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我們這裡針對口頭部分加以補充在近期工作方面因應中共對台複合性的施壓我們致力於維護台海現狀"},{"start":2023.837,"end":2052.956,"text":"今年五二零後中共透過軍事威脅外交打壓經濟脅迫社會爭鬥法律戰以及一連串的混合認知戰及灰色地帶侵擾等複合性的手段日益對台升高施壓這也是台海及區域以及區域和平穩定現狀的最大威脅近期藉由三個八十週年系列的活動宣傳其對台"},{"start":2053.977,"end":2059.421,"text":"主權的主張並在國際場域宣傳其一中原則扭曲聯大2758號決議壓縮台灣國際空間另外一方面中共持續推動促融促統10月以來中共高層三度提及推進統一並強調統一後的好處中共也在10月召開了四中全會通過了1555規劃建議"},{"start":2083.459,"end":2106.317,"text":"涉台的部分仍重申要推動兩岸融合發展面對中共對台施壓脅迫政府將積極落實和平四大支柱行動方案以及國安統戰威脅17項的因應策略來堅定捍衛國家主權安全以及民眾的福祉致力於維護台海和平穩定現狀第二"},{"start":2108.243,"end":2131.593,"text":"本會會密駐中國大陸經濟與兩岸經濟情勢的變化來增強台灣的經濟韌性當前中國大陸經濟面臨多重的矛盾困境疊加美中對抗及地緣政治的壓力壓縮中國大陸經濟發展的空間中共相關的政策規劃目標能否達成"},{"start":2133.194,"end":2161.529,"text":"可能都會面臨嚴峻的挑戰而相關的情勢的變化以升高台商在中國大陸投資經營的風險以及不確定性本會將持續密駐國際中國大陸經濟及兩岸經貿情勢來強化兩岸經貿交流的風險控管滾動檢討兩岸經貿政策持續強化服務大陸台商協助多元佈局"},{"start":2162.549,"end":2190.294,"text":"提升競爭力及風險意識以增強台灣的經濟韌性另外政府也基於台灣優先及立足台灣佈局全球行銷全世界的經貿戰略積極改善投資環境延長歡迎台商回台投資行動番號到2027年底第三 落實兩岸人員交流管理機制提醒國人負入人身安全風險"},{"start":2192.1,"end":2214.248,"text":"國人賦入的人身安全一向是政府最重視的議題從去年到今年的10月31號本會接獲國人賦入失聯遭留置盤查以及疑似遭到中共有關部門限制國人人身自由的案例達到233人"},{"start":2217.386,"end":2243.452,"text":"这些统计当中因为涉及宗教因素而遭到中共有关部门逮捕关押者既有14名迄今均未获释返回台湾国人附入仍然具有高度的安全风险对于个案的状况政府会依照家属的意愿提供所需要的协助那另外我们也会透过向路方洽查"},{"start":2244.392,"end":2245.715,"text":"要求落實協議通報以確保國人權益我們也會透過"},{"start":2250.373,"end":2276.337,"text":"多元的管道提醒國人甚思思考附路的安全性以及必要性留意人生的安全另外我們針對中共對台強化統戰滲透破壞兩岸單一身份的制度我們在明年開始正式實施常態化機制化的查核對國家有高度忠誠義務的軍公教人員"},{"start":2277.137,"end":2303.234,"text":"不得再入涉及及領用中共的身份證件這是為了強化我們的民主韌性與國家安全更是為了保護我們真實的自由民主的生活方式我們在上個月有進行民調高達77%的民眾支持政府查核軍公教有無領用中共身份證件"},{"start":2305.035,"end":2317.142,"text":"顯見政府的查核作為獲得大多數國人的肯定與支持四 深化我青年學子中國大陸的嗜讀教育多面向的認識兩岸關係發展現況"},{"start":2320.684,"end":2338.022,"text":"為強化協助台灣青年學生多面向的認識中國大陸社會現況及兩岸關係發展的深度與廣度本會結合國內大學學術專業機構推動相關的多元教學活動"},{"start":2339.604,"end":2361.622,"text":"並協助大學通識中心科技大學開設相關的通識課程運用民間學術專業資源來提升我青年學子對國際及兩岸事務之參與以及對提升兩岸議題的深度理解與思辨能力五 密駐港澳情勢發展的動態"},{"start":2363.844,"end":2385.304,"text":"因應保障公務機密與國人安全中共藉由國安法制融合策略與愛國者治理加深對港澳之掌控並在各領域廣設國安紅線持續削弱香港的基本自由澳門多元意見表達的空間也受到了限縮"},{"start":2386.385,"end":2415.949,"text":"政府密切關注港澳的情勢發展收整香港涉國安案件的行為樣態以及國安禁地的資訊會在本會的官網公布前往或過境港澳注意事項提醒國人注意赴港澳的風險我們也在今年的9月10號修正行政院及所屬各機關人員赴香港澳門注意事項明定我政府相關人員赴港澳"},{"start":2416.389,"end":2430.853,"text":"不論平日假日及各種事由應該在行前通報完成人事差遣系統登錄作業如有各種的會見或聯繫特定身份的人員也應該主動通報所屬機關及本會以強化"},{"start":2435.394,"end":2459.382,"text":"公務機密以及公務人員人身安全的保障在未來的工作的方向第一個我們仍然持續掌握中共的對台動態維護台海和平及台灣民主自由當前中國大陸的經濟受到美中貿易科技管制等影響持續低迷內部控制"},{"start":2461.443,"end":2489.566,"text":"區議員民怨及社會壓力累積日升加上區域地緣政治的情勢動盪美中台互動關係變化等都可能牽動中共對台政策及兩岸關係的走向本會將持續密註掌握中國大陸政經情勢的發展以及中共對台動向針對中共對台的統戰滲透觸動促統等這些政治的操作我們會妥善研議"},{"start":2490.393,"end":2502.742,"text":"因應的作為以致力於維護台海和平穩定及台灣的自由民主生活方式二拒絕中共一中前提捍衛台灣參與APEC會議的正當權益"},{"start":2504.195,"end":2533.915,"text":"明年中国大陆将在深圳准备APEC峰会,针对中共设置一中原则作为我国与会的政治前提。政府对参与APEC的立场非常明确,台湾与中国大陆都是APEC正式的成员,台湾参与各项APEC活动是正当的权益,APEC场域不存在中共所谓一中原则,面对中共无理打压台湾的国际参与,"},{"start":2534.515,"end":2555.466,"text":"台灣不會屈服 更不會接受無理的條件有關明年台灣參與APEC各種可能的情境與狀況本會會協助主管機關審慎評估及妥善因應堅定我國作為APEC正式成員的地位與尊嚴三 審慎應對陸方經濟脅迫強化兩岸經貿的風險控管"},{"start":2562.216,"end":2586.344,"text":"中共長期將對台的拉打軟硬兩手策略將經貿手段武器化並作為對台統戰分化的工具操作兩岸融合發展的措施推出所謂的會台或是補助政策持續我企業人才及資金企圖以達成處容處統的政治目的"},{"start":2587.014,"end":2607.774,"text":"政府將審慎評估並妥善應處中共對我經貿統戰滲透及經濟脅迫本於強本固台風險管理的原則就兩岸經貿進行必要有序有策略的結構調整強化兩岸經貿風險管控並持續掌握陸方經貿政策對台商投資影響"},{"start":2609.162,"end":2631.682,"text":"配合相關主管機關的政策作為提供台商諮詢輔導服務以協助我業者加以因應第四我們也會持續滾動兩岸的交流管理作為以確保國家安全利益以人民福祉我們會支持推動兩岸健康有序的交流"},{"start":2632.786,"end":2647.943,"text":"並配合整體形勢及兩岸關係的變化滾動 調整 入籍人士申請來台 試遊循序進行的推動兩岸人員的往來以及經貿互動及教育文化各項的交流活動"},{"start":2649.349,"end":2671.695,"text":"本會要重申我們一向正面看待兩岸的良性交流與互動主張兩岸交流應該合於法令規範將持續會同相關主管機關完善兩岸交流事務管理也會適時檢討並精進兩岸人員往來的風險控管強化安全機制以應取措施"},{"start":2672.415,"end":2693.357,"text":"避免受到中共政治的干預 衍生國安風險讓兩岸交流可以在保障台灣社會安全的前提下穩健進行五 嚴疫反制中共懲毒22條跨國鎮壓的恫嚇國人的操作中共對台完全不具"},{"start":2694.685,"end":2716.48,"text":"司法管轄前其所謂的法律與規範對國人毫無拘束力中共踐踏以規則為基礎的國際秩序台灣並非是中共跨國鎮壓的唯一受害者本會將配合我們的外交部門與國際友門共同合作研議針對中國的跨國鎮壓"},{"start":2720.483,"end":2735.255,"text":"提出反制的作為促請國際社會拒絕承認其對我國人的通緝或懸賞之效力也絕對不會配合中共濫用全球邪氣的制度"},{"start":2736.089,"end":2756.783,"text":"第四 強化兩岸資訊的互通分享台灣民主多元的價值為增進中國大陸民眾對兩岸關係對台灣社會發展的現況認識與了解本會會透過多元管道向中國大陸傳遞台灣民主法治科技生活等人文"},{"start":2757.864,"end":2772.783,"text":"多方面的活力與創新分享台灣文化的軟實力同時辦理兩岸青年學生公民以及新聞研習等活動來促進兩岸青年相互的理解"},{"start":2773.684,"end":2799.487,"text":"七 逐步完善對港澳的安全管理機制維護國家安全與民眾福祉鑑於近年來港澳情勢變化快速本會持續檢視港澳相關法規健全安全管理規範並協助各主管機關強化涉入之港澳金流人流來台相關管理措施及國安審查另外"},{"start":2800.1,"end":2820.715,"text":"本會也會會同內政部移民署通盤檢視港澳人士來台定居留的制度強化安全管理機制以因應中共對港澳的影響以控制及對港澳居民結構性的改變因而對台灣整體國安及社會的危害捷運"},{"start":2822.528,"end":2847.679,"text":"賴總統已經日前強調堅定反兵吞反侵略反對中共推進統一我們也期待北京當局要體現大國責任放棄以武力改變台海現狀彰顯兩岸應該追求和平的精神本會要再次呼籲陸方正視中華民國與中華人民共和國"},{"start":2849.308,"end":2866.419,"text":"互不隸屬的客觀事實與台海現狀以務實理性的態度與台灣人民選合法政府進行對話共同承擔台海及區域的和平責任 以上報告敬請各位委員指教 謝謝大家謝謝邱主委的報告 接下來我們請海基會的吳豐山董事長報告"},{"start":2895.452,"end":2922.381,"text":"主席各位委員海基會成立民國80年3月是一個由政府委託執行公權力的中介角色的民間機構對岸在同年12月成立海協會成為海基會互動的窗口很扼要的說海基會的工作就是交流跟對話"},{"start":2924.707,"end":2950.812,"text":"就交流而言 兩岸人民交流所衍生的事物樣態還多 舉凡群人返鄉出入境 人身安全 隨利財政經貿糾紛 漁市糾紛 犯罪防治 房屋車簽補償房屋土地遭佔用 債務繼承 清錢糾紛"},{"start":2954.762,"end":2982.857,"text":"訴訟執行沒有結果的調查還有親人沉默狀況的調查可以說不遺而主此外我們還對台商跟台商的子女做了很多服務民國82年兩會曾經商定兩會聯繫以會談制度誰一直到今天"},{"start":2983.786,"end":3013.469,"text":"我们都根据这样的协议持续发行给海协会如果从本会成立开始算起我们累计的案件处理两岸人民交流事务所衍生的这个案件已经超过900万件只去年民国113年就累计了30万4千多件"},{"start":3014.745,"end":3028.815,"text":"今年的1月到10月我們已經處理超過20萬件因此外界好像有人誤解海基會的工作已經中斷這個是不是事實各位委員交流沒有中斷中斷的是對話對話中斷是2016年蔡英文總統上台之後對岸"},{"start":3046.081,"end":3074.041,"text":"這個認為新政府沒有承認九二共識所以片面終止對話賴總統在去年就職的時候明確表示希望兩岸以對話取代對抗以交流取代圍堵增進合作本局根據這個指示在過去一年當中多方努力恢復對話可是對岸以承認九二共識為前提"},{"start":3074.912,"end":3103.019,"text":"一直到今天都不開啟恢復對話的大門海基會是中華民國的海基會海基會接受政府委託辦事當然在處理兩岸事務上必須跟政府的政策同一步調這一點請各位委員瞭解據本人確知在處理兩岸關係上賴總統一直到今天善意不變"},{"start":3104.463,"end":3128.967,"text":"希望兩岸和平發展的政策不變主席 各位委員依照海紀委的組織章程會內的事務由秘書長重禮所以我請求主席是不是同意由羅秘書長向各位做口頭報告那這樣子會比較詳盡而且對各位也比較尊重"},{"start":3130.767,"end":3134.229,"text":"主席及各位委員那向委員會報告今年度從1月到10月底為止海基會的相關業務報告"},{"start":3157.591,"end":3182.609,"text":"那海基會的工作主要分成幾個部分第一個我們有個法律處是負責所有文書驗證還有司法文書送達以及共同打共同打擊犯罪相關協議的執行那在過去今年到10月為止我們相關的作業其中第一個我們一共在"},{"start":3183.752,"end":3204.902,"text":"今年目前為止文書驗證今年一共有十一萬五千多件在進行在這是法律處的部分那法律處我們同時也關心陸配和兩岸親子互動產生的各種問題那這裡我們幫他協助這個辦理"},{"start":3208.339,"end":3237.857,"text":"大陸戶籍註銷的認證今年辦了9000多件那我們同時分別在春節中秋節以及國慶等等活動我們邀請陸配的家屬親屬一起展開座談和活動那第二塊是關於旅行業務以及人身安全和救援那國人在中國大陸旅行或是工作過程中如果發生了人身安全需要協助的那海基會都會積極提供協助"},{"start":3239.093,"end":3266.534,"text":"在今年度到10月為止我們透過小三通 金門的小三通協助國人在大陸發生事故要需要緊急回臺就醫一共有13件那我們協助大陸的人士在臺灣他如果遺失證件或是他證件遇期他要回到中國去的時候沒有辦法承行有還機會協助"},{"start":3268.168,"end":3296.61,"text":"我們今年辦了352件那協助國人如果到中國大陸失聯失蹤的案件有89案有90個人協助中國大陸的居民他如果來到台灣需要緊急事故來到台灣那我們協助有38案有71人臨時緊急需要來到台灣那另外比較特別的是我們也協助"},{"start":3297.537,"end":3313.721,"text":"台灣過去的台商到中國經商多年之後滯留中國那這樣案件目前今年有辦了89案89件那這是有關旅行及人身安全就業務這項業務海基會文教處在負責那第三個海基會的綜合處處理有關這各種"},{"start":3320.979,"end":3340.011,"text":"國際兩岸和中國大陸內部政經社會情勢的變化我們有海際會的顧問舉辦各項座談在今年為止我們一共辦了12場內部的座談以及27篇的研析專題那對外聯繫部分在國會服務這邊今年有160件的相關服務案件"},{"start":3340.936,"end":3357.079,"text":"那同時我們也邀請包含學術學校團體如果有需要進行兩岸相關課程以及各團體參訪海基會在今年到目前為止有29場有942人來海基會參與的座談以及參觀在經貿的業務部分就台商業務部分我們的經貿處跟中國大陸一共有154個"},{"start":3371.024,"end":3400.605,"text":"各地的台商協會有建立聯繫管道他們有什麼需求或是我們有什麼事項透過他們來協助我們會跟這154個在各地的台商協會來進行聯繫那今年我們分別在秋節春節以及端午節都辦理座談會來邀請這個經濟部以及相關單位跟台商來進行這個了解"},{"start":3401.564,"end":3428.782,"text":"那有關台商子女的部分今年一月份我們首次辦了台商子女的國小的夏令營那以及國中高中的探索營在今年的冬冬寒假的時候那原本其實每一年夏春暑假的時候夏天的時候我們會辦夏令營那今年因為預算刪減所以今年沒辦法舉辦所以今年停辦一年但是"},{"start":3429.775,"end":3459.076,"text":"我們仍然透過三個台商學校跟他們進行合作在今年第二季的時候有東莞的台商學校回到台灣有六十幾人進行九天八夜的環島那海基會也來協助他們舉辦這活動那以及在暑假的時候有包含東莞台校華東台校還有上海台校他們學生回到台灣返鄉"},{"start":3459.983,"end":3481.076,"text":"反台暑假授課那海基會也透過他們回來台灣的時候來跟他們進行這個活動的規劃和參與那在台灣每一學期大概有1000出頭的交換生會在台灣那海基會在每一學期每一批這個大陸的交換生來到台灣"},{"start":3481.874,"end":3507.216,"text":"我們會跟主要主辦的學校以及海基會直接規劃相關的活動邀請來臺灣交換的大陸學生更加認識臺灣那這個活動我們持續在舉辦中那以上是有關於比較具體相關海基會各項接受陸委會委託執行兩岸交流服務的工作內容報告以上請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":3510.771,"end":3538.138,"text":"謝謝羅文嘉副董事長那現在進行答詢委員質詢前原例座以下幾點宣告第一本會委員發言時間5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記第二本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3542.63,"end":3560.963,"text":"那接下來進行答詢請登記第一位的張宏祿委員發言我先請邱主委有請邱主委張委員早"},{"start":3569.028,"end":3597.138,"text":"主委我剛看你的報告裡面你就說中共一直在國際宣傳一中原則然後推進統一然後宣揚統一之後的好處對不對我們看到的事實也是如此對不對是那我想請問一下如果是外國人要來台灣不管是觀光旅遊或是恰公他拿中國的簽證可以來台灣嗎"},{"start":3599.965,"end":3623.664,"text":"我們是接受的包括現在因為中國大陸還不願意讓他的從中國大陸人到台灣來我們還在進行小兩會的協商但是我們操之在我的部分從第三國第三地來的中國大陸籍的他在海外有不是我是說外國人"},{"start":3624.966,"end":3642.362,"text":"外國人 