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董事長 獨立董事有沒有再一次 再去翻檢一次說到底他們符不符合這一條要求因為這已經嚴重涉及利益衝突那來自我們全體2300萬人我們辛苦的血汗錢存到這些銀行這些金控"},{"start":164.881,"end":188.454,"text":"今天我們存款的全國存款的額度有來到65兆這都是我們全民辛苦得來的所以不管是公營民營都不能有這種事情發生這很清楚的他們這麼做的心態就是堅守制道"},{"start":189.758,"end":211.336,"text":"那你有沒有這個部分的計畫作為好謝謝委員給我說明我想剛剛委員有幾件事情我想再跟委員重申一下其實第一個委員問說那個所有的負責人上任的時候應該因為我們的不同業別有不一樣就是假設剛剛委員講銀行的話應該他上任的時候就要符合我們的消極跟積極資格"},{"start":213.177,"end":239.14,"text":"那個積極資格裡面是他專業消極就是他有兼任有沒有不符合這個規定他必須先做這個事情然後再來就是那接下來他的兼任呢按照他們自己的內控還有我們班訂的這些規定裡面他必須要在通常上任的時候你有新兼或是這個改變的時候你要去做申報那申報他們也要定期的去查核他們自己有沒有兼職那剛剛委員提到他們在投信的地方"},{"start":240.061,"end":254.597,"text":"產生這個環節的落差就是說他投信因為你的董事他又兼投信的董事沒有再去申報他去投資另外一家公司結果他買到他這家公司的那個股票那這個沒有申報你們怎麼處罰這個影響很大現在他會這樣的話因為他會違反我們的內控內基制度"},{"start":262.556,"end":278.047,"text":"對 你們怎麼處罰就按照我們的規定裡面不同的法律有不一樣的罰度像我想待會請銀行局長假設你在銀行違反內空內紀錄的話最多可以罰到多少錢那比如說你在你們去罰了嗎"},{"start":279.771,"end":298.825,"text":"阿去要求他們去解職了嗎?謝委員就是我們在一路知道這件事情的時候我們就要釐清他真相找他來問了非常多次而且我們也請他補充非常多因為我們要釐清事實才能夠給予精準的處罰才能夠我們監理機關不能夠用臆測方式去處罰他所以"},{"start":304.329,"end":326.307,"text":"離清那個錯誤事實我是講得很難聽 那種叫犯罪事實離清犯罪事實當然要時間但是清查這個犯罪狀況 犯罪狀態的存在其實很快啊那個調資料所有名冊這樣去勾結就知道了啊"},{"start":327.308,"end":356.512,"text":"這一件事情就是我們金管會疏於勾肌嘛還有一項就是像比方說銀行的賤價昨天我的助理們問檢察局說就這五年來呀我們檢察局有沒有針對銀行 金控他們受信的時候那些財產單保評的這個賤價有沒有去做了解去評估說這有沒有不實的啦"},{"start":356.972,"end":383.687,"text":"因為這不時有很多情況有的是他是因為專業不足可能無資但是有的他是有心的那個可能是被動無資要他就寫一寫那麼就怎麼弄他就去處著那樣的貸款我們說有沒有去檢查他說有五年來你們有檢查"},{"start":384.387,"end":407.367,"text":"有沒有查出有失誤有錯誤的部分他說有確實有有幾件他說不能回答有沒有轉銀行局去懲處後續的懲處他也說不能回答當然都不能回答如何懲罰那也更不能回答"},{"start":408.751,"end":415.242,"text":"所以我們銀行有的這些呆帳我強烈質疑說那很多就是因為這種見價不實嘛"},{"start":418.425,"end":445.973,"text":"才導致到現在有那些呆帳不是這樣嗎我們局長在這邊可以請他簡單說明一下來 各位局長報告委員也就是說現在銀行的估價的部分依照那個銀行公會的這個壽性的準則它的估價是必須要依照這個擔保品它的這個當時的市值還有它的折舊率還有它的銷售性來進行估價我知道你們有好多那個準則我跟你講啦所有這一些"},{"start":448.12,"end":476.385,"text":"間駕不時的齁 裡面齁最大的共同的缺失都是說沒有去查訪 臨近的行情價格這個是最大 而且最莫名其妙的失誤欸 你就在這個地方 你臨近別人的行情是怎樣 行情都沒通過欸 臨近價格三五十萬的你這個要顧一百萬"},{"start":478.657,"end":501.696,"text":"這樣子的就我所知在你們檢查裡面所犯他們犯下的錯誤這種的最多啦那我現在問喔我說那你到底查了幾件你要讓我們知道你們這個也說不能知道這個就跟國防機密一樣就對了你們有沒有懲處也不能讓我們立法院知道"},{"start":503.271,"end":511.204,"text":"啊怎麼樣懲處那更不能那你們再來什麼時候幾年會再查一次啊也統統不能說是這樣子嗎"},{"start":513.559,"end":541.064,"text":"那這樣子就不需要立法院啦不需要我們常委會來監督你們不是嗎我們希望你們能夠全你們是很專業的幫我們全民去監控這些監控銀行包括證券期貨這些還有上市櫃公司我們是要你們這麼做以你們的專業嘛那你們總是要把這個查查的結果"},{"start":541.684,"end":558.886,"text":"告知 你沒辦法告知2300萬人民啊那你至少要告知我們國會啊讓我們國會知道如果說這是秘密資料那你也可以私下秘密給我看看不是這樣嗎為什麼不能給我看啊我覺得很奇怪是"},{"start":561.687,"end":587.816,"text":"包委員我去了解一下再跟您說明看看是到底是什麼問題如果只是一個比如說我們查查的概況我覺得這應該是可以跟委員說明的我還有第三個我要求說我們檢察局 營養局還有包括我們的政區局我們再來以後的這種查核要實質查核啦"},{"start":590.171,"end":616.896,"text":"實質查核才有意義嘛不能說只是隨便看看我們抽減幾樣大金額的實質你自己去查核看看這才能夠了解出到底是出了哪些問題我剛剛講的那個董事兼任來兼任去的這個不迴避利益衝突的40年前"},{"start":618.024,"end":647.196,"text":"那時候你我都還在讀書的時候發生了史上最大的金融案件時信案耶那就是這樣來的啊就是都疏於查核任由他們自己演自己唱結果損失的是我們數百萬人民當時數百萬的投資者他們辛苦的血汗錢耶所以那件事情你看餘波蕩漾的二三十年之久耶"},{"start":648.208,"end":660.121,"text":"好啦 後續我時間到了我希望後續你們打開這個心胸不要跟我回答說這個不能看 那個也不能看 那個也不能看那要立法院幹什麼"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:45.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.556000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請金管會彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.836000+08:00","text":"請金管會彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.856000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:46.