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我繼續來問我不曉得郭方威在在擔心什麼不知道你在擔心什麼暗示住民主啊那是蘇喬存啊擔任董事兼營運廠的公司我要資料的這家公司那蘇喬存是誰我想聽過媒體啊"},{"start":233.206,"end":257.99,"text":"大家都知道的 蘇曹存就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒他的姊姊就是蘇曹惠委員然後2022年蘇貞昌是擔任我們的行政院長負責管轄國發基金蘇曹惠是立法委員負責監督我們的國發基金就這麼剛剛好 礦石智能公司他就"},{"start":261.411,"end":285.837,"text":"拿到了我們國發基金一千九百九十九萬九千元的投資連年都不用年了直接國發基金就給他投資了完全不是以利益迴避這真的是國庫康通書庫國家的就是輸家的"},{"start":286.977,"end":292.425,"text":"所以我在這裡我針對我們國防基金國防費自己也都要說你們沒有針對個人家族或背景對象提供所謂的差別戰略"},{"start":304.881,"end":309.285,"text":"但是我們按照國外基金川北電子投資作業要點初次的投資不等於超過兩千萬那跨市智能公司就這麼剛好"},{"start":321.215,"end":332.757,"text":"我們的投資啊 審議委員會啊剛剛主委有講我們的外部委員真的就很厲害就剛好給他投資了1999萬9千元所以我在這裡我要問的我們國防衛國外基金我們假如單就一個投資的效益來講請問你們為什麼"},{"start":349.082,"end":369.947,"text":"所以投資只有一個唯一收入來源這個唯一收入來源我這邊有講就是為鼓勵的一個平臺何況這個平臺在我們投資之前它就有收入詐騙那我就請問我們國外基金國防會"},{"start":371.047,"end":374.709,"text":"我們的投資評估選議會會怎麼選的就是這麼厲害剛好投資了我跟委員報告我們今天討論機制我們討論機制不是討論個案我覺得個案不是以在這邊做討論"},{"start":386.877,"end":390.481,"text":"我絕對從個案看你們的通案從個案看你們的通案不是很合適在這邊討論這個個案已經公開了啊這裡媒體啊"},{"start":401.974,"end":405.396,"text":"媒體啊公開啊問你們個案你們有發布新聞稿做說明啊所以這是一個公開的訊息啊委員就公開的訊息在委員會提出知情為什麼主委你還是準備所謂個案從個案看你們的同案"},{"start":423.746,"end":436.615,"text":"委員我這邊跟你分享一下就是說這一個個案已經到監察院了所以我想我們就是尊重監察院尊重監察院我今天承認你嘛委員的承認我要來承認你喔好啊這個也是機制啊我今天跟你談論就是從個案看到機制出了問題啦就是機制有問題啊你看蘇曉慧"},{"start":450.445,"end":470.576,"text":"他跟礦石之南的董事兼營運長按照公職人員你的衝突未必吧他應該要結論他跟蘇貞昌院長跟蘇巧慧委員的關係嘛那請問礦石之南在申請我們的投資之前他有"},{"start":471.836,"end":497.294,"text":"這個有意義啦來揭露這樣的資訊嗎國發基金對於所有的投資案所秉持的方式都一樣依法行政牽扯到所謂的各支法第十四條裡面投資這個這個他要申請投資依照立法他要揭露他要揭露這個叫做各支案本來規定要指揭露"},{"start":501.757,"end":513.847,"text":"本來就整天要揭露 你現在一直用個資法你可以回去看一下個資法第14條這個是立中法 國會一定要揭露的我跟妳講 我們的一個 立議總統迴避法用揭露的一個部分你不要跟我講個資法再來我們來看"},{"start":524.915,"end":528.839,"text":"我剛剛有聽我們的一個質詢然後國會主委剛剛好像有跟我們會員也提到我們公職人員的利衝法利益衝突會逼只有在交易或是補助"},{"start":548.497,"end":561.231,"text":"這一個範圍那你剛剛好像打說投資啊不在立法的一個規範範圍是不是確定你剛剛的文字委員的那個簡報上面就是看不到投資兩個字啊"},{"start":563.033,"end":568.457,"text":"你看不到投資兩個字我現在就拿你的專案報告啊我這個報告是你寫的喔你寫的啊受你申請投資案建議受你申請投資案建議公職人員利益衝突的地方不一定代理對呀投資兩個字有嘛沒有沒有沒有沒有你的報告還有你的新聞卡"},{"start":593.073,"end":600.235,"text":"依法皆容我們要依啊 立重法的規定啊修理申請推遲案要依立重法的規定辦理你等下報告你等下報告你自己跟你的報告自己去解釋那我在這裡就跟主委講 來"},{"start":614.938,"end":623.962,"text":"交易、補助都算,投資就不算,投資就不算,那是不是我們在立籌碼?整個都要修法了,要把投資加進去啊,這符合我們一般的概念嗎?我給你補助,要立籌碼,我給你交易,我要立籌碼,結果我給你投資,用人民、納稅人的錢給你"},{"start":638.909,"end":654.723,"text":"投資不用免幣 不用利用嘛這就是我們國防會諸位自己親口在立法院的執行就沒打了這個部分我們形成一致我們國防院立法行政我們立法行政要在這裡 我們民政署在這裡嘛我們法部要派人嘛 法部"},{"start":665.359,"end":677.352,"text":"你們就是立中門的主管機關讓我在這裡問你投資啊投資啊是不是我們公職人員利益中途的立法這裡適用安危大家適用"},{"start":682.162,"end":688.488,"text":"國家的資金基金投資給個人或投資給民間要不要立衝法的一個過關範圍確實投資這兩個字沒有在立衝法第14條裡面的文字上面顯示出來"},{"start":700.936,"end":712.902,"text":"所以文字沒有,那你就為這個機關怎麼解釋?那如果要解釋的話,那我們必須有個案的狀況...個案就在這裡啊!官方主委一起講,所以我談的就是個案啊!那這個個案咧?因為如果個案的話,這個案子法務部...總值一千九百九十九萬九千元!"},{"start":724.569,"end":751.811,"text":"對 這個案子不是法務部的主管機關啊不是法務部的主管機關我現在問你是一充打勒有沒有規範投資 你說文字沒有嗎那就整個陽光 剛剛我們許仲勳為人了陽光是最好的防護劑那從此要不要算 英明法務部的觀點你也有話要回答嗎可能我們要逼到文藝上面來解釋啦"},{"start":753.137,"end":777.287,"text":"所以我們今天就要上廢文解誌就一定要有投資的資源就法務部的觀點對不對好法務部的偉大我知道那我們一定會提修法我一定會提修法我們台灣中港港版一定會提修法我就把投資加進去讓你有文字可以看"},{"start":780.35,"end":783.153,"text":"好 請回座謝謝委員請回座我想我們在當中執行到現在我們大家也都看得到了"},{"start":793.158,"end":810.97,"text":"國防基金用剛好第一攤的一個限制兩千萬以下的一千九百九十九萬九千元來投資一家只有唯一收入來源的一個公司何況這家公司還收入詐騙那卓院長他說投資新創協助投資台灣的國家未來"},{"start":823.16,"end":838.314,"text":"我們看到國安基金、國安會也幫這個案子在做我們的新聞發布新聞的一個說明那我想這到底是陳武卓院長所講的投資國家的未來還是投資"},{"start":843.659,"end":868.378,"text":"有關啊 理由有 輸家的有未來我想經過這樣的一個執行我們全台灣的人民心中應該有一把尺那再來我想說剛剛談的是國發基金有一個部分那經濟部經濟部也有我請經濟部部長好不好主席我請經濟部部長請經濟部工部長"},{"start":875.333,"end":876.253,"text":"我想我們當然想要用國大基金來補助蘇嘉那其實經濟部也有經濟部在2024年到2025年間蘇嘉純他擔任威魯克基旗下這個阿卡索瓦特這個執行長那時候我們看到"},{"start":905.939,"end":910.202,"text":"蘇曉慧還是立委,她負責監督我們的經濟部結果我們蘇曉淳的這家微乳科技還是拿到了我們經濟部的補助分別是中信署補助他的160人"},{"start":925.109,"end":926.43,"text":"4萬6千元跟商務發足的120萬那這樣的一個補助我們也看到我們經濟部我們有一直在解釋說蘇小琼跟威如科技沒有關係但威如科技的結案報告我在簡報上有講"},{"start":949.873,"end":951.955,"text":"他自己說,為了過去啊,就是過去營運啊,這個一個所謂的一個營運者,那蘇小純喔,自己本人喔,那接受我們自己經濟部喔,商發署的訪談喔,自己也說啊,他是"},{"start":971.33,"end":974.733,"text":"這個溫柔科技是作為阿卡舒瓦的一個營業者那在這樣的一個過程我們在拿補助的時候都說兩者的關係然後現在我們在質疑"},{"start":991.665,"end":998.17,"text":"我們就來跳脫說兩者之間的沒有關係那我在這邊我也來請教這個經濟部溫暖科技"},{"start":1005.973,"end":1021.764,"text":"威武科技在申請上面的計畫我剛剛講了他兩個計畫的時候他有沒有提供這個公司人員我們這個跟關係的一個身份介入表"},{"start":1022.344,"end":1034.316,"text":"因為報告委員蘇曉筍並不是威如科技的負責人 也不是董事 也不是獨立監察人 也不是經理人 他什麼都不是這一個部分 我們的結構表裡面 剛剛部長有講的嘛 負責人"},{"start":1044.466,"end":1055.929,"text":"對 董事 主席董事 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 監察人 �"},{"start":1073.036,"end":1081.803,"text":"我們規範的對價是微乳公司你規範微乳嘛立法法的規定就是這樣就跟國會主委講的一樣那我在這邊我還是請教我們的法務部法務部請你再一次的回答"},{"start":1097.512,"end":1110.896,"text":"剛剛講你從要揭露這個一個部分我們不想講揭露的範圍就是公司的負責人、董事、主力董事監察人、經理人那我在這邊請教執行長會不會也是要規範的對象你們看嘛"},{"start":1116.761,"end":1137.394,"text":"是兩個獨立的主體,我們規範...我今天不講主體,純粹就是力求碼的揭露要點,如果今天不是務責人,不是總事,不是監察人,不是經理人,他就是執行長這個時候,是不是我們的力求碼揭露的對象,要揭露的對象,我們規範,有理由"},{"start":1141.68,"end":1147.091,"text":"所以以後就不用執行長就好了我今天不是跟你講微乳公司嗎我現在在跟你講"},{"start":1150.95,"end":1178.673,"text":"那個揭露的一個犯規就像我犯規嘛這是就法的觀念來論點啊我今天不跟你講公安跟你講法是跟委員報告如果是董事監察人跟經理人或相類似的職務的話他是應該揭露相類似的職務嘛那執行長應該就是相類似的職務吧如果他的執行長是他那個公司是有來申請補助的那可能就是要揭露"},{"start":1179.153,"end":1185.38,"text":"那可能再接一段,好,好,否不正的答案,我接受,好,請回座"},{"start":1187.062,"end":1208.555,"text":"我今天在談的不是你要講談的是兩個獨立個體但是這兩個獨立個體明明在我們剛剛的說明當中它就是有關係的而且有緊密的關係兩個合作其實是一體的那今天我們至少點出我們的揭露應該有相關的一個這個組成這樣的一個人"},{"start":1216.159,"end":1227.867,"text":"這應該要做結論來 下一個同樣的是我們經濟部我還是回到所知因為我們所知真的商業還沒到這裡同樣都是跟我們經濟部一樣的資料來 部長你看我們商業發展署給我的資料是完整的"},{"start":1245.666,"end":1266.942,"text":"完整的中小企業中小級新創企業署他給我的資料全部塗黑同樣的經濟部同樣問的問題都是微乳科技他申請了這個演化計畫或申請專心的計畫"},{"start":1269.363,"end":1275.39,"text":"同樣的手持 兩個單位來的完全不一樣 剖地裡面的喇叩怎麼會這樣啊"},{"start":1281.189,"end":1306.08,"text":"這個應該是中小中小及新中介所要說明啊為什麼全部土的啊你給我的說是全部土的跟委員報告我們給委員的資料除了一些可能他的學經歷然後還有他過去的經歷等等事項所以重點都是機密全部都是土的所以都沒有去識別的提供了"},{"start":1307.04,"end":1329.29,"text":"所以你就塗黑,那從這個表格你就看到了我在這邊我肯定我們的三大署該提供的資料,真的就完全提供我給你肯定,你們給你肯定,我要跟部長講這個是要肯定,常常在檢討我們的中小期、新創期業數"},{"start":1331.411,"end":1359.13,"text":"同樣的結案報告同樣的結案報告竟然一個部裡面兩個數一個全部揭露公開一個全部除黑好這個就是要讓我們所有的國人來看經濟部就這樣的一個隱瞞隱瞞執行就是這樣的一個作為好我最後還是要問"},{"start":1360.646,"end":1389.413,"text":"我辦公室有所知的資料還要等多久維族科技的部分委員我先跟您說明一下您要的這些計畫書其中期末報告我們都給了但是其中期末報告的附件給的附件啊 重要的資料都沒給啊要跟委員講就是說這些附件可能涉及到一些研發一些機密所以我們可能 附件通通機密今天我自始自終有聽到科技法機密所以今天不用給"},{"start":1391.233,"end":1403.798,"text":"不是 委員 我們會再審視一下比較沒有適合的部分所以可以給的就給 不可以給的我通通塗黑 就是這樣嘛好 就算你要塗黑 哪有說要給我們現在那個資料我已經講 就算你要全部塗黑 哪有說要給"},{"start":1415.553,"end":1435.05,"text":"這個你塗黑吧我繼續讓全國人民知道你們給的資料都是塗黑好我OK那時候可以再兩個禮拜好不好還要兩個禮拜全部塗黑全部塗黑還要兩個禮拜那兩個禮拜就是要完整的資料給我不塗黑沒有涉及機密我們當然一定都會給"},{"start":1438.98,"end":1445.646,"text":"我們不涉及營業機密我們要的是他的一個補助案還有他的一個結案報告就這樣而已這個叫做營業機密都跟你要錢了你都補助給他了"},{"start":1460.36,"end":1477.836,"text":"現在用他的治安報告,有確診是一頁機密,一共三個人民聽下去我們審查本來就是公開、公平啊我沒有說你們不公開啊對啊,所以我們就是依法行政啊好,一個禮拜給,好不好盡快啦,我們盡快還是盡快,保證啊,換給一個人所知啊"},{"start":1489.582,"end":1489.602,"text":"好,謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:22.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:37:22.770000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:23.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:37:23.511000+08:00","text":"請國發會主委。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:23.511000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:37:29.490333+08:00","text":"請國發會葉主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:29.490333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:37:35.469667+08:00","text":"腳受傷了，坐著就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:35.469667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:37:41.449000+08:00","text":"謝謝、謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:37:41.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:38:16.590000+08:00","text":"今天我們的專案報告最主要是針對國發會的國發基金，剛剛王委員也提到這份專案報告真的就這麼一頁，謝謝國發會的用心，一頁就可以來做專案報告。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:38:17.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:38:51.538000+08:00","text":"在進入主題之前，我要先詢問一下，我的辦公室在5月26號發函給國發會，希望能夠提供曠世智能公司的相關資料，我的國會辦公室公文也檢附在上面。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:38:52.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:08.689000+08:00","text":"但是到目前為止，526到今天已經7月1號了，國發會對這個索資不給就是不給，請問一下，這個案子為什麼不給？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:08.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:12.050000+08:00","text":"是不是曠世智能公司涉及到的資料有關蘇貞昌前院長、我們的委員蘇巧慧，所以國發會能拖就拖、能延就延？