{"error":false,"id":["170253"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170253,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170253","日期":"2026-07-02","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-17","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":17,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-02T10:32:16+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-02T10:51:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:19:13","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cc5c88b044d5f1e095de04c84f6d2ebbc206a561727bd8a3e0219f54a37cabce14e39bd33e9c15bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:32:16 - 10:51:29","會議時間":"2026-07-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「菸害防制法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「菸害防制法第三十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員羅智強等17人擬具「菸害防制法第二十六條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員羅智強等17人擬具「菸害防制法第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「菸害防制法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員林月琴等22人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員王育敏等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「菸害防制法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案。\n十、委員邱若華等17人擬具「菸害防制法第三條及第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員陳超明等31人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王義川等17人擬具「菸害防制法第三十二條及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等22人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳菁徽等21人擬具「菸害防制法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員林思銘等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【僅詢答】【第十二至十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":9.480968750000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.73784375,"end":14.087843750000001,"speaker_score":0.832},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":14.087843750000001,"end":51.398468750000006,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":51.938468750000006,"end":53.35596875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":53.862218750000004,"end":57.27096875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":57.91221875,"end":58.806593750000005,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":59.38034375,"end":65.42159375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":66.29909375,"end":71.68221875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":72.49221875,"end":76.82909375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":77.62221875,"end":89.56971875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":89.56971875,"end":98.78346875000001,"speaker_score":0.832},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":95.88096875000001,"end":99.98159375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":100.57221875,"end":110.52846875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":110.52846875,"end":112.16534375,"speaker_score":0.832},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":112.16534375,"end":119.55659375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":119.92784375000001,"end":121.66596875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":122.27346875,"end":123.13409375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":123.30284375000001,"end":124.14659375000001,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":124.83846875,"end":126.61034375000001,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":126.66096875000001,"end":136.11096875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":135.25034375,"end":143.26596875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":143.43471875,"end":151.88909375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":147.51846875,"end":149.05409375000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":151.58534375000002,"end":154.18409375000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":154.74096875,"end":155.39909375000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":154.84221875,"end":156.37784375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":155.61846875,"end":157.39034375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":157.39034375,"end":160.98471875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":159.90471875,"end":161.99721875,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":161.57534375,"end":162.89159375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":162.53721875000002,"end":163.26284375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":163.80284375000002,"end":181.62284375000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":164.37659375,"end":165.76034375,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":181.62284375000002,"end":181.77471875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":181.77471875,"end":181.79159375,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":181.79159375,"end":181.87596875,"speaker_score":0.93},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":181.87596875,"end":181.94346875000002,"speaker_score":0.984},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":181.94346875000002,"end":18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不及格"},{"start":183.3,"end":187.724,"text":"他把流廠的那個油再驗他們其實出去之後還有流廠的不要講這種都來都去的總之自主檢驗是合格被下游廠商檢驗出來出問題了東窗事發了紙包不住火了然後他再驗一次就不合格了嘛"},{"start":200.737,"end":208.4,"text":"事情的經過是這樣子嘛 因為對我們消費者而言我們就百思不得其解 曾幾何時啊有油品廠商這麼的誠實 會自己公告說 我的油有問題請大家下架本來以為 欸 這個食品業者怎麼這麼誠實今天才發現 不是 是他被下油廠商驗出來超飄"},{"start":224.645,"end":242.815,"text":"他才再驗一次然後才跟大家講因為大家都知道了下游廠商都知道了好我現在講這個事情很重要為什麼因為如果沒有南橋如果沒有下游廠商謹慎的再驗一次請問這一些超標的油瓶會下架嗎請問他們會自主回收嗎他們會公告不及格嗎"},{"start":251.36,"end":276.676,"text":"不會 答案是不會好 那我要講這個東窗事發他才會再驗一次才發現說第一次不及格 第二次第一次及格 第二次不及格好 那我現在要跟署長和部長講這個超標不是一點點不是上游下游一起把關 不是是業者自主管理的假象和破功"},{"start":278.624,"end":285.247,"text":"對不對 如果沒有南橋 這個自主管理它就是合格過去了 大家又繼續吞下去可是這個事情很嚴重 為什麼 因為部長 1300噸 這個裡面最嚴重的問題在它是18公升的營業業務用油耶 業務用油耶 到現在有廠商"},{"start":303.038,"end":325.432,"text":"就是福茂 他連批號幾號 他連他的流向是哪裡三家中聯有指三間廠商合資的嘛 泰山 福茂 福壽可是呢 泰山跟福壽公布了他們用什麼包裝 批號是什麼到現在還沒有看到福茂有指公告餒"},{"start":327.165,"end":344.643,"text":"福茂還擺爛在那裡耶報告委員我這邊有批號向您報告你有批號不要跟我報告請他們對社會公告不要跟我報告部長我現在跟你講一千三百多萬換成營業用的喔不管是餐廳"},{"start":346.605,"end":358.097,"text":"小吃店 大賣場 夜市 八卦營養午餐大家買的油品都是18公升1300噸換成18公升 裝成幾桶 你算過嗎 幾桶你不算過齁 我算了 72222桶"},{"start":368.235,"end":393.513,"text":"這不是小事72222桶18公升的這個鋪貨 鋪貨不到全聯 家樂福 美聯社小包裝的一般家庭的1公升2公升的鋪貨在全聯 家樂福 美聯社大家都是去這種地方買油換成2公升包裝是65萬瓶"},{"start":396.646,"end":415.38,"text":"65萬坪 那大包裝跟小包裝比例是多少 你們有掌握嗎不知道 可不可以我們現在 報導委員我們有在盤這個部分好 你們繼續盤 18公升的我告訴你全部都最小的 就最小的 最少數量就18公升7.23萬桶"},{"start":419.973,"end":428.444,"text":"這個是全台灣 夜市 便當店 小吃店 餐廳大概全部都中了 有雜的 全部都中了不要忘了 我剛才一開始就講的一開始就講的 他自主檢驗都合格的"},{"start":436.656,"end":445.842,"text":"是下游的廠商驗了不合格他才再驗才變成不合格如果沒有下游廠商再驗我們就回頭要去打問號請問他們以前的驗的合格的真的是合格嗎我現在要問部長和署長就是這些廠商自主檢驗以前驗的合格的是真的合格嗎"},{"start":462.605,"end":480.113,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為他們的委託也是第三方像第一次四月份他們是SGS 第二次是艾滋味幫忙驗第三次他們在確認的時候是SGS那我們對於第三方檢驗他是被核可確定他的製程跟檢驗過程我現在跟你講這個他送驗的樣品是什麼樣品不知道"},{"start":485.655,"end":504.545,"text":"然後出問題的後市場你交給廠商的那最準啦最準啦交給廠商的跟你第一次送宴的是不是一樣政府都在管你不知道是不是一樣 不知道最後在宴的一定是剩下的那些要留底的嘛所以才"},{"start":505.305,"end":532.879,"text":"所以我們都知道事先檢驗 政府如果在管我是要講說高風險的原料進入供應鏈以後這個出問題大家都才知道可是源頭出問題它就是對社會影響最大的而且是大的源頭的所以在這個裡面我要跟你講說不只是數量大再來這一次檢出的本片比本片比它的限量檢出的數據是多少"},{"start":533.739,"end":550.388,"text":"是兩ppb以下就是兩毫克每一公斤以下的本評比呢對 標準是2對 我說它檢出量是多少第一次是驗1.6我不要講第一次第一次的樣本是哪裡來的我們不知道嘛後面是驗出8.18.1是2的4倍超過"},{"start":555.45,"end":570.702,"text":"跟委員報告一下 這個是牽涉到獨立學他是慢性獨立 我們會擔心他致癌的問題不是啦 署長其實你不需要這樣子你不需要在這個裡面跟我們打轉他就是超標四倍對我們人民來講 我們的擔憂就在這裡所以你不需要再講說獨立怎麼樣怎麼樣我超過0.1 我都不能接受"},{"start":574.365,"end":594.275,"text":"更何況是超標4倍如果不要用單一的致癌物質本偏比的數據用你們紫藥署的制度降低食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物含量的作業指引你們的PAHS的監測指標值是多少"},{"start":596.229,"end":610.872,"text":"就是整個PAHS的監測標準是10而你看它整個的數據看出來你總的加起來是10嗎 