外國人拿中國的證件不具有中國身份的人 比如說我是當然歡迎啊 外國人到台灣的人當然歡迎啊我是單純的 比如說我是單純的加拿大人能夠拿中國的簽證可以來台灣嗎"},{"start":3643.359,"end":3655.594,"text":"那他的身份是沒有啊那當然不行喔因為他必須要以外國人的身份來台灣如果說是要有中國大陸的身份我們有一定的我不是講中國的身份喔我不是講我單純的外國人"},{"start":3661.577,"end":3674.505,"text":"他沒有中國的身份 他拿中國的簽證可以來台灣嗎拿中國的簽證怎麼來台灣呢可不可以啦 你就回到不行不行嘛 你就回到我不行就對了這就不行啦 對不對當然 當然對不對 這一個那我們在台灣在跟美國是不是還在談關稅是 目前還在進行是嘛 也不是跟中國談吧對不對"},{"start":3690.804,"end":3705.469,"text":"這個是很明顯的中國他沒有管轄到台灣台灣是一個獨立的主體我們有人民土地政府主權我們有自己的護照我們跟中國在談我們不跟中國我們跟美國在談關稅對不對我國是主權的獨立國家我們行使排他性的管轄權沒錯"},{"start":3717.848,"end":3743.93,"text":"中國他雖然一直在國際上推一中但現在大家也都知道我為什麼要特別這樣問人家加拿大就回答他你跟我講一中我拿你的簽證我就不能去台灣這全部人全世界都知道一個最簡單的所以我要請教主委如果他都一直在講一中還有一中各表嗎"},{"start":3746.141,"end":3757.774,"text":"我想從2019年元月二號習五條已經重新定義九二共識兩樣同屬於中共某國家統一統一在一國兩制台灣方案"},{"start":3758.638,"end":3787.126,"text":"之後 我想在中國所提出來的九二共識跟一中原則裡面就沒有中華民國生存的空間了沒有嘛 對不對所以九二共識就沒了嘛所謂九二共識 一個中國原則沒有個表了可以說是三位一體的對財政策對嘛 已經 九二共識已經變位了吧對不對 這個已經酸掉了吧超生啊啦"},{"start":3787.977,"end":3811.382,"text":"跟原來的不是原汁原味嘛對不對是不是這樣是好所以其實很多事情講清楚我們用護照用關稅大家都非常清楚就不用特別再去講了是台灣就是一個主權的國家那中國還是一天到晚吃我們豆腐對不對我不知道主委你現在知不知道有一個高德地圖"},{"start":3812.952,"end":3818.043,"text":"你知道 他是到處矮化台灣台灣變成他的台灣神"},{"start":3820.45,"end":3844.801,"text":"我想我們在台灣都會用GPS那中國因為它有不同的系統用高德系統你知不知道有這個地圖有 我們知道你知道嘛那你知道現在有很多人在台灣在網路上在什麼的在替中國在宣傳這個地圖好用這個怎麼樣你知不知道這些事情"},{"start":3845.541,"end":3873.791,"text":"我想導航的系統是不是要輸入我們國人的個資使用中國製的APP我也呼籲國人要注意治安的風險它甚至會帶來國安的風險所以我想我們的有關機關包括速發部也應該向我們大眾來說明使用這類的中共製的APP它可能帶來治安跟國安的風險"},{"start":3875.432,"end":3894.934,"text":"應該跟國人來說明除了資安跟國安的風險你個人的資安那還有國安你也說了所以像這種情況之下我們陸委會你會樂見他在台灣很多人在這邊推廣這個高德地圖嗎"},{"start":3895.751,"end":3914.468,"text":"当然不乐见而且我们虽然是一个自由的国家但这侵害台湾主权的我们能不能跨部会包括去跟NCC去跟你讲像这种高德地图这种的一直矮化台湾的我们不能屏蔽它吗"},{"start":3915.382,"end":3939.147,"text":"是 我想我們對於國人使用這個陸方鎖這個APP在使用這些通常都有委員講的那個問題那我們首先就是用科學的方式來檢視這些APP可能帶來的相關的風險那委員給我們一段時間我們來檢視好 謝謝"},{"start":3948.69,"end":3966.127,"text":"好謝謝張宏祿委員接下來我們請張志榮委員發言好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員早有請陸委會邱垂政主委請邱主委總委好"},{"start":3970.63,"end":3985.9,"text":"主委好 主委今天自由時報頭版不知道你有沒有看到他上面特別寫這個中國紅色通緝沈伯陽委員賴清德總統呼籲韓國瑜院長挺身護國會尊嚴"},{"start":3988.39,"end":4006.013,"text":"我想這番言論讓很多人來質疑究竟賴總統是在關心我們國人還是立委的人身安全還是在轉移焦點推卸政治責任因為我們都知道兩岸跟外交的議題跟政策皆是由總統或是行政院主導"},{"start":4007.074,"end":4024.606,"text":"對岸啟動調查或是通緝第一個該挺身而出的應該是總統本人跟行政院等等主管機關而不是主持議事職責中立的國會的這個議長韓國瑜院長我想要先請教主委這是立法院可以管的嗎"},{"start":4026.231,"end":4052.787,"text":"跟委員報告對於這個典型的跨國鎮壓我想他除了針對省委員之外其實他的目的是要針對所有台灣民眾的集體的脅迫對於跨國鎮壓我覺得我們要不分朝野我只是請教說你覺得認為這個是立法院可以管的嗎我覺得就是我們要譴責要共同譴責"},{"start":4054.062,"end":4071.768,"text":"因為他這個跨國鎮壓他的目的在於恫嚇及分化我們內部那我們就是不要讓他得逞我們要更團結我們面對挑戰我們更有韌性來回擊他好 謝謝主委這等一下我要問的問題這次我們看到這些事件產生各部會"},{"start":4073.128,"end":4101.49,"text":"我認為都沒有明確的發言對策以及具體做法等一下我要來就教我們的主委其實剛剛賴總統講的要挺身護國會尊嚴什麼是國會尊嚴我這邊跟主委報告當立法院他是立法權立法院在修法要求讓國軍加薪因為現在國軍人數很少要國軍加薪的時候結果我們行政院居然沒有編列相對的預算"},{"start":4102.952,"end":4110.466,"text":"當立法院在幫警消及公教人員保障他們未來的退休權益 退休金的時候這個行政院沒有編列預算"},{"start":4111.756,"end":4133.63,"text":"結果現在賴總統遇到事情了以後才說要企圖把這個行政權還有外交他的這些權責要推給立法院說這個就是立法院要來維護國會尊嚴所以這個很明顯就是毀憲亂政執政失能的一個非常重要的一個問題這不僅讓我想到當時賴總統"},{"start":4137.432,"end":4160.7,"text":"他去我們台灣這個中南部在尤其南部在救災的時候洪水跟淤泥淹沒了我們很多的家園的家鄉的時候他明明就是三軍統帥結果他不讓國軍到民眾的家裡去清淤他說你們自己組成一個這個團體你們自己去清淤這樣就好了或者是當民眾的頂樓的時候受損的時候"},{"start":4162.396,"end":4189.583,"text":"那個民眾跟他拜託說賴總統你是不是可以請國軍還是一些專業人士幫我們在修屋頂的時候結果賴總統說你可以自己爬你可以自己爬爬到屋頂去修然後發生了那麼多的憾事結果現在立法院有委員遭受通緝現在說立法院韓院長你可以自己出來自己聲援自己維護國會尊嚴嗎這樣做法不是就是一樣的做法嗎所以本席非常不能接受這樣的做法"},{"start":4190.503,"end":4202.292,"text":"第二個問題我現在想要請教主委的是請問發生這件事情的時候賴總統有沒有下令我們陸委會有要做什麼樣的事情你們有沒有跟陸方針對這樣的事情有去做任何的溝通來請說明跟張委員報告這個事情除了對有沒有溝通過都有只是他對不管是外交部門對陸委會都有積極的作為"},{"start":4218.874,"end":4233.8,"text":"請明確的表示我們除了要讓國人安心放心強調中共的跨境鎮壓對我國沒有管轄權我們國人絕對不受到拘束主委我的問題是你們如何努力來維護國家的安全去跟對岸去做溝通你們溝通了幾次可不可以明確回應賴總統請你溝通了嗎那你們溝通了去溝通了幾次"},{"start":4243.018,"end":4250.262,"text":"我們不斷的透過我們各種的多元管道對他們都很清楚我們的立場他這種跨境的打壓對於我們國人安全上面的恫嚇以及分化我們內部我們不會讓他得逞的我們反而要更團結委員 這個事情我們應該從頭抵抗團結一心共同來譴責中共的跨境施壓"},{"start":4270.05,"end":4295.265,"text":"所以我覺得委員你應該會站在我們這邊他這個跨境鎮壓的對象還針對國軍官兵 資通電軍 檢察官沒有 所以我要請教為什麼今天要請教陸委會的問題陸委會每年有200多個編制緣和一年也有10億的經費人民想要的是陸委會有明確的作為你們的plan A plan B plan C是什麼你們具體作為到底在哪裡"},{"start":4296.025,"end":4301.367,"text":"你們有沒有去溝通你們具體作為到底在哪裡我們該溝通的會溝通你們溝通了幾次我們在我們的各種的管道上我們該講的要講他們也很清楚我們的訴求就像你剛剛講的不要用喊話來代替對話你們到底溝通了幾次"},{"start":4314.383,"end":4332.502,"text":"我們覺得他對於我們這樣的一種跨境鎮壓我們首先要反鎮壓他的目的在侵略我們我們要反侵略 反併吞這個要自由活的意思 主委問題是你們從這個事情發生到現在你們跟對岸有沒有做溝通賴總統有沒有要求你們要去溝通你們溝通了幾次"},{"start":4333.618,"end":4351.863,"text":"我們有做這個溝通溝通解釋我們有我們不只多少次的向對岸去提出我們的嚴正聲明我想委員我們現在應該是團結一心我們絕對是團結一心可是我們也要入委會發展它的功能我們要行政單位各部會"},{"start":4352.743,"end":4376.997,"text":"要有具體的作為我們會透過各種溝通聯繫的機制向對岸表達你們到底有沒有聯繫的機制主委為什麼我今天會請教你這個問題因為其實就您商量一年多來了這一年多來你們到底有沒有辦法跟對岸溝通的機制有沒有跟中方嚴厲表證立場跟抗議你們到底是怎麼溝通我想國人想要了解的是這個狀態你們怎麼溝通的"},{"start":4378.888,"end":4406.302,"text":"跟委員報告真的是像你講的用喊話來代替對話嗎我們是過去既有的溝通聯繫機制我們不管是兩岸協議的機制雙方既有的機制我們都細心地在維護所以我剛剛議員問你說賴總統有沒有請你如果上面的人就要你不要溝通當然你現在都是我們努力溝通也要表達我們嚴正的立場你們如何溝通 溝通了幾次你們最高的溝通的成績到哪裡"},{"start":4407.563,"end":4424.2,"text":"我想我們各種的溝通都在努力我們嚴正立場也在表達謝謝主委這件事情我相信我們會繼續追希望說你們好好來做然後後續給我們一個完整的說明好不好謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝張志倫委員的質詢接下來請王美惠委員發言"},{"start":4439.147,"end":4441.988,"text":"主席 我們請主委有請邱主委黃委員好主委 各位主委本來不想這裡有幾個問題要跟你談到最主要是我們剛才委員所問的在這裡本身要跟你談到一個問題就是"},{"start":4467.045,"end":4469.806,"text":"你保養他對的人他對的人他是中華民國台灣人是不是還是阿強仔的人他是我們這裡的人我們這裡對我們中華民國台灣人中華民國嘛阿強仔 人家說阿強仔都對的人"},{"start":4492.742,"end":4496.566,"text":"如果中國人來臺灣,他都放什麼護照來臺灣,探親他們會拿著一定要申請我們的入臺證那通常他們也會,雖然有大公證主委沒講過嘛主委沒講過嘛在這裡本身要來清告一下"},{"start":4514.4,"end":4520.845,"text":"你覺得李博洋 他說沈博洋 不好意思沈博洋說要抓他有國家分類法 他違反了他是 他是分類什麼高雄報告"},{"start":4534.073,"end":4559.626,"text":"我個人認為 省委員都在...我不是要問你個人啦你站在那裡就是代表國家的議員你個人我現在要問國家的想法啦是 教委員報告我覺得省委員並沒有去違反我們中華民國什麼法律中共他的法律在台灣完全沒有所謂的管轄權"},{"start":4562.217,"end":4571.637,"text":"對台灣人完全沒有拘束力不僅是省委員在台灣的任何人都可以不受到中共的法律的管轄但是"},{"start":4572.438,"end":4584.88,"text":"中共用這種跨境鎮壓它的目的在於恫嚇我們國人以及在分化我們國人那所以我們希望國人能夠團結一致譴責這種跨境鎮壓來 主委在這裡先問一下這個22條裡面跨國的鎮壓裡面你所了解待會國家會符合它"},{"start":4600.123,"end":4604.867,"text":"會跟合作來審某樣嗎來 你回答一下是 高委員報告我們有看了所謂的懲毒二十二條這個懲毒二十二條啊都是你以為我問你以為你這樣回答就好到目前為止你說了解我們認為中國雖然跟六十幾個國家遷渡引渡協議但是過去我們國際上有所謂的政治犯良心犯"},{"start":4629.656,"end":4637.488,"text":"不引渡我想相關的國家應該不會去執行這個中共的引渡的要求"},{"start":4638.171,"end":4659.099,"text":"通常國際上是需要 兩方都要有犯罪才會去引渡中國這個對於政治的主張對於言論主張的打壓跟涉陷這樣主委 你會回答嗎我替沈柏洋反映了包括你現在全世界多少人可以配合 中共來抓沈柏洋的時候到你不成為之 你不知道"},{"start":4667.142,"end":4669.284,"text":"所以這是非常危險的所以在人民身保養到不成為止我叫不讓人出門如果出國去就好了不會啦自由民主的國家我想沒有問題我知道啦像美國也不會啦像日本也不會啦同時國際形象這國家都不會"},{"start":4697.026,"end":4701.367,"text":"因為在這我還要說我們這個問題在這段時間啊剛才我們有同事說說我們的總統讓我們的院長出來相反一下我覺得也沒什麼啊因為不管帶一棟做我們立法院的院長畢竟他是我們的大家庭我們基中有委員"},{"start":4725.755,"end":4727.116,"text":"最近什麼問題應該是都要寫完的以我的認定啦因為說實在他畢竟是中華民國立法院的院長啊沒有我當上韓院長我們不可以不叫他院長"},{"start":4744.793,"end":4746.855,"text":"畢竟他當選他是我們的院長啊他要照顧我們每一個委員啊這個事件我們應該要不分朝野團結一心 一致對外"},{"start":4757.489,"end":4759.891,"text":"因為我覺得這個問題 現在我相信這幾檔都還沒跟阿強 晚間也還沒吐槽因為大家都生活在這個自由民主的國家 都希望我們的國家"},{"start":4778.884,"end":4784.468,"text":"更安全更安全更好所以主委在這個氛圍當中你知不知道有很多人去觀賞去美酒觀賞有很多台灣人去的你知不知道了解了解嗎是那你有了解他們廟裡面的贓錢有什麼嗎你有了解嗎你沒了解"},{"start":4809.377,"end":4815.04,"text":"來 主委你看一下堅決擁護中國共產黨你看"},{"start":4821.07,"end":4833.515,"text":"所以你要去祕書要去拜拜的時候 說實在信用沒有分散啦 大家都互相尊重啦信基督教我們也要尊重 信媽祖我們也要尊重 只是你看他裡面的長城"},{"start":4841.979,"end":4863.795,"text":"我們中華民國 台灣的廟口 這就贊成說他要效忠中華民國的台灣 