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:12.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:28.118000+08:00","text":"哪時候可以給？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:28.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:32.600000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們不會只針對個案，我們所有的案子都是這樣子。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:34+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:36.281000+08:00","text":"就是索資一個多月了還是不給？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:36.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:37.162000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有，委員，你聽我說，有一些索資牽扯到個資及牽扯到……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:37.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:37.942000+08:00","text":"我只是要曠世智能的申請投資資料，有什麼個資？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:37.942000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:53.650000+08:00","text":"有什麼機密？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:53.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:56.835000+08:00","text":"這部分的話，公務人員依法行政，我不希望同仁違反一些規定，比如說像個資法……不能違反。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:56.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:57.835000+08:00","text":"我知道不給就不給。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:56.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:39:57.216000+08:00","text":"好，不違反規定，哪時候可以給？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:39:57.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:07.589000+08:00","text":"已經過了一個多月了，哪時候可以給？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:07.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:09.029000+08:00","text":"要不要給？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:09.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:10.370000+08:00","text":"還是不要給？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:10.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:11.470000+08:00","text":"你在這邊講清楚！不是！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:11.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:14.172000+08:00","text":"有牽扯到個資法，有牽扯到……","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:14.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:15.753000+08:00","text":"牽扯了一個多月！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:16.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:20.055000+08:00","text":"那你就回來說：「牽扯到個資法，我就是不給」。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:20.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:20.855000+08:00","text":"要不要給啊？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:20.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:21.015000+08:00","text":"一個答案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:21.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:21.876000+08:00","text":"我們能夠給的都已經給了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:25.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:26.077000+08:00","text":"所以就是不給？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:26.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:27.938000+08:00","text":"你今天的答案就是不給？不是！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:27.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:28.758000+08:00","text":"那是不能給，那牽扯到個資的問題，我怎麼……","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:28.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:29.758000+08:00","text":"我要的曠世智能的東西不給？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:29.758000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:30.758000+08:00","text":"那是牽扯到個資跟營業機密，我們不能給啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:30.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:31.019000+08:00","text":"好，牽扯到個資不給，這就是今天的答案。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:31.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:32.179000+08:00","text":"我不跟你扯了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:32.179000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:33.179000+08:00","text":"確定不給？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:32.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:33.839000+08:00","text":"牽扯到個資跟營業機密，我們不能給，這個是讓同仁去違法！好啦！","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:33.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:34.799000+08:00","text":"一個籌資方案就叫做機密啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:45.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:45.963000+08:00","text":"所以就是不給！好！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:45.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:46.963000+08:00","text":"這個不是籌資方案的機密。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:46.963000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:47.963000+08:00","text":"委員，我們在這邊很理性地在討論問題啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:46.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:46.463000+08:00","text":"好，我繼續來問。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:46.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:50.286000+08:00","text":"我不曉得國發會在擔心什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:50.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:50.786000+08:00","text":"不知道你在擔心什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:50.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:52.417500+08:00","text":"我們在這邊很理性地跟委員在討論問題，我們不能讓我們的同仁違法啦！","quality":0.033},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:52.417500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:54.049000+08:00","text":"讓委員質詢好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:54.049000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:55.050000+08:00","text":"我要資料的這家公司，曠世智能公司，是蘇巧純擔任董事兼營運長的公司。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:55.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:40:55.410000+08:00","text":"蘇巧純是誰？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:40:55.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:41:15.866000+08:00","text":"我想經過媒體報導，大家都知道了。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:41:17.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:41:25.288000+08:00","text":"蘇巧純就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒，他的姐姐就是蘇巧慧委員。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:41:26.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:41:37.070000+08:00","text":"2022年蘇貞昌擔任行政院長，負責管理國發基金；蘇巧慧是立法委員，負責監督國發基金。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:41:37.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:41:59.155000+08:00","text":"而且這麼剛剛好，曠世智能公司就拿到了國發基金1,999萬9,000元的投資，連演都不用演，國發基金直接就給它投資了，完全無視於利益迴避。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:00.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:42:05.536000+08:00","text":"這真的是「國庫通蘇庫！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:05.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:42:07.817000+08:00","text":"國家的就是蘇家的！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:09.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:42:14.164000+08:00","text":"國發會自己也對外說你們沒有針對個人、家族或背景對象提供所謂的差別待遇。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:26.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:42:31.265000+08:00","text":"但是按照國發基金創業天使投資作業要點來看，初次的投資不得超過2,000萬元，而曠世智能公司就這麼剛好！","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:44.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:42:51.457000+08:00","text":"投資審議委員會……剛剛主委有講，外部委員真的就很厲害，就剛好給它投資了1,999萬9,000元。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:42:51.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:14.543000+08:00","text":"所以在這裡我要問，國發會國發基金以贊助投資的效益來講，請問你們為什麼會投資一個只有唯一收入來源的公司？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:16.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:33.367000+08:00","text":"這個唯一收入來源，我這邊有講，就是一個「微股力」的平台，何況這個平台在我們投資之前，他就有涉入詐騙，我請問國發基金、國發會，投資評估審議委員會怎麼審的？","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:33.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:33.848000+08:00","text":"就是這麼厲害，剛好投資了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:33.