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:24:49.498000+08:00","text":"彭主委，我今天的質詢跟我們今天討論的事項無關，因為我覺得這件事太離譜，所以我特別要在今天來問你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:24:49.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:25:54.847000+08:00","text":"就是前幾天發生的，國泰金控的董事長叫郭明鑑，他竟然去擔任多家公司的獨立董事，都是那些銀行金融單位，我認為在這兩、三年來，似乎我們金管單位對於這些銀行金控公司的董事去兼任其他銀行金控的董監事，幾乎是視若無睹，好像都沒在查，搞不好是知道，但認為這個沒關係，是這樣子嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:25:59.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:25.217000+08:00","text":"兼任，尤其是在金控銀行這麼重要的金融單位，兼任不但會有利益衝突，而且我認為很可能會監守自盜，所以這是很嚴重的問題，發生了以後，我也沒看到金管會對這件事表示憤怒、震驚、要去徹查，通通沒有。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:26.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:26:45.853000+08:00","text":"所以彭主委，過去這幾年來，到底金管會，第一點，新任的董事長、董事上任的時候，有沒有去查察他有否兼任？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:26:47.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:03.930000+08:00","text":"第二個，過去沒有經過查察的這些銀行金控的董事們、董事長、獨立董事，有沒有再去翻檢一次到底他們符不符合這一條要求？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:04.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:07.992000+08:00","text":"因為這已經嚴重涉及利益衝突。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:10.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:28.286000+08:00","text":"來自我們全體2,300萬人辛苦的血汗錢存到這些銀行、這些金控，今天全國存款的額度來到65兆，這都是我們全民辛苦得來的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:29.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:41.533000+08:00","text":"所以不管是公營、民營都不能有這種事情發生，很清楚地，他們這麼做的心態就是監守自盜。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:44.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:27:47.301000+08:00","text":"你有沒有關於這個部分的計畫、作為？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:27:47.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:31.159000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員讓我說明，我想有幾件事情再跟委員重申一下，第一個，委員問說所有的負責人上任的時候，因為不同業別會不一樣，假設是剛剛委員所講的銀行的話，他上任的時候就要符合我們的消極跟積極資格，積極資格是他的專業，消極資格是他的兼任有沒有不符合這個規定，他必須先做這個事情；再來，他的兼任，按照他們自己的內控還有我們所頒定的規定，上任時如有新兼或是改變，要去做申報，公司也要定期查核他們有沒有兼職。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:31.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:45.975000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到他們在投信的地方產生這個環節的落差，因為公司董事又兼投信的董事，就沒有再去申報他去投資另外一家公司，結果他買到這家公司的股票。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:46.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:47.236000+08:00","text":"這個部分沒有申報，你們怎麼處罰？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:47.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:47.356000+08:00","text":"這個影響很大耶！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:47.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:48.577000+08:00","text":"因為這樣是違反我們的內控內稽制度。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:56.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:28:57.857000+08:00","text":"對，那你們怎麼處罰？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:28:57.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:29:10.867000+08:00","text":"就按照我們的規定，不同的法律有不一樣的罰度，我想待會請銀行局長來說明，假設在銀行違反內控內稽的話，最多可以罰到多少錢，另外比如說……","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:29:11.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:29:12.047000+08:00","text":"你們去罰了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:29:14.