不是總的加起來是21.3了吧不要講致癌物質本評比喔包括這一些這個PAHS都是超標兩倍"},{"start":625.309,"end":645.788,"text":"這個非常非常的嚴重加從起來是21.3 超過監測值的兩倍如果單一來看 每一種 每一種這種高風險的化學物質包括本瓶櫻 包括這個本瓶比 包括這個Krysani 還什麼的通通都是超標"},{"start":647.129,"end":660.084,"text":"所以這個PAHS整體的污染已經超過了監測的指標兩倍 很嚴重所以我們要回過頭來講 食安的制度我們監測和管理 食安的管理制度是要事前把關 源頭把關"},{"start":662.884,"end":690.363,"text":"所以我要講這是事後事後大家都吃下去了大家都吃下去了你發現他是大幅超標所以我在這裡要跟部長和署長講幾件事第一個我們的檢驗的頻率還要維持半年一次嗎因為自有的產業他批次進貨批次精緻批次出貨對實際生產的批次來說半年他沒有辦法把關啊"},{"start":691.304,"end":698.956,"text":"而一個一批次 你看這個批次1300噸所以部長 我們還要維持原來的制度嗎現行的制度夠嗎"},{"start":700.57,"end":722.497,"text":"跟委員報告我們會把這個事件調查清楚之後重新檢討看要在哪個地方來補破網把他這個建立起來我在這裡具體建議啦因為他的食用油脂的原料逐批進貨逐批加工所以我們檢驗是不是要改成一批次一供應來源一用途提高檢驗的頻率第二個第二個"},{"start":726.299,"end":746.85,"text":"這個有沒有可能我們應該要把檢驗要預防放在前面所以在檢驗結果出來以前不得放行為什麼他自己也有說啊你看中聯郵指自己自己的聲明第二點他們要啟動每批次郵品委外送驗確保品質合格才可以放行出貨所以他們"},{"start":748.13,"end":762.267,"text":"業者自己說的喔 業者可以做到每批次逐批委外送驗第三點 業者自己說 而後他要加強 加嚴驗收原料及增加自主檢驗頻率"},{"start":763.909,"end":779.35,"text":"所以他們是同意原料就要開始驗了原料就要開始驗了所以在這個狀況裡面在檢驗結果出來以前我們是不是送驗跟加工的時序要把關"},{"start":781.109,"end":796.696,"text":"原料鹹也好原料沒問題啊檢驗結果出來了才可以加工所以這樣才能夠事前預防源頭把關而不要讓他們流入市場大家都吃下肚才在那裡雞腸和下架來不及了然後第三個"},{"start":798.257,"end":819.749,"text":"我們要講說 你看大型通 它撲貨 撲到我剛才講的大桶的油7.23萬桶小型的2公升的 它可以65萬桶 65萬瓶它撲貨到全台灣 全國市佔率最多的各大通路商裡面所以"},{"start":820.749,"end":842.628,"text":"地方政府到底誰你們應該要求地方政府儘速掌握這65萬坪或者是幾萬坪他的完整的流向到底撲霍到哪裡通路商要告訴我們吧盡快公告通路商大概大家都中啦老實說啦"},{"start":844.258,"end":866.545,"text":"可是大家的聲明出來都說我們沒有如果18公升算起來7萬多桶 大家都說沒有 不然是誰買的 不知道大家出來說我們沒有 不然是誰吃的 不知道所以在這裡 我要講就是18公升的大桶油餐飲業 食品加工業 團善要如何"},{"start":869.628,"end":881.947,"text":"知道他們到底是到哪裡去了 流向因為我們就是要知道可是業者 大家出來自清的都說沒有沒有 到底是誰有"},{"start":883.274,"end":909.799,"text":"那我現在就是要問第五個 大家談過的這批的問題的汙染 或不是汙染它的問題的來源是什麼問題的來源是什麼所以我們的追溯追蹤系統要求他們保存原材料 半成品和成品來源還要建立原料 半成品 成品供應來源及流向的追溯追蹤系統"},{"start":910.859,"end":937.549,"text":"你們這樣子追 有追出來流向了嗎都全部都流出 都追出來現在就是在按照這樣去追不是 如果業者沒有公佈業者如果沒有公佈 我們不是要必登嗎不是一定要追溯追蹤要登嗎那我們的系統勾結了出來嗎目前是在持續的勾結因為我們昨天知道這件事情在進行當中那確確的數字跟方向再跟委員做回報"},{"start":939.368,"end":964.029,"text":"平常只要現在我再問你一個最根本就是說一般如果他們自己自主檢驗異常他們的標準流程要怎麼處理自主檢驗異常那個部分的原料就不能夠張作是原料來做供應不是啦他們有沒有SOP他們需不需要匯到中央來讓你們知道主動通報你們SOP可不可以告訴我一次是怎麼處理"},{"start":965.925,"end":989.54,"text":"當業者自主通報 自主檢驗有異常他就必須到我們的飛燈系統裡面通報通報像昨天 我們這次的通報分別在三個時間昨天6月30號下午4點到昨天下午3點 四家陸陸續續就把他們的沒有通報有什麼罰則 第幾條目前我們通報的罰則是按照食安法是3萬到300萬的罰則3萬到300萬"},{"start":993.291,"end":1011.003,"text":"好現在部長你們要想一想他這個問題的解釋第一次合格下游檢驗不合格然後他在第二次在驗然後才發現不合格那這樣子會不會讓自主檢驗的社會信任度破功因為自己沒有下游這一環如果沒有南橋這一環這個事情就沒了就可能就沒了"},{"start":1018.388,"end":1036.602,"text":"大家都吃下去了那仰賴這個是這樣對嗎所以我問你最後一個問題我們能不能有官方的對於高風險的最源頭影響大眾最重要的其中一個就是油品的我們應該要有更多的後市場監測是由官方官方應該要有頻率"},{"start":1044.141,"end":1053.844,"text":"某種程度的頻率的後市場監測要求各地方政府每個月就要就高風險的每都要去抽都要驗經常抽經常驗如果這次沒有南橋我們就沒有就合格就通過去了"},{"start":1061.803,"end":1086.391,"text":"那接下來南橋不做難道就沒有人要做嗎我們政府應該要扛起這個責任後市場監測後市場監測你們有什麼計畫跟委員說明其實我們過去就是三級評管除了他自己檢驗外部檢驗另外還有一個我們會有抽驗從四月發生到現在抽驗的頻率啦你們抽驗的頻率是多麼低啦"},{"start":1087.331,"end":1095.757,"text":"對 就是我們從這個事件因為我們都會按照風險來嘛那從發生這個事情我相信後面我們就會來檢討一天這個廠可以生產600噸的油品600噸的風險就每天每天600噸"},{"start":1102.162,"end":1120.39,"text":"然後你這樣子一年抽一次這不行啊 後市場監測我們現在要求你後市場監測不要靠南橋要靠我們政府每年要求地方政府固定的半個月一個月經常去市場去通路商抽油經常監測"},{"start":1122.051,"end":1147.172,"text":"好嗎 可以嗎可以 我跟委員說明我們會整個把這個調查清楚之後再來做後面的補強但是基本上也是要啊對啊對啊 後市場監測後市場監測頻率啊 強度啊 都要加強讓他看怎麼設計才能夠真的發揮作用啦對啦 要有政府的角色啊不可以每個人都 要不然難求就沒有啊好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":1150.521,"end":1152.527,"text":"好 謝謝林淑雯委員發言 現在休息十分鐘"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:22.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:22.964000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，是不是繼續請部長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:22.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:23.044000+08:00","text":"有請石部長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:23.044000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:24.044000+08:00","text":"林委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:23.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:23.104000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:23.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:50.100000+08:00","text":"剛才在辦公室裡面聽你的答詢，有一點瞠目結舌，我們本來第一時間看到媒體報導披露，含苯駢芘致癌物質的油品是由廠商泰山自主公告說：我們比政府規定的半年驗一次還要更嚴格，我們四個月（一季）就驗一次。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:50.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:32:52.340000+08:00","text":"我告訴大家，我們有不合格、超標的，我們希望自主管理，要請大家下架並且回收。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:32:52.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:33:45.068000+08:00","text":"我本來以為是這樣子，結果你剛才……根本不是這樣子，這是令我們瞠目結舌，我剛才聽你講的，原來真相是中聯油脂、泰山、福壽及福懋，他們第一次自主檢驗數據是合格的，賣出去以後，下游廠商自己再驗一次，發現超標不合格。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:33:46.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:33:52.054000+08:00","text":"跟委員釐清，它的源頭來自同一家就是中聯油脂，中聯是供應商。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:33:52.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:33:52.474000+08:00","text":"我知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:33:52.474000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:33:53.474000+08:00","text":"主要是中聯。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:33:52.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:00.299000+08:00","text":"中聯是代工廠商，他們自主檢驗合格了，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:00.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:06.002000+08:00","text":"現在出問題的這一批油脂，中聯自己驗是合格的嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:06.002000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:09.283000+08:00","text":"對，一開始、第一次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:09.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.584000+08:00","text":"人家下游廠商驗是不合格，請問這家下游廠商為什麼要驗？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.644000+08:00","text":"他是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.684000+08:00","text":"哪一個廠商？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:11.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:12.144000+08:00","text":"通路商還是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:21.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:22.167000+08:00","text":"檢驗也要花錢啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:22.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:31.250000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為油品到下游廠商，其實有的廠商自己對於食用的油品會再驗，就發現異常。","quality":0.676},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:31.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:32.331000+08:00","text":"這個不是普通廠商啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:32.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:39.753000+08:00","text":"要花錢自己去驗的，絕對不是尋常廠商，是通路商還是哪一家廠商，你可以直接說嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:39.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:43.154000+08:00","text":"就我們了解第一次知道是南僑，所以他們把驗出來的……","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:43.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:44.794000+08:00","text":"南僑是要做什麼的？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:44.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:47.655000+08:00","text":"他們本身是做油品的，做相關油品。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:47.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.796000+08:00","text":"南僑據我所知不是食品加工業，是嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.856000+08:00","text":"他是食品……有嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.916000+08:00","text":"南僑做什麼？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:50.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.577000+08:00","text":"他是做油品的，也有餐飲及各方面都有。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.577000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:52.577000+08:00","text":"他也是餐飲？