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:36.709000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們今天討論機制，不是討論個案，我覺得個案不適宜在這邊做討論。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:48.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:49.838000+08:00","text":"我絕對是從個案看你們的通案。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:49.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:43:51.981000+08:00","text":"我可以回應委員……但是我覺得這個個案不是很合適在這邊討論。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:43:51.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:05.995000+08:00","text":"這個個案已經公開了，媒體也公開了，你們也發布新聞稿說明，所以這是一個公開的訊息啊！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:06.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:07.136000+08:00","text":"委員就公開的訊息在委員會提出質詢，為什麼主委還是認為這是針對個案？","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:07.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:07.376000+08:00","text":"我是從個案看你們的通案。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:25.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:33.712000+08:00","text":"委員，我這邊跟你分享一下，就是這個個案已經到監察院了，所以我想我們就是尊重監察院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:33.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:34.612000+08:00","text":"你尊重監察院？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:34.612000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:35.612000+08:00","text":"對，但是我……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:34.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:36.234000+08:00","text":"我今天執行立法委員的職責，我要來質詢你……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:36.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:37.234000+08:00","text":"但是今天我們討論機制，而不是討論個案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:37.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:38.234000+08:00","text":"這是個案問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:36.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:36.594000+08:00","text":"這個也是機制啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:36.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:37.615000+08:00","text":"我今天跟你談的，就是從個案看機制看出了問題啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:37.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:44:38.055000+08:00","text":"這是機制的問題啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:44:38.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:05.692000+08:00","text":"你看蘇巧純擔任曠世智能的董事兼營運長，按照公職人員利益衝突迴避法，他應該要揭露他跟蘇貞昌院長、跟蘇巧慧委員的關係。","quality":0.717},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:07.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:18.960000+08:00","text":"請問曠世智能在申請投資之前，有依法揭露這樣的資訊嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:18.960000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:19.960000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:18.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:25.384000+08:00","text":"國發基金對於所有投資案所秉持的方式都一樣，依法行政。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:25.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:26.384000+08:00","text":"依法行政？","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:26.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:31.589000+08:00","text":"牽扯到所謂的個資法第十四條裡面，投資這個不在一般的……所以我們認為其實就不適用。","quality":0.472},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:31.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:37.753000+08:00","text":"他要申請投資，依照利衝法，他要揭露，這個叫做個資法？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:43.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:46.920000+08:00","text":"主委，本來就規定要揭露，你現在一直用個資法！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:47.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:49.962000+08:00","text":"委員，你可以回去看一下個資法第十四條……謝謝！","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:49.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:52.104000+08:00","text":"好，這個是依照規定要揭露的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:52.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:45:54.626000+08:00","text":"我是在跟你講利益衝突迴避法應揭露的部分，你不要跟我講個資法。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:45:55.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:38.246000+08:00","text":"再來，國發會主委剛剛好像有跟洪委員提到，公職人員的利益衝突迴避法只針對交易或是補助的範圍，你剛剛好像回答說投資不在利衝法的規範範圍，是不是確定？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:38.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:39.287000+08:00","text":"你剛剛的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:40.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:43.211000+08:00","text":"委員的簡報上面就看不到「投資」兩個字啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.513000+08:00","text":"你看不到「投資」兩個字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.734000+08:00","text":"我現在就拿你的專案報告啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.974000+08:00","text":"這個報告是你寫的哦！好啊！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:46.974000+08:00","text":"那就解釋啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:46.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:47.974000+08:00","text":"那個也是在利衝法第十四條……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:45.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:47.595000+08:00","text":"受理申請投資案，皆依公職人員利益衝突迴避法規定辦理。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:47.595000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:48.595000+08:00","text":"委員，第十四條上面也是這樣子寫的。對啊！","quality":0.118},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:48.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:48.275000+08:00","text":"有「投資」兩個字嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:48.275000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:49.275000+08:00","text":"你有看到「投資」嗎？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:49.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:46:49.296000+08:00","text":"沒有，利衝法第十四條沒有看到……","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:46:49.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:20.254000+08:00","text":"你的報告還有你的新聞稿都有提到：依法揭露……受理申請投資案，要依利衝法的規定辦理。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:20.254000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.254000+08:00","text":"利衝法第十四條裡面沒有列入「投資」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:20.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.214000+08:00","text":"這是你自己的報告！","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.214000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:22.214000+08:00","text":"對，但是利衝法第十四條裡面就是沒有投資啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.975000+08:00","text":"你的報告，你自己去解釋。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:21.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:43.621000+08:00","text":"那我在這裡就跟主委講，交易、補助都算，投資就不算，那是不是代表利衝法真的需要修法了？","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:43.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:43.861000+08:00","text":"要把投資加進去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:43.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:47:44.822000+08:00","text":"這符合我們一般的概念嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:47:44.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:03.491000+08:00","text":"我給你補助，要利衝法；我給你交易，我要利衝法；結果我給你投資，用人民的納稅錢給你投資，不用迴避，不用利衝法。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:04.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:11.759000+08:00","text":"這就是我們國發會主委自己親口在立法院的質詢所回答的，這個部分我們形成文字。沒有！沒有！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:12.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:13.580000+08:00","text":"委員，我們國發基金依法行政，我們一直以來都依法行政。","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:13.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:14.580000+08:00","text":"我就知道你依法行政啦！","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"葉主任委員俊顯","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:14.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:15.580000+08:00","text":"依法行政，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:14.