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謝謝 之後我們有請外交部跟陸委會"},{"start":12.67,"end":30.869,"text":"市長胡主委好首先我想要請教一下市長市長最近有媒體報導出我們外交部有13件公文流入案網這件事情那監察院也今天也證實這個外流的文件內容跟我們外交部的公文相符我想要請教一下市長"},{"start":32.631,"end":48.009,"text":"就是為什麼這樣的機密資料會流到暗網去那這樣有誰要來負責未來要怎麼防堵其實這幾年立法院並沒有大幅刪減我們外交部的這些資安的預算那所以人民一定會懷疑說預算給了 設備也買了"},{"start":50.251,"end":73.467,"text":"結果我們公文還是外洩那這樣的資安真的有沒有花在島口上是第一個第二個更嚴重的就是說在當初外流的公文裡面涉及到當時的駐美大使蕭美琴返台的時候透過外交部喊請關務署免於失酒查驗一次那這件事情當時也引起社會高度的質疑那外交部第一時間是強調這文件的來源可疑"},{"start":74.187,"end":98.605,"text":"那甚至是指向是境外變造 偽造的這個任職作戰那執政黨一直以這個任職作戰來回應外界的質疑那現在檢察院調查已經證實相關外流的公文確實存在內容也跟我們外交部公文相符市長外交部是不是欠國人一個交代那當時我們把所有的質疑都貼上任職作戰那現在"},{"start":100.253,"end":118.362,"text":"到底當時是在釐清事實還是在轉移焦點我想今天我們要質疑的是說我們外交部面對外界爭議的態度你涉及到小米型的公文外流的時候外交部的第一時間選擇全面的否認貼標籤那現在你建財院證實這公文內容都相同這個已經不是單純的資安問題"},{"start":120.523,"end":145.116,"text":"這個是政府的誠信問題我想今天我們被證實的是13件公文能夠保證之後還有沒有更多的文件會曝光外交部不能每次出事都敷衍了事我想這個是讓人民對政府的信心另外這部分我就讓市長了解就好不用回答我要說明一下公文所謂的切到校部總統的這個部分真偽還是難辨"},{"start":147.077,"end":174.607,"text":"那麼我想這個東西直接來說因為我們有的確是有公文洩露在案網上面直接推論到這個公文就是為真我想這是一個過於快速的一個推論那麼第二個是說本部加強包括治安包括人員管制在這個整個防止未來的這個文件的外洩上面我們一定虛心的接受這個委員的指導以及監察院的調查的報告"},{"start":175.548,"end":184.01,"text":"這個完全沒有疑慮希望我們未來做事讓民眾能夠安心跟相信我今天想要請教一下陸委或副主委"},{"start":185.879,"end":203.752,"text":"所以很難得我們在國防委員會能夠見面其實在擔任內政召委的時候其實我們的互動一直都不錯那不過最近的這個鳳梨世家事件其實讓很多國人對於我們陸委會的做法有一些質疑那上個月台中縣長勞欽林錄製這個影片幫農民賣世家民間團體的農民團體去簽署這個採購備忘錄錄會第一時間大動作定調就是統戰"},{"start":212.498,"end":238.928,"text":"然後甚至喊請內政部去行政查處對付基層的農民跟災難的行政首長你們速度是快那反觀目前法院日前法院審理這個外交部部長這個助理涉嫌的這個共諜案的時候起訴的內容都涉及到總統行程等高度國家的機密面對這樣重大的國安漏洞跟用人的施查"},{"start":239.828,"end":249.177,"text":"陸委會就全體噤聲連一句要求行政查查態度都沒有所以這個事情會讓大家覺得是不是有雙標政治雙標的做法"},{"start":250.031,"end":275.219,"text":"那今天副主委你也來了我也讓副主委知道說這些事情你們還是要明確交代未來陸委會查處的標準到底是什麼是不是看顏色民眾會懷疑這是移民隊建屋的信任啦那我覺得不是認為國安不應該是這樣子那法律也不應該雙標那面對台灣國安的這個防線才會真的有效那也希望"},{"start":276.772,"end":296.267,"text":"未來我們陸委會在做這件事情能夠更明確的告訴大家哪些我們不會踩到陸委線這件事情那謝謝謝謝副主委謝謝是非常我需要說明嗎首先就是那個我們那個鳳梨世家今天早上已經寄到陸委會了我等一下中午回去會馬上品嘗"},{"start":297.108,"end":318.076,"text":"那在第二個就是說 剛剛您提到的這個部分來講因為這個海峽論壇的部分 事實上是在馬慶總統的時候就是定調那我們在海峽論壇舉辦以前的時候也已經有多了實名主委那天都來辦公室跟我報告過了我都能夠理解 但我認為說這兩件事處理的態度不一樣會讓我們不禁懷疑是不是有政治雙邊的方式也希望未來的"},{"start":319.176,"end":328.822,"text":"查處的標準能夠一致那也謝謝副主委今天的說明因為時間關係不好意思我就不再讓你回覆我們想要請回到今天我們今天討論的這個專題也請那個顧部長"},{"start":342.559,"end":357.85,"text":"全球規模最大的多國海上聯合軍演2026的環太平洋軍事演習2024在夏威夷舉辦總共有31個國家大概25000名的官兵參與演習堪稱是全世界最大的海上軍演"},{"start":358.45,"end":384.581,"text":"我想韓太軍演它最主要的核心的意義在於強化盟國之間跟夥伴國家的協同作戰的能力來維護印太地區的海上航行安全然後達到區域組合以及維持地緣平穩的這個戰略目的我們說的就是透過多國的海上操演讓各國的海軍透過軍演能夠了解彼此武器系統的配置提高戰時的作戰效率"},{"start":386.022,"end":410.298,"text":"這一次的環帶演習我國還是沒有辦法參加這個我們也覺得很可惜因為難得有這樣的機會可以跟多國一起參與這項演訓我們如果說可以透過這項演訓也可以了解到彼此作戰的系統未來真的暫時說我們要怎麼樣來協助然後也對我們在做我們台海的這個防衛的時候有很大的幫助未來如果這樣機會我們希望能夠多多參與"},{"start":414.349,"end":437.441,"text":"回到今天的主題就是我想要請教部長未來台灣一級專艦的規劃方向過去不管是自製或是外購我們一直希望能夠獲得神盾艦透過神盾艦優秀的雷達指揮系統能夠抵禦共軍龐大的飛彈攻擊可惜到現在我們一直沒有機會獲得這次環彈演習美軍來幫我們夢寐以求摸鼻彎好"},{"start":442.804,"end":468.451,"text":"這個神盾級的巡洋艦拿來當作靶船這該沒菜啦那部長我們2014年的時候其實就有向美軍採購兩艘在服役的這個中派里級的這個巡防艦那面對面對中國這龐大的飛彈以及這無人機群我們現有海軍的這個戰艦是目前是幾乎無法來阻擋那國造的這個神盾艦仍然在未定的情況下國防部有沒有考慮"},{"start":469.833,"end":470.973,"text":"您是說向美方採購嗎?"