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.897000+08:00","text":"烘焙業也都有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:52.897000+08:00","text":"烘焙，好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:52.897000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:53.897000+08:00","text":"他們會使用相當多的油品。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:34:51.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:34:54.960000+08:00","text":"所以中聯油脂驗出來都及格了，交貨給下游廠商，而下游廠商也是大廠商，他們謹慎地去驗出來是超標，超標通知中聯油脂，中聯油脂再驗才發現不及格，所以……","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:19.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:20.101000+08:00","text":"他把留廠的那個油再驗，他們其實販售出去後，還有油品會留在廠內。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:20.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:20.521000+08:00","text":"不要講這種兜來兜去的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:20.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:23.704000+08:00","text":"總之，自主檢驗是合格，被下游廠商檢驗出來出問題了、東窗事發了、紙包不住火了，他再驗一次就不合格了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:36.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:38.117000+08:00","text":"事情的經過是這樣子。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:38.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:43.459000+08:00","text":"因為對我們消費者而言，我們就百思不得其解，曾幾何時，有油品廠商這麼的誠實，會自己公告說：我的油有問題，請大家下架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:43.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:35:44.039000+08:00","text":"本來以為這家食品業者怎麼這麼誠實，今天才發現，不是！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:35:44.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:06.929000+08:00","text":"是他被下游廠商驗出來超標，他才再驗一次，才跟大家講，因為大家都知道了，下游廠商都知道了。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:07.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:10.411000+08:00","text":"我現在講這件事情很重要，為什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:10.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:17.655000+08:00","text":"因為如果沒有南僑，如果沒有下游廠商謹慎的再驗一次，請問這一些超標的油品會下架嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:17.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:18.315000+08:00","text":"請問他們會自主回收嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:18.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:18.815000+08:00","text":"他們會公告不及格嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:28.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:29.441000+08:00","text":"答案是不會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:30.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:38.867000+08:00","text":"我要講，因為東窗事發，他才會再驗一次，才發現第一次及格，第二次不及格。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:40.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:48.533000+08:00","text":"我現在要跟部長及署長講，這個超標不是一點點，不是上游、下游一起把關，不是！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:49.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:36:54.944000+08:00","text":"是業者自主管理的假象和破功，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:36:54.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:00.447000+08:00","text":"如果沒有南僑自主管理，它就是合格、過去了，大家又繼續吞下去，可是這件事情很嚴重，為什麼？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:00.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:00.987000+08:00","text":"部長，因為這1,300噸，這裡面最嚴重的問題，它是18公升的營業業務用油！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:01.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:28.964000+08:00","text":"現在還有廠商就是福懋，他連批號幾號、他連它的流向是哪裡……中聯油脂是由3間廠商合資的嘛！","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:29.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:31.926000+08:00","text":"分別是泰山、福懋、福壽。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:31.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:45.147000+08:00","text":"可是泰山跟福壽公布了它們用什麼包裝、批號是什麼，到現在還沒有看到福懋油脂公告，福懋還擺爛在那裡。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:46.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:48.530000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我這邊有批號向您報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:48.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:51.674000+08:00","text":"你有批號，不要跟我報告，請他們對社會公告。好的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:52.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:53.235000+08:00","text":"不要跟我報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:53.235000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:37:55.077000+08:00","text":"他們已經有公告了。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:37:55.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:38:12.075000+08:00","text":"部長，我現在要跟你講，1,300噸換成營業用的，不管是餐廳、小吃店、大賣場、夜市，包括營養午餐，大家買的油品都是18公升，1,300噸換成18公升可以裝成幾桶，你算過嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:38:12.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:38:12.916000+08:00","text":"你沒算過？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:38:12.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:38:56.008000+08:00","text":"我算了，是7萬2,222桶，這不是小事，7萬2,222桶18公升的這個鋪貨，鋪貨到全聯、家樂福、美聯社小包裝的，一般家庭的1公升、2公升的鋪貨在全聯、家樂福、美聯社，大家都是去這種地方買油，換成2公升包裝是65萬瓶，大包裝與小包裝比例是多少？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:38:56.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:38:58.910000+08:00","text":"你們有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:38:58.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:38:59.191000+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:39:01.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:39:03.314000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們有在盤點這個部分，會再跟委員報告。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:39:03.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:39:05.415000+08:00","text":"好，你們繼續盤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:39:05.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:39:40.221000+08:00","text":"18公升的，我告訴你全部最少數量、最小包裝的就18公升，是7.23萬桶，這個是全臺灣夜市、便當店、小吃店、餐廳，大概全部都中了，油炸的全部都中了，不要忘了，我剛才一開始就講的，他自主檢驗都合格，是下游廠商驗不合格，他才再驗，才變成不合格，如果沒有下游廠商再驗，我們就回頭要打個問號，請問他們以前驗的合格，真的是合格嗎？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:39:40.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:39:41.842000+08:00","text":"我現在問部長和署長，這些廠商自主檢驗在以前驗的合格是真的合格嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:39:58.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:04.928000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下，因為他們委託也是第三方檢驗單位，像第1次在4月份是委託SGS……","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:04.928000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:05.928000+08:00","text":"對，合格啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:05.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:09.810000+08:00","text":"第2次的是愛之味幫忙驗，第3次他們再確認的時候，也是SGS。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:10.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:14.772000+08:00","text":"我們對於第三方檢驗，他是被核可確定它的製程跟檢驗過程，所以這部分我們是相對相信他們。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:14.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:27.198000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你講，他送驗的是什麼樣品不知道，然後出問題的是後市場，你交給廠商的是最準啦！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:27.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:31.160000+08:00","text":"交給廠商的跟你第一次送驗的是不是一樣？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:31.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:34.342000+08:00","text":"政府如果沒有在管，是不是一樣，你知道嗎？","quality":0.529},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:34.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:34.642000+08:00","text":"不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:35.