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:15.122000+08:00","text":"好，廉政署在這裡嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:15.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:16.002000+08:00","text":"法務部有派員吧？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:16.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:17.002000+08:00","text":"請廉政署。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:16.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:38.612000+08:00","text":"法務部，你們是利衝法的主管機關，那我在這裡問你，投資是不是公職人員利益衝突迴避法的適用範圍？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:39.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:39.332000+08:00","text":"要不要適用？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:39.332000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:44.162000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，投資……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:44.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:46.264000+08:00","text":"國家的基金投資給個人或投資給民間，在不在利衝法的規範範圍？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:48:46.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:48:50.488000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，確實「投資」這兩個字沒有在利衝法第十四條裡面的文字上面顯示出來。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:02.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:03.736000+08:00","text":"所以文字沒有？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:04.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:07.158000+08:00","text":"那你作為主管機關怎麼解釋？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:07.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:10.140000+08:00","text":"如果要解釋的話，那我們必須有一個個案的狀況。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:10.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:10.860000+08:00","text":"個案就在這裡啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:11.080000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:12.401000+08:00","text":"剛剛主委一直講說我談的就是個案啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:12.401000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:13.401000+08:00","text":"這個地方不方便來做評論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:12.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:12.741000+08:00","text":"這個個案呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:12.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:13.322000+08:00","text":"因為如果是個案的話，這個案子法務部不是管轄機關。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:14.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:14.882000+08:00","text":"投資1,999萬9,000元！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:26.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:28.331000+08:00","text":"對，這個案子法務部不是主管機關。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:29.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:31.173000+08:00","text":"法務部不是主管機關？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:31.173000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:32.173000+08:00","text":"對，是監察院。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:31.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:35.837000+08:00","text":"我現在問你的是利衝法有沒有規範投資？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:35.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:36.878000+08:00","text":"你說文字沒有嘛！是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:38.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:47.326000+08:00","text":"那就整個陽光……剛剛許忠信委員說陽光是最好的防腐劑，所以投資要不要算？","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:48.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:51.730000+08:00","text":"依你法務部的觀點，你有辦法回答嗎？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:51.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:49:53.791000+08:00","text":"可能我們要依照文義上面來解釋。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:49:55.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:00.819000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天就要上說文解字，就一定要有投資的字眼？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:01.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:03.700000+08:00","text":"就法務部的觀點，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:03.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:14.745000+08:00","text":"好，法務部的回答我知道，那我們一定會提修法，我一定會提修法，我們台灣民眾黨黨團一定會提修法。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:15.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:19.267000+08:00","text":"我就把投資加進去，讓你有文字可以看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:22.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:23.451000+08:00","text":"好，請回座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:23.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:23.491000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:23.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:52.310000+08:00","text":"我想我們剛剛的質詢到現在，大家也都看到了，國發基金用剛好低於限制2,000萬元以下的1,999萬9,000元，投資一家只有唯一收入來源的公司，何況這家公司還涉入詐騙。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:50:52.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:50:52.970000+08:00","text":"卓院長說，投資新創就是投資臺灣的國家未來。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:05.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:15.430000+08:00","text":"我們看到國發基金、國發會也幫這個案子做新聞發布、新聞說明。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:17.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:29.322000+08:00","text":"這到底是誠如卓院長所講的投資國家的未來，還是投資有關綠友友蘇家的未來？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:29.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:35.847000+08:00","text":"我想經過這樣的質詢，我們全臺灣的人民心中應該有一把尺。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:38.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:45.914000+08:00","text":"再來，我剛剛談的是國發基金的一個部分，經濟部也有。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:48.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:50.198000+08:00","text":"主席，我請經濟部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:50.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:50.198000+08:00","text":"請經濟部龔部長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:50.198000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:51.198000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:50.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:51:57.713000+08:00","text":"部長，我們剛剛談到用國發基金補助蘇家，其實經濟部也有。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:51:57.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:52:47.410000+08:00","text":"經濟部在2024年到2025年間，蘇巧純擔任威如科技旗下akaSwap的執行長，那時候蘇巧慧還是立委，他負責監督經濟部，結果蘇巧純的威如科技還是拿到經濟部的補助，分別是由中企署補助了164萬6,000元，以及商發署的120萬元。","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:52:47.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:52:48.030000+08:00","text":"這樣的補助，我們也看到經濟部一直在解釋說蘇巧純跟威如科技沒有關係。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:52:48.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:53:12.494000+08:00","text":"但我在簡報上有講，在威如科技的結案報告中，他自己說威如科技是akaSwap的營運者。","quality":0.487},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:53:12.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:53:34.731000+08:00","text":"蘇巧純本人接受經濟部商發署的訪談時，自己也說威如科技是akaSwap的營運者。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:53:36.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:53:58.789000+08:00","text":"拿補助的時候都說兩者有關係，然而現在因為我們在質疑，所以就跳脫說兩者之間沒有關係。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:53:59.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:23.744000+08:00","text":"我請教經濟部，威如科技在申請我剛剛講的那兩個計畫的時候，他有沒有提供公職人員跟關係人的身分揭露表？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:23.744000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:24.744000+08:00","text":"有沒有提供？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:24.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:33.514000+08:00","text":"報告委員，蘇巧純並不是威如科技的負責人，也不是董事，也不是獨立監察人，也不是經理人，他什麼都不是，所以不是利衝法的規範對象。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:33.514000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:35.676000+08:00","text":"所以我們今天就要問部長這個問題。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:35.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:48.087000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長有講了，我們利衝法的揭露表裡面有負責人、董事、獨立董事、監察人跟經理人，對不對？