},{"start":486.536,"end":507.482,"text":"我想這個部分依慣例我們不會在這個公開場合予以評論好 謝謝部長部長 因為時間關係我直接在聊就是說因為無人機的出現 在戰場的出現讓各國對於整個戰略分布重新有新的思考那像英國"},{"start":508.502,"end":532.717,"text":"他原本是要規劃有13要達到13艘傳統的主力戰艦你因為這樣他改變了他的整個計劃然後改採用平價這個通用戰鬥艦我想這也是因為無人機的這個威脅他英國規劃這個通用的戰鬥艦他不僅是肩負英國的海上安全同時他也會擔任無人系統的控制樞紐未來在控制空中"},{"start":533.377,"end":554.991,"text":"水面跟水下的無人載具來共同抵禦敵人因此可見未來在無人載具上的方向下過去傳統的這些反潛為主的傳統戰艦會因為無人載具而改變目前各國因為面對無人載具的防禦開始思考新的船艦的規劃方向我們有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":556.833,"end":564.559,"text":"現在我們本來就有運用這一個監偵型的無人機來配合艦艇執行這個聯合勤監政的任務未來的話我們會籌貨多型的無人載具不管是機還是"},{"start":572.205,"end":599.919,"text":"就包括我們的軍艦的採購部分啦是不是就未來的艦軍的部分艦軍的部分我們當然會將無人機無人艦增型的無人機艦增型的無人機跟無人艇會來結合來建構一個海域決志的一個完整的海域決志的能力可是不是有意思說未來我們的艦隊的部分是不是有考慮像英國這樣子採用這樣通用型的軍艦它用比較平價的方式它的作戰方式跟以前可能不太一樣"},{"start":600.179,"end":626.554,"text":"我現在的意思應該是有人艦帶無人艦啦 是不是 您的意思是這樣子這樣子的一個模式在台海的這個在威脅應處的情況之下要混成灰色地帶跟這一個全面入侵的狀況那這個部分細節如果我也想要知 我覺得我們可能可以再私下討論一下好 謝謝部長 部長這個整個國際因為真的無人機的出現之後整個戰爭的形態都改變了齁"},{"start":628.803,"end":644.802,"text":"那面對現在的無人機的戰場其實也會其實我們傳統戰機它也變成更大的一個目標我想這在未來建議上就要多多思考那也謝謝部長跟還有我們外交部次長還有我們陸委會副主委大家辛苦了那以上諮詢到此結束好 謝謝謝謝黃中平委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:41.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:41.574000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:42.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:44.558000+08:00","text":"有請外交部跟陸委會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:54.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:54.471000+08:00","text":"次長好，副主委好。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:55.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:56:58.015000+08:00","text":"首先，我想要請教一下次長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:56:59.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:10.528000+08:00","text":"次長，最近有媒體報導外交部有13件公文流入暗網這件事情，監察院今天也證實這個外流的文件內容跟外交部的公文相符。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:10.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:17.436000+08:00","text":"我想要請教一下次長，為什麼這樣的機密資料會流到暗網去？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:18.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:20.059000+08:00","text":"有誰要來負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:20.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:20.940000+08:00","text":"未來要怎麼防堵？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:21.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:57:35.274000+08:00","text":"其實這幾年立法院並沒有大幅刪減外交部資安的預算，所以人民一定會懷疑說，預算也給了，設備也買了，結果外交部公文還是外洩，這樣的資安，錢有沒有真的花在刀口上？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:57:36.