哈主委是 委員 你指出這個證據非常重要證明這個中共是一個無神論你現在覺得同樣嗎沒有 我們知道中共是沒有宗教自由的國家"},{"start":4864.929,"end":4876.812,"text":"尤其各種宗教都要在統戰部的宗教師管理所以他就把宗教當成一個統戰的工具所以他們要效忠中國共產黨的領導統戰要怎麼去做啦像我現在在裡面的時候你才知道一間一間在外面二空二數里有十八十六間啦"},{"start":4887.595,"end":4891.841,"text":"我們會加強宣導讓國人了解 賦路參加這個宗教的交流主委 我在這裡跟你說我們不是在耍嘴皮"},{"start":4904.259,"end":4907.681,"text":"是要如何讓中華民國的台灣保護好跟我們的背景 要出國也好 在台灣也好可以更加保護他們安全 這是最重要的這是我們職責所在跟議長 因為我這陣子的時間夠了我還有後續 有幾條問題要先 麻煩蘇美若回答一下 議長是 好 根本就預言"},{"start":4932.991,"end":4936.233,"text":"謝謝王美惠召委 接下來請徐宇甄委員發言謝謝主席 我們請我們的陸委會邱主委有請邱主委"},{"start":4950.899,"end":4978.711,"text":"邱主委好邱主委我想昨天我們賴清德總統喊話韓國瑜院長應該要聲援沈博洋那一時之間其實我們都有點錯亂怎麼會現任的總統對於這樣的兩岸事務沒有擔當而是要立法院的院長出來解決是不是代表說現在的總統他沒有能力解決兩岸的問題所以要"},{"start":4979.495,"end":5008.109,"text":"韓國瑜院長出來處理呢是 跟委員報告我想總統的意思是因為要團結國人的意志來共同反對中國這種跨境鎮壓不管是對我們國會議員還是對國人的恫嚇與分化我們應該團結一致 不分朝野一般人的感受不是這樣所以我在這邊有個建議其實我們在立法院有可以成立一個叫立法院兩岸事務因應對策小組"},{"start":5009.228,"end":5033.195,"text":"來去因應像這樣的事情所以那是由誰擔任召集人是由韓國瑜院長擔任召集人那既然行政體系沒有辦法賴清德總統覺得他沒辦法做到那我們是不是可以來成立一個立法院兩岸事務因應對策小組來去因應這相關的事宜呢我們尊重貴院的決定所以主委也贊成囉"},{"start":5033.925,"end":5039.238,"text":"也贊成這樣的兩岸事務其實是可以由立法院這邊來行政體系做不好所以由立法院來處理是這樣嗎我想大院是"},{"start":5044.215,"end":5068.352,"text":"最主要的民意代表機關如果不分朝野團結一致來一致對外兩岸的事務賴清德總統沒有辦法處理所以交由立法院來處理要不然怎麼會第一時間是喊話我們韓國瑜院長要出來因為沈委員是大院的委員沈委員是不是中華民國的國民中華民國的總統是誰"},{"start":5072.781,"end":5099.932,"text":"我們也強調既然主委也同意我們也希望雖然今天針對省委員其實他是對全體國民的集體脅迫如果陸委會也覺得說應該目前你們也沒辦法處理行政體制沒辦法處理那就由我們立法院是不是來處理那當然接下來要請教的是陸委會的主委就是明年的APEC比較特別它會在大陸的深圳舉行"},{"start":5101.209,"end":5126.409,"text":"那其實現在它已經也這個北京方面也公開宣示說必須接受一中原則作為前提那這是過去從來沒有出現過的爭執框架意味著台灣如果接受就要在國際場合放棄主權那如果拒絕就可能遭到中國已主辦方的身份直接封殺而且明年的這個APEC的深圳在深圳舉行我方"},{"start":5127.75,"end":5132.596,"text":"之前你們的副主委有開一個記者會說會努力堅守台灣的會員國地位與尊嚴"},{"start":5135.117,"end":5157.308,"text":"那APEC當然不是只是一個經濟平台也是一個外交舞台所以每一次的與會其實都是對台灣尊嚴的考驗但是光是說堅守尊嚴容易真正做到卻很難所以請教邱主委針對陸方所提出的一中原則的前提陸委會是不是已經準備好了是不是有掌握中方的盤算跟紅線"},{"start":5159.107,"end":5172.836,"text":"跟委員報告我們跟中國大陸都是APEC的正式會員過去APEC的場域不存在中共所謂的一中原則所以面對這樣的無理打壓跟他過去"},{"start":5174.181,"end":5177.763,"text":"要中國來舉辦2026年的EPIC他說對所有的會員國都不歧視原則這部分我知道但我的意思是我們一直講說我們堅守尊嚴這是必要的但是作為是什麼我現在要請教您"},{"start":5191.469,"end":5200.456,"text":"目前因為明年度的在深圳的EPIC還有很多的不確定性那我們會協助主管機關做好各種審慎評估我們都有在為未來做審慎評估那你們有沒有針對最壞情境的狀況之下實施Plan B的計畫呢"},{"start":5210.703,"end":5217.689,"text":"是 我們都不排除 我們都會審慎評估我想現在已經向美國國務院就向中國表達沒有所謂的這個一中原則來處理我們的參與我想邱主委我們要的是一個清楚的答覆而不是像這樣這個很空泛的一個政治的這個發言我覺得陸委會既然針對這個算是明年的事情"},{"start":5234.437,"end":5245.205,"text":"可是這個姿勢體大非常的重要所以陸委會應該要提前因應不管是跟我們其他各部會大家共同來研商我們針對這樣的問題要如何解決我們已經提起因應了當然在103年的時候APEC也在北京舉行那當時呢中方沒有依慣例派出特使來遞送我們的邀請函而是由國台辦的副主任當時的龔清蓋副主任出面那這樣的做法這個梁文傑副主委說這個"},{"start":5265.129,"end":5282.506,"text":"103年的做法是矮化我們中方的表現那明年會在深圳舉行那如果到時候他們所派第一個也沒有派特使第二個可能比這個台辦副主任更低的層級來去遞送這個邀請函請問要怎麼回應"},{"start":5285.558,"end":5308.295,"text":"我想必須依照國際慣例過去APEC的一些慣例來向我方遞出邀請函但103年的時候就沒有嘛103年的時候有國台辦的副主任那現在請教如果這個時候他們給的成績可能更低可能連國台辦的副主任都沒有也沒有特使的狀況之下你是不是已經跟外交部協調訂出我方對於對方遞送這個邀請函的成績"},{"start":5313.72,"end":5317.402,"text":"稱為會議接待跟代表安排的一個底線呢是我們會努力爭取我們參與以及剛剛說的必須要來跟我們遞件符合過去APEC沒有這樣的一個做法的話那到底請問主委他們來的時候如果層級更低的話你們是接還是不接這個就是違反他過去主辦"},{"start":5339.891,"end":5362.857,"text":"這個時候對國際社會所說不歧視原則的違反對那您是接還是不接那個還沒有發生的問題我們會我們知道委員的意思面對對你要去設想所有的狀況你不可能是發生之後然後到時候才說好我接或不接現在你就要設想到底如果這樣的狀況我要怎麼做那樣的狀況我要怎麼做嘛對不對是"},{"start":5363.257,"end":5366.902,"text":"我們當然跟委員的立場一樣會堅定這個我們的國家的立場跟我們參加國際主委我只是要提醒你的就是說堅守地位跟尊嚴絕對不是口號一定要有作為那所謂的作為你們一定要審慎的評估完善才不會去這個"},{"start":5383.186,"end":5399.279,"text":"我們的主權尊嚴的部分絕對不容踐踏那這也是陸委會必須要審慎去評估否則還需要陸委會做什麼是我們會從相關主管機關不要認為時間還早時間很快就到了是了解 一定要提前的因好嗎謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝徐宇甄委員接下來我們請牛許廷文發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5413.601,"end":5435.387,"text":"邱主委有請請邱主委劉委好主委早安政治表態不如解決方法大家今天包含媒體朋友大家都很關心這個沈伯央委員遇到了這樣子的一個威脅是我是覺得有一點為他感到不止因為都已經被威脅確實是遇到了一些危險一些困難"},{"start":5436.297,"end":5454.519,"text":"在國內還要被你們這樣消費我是覺得很糟糕啦我的意思是說講這個事情我請問邱主委今天大家講說我們一起聲援他改變了聊什麼現實嗎最主要是要讓老共的跨境鎮壓沒有效果他這個跨境鎮壓就是在恫嚇你以及分化我們國內的團結"},{"start":5456.127,"end":5477.238,"text":"跨境鎮壓對不對如果大家講了一致的這個宣示我們當然要保護他嘛對不對大家都中華民國國民對不對不管他是不是立法委員我們都不希望中華民國國民受到威脅但我們這樣講又怎麼樣呢他具體來講他會改變什麼你有多大的把握他會具體的改變一些現狀跟狀況還是只是純粹國內的政治考量你不希望造成國內的恐慌"},{"start":5477.984,"end":5507.553,"text":"他就是要製造我們的恫嚇我們跟分化我們那我們反而面對這個挑戰每一次的挑戰我們都把它轉換為我們台灣韌性的提升他的恫嚇讓我們更團結所以到最後還是要考國內政治的考量還是大過一屆所以我講你不要消費人家好沒關係啦這個對兩岸關係也很不好兩岸關係也很不好我們待會都會在這個題目裡面去做討論嘛是本期的主張是這樣的具體的保護啊比起立場的表述它一定更有意義嘛"},{"start":5509.234,"end":5534.697,"text":"現在沈博洋委員遇到這樣的狀況全世界各地他還剩哪些國家可以去你們有沒有清單跟委員報告我們看到中共跟其他六十幾個國家有簽引渡協議的國家我想這裡面絕大部分的特別是民主國家他不會再引渡這個政治犯良心犯我們沈博洋委員他能不能去越南"},{"start":5536.86,"end":5553.431,"text":"你有辦法把握講嗎我想我們過去也說跟中國大陸關係比較密切比較密切容易受到中國大陸影響的國家但是風險當然會比較高對啊我現在就要問風險清單嘛所以他能不能去越南他能不能去柬埔寨我想行前你會不會建議他不要去"},{"start":5554.273,"end":5583.172,"text":"我們現在行前要審慎評估啦行前審慎評估好 他能不能去土耳其我想我們的外交部門也會積極的去嗆各國他安全的不僅是沈伯央位置我們國人都一樣今天大家要聽到的其實是這樣嘛也就是說我們基於保護他安全的實際作為是什麼比如說我剛問他能不能去越南你講越南什麼樣什麼樣的關係我不建議他去可能會有危險對不對大家聽到才安心嘛他能不能去土耳其他能不能去白俄羅斯"},{"start":5584.093,"end":5612.288,"text":"他能不能去塔吉克他能不能去摩洛哥或埃及就這些東西才是大家要聽到的對不對 你只講民主國家民主國家他都可以去這些都有一點尷尬這些具體的事我想我們外交部門都在積極的在協助畢竟他是我們的國會議員那去做參訪我想我們外交部門都會來積極協助不僅是省委員一些被這個成都22條"},{"start":5614.19,"end":5637.49,"text":"這個已經鎖定的這些對象或是名單裡面的人我們都一樣要保護他們你們也有一個相對的風險控管的名單嘛也就是說可能被對岸列為接下一段下一階段目標的各種中華民國國民的名單有嗎有多少人在裡面啊你們是評估啊跟委員報告齁這個我們說我們國人赴各國去齁"},{"start":5639.461,"end":5660.266,"text":"從結果論來看會配合中共引渡政治犯的國家他應該案例極少極少我跟你講總統昨天出來開了記者會然後現在大家今天在那邊這邊說你竟然是要要求韓國瑜院長表態那重點不在這裡嘛總統出來開記者會講說我們已經把所有相對紅燈危險黃燈危險相對安全的國家我已經做了做了明確的區分"},{"start":5660.734,"end":5676.207,"text":"我們針對接下來中華民國國民哪一些人可能也會遇到這樣的狀況我名單有掌握有做預警這叫安定國人這叫方法結果我們的政府沒有提出任何安定的具體方法然後搞政治表態主委你覺得這樣是最好的方式嗎"},{"start":5677.025,"end":5693.179,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得第一時間國人要團結一心一致對外這個對老共的這個回擊是最有利我們不接受你跨境鎮壓對於我們的恫嚇分化你的具體的做法就是最明確的宣示嘛"},{"start":5693.579,"end":5711.062,"text":"你的這樣的做法出來之後國人我相信大家都會支持也才會團結結果你沒有第一時間端出方法你反而第一時間要大家做政治表態這不叫解決問題這叫消費這個事件我提醒你還有一點時間趕快來處理政治表態不如解決方法好 再來"},{"start":5712.425,"end":5737.999,"text":"最近我們陸委會跟海基會的預算還是有明顯的增加但是我看了一下報章雜誌媒體報導跟相關的新聞露出基本上都是互相校正佔了絕大多數的比例你們現在到底是交流還是對抗各位委員我們一直強調我們要希望交流取代圍堵用對話取代對抗還是我們的政策主軸"},{"start":5738.837,"end":5762.069,"text":"我們對於正常健康有序的良性互動我們都會繼續協處這我們都聽了你報告也講了我們大概書面也看了是你們現在跟海基會有沒有一個明確的分工你們誰上黑臉誰上白臉因為現在局勢不太好這是個客觀事實我們不是扮演黑白臉我們是功能分工功能分工有關於跟民眾的這個服務的案件"},{"start":5763.249,"end":5792.028,"text":"我們跟中國大陸可能進行協商和兩岸交流海基會是我們政府唯一委託的這個中介團體其實上他一年都有30萬件的服務案件我知道你的服務案件我一向不挑剔的這個沒有問題大家都做得很好但問題是這個政治溝通的角色不管是陸委會還是海基會現在也看第一看不出什麼明確分工第二重點是看不出成果如果今天兩岸的管道相對暢通有序今天沈博鑽委員會不會發生"},{"start":5793.189,"end":5820.954,"text":"因為有一個管道在為總體的風險進行降溫但現在是因為局勢不好能了解委員講那個管道我們過去跟對岸的各種溝通聯繫其實我們持續在維持維護著但是中國大陸他基於要我們先接受他的政治前提這個政治前提的框架裡面沒有中華民國生存的空間所以我們不會去答應他的政治前提"},{"start":5821.474,"end":5838.677,"text":"我們每次的民調主流民意也告訴我們不贊成我們接受中共的政治前提去跟中國大陸進行官方互動如果是這樣我今天沒有在談你官方互動是什麼因為中華民國的外交處境本來就很困難兩岸關係也非常複雜所以你手段要靈活所以我才問"},{"start":5839.358,"end":5854.859,"text":"你跟海基會怎麼分工有沒有跑位對不對是因為基於靈活嘛那靈活最後的結果我們都還是要看具體成果嘛那現在具體成果是我沒有講你一定什麼官式的互動或什麼東西你各式各樣的方法都可以但各式各樣的方法要降低兩岸的總體風險嘛"},{"start":5855.94,"end":5882.571,"text":"這當然也不純然是你們的責任啦畢竟這是路線的問題啊但客觀的現實我要在最後的時間我提醒一下邱主委羅秘書長吳董事長也都在聽沒有關係總體的風險升高代表的是雙邊溝通的失靈也代表中國大陸單邊主義的機會會增加他不會再管我們島內在想什麼不會再管我們國民的情感跟立場啦他會搞他自己的政治進程這件事是很危險的"},{"start":5883.371,"end":5897.195,"text":"像沈博洋委員的事情可能會越來越多所以我剛才花時間問你這個清單準備好了沒風險控管好了沒 相關名單準備好了沒國人要看到的是這裡請陸委會 海基會都好好加油 謝謝好 謝謝牛委員好 謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們請陳雪生委員發言"},{"start":5914.568,"end":5942.157,"text":"好 謝謝趙委是不是請邱主委請邱主委 謝謝陳委員好邱主委好 上個禮拜大概陸委會召集的金門馬祖地區這個旅遊局有去說明了也就是公務人員赴大陸金門馬祖的公務人員赴大陸很像回來去的時候要報備回來也要填寫報告有沒有這回事"},{"start":5943.702,"end":5970.578,"text":"跟委員報告這個是我們依照現行的法律規範訂出來的這些機制就是公務人員復入當然要請假好 我簡單講現在兩岸人民關係條例裡面有規定十一指等還有警監三階還有社密人員 政務人員"},{"start":5971.81,"end":5981.515,"text":"這些人員是需要的那11日以下的公務員是不需要的這裡面有講的不在此限規定很清楚我看過一遍"},{"start":5982.341,"end":6010.995,"text":"各位把資料也提供給我了對 跟委員報告我們分三大塊是不是這樣第一大塊就是涉密人員 政務人員還有政務官 縣市首長這個還有這些人一般的公務人員不要嗎沒有 要經過機關的同意完成請假程序第九條裡面沒有有 