對。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:48.087000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:51.455625+08:00","text":"所以蘇巧純通通不是，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:51.455625+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:54.824250+08:00","text":"他自稱為執行長，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:54.824250+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:54:58.192875+08:00","text":"不是，他不是公司的執行長，他只是用這個平台……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:54:58.192875+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:01.561500+08:00","text":"akaSwap的執行長嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:01.561500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:04.930125+08:00","text":"對，但他不是威如公司的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:04.930125+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:08.298750+08:00","text":"那我剛剛就跟部長講了兩家公司的關係嘛！不是！不是！","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:08.298750+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:11.667375+08:00","text":"他不是威如公司，我們只針對威如公司啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:11.667375+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:15.036000+08:00","text":"是威如公司來申請！","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:15.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:16.557000+08:00","text":"我們規範的對象是威如公司。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:16.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:17.557000+08:00","text":"好，我瞭解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:16.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:19.099000+08:00","text":"你規範威如嘛？是啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:19.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:20.941000+08:00","text":"利衝法的規定就是這樣，我們依法行政。","quality":0.062},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:20.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:21.962000+08:00","text":"好，利衝法的規定就是這樣，就跟剛剛國發會主委講的一樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:21.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:23.783000+08:00","text":"那我在這邊還是請教法務部，請你再一次回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:39.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:49.695000+08:00","text":"剛剛講利衝法要揭露的部分，部長講揭露的範圍就是公司的負責人、董事、獨立董事、監察人、經理人。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:50.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:52.456000+08:00","text":"那我在這邊請教，執行長會不會也是要規範的對象？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:52.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:55:52.656000+08:00","text":"你們的看法如何？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:55:58.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:00.322000+08:00","text":"這是兩個獨立的主體，我們規範……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:00.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:05.805000+08:00","text":"我今天不講主體，純粹就利衝法的揭露要點。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:05.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:18.854000+08:00","text":"如果今天不是負責人、不是董事、不是監察人、不是經理人，他就是執行長，這是不是利衝法要揭露的對象？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:19.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:19.214000+08:00","text":"還是我們的規範有遺漏？沒有！","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:19.214000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:21.447000+08:00","text":"沒有遺漏？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:21.447000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:23.680000+08:00","text":"沒有遺漏。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:23.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:25.584000+08:00","text":"所以以後就都用「執行長」就好了？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:25.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:26.584000+08:00","text":"不是，因為……","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:26.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:27.584000+08:00","text":"他不是威如公司的執行長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:25.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:27.588000+08:00","text":"我今天不是跟你講威如公司嘛！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:28.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:35.892000+08:00","text":"我現在在跟你講揭露的範圍、對象的範圍嘛！","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:37.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:39.696000+08:00","text":"這是就法的觀念、論點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:40.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:42.998000+08:00","text":"我今天不跟你講個案，跟你講法！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:43.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:49.203000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果是董事、監察人跟經理人，或相類似的職務的話，他是應該揭露。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:49.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:50.705000+08:00","text":"相類似的職務嘛？是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:51.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:55.088000+08:00","text":"那執行長應該就是相類似的職務吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:55.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:00.653000+08:00","text":"如果他的執行長是他那個公司是有來申請補助的，那可能就是要揭露。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副署長炤宏","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:00.653000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:01.653000+08:00","text":"但是它如果是不同主體的話……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:01.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:01.634000+08:00","text":"那可能就要揭露？","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:02.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:05.959000+08:00","text":"好，法務部這樣的答案，我接受。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:07.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:07.360000+08:00","text":"請回座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:11.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:26.092000+08:00","text":"部長，你要談的是兩個獨立個體，但是這兩個獨立個體明明在我們剛剛的說明當中就是有關係的，而且有緊密的關係，兩個合作其實是一體的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:26.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:38.159000+08:00","text":"那今天我們至少點出有相關職稱的人就應該要揭露。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:38.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:41.161000+08:00","text":"接下來我還是要回到索資的部分。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:43.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:46.425000+08:00","text":"同樣都是跟經濟部要的資料，部長你看！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:46.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:17.794000+08:00","text":"商業發展署給我的資料是完整的；中小及新創企業署他給我的資料全部塗黑！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:19.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:28.942000+08:00","text":"同樣的經濟部，同樣問的問題都是威如科技，他申請了研發計畫或申請轉型的計畫。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:31.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:36.349000+08:00","text":"同樣的索資，兩個單位來的完全不一樣。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:36.349000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:37.349000+08:00","text":"部長，你要怎麼向我解釋？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:37.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:37.370000+08:00","text":"怎麼會這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:43.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:48.351000+08:00","text":"這個應該是中小及新創企業署要說明，為什麼全部塗黑？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:49.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:50.732000+08:00","text":"你給我的資料全部塗黑！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"李副署長佳瑾","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:52.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:00.196000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們給委員的資料除了一些他的學經歷還有他過去的經歷等等事項，比較涉及公司隱密的……","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:00.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:02.557000+08:00","text":"所以重點就是機密，全部都是塗黑。