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:10.879000+08:00","text":"更嚴重的是，在當初外流的公文裡面，涉及當時的駐美大使蕭美琴返臺的時候，透過外交部函請關務署免於私酒查驗一事，這件事情當時也引起社會高度的質疑，外交部第一時間是強調這個文件的來源可疑，甚至指向境外變造、偽造的認知作戰，那執政黨一直以認知作戰來回應外界的質疑，那現在監察院調查已經證實相關外流的公文確實存在，內容也跟外交部公文相符。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:13.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:15.382000+08:00","text":"次長，外交部是不是欠國人一個交代？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:17.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:24.014000+08:00","text":"當時把所有的質疑都貼上認知作戰的標籤，到底當時是在釐清事實還是在轉移焦點？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:24.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:43.164000+08:00","text":"今天我們要質疑的是外交部面對外界爭議的態度，涉及到蕭美琴的公文外流的時候，外交部第一時間選擇全面的否認，貼標籤，那現在監察院證實公文內容都相同，這個已經不是單純的資安問題，這個是政府的誠信問題。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:43.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:49.387000+08:00","text":"我想今天被證實的是13件公文，能不能夠保證之後還有沒有更多文件會曝光？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:50.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:58:59.373000+08:00","text":"外交部不能每次出事都敷衍了事，這個會讓人民對政府的信心動搖，這個部分我就讓次長了解就好，不用回答。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:58:59.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:19.561000+08:00","text":"沒有，我要說明一下，公文牽涉到蕭副總統的部分，真偽還是難辨，直接來說，因為我們的確是有公文洩露在暗網上面，如果直接推論到這個公文就是為真，我想這是一個過於快速的推論。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳次長明祺","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:20.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:39.034000+08:00","text":"第二個是本部加強管制，包括資安和人員的管制，防止未來文件的外洩，我們一定虛心接受委員的指導，以及監察院的調查報告，這個完全沒有疑慮，我們會繼續精進。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:39.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:42.764000+08:00","text":"次長，謝謝，我們希望外交部未來做事能讓民眾安心跟相信。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:43.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:44.990000+08:00","text":"接下來我想要請教一下陸委會副主委。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:44.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T11:59:47.240000+08:00","text":"是，委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T11:59:47.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:01.590000+08:00","text":"副主委，難得我們在外交及國防委員會能夠見面，本席在擔任內政召委的時候，其實我們的互動一直都不錯，不過最近的鳳梨釋迦事件，讓很多國人對於陸委會的做法有一些質疑。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:02.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:22.241000+08:00","text":"上個月臺東縣縣長饒慶鈴錄製影片幫農民賣釋迦，民間團體的農民團體去簽署採購備忘錄，陸委會第一時間大動作定調就是統戰，然後甚至函請內政部去行政查處，對付基層的農民跟在野黨的行政首長，速度之快！","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:24.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:00:50.157000+08:00","text":"反觀日前法院審理外交部部長助理涉嫌共諜案的時候，起訴的內容都涉及到總統行程等高度國家機密，面對這樣重大的國安漏洞跟用人的失察，陸委會就全體噤聲，連一句要求行政查察的態度都沒有，所以這個事情會讓人家覺得是不是有政治雙標的做法。