我們內政部有訂我們內政部的一些要點你給我的兩岸關係條例第九條裡面沒有"},{"start":6012.075,"end":6031.83,"text":"兩岸條例有授權內政部有定職法沒有啊我們是不是給委員你已經給我資料了嘛資料裡面並沒有這一條有給委員了那你們的兩岸人民關係條例跟內政部定的有抵觸的話誰的大誰的小"},{"start":6032.21,"end":6056.794,"text":"跟委員報告我們是聯安條例授權那內政部來定時事細則那確實他有說一定要經過主管機關的同意就是要完成請假的程序這個就是金門馬祖已經也做過國防部做過B級推演了現在金門地區的兩棲偵察連已經移防到澎湖去了有沒有這回事"},{"start":6062.591,"end":6081.543,"text":"跟委員報告這不在陸委會的權責範圍我們沒辦法回答那現在他們兵推的結果到最後我們目前金門馬祖的兵力大概只有一點點不足以防衛那一共兩岸交戰我請問金門馬祖獨立作戰是適同放棄嗎跟委員報告我想這個"},{"start":6091.977,"end":6120.102,"text":"我們當然是從陸委會的政策當然是維護不管是台海的和平穩定或者是金馬的這些安全我們都不希望兩岸兵戎相向我也希望啦希望歸希望啦現在我們已經在朝著戰爭的方向在走我想兩岸勢必一戰我目前的看法是這樣因為什麼呢因為你步入烏克蘭的後塵嘛"},{"start":6121.343,"end":6150.315,"text":"你不停的加強你的軍備嘛那對岸呢軍備你說實在話你買再多的軍備他要吃你的話你也跑不掉啦那麼今天的陸委會的工作報告大概是這樣滾動檢討兩岸法令健康有序交流第二個是強化兩岸的交流機構機構交流第三個是依法行政落實兩岸的"},{"start":6151.23,"end":6179.134,"text":"單一身份制度也就是最近你們在推動的戶籍單一制度第四是大陸配偶家庭保障第五海基會的服務效能第六就是風險的評估我想請問陸委會跟海基會目前在做什麼事情就做這個事嗎當然那是有關於交流的風險不可能健康有序交流啦剛才你也講了嘛他有他的想法你有你的想法"},{"start":6180.366,"end":6200.152,"text":"兩個是平行線啦不可能有所交集啦那麼這樣下去的話您大陸委員會跟海基會目前在幹什麼跟委員會報告我們現在的跟對岸的文教或者各種專業交流商務人士的玩法還是非常的你跟哪個單位交流過"},{"start":6202.128,"end":6219.702,"text":"您說官方嗎我們願意啊是他們設置障礙啊你說健康有序嗎不可能這樣兩個是平行線嘛一直在做備戰的準備啦他如果沒有設立政治前提的障礙我們很願意溝通備戰就是戰爭的開始"},{"start":6224.008,"end":6245.696,"text":"我們遭遇到中共對我們的軍機建造台我們要自我防衛啊現在已經這樣了 你防衛吧 你防衛的了嗎是不是 你是一個小學生 我是一個大學生我今天要打你 我打你就是打你嘛 還有什麼理由的咧我今天就要揍你一頓嘛 有理由嗎 沒有理由嘛"},{"start":6247.099,"end":6276.42,"text":"各位報告我們面對中共複合性的施壓你講的話四平八穩啦軍機艦老台我們不可能沒有作為啊你懂了沒有好我想問你最近馬祖也發生一些船長這個有關勾那個漁網的事情嘛把我們那個中華二號啊海嵐弄斷了他們人怎麼回去還有五個人還沒回去人球丟在馬祖移民署的管轄"},{"start":6278.168,"end":6298.073,"text":"監獄裡面 牢裡面還有五個人這些人準備怎麼回去我已經跟對岸溝通現在發了一個單一的一次性的大通證已經出來了那你們會不會朝著這個管道沒關係你們走不動那我們明天來走嘛 是不是"},{"start":6299.085,"end":6319.682,"text":"是 委員謝謝喔 那個五個人是戴遣法只要完成司法程序戴遣法多久了 已經幾年了這個我們必須要尊重司法你不要戴遣法啦 對不對中華民國不見了 你還在那邊戴遣法他就不要你遣法啦他直接來把你人帶走啦所以我們尊重司法程序我們如果有機會我們就會來遣法聽不下去了啦"},{"start":6321.533,"end":6350.857,"text":"他們是黨領導槍啊還什麼司法不司法的委員我們是文明法治的國家跟他們不一樣你沒有錯嘛今天你是小學生我是大學生我要打你就是要打你我要罵你就是罵你你不准我回嘴你回嘴我就揍你就這麼回事啊現在整個世界局勢環境的現實就是這樣嘛你說怎麼辦呢好我因為時間關係我繼續問你現在我們人民可以去大陸我們老百姓每個去大陸"},{"start":6351.857,"end":6368.873,"text":"要去四川去重慶哪裡 今天晚上買了機票坐飛機走了嘛大陸人民不能過來 什麼意思跟委員報告沒有團進團出嘛 是不是不是 我們正在透過觀光小兩會跟他們談談了沒有談了沒有只能到金門馬祖嗎只能到金門馬祖 台灣能不能進來"},{"start":6375.1,"end":6382.747,"text":"台灣還是需要透過小兩會的溝通這健康有序我答得比你快啦不是健康有序要先溝通完再進來好溝通多久了我們從二月給他喊什麼二月今年二月給他喊溝通三年多了不再看啦疫情以後不准人家進來他們想來欸你們不准他來啊"},{"start":6398.82,"end":6408.805,"text":"我們希望觀光小兩會能夠先溝通再讓他們來把過去的觀光亂象說停就停的問題把解決掉各位跟誰溝通跟誰溝通我們跟對岸的海旅會那個對岸的觀光小兩會海旅會有溝通嗎海基會有溝通嗎不是是台旅會跟對岸觀光小兩會有沒有溝通有 目前我們就我們目前就給他喊希望他趕快積極的回應你的喊已經擺在那裡躺在那裡我知道啦"},{"start":6429.383,"end":6451.213,"text":"他連看都不看你一眼啦你擺在那裡幹什麼囉你要跟他健康有序要我中華民國跟你中華人民共和國對談他不跟你談嘛如果他們那麼粗暴那麼野蠻還讓他們來觀光而完全沒有設防你讓他來觀光嘛連觀光都不允許現在只有商務可以來啊我們"},{"start":6453.479,"end":6481.138,"text":"如果在國家安全的前提下我們恢復兩岸觀光交流也是我們的政策你慢慢國家安全嘛等到濱林沉下你還在那邊講那麼安全還在講國家安全這個沒有不健康嘛是不是你起碼把人先給他放進來嘛我們的人可以去他們人不可以來這什麼話只能到金門馬祖還有金門那邊已經"},{"start":6482.003,"end":6503.287,"text":"以後已經一百多萬人到那邊觀光了馬祖兩三千個人你們視而不見了管還是不管我們當然也很關切為什麼到金門的人比較穩定到馬祖的人比較少那當然跟這個馬祖的觀光資源的形態有關那我們也希望我很不想很不想很不想砍你的預算說真的"},{"start":6510.014,"end":6537.021,"text":"但是你們兩百多個人放在那邊幹什麼就是那些健康有序啊對牛談情啊無病呻吟就是搞這些事情嗎是不是跟委員報告我們同仁我想耳朵非常的保護國人保護台灣守護台灣我們同仁盡了大量努力大家看得到他你也很努力大家都很努力那呼口號嘛"},{"start":6538.181,"end":6546.707,"text":"中華民國萬歲萬萬歲在呼口號我們職責所在依法行政同仁們都進了很多的 做了很多重要的工作主委你今天這個齁 我說真的還有海基會海基會預算要不要刪今天的反對黨不跟你玩什麼統三百分之三喔一條一條來衛生紙絕對不刪 汽油不刪 租賃費不刪"},{"start":6566.243,"end":6594.254,"text":"你說水電不夠絕對不會刪你的刪你什麼你們這些人養在那邊幹什麼養那麼多人幹什麼你說預算不應該凍結嗎應該要凍結嘛你說該不該凍結起碼凍結你一半還對你客氣把人凍結以後怎麼辦這些都是編制內的人員你們海基會海協會本身的編制組織你們的功能架構不用檢討嗎所以請你回去啊"},{"start":6595.185,"end":6604.625,"text":"五月末回 拜託您不要再繼續健康有序交流好不好健康有序交流啊 非常的不健康而且不務實際 好不好"},{"start":6606.674,"end":6624.794,"text":"跟委員報告 陸委會的工作同仁都非常的努力都在守護台灣 捍衛我們國家主權安全我知道很努力啊 沒有功能嘛你不能說這個是沒功能這樣對我們同仁不公平啊我長不出苗來 因為我不懂"},{"start":6626.876,"end":6651.988,"text":"面對中共對於我們複合性的施壓步步進逼我們不能沒有作為守護台灣是我們最重要的事情你這靠老美嘛還什麼作為呢今天講白了一點講穿了就這麼回事嘛老美敢你把你賣掉的時候你就完了啦是不是這樣我們今天已經在逐漸步入備戰你要告訴全國的民眾喔我們已經在備戰我們在東引"},{"start":6653.682,"end":6682.233,"text":"馬祖東引地區部署的雄風飛彈 天空飛彈雄二飛彈是針對海峽的天空飛彈針對空中的一旦低級的時候 我們整個東引島毀滅你有沒有幫我們東引想一想要不要給老百姓戰爭風險的補償費我覺得我們整個政府要去想一想最先死的 死的最快的就是我們馬祖的東引你有想一想嗎"},{"start":6683.479,"end":6710.338,"text":"所以兩岸的領導人喔真的好好去思考一下不要身臨圖騰好不好陸委會做你的事情我不會砍你的預算啦基於你跟我兩個人的交情喔我不會砍你的預算但你不能長此以往下去啊你不能每天在那邊健康有序要幹什麼你替陸委會整個維護我我很了解啦我弟弟本身也在陸委會服務過嘛但是不可以這樣一直下去啦好不好謝謝啦謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":6713.629,"end":6718.552,"text":"好謝謝陳雪仙委員接下來我們請賴世寶委員發言謝謝主席請各位先進有請陸委會的邱主委請邱主委賴委員好你好我簡單幾個問題想請教"},{"start":6741.95,"end":6759.856,"text":"這個有關於沈伯陽被通緝的事情啊兩岸的事情不是賴總統要出面嗎或者你要想一想反制啊怎麼賴給韓國瑜呢這很奇怪這邏輯非常奇怪啊這個憲法明明規定兩岸的事務是總統管的啊怎麼會"},{"start":6763.336,"end":6781.591,"text":"我請教你如果會有沒有反制的一些方案類似這個事情跟委員報告對於中共的跨境鎮壓不管是對沈博洋還是對於我們國軍官兵還是對於服務在我們政府體系的這種恫嚇"},{"start":6784.472,"end":6803.219,"text":"第一個要展現我們國人團結一心反擊這個中共的立場第二個我們也呼籲我們還是要強調問題的本質他就是來恫嚇跟分化我們所以我們要跟國人說他沒有管轄權我們國人不受到"},{"start":6804.319,"end":6828.301,"text":"任何的拘束所以我們國人都是安全的但是出國去旅遊這部分我們會跟外交部門來合作避免風險對於赴陸港澳我們也呼籲國人要審慎評估他的安全性畢竟我們從去年到現在已經有233個個案因為刑方不明因為"},{"start":6829.343,"end":6831.325,"text":"你處理兩岸是不是依據中華民國憲法及兩岸人民關係條例來處理"},{"start":6849.464,"end":6862.67,"text":"這是我們的基本的法律原則那這樣子的話是不是同意兩岸我們主權互不成立 主不承認治權互不否認這句話你同意不同意跟委員報告是當然我們彼此的主權互不隸屬主權互不承認嘛我說主權互不承認治權互不否認這句話你同意嗎"},{"start":6880.031,"end":6901.167,"text":"但是他開始否認了你同意嗎我只是強調我們中華民國是個主權國家台灣從來沒有被中華人民共和國統治過兩岸互不承認是客觀現實跟台海現狀朝野就很多共識的基礎主權兩岸就是主權互不承認治權互不否認你同意嗎"},{"start":6910.137,"end":6933.485,"text":"我是不同意因為在2019年元月二號習五條他重新定義了這個所謂的九二共識現在他主政他的強制力跟過去這個習以前的這些領導人完全不同那你就主張一邊一果樓是不是"},{"start":6935.322,"end":6944.013,"text":"我們是說中華民國跟中華人民共和國互不隸屬如果你主張一邊一國那陸委會可以裁掉啦陸委會可以裁掉啦陸委會的成立宗旨是跟大陸交流啊"},{"start":6951.26,"end":6966.287,"text":"我們願意交流啊但是我不能說我願意跟你交流我中華民國就不存在了但是他現在的一中原則九二共識就是沒有中華民國存在的空間啊委員你也可以去問對岸"},{"start":6967.607,"end":6989.1,"text":"在你們的框架裡面我們有存在的空間嗎請問你喔是陸委會不是國防部啊不是戰爭部啊這個你每天喊打喊殺什麼陸委會主委這樣子做的態度呢你要看一看你們海基會兩位大長官坐在那裡他們也希望交流啊我們希望對等尊嚴跟他們也希望交流"},{"start":6989.54,"end":7004.366,"text":"跟中國大陸進行健康有序的交流你有沒有安排有沒有在努力最少最少讓海基會的董事長或者秘書長跟海協會的會長或者他的秘書長見面有沒有"},{"start":7005.134,"end":7027.267,"text":"跟委員報告我們都在努力突破什麼時候有機會但是中共的僵化思維跟負面作為以目前看起來困難但是我們都在努力突破這是一個很重要的指標是你不方便跟宋濤見面但是吳董事長如果跟江志軍會長如果能見面那兩岸就是很大的突破了對就是功勞一件啊"},{"start":7032.33,"end":7047.402,"text":"我們也呼籲對岸要解放思想 實事求治人家問你 你要不要啊 你也不要啊我們願意啊只要他在對等尊嚴 我們都願意啊我們樂見吳董事長赴陸去做交流啊不這樣子 你看喔 你看喔你現在來講 對我們去大陸我這裡 這個沒有時間講太多了最多的是103年 104年那時候還是馬英九執政"},{"start":7062.165,"end":7084.365,"text":"到500多萬現在呢來台的旅客只有剩100多萬然後呢我們去大陸的原來500多萬現在剩兩三百萬大概250萬左右所以可見的在民進黨執政底下兩岸是緊縮的兩岸是緊張的我們都知道兩岸要和平一方面我們備戰"},{"start":7086.178,"end":7100.689,"text":"被戰我們絕對支持讓台灣有一定的國防能力沒有人反對但是要避戰的避戰就看你結果你現在不是你本來是論華記你這個陸委會應該是一個論華記讓兩岸交流可以避戰結果你現在把自己戰狼化沒有 跟委員報告其實最"},{"start":7109.46,"end":7123.691,"text":"需要交流的是陸委會的主張我們需要有健康有序的交流沒有統戰的交流我們也在積極推動兩岸人流的良性互動的交流現在陸委會的觀點裡面我們看了半天你就把交流定為統戰怎麼啪 怎麼啪這樣不是 我們要降低統戰的這種對台灣的傷害如果你按照你的講法所有的交流都是統戰沒有 沒有這回事我舉例 比如說"},{"start":7136.502,"end":7154.822,"text":"為什麼你讓大陸的學者沒有辦法來台灣你禁止他來台灣跟委員報告這就是天大的冤枉是中國大陸的機構不同意他們的學者來交流我們對於領安最理性的人我們就希望透過這個"},{"start":7157.344,"end":7182.88,"text":"對準交流你核准他來都是比如說他機票是後天結果明天沒有這回事我們對於正常健康有序的正向交流我們都願意提供必要的協助最後一點現在請問我們去大陸的紙航店有幾點目前原有的5個之外再加上10個目前是15個紙航店最多的時候幾個點最多有50個50幾個"},{"start":7186.277,"end":7202.091,"text":"你可不可以增加一點我們在評估我們也希望最主要是兩岸的人流不多尤其對岸來的人太少因為你不給他來我們願意來是他不願意跟我們努力合作願意來"},{"start":7203.852,"end":7211.238,"text":"我們的人去年去277萬如果加港澳有加402萬他們才來46萬扣掉從第三地的11萬他來不到30萬所以委員"},{"start":7218.823,"end":7222.365,"text":"我們是277萬過去 加港澳有402萬這個難道少嗎 他們不來 這是他們所製造的問題啊很多是你技術不卡關啊 是他們不願意放人來大陸的大學教授很想來 可是都被你卡關"},{"start":7241.255,"end":7260.821,"text":"沒有這絕對不是事實那委員如果有一些卡關的案子你跟我們講是歸咎於我們幾乎都卡關因為你核准都是登機前兩天我們就希望透過兩岸理性的學者能夠到一起來溝通最後一句話陸委會我們兩岸要和平備戰必戰"},{"start":7268.172,"end":7270.393,"text":"我們一起努力不要只有備戰不必戰我們現在備戰是理應因為主委會把自己戰狼化這是一個很大的問題我們不是戰狼我們是務實面對"},{"start":7285.021,"end":7300.741,"text":"你可以看你剛才從回答很多委員都是說我這個那個這個那個框框條條框框太多你就是把自己沾染化如果把自己沾染化真的如果可以拆掉他成立的宗旨就是要兩岸交流"},{"start":7301.601,"end":7326.172,"text":"兩岸交流是最大的宗旨結果現在你要交流設了很多的門檻框框條條沒有門檻那門檻就是要維護我們避免被統戰滲透又來這句話了交流就怕統戰對自己這麼沒有信心我們可以統戰他們他們來看我們的抗議節目都好對不對每天可以罵政府官員他們都羨慕我們統戰他們"},{"start":7330.451,"end":7338.976,"text":"我們統戰他們 怎麼怕被統戰呢奇怪 讓他來我們統戰他們你就丟好 謝謝委員好 謝謝賴思寶委員的諮詢我們接下來請謝龍介委員發言主席 我請董事長跟副董事長"},{"start":7359.565,"end":7362.466,"text":"請吳董事長還有羅文佳副董事長董事長你好市長你好我先請教那個副董事長羅副董事長你就職到現在有去過台六"},{"start":7389.763,"end":7416.583,"text":"目前沒有 