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:40:39.424000+08:00","text":"最後在驗的一定是剩下的那一些要留底的。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:40:41.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:08.859000+08:00","text":"所以我們都知道事先檢驗，政府如果沒有在管……我是要講，高風險的原料進入供應鏈以後，這個出問題大家都才知道，可是源頭出問題，它就是對社會影響最大的，而且是大的源頭，所以在這個裡面，我要跟你講，不只是數量大，再來，這一次檢出苯駢芘的數據是多少？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:09.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:15.682000+08:00","text":"是2 ppb以下，就是每一公斤2毫克以下……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:15.682000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:17.203000+08:00","text":"苯駢芘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:17.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:17.423000+08:00","text":"標準是2 ppb。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:18.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:19.904000+08:00","text":"對，我說它檢出量是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:20.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:21.945000+08:00","text":"第一次是驗1.6……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:21.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:25.607000+08:00","text":"我不要講第1次，第1次樣本是哪裡來的，我們不知道嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:25.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:26.087000+08:00","text":"後面是驗出8.1。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:26.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:26.388000+08:00","text":"8.1，是2的4倍還超過。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:31.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:35.273000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下，這個是牽涉到毒理學，它是慢性毒理，我們會擔心它的致癌物質，我們希望不要讓它……","quality":0.585},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:35.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:35.914000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:36.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:41:46.682000+08:00","text":"署長，其實你不需要在這個裡面跟我們打轉，它就是超標4倍，對我們人民來講，我們擔憂就在這裡，所以你不需要再講毒理怎麼樣、怎麼樣，超過0.1，我都不能接受……是的。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:41:50.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:42:10.255000+08:00","text":"更何況是超標4倍，如果不要用單一的致癌物質苯駢芘的數據，用你們食藥署的制度「降低食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物含量之作業指引」，你們PAHs的監測指標值是多少？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:42:12.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:42:23.231000+08:00","text":"就是整個PAHs的監測標準是10，而你看它整個數據總和加起來是10嗎？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:42:23.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:42:23.651000+08:00","text":"不是，總和加起來是21.3了吧！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:42:23.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:42:47.034000+08:00","text":"不要講致癌物質苯駢芘，包括這一些PAHs都是超標2倍，這個非常非常的嚴重，加總起來是21.3，超過監測值的2倍。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:42:47.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:09.476000+08:00","text":"如果單一來看，每一種這種高風險的化學物質，包括苯駢芘、Chrysene等通通都是超標，所以這個PAHs整體的污染已經超過了監測指標的2倍，很嚴重！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:10.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:26.890000+08:00","text":"所以我們要回過頭來講食安制度的監測和管理，食安的管理制度是要事前把關，源頭把關，所以我要講，這是事後，大家都吃下去了，你才發現它是大幅超標。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:26.890000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:29.291000+08:00","text":"所以我在這裡要跟部長和署長講幾件事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:29.512000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:36.757000+08:00","text":"第一個，你們檢驗的頻率還要維持半年一次嗎？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:36.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:54.455000+08:00","text":"因為製油的產業是批次進貨、批次精製、批次出貨，對實際生產的批次來說，半年沒有辦法把關，而一個批次，你看這個批次1,300噸，所以部長，我們還要維持原來的制度嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:54.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:43:54.956000+08:00","text":"現行的制度夠嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:43:56.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:05.073000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們會把這個事件調查清楚之後重新檢討，看要在哪個地方補破網，把它建立起來。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:05.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:17.637000+08:00","text":"我在這裡具體建議，因為食用油脂的原料是逐批進貨、逐批加工，所以你們的檢驗是不是要改成依批次、依供應來源、依用途，提高檢驗的頻率？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:18.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:30.363000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們應該要把檢驗、預防放在前面，所以在檢驗結果出來以前不得放行，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:31.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:42.109000+08:00","text":"你看中聯油脂聲明的第二點，他們要啟動每批次油品委外送驗，確保品質合格才可以放行出貨。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:42.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:50.818000+08:00","text":"是他們業者自己說的，業者可以做到每批次委外送驗。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:50.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:44:58.247000+08:00","text":"第三點，業者自己說爾後它要加嚴驗收原料及增加自主檢驗頻率。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:44:59.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:45:15.350000+08:00","text":"所以他們同意原料就要開始驗了，在這個狀況裡面，在檢驗結果出來前，送驗跟加工你們是不是要持續把關？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:45:17.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:45:31.335000+08:00","text":"原料驗好，原料沒問題，檢驗結果出來了才可以加工，這樣才能夠事前預防，源頭把關，而不要讓他們流入市場，大家都吃下肚了，才在那裡稽查和下架，來不及了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:45:32.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:13.864000+08:00","text":"第三個我要講，你看它的鋪貨，大桶的油7.23萬桶，小型的2公升65萬瓶，它鋪貨到全臺灣市占率最多的各大通路商，所以你們應該要求地方政府儘速掌握這65萬瓶，或者是幾萬瓶，它的完整流向到底鋪貨到哪裡，通路商要告訴我們吧！","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:14.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:16.306000+08:00","text":"儘快公告通路商！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:16.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:23.119000+08:00","text":"老實說啦，大概大家都中了，可是大家聲明出來都說我們沒有。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:25.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:28.741000+08:00","text":"18公升算起來是七萬多桶，如果每家都說沒有，不然是誰買去？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:28.981000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:32.722000+08:00","text":"不知道，大家出來都說他們沒有，那是誰吃下去了？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:33.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:48.332000+08:00","text":"不知道，所以在這裡我要講的就是，18公升的大桶油，餐飲業、食品加工業、團膳，要如何知道到底是到哪裡去了？流向？","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:49.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:46:57.927000+08:00","text":"因為我們就是要知道嘛，可是業者出來自清的都說沒有，沒有，那到底是誰有？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:46:59.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:11.496000+08:00","text":"我現在要問第五個，大家談過的，這一批有問題的產品來源是什麼？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:14.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:30.760000+08:00","text":"我們的追溯追蹤系統要求他們保存原材料、半成品和成品來源，還要建立原料、半成品、成品供應來源及流向的追溯追蹤系統，你們這樣子追，有追出流向了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:30.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:32.561000+08:00","text":"全部流出都追出來了嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:32.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:34.322000+08:00","text":"現在就是在按照這樣去追，看看裡面哪一個環節……","quality":0.55},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:34.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:36.282000+08:00","text":"不是，業者沒有公布。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:38.