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"李副署長佳瑾","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:04.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:07.840000+08:00","text":"但屬於補助的事項幾乎都沒有去識別的提供。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:09.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:09.960000+08:00","text":"好，所以你就塗黑！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:11.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:24.347000+08:00","text":"從這個表格你就看到了，我在這邊要肯定商發署，該提供的資料真的就完全提供，我給你肯定，我們給你肯定。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:24.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:28.009000+08:00","text":"我也要跟部長講，這個是要肯定。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:30.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:44.319000+08:00","text":"反而要檢討中小及新創企業署，同樣的結案報告，竟然一個部裡面兩個署，一個全部揭露公開，一個全部塗黑。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:46.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:58.749000+08:00","text":"這個就是要讓我們所有的國人來看，經濟部就這樣隱匿資訊，就是這樣的作為。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:00.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:05.187000+08:00","text":"我最後還是要問，我辦公室索取的資料還要等多久？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:08.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:09.208000+08:00","text":"威如科技的部分。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:10.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:16.369000+08:00","text":"委員，我先跟您說明一下，您要的這些計畫書及期中、期末報告我們都給了，但是期中、期末報告的附件……","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:16.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:19.330000+08:00","text":"給了附件，但重要的資料都沒給啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:19.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:24.031000+08:00","text":"要跟委員講，這些附件可能涉及到一些研發機密，所以我們可能再審視一下，我們會儘快……","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:24.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:24.851000+08:00","text":"又通通機密！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:25.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:33.373000+08:00","text":"今天我自始至終都聽到「個資法」、「機密」，所以通通不用給，對吧？不是！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:33.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:37.455000+08:00","text":"委員，我們會再審視一下，比較沒有涉及的部分會提供給委員。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:38.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:42.377000+08:00","text":"可以給的就給，不可以給的我通通塗黑，就是這樣嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:43.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:44.258000+08:00","text":"好，就算你要塗黑，哪時候要給？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"蘇署長文玲","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:44.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:44.438000+08:00","text":"我們現在那個資料在看……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:44.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:45.798000+08:00","text":"部長，我已經講了，就算你要全部塗黑，哪時候要給？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:57.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:58.194000+08:00","text":"就讓你塗黑吧！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:58.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:02.217000+08:00","text":"我直接讓全國人民知道，你們給的資料都是塗黑！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:02.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:03.598000+08:00","text":"好，我OK。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:04.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:04.639000+08:00","text":"哪時候可以給？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:05.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:06.741000+08:00","text":"再兩個禮拜好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:06.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:07.041000+08:00","text":"還要兩個禮拜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:09.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:11.245000+08:00","text":"全部塗黑，還要兩個禮拜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:11.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:14.768000+08:00","text":"那兩個禮拜就是要完整的資料給我，不塗黑哦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:15.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:17.050000+08:00","text":"沒有涉及機密，我們當然一定都會給啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:17.050000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:19.015000+08:00","text":"部長，這個可以給資料。","quality":0},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:19.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:20.980000+08:00","text":"涉及企業的營業祕密……而且相關的這個案件事實上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:20.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:25.905000+08:00","text":"我們不涉及營業機密，我們要的只是他的補助案，還有他的結案報告，就這樣而已。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:25.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:26.305000+08:00","text":"這個叫做營業機密？儘快！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:26.305000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:27.305000+08:00","text":"兩個禮拜。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:26.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:45.703000+08:00","text":"他跟你要錢，你都補助給他了，現在我要他的結案報告，你說這是營業機密？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:47.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:47.685000+08:00","text":"這樣全國人民聽得下去嗎？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:48.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:50.988000+08:00","text":"我們審查本來就是公開公平啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:51.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:53.951000+08:00","text":"我沒有說你們不公開啊！對啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:54.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:56.473000+08:00","text":"所以我們都是依法行政啊！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:57.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:58.795000+08:00","text":"好，一個禮拜給，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"龔部長明鑫","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:58.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:58.955000+08:00","text":"我們儘快啦！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:59.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:59.135000+08:00","text":"還是儘快？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:59.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:59.816000+08:00","text":"部長，光給一個索資啊！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:59.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:11.582000+08:00","text":"一個禮拜，我要資料，好不好？好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:11.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:11.602000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:12.102000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:16.387714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳清龍委員，謝謝部長跟主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:16.687714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:24.402000+08:00","text":"在往下進行之前，我還是跟各位說明一下，我的資料也都還沒有給。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:24.702000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:36.987714+08:00","text":"18號，產發署的無人機採購作業指引之執行情形，還沒給；5月26號，國發會投資曠世智能，也還沒回復，現在是我的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:37.287714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:40.144857+08:00","text":"商發署今天早上給，密件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:40.444857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:41.444857+08:00","text":"今天給！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:41.744857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:44.316286+08:00","text":"我26號要的，還好有給我。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:44.616286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:47.187714+08:00","text":"中企署，我是沒有發啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:47.487714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:54.630571+08:00","text":"因為我想說我們總召都發了，總召應該比召委大，你也還沒給。