九十九十都不滿了 對OK來很可惜 因為那一機會成立的目的當時你加班九十嘛你也沒過嘛但是有透過個人的感受那時候是我們本會的感受正確到"},{"start":7418.029,"end":7419.349,"text":"對話有聯繫嗎有嗎開秘密會議的時候在這不可以說這個應該不是什麼基本上交流是好事但交流本來就有官方"},{"start":7447.349,"end":7469.001,"text":"有正事跟非正事嗎我剛才報告就是我在過去一年當中多方努力希望恢復對話多方努力希望恢復對話就是跟對方恢復嗎對恢復對話"},{"start":7475.204,"end":7503.457,"text":"恢復對話那但是結果沒有對到到現在還沒有結果那就是完全沒有就對了因為這是很可惜的兩岸成立海基會跟陸委會基本上我們就是走和平的路線才會需要這些單位嘛如果是要站的話基本上那你展現出來是要站那基本上"},{"start":7504.493,"end":7525.159,"text":"就不必對話那不必對話就不需要我們這裡的任務單位了很可惜因為我知道本縣理解是你跟副當事長個人都有很多人脈在兩岸之間可以貢獻我為什麼不請主委因為他在這裡說的話他的本人都不敢嘛事實上就不是這樣嘛你起來 好"},{"start":7534.534,"end":7541.957,"text":"它典現出兩岸國防外交就是總統的議題這樣表示立場總統有下令不接觸不談判也不交流這個大大的錯誤嘛交流就可以避免擦槍走火嘛你看是民間的交流嘛民間的交流最好可以到政府跟政府機關政府跟政府機關你釋出審議的交流"},{"start":7565.256,"end":7573.483,"text":"剛剛委員所講的很抱歉無法同意不同意的原因我也很清楚講第一個賴總統在就職演說國慶文告講得非常清楚"},{"start":7591.223,"end":7605.955,"text":"我歡迎跟兩岸對等健康有序交流的承諾永遠不變我願意從觀光和就學兩個具體的作為來展開第一個所以沒有不交流但我們要對等尊嚴健康有序的交流第一個"},{"start":7606.516,"end":7632.266,"text":"第二個目前的狀況是你剛才說為什麼董事長和我沒辦法去按照兩會的協定應該制度性往來海基會董事長也好或我個人也好我們多次的表達我們願意前往在不是任何政治前提下但是現在問題是他要求我們前往這個前提這不可以接受啦這不可以接受啦所以我不懂你的看法還是這樣我們不可以接受他的主張啦我沒叫你接受啊"},{"start":7635.68,"end":7636.641,"text":"我請問你喔你處理這個會都台六 你請問多少"},{"start":7663.84,"end":7667.682,"text":"恢復這個台六席的這個配額國籍的時候有經過施法定署有經過法院申報你開除人家國籍啦國籍法不是陸委會的權責那是內政部的職務那不是都你們辦的嗎那跟我們沒關係你們到現在沒有二三判"},{"start":7693.144,"end":7704.936,"text":"都不是我們這裡所以包括他在這裡說要顛覆我們的政府還是什麼現主席在你這裡還沒有有多少人已經去開除中華民國的國籍委員是說那個有關於有一些個案 陸配"},{"start":7712.677,"end":7737.936,"text":"他被取消我們這邊定居啊或是居留的那個因為我們接到那個很多檢舉案我們就依照這個你搬多少啊搬多少啊有經過書房在訂書嗎上次那個雅雅的他們好像有兩個剝削一個人的"},{"start":7739.298,"end":7742.039,"text":"是戶籍不是國籍我們沒有處理國籍跟委員報告我們是依法我們兩岸條例不管是18條或是大陸人士來台定居留許可辦法相關的條文我們都是用相關的條文依法處理"},{"start":7765.663,"end":7782.455,"text":"而且當事人也有到主任法院主席之前你來拜會的本席是你主席之前四月份來的時候是五月初你看本席說的到你主席之後是羅總統有給你重新的署名就是記者一切的聯絡"},{"start":7783.962,"end":7808.95,"text":"所以做生意一年半以來 大家是適當對待我們所謂我們主管的部分這不用懷疑啦 這就是沒變的嘛但是在立場堅定的情形下 有什麼一點突破就沒有了完全沒去做到這種突破 你做了六一會主委 你有什麼說法"},{"start":7810.219,"end":7830.663,"text":"委員 我們願意不斷地突破包括我們也希望兩岸能夠健康有序的交流我們海基會也希望有機會能夠去探視我們的大陸台商過去十幾年來所有的交流都沒有健康你現在要希望健康的交流過去的交流都沒有健康過去的交流都沒有重點"},{"start":7837.25,"end":7844.273,"text":"所以你現在就是要有健康 有尊嚴 比較要風來嘛我們比較要去嘛你甚至限制我們的人 盡量不要去包括什麼宗教改的 廟徽的就叫你佩服他們要去 要了解風險啦風險 我比你更了解的啦兩方多危險美國和台中說了怎樣 我們更風險都要考慮了嘛 用善意"},{"start":7865.667,"end":7876.231,"text":"可以化解敵意是用敵意 針對敵意當敵意上升的時候就是台灣合力衝擊的時候謝謝你謝謝 委員謝謝徐同學委員接下來請徐欣怡委員發言"},{"start":7895.418,"end":7898.627,"text":"謝謝主席 本席有請邱主委邱主委"},{"start":7903.47,"end":7931.893,"text":"徐委好主委好主委本席刚提早到听到您有回答前面的委员说您这个也很乐见我们的海基会董事长吴董事长去大陆交流那本席很好奇你身为陆委会主委你怎么不率先破冰之旅和平之旅你就率先去大陆交流"},{"start":7932.489,"end":7947.456,"text":"跟委員報告如果是對等尊嚴兩岸有需要人民支持我們當然這是我們職責所在不過截至目前為止中國大陸還是要求我們必須答應他的政治前提那這個前提前提是我們要接受他一個中國原則的九二共識"},{"start":7953.584,"end":7979.912,"text":"在這個框架裡面沒有中華民國存在的空間我們無法答應這種消滅中華民國併吞台灣的政治前提所以你可以過去跟他們反映所以你有提過要過去嗎 沒有你沒有提出過在各式各樣的交流活動他都必須把政治前提放在前頭所以你就去好好跟他談"},{"start":7981.88,"end":8005.04,"text":"對不對 軟硬的話都可以講啊甚至您可以帶沈伯陽委員過去澄清一些誤會也不錯啊 對不對所以我們的陸委會不跟大陸做任何的互動交流這是很奇怪的一件事從我們第一會期這一屆第一會期我們就一直講所以你看大家都覺得陸委會可以裁撤啦"},{"start":8005.8,"end":8033.578,"text":"那你们有讲你现在所做的都是一些台商的事所以本席也觉得那我们陆委会就变成什么台商协助会就好了根本不需要有一个跟各部会同等的位阶的陆委会因为你根本都没有去交流接着这个是刚刚本席听到你回复但我们很希望你可以去你代表我们中华民国台湾我们的尊严"},{"start":8034.622,"end":8056.413,"text":"可以然後去你表達我們嚴正的立場我們都支持你我也認同你啊對等尊嚴但是你都三不政策對不對不接觸不交流完全不互動我們還是要推動這個健康有序的交流讓兩岸能夠和平健康有序的交流請主委你做起"},{"start":8057.942,"end":8084.148,"text":"由你來做 你帶頭來做嘛好不好我們希望這樣 雖然其實陸委會我們這一會期又要省預算了那陸委會我們不知道你所做的事你密切注意我看你的那個報告裡面你做的事情都是paperwork或者是你就是在這邊靜靜的沒有靜靜的我們做了大量的努力對 所以可能陸委會也許可以考慮"},{"start":8084.748,"end":8102.198,"text":"考慮轉型不用成為部會它就是一個台商協助會或是什麼我們也有需要協助我們台商但是如果您願意跨出這個兩岸破冰兩岸和平之旅那我們全力支持您是 謝謝委員那再來就是我們"},{"start":8103.479,"end":8121.954,"text":"看到有一個聯合報的最新民調八成八的民眾認為兩岸溝通管道不可中斷這當然也是呼應剛剛前面我所請教您的那民進黨執政至今呢我們看到兩岸的很多的溝通顯然無效我們現在具體的來看"},{"start":8123.215,"end":8144.314,"text":"過去簽的26項協議慘不忍睹 非常的慘不忍睹首先在司法互助的方面我們看到雪崩式下跌我方要求遣返2076人結果陸方只送回512人我們的政府功能不髒"},{"start":8146.095,"end":8175.095,"text":"再來ECFA的經貿急速降溫整個雙雙崩跌再來觀光交流也是大幅下滑入客不來我們國內的產業受創我想主委你應該很清楚我們的老街一條一條的沒落一條一條的蕭條還有我們國人本來很多的紀念品對旅客的紀念品店"},{"start":8176.547,"end":8200.064,"text":"一間一間關起來現在都幾乎關掉了然後老街也都帶動不了整個的觀光這個都跟陸委會的這個業務影響很大所以這一個部分主委這個數據也在在顯示您真的需要率先再去開啟兩岸的交流可以嗎"},{"start":8200.782,"end":8220.158,"text":"跟委員報告兩岸的目前的交流的障礙都不是我們造成的都是別人專門檢討別人剛剛委員所說的兩岸這個目前剩下的協議有26項我也很專業但是我們陸委會我們的同仁幾乎定期在每一項的協議都在盤點都在精進"},{"start":8223.52,"end":8239.006,"text":"對岸就是整個就是冰凍嘛沒有 那是對岸所造成的這個片面的這個脅迫我想大家都很清楚啦那再來就還有一點時間本席一定要特別針對我們不管陸委會再怎麼不作為"},{"start":8240.529,"end":8254.06,"text":"我們現在面臨的我們的民眾人流的安全還有我們產業的這個所受到的威脅這兩塊本席也要特別在今天特別提出來"},{"start":8255.199,"end":8280.337,"text":"我们人生两岸交流啊人身安全官方不交流那我们民间倒是交流的等于我们的民众过去是蛮频繁的不管是这个有一些我们企业派驻的人员或是我们这个观光的我想您也很清楚所以人身安全是我们最重要也是我们最重视的那我想请教您"},{"start":8281.478,"end":8297.348,"text":"對於我們人流安全風險上升陸委會對國人旅遊或是企業派駐人員的法律與保險協助有沒有強化到足以應付他們複合式的一些脅迫的程度"},{"start":8297.768,"end":8315.164,"text":"是委員提到這個很重要我們也在關注請你簡答我時間不多我們從去年到現在有233件這種人身安全的風險那我們也持續透過既有的管道跟對岸去反映必須要落實踐行他們的司法人權我這邊很好你講到重點現在這邊打"},{"start":8318.447,"end":8346.912,"text":"打住你的管道就是發傳真開記者會我們現在陸委會呢人道救援這個我們看到就是只留於發傳真跟開記者會我們還是協調各部會在進行跟中國大陸的共同打擊犯罪與司法互助合作的機制底下在跟他們講有共打你們的這個在互動上你們的共打機制好像沒有很好"},{"start":8347.613,"end":8351.129,"text":"因為本席聽到很多我們國人遭遇一些"},{"start":8352.247,"end":8376.884,"text":"一種您所說的一些類似的處境我聽到的是他們拜託陸委會海基會不要介入不要開記者會好像會越幫越忙這個行為就表示對陸委會最直接的投下反對票跟委員報告所以陸委會不是一個文明法治的國家就好像懲徒22條我們國人啊 負入遭到的人身風險"},{"start":8377.825,"end":8391.811,"text":"我們就是要不斷的透過機制我們相關的部會也在積極努力當中好啦 人道救援絕對是我們國家最基本的任務也是我們人民最後的期盼我們政府不能只有發傳真根沒有 我們積極的來協助最後 最後有關產業的部分"},{"start":8396.093,"end":8412.626,"text":"主委你有沒有發現大陸塑化中堅原料像尼龍纖維 人造絲等產品長期利用他們的超額產能對我國基礎工業產生了低價傾銷的威脅那針對這個部分你們有沒有量化"},{"start":8414.063,"end":8438.85,"text":"對台灣基礎工業的傾銷風險有沒有量化是委員你講這個非常重要中國大陸在這種傳統產業我說的都很重要你們有沒有做有有有這個非常嚴重過度的傾銷我們台灣造成我們台灣傳統產業很大的壓力像我們的台塑利利這些企業是大家應該知道我們如果一旦崩潰會造成多少數萬家庭生計的風險是我們了解你們電話指標有做嗎"},{"start":8443.775,"end":8463.703,"text":"是我們這方面我們跟我們的經濟部門還有產業各單位都有積極的在協處避免受到中國大陸的一定要跟相關單位你們儘快展開調查才可以而且要儘快的做這個速度你們所做的速度就是我們產業的生命線所以這個部分你今天講不出一個"},{"start":8468.806,"end":8474.21,"text":"一個重點 我們各部門都已經展開行動對於中國大陸 你有沒有量化指標是不是我們在提相關的資料給委員請在會後提相關資料給我們 好不好"},{"start":8483.456,"end":8501.088,"text":"最後我要講守護傳統產業就是守護我們台灣的就業與在地經濟的命脈是主委拜託陸委會要有所作為是謝謝委員我們全力以赴謝謝許新委員接下來我們請蘇喬惠委員發言"},{"start":8513.083,"end":8516.025,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請邱主委邱主委好我剛剛在這裡也是聽到您這個備詢的這樣的狀況我認為是這樣子就是說其實剛剛諸位委員其實一直在質疑您的就是他們認為陸委會是不是是一種對中國是完全採取不交流不接觸這樣的態度"},{"start":8542.703,"end":8546.605,"text":"你在在的否認嘛 對不對沒有錯吧 剛剛是這樣嘛那我認為是這樣子因為其實我剛剛聽到這整個狀況應該是說你認為現在我們並沒有拒絕和中國互動往來完全是因為中國給我們設了一個前提你可以再說一次這個前提是什麼嗎是 跟委員報告"},{"start":8568.423,"end":8589.848,"text":"為什麼不去的中國社的前提我們當然希望跟中國大陸進行良性互動對共同來促進台海的和平穩定跟繁榮這個對我們來講兩岸都有所所以他的前提但是他的前提我們只要跟他官方互動他一定要接受他一中原則或是九二共識所以中華民國就不存在了對你剛剛就這樣說嘛是"},{"start":8592.709,"end":8596.751,"text":"對 可是我剛剛聽到這個整個大家的質詢內容狀況它會是一個這樣子一個不斷的循環就像中國你為什麼不去跟中國交流因為中國說要跟他交流之前必須先承認一中也就是中華民國就消滅了然後他就繼續會告訴你說那你就是大張旗鼓的維持尊嚴的去到他那裡跟他談我是中華民國我要尊嚴"},{"start":8616.701,"end":8626.75,"text":"那可是問題是中國就是要先你不承認中華民國你已經中華民國不存在你世界上只有一個中華人民共和國他才要讓你上去啊那你就是去那上面再跟他說這個我們中華民國存在主委看起來你現在面臨的是一個這樣的狀況那你覺得你要怎樣因為如果這個論述你沒有對應這個論述的真正的話我看你的預算可能會守不住喔是"},{"start":8642.863,"end":8656.678,"text":"委員講得很好委員有提到有些委員把不交流的一些責任都歸諸在我們政府身上這不公平的事實上委員講得好就是說製造交流的障礙是"},{"start":8658.36,"end":8685.535,"text":"對岸 陸方造成的我們都願意在對等尊嚴進行健康有序的交流這是我們的政策剛剛我們羅密蘇蘭也講到如果說在這個原則下我們應該在觀光客在學生的交流方面來啟動共同追求一個和平共榮的目標這也就是我們賴總統所接觸的兩岸政策但是是對岸設置的這個片面的障礙"},{"start":8686.315,"end":8696.501,"text":"使我們沒有辦法進行這種正常的交流而把沒辦法正常進行的這個交流歸入於現在我們的政府這不公平全世界都認為這是很不公平的事我認為其實現在台灣社會的主流意見在經過這麼多的震盪之後其實中華民國中華民國台灣台灣就是我們現在最大的一個共識"},{"start":8709.468,"end":8718.913,"text":"我們是一個主權獨立的國家我們在這裡有我們自己的制度這個是我們絕大多數人都認同的共識就是在這裡所以剛剛在說的你後面到底有沒有觀光客要來啊這個兩岸的產業能不能夠互動啊等等等等其實就是要建立在我們可以自己把自己的國家保護好的狀況之下嘛"},{"start":8732.501,"end":8747.575,"text":"所以中國讓我們過去的前提就是要先自己承認自己不存在不存在在這個世界上這件事情一定要讓更多的國人了解所有後面的屏幕都是跟前面這個他要求你先承認你自己不存在才有後面"},{"start":8750.53,"end":8755.816,"text":"這件事情我覺得應該要讓社會更了解所以比如說好了我們今天其實我本來要問你的是這個這個中國央視的發布剛剛也有很多人提到的這個起底台獨沈伯陽的這支紀錄片好而且呢"},{"start":8765.566,"end":8783.319,"text":"在這部紀錄片裡面其實它最重要的兩個事情第一件事情它就是中國官方要對沈伯陽委員展開全球抓捕全球的抓捕喔就是不是只有在中國境內到你到任何一個地方他都要抓你第二個它最重要的就是在片尾的時候給你加上一句"},{"start":8784.659,"end":8803.726,"text":"鬆手吧 