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:40.844000+08:00","text":"你們不是必登嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:40.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:43.105000+08:00","text":"不是追溯追蹤系統一定要登嗎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:43.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:45.966000+08:00","text":"你們的系統勾稽得出來嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:45.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:47:53.549000+08:00","text":"目前是在持續地勾稽，因為我們昨天才知道這件事情，正在進行當中，確切的數字跟方向再跟委員做回報。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:47:56.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:04.876000+08:00","text":"現在我再問你一個最根本的，就是一般如果他們自己自主檢驗異常，他們的標準流程要怎麼處理？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:07.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:11.642000+08:00","text":"那個部分就不能夠當作原料來做供應了。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:11.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:13.744000+08:00","text":"不是啦，他們有沒有SOP？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:14.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:17.407000+08:00","text":"他們需不需要匯到中央來讓你們知道，主動通報？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:17.407000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:18.407000+08:00","text":"有，要自主通報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:17.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:20.009000+08:00","text":"你們可不可以告訴我一次SOP是怎麼處理？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:21.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:37.335000+08:00","text":"當業者自主檢驗有異常，它就必須到我們的「非登不可」系統裡面通報，像昨天的通報分別在3個時間，從6月30號下午4點到昨天下午3點，4家就陸陸續續通報了。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:38.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:40.157000+08:00","text":"沒有通報有什麼罰則？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:40.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:41.057000+08:00","text":"第幾條？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:41.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:48:49.291000+08:00","text":"目前我們通報的罰則是按照食安法，是3萬到300萬的罰則。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:48:50.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:49:04.581000+08:00","text":"部長，現在你們要想一想，這個問題的癥結在於第一次合格，但下游檢驗不合格，然後它第二次再驗才發現不合格，這樣子會不會讓自主檢驗的社會信任度破功？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:49:05.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:49:18.431000+08:00","text":"因為自己檢驗如果沒有下游這一環，如果沒有南僑這一環，這個事情可能就沒了，大家就都吃下去了，只仰賴這個機制這樣對嗎？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:49:18.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:49:22.354000+08:00","text":"所以我問你最後一個問題，我們能不能有官方的後市場監測？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:49:23.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:49:49.824000+08:00","text":"對於高風險的、最源頭、影響大眾最重要的部分，其中一個就是油品，我們應該要有更多的後市場監測，是由官方來做，官方應該要有某種程度、頻率的後市場監測，就高風險的部分要求各地方政府每個月都要去抽、都要去驗，經常抽，經常驗，如果這次沒有南僑，他們就合格，就通過了。","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:49:58.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:02.184000+08:00","text":"接下來，南僑不做，難道就沒有人要做嗎？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:02.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:09.207000+08:00","text":"我們政府應該要扛起這個責任，後市場監測你們有什麼計畫？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:09.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:16.929000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實我們過去就是三級品管，除了它自己檢驗、外部檢驗，另外還有一個就是我們會抽驗。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:16.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:18.570000+08:00","text":"好啦，不要講這個了，從4月發生到現在……","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:18.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:19.710000+08:00","text":"只是說抽驗的頻率……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:20.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:22.371000+08:00","text":"你們抽驗的頻率是多麼低啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:23.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:29.416000+08:00","text":"對，因為我們都按照風險來嘛，但發生這個事情，我相信後面我們就會來檢討……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:29.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:41.364000+08:00","text":"這個廠一天可以生產600噸的油品，600噸的風險就每天發生，然後你一年抽一次，這樣不行啦！","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:43.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:58.491000+08:00","text":"我們現在要求你後市場監測，不要靠南僑，要靠我們政府，每年要求地方政府固定半個月、一個月，經常去市場、去通路商抽油，經常監測，好嗎？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:58.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:50:58.692000+08:00","text":"可以改進嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:50:58.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:05.437000+08:00","text":"可以，我跟委員說明，我們會把這整個調查清楚之後，再來做後面的各種補強措施。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:05.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:07.239000+08:00","text":"但是這也要做啊！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:08.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:09.020000+08:00","text":"對啊，後市場監測的部分我們本來就是在……","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:09.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:13.544000+08:00","text":"後市場監測的頻率、強度都要加強。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:14.044000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:17.207000+08:00","text":"對，看要怎麼設計才能夠真的發揮作用。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:17.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:21.790000+08:00","text":"對，要有政府的角色啦，今天如果沒有南僑就沒人發現。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:22.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:23.051000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:23.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:23.172000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:26.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:27.565000+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:27.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:28.527000+08:00","text":"現在休息10分鐘。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:29.027000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:30.169857+08:00","text":"休息（10時51分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:30.469857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:32.184143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時3分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:32.484143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:34.198429+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:34.498429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:36.784143+08:00","text":"請黃秀芳委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:37.084143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:38.227000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:38.527000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:39.527000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:39.827000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:41.255571+08:00","text":"有請石部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:41.555571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:42.698429+08:00","text":"黃委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:42.998429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:51:43.998429+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:51:44.298429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:06.584143+08:00","text":"部長，今天發生食用油含致癌物質的事件，雖然業者主動通報，但是從4月份生產的這些油脂到6月底主動通報，這兩個多月的時間，我們看到他製造的這種18公升的油，其實應該大部分都吃下肚了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:52:06.884143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:20.598429+08:00","text":"我想請教的就是，從業者主動通報一直到所有的通路商下架這些有問題的產品，目前整個下架的狀況你們有掌握嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:52:20.898429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:38.041286+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這一個案件我們現在還在持續調查的部分，就是因為他在4月的時候有驗，當時驗的時候是合格的，那是到後面又有下游的廠商驗出來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:52:38.341286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:41.198429+08:00","text":"那距離這個時間是差多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:52:41.498429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:57.498429+08:00","text":"那我們在時間上，他們下游廠商一驗有問題，通報上來之後我們就啟動了，所以是6月30號他們通報上來，我們7月1號就發布下架，所以目前還在……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:52:57.798429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:52:59.798429+08:00","text":"那是昨天的事耶。