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:54.930571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:59.787714+08:00","text":"國發會，對美投資融資保證機制，也還沒給。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:00.087714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:04.087714+08:00","text":"預算我都很開心地讓你過，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:04.387714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:06.673429+08:00","text":"5月28號要的，沒有回復。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:06.973429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:08.973429+08:00","text":"資料都在這裡啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:09.273429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:15.844857+08:00","text":"然後你們商發署、中企署，我那時候就想說是不是大小眼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:16.144857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:21.573429+08:00","text":"6月9號我們總召要求的，你們6月16號一個禮拜就回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:21.873429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:25.873429+08:00","text":"就是他剛剛講的，我是去跟他要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:26.173429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:29.030571+08:00","text":"商發署、中企署的，對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:29.330571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:39.616286+08:00","text":"然後你們商發署今天給我的密件資料跟陳清龍總召要的，你們回復的差不多、一樣。奇怪！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:39.916286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:43.059143+08:00","text":"我召委比較小，總召比較大？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:43.359143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:47.073429+08:00","text":"他6月16號就拿到了，今天是7月1號啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:47.373429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:57.659143+08:00","text":"我是一個很仁慈的人，我也沒有像其他召委一樣咄咄逼人，但是你們不要這樣子整我啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:57.959143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:09.102000+08:00","text":"當我是塑膠做的，然後這樣我也沒辦法審預算、我也沒辦法幹嘛，那你們又常常說我們不審預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:09.402000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:12.259143+08:00","text":"我就沒有資料，我怎麼審？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:12.559143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:16.273429+08:00","text":"我怎麼看你的執行到底夠不夠？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:16.573429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:21.716286+08:00","text":"我擔任召委到現在一直覺得索資很無力啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:22.016286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:26.302000+08:00","text":"我感覺我是黑名單，被行政院列管耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:26.602000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:32.316286+08:00","text":"每個人都跟我回復說尚在研議中，行政院還沒核。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:32.616286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:42.902000+08:00","text":"我又沒幹嘛，我只是要一個資料確確實實是什麼而已，連這種索資的回復程序都這麼慢！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:43.202000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:45.773429+08:00","text":"這是我列出來的。拜託！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:46.073429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:50.073429+08:00","text":"我都善待各位，我都跟你就事論事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:50.373429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:08.373429+08:00","text":"另外，請廉政署回去查一下你們的釋函11005001810號，科學技術基本法的科研採購、促參公共建設法、產創之補助、產業創新，或其他具有對價之交易行為皆列入利衝法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:08.673429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:14.387714+08:00","text":"好，那請問，我們投資，國發會占股票，這有沒有對價？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:14.687714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:19.259143+08:00","text":"如果有，就要釋函給人家說有，列入對價。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:19.559143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:31.273429+08:00","text":"因為國發基金是根據產創條例第二十九條設立的，既然產創條例這邊是有的，所以就要符合利衝法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:31.573429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:41.573429+08:00","text":"如果釋函還不清楚，你就從這個釋函再往下，這樣我們就不用修法了，減少大家的負擔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:41.873429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:45.873429+08:00","text":"這是我剛剛想要跟國發會表達的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:46.173429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:49.030571+08:00","text":"為什麼今天找廉政署來？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:49.330571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:55.044857+08:00","text":"因為你們的回函給我，我的解釋就是這樣，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:55.344857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:00.773429+08:00","text":"再去研議一下，如果他們不清楚，就再給他，以上。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:01.073429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:04.787714+08:00","text":"再來，王安祥、王安祥，王安祥委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:05.087714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:08.230571+08:00","text":"賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆，賴瑞隆委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:08.530571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:11.673429+08:00","text":"馬文君、馬文君，馬文君委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:11.973429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:15.116286+08:00","text":"林倩綺、林倩綺，林倩綺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:15.416286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:18.559143+08:00","text":"陳超明、陳超明，陳超明委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:18.859143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:26.002000+08:00","text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:26.302000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:35.159143+08:00","text":"委員傅崐萁、蔡易餘、賴瑞隆、張嘉郡、陳超明所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:35.459143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:47.173429+08:00","text":"書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位一週內以書面答復，並副知本會；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1266,"blocks":[["陳委員清龍：（11時37分）謝謝主席。請國發會主委。"],["主席：請國發會葉主委。"],["陳委員清龍：腳受傷了，坐著就好了。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：謝謝、謝謝。"],["陳委員清龍：今天我們的專案報告最主要是針對國發會的國發基金，剛剛王委員也提到這份專案報告真的就這麼一頁，謝謝國發會的用心，一頁就可以來做專案報告。","在進入主題之前，我要先詢問一下，我的辦公室在5月26號發函給國發會，希望能夠提供曠世智能公司的相關資料，我的國會辦公室公文也檢附在上面。但是到目前為止，526到今天已經7月1號了，國發會對這個索資不給就是不給，請問一下，這個案子為什麼不給？是不是曠世智能公司涉及到的資料有關蘇貞昌前院長、我們的委員蘇巧慧，所以國發會能拖就拖、能延就延？哪時候可以給？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：跟委員報告，我們不會只針對個案，我們所有的案子都是這樣子。"],["陳委員清龍：就是索資一個多月了還是不給？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有、沒有，委員，你聽我說，有一些索資牽扯到個資及牽扯到……"],["陳委員清龍：我只是要曠世智能的申請投資資料，有什麼個資？有什麼機密？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這部分的話，公務人員依法行政，我不希望同仁違反一些規定，比如說像個資法……不能違反。"],["陳委員清龍：我知道不給就不給。好，不違反規定，哪時候可以給？已經過了一個多月了，哪時候可以給？要不要給？還是不要給？你在這邊講清楚！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不是！有牽扯到個資法，有牽扯到……"],["陳委員清龍：牽扯了一個多月！那你就回來說：「牽扯到個資法，我就是不給」。要不要給啊？一個答案。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們能夠給的都已經給了。"],["陳委員清龍：所以就是不給？你今天的答案就是不給？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：不是！那是不能給，那牽扯到個資的問題，我怎麼……"],["陳委員清龍：我要的曠世智能的東西不給？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：那是牽扯到個資跟營業機密，我們不能給啦！"],["陳委員清龍：好，牽扯到個資不給，這就是今天的答案。我不跟你扯了！確定不給？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：牽扯到個資跟營業機密，我們不能給，這個是讓同仁去違法！"],["陳委員清龍：好啦！一個籌資方案就叫做機密啦！所以就是不給！好！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：這個不是籌資方案的機密。委員，我們在這邊很理性地在討論問題啦！"],["陳委員清龍：好，我繼續來問。我不曉得國發會在擔心什麼？不知道你在擔心什麼？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我們在這邊很理性地跟委員在討論問題，我們不能讓我們的同仁違法啦！"],["主席：讓委員質詢好不好？"],["陳委員清龍：我要資料的這家公司，曠世智能公司，是蘇巧純擔任董事兼營運長的公司。蘇巧純是誰？我想經過媒體報導，大家都知道了。蘇巧純就是蘇貞昌院長的女兒，他的姐姐就是蘇巧慧委員。2022年蘇貞昌擔任行政院長，負責管理國發基金；蘇巧慧是立法委員，負責監督國發基金。而且這麼剛剛好，曠世智能公司就拿到了國發基金1,999萬9,000元的投資，連演都不用演，國發基金直接就給它投資了，完全無視於利益迴避。這真的是「國庫通蘇庫！國家的就是蘇家的！","國發會自己也對外說你們沒有針對個人、家族或背景對象提供所謂的差別待遇。