否則下一個就是你主委 你認為這支影片所提到的中國可以有權利對 在境外抓捕沈博洋委員嗎抓捕我們中華民國的立法委員沈博洋委員嗎這是我的第一個問題第二個 你認為中國做這一支紀錄片 所謂的紀錄片但事實上根本就不是事實的 偽紀錄片這樣的態度 他到底是想要做什麼"},{"start":8812.554,"end":8832.706,"text":"跟委員報告他最主要目的是恫嚇跟分化我們 下一個就是你其實我們每個人都有可能變成什麼樣因為我們閱讀過審讀22條你如果不支持中國的對台政策的話你很可能就是被法律是違反他們的審讀22條他就可以對你立案調查他就可以"},{"start":8836.867,"end":8851.08,"text":"終身追訴然後長臂管轄無眼佛界甚至可以判處死刑缺席審判沒收財產連累家人一連串的這種跨境鎮壓這是國人要凝聚共識"},{"start":8852.101,"end":8860.525,"text":"來反對 來譴責這種行為所以很顯然的這是一支新戰的影片嘛新戰的影片他是在製造恐懼啊你這些作為可能都是犯罪所以我可以全球抓捕你而且就抓你回中國這是他要達到的效果好 那我們就剛剛問的第一個問題其實是主委 中國有這種權利嗎中國可以有這樣的境外嗎中國可以透過國際刑警組織和跨境司法合作來抓捕沈伯陽委員嗎主委他手說這樣嗎"},{"start":8878.732,"end":8900.58,"text":"他發布這個影片反而是我們進行國際溝通一個很好的題材中國大陸在國際社會要抓捕政治犯讓中國的形象讓中國他不僅是對我們跨境鎮壓他也可能對全世界各國展開這種跨境鎮壓我們要把這個台灣的事情讓國際社會都了解"},{"start":8901.46,"end":8914.267,"text":"很好這是第一個讓國際社會更了解中國的無理性但是我們如果從法律層面上面來講以實體上面來講罪名的狀況影片中間提到的一切其實都沒有具體的證據啊通通沒有具體的證據只是一直強調傷害中國人的感情"},{"start":8917.588,"end":8922.411,"text":"請問這是什麼樣的罪名程序問題來講的話中國能不能夠做這些境外的逮捕追緝其實取決於中國跟各國的司法相關的引渡條例但是引渡條例不能夠針對政治犯所以中國常常都是會用什麼洗錢等等給你安一些這些罪名他才能進行這樣做引渡"},{"start":8939.102,"end":8957.007,"text":"所以不管是從實體或者是程序中國其實都不能夠像影片所述的直接就是全球追捕沈伯陽委員所以到最後他用一個不存在的事實來做一個不存在的罪名做一個不可能的行為其實最重要他只是想要告訴你收手吧"},{"start":8957.947,"end":8980.427,"text":"下一個可能就是你就是這樣的新戰作用所以我認為其實陸委會最重要的事情比起剛剛的這樣說我個人認為其實最重要的事情是我們要想辦法讓台灣我們所有的國民能夠了解自己的處境我們在跟中國交往的困境其實就是一 它要你先承認你的國家不存在"},{"start":8981.525,"end":8984.807,"text":"才有機會去談判才有機會會進行官方的對話就是這麼簡單嘛第二 它就是要你怕要你對它不能講任何的壞話否則就對你進行全球追捕 終身追溯我本人也是啦我本人也是在名單上面的一個啦所以這個"},{"start":9002.148,"end":9021.32,"text":"主委我是期待這次的我們的預算審查的時候就這個部分能夠有更剛剛有些委員說要有質化的量化的指標那你就把這些量化的指標到底有多少人來申請多少人是因為他們不來的等等的如果可以提出一些更具體的數字我覺得可以更促進國人了解我們現在真實的困境謝謝委員我們全力以赴也感謝委員剛剛對這個案子的非常"},{"start":9032.16,"end":9042.088,"text":"這個周前的這種說明我們就一起加油謝謝蘇巧惠委員的質詢接下來請吳佩奕委員發言謝謝主席我請陸委會主委請就主委委員好"},{"start":9060.243,"end":9068.545,"text":"主委好這個中國的重慶公安局說要對沈博洋委員我們中華民國立法委員沈博洋進行立案偵查立案調查中國的央視發布影片說這個沈博洋說要威脅全球抓捕沈博洋剛剛蘇曉慧委員我認為他指出的非常清楚明確這原來啊"},{"start":9086.38,"end":9105.938,"text":"不是法律戰這是新戰這個完全是漁業這個文明法治的底線他就如同一個天朝律令一樣我想這也是跨國鎮壓最好的案例我們會在國際上他的目的呢中國就是要用政府國家的力量來恐嚇威脅外國的公民而這件事情"},{"start":9111.503,"end":9115.126,"text":"他可能不只發生在沈博洋身上可能發生在我們台灣每一位公民身上而他不只發生在沈博洋身上他正在發生在其他國家包括國會議員身上所以中國的這個新戰他的威脅恐嚇是針對全世界民主國家在發動攻擊的"},{"start":9133.319,"end":9151.987,"text":"這個新戰荒謬到什麼程度呢央視發布影片之外現在中國還有一個網站上面說這個沈伯陽的沈伯陽因為是台獨份子所以呢他的兒子要去瑞士申請學校被拒絕沈伯陽因為是台獨份子所以沈伯陽的女兒要去英國念學校也被拒絕"},{"start":9153.683,"end":9163.93,"text":"哇 拜託一下聽說中國的情報工作做得很整密請來看加開臨時會我們在立法院我跟沈伯陽委員黃婕委員的直播沈伯陽沒有兒子啊沈伯陽的女兒還沒念小學啊而且就讀在就是我們台北市的學校這麼荒謬的言論竟然可以透過中國的網站鋪天蓋地的在造謠就是在呈現什麼我要讓其他的人心裡害怕如果你們敢跟沈伯陽一樣"},{"start":9183.544,"end":9187.011,"text":"捍衛中華民國主權的話哇 你的兒子出國念書可能都會被拒絕荒謬至極那我要講的是不只針對台灣"},{"start":9192.564,"end":9199.029,"text":"這個美國自由自家2月發布報告去年一整年中國是全世界進行跨國鎮壓最大宗的國家全世界160件中國就大宗英國國會的人權委員會也指出了去年跨境鎮壓的案件增加了48%非常多近五成而中國就是全世界跨境鎮壓主要威脅的來源中國畫面到什麼程度在日本中國住大阪的"},{"start":9222.384,"end":9226.107,"text":"總理是薛健因為高市早苗首相在發表言論挺台言論所以呢這個薛健啊他竟然大言不慚非常失禮的說要斬首日本首相他使用什麼文字他說那種骯髒的頭就應該毫不猶豫斬掉這是中國的外交官在日本對日本的首相"},{"start":9250.447,"end":9259.414,"text":"大言不慚非常失禮的行為日本的國會議員說這個已經是在恐嚇了甚至有議員要求政府應該立刻把他遣除出境"},{"start":9260.697,"end":9276.249,"text":"那麼在紐西蘭中國駐紐西蘭的大使王小龍因為紐西蘭的國會議員出席我們台灣中華民國的國慶酒會竟然在紐西蘭的中國大使擔感寫信給多名的紐西蘭國會議員訓斥他們說他們不准參加台灣國慶"},{"start":9280.742,"end":9283.203,"text":"紐西蘭的外交部部長公開說這個中國大使毫無民主觀念所以呢對於中國現在威脅沈伯陽說要全球抓捕這種跨境鎮壓的威脅以及非常多不禮貌的言論跟行為陸委會你們的態度是什麼是我們的態度其實跟委員很多的主張都是一致的"},{"start":9303.752,"end":9331.223,"text":"我們認為這是對台灣的一個認知作戰對台灣的心理戰特別是在恫嚇跟分化我們台灣所以面對這樣我們首先就是不分朝野國人要團結一致 一致對外譴責這種跨境鎮壓同時對於被涉及到的不管是我們的國軍官兵不管是我們的政務官或者是我們的守護台灣的人我們都應該來幫忙他 保護他 協助他"},{"start":9333.644,"end":9361.414,"text":"不要配合中共對他的施壓這個都是非常重要那當然我們如何的做好國際的這個說明中國的這個對外這個跨境鎮壓特別是針對我們國人的部分我們要把這個實力跟國際來說明像剛剛委員提了好幾個例子包括紐西蘭日本的例子這個目前就是國際社會非常重視的案子"},{"start":9362.174,"end":9373.298,"text":"沒有錯中國現在已經是世界級的流氓全球的Troublemaker台灣是努力在全世界跟民主盟友做朋友所以這條路我們要繼續走下去而國內的團結更加重要中國對台灣最嚴重的威脅就是2005年試圖用反分裂法來恐嚇威脅台灣當時台灣人是上百萬人上街頭我那年我是大學生我也去上街了"},{"start":9388.624,"end":9401.008,"text":"因為我們要向國際社會表現台灣團結的決心因為我們內部分裂互相吵架這是中國最想看到的所以我在這裡要再次譴責台灣最大在野黨的主席鄭麗文竟然在國內去祭拜共匪敵我不分連自己國民黨黨人都看不下去了我希望我們要持續的來團結展現出台灣守護民主在世界上面我們是優良的模範生的決心謝謝主委謝謝委員"},{"start":9419.463,"end":9424.808,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員接下來請林倩琦委員發言好謝謝主席我們的黃昭偉請陸委會邱主委邱主委"},{"start":9449.824,"end":9466.771,"text":"主委好本席今天要來為一些陳情案來請命今天第一個主題本席要針對限制公務員復路跟大陸來台的一個交流被你們限制的一個寒產效應來做一個討論"},{"start":9469.229,"end":9493.023,"text":"本席認為這樣這個狀況有點像依法行政結果呢引發了一些寒蟬效應的一個老民的措施行政院在9月22號通過了公務人員違法違規附錄建議懲戒懲處的一個原則那麼適用對像闊級各級學校的公務員那從公立大學的校長和院長主任到國中小的主任"},{"start":9493.743,"end":9517.118,"text":"組長只要兼行政職的那都需要事先申請那返台後還要再詳述事由與行程那麼為師情節重大一次還要被記過一次要記兩個大過那這樣一個你們這樣一個規定那還導致不僅是私立學校或等於是學校各界大家不是那麼清楚的"},{"start":9517.478,"end":9535.154,"text":"或者是呢本來就有這樣一個規劃的結果搞到大家因為月英效應結果都不敢去那麼你們說這樣子是依法行政可是整個社會的觀感會感覺到是依忠誠察核之名在實行思想審查那本席這邊提出一個數據監察院報告就說過去十年影響到這個"},{"start":9541.52,"end":9549.95,"text":"犯規的這個公務員大概差不多300多人但是呢 這占所有的人大概99%其實都是正常的可是這麼少數人卻影響到讓大家都要為這些工業來負擔我覺得這樣子對民眾真的是很"},{"start":9560.021,"end":9579.162,"text":"如果你們真的要防避應該就個案懲處的適當而不是來以集體的預防為由結果整個只要想要去的公教人員都產生了不忠誠的一個標誌所以呢本席這邊要提出來的是尤其是今年那個在教師節左右我們都"},{"start":9580.391,"end":9592.679,"text":"敬佩孔子嘛那我們很多不管是宗教或者是文化上我們的教師節是因為孔子這樣一個概念而來的但是呢你們的這個因為你們這樣一個規定導致在教師節不僅是有一些要赴港澳去參加儒家文化論壇的或者是孔子紀念典禮的很多人因為你們這個懲戒的生肖日期在即而紛紛婉拒行程"},{"start":9606.667,"end":9616.23,"text":"那麼還有就是本來常年跟我們有一些交流的甚至像孔子像要來台灣的或者是要來台灣參與孔子相關的這樣一個祭典的人也紛紛被你們這個很多的門檻而限制結果導致有一些活動就辦不成"},{"start":9623.993,"end":9645.574,"text":"所以你們這樣的氛圍不僅是讓很多人心生畏懼那也讓我們在文化跟學術的一個交流上日益凍結好 政治上可能有很多的問題可是你不覺得透過民間的文化交流大家多一些對話 相互理解嗎所以這樣的政策真的強化了國安嗎還是讓很單純的想要交流的教育工作者"},{"start":9645.954,"end":9666.078,"text":"成為被懷疑的對象本席要請教的是陸委會是不是曾評估這樣一個懲處的原則對學術教育文化實質的影響甚至本席剛才所講的月運效應第二個部分是如果到大陸去參加研討會或宗教活動也沒有什麼政治行為是不是有一些比較彈性的審查機制"},{"start":9668.519,"end":9693.551,"text":"第三個部分是針對大家對於那個相關政策有違反法律的保留原則之處是不是可以請你們把政策的評估提供給本席要不然本席經常在民間都聽到陸委會的規定就搞得我們不敢去或是我們打算要去呢結果因為這個規定然後後續會有一些影響或者是大家有可能會犯規或犯法因為大部分的人沒時間每天在那邊管你的法規啦"},{"start":9695.936,"end":9707.965,"text":"大部分的人都是良民所以大家因為這樣子的你們的政策而導致大家的這樣心生恐懼你們真的是令人感覺很老民委員我們可以回答你嗎謝謝委員委員對這個問題有充分的理解但是說我們進行這個對我們的軍公教同仁俘虜"},{"start":9718.992,"end":9729.878,"text":"設置這個不當的障礙是真的沒有我們也沒有增加任何的法律只是在落實法律本席真的是有被反應你知道嗎我知道 但是可見過去落實這個法律確實有一段差距就是要依法請假要讓服務機關同意我們像委員任教的大學像我們的系所院長他們都比較教育人員十二指等"},{"start":9746.667,"end":9752.875,"text":"我們學校其實都還很認真的遵守你們的法律結果規定到每個人到最後通通都不敢去這樣沒有 只要完成了這個請假的程序讓這個主管機關能夠完成許可的話就沒有問題"},{"start":9763.849,"end":9773.982,"text":"所以我們在這個過程當中強力宣導一下因為大家都聽到你們這個政策我們還警示了很多暴露的人一些風險我要跟委員報告其實我們這個法醫也在保護我們的軍公教朋友不要被"},{"start":9780.35,"end":9798.593,"text":"中國大陸有心人士的滲透 拉攏乃至於變成在地協力者甚至變成間諜而不自知我們要跟我們的軍工教朋友宣導這個事情也是在保護他們我覺得你後面這個部分可能可以多講而不是在前面的那種規定上讓大家不是所從這也是我們的配套措施"},{"start":9800.315,"end":9820.371,"text":"還有就是大陸來這邊要跟我們的一些交流比如說像孔子像等等這些就是他們要進來那我們在反對或者是門檻真的很高那常常你們在那個時間限制上或者是實時的活動上讓大家都趕不及啊您剛剛講跟孔子有關的文化交流被阻礙像我們就沒有"},{"start":9821.172,"end":9834.426,"text":"接觸我們處長說沒有收到這種個案如果有這種事情我們只要是健康有趣的交流我們都會來協助唯有這個個案有人跟你陳情遇到障礙你也可以告訴我們我們來協助他所以本席這邊要講的是你們的障礙很高結果導致我們沒有障礙很高我們這是合理的"},{"start":9842.955,"end":9844.696,"text":"就隔幾家程序就好了就變成從時間去阻礙到本來應該辦的期程本席再給你一個實質上本席這邊所聽到的本席在五月份參加世界壯年賽得獎的當然很高興可是本席也希望全世界包括中國大陸的好手都能夠來"},{"start":9863.604,"end":9886.281,"text":"但是本席就有聽到就是你們因為那個申請的程序常常在你們在前一天給人家通知或者是門檻很高別人不能來結果通知的時候運動員不是說你這樣馬上今天跟他通知他明天就能夠來你知道這其實也影響到一些人的參賽我知道委員你應該去問新北市或是台北市對這個案子就壯年運動我們是請全力來協助他們"},{"start":9889.744,"end":9896.269,"text":"但是同樣的這個一個申請的程序本席這邊聽到很多你們在政策上或許有這樣一個規定只要有提了報名我們經過我們必要的審查我們都會盡快的放棄同時也是過去式但是本席這邊要提醒的就是說你們在政策規定上然後配套的技術性的這個內容"},{"start":9914.501,"end":9938.679,"text":"可不可以變明一點會所以要去大陸你們搞得大家都很害怕說好像去了會犯法沒有這回事大陸要來的呢我們只是提醒他的風險保護他自己大陸要來的他們也好多門檻就搞到時間上也來不及這個是不是你們在執行的時候可以了解一下而且注意一下你們在這個政策上然後實際的運作的技術上是不是能夠變明一點好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9942.592,"end":9960.249,"text":"謝謝林建祺委員的發言接下來我們請葉元之委發言謝主席麻煩請入委會主委請求主委"},{"start":9965.046,"end":9978.264,"text":"葉委員好主委好 先跟主委請教一下現在按照陸委會的規定有很多教職公立的教職要去大陸事先要許可然後事後回來也要詳述他行程的狀況對不對"},{"start":9980.718,"end":10003.535,"text":"跟委員 他只要符合請假程序當然學校主管要兼任行政職我知道其中是有包括國中小的教學組長跟文書組長也都一樣對不對是 