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:00:51.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:00.474000+08:00","text":"今天副主委你也來了，我也讓副主委知道這件事情你們還是要明確交代，未來陸委會查處的標準到底是什麼，是不是看顏色？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:00.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:04.155000+08:00","text":"民眾會懷疑，這是人民對政府的信任。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:07.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:25.658000+08:00","text":"本席認為國安不應該是這樣子，法律也不應該雙標，面對臺灣國安的防線才會真的有效，也希望未來陸委會在做這些事情時，能夠更明確的告訴大家，哪一些是我們不會踩到陸委線的事情。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:27.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:27.800000+08:00","text":"謝謝副主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:31.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:37.247000+08:00","text":"首先，鳳梨釋迦今天早上已經寄到陸委會了，我等一下中午回去會馬上品嚐。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"沈副主任委員有忠","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:38.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:01:47.912000+08:00","text":"再來，第二個就是剛剛您提到的這個部分，海峽論壇事實上是在馬前總統的時候定調，我們在海峽論壇舉辦以前，也已經有對外說明。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:01:48.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:03.638000+08:00","text":"主委那一天來辦公室都跟我報告過了，我都能夠理解，但是我認為這兩件事處理的態度不一樣，會讓我們不禁懷疑是不是有政治雙標的方式，也希望未來你們查處的標準能夠一致，謝謝副主委今天的說明。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:04.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:09.822000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，不好意思，我就不再讓你回復，回到今天討論的專題，請顧部長。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:09.822000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:16.690500+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:16.690500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:23.559000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:23.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:02:38.830000+08:00","text":"部長，我知道全球規模最大的多國海上聯合軍演，也就是2026環太平洋軍事演習，6月24日在夏威夷舉辦，總共有31個國家、大約二萬五千名官兵參與演訓，堪稱是全世界最大的海上軍演。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:02:39.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:05.561000+08:00","text":"我想環太軍演最主要的核心意義在於強化盟國之間跟夥伴國家協同作戰的能力，來維護印太地區的海上航行安全，然後達到區域阻嚇及維持地緣平衡的戰略目的，講白一點就是，透過多國的海上操演，讓各國海軍透過軍演能夠了解彼此武器系統的配置，提高戰時的作戰效率。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:07.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:29.577000+08:00","text":"這一次的環太演習，我國還是沒有辦法參加，我們也覺得很可惜，因為難得有這樣的機會可以跟多國一起參與這樣的演訓，如果我們可以透過這樣的演訓，也可以了解到彼此作戰的系統，預想未來真的戰時要怎麼樣來協助，然後也對我們在做臺海的防衛時有很大的幫助。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:30.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:03:31.298000+08:00","text":"未來如果有這樣的機會，我們希望國防部來爭取，讓我們能夠多參與。","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:03:35.