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:29:16.913000+08:00","text":"要求他們去解職了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:29:16.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:29:32.805000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我們在知道這件事情之後，為了要釐清真相，找他來問了非常多次，而且我們也請他補充非常多資料，因為我們要釐清事實，才能夠給予精準的處罰，我們監理機關不能夠用臆測的方式去處罰他，所以過去大家就誤會我們……","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:29:38.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:30:05.091000+08:00","text":"釐清那個錯誤事實，我是講得很難聽，那種叫犯罪事實，釐清犯罪事實當然要時間，但是清查這個犯罪狀況、犯罪狀態的存在，其實很快啊，調資料出來，所有名冊去勾稽就知道了啊，這一件事情就是金管會疏於勾稽嘛！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:30:05.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:30:30.372000+08:00","text":"還有一項，比方銀行的鑑價，昨天我的助理問檢查局，這五年來檢查局針對銀行金控在授信的時候，對於財產擔保品的鑑價，有沒有去了解是否有評估不實的情形？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:30:30.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:30:54.745000+08:00","text":"因為評估不實有很多情況，有的是因為專業不足，可能是無知，但有的則是有心的，就有可能是被動、無知，要他寫一寫，然後怎麼弄就促成了那樣的貸款，我是問有沒有去檢查？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:30:55.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:02.711000+08:00","text":"檢查局說有，五年來有去檢查；如果有去檢查，那有沒有查出有失誤、錯誤的部分？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:03.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:06.054000+08:00","text":"他說有，確實有；有幾件？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:07.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:13.761000+08:00","text":"他說不能回答；有沒有轉銀行局進行後續懲處？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:13.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:15.042000+08:00","text":"他也說不能回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:16.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:21.347000+08:00","text":"當然，如果都不能回答，那如何懲罰就更不能回答囉！","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:22.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:37.446000+08:00","text":"所以銀行的這些呆帳，我強烈質疑有很多根本就是像這種鑑價不實，才導致有那一些呆帳，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:37.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:38.707000+08:00","text":"局長在這邊，可以請他簡單說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:40.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:41.688000+08:00","text":"來，請局長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"童局長政彰","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:41.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:31:55.752000+08:00","text":"報告委員，銀行估價是依照銀行公會的授信準則，估價時必須依照擔保品當時的市值、折舊率，還有它的銷售性來進行估價……","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:31:55.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:17.743000+08:00","text":"我知道你們有好多準則，但我跟你講，所有這些鑑價不實裡面最大的共同缺失，都是說沒有去查訪鄰近的行情價格，這個是最大而且是最莫名其妙的失誤！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:17.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:23.704000+08:00","text":"你就在這個地方，鄰近的、別人的行情怎麼樣，都沒有透明嗎？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:27.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:38.702000+08:00","text":"鄰近價格3、50萬的，你跟他估100萬，就我所知，在你們所有的檢查中，以這種犯下的錯誤最多。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:39.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:47.529000+08:00","text":"那我就問他，到底查了幾件要讓我們知道，結果他說這個也不能知道！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:48.