只要有兼任行政職因為他們就是被以前針對公務機關大概公務人員是檢證實質等以上才需要報備"},{"start":10005.816,"end":10031.114,"text":"跟委員報告我們的法律講得很清楚除了這個11指等以上的要內政部許可沒有涉密的這個11指等以下的基層公務人員都要經過這個內政部他有一個行作業要點必須要由主管機關來同意才能付入同意是準價還是說因為他是去大陸所以才要許可"},{"start":10031.534,"end":10053.446,"text":"要附入同意附入同意以前就要嗎以前這是現行規定現行規定都要對一直都要是那為什麼最近忽然間特別要再拿出來強調跟委員報告是這樣因為過去我們各機關沒有在管在落實它有些機關重視有些機關落實那有機關它就比較忽視也沒有重視那"},{"start":10054.827,"end":10073.607,"text":"所以我們被監察院糾正我覺得這個部分因為可能之前就如你所講的啦大家沒有很重視原因是什麼因為這個規定很無聊嘛你看以前是規定說11值等以上要去嘛那11值等以下也要報告那你具體把它講出來像我看到連什麼國中小教學組長"},{"start":10074.807,"end":10100.863,"text":"他們的職等校長國小校長才九職等啊組長可能八職等啊他們去也都要經過許可那這種許可因為他們還是我們許可意義在哪裡嗎那種感覺上好像好像他很怕他們去洩密還是就是把人家當很不尊重嘛如果他是一個老師他可能就去玩而已啊然後等一下要暑假然後對啊有一些風景不錯要去看一看然後"},{"start":10101.403,"end":10114.876,"text":"又要許可什麼又很怕說被點名做記號乾脆不要去對岸了那就去其他國家我覺得這個規定很無聊如果說是規定版就在那邊只是之前沒有執行那也反映出這個規定很無聊嘛大家才覺得不需要執行"},{"start":10115.492,"end":10143.435,"text":"那既然這個事情被浮出檯面大家討論我甚至覺得說這個應該要放寬放在兩岸條例第九條這個應該是要這應該是要放寬否則的話連老師這種可能八子等組長都要被約束去玩一下都要被說要許我我覺得太嚴格了這個是可以考慮放寬然後第二個請教一下陸委會明年預算是"},{"start":10144.284,"end":10147.712,"text":"本來今年是8億多嘛明年要變到10億4千多萬增加2億是吧"},{"start":10148.72,"end":10174.436,"text":"跟委員報告因為今年的預算被立法院刪的幅度是陸委會創會以來最大的我們但也感謝我們後續的這個解凍預算跟追加減沒有啦我問你是不是嘛我跟你確定客觀事實而已啦差距很大是因為刪得太厲害了差距很大但是你實際上去檢視陸委會的內容我發現很多都跟抗中保台有關"},{"start":10175.496,"end":10200.332,"text":"譬如說要增進青少年嗜毒大陸的智能要強化大陸人事來台的管制反制認知作戰現在陸委會幾乎都在考抗中保台比較多等於我們大概10億裡面很大一部分都在搞抗中保台有一些部分我覺得你的業務已經跟其他單位都有一點重複譬如說你說增進青少年嗜毒大陸智能這本來教育部說要做"},{"start":10201.004,"end":10225.68,"text":"他要編四讀大陸的教材那這不就跟你的一樣嗎是 他有時候會請我們協助我們很願意跟他們一起配合再來就是陸委會出國像去年出國七次有五次去美國去美國是要幹嘛你們去美國跟委員報告我們去美國次數沒那麼多像我們這兩年我們是帶一年去一次我不是說你啦 我說整個陸委會"},{"start":10227.592,"end":10252.354,"text":"根據決算報告出國七次有五次去美國跟委員報告國際社會對我們台海的風險對中國大陸對於我們怎麼處理兩岸問題他們都高度興趣所以經常到陸委會來做參訪王委員會邀我們去做回訪所以陸委會現在主要去美國也是在了解兩岸局勢多艱困"},{"start":10253.888,"end":10280.888,"text":"大陸對我們的威脅啊陸委會現在都在做這些事情就對了我們爭取美方對於我們的支持是非常重要的我們現在陸委會啊你看那個預算的分配啊跟之前陸委會啊成立的目的啊已經完全不一樣名稱都叫陸委會做的事情已經完全不一樣就是現在是主要以抗中保台國安為主啊那既然是這樣我問你一個時事的問題因為最近大家都很痛恨那個詐騙集團嘛那太子集團"},{"start":10282.234,"end":10300.059,"text":"最近也引爆話題那其中這兩天我看到有國安人士對媒體放話就說他可能是大陸統戰的一部分因為中國大陸援助柬埔寨兩億多美金裡面有一億七千萬是由太子集團付給柬埔寨那這部分陸委會的掌握是怎樣"},{"start":10301.001,"end":10326.568,"text":"根文報告我有問過同仁對這個案子跟陸委會有沒有關包括是不是有大陸籍的人員入境我們有協助這個案子我們會裡面都沒有就是說毫無所惜沒有透過兩岸人權我剛剛是講說他被國安人士認為是同戰因為他協助中國大陸去"},{"start":10327.714,"end":10339.791,"text":"去對柬埔寨外交補助2億多其中1億多是經過太子集團這國安人士講的媒體的報導這兩天應該因為你們現在都在搞抗中保台對於這樣的訊息應該就算你們業務之一了"},{"start":10340.461,"end":10366.25,"text":"所以你的掌握是怎樣我們對這個案子完全沒掌握我沒有關注但是跟我們關係不大因為我問了同仁現在陸委會的定位真的很奇怪真的是非常奇怪就是說以前大家認為陸委會是負責兩岸關係兩岸關係當然越好越正常越好陸委會的業績應該是越好"},{"start":10367.695,"end":10378.978,"text":"現在陸委會這一塊完全放掉都在委員不是這樣我們還是希望兩岸能夠交流你希望我們也是保護你是用祈禱的沒有我們用具體的作為我剛剛講從講預算講你現在業務的重點然後講到你們做的事情其實看得出來"},{"start":10385.29,"end":10413.89,"text":"現在沒有在做什麼希望兩岸關係好的事情主要都是在防止中共有認知作戰啊制毒大陸制人都在抗中保台嘛那既然你都要搞抗中保台你就變成國安的一部分我們對中共對於我們的各種複合性的施壓我們不能視而不見所以我說現在這個就是你的重點嘛可是如果說這是你的重點那對於國人比較關心的比如說詐騙集團假設是中共跟中共有關那這部分你們應該要很早就要掌握啊因為是你的主要業務之一啊"},{"start":10414.417,"end":10432.066,"text":"然後如果你們早點掌握體會國安單位那國人就不會搞不好就很多人不用受害啊因為因為他總共被扣45億啊對不對那所以你如果你陸委會正式你說我要轉型成的抗中保台的一線作戰單位那也是民進黨政府也是尊重你們嗎"},{"start":10432.745,"end":10461.414,"text":"但是那你要做一些民眾關心的事啊委員你講的很重要就是被詐騙我們兩岸都有詐騙的問題要解決所以就是在共同打擊犯罪這方面我們跟對岸共同來解決詐騙的問題我們還是持續透過管道再跟對岸來呼籲一起查辦犯罪我覺得做得不夠啦至少我剛剛講那個案例你就說你沒掌握嗎"},{"start":10462.564,"end":10477.402,"text":"就是那個個案太子集團那就最近大家最關心的案例啊你都沒有講過但是跟陸委會的職權是目前是沒有相關可能是外交部比較陸委會的職權都是你不斷的延伸的你擴張的對不對"},{"start":10478.922,"end":10498.334,"text":"什麼增進這個都是你延伸的嘛很多都是你延伸出來所以你現在變成抗中保台單位啊以前我們對陸委會認知也不是啊沒有我們是守護台灣我們也維護台海的平穩定盤那你既然你現在想要做這一塊那你就要可能國人關心的東西你也要幫忙負擔一點嘛是是好謝謝"},{"start":10502.157,"end":10519.323,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的資訊接下來我們請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在現在請羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員羅廷偉委員不在林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在現在請翁曉琳委員發言好謝謝主席我們有請邱主委請邱主委"},{"start":10535.393,"end":10554.711,"text":"公務員好是 邱主委好我們知道賴慶德總統他在114年3月的時候提出賴17條那麼說現在到中國大陸去旅遊的風險越來越高而且還引用陸委會的資料稱說失聯 被留置 被盤查被關押的案件上升"},{"start":10555.912,"end":10570.387,"text":"但是我们看看你们今年10月份陆委会的发言人在10月份的记者会公布的数字说现在大概失联的有61人遭留置盘查19人被限制人身自由132人合计是212人"},{"start":10575.231,"end":10587.602,"text":"在根据被限制自由的132人当中其中诈骗案件因为诈骗案件是有而被留置限制自由大概有93人高达70%"},{"start":10589.463,"end":10618.577,"text":"那其他的可能还有些刑事案件可能因为逃债或者是要逃避一些司法一些追溯所以到大陆去的然后当然还有少数的一些宗教问题的室友然后被留置盘查那其中大概有9个人是一贯道的道青然后真正因为可能政治国案事件的政治性案件的其实也只有一人这个情况很严重吗"},{"start":10619.673,"end":10628.459,"text":"跟委員報告委員站是9月底我們有一個10月底的那個人數更是增加了20幾位總共達到233我現在是根據你們10月份的記者會10月記者會的數字這個數字每個月都增加20個然後今年的數字是去年的三倍"},{"start":10637.546,"end":10646.51,"text":"所以你增加20個很多嗎?限制自由嗎?還是說是整體?都有 包括失聯的 刑方不明的所以總統統是增加多少?10月份的時候是增加多少?這個是他講的詐騙案件 是不是這樣?這是他歸納的"},{"start":10653.453,"end":10665.981,"text":"但是是不是真的是詐騙案件我們要攤開司法這有沒有相關的一些其他的刑事案件所以你們認為說大陸那邊他們會亂逮這個詐騙犯是嗎會把真的所謂的政治性的人物把他當成詐騙犯去抓起來嗎我們希望這些案子坦白說我想很多的台灣的老百姓會很高興這些詐騙犯是被大陸那邊先把他先扣留下來限制他的自由不會回到台灣國內來詐騙"},{"start":10683.833,"end":10709.656,"text":"对你们很多的这个这都是你们自己提供的数据是不是诈骗案件你们会不晓得吗我现在要谈的是说就你们现在不断的在谈到大陆去有多危险多危险那真正可能会因为政治性问题因为他的政治思想等等可能跟大陆那里有所不同的会被盘查会被滞留的可能也就只有一个人而已"},{"start":10711.082,"end":10726.584,"text":"被盤查留置詢問的也許就十幾二十個人請問邱主委你知道我們現在台灣同胞我們到美國海關入境可能會被盤查留置的人數有多少嗎"},{"start":10729.136,"end":10752.523,"text":"是国外的我们没有这个数字是我建议之后外交部应该提供相关统计数据我们国人到其他国家入境时候被海关盘查的人数有多少我告诉你肯定是高过19位到美国海关会被留下来这个留置盘查询问的绝对是远远超过20个人"},{"start":10754.185,"end":10764.65,"text":"所以我們現在要講說現在到大陸去好危險好危險然後陸委會呢就做了一大堆的什麼登錄系統登錄系統大家登錄進去之後那請問陸委會有什麼作為嗎跟委員你們看到這些數字之後你們的作為是什麼"},{"start":10770.45,"end":10789.233,"text":"是 我们当然鼓励我们民众附路啊能够加入我们的动态登录系统我现在不是讲登录系统而是登录之后真正被限制自由真正被留置盘查失联的那你们有什么作为我们政府有什么作为我们现在司法互助等于是"},{"start":10789.673,"end":10817.081,"text":"断掉吗没有我们司法互助仍然在依照既有的这个沟通机制在沟通讨论这些问题我在司法法治委员会我非常清楚我们现在司法互助就算是有沟通但是在真的引渡回来的人有多少位非常非常少啊那么委会在这方面有做了些什么努力吗有希望把我们这些限制自由的或失联的人然后希望能够透过什么机制让他们回来吗"},{"start":10817.611,"end":10836.564,"text":"至少我們在那裡限制我們人身自由或是失聯的我們希望每個個案對岸都能夠跟我們配合讓我們的家屬知道也讓我們可以對他給予司法方面的協助就是說你們這個大陸的人身安全的風險是不是越來越高"},{"start":10837.805,"end":10857.381,"text":"这个是我们根据也是你们的网站上面海基会协处台商经贸纠纷案件的处理统计表从98年当时是最高人数是353人一直到现在从110年近5年来我们看到那个人身安全的风险是越来越低可是你们却说是越来越高"},{"start":10859.195,"end":10882.933,"text":"我们再来看有关于宗教的部分宗教交流风险也是实际上现在可能因为宗教原因被限制自由的人数也不过13人可是我们两岸在过去这一年宗教交流的总人次是16244人所以被限制的比例也不过就是千分之八"},{"start":10883.934,"end":10899.746,"text":"我们如果说在扣掉可能1万到道歉的9人他限制的比例是百分千分之二非常低那你要告诉我们大家说宗教所有国人妇禄的交流风险都非常高这是事实吗"},{"start":10900.466,"end":10921.393,"text":"跟委員報告我們就算是一個人我們都很關注特別是因為宗教的因素特別是一貫道包括最近也有衍生到其他的基督教的教派他們都被下令不能從事傳教的事情那麼對於一貫道的人他們更是用中共的刑法三百條"},{"start":10923.774,"end":10937.387,"text":"這個來判處這個都是我們非常關注的這些人道問題謝謝您的回答我想陸委會不要只會關注這不是你們如果只會關注我們每個人都可以關注任何部會都可以關注你陸委會最重要職責是什麼我們要減少國人"},{"start":10940.169,"end":10942.39,"text":"然後讓身在那邊可能被限制自由被留置盤查的這些國人能夠讓他們回來可是你們現在完全做不到我最後要再講的就是陸委會沒有錯你們有責任要揭露風險但是你們不能製造恐慌"},{"start":10956.067,"end":10972.655,"text":"安全是建立在真相 風險是不能夠靠想像你們現在有沒有針對附入的失聯個案有建立聯繫窗口各位報告我們都有我們跟國人的風險的提醒也是基於客觀的數字"},{"start":10974.563,"end":10992.239,"text":"剛剛說了每個月增加20幾個我們增加一個就很嚴重何況每個月都增加20幾個尤其是今年以來我想在這件事情上面如果您認為增加一個兩個就很嚴重的話我建議你們在行政院匯報上面一定要提醒外交部"},{"start":10992.779,"end":11011.156,"text":"我们国人在其他国家的海关被留置的情形是不是远比去大陆要严重很多相关数据全部要提供出来好让所有的民众知道到底到大陆去旅游去交流是不是危险还是说这个基本上只是你陆委会打的认知作战没有"},{"start":11011.556,"end":11028.885,"text":"跟委員報告不是正常我們都會協助我們每個個案的家庭謝謝翁曉琳委員的質詢謝謝邱主委接下來我們請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在高金素梅委員高金素梅委員高金素梅委員不在下面請李博義委員發言有請邱主委請邱主委"},{"start":11043.345,"end":11062.691,"text":"李委好主委我想要講一下就是台灣跟歐洲的狀況那台灣面臨的狀況那講一下韌性那另外講一下戰爭什麼是戰爭那臨日攻擊裡面有一句名言戰爭早就開始了那有什麼戰呢"},{"start":11064.745,"end":11086.172,"text":"以社群方面來講的話有認知作戰我等一下舉抖音為例那以法律方面來講的話聯合國的2758決議那世界各國包含美國包含歐洲議會包含加拿大對2758號的決議的反應是什麼那包含我們立法院針對"},{"start":11088.545,"end":11114.883,"text":"台湾的国会针对国会议员在言论上被中国恐吓这个恐吓战这个内容是什么我觉得我们都必须要来跟国人来说明清楚主委你认同吗我刚刚讲的这些各种形态的这些作战其实中国对台工作人员主委大概有多少人"},{"start":11117.308,"end":11143.894,"text":"從事統戰的對台工作人員我們過去有做一個除了解放軍之外中國大陸從他條條塊塊各機關就要涉及台灣人的事務如果負責有統戰任務我們有學者推估有60萬人次我上一次的資訊是40到60萬沒有錯如果60萬人次的話平均是一個人來負責四個台灣人到五個台灣人就可以了對不對是這麼說"},{"start":11146.584,"end":11171.361,"text":"那很可怕那所以他不會只有在軍事上他還有法律上我先從2758號決議裡面那中國單方面擴大解釋聯合國2758號決議的內容那各世界各國的國會做了什麼事情歐洲議會是說要求歐盟的外交及經濟要嚇阻中國而且認為這個是過度的解讀"},{"start":11174.98,"end":11176.643,"text":"加拿大眾議會也在2024年11月通過眾議院將繼續支持台灣有意參加國際組織"},{"start":11185.322,"end":11199.136,"text":"那在英國的下議會也就是英國的國會在2024年11月也對未確立中華人民共和國對台主權並且否定北京對聯大2758號的決議的扭曲那美國聯邦眾議會也強調2758號決議並未處理台灣及台灣人民在聯合國的代表權的問題 