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:06.225000+08:00","text":"回到今天的主題，我想要請教部長，未來臺灣一級作戰艦規劃的方向，因為過去不管是自製或外購，我們一直希望能夠獲得神盾艦，透過神盾艦優秀的雷達指揮系統，能夠抵禦共軍龐大的飛彈攻擊，可惜到現在我們一直沒有機會獲得，這次環太演習，美軍還把我們夢寐以求的莫比爾灣號神盾級巡洋艦拿來當作靶船，這太可惜了！","quality":0.866},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:08.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:29.451000+08:00","text":"部長，我們2014年的時候其實就有向美軍採購兩艘仍在服役中的派里級巡防艦，面對中國龐大的飛彈以及無人機群，我們現有的海軍戰艦幾乎是無法阻擋，在國造的神盾艦仍然未定的情況下，國防部有沒有考慮採購目前還在服役的神盾艦來取代我們的紀德級艦，以強化海上的防空反潛能力，有嗎？","quality":0.661},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:30.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:31.973000+08:00","text":"您是說向美方採購嗎？是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:48.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:54.358000+08:00","text":"這個部分依慣例我們不會在公開場合予以評論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:04:54.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:04:55.618000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:00.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:23.651000+08:00","text":"另外，因為無人機在戰場上出現，讓各國對於整個戰略分布重新有新的思考，像英國原本是規劃要達到13艘傳統的主力戰艦，也因為這樣而改變了整個計畫，改採用平價的通用戰鬥艦，我想這也是因為無人機的威脅。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:23.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:37.439000+08:00","text":"英國規劃的通用戰鬥艦，不僅是肩負英國的海上安全，同時也會擔任無人系統的控制樞紐，未來控制空中、水面跟水下的無人載具來共同抵禦敵人。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:38.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:49.386000+08:00","text":"因此可見未來在無人載具的蓬勃發展下，過去這些防空、反潛為主的傳統戰艦，會因為無人載具而改變。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:49.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:05:55.991000+08:00","text":"目前各國因為面對無人載具的防禦，開始思考新的船艦的規劃方向，我們有沒有這樣的規劃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:05:58.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:05.539000+08:00","text":"目前我們本來就有運用監偵型的無人機來配合艦艇執行聯合情監偵任務，未來我們會籌獲多型的無人載具，不管是機還是艇，然後……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:13.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:16.126000+08:00","text":"就包括我們的軍艦採購部分，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:16.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:17.527000+08:00","text":"就未來的建軍部分。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:18.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:30.133000+08:00","text":"建軍的部分，我們當然會將監偵型的無人機跟無人艇結合，來建構一個完整的海域決策能力。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:30.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:40.919000+08:00","text":"部長，我現在所講的意思是，未來我們的艦隊是不是有考慮像英國這樣子採用通用型的軍艦，用比較平價的方式，他們的作戰方式跟以前可能不太一樣……","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:41.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:44.321000+08:00","text":"委員的意思應該是有人艦帶無人艦，是不是？