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:53:00.098429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:53:03.812714+08:00","text":"對，所以現在還在彙整這些資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:53:04.112714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:53:30.969857+08:00","text":"現在大家在質疑的就是說，4月份生產的這些油脂，到6月份可能下游廠商他們自己再驗一次，然後發現有問題，其實在這兩個月當中，18公升的這些食用油應該早就在自助餐或者是夜市、餐廳，應該都已經大部分都已經吃下肚子裡面了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:53:31.269857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:53:54.984143+08:00","text":"所以我想請教，在這兩個月當中，就像剛剛淑芬委員講的，你們可能半年去檢驗一次，其實我覺得這個頻率應該……時間太長了，未來針對這部分，我覺得應該我們也要再更主動一點，這個時間是不是要再縮短？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:53:55.284143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:54:25.284143+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們會把這整個事件，因為他一開始驗是合格的，到後面下游才驗出不合格，所以這個事件我們會把它完全調查清楚，然後再來檢討哪個地方要強化，包含委員所提到的抽驗的頻率要不要縮短，要不要強化後市場的抽驗，這些我們會一併來檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:54:25.584143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:54:33.012714+08:00","text":"所以我覺得他這個檢驗應該也有問題，哪有差那麼多的，差4倍呢！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:54:33.312714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:54:40.169857+08:00","text":"對，因為檢驗也不是業者自己驗，他也是送給外部的單位驗……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:54:40.469857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:54:41.898429+08:00","text":"也是委外，是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:54:42.198429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:54:57.341286+08:00","text":"至於檢驗的單位，後面驗出不合格的也是這個檢驗單位，所以到底這是樣本的問題，還是製造過程當中的問題，我們會把它釐清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:54:57.641286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:02.212714+08:00","text":"好，我們希望真的要把這件事情釐清楚。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:02.512714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:17.941286+08:00","text":"因為油是每一個人每天都一定會吃到的，尤其現在外食族非常的多，幾乎大家三餐都是吃外面，所以食用油的部分我們真的要把關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:18.241286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:19.384143+08:00","text":"尤其真的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:19.684143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:20.684143+08:00","text":"是，一定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:20.984143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:32.984143+08:00","text":"自助餐、餐廳、夜市這種地方，應該都會吃到這一批有問題的油，所以我們希望政府單位要嚴正的來把關。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:33.284143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:55:48.141286+08:00","text":"民眾的健康就是要由政府來把關，不是由業者，我覺得業者如果今天不主動通報的話，其實吃到肚子裡面也沒人知道，對不對？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:55:48.441286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:05.298429+08:00","text":"這個我們會強化，業者的責任也要有，因為這畢竟是影響到這麼多人每天的生活、飲食、健康，所以這個一定要強化，那政府的外部監督也會強化。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:05.598429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:18.455571+08:00","text":"我們也希望後續在通路，可能在超市裡面的這些油品是不是有確實的下架，我覺得這個應該也是要你們主動……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:18.755571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:19.755571+08:00","text":"好，會、會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:20.055571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:25.769857+08:00","text":"再聯繫地方政府，是不是有主動要求他們要下架。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:26.069857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:32.355571+08:00","text":"民眾遇到這些有問題的油品，那退貨的部分是不是也……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:32.655571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:56:53.512714+08:00","text":"我們會依照我們過去的做法，我們第一波是先公布不合格的油品品項，接著就會去調查它的流向、通路到哪裡去，讓民眾會更清楚你是哪一段時間在哪個地方買的，那你應該要……好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:56:53.812714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:00.955571+08:00","text":"那原本說15個品項，昨天臺中市那邊說變20個品項，那會不會更多？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:01.255571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:03.255571+08:00","text":"有沒有可能更多？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:03.555571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:18.698429+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個部分我們其實一確定之後，希望把所有的盤出來，所以我們去查出來的有多少品項一定會即時的公告讓全民知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:18.998429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:22.427000+08:00","text":"我們一掌握就會發布新聞。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:22.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:31.584143+08:00","text":"那有沒有可能這些食用油也用於做加工，就是加工食品，餅乾啦或者是什麼……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:31.884143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:32.884143+08:00","text":"有可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:33.184143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:57:38.612714+08:00","text":"加工類的東西，這個是不是也要讓民眾知道？有。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:57:38.912714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:58:04.341286+08:00","text":"我們現在是這樣，他是B2C的就是直接販售給一般民眾的，我們會把公告它的流向、通路，讓大家回去退貨；至於是B2B直接再提供給下游業者的，也會通知相關的業者，如果業者還有存貨的話，當然就不應該再繼續使用。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:58:04.641286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:58:09.784143+08:00","text":"我覺得後面應該要再加強整個流向的追蹤。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:58:10.084143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:58:22.941286+08:00","text":"至於實驗室、檢驗室這方面可能也要再去釐清，到底是哪一個環節出問題，不然檢驗出來怎麼會差那麼多……是。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:58:23.241286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:58:32.384143+08:00","text":"究竟是原料的問題，或是在製造過程當中出問題，我覺得這個應該都要掌握。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:58:32.684143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:58:33.684143+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:58:33.984143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:59:06.841286+08:00","text":"接下來，今天是有關菸害防制法修正草案的審查，我想請教的就是，其實我最喜歡以立法院來舉例，立法院不論是在我們群賢樓底下，或者是在康園旁邊的走廊，有很多我們的同仁可能會在這幾個地方吸菸，那當然我們希望是不是有可能設吸菸室，就像國外有的他們就有設吸菸室。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:59:07.141286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:59:23.427000+08:00","text":"當然，菸害防制法原本就規定室內不得吸菸，當然我認同室內不得吸菸，可是如果是設吸菸室的話是不是除外，我覺得這也應該可以去討論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:59:23.