來"},{"start":11210.299,"end":11238.311,"text":"世界各國的國會那國會當然這是一個這些都是民主國家的國會都對2758號有這個解釋而且是針對中國的片面的解釋那我們的立法院我們做不到因為從去年開始立法院藍白多數我們一直提議要通過這一個對中國錯誤解讀的決議文我們希望有一個台灣版本但是我們的立法院做不到相同的"},{"start":11240.547,"end":11267.986,"text":"賴總統要建議韓國瑜院長國會議員被中共通緝發布全球通緝國會議長應該有個態度吧做不到來 主委是 更委員報告我想中共的跨國鎮壓不管是針對我們國家的公務人員或者是我們國軍官兵還是沈伯陽委員"},{"start":11268.919,"end":11296.826,"text":"他這個就是針對台灣集體的一種脅迫也就是說他企圖透過跨國鎮壓來對台灣進行恫嚇跟分化那我們反而要團結在一起一致對外我們反而要我相信國人會團結在一起讓我們更有韌性來對抗他們要更有韌性來對抗他們但是我們自己立法院沒有辦法做成多數的決議這裡我在我表示非常的遺憾那接下來我還要講"},{"start":11297.745,"end":11324.721,"text":"中國國民黨主席他去參拜吳石就是當時在國民政府的將領他來到台灣在1950年被槍決但是他是用白色恐怖的名義去祭拜他其實當時有很多因為國民黨政權他想要抓的一些知識分子"},{"start":11325.677,"end":11335.163,"text":"他把它一概而論並到這裡面來同時在TikTok在抖音那在或者是臉書的reels"},{"start":11335.905,"end":11363.858,"text":"也出現了大量的這個當初的包含這些中國間諜等等的這一些非常感人的故事其實大量出現在這些短片裡面的其實在這一次中國國民黨的選舉當主席的選舉裡面我相信被抖音影響的程度還是蠻高的那我希望陸委會這個相關的機關也要有相關的這些研究跟一些想法"},{"start":11364.81,"end":11384.223,"text":"那其實從這些不管是臉書Meta其實他的前執行長在民視的社群裡面那也對於中國的言論的控管跟台灣的用戶的管控其實都有提出一些指控現在還沒有被證實但是我相信我們這些臉書的流量包含更嚴重的TikTok的這些演算法"},{"start":11385.095,"end":11413.039,"text":"嚴重影響 嚴重想要引導就是認知作戰的部分那我想陸委會在極少的資源底下我們還是要對民眾來做出這一些提醒是 我們會全力的來盡陸委會的能量來做社會提醒包括您剛剛提到錄製APP包括中國大陸的小紅書包括像新加坡的TikTok或是抖音"},{"start":11413.519,"end":11438.496,"text":"那這些可能都有竊取我們各自的疑慮其實我覺得竊取各自這是個人必須要很注意的一點之外內容對 內容它可能會用這個管道來混淆我們國內的團結製造我們的分裂甚至用來借選介入我們自由民主憲政的運作所以會帶來國安的風險"},{"start":11440.376,"end":11456.904,"text":"那這個部分呢我想我們跟各部會都在積極演繹我們有沒有能力來做這個反制我想我們最近都在跟各部會討論我們不能只說你不要看你這個內容這可能會竊取你的個資等等我們要有能力來"},{"start":11458.523,"end":11483.433,"text":"反制這些大量的認知作戰這個認知作戰透過中資的APP來擴大對台灣人心的混淆製造我們的矛盾影響我們的自由民主的生活方式這一點非常嚴重所以這個部分相關部門正在研討積極的防範措施包括"},{"start":11484.633,"end":11502.301,"text":"來立法來規範這就是我們努力的方向回到我剛開頭的那句話戰爭早就開始了不管是社群戰 認知戰 心理戰 法律戰戰爭早就開始了全民必須要有韌性來防衛是謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝李博義召委的諮詢來我們請黃建斌召委 謝謝"},{"start":11517.522,"end":11520.623,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請我們陸委會的邱主委來請邱主委黃委員好主委好主委本席今天要跟你討論的議題就是目前兩岸的這個關係冰凍之下那許多民眾無奈的心聲那就是兩岸的觀光的議題是"},{"start":11538.772,"end":11560.758,"text":"本席要強調接下來我們要討論的方向不是政治議題是有關產業經濟的問題以及相關從業人員的生計的問題本席也了解主委身為民進黨的政府的內閣有些話不得不說有些話也因為有壓力也沒有辦法說但接下來討論我們希望主委能夠放下我們執政黨的一些意識形態"},{"start":11561.851,"end":11576.483,"text":"我們回歸陸輝主委的一個職責我們一起來思考我們怎麼樣在實務上來做能夠真的來促進兩岸交流同時也幫到我們國內的這些業者那我想東部地區的好山好水"},{"start":11577.074,"end":11594.522,"text":"是全台灣最美麗的淨土過去我們國民黨執政時期的時期每年的那個入客好幾百萬人來到這邊來旅遊其中花東地區更是許多入客的觀光的熱點那帶動我們觀光產業蓬勃發展但是後來隨著疫情的來臨"},{"start":11595.342,"end":11617.212,"text":"然後加上民進黨政府上台之後我們兩岸的關係冰凍我們入客人數呈現這個雪崩式的下降到目前為止還看不到恢復的曙光也沒有看到兩岸之間我們有任何對話的管道根據我們交通部觀光署的統計今年前七個月台灣出境旅遊人數破千萬人次但反觀"},{"start":11618.112,"end":11639.529,"text":"同時起入境遊客只有478萬人次這根本當時在政府喊出1000萬國際旅客來台的目標不但確定退票而且落差很大但我們進一步去分析這個入境的國際旅客以這個來源來說日本的旅客大概是76.6萬港澳地區是72.6萬那韓國是58萬人次"},{"start":11642.651,"end":11647.892,"text":"那對於我們日韓日韓的遊客高居前三名我們一點都不意外但對第二名的這個"},{"start":11649.246,"end":11676.427,"text":"港澳的遊客常常被我們忽略其實他們不但有消費力地緣關係也非常的近加上他也不受到入客觀光旅遊政策的限制因此本席認為針對我們港澳地區的旅客我們政府是值得花更多的心思去吸引他們來台灣來旅遊在我們2010年國民黨執政時期從大陸到花東以及香港到花東的包機旅遊正式啟動"},{"start":11677.548,"end":11706.394,"text":"這樣做有什麼好處因為主要就是說我們台灣主要的機場都在西部我們都在西部那過去港澳遊客來因為可能交通的成本還有時間的考量都主要在西部旅遊那透過包機職場讓入客這些港入澳的遊客能夠降低他的時間成本我想這個對於我們台中許多景點發動的景點對我們來說也有新鮮感也有機會提升來台的這個意願跟這個頻率也帶動更多人潮"},{"start":11707.58,"end":11735.639,"text":"來這邊來旅遊能夠直接帶動我們在地的這個產業那當時的這個包機執行能夠促成就是我們專案的陸委會交通部還有台東縣政府還有其他許多業者共同攜手合作那這幾年台東縣政府也其實不斷透過努力來推動這個國際包機的執行像是越南 馬來西亞 泰國都有因此本席也相信說台東縣政府絕對有非常高的意願來促進港澳包機執行來吸引更多的這個國際的旅客"},{"start":11737.2,"end":11761.298,"text":"我們像是去年12月就重啟這個花蓮香港之岸的班機但是因為也缺乏足夠的這個誘因導致這個不堪虧損明年1月可能就停航了那這個非常可惜那因為這條光是這一條航線它一年的時間大概就創造上億元的這個觀光產值這對我們目前花東的觀光來講是非常重大的一個強勁劑那一直本席具體的建議"},{"start":11762.008,"end":11788.917,"text":"我們針對我們港澳的旅客的包機直航陸委會交通部還有地方政府我們共同來研商我們透過民間協定的方式提供相關的獎勵的機制我們一起恢復這個港澳包機直航花東地區帶動更多的這個國際觀光客來台我想這個不僅僅是能夠促進兩岸關係和緩的一個方式最重要的是可以幫助花東觀光產業"},{"start":11790.519,"end":11795.704,"text":"我們會提供比較完整的報告包括我們最近也跟港方在討論更多的業者能夠對花東投下更多的心力來促成這個港澳的旅客能夠到"},{"start":11815.64,"end":11837.815,"text":"花東有包機剛剛提到的那個香花包機因為客源不足他可能也會影響這個旅客再到台東去所以我們希望把它組建起來另外因為花蓮最近他比較多那個事故那我們也希望不要停可以到台東那這部分我們也在跟"},{"start":11839.076,"end":11854.422,"text":"香港的有關方面還有他們業者特別是旅遊業者還有航空業者能夠把這個眼光投射到南部的台東就是好山好水看能不能更多人能夠去這個台東觀光也看看評估這個香港澳門到台東之間的觀光包機的可能性"},{"start":11861.364,"end":11882.41,"text":"我們最近也都有在跟業者來討論我們希望能促成另外就兩岸觀光的部分不是沒有管道那現在兩岸處理觀光是觀光小兩會我們是台旅會他們是海旅會我們就希望他們能夠溝通針對旅遊安全品質穩定性公平性的議題討論完就來開放這樣對台灣不論是消費者業者對我們整個國家安全社會的這個外部成本的"},{"start":11890.993,"end":11911.829,"text":"整個安排上會比較妥當我們會全力以赴謝謝委員主委這個部分真的要再多請主委多費心台東的產業很單純是農業跟觀光他都需要大量的觀光客進來這邊消費那我們也期待我們主委跟我們其他各部會一起來努力專用地方來合作我們讓台東的這個觀光產業讓花東的觀光產業能夠在"},{"start":11915.236,"end":11928.902,"text":"我們接下來的面對整個國際趨勢能夠有更好的機會來發展那再一次的這邊再拜託主委謝謝主委那也將我們的這個兩個禮拜內將個評估報告送到本席辦公室是謝謝主委謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝謝謝黃建斌召委我們請吳祺銘委員"},{"start":11944.434,"end":11949.739,"text":"好 謝謝召委 我們與會同仁請我們陸委會我們的邱主委請邱主委主委好 主委好 主委我看今天大家都是關心兩岸的觀光的問題那本席這邊有觀光署的資料"},{"start":11964.741,"end":11989.854,"text":"我們在7月份光是出境的人口成長到1087萬人次出國然後進來入境的才有435萬那嫌疏真的有過大因為我們出去旅遊的人數跟進來都不成比例那我看我們那個小三通小三通"},{"start":11991.161,"end":12010.851,"text":"就是七月份36.5萬人次那雖然是成長但是他畢竟過來的只是在金門跟馬祖那這個你在入境台灣的人數還是相對的減少那是不是未來有沒有希望說未來開放入客人來台灣這樣才能平衡我們的出入境"},{"start":12018.1,"end":12024.696,"text":"的平衡點讓台灣的觀光產業能帶動起來這是我們陸委會要去研究"},{"start":12025.259,"end":12053.791,"text":"是跟委員報告我們都有跟包括觀光組跟相關的部會在討論這個兩岸是不是透過觀光小兩會的溝通來讓更多的中國大陸的旅客到台灣來跟委員報告我們的政策是這樣我們歡迎入客來台的政策沒有改變我們也是希望能夠透過觀光小兩會討論完儘速恢復兩岸的觀光的交流"},{"start":12054.771,"end":12075.174,"text":"我們希望藉由這次開放的機會把過去入客來台的一些可能的亂象還有對業者沒有保障的說停就停 說斷就斷業者血本無歸還有光光一條龍的現象這個對於光光的公平性也不"},{"start":12076.135,"end":12093.001,"text":"另外對於觀光的安全兩岸旅遊的安全跟品質我們希望透過這個能夠小兩會溝通再來開放這樣對台灣最能夠有保障我要跟委員報告我們也曾經要做民調在上個月有做民調也有73%的民眾支持政府目前我們先透過觀光小兩會先溝通再來開放的做法這樣最能夠很穩健"},{"start":12106.187,"end":12124.102,"text":"在這個之前我們操之在我的部分我們一方面讓其他在第三國第三地的大陸籍人士能夠透過我們外港到我們台灣來那像今年的人數就比疫情之前還要多那包括這個"},{"start":12126.585,"end":12136.881,"text":"從金門馬祖進來的這些旅客我們也在優化相關的措施那這些操作在我部分之外呢我們希望中國大陸能夠"},{"start":12138.98,"end":12144.565,"text":"對於我們提出來的這個觀光小兩會的協商能夠重視至少可以回復我們透過溝通再來開放入客來台我想這個對兩岸都是有比較好的畢竟兩岸已經很多年沒有接觸我們如何讓"},{"start":12159.276,"end":12171.188,"text":"觀光的旅遊能夠更熟悉彼此對於急難救助需要幫忙的人能夠啟動建立相關的機制都是需要由觀光小兩會來討論以上"},{"start":12173.953,"end":12198.645,"text":"好 主委真的你也是很用心但是我們還是要想出辦法只要不涉及統戰的話是不是大陸也能組團就開放的幅度把它拉大因為這樣才能平衡我們整個觀光的產業因為我們也不要限制說因為有很多宗教的交流體育的交流也有很多只要不涉及我們的政治不涉及他們的統戰"},{"start":12199.73,"end":12204.453,"text":"那我們這應該是我們還鼓勵他們才對啊是委員講的很好委員講除了觀光之外有很多的專業交流團各式各樣的商務人士我們都只要是沒有統戰的經過我們輔導的我們都積極的來協助他們設計一套機制嘛然後你審核的速度也要快等到幾天了你才說這個不行那個不行這樣影響他們的行程影響他們"},{"start":12229.168,"end":12236.292,"text":"一些大家都是旅遊業嘛那旅遊業他們的新生應該你也要廣納旅遊業他們的新生來做總和嘛只要不涉及統戰不涉及我們的政治我們都是放開手吧讓我們的產業帶動起來這才是我們的根本嘛我們跟海基會也跟旅遊這個業的這些各個團體我們經常都跟他們座談一起討論"},{"start":12257.402,"end":12266.533,"text":"其實絕大部分的旅遊業者也都支持政府目前的做法我們會持續努力謝謝委員最主要是我們這個餅要把它做大然後本市還關心就是我們這個電商平台電商平台現在我們是會做租溫的問題吧我們的疫情的問題那很多的"},{"start":12277.728,"end":12299.651,"text":"平台他們所包裹進來的很多都是我們要管制的有很多有弱品的產產因為我們還曾經查獲這一點是不孝的業者我們該下架就要下架一定要跟他們作為整個統籌讓我們台灣這個疫情能早路過去"},{"start":12300.655,"end":12315.951,"text":"是委員講得很對不過我要跟委員報告有關陸資電商平台我們政府在政策上還沒有開放現在來的他都是透過跟中國的這個電商平台自行購買那我們相關單位也在攔阻這些"},{"start":12316.631,"end":12328.977,"text":"委員說擔心像非洲豬瘟的這個商品到台灣來那這部分進一步的歸管這些從大陸來的這些商品目前相關的部會都在積極的嚴格查處當中大陸那個淘寶他們很多平台電商台灣人還是很多在購買"},{"start":12338.682,"end":12362.278,"text":"他們是跟中國淘寶買我們沒有同意他來這邊合法但是還是很多的商品過來台灣你弱品的話你還是要去管制因為非洲豬瘟我看理科大家都很自愛那我們是從包裹這一邊來管制應該會比較好是 相關部會都有在進行了好的 謝謝謝謝吳委員謝謝吳齊平委員的質詢謝謝"},{"start":12371.821,"end":12371.841,"text":"好"},{"start":12378.512,"end":12406.646,"text":"現在登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均已發言完畢 詢答結束委員 林學忠 黃婕 林楚茵 黃宏威 高晶素梅委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日的會議到此結束現在休息 我們明天繼續開會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}