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:44.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:45.361000+08:00","text":"您的意思是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:45.361000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:06:46.782000+08:00","text":"對，是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:06:46.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:01.511000+08:00","text":"這樣子的一個模式，在臺海威脅應處的情況之下，要分成灰色地帶跟全面入侵的狀況，這個部分細節如果委員想要瞭解，我覺得我們可以再私下討論一下。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:02.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:03.192000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:03.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:17.672000+08:00","text":"整個國際在無人機出現之後，整個戰爭的形態都改變了，面對現在無人機的戰場，其實我們傳統戰艦也變成更大的一個目標，我想這在未來建軍上就要多多思考。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"黃委員建賓","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:18.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:25.461000+08:00","text":"也謝謝部長跟外交部次長，還有陸委會副主委，大家辛苦了，以上質詢到此結束，謝謝，謝謝主席。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:25.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:25.802000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:26.302000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:28.302000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃建賓委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-01T12:07:28.602000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-01T12:07:31.744857+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":814,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時56分）謝謝召委。有請外交部跟陸委會。","次長好，副主委好。首先，我想要請教一下次長。次長，最近有媒體報導外交部有13件公文流入暗網這件事情，監察院今天也證實這個外流的文件內容跟外交部的公文相符。我想要請教一下次長，為什麼這樣的機密資料會流到暗網去？有誰要來負責？未來要怎麼防堵？其實這幾年立法院並沒有大幅刪減外交部資安的預算，所以人民一定會懷疑說，預算也給了，設備也買了，結果外交部公文還是外洩，這樣的資安，錢有沒有真的花在刀口上？更嚴重的是，在當初外流的公文裡面，涉及當時的駐美大使蕭美琴返臺的時候，透過外交部函請關務署免於私酒查驗一事，這件事情當時也引起社會高度的質疑，外交部第一時間是強調這個文件的來源可疑，甚至指向境外變造、偽造的認知作戰，那執政黨一直以認知作戰來回應外界的質疑，那現在監察院調查已經證實相關外流的公文確實存在，內容也跟外交部公文相符。","次長，外交部是不是欠國人一個交代？當時把所有的質疑都貼上認知作戰的標籤，到底當時是在釐清事實還是在轉移焦點？今天我們要質疑的是外交部面對外界爭議的態度，涉及到蕭美琴的公文外流的時候，外交部第一時間選擇全面的否認，貼標籤，那現在監察院證實公文內容都相同，這個已經不是單純的資安問題，這個是政府的誠信問題。我想今天被證實的是13件公文，能不能夠保證之後還有沒有更多文件會曝光？外交部不能每次出事都敷衍了事，這個會讓人民對政府的信心動搖，這個部分我就讓次長了解就好，不用回答。"],["陳次長明祺：沒有，我要說明一下，公文牽涉到蕭副總統的部分，真偽還是難辨，直接來說，因為我們的確是有公文洩露在暗網上面，如果直接推論到這個公文就是為真，我想這是一個過於快速的推論。第二個是本部加強管制，包括資安和人員的管制，防止未來文件的外洩，我們一定虛心接受委員的指導，以及監察院的調查報告，這個完全沒有疑慮，我們會繼續精進。"],["黃委員建賓：次長，謝謝，我們希望外交部未來做事能讓民眾安心跟相信。接下來我想要請教一下陸委會副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：是，委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委，難得我們在外交及國防委員會能夠見面，本席在擔任內政召委的時候，其實我們的互動一直都不錯，不過最近的鳳梨釋迦事件，讓很多國人對於陸委會的做法有一些質疑。上個月臺東縣縣長饒慶鈴錄製影片幫農民賣釋迦，民間團體的農民團體去簽署採購備忘錄，陸委會第一時間大動作定調就是統戰，然後甚至函請內政部去行政查處，對付基層的農民跟在野黨的行政首長，速度之快！