，其實兩國的談判也是不涉及第三方。"],["牛委員煦庭：我覺得這個不涉及第三方是講給我們聽的嘛！對不對？因為他如果說是跳過，那大家就會很生氣，所以他當然要講不涉及第三方嘛！你能不能主張是另外一回事，但是你外交部要進一步的要求，在你的報告裡面所寫的中國大陸藉機宣稱執法這件事情，這是另外一件事情，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：他們針對這件事情有沒有更強烈的說法？或者是站在他們自己的立場……"],["陳次長明祺：以目前來說，我們沒有看到日本跟菲律賓有相應的回應。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！"],["陳次長明祺：委員也很了解，包括德國、法國跟英國等歐洲國家有發表聯合聲明，然後美國也有發表聲明。"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是我要問的第二個問題，在這些國家發了聲明之後，這些行為有緩解嗎？"],["陳次長明祺：關於這些行為有沒有緩解，可能海委會在第一時間上面有掌握，目前看起來並沒有再擴大的趨勢。"],["牛委員煦庭：並沒有擴大……"],["陳次長明祺：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：不愧是外交官。但是恐怕也很難緩解，對於所謂的聯合聲明，次長也是專業人士，對吧？"],["陳次長明祺：沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：聯合聲明如果沒有涉及相關當事人，恐怕它的拘束力也好、影響力也好，畢竟都是有限的。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，這些東西是困難的，我也不想太為難外交部。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是我希望在劃界等等會引發爭議的時候，我們至少針對我們的部分積極主張。"],["陳次長明祺：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們應該在第一時間提出積極的主張，比如說是臺灣、日本、菲律賓共同商議，對不對？好歹至少把我們當成算是可以商量的一個夥伴，如果我們自己被跳過了，那就是大危機啦！因為我們在那個處境裡面是完全被動的。"],["陳次長明祺：當然，我們也有要求日本、菲律賓，他們高層在summit meeting的時候其實主要是討論他們將要討論這個事情，現在我們就是主張如果你們要討論這個事情，第一個不可以違反我們跟日、菲之前都已經達成的漁業協議……"],["牛委員煦庭：對固有的協議當然要尊重，你應該積極主張要共同參與，對不對？"],["陳次長明祺：是。第二個就是要讓我方的利益不能夠受到侵犯。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果是民主大聯盟的夥伴，我們當然有資格也應該可以要到參與的實際成果，大家都密切關注這件事情啦！"],["陳次長明祺：這個我們努力。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望外交部的反應要快一點，不要讓這件事情陷入被動，好不好？"],["陳次長明祺：是，一定。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天就不多為難了，大家辛苦了！謝謝。"],["陳次長明祺：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們休息3分鐘。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時32分）"],["主席：好，接下來我們請王安祥委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-24","speakers":["陳冠廷","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","林楚茵","陳雪生","馬文君","王義川","沈伯洋","牛煦庭","王安祥","許忠信","鍾佳濱","黃建賓","賴士葆","翁曉玲","郭昱晴","黃仁","邱志偉"],"page_start":313,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部、外交部、海洋委員會海巡署、大陸委員會報告「中國船舶常態化巡弋我國海域之因\n應作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}