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:50.672000+08:00","text":"就跟國防機密一樣就對了啊！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:52.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:32:53.434000+08:00","text":"有沒有懲處？欸！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:32:53.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:02.940000+08:00","text":"他說也不能讓我們立法院知道，怎麼懲處更不能；那你們是幾年會再查一次？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:03.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:05.004000+08:00","text":"也通通都不能說。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:05.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:05.204000+08:00","text":"是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:08.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:13.920000+08:00","text":"這樣子就不需要立法院，不需要我們財委會來監督你們，不是嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:13.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:50.683000+08:00","text":"我們希望你們很專業，可以幫全民監控這些金控銀行，包括證券、期貨，還有上市櫃公司，我們是要你們以你們的專業去做，但你們總要把查察的結果告知，你沒辦法告知2,300萬人民，但至少要告知國會，讓國會知道，如果說這是秘密資料，也可以私下秘密給我看看，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:50.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:51.704000+08:00","text":"為什麼不能給我看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:51.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:33:52.745000+08:00","text":"我覺得很奇怪！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:33:55.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:34:05.810000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我去了解一下，再跟你說明到底是什麼問題，如果只是我們查察的概況，應該是可以跟委員說明的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:34:07.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:34:42.074000+08:00","text":"還有第三個問題，我要求檢查局、銀行局，還有包括證期局，以後這種查核要實質查核，實質查核才有意義，不能只是隨便看看，抽檢幾樣大金額的，你們應該實質去查核看看，這樣才能了解到底出了哪些問題。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:34:42.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:35:22.989000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講的那個董事兼任來兼任去、不迴避利益衝突的問題，四十年前，那時候你、我都還在讀書的時候，發生了史上最大的金融案件──十信案，就是這樣來的，就是都疏於查核，任由他們自己演、自己唱，結果損失的是當時數百萬人民、投資者辛苦的血汗錢，那件事情餘波盪漾了二、三十年之久。好啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-01T11:35:23.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:35:34.121000+08:00","text":"我時間到了，希望後續你們打開心胸，不要跟我回答說這個不能看、那個也不能看，那要立法院幹什麼！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-01T11:35:34.621000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:35:36.049571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:35:36.349571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:35:38.635286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝王世堅委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（王委員世堅代）","start":"2026-07-01T11:35:38.935286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:35:41.792429+08:00","text":"現在請吳秉叡委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1175,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時24分）謝謝主席，我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請金管會彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，我今天的質詢跟我們今天討論的事項無關，因為我覺得這件事太離譜，所以我特別要在今天來問你。就是前幾天發生的，國泰金控的董事長叫郭明鑑，他竟然去擔任多家公司的獨立董事，都是那些銀行金融單位，我認為在這兩、三年來，似乎我們金管單位對於這些銀行金控公司的董事去兼任其他銀行金控的董監事，幾乎是視若無睹，好像都沒在查，搞不好是知道，但認為這個沒關係，是這樣子嗎？