反觀日前法院審理外交部部長助理涉嫌共諜案的時候，起訴的內容都涉及到總統行程等高度國家機密，面對這樣重大的國安漏洞跟用人的失察，陸委會就全體噤聲，連一句要求行政查察的態度都沒有，所以這個事情會讓人家覺得是不是有政治雙標的做法。","今天副主委你也來了，我也讓副主委知道這件事情你們還是要明確交代，未來陸委會查處的標準到底是什麼，是不是看顏色？民眾會懷疑，這是人民對政府的信任。本席認為國安不應該是這樣子，法律也不應該雙標，面對臺灣國安的防線才會真的有效，也希望未來陸委會在做這些事情時，能夠更明確的告訴大家，哪一些是我們不會踩到陸委線的事情。謝謝副主委。"],["沈副主任委員有忠：首先，鳳梨釋迦今天早上已經寄到陸委會了，我等一下中午回去會馬上品嚐。","再來，第二個就是剛剛您提到的這個部分，海峽論壇事實上是在馬前總統的時候定調，我們在海峽論壇舉辦以前，也已經有對外說明。"],["黃委員建賓：主委那一天來辦公室都跟我報告過了，我都能夠理解，但是我認為這兩件事處理的態度不一樣，會讓我們不禁懷疑是不是有政治雙標的方式，也希望未來你們查處的標準能夠一致，謝謝副主委今天的說明。因為時間的關係，不好意思，我就不再讓你回復，回到今天討論的專題，請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長早。部長，我知道全球規模最大的多國海上聯合軍演，也就是2026環太平洋軍事演習，6月24日在夏威夷舉辦，總共有31個國家、大約二萬五千名官兵參與演訓，堪稱是全世界最大的海上軍演。我想環太軍演最主要的核心意義在於強化盟國之間跟夥伴國家協同作戰的能力，來維護印太地區的海上航行安全，然後達到區域阻嚇及維持地緣平衡的戰略目的，講白一點就是，透過多國的海上操演，讓各國海軍透過軍演能夠了解彼此武器系統的配置，提高戰時的作戰效率。這一次的環太演習，我國還是沒有辦法參加，我們也覺得很可惜，因為難得有這樣的機會可以跟多國一起參與這樣的演訓，如果我們可以透過這樣的演訓，也可以了解到彼此作戰的系統，預想未來真的戰時要怎麼樣來協助，然後也對我們在做臺海的防衛時有很大的幫助。未來如果有這樣的機會，我們希望國防部來爭取，讓我們能夠多參與。","回到今天的主題，我想要請教部長，未來臺灣一級作戰艦規劃的方向，因為過去不管是自製或外購，我們一直希望能夠獲得神盾艦，透過神盾艦優秀的雷達指揮系統，能夠抵禦共軍龐大的飛彈攻擊，可惜到現在我們一直沒有機會獲得，這次環太演習，美軍還把我們夢寐以求的莫比爾灣號神盾級巡洋艦拿來當作靶船，這太可惜了！部長，我們2014年的時候其實就有向美軍採購兩艘仍在服役中的派里級巡防艦，面對中國龐大的飛彈以及無人機群，我們現有的海軍戰艦幾乎是無法阻擋，在國造的神盾艦仍然未定的情況下，國防部有沒有考慮採購目前還在服役的神盾艦來取代我們的紀德級艦，以強化海上的防空反潛能力，有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說向美方採購嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分依慣例我們不會在公開場合予以評論。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。","另外，因為無人機在戰場上出現，讓各國對於整個戰略分布重新有新的思考，像英國原本是規劃要達到13艘傳統的主力戰艦，也因為這樣而改變了整個計畫，改採用平價的通用戰鬥艦，我想這也是因為無人機的威脅。英國規劃的通用戰鬥艦，不僅是肩負英國的海上安全，同時也會擔任無人系統的控制樞紐，未來控制空中、水面跟水下的無人載具來共同抵禦敵人。因此可見未來在無人載具的蓬勃發展下，過去這些防空、反潛為主的傳統戰艦，會因為無人載具而改變。目前各國因為面對無人載具的防禦，開始思考新的船艦的規劃方向，我們有沒有這樣的規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：目前我們本來就有運用監偵型的無人機來配合艦艇執行聯合情監偵任務，未來我們會籌獲多型的無人載具，不管是機還是艇，然後……"],["黃委員建賓：就包括我們的軍艦採購部分，是不是？就未來的建軍部分。"],["顧部長立雄：建軍的部分，我們當然會將監偵型的無人機跟無人艇結合，來建構一個完整的海域決策能力。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我現在所講的意思是，未來我們的艦隊是不是有考慮像英國這樣子採用通用型的軍艦，用比較平價的方式，他們的作戰方式跟以前可能不太一樣……"],["顧部長立雄：委員的意思應該是有人艦帶無人艦，是不是？您的意思是這樣？"],["黃委員建賓：對，是這樣。"],["顧部長立雄：這樣子的一個模式，在臺海威脅應處的情況之下，要分成灰色地帶跟全面入侵的狀況，這個部分細節如果委員想要瞭解，我覺得我們可以再私下討論一下。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長。整個國際在無人機出現之後，整個戰爭的形態都改變了，面對現在無人機的戰場，其實我們傳統戰艦也變成更大的一個目標，我想這在未來建軍上就要多多思考。也謝謝部長跟外交部次長，還有陸委會副主委，大家辛苦了，以上質詢到此結束，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-24","speakers":["陳冠廷","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","林楚茵","陳雪生","馬文君","王義川","沈伯洋","牛煦庭","王安祥","許忠信","鍾佳濱","黃建賓","賴士葆","翁曉玲","郭昱晴","黃仁","邱志偉"],"page_start":313,"meetingDate":["2026-07-01"],"gazette_id":"1155601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155601_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部、外交部、海洋委員會海巡署、大陸委員會報告「中國船舶常態化巡弋我國海域之因\n應作為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155601_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}