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:59:46.298429+08:00","text":"如果不設吸菸室的話，大家都在外面吸菸，很多人就會吸到二手菸，所以我覺得與其這樣，應該是去設一個吸菸室，會比室內不得吸菸，然後大家就在室外吸菸……室外吸菸就是讓更多人吸到二手菸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T10:59:46.598429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T10:59:48.598429+08:00","text":"部長，你回應一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T10:59:48.898429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:03.469857+08:00","text":"我們了解，委員的意思是希望減少被二手菸侵害，但是整個菸害防制法的精神，其實是儘量要去降低任何吸菸的可能性……當然。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:03.769857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:10.341286+08:00","text":"包含在各種公共空間，希望將其營造為無菸的環境，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:10.641286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:12.927000+08:00","text":"是，可是這不太可能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:13.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:16.084143+08:00","text":"這是最重要的立法精神。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:16.384143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:41.812714+08:00","text":"設吸菸室是不得已的辦法，如果在這個場域中真的沒有辦法一定要吸菸的話，那麼才去設置吸菸室，讓真的沒有辦法的民眾，連這一點時間都忍不住的，才讓他有一個吸菸的環境，避免去影響其他的人，其實精神是這樣。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:42.112714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:00:54.969857+08:00","text":"所以我們都覺得，像臺北市要去推動成為一個無菸的城市，這個是我們很支持，也覺得應該朝這個方向來努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:00:55.269857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:09.555571+08:00","text":"至於設吸菸室，既然室內是禁菸區，那麼吸菸室的設置也應該要符合儘量不影響他人，不要讓在吸菸室周邊的人很痛苦……是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:09.855571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:19.284143+08:00","text":"所以要儘量讓吸菸室遠離人群，同時也不要去凸顯吸菸室的存在，誘導別人吸菸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:19.584143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:33.012714+08:00","text":"好像我本來可以忍一下不要吸菸的，結果反而少了戒菸的動機，所以這也是在設置吸菸室的時候要一併去考量的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:33.312714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:40.455571+08:00","text":"當然這個立意良善，就是能夠讓大家可以忍一下，然後不吸菸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:40.755571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:52.184143+08:00","text":"可是部長，你應該也可以感受到的就是，很多場合大家在室內不能吸菸，可是他們就會在餐廳外面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:52.484143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:01:53.912714+08:00","text":"到戶外吸菸。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:01:54.212714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:02:22.212714+08:00","text":"可能就在餐廳的門口外面，或者在角落吸菸，其實還是一樣會影響到其他人，所以我覺得像一些公共場合，應該可以考慮是不是可以在角落設吸菸室，當然這個吸菸室裡面的菸要經過處理才排放出來，我覺得這是可以減少對其他人的影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:02:22.512714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:02:35.655571+08:00","text":"對，就是說我們設吸菸室的先決條件是這個區域是禁菸區，如果沒有禁菸區又設吸菸室，那這個就沒有意義了。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:02:35.955571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:02:47.669857+08:00","text":"所以一定是先劃定一個區域是禁菸，然後再來考慮合適的地點去把它劃成吸菸室或吸菸的區域。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:02:47.969857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:02:56.541286+08:00","text":"我看到臺北市這樣的吸菸區，我在想到底有多少人會進到這個柵欄裡面？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:02:56.841286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:00.555571+08:00","text":"到底有多少人會進去裡面吸菸？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:00.855571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:22.569857+08:00","text":"當然這個也是立意良善，就是說要吸菸的人就固定在這個地方吸菸，避免影響到其他人，這是立意良善，可是到底有多少人會因為有設這樣的一個吸菸區，然後進到這個吸菸區裡面吸菸？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:22.869857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:34.584143+08:00","text":"我們當然希望不要有那麼多人吸菸而危害自己的身體健康，當然先決條件也不要去危害其他人。對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:34.884143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:42.027000+08:00","text":"因為沒吸菸的人聞到菸味其實是覺得很痛苦的，另外就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:42.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:53.755571+08:00","text":"我看如果是靠近夜市，這個有點太近，如果這個區域是一個禁菸區的話，吸菸的點要遠離這些人群。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:54.055571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:03:59.484143+08:00","text":"旁邊就是機車停車的地方，對面就是一個夜市。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:03:59.784143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:04:03.498429+08:00","text":"這個太靠近了，並不是好的地點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:04:03.798429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:04:13.512714+08:00","text":"我們剛剛提到，這個地點的選擇要遠離人群，不然你在這個地方吸菸不是濃度更高？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:04:13.812714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:04:22.098429+08:00","text":"大家都集中在這裡，周邊的人就受害了，所以這個地點的選擇也很重要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:04:22.398429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:04:50.112714+08:00","text":"接下來我想請教部長，現在的孩子尤其是國小、國中、高中的孩子，持有電子煙其實是滿嚴重的一個問題，所以我們也希望，當然針對今天的修法，就是持有的話，未來是有罰則，未來在這個平臺、網路平臺上，是不是能夠讓他不是那麼容易取得？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:04:50.412714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:04:57.841286+08:00","text":"或者不是那麼容易能夠透過網路去購買這些我們講的電子煙？","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:04:58.141286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:05:11.284143+08:00","text":"因為在網路上其實還是看得到也買得到，所以我覺得未來針對這部分，我們應該還要再加強，尤其是在網路平臺。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:05:11.584143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:05:34.155571+08:00","text":"這次修法我們也有特別注意到這個部分，因為現在電子煙很多銷售、販賣的管道是透過電子媒體，所以我們在這一次修法裡面會去強化業者、平臺業者管理的義務跟責任，以及需要配合的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:05:34.455571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:05:39.884143+08:00","text":"你們有賦予它有這樣的責任，不得販賣對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:05:40.184143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:06:29.041286+08:00","text":"應該是這樣講，我們現在其實是有一個管理的要點，是希望這個業者要做到的，譬如說，它要自己去把關，關於菸品的廣告，不能夠上在它的……這個商品在販賣的時候不要有廣告、不要有菸品的廣告，另外它要有一個把關的機制，對於非法的加熱菸也好，或者是電子煙也好，不要給它上架，所以它要有管理screening、篩選的義務，未來如果立法之後就會更強制，就等於是已經有法律授權的法規，就會有對應的罰則。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:06:29.341286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:06:37.055571+08:00","text":"當然還沒完成立法之前，我覺得你們應該也要跟這些平臺再加強……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:06:37.355571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:06:40.498429+08:00","text":"有，我們有一個規範給他們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:06:40.798429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:06:49.369857+08:00","text":"好，要不然目前我們高中以下的學生持有電子煙的狀況其實是嚴重的。是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:06:49.669857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:04.241286+08:00","text":"有時候學校的老師會有一些反映，認為這個部分政府應該也要再加強，尤其不要讓他們那麼容易透過網購就可以直接購買。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:07:04.541286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:49.969857+08:00","text":"我們會持續的宣導、強化正確的認知，不要認為這是電子煙而輕忽了它的危害，因為當時在修法的時候，我們採取納管加熱菸，嚴禁電子煙，就是考量到電子煙的型態會不斷的改變，因為它的煙油、煙彈、內含物是什麼，會跟毒品去混合，所以當時委員也非常支持這樣的論點，因此我們是先納管加熱菸，但是嚴禁電子煙，所以我們會持續的去強化，讓年輕的朋友們可以理解，不要輕忽了它的危害。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-02T11:07:50.269857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:51.269857+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-02T11:07:51.569857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:52.712714+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T11:07:53.012714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:55.584143+08:00","text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-02T11:07:55.884143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-02T11:07:59.027000+08:00","text":"接下來請涂權吉委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時32分）謝謝主席，是不是繼續請部長？"],["主席：有請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：林委員早。"],["林委員淑芬：部長早。