但是按照國發基金創業天使投資作業要點來看，初次的投資不得超過2,000萬元，而曠世智能公司就這麼剛好！投資審議委員會……剛剛主委有講，外部委員真的就很厲害，就剛好給它投資了1,999萬9,000元。","所以在這裡我要問，國發會國發基金以贊助投資的效益來講，請問你們為什麼會投資一個只有唯一收入來源的公司？這個唯一收入來源，我這邊有講，就是一個「微股力」的平台，何況這個平台在我們投資之前，他就有涉入詐騙，我請問國發基金、國發會，投資評估審議委員會怎麼審的？就是這麼厲害，剛好投資了？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我跟委員報告，我們今天討論機制，不是討論個案，我覺得個案不適宜在這邊做討論。"],["陳委員清龍：我絕對是從個案看你們的通案。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：我可以回應委員……但是我覺得這個個案不是很合適在這邊討論。"],["陳委員清龍：這個個案已經公開了，媒體也公開了，你們也發布新聞稿說明，所以這是一個公開的訊息啊！委員就公開的訊息在委員會提出質詢，為什麼主委還是認為這是針對個案？我是從個案看你們的通案。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，我這邊跟你分享一下，就是這個個案已經到監察院了，所以我想我們就是尊重監察院。"],["陳委員清龍：你尊重監察院？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，但是我……"],["陳委員清龍：我今天執行立法委員的職責，我要來質詢你……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：但是今天我們討論機制，而不是討論個案。這是個案問題。"],["陳委員清龍：這個也是機制啊！我今天跟你談的，就是從個案看機制看出了問題啊！這是機制的問題啊！你看蘇巧純擔任曠世智能的董事兼營運長，按照公職人員利益衝突迴避法，他應該要揭露他跟蘇貞昌院長、跟蘇巧慧委員的關係。請問曠世智能在申請投資之前，有依法揭露這樣的資訊嗎？有沒有？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：國發基金對於所有投資案所秉持的方式都一樣，依法行政。"],["陳委員清龍：依法行政？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：牽扯到所謂的個資法第十四條裡面，投資這個不在一般的……所以我們認為其實就不適用。"],["陳委員清龍：他要申請投資，依照利衝法，他要揭露，這個叫做個資法？主委，本來就規定要揭露，你現在一直用個資法！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，你可以回去看一下個資法第十四條……謝謝！"],["陳委員清龍：好，這個是依照規定要揭露的。我是在跟你講利益衝突迴避法應揭露的部分，你不要跟我講個資法。","再來，國發會主委剛剛好像有跟洪委員提到，公職人員的利益衝突迴避法只針對交易或是補助的範圍，你剛剛好像回答說投資不在利衝法的規範範圍，是不是確定？你剛剛的……"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員的簡報上面就看不到「投資」兩個字啊！"],["陳委員清龍：你看不到「投資」兩個字？我現在就拿你的專案報告啊！這個報告是你寫的哦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：好啊！那就解釋啊！那個也是在利衝法第十四條……"],["陳委員清龍：受理申請投資案，皆依公職人員利益衝突迴避法規定辦理。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：委員，第十四條上面也是這樣子寫的。"],["陳委員清龍：對啊！有「投資」兩個字嗎？你有看到「投資」嗎？"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有，利衝法第十四條沒有看到……"],["陳委員清龍：你的報告還有你的新聞稿都有提到：依法揭露……受理申請投資案，要依利衝法的規定辦理。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：利衝法第十四條裡面沒有列入「投資」。"],["陳委員清龍：這是你自己的報告！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：對，但是利衝法第十四條裡面就是沒有投資啊！"],["陳委員清龍：你的報告，你自己去解釋。那我在這裡就跟主委講，交易、補助都算，投資就不算，那是不是代表利衝法真的需要修法了？要把投資加進去啊！這符合我們一般的概念嗎？我給你補助，要利衝法；我給你交易，我要利衝法；結果我給你投資，用人民的納稅錢給你投資，不用迴避，不用利衝法。這就是我們國發會主委自己親口在立法院的質詢所回答的，這個部分我們形成文字。"],["葉主任委員俊顯：沒有！沒有！委員，我們國發基金依法行政，我們一直以來都依法行政。"],["陳委員清龍：我就知道你依法行政啦！"],["葉主任委員俊顯：依法行政，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員清龍：好，廉政署在這裡嗎？法務部有派員吧？"],["主席：請廉政署。"],["陳委員清龍：法務部，你們是利衝法的主管機關，那我在這裡問你，投資是不是公職人員利益衝突迴避法的適用範圍？要不要適用？"],["林副署長炤宏：跟委員報告，投資……"],["陳委員清龍：國家的基金投資給個人或投資給民間，在不在利衝法的規範範圍？"],["林副署長炤宏：跟委員報告，確實「投資」這兩個字沒有在利衝法第十四條裡面的文字上面顯示出來。"],["陳委員清龍：所以文字沒有？"],["林副署長炤宏：是。"],["陳委員清龍：那你作為主管機關怎麼解釋？"],["林副署長炤宏：如果要解釋的話，那我們必須有一個個案的狀況。"],["陳委員清龍：個案就在這裡啊！剛剛主委一直講說我談的就是個案啊！"],["林副署長炤宏：這個地方不方便來做評論。"],["陳委員清龍：這個個案呢？"],["林副署長炤宏：因為如果是個案的話，這個案子法務部不是管轄機關。"],["陳委員清龍：投資1,999萬9,000元！"],["林副署長炤宏：對，這個案子法務部不是主管機關。"],["陳委員清龍：法務部不是主管機關？"],["林副署長炤宏：對，是監察院。"],["陳委員清龍：我現在問你的是利衝法有沒有規範投資？你說文字沒有嘛！"],["林副署長炤宏：是。"],["陳委員清龍：那就整個陽光……剛剛許忠信委員說陽光是最好的防腐劑，所以投資要不要算？依你法務部的觀點，你有辦法回答嗎？"],["林副署長炤宏：可能我們要依照文義上面來解釋。"],["陳委員清龍：所以我們今天就要上說文解字，就一定要有投資的字眼？就法務部的觀點，對不對？好，法務部的回答我知道，那我們一定會提修法，我一定會提修法，我們台灣民眾黨黨團一定會提修法。我就把投資加進去，讓你有文字可以看。好，請回座。"],["林副署長炤宏：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員清龍：我想我們剛剛的質詢到現在，大家也都看到了，國發基金用剛好低於限制2,000萬元以下的1,999萬9,000元，投資一家只有唯一收入來源的公司，何況這家公司還涉入詐騙。卓院長說，投資新創就是投資臺灣的國家未來。我們看到國發基金、國發會也幫這個案子做新聞發布、新聞說明。這到底是誠如卓院長所講的投資國家的未來，還是投資有關綠友友蘇家的未來？我想經過這樣的質詢，我們全臺灣的人民心中應該有一把尺。","再來，我剛剛談的是國發基金的一個部分，經濟部也有。主席，我請經濟部部長。"],["主席：請經濟部龔部長。"],["龔部長明鑫：委員好。"],["陳委員清龍：部長，我們剛剛談到用國發基金補助蘇家，其實經濟部也有。經濟部在2024年到2025年間，蘇巧純擔任威如科技旗下akaSwap的執行長，那時候蘇巧慧還是立委，他負責監督經濟部，結果蘇巧純的威如科技還是拿到經濟部的補助，分別是由中企署補助了164萬6,000元，以及商發署的120萬元。這樣的補助，我們也看到經濟部一直在解釋說蘇巧純跟威如科技沒有關係。但我在簡報上有講，在威如科技的結案報告中，他自己說威如科技是akaSwap的營運者。蘇巧純本人接受經濟部商發署的訪談時，自己也說威如科技是akaSwap的營運者。","拿補助的時候都說兩者有關係，然而現在因為我們在質疑，所以就跳脫說兩者之間沒有關係。我請教經濟部，威如科技在申請我剛剛講的那兩個計畫的時候，他有沒有提供公職人員跟關係人的身分揭露表？有沒有提供？"],["龔部長明鑫：報告委員，蘇巧純並不是威如科技的負責人，也不是董事，也不是獨立監察人，也不是經理人，他什麼都不是，所以不是利衝法的規範對象。"],["陳委員清龍：所以我們今天就要問部長這個問題。剛剛部長有講了，我們利衝法的揭露表裡面有負責人、董事、獨立董事、監察人跟經理人，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：對。"],["陳委員清龍：所以蘇巧純通通不是，對不對？他自稱為執行長，對不對？"],["龔部長明鑫：不是，他不是公司的執行長，他只是用這個平台……"],["陳委員清龍：akaSwap的執行長嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：對，但他不是威如公司的……"],["陳委員清龍：那我剛剛就跟部長講了兩家公司的關係嘛！"],["龔部長明鑫：不是！不是！他不是威如公司，我們只針對威如公司啊！是威如公司來申請！我們規範的對象是威如公司。"],["陳委員清龍：好，我瞭解。你規範威如嘛？"],["龔部長明鑫：是啊！利衝法的規定就是這樣，我們依法行政。"],["陳委員清龍：好，利衝法的規定就是這樣，就跟剛剛國發會主委講的一樣。那我在這邊還是請教法務部，請你再一次回答。剛剛講利衝法要揭露的部分，部長講揭露的範圍就是公司的負責人、董事、獨立董事、監察人、經理人。那我在這邊請教，執行長會不會也是要規範的對象？你們的看法如何？"],["林副署長炤宏：這是兩個獨立的主體，我們規範……"],["陳委員清龍：我今天不講主體，純粹就利衝法的揭露要點。如果今天不是負責人、不是董事、不是監察人、不是經理人，他就是執行長，這是不是利衝法要揭露的對象？還是我們的規範有遺漏？"],["林副署長炤宏：沒有！"],["陳委員清龍：沒有遺漏？"],["林副署長炤宏：沒有遺漏。"],["陳委員清龍：所以以後就都用「執行長」就好了？"],["林副署長炤宏：不是，因為……"],["龔部長明鑫：他不是威如公司的執行長。"],["陳委員清龍：我今天不是跟你講威如公司嘛！我現在在跟你講揭露的範圍、對象的範圍嘛！這是就法的觀念、論點。我今天不跟你講個案，跟你講法！"],["林副署長炤宏：跟委員報告，如果是董事、監察人跟經理人，或相類似的職務的話，他是應該揭露。"],["陳委員清龍：相類似的職務嘛？"],["林副署長炤宏：是。"],["陳委員清龍：那執行長應該就是相類似的職務吧？"],["林副署長炤宏：如果他的執行長是他那個公司是有來申請補助的，那可能就是要揭露。但是它如果是不同主體的話……"],["陳委員清龍：那可能就要揭露？好，法務部這樣的答案，我接受。請回座。","部長，你要談的是兩個獨立個體，但是這兩個獨立個體明明在我們剛剛的說明當中就是有關係的，而且有緊密的關係，兩個合作其實是一體的。那今天我們至少點出有相關職稱的人就應該要揭露。","接下來我還是要回到索資的部分。同樣都是跟經濟部要的資料，部長你看！商業發展署給我的資料是完整的；中小及新創企業署他給我的資料全部塗黑！同樣的經濟部，同樣問的問題都是威如科技，他申請了研發計畫或申請轉型的計畫。同樣的索資，兩個單位來的完全不一樣。部長，你要怎麼向我解釋？怎麼會這樣？這個應該是中小及新創企業署要說明，為什麼全部塗黑？你給我的資料全部塗黑！"],["李副署長佳瑾：跟委員報告，我們給委員的資料除了一些他的學經歷還有他過去的經歷等等事項，比較涉及公司隱密的……"],["陳委員清龍：所以重點就是機密，全部都是塗黑。"],["李副署長佳瑾：但屬於補助的事項幾乎都沒有去識別的提供。"],["陳委員清龍：好，所以你就塗黑！從這個表格你就看到了，我在這邊要肯定商發署，該提供的資料真的就完全提供，我給你肯定，我們給你肯定。我也要跟部長講，這個是要肯定。反而要檢討中小及新創企業署，同樣的結案報告，竟然一個部裡面兩個署，一個全部揭露公開，一個全部塗黑。這個就是要讓我們所有的國人來看，經濟部就這樣隱匿資訊，就是這樣的作為。","我最後還是要問，我辦公室索取的資料還要等多久？威如科技的部分。"],["蘇署長文玲：委員，我先跟您說明一下，您要的這些計畫書及期中、期末報告我們都給了，但是期中、期末報告的附件……"],["陳委員清龍：給了附件，但重要的資料都沒給啊！"],["蘇署長文玲：要跟委員講，這些附件可能涉及到一些研發機密，所以我們可能再審視一下，我們會儘快……"],["陳委員清龍：又通通機密！今天我自始至終都聽到「個資法」、「機密」，所以通通不用給，對吧？"],["蘇署長文玲：不是！委員，我們會再審視一下，比較沒有涉及的部分會提供給委員。"],["陳委員清龍：可以給的就給，不可以給的我通通塗黑，就是這樣嘛！好，就算你要塗黑，哪時候要給？"],["蘇署長文玲：我們現在那個資料在看……"],["陳委員清龍：部長，我已經講了，就算你要全部塗黑，哪時候要給？就讓你塗黑吧！我直接讓全國人民知道，你們給的資料都是塗黑！好，我OK。哪時候可以給？"],["龔部長明鑫：再兩個禮拜好不好？"],["陳委員清龍：還要兩個禮拜？全部塗黑，還要兩個禮拜？那兩個禮拜就是要完整的資料給我，不塗黑哦！"],["龔部長明鑫：沒有涉及機密，我們當然一定都會給啊！"],["陳委員清龍：部長，這個可以給資料。"],["龔部長明鑫：涉及企業的營業祕密……而且相關的這個案件事實上……"],["陳委員清龍：我們不涉及營業機密，我們要的只是他的補助案，還有他的結案報告，就這樣而已。這個叫做營業機密？"],["龔部長明鑫：儘快！兩個禮拜。"],["陳委員清龍：他跟你要錢，你都補助給他了，現在我要他的結案報告，你說這是營業機密？這樣全國人民聽得下去嗎？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們審查本來就是公開公平啊！"],["陳委員清龍：我沒有說你們不公開啊！"],["龔部長明鑫：對啊！所以我們都是依法行政啊！"],["陳委員清龍：好，一個禮拜給，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：我們儘快啦！"],["陳委員清龍：還是儘快？部長，光給一個索資啊！一個禮拜，我要資料，好不好？"],["龔部長明鑫：好。"],["陳委員清龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳清龍委員，謝謝部長跟主委。","在往下進行之前，我還是跟各位說明一下，我的資料也都還沒有給。18號，產發署的無人機採購作業指引之執行情形，還沒給；5月26號，國發會投資曠世智能，也還沒回復，現在是我的。商發署今天早上給，密件。今天給！我26號要的，還好有給我。中企署，我是沒有發啦！因為我想說我們總召都發了，總召應該比召委大，你也還沒給。國發會，對美投資融資保證機制，也還沒給。預算我都很開心地讓你過，對不對？5月28號要的，沒有回復。資料都在這裡啊！","然後你們商發署、中企署，我那時候就想說是不是大小眼？6月9號我們總召要求的，你們6月16號一個禮拜就回。就是他剛剛講的，我是去跟他要的。商發署、中企署的，對不對？然後你們商發署今天給我的密件資料跟陳清龍總召要的，你們回復的差不多、一樣。奇怪！我召委比較小，總召比較大？他6月16號就拿到了，今天是7月1號啊！","我是一個很仁慈的人，我也沒有像其他召委一樣咄咄逼人，但是你們不要這樣子整我啊！當我是塑膠做的，然後這樣我也沒辦法審預算、我也沒辦法幹嘛，那你們又常常說我們不審預算。我就沒有資料，我怎麼審？我怎麼看你的執行到底夠不夠？我擔任召委到現在一直覺得索資很無力啊！我感覺我是黑名單，被行政院列管耶！每個人都跟我回復說尚在研議中，行政院還沒核。我又沒幹嘛，我只是要一個資料確確實實是什麼而已，連這種索資的回復程序都這麼慢！這是我列出來的。拜託！我都善待各位，我都跟你就事論事。","另外，請廉政署回去查一下你們的釋函11005001810號，科學技術基本法的科研採購、促參公共建設法、產創之補助、產業創新，或其他具有對價之交易行為皆列入利衝法。好，那請問，我們投資，國發會占股票，這有沒有對價？如果有，就要釋函給人家說有，列入對價。因為國發基金是根據產創條例第二十九條設立的，既然產創條例這邊是有的，所以就要符合利衝法。如果釋函還不清楚，你就從這個釋函再往下，這樣我們就不用修法了，減少大家的負擔。這是我剛剛想要跟國發會表達的。為什麼今天找廉政署來？因為你們的回函給我，我的解釋就是這樣，好不好？再去研議一下，如果他們不清楚，就再給他，以上。","再來，王安祥、王安祥，王安祥委員。","賴瑞隆、賴瑞隆，賴瑞隆委員。","馬文君、馬文君，馬文君委員。","林倩綺、林倩綺，林倩綺委員。","陳超明、陳超明，陳超明委員。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員傅崐萁、蔡易餘、賴瑞隆、張嘉郡、陳超明所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位一週內以書面答復，並副知本會；委員另要求期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":364,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-19-19","speakers":["洪毓祥","邱議瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","許忠信","王鴻薇","陳清龍","傅崐萁","蔡易餘","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","陳超明"],"page_start":249,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長、國家發展委員會主任委員及法務部首長就「經濟部、國家發展委員會補助案審\n查機制、投資案審議程序中之利益衝突迴避規範全面性檢討」進行報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155701_00012"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}