兼任，尤其是在金控銀行這麼重要的金融單位，兼任不但會有利益衝突，而且我認為很可能會監守自盜，所以這是很嚴重的問題，發生了以後，我也沒看到金管會對這件事表示憤怒、震驚、要去徹查，通通沒有。","所以彭主委，過去這幾年來，到底金管會，第一點，新任的董事長、董事上任的時候，有沒有去查察他有否兼任？第二個，過去沒有經過查察的這些銀行金控的董事們、董事長、獨立董事，有沒有再去翻檢一次到底他們符不符合這一條要求？因為這已經嚴重涉及利益衝突。來自我們全體2,300萬人辛苦的血汗錢存到這些銀行、這些金控，今天全國存款的額度來到65兆，這都是我們全民辛苦得來的。所以不管是公營、民營都不能有這種事情發生，很清楚地，他們這麼做的心態就是監守自盜。你有沒有關於這個部分的計畫、作為？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員讓我說明，我想有幾件事情再跟委員重申一下，第一個，委員問說所有的負責人上任的時候，因為不同業別會不一樣，假設是剛剛委員所講的銀行的話，他上任的時候就要符合我們的消極跟積極資格，積極資格是他的專業，消極資格是他的兼任有沒有不符合這個規定，他必須先做這個事情；再來，他的兼任，按照他們自己的內控還有我們所頒定的規定，上任時如有新兼或是改變，要去做申報，公司也要定期查核他們有沒有兼職。剛剛委員提到他們在投信的地方產生這個環節的落差，因為公司董事又兼投信的董事，就沒有再去申報他去投資另外一家公司，結果他買到這家公司的股票。"],["王委員世堅：這個部分沒有申報，你們怎麼處罰？這個影響很大耶！"],["彭主任委員金隆：因為這樣是違反我們的內控內稽制度。"],["王委員世堅：對，那你們怎麼處罰？"],["彭主任委員金隆：就按照我們的規定，不同的法律有不一樣的罰度，我想待會請銀行局長來說明，假設在銀行違反內控內稽的話，最多可以罰到多少錢，另外比如說……"],["王委員世堅：你們去罰了嗎？要求他們去解職了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員，我們在知道這件事情之後，為了要釐清真相，找他來問了非常多次，而且我們也請他補充非常多資料，因為我們要釐清事實，才能夠給予精準的處罰，我們監理機關不能夠用臆測的方式去處罰他，所以過去大家就誤會我們……"],["王委員世堅：釐清那個錯誤事實，我是講得很難聽，那種叫犯罪事實，釐清犯罪事實當然要時間，但是清查這個犯罪狀況、犯罪狀態的存在，其實很快啊，調資料出來，所有名冊去勾稽就知道了啊，這一件事情就是金管會疏於勾稽嘛！還有一項，比方銀行的鑑價，昨天我的助理問檢查局，這五年來檢查局針對銀行金控在授信的時候，對於財產擔保品的鑑價，有沒有去了解是否有評估不實的情形？因為評估不實有很多情況，有的是因為專業不足，可能是無知，但有的則是有心的，就有可能是被動、無知，要他寫一寫，然後怎麼弄就促成了那樣的貸款，我是問有沒有去檢查？檢查局說有，五年來有去檢查；如果有去檢查，那有沒有查出有失誤、錯誤的部分？他說有，確實有；有幾件？他說不能回答；有沒有轉銀行局進行後續懲處？他也說不能回答。當然，如果都不能回答，那如何懲罰就更不能回答囉！所以銀行的這些呆帳，我強烈質疑有很多根本就是像這種鑑價不實，才導致有那一些呆帳，不是這樣嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：局長在這邊，可以請他簡單說明。"],["王委員世堅：來，請局長。"],["童局長政彰：報告委員，銀行估價是依照銀行公會的授信準則，估價時必須依照擔保品當時的市值、折舊率，還有它的銷售性來進行估價……"],["王委員世堅：我知道你們有好多準則，但我跟你講，所有這些鑑價不實裡面最大的共同缺失，都是說沒有去查訪鄰近的行情價格，這個是最大而且是最莫名其妙的失誤！你就在這個地方，鄰近的、別人的行情怎麼樣，都沒有透明嗎？鄰近價格3、50萬的，你跟他估100萬，就我所知，在你們所有的檢查中，以這種犯下的錯誤最多。那我就問他，到底查了幾件要讓我們知道，結果他說這個也不能知道！就跟國防機密一樣就對了啊！有沒有懲處？欸！他說也不能讓我們立法院知道，怎麼懲處更不能；那你們是幾年會再查一次？也通通都不能說。是這樣子嗎？這樣子就不需要立法院，不需要我們財委會來監督你們，不是嗎？我們希望你們很專業，可以幫全民監控這些金控銀行，包括證券、期貨，還有上市櫃公司，我們是要你們以你們的專業去做，但你們總要把查察的結果告知，你沒辦法告知2,300萬人民，但至少要告知國會，讓國會知道，如果說這是秘密資料，也可以私下秘密給我看看，不是這樣嗎？為什麼不能給我看？我覺得很奇怪！"],["彭主任委員金隆：報告委員，我去了解一下，再跟你說明到底是什麼問題，如果只是我們查察的概況，應該是可以跟委員說明的。"],["王委員世堅：還有第三個問題，我要求檢查局、銀行局，還有包括證期局，以後這種查核要實質查核，實質查核才有意義，不能只是隨便看看，抽檢幾樣大金額的，你們應該實質去查核看看，這樣才能了解到底出了哪些問題。我剛剛講的那個董事兼任來兼任去、不迴避利益衝突的問題，四十年前，那時候你、我都還在讀書的時候，發生了史上最大的金融案件──十信案，就是這樣來的，就是都疏於查核，任由他們自己演、自己唱，結果損失的是當時數百萬人民、投資者辛苦的血汗錢，那件事情餘波盪漾了二、三十年之久。好啦！我時間到了，希望後續你們打開心胸，不要跟我回答說這個不能看、那個也不能看，那要立法院幹什麼！"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝王世堅委員。"],["主席（王委員世堅代）：現在請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":556,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-20","speakers":["吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","賴惠員","李彥秀","顏寬恒","羅明才","陳玉珍","王世堅","李坤城","林楚茵","許忠信","楊瓊瓔","林思銘"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155602","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155602_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第20次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、彙總整理提出「中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告（公務預算部分）草案」提\n報院會案；二、彙總整理提出「中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業\n部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案；三、審查本院委員吳秉叡等20人擬具「會計師法部分條文修\n正草案」案；四、審查本院委員吳秉叡等21人、委員李彥秀等18人分別擬具「證券交易稅條例第\n二條之一條文修正草案」等2案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155602_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}