剛才在辦公室裡面聽你的答詢，有一點瞠目結舌，我們本來第一時間看到媒體報導披露，含苯駢芘致癌物質的油品是由廠商泰山自主公告說：我們比政府規定的半年驗一次還要更嚴格，我們四個月（一季）就驗一次。我告訴大家，我們有不合格、超標的，我們希望自主管理，要請大家下架並且回收。我本來以為是這樣子，結果你剛才……根本不是這樣子，這是令我們瞠目結舌，我剛才聽你講的，原來真相是中聯油脂、泰山、福壽及福懋，他們第一次自主檢驗數據是合格的，賣出去以後，下游廠商自己再驗一次，發現超標不合格。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員釐清，它的源頭來自同一家就是中聯油脂，中聯是供應商。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦！"],["石部長崇良：主要是中聯。"],["林委員淑芬：中聯是代工廠商，他們自主檢驗合格了，對不對？現在出問題的這一批油脂，中聯自己驗是合格的嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對，一開始、第一次。"],["林委員淑芬：人家下游廠商驗是不合格，請問這家下游廠商為什麼要驗？他是誰？哪一個廠商？通路商還是什麼？檢驗也要花錢啊！"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，因為油品到下游廠商，其實有的廠商自己對於食用的油品會再驗，就發現異常。"],["林委員淑芬：這個不是普通廠商啦！要花錢自己去驗的，絕對不是尋常廠商，是通路商還是哪一家廠商，你可以直接說嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：就我們了解第一次知道是南僑，所以他們把驗出來的……"],["林委員淑芬：南僑是要做什麼的？"],["姜署長至剛：他們本身是做油品的，做相關油品。"],["林委員淑芬：南僑據我所知不是食品加工業，是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：他是食品……"],["林委員淑芬：有嗎？南僑做什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：他是做油品的，也有餐飲及各方面都有。"],["林委員淑芬：他也是餐飲？"],["姜署長至剛：烘焙業也都有。"],["林委員淑芬：烘焙，好。"],["姜署長至剛：他們會使用相當多的油品。"],["林委員淑芬：所以中聯油脂驗出來都及格了，交貨給下游廠商，而下游廠商也是大廠商，他們謹慎地去驗出來是超標，超標通知中聯油脂，中聯油脂再驗才發現不及格，所以……"],["姜署長至剛：他把留廠的那個油再驗，他們其實販售出去後，還有油品會留在廠內。"],["林委員淑芬：不要講這種兜來兜去的。總之，自主檢驗是合格，被下游廠商檢驗出來出問題了、東窗事發了、紙包不住火了，他再驗一次就不合格了嘛！事情的經過是這樣子。因為對我們消費者而言，我們就百思不得其解，曾幾何時，有油品廠商這麼的誠實，會自己公告說：我的油有問題，請大家下架。本來以為這家食品業者怎麼這麼誠實，今天才發現，不是！是他被下游廠商驗出來超標，他才再驗一次，才跟大家講，因為大家都知道了，下游廠商都知道了。","我現在講這件事情很重要，為什麼？因為如果沒有南僑，如果沒有下游廠商謹慎的再驗一次，請問這一些超標的油品會下架嗎？請問他們會自主回收嗎？他們會公告不及格嗎？答案是不會。我要講，因為東窗事發，他才會再驗一次，才發現第一次及格，第二次不及格。我現在要跟部長及署長講，這個超標不是一點點，不是上游、下游一起把關，不是！是業者自主管理的假象和破功，對不對？如果沒有南僑自主管理，它就是合格、過去了，大家又繼續吞下去，可是這件事情很嚴重，為什麼？部長，因為這1,300噸，這裡面最嚴重的問題，它是18公升的營業業務用油！現在還有廠商就是福懋，他連批號幾號、他連它的流向是哪裡……中聯油脂是由3間廠商合資的嘛！分別是泰山、福懋、福壽。可是泰山跟福壽公布了它們用什麼包裝、批號是什麼，到現在還沒有看到福懋油脂公告，福懋還擺爛在那裡。"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我這邊有批號向您報告……"],["林委員淑芬：你有批號，不要跟我報告，請他們對社會公告。"],["姜署長至剛：好的。"],["林委員淑芬：不要跟我報告。"],["姜署長至剛：他們已經有公告了。"],["林委員淑芬：好。部長，我現在要跟你講，1,300噸換成營業用的，不管是餐廳、小吃店、大賣場、夜市，包括營養午餐，大家買的油品都是18公升，1,300噸換成18公升可以裝成幾桶，你算過嗎？你沒算過？我算了，是7萬2,222桶，這不是小事，7萬2,222桶18公升的這個鋪貨，鋪貨到全聯、家樂福、美聯社小包裝的，一般家庭的1公升、2公升的鋪貨在全聯、家樂福、美聯社，大家都是去這種地方買油，換成2公升包裝是65萬瓶，大包裝與小包裝比例是多少？你們有掌握嗎？不知道？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們有在盤點這個部分，會再跟委員報告。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你們繼續盤。18公升的，我告訴你全部最少數量、最小包裝的就18公升，是7.23萬桶，這個是全臺灣夜市、便當店、小吃店、餐廳，大概全部都中了，油炸的全部都中了，不要忘了，我剛才一開始就講的，他自主檢驗都合格，是下游廠商驗不合格，他才再驗，才變成不合格，如果沒有下游廠商再驗，我們就回頭要打個問號，請問他們以前驗的合格，真的是合格嗎？我現在問部長和署長，這些廠商自主檢驗在以前驗的合格是真的合格嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告一下，因為他們委託也是第三方檢驗單位，像第1次在4月份是委託SGS……"],["林委員淑芬：對，合格啊！"],["姜署長至剛：第2次的是愛之味幫忙驗，第3次他們再確認的時候，也是SGS。我們對於第三方檢驗，他是被核可確定它的製程跟檢驗過程，所以這部分我們是相對相信他們。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你講，他送驗的是什麼樣品不知道，然後出問題的是後市場，你交給廠商的是最準啦！交給廠商的跟你第一次送驗的是不是一樣？政府如果沒有在管，是不是一樣，你知道嗎？不知道！最後在驗的一定是剩下的那一些要留底的。所以我們都知道事先檢驗，政府如果沒有在管……我是要講，高風險的原料進入供應鏈以後，這個出問題大家都才知道，可是源頭出問題，它就是對社會影響最大的，而且是大的源頭，所以在這個裡面，我要跟你講，不只是數量大，再來，這一次檢出苯駢芘的數據是多少？"],["姜署長至剛：是2 ppb以下，就是每一公斤2毫克以下……"],["林委員淑芬：苯駢芘……"],["姜署長至剛：標準是2 ppb。"],["林委員淑芬：對，我說它檢出量是多少？"],["姜署長至剛：第一次是驗1.6……"],["林委員淑芬：我不要講第1次，第1次樣本是哪裡來的，我們不知道嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：後面是驗出8.1。"],["林委員淑芬：8.1，是2的4倍還超過。"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告一下，這個是牽涉到毒理學，它是慢性毒理，我們會擔心它的致癌物質，我們希望不要讓它……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！署長，其實你不需要在這個裡面跟我們打轉，它就是超標4倍，對我們人民來講，我們擔憂就在這裡，所以你不需要再講毒理怎麼樣、怎麼樣，超過0.1，我都不能接受……"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["林委員淑芬：更何況是超標4倍，如果不要用單一的致癌物質苯駢芘的數據，用你們食藥署的制度「降低食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物含量之作業指引」，你們PAHs的監測指標值是多少？就是整個PAHs的監測標準是10，而你看它整個數據總和加起來是10嗎？不是，總和加起來是21.3了吧！不要講致癌物質苯駢芘，包括這一些PAHs都是超標2倍，這個非常非常的嚴重，加總起來是21.3，超過監測值的2倍。如果單一來看，每一種這種高風險的化學物質，包括苯駢芘、Chrysene等通通都是超標，所以這個PAHs整體的污染已經超過了監測指標的2倍，很嚴重！所以我們要回過頭來講食安制度的監測和管理，食安的管理制度是要事前把關，源頭把關，所以我要講，這是事後，大家都吃下去了，你才發現它是大幅超標。所以我在這裡要跟部長和署長講幾件事。第一個，你們檢驗的頻率還要維持半年一次嗎？因為製油的產業是批次進貨、批次精製、批次出貨，對實際生產的批次來說，半年沒有辦法把關，而一個批次，你看這個批次1,300噸，所以部長，我們還要維持原來的制度嗎？現行的制度夠嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們會把這個事件調查清楚之後重新檢討，看要在哪個地方補破網，把它建立起來。"],["林委員淑芬：我在這裡具體建議，因為食用油脂的原料是逐批進貨、逐批加工，所以你們的檢驗是不是要改成依批次、依供應來源、依用途，提高檢驗的頻率？第二個，我們應該要把檢驗、預防放在前面，所以在檢驗結果出來以前不得放行，為什麼？你看中聯油脂聲明的第二點，他們要啟動每批次油品委外送驗，確保品質合格才可以放行出貨。是他們業者自己說的，業者可以做到每批次委外送驗。第三點，業者自己說爾後它要加嚴驗收原料及增加自主檢驗頻率。所以他們同意原料就要開始驗了，在這個狀況裡面，在檢驗結果出來前，送驗跟加工你們是不是要持續把關？原料驗好，原料沒問題，檢驗結果出來了才可以加工，這樣才能夠事前預防，源頭把關，而不要讓他們流入市場，大家都吃下肚了，才在那裡稽查和下架，來不及了。","第三個我要講，你看它的鋪貨，大桶的油7.23萬桶，小型的2公升65萬瓶，它鋪貨到全臺灣市占率最多的各大通路商，所以你們應該要求地方政府儘速掌握這65萬瓶，或者是幾萬瓶，它的完整流向到底鋪貨到哪裡，通路商要告訴我們吧！儘快公告通路商！老實說啦，大概大家都中了，可是大家聲明出來都說我們沒有。18公升算起來是七萬多桶，如果每家都說沒有，不然是誰買去？不知道，大家出來都說他們沒有，那是誰吃下去了？不知道，所以在這裡我要講的就是，18公升的大桶油，餐飲業、食品加工業、團膳，要如何知道到底是到哪裡去了？流向？因為我們就是要知道嘛，可是業者出來自清的都說沒有，沒有，那到底是誰有？","我現在要問第五個，大家談過的，這一批有問題的產品來源是什麼？我們的追溯追蹤系統要求他們保存原材料、半成品和成品來源，還要建立原料、半成品、成品供應來源及流向的追溯追蹤系統，你們這樣子追，有追出流向了嗎？全部流出都追出來了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：現在就是在按照這樣去追，看看裡面哪一個環節……"],["林委員淑芬：不是，業者沒有公布。你們不是必登嗎？不是追溯追蹤系統一定要登嗎？你們的系統勾稽得出來嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：目前是在持續地勾稽，因為我們昨天才知道這件事情，正在進行當中，確切的數字跟方向再跟委員做回報。"],["林委員淑芬：現在我再問你一個最根本的，就是一般如果他們自己自主檢驗異常，他們的標準流程要怎麼處理？"],["姜署長至剛：那個部分就不能夠當作原料來做供應了。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦，他們有沒有SOP？他們需不需要匯到中央來讓你們知道，主動通報？"],["姜署長至剛：有，要自主通報。"],["林委員淑芬：你們可不可以告訴我一次SOP是怎麼處理？"],["姜署長至剛：當業者自主檢驗有異常，它就必須到我們的「非登不可」系統裡面通報，像昨天的通報分別在3個時間，從6月30號下午4點到昨天下午3點，4家就陸陸續續通報了。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有通報有什麼罰則？第幾條？"],["姜署長至剛：目前我們通報的罰則是按照食安法，是3萬到300萬的罰則。"],["林委員淑芬：好。部長，現在你們要想一想，這個問題的癥結在於第一次合格，但下游檢驗不合格，然後它第二次再驗才發現不合格，這樣子會不會讓自主檢驗的社會信任度破功？因為自己檢驗如果沒有下游這一環，如果沒有南僑這一環，這個事情可能就沒了，大家就都吃下去了，只仰賴這個機制這樣對嗎？所以我問你最後一個問題，我們能不能有官方的後市場監測？對於高風險的、最源頭、影響大眾最重要的部分，其中一個就是油品，我們應該要有更多的後市場監測，是由官方來做，官方應該要有某種程度、頻率的後市場監測，就高風險的部分要求各地方政府每個月都要去抽、都要去驗，經常抽，經常驗，如果這次沒有南僑，他們就合格，就通過了。接下來，南僑不做，難道就沒有人要做嗎？我們政府應該要扛起這個責任，後市場監測你們有什麼計畫？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，其實我們過去就是三級品管，除了它自己檢驗、外部檢驗，另外還有一個就是我們會抽驗。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦，不要講這個了，從4月發生到現在……"],["石部長崇良：只是說抽驗的頻率……"],["林委員淑芬：你們抽驗的頻率是多麼低啦！"],["石部長崇良：對，因為我們都按照風險來嘛，但發生這個事情，我相信後面我們就會來檢討……"],["林委員淑芬：這個廠一天可以生產600噸的油品，600噸的風險就每天發生，然後你一年抽一次，這樣不行啦！我們現在要求你後市場監測，不要靠南僑，要靠我們政府，每年要求地方政府固定半個月、一個月，經常去市場、去通路商抽油，經常監測，好嗎？可以改進嗎？"],["石部長崇良：可以，我跟委員說明，我們會把這整個調查清楚之後，再來做後面的各種補強措施。"],["林委員淑芬：但是這也要做啊！"],["石部長崇良：對啊，後市場監測的部分我們本來就是在……"],["林委員淑芬：後市場監測的頻率、強度都要加強。"],["石部長崇良：對，看要怎麼設計才能夠真的發揮作用。"],["林委員淑芬：對，要有政府的角色啦，今天如果沒有南僑就沒人發現。好，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員發言。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時3分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：有請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：黃委員早。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，今天發生食用油含致癌物質的事件，雖然業者主動通報，但是從4月份生產的這些油脂到6月底主動通報，這兩個多月的時間，我們看到他製造的這種18公升的油，其實應該大部分都吃下肚了。我想請教的就是，從業者主動通報一直到所有的通路商下架這些有問題的產品，目前整個下架的狀況你們有掌握嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，這一個案件我們現在還在持續調查的部分，就是因為他在4月的時候有驗，當時驗的時候是合格的，那是到後面又有下游的廠商驗出來……"],["黃委員秀芳：那距離這個時間是差多……"],["石部長崇良：那我們在時間上，他們下游廠商一驗有問題，通報上來之後我們就啟動了，所以是6月30號他們通報上來，我們7月1號就發布下架，所以目前還在……"],["黃委員秀芳：那是昨天的事耶。"],["石部長崇良：對，所以現在還在彙整這些資料……"],["黃委員秀芳：現在大家在質疑的就是說，4月份生產的這些油脂，到6月份可能下游廠商他們自己再驗一次，然後發現有問題，其實在這兩個月當中，18公升的這些食用油應該早就在自助餐或者是夜市、餐廳，應該都已經大部分都已經吃下肚子裡面了。所以我想請教，在這兩個月當中，就像剛剛淑芬委員講的，你們可能半年去檢驗一次，其實我覺得這個頻率應該……時間太長了，未來針對這部分，我覺得應該我們也要再更主動一點，這個時間是不是要再縮短？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們會把這整個事件，因為他一開始驗是合格的，到後面下游才驗出不合格，所以這個事件我們會把它完全調查清楚，然後再來檢討哪個地方要強化，包含委員所提到的抽驗的頻率要不要縮短，要不要強化後市場的抽驗，這些我們會一併來檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得他這個檢驗應該也有問題，哪有差那麼多的，差4倍呢！"],["石部長崇良：對，因為檢驗也不是業者自己驗，他也是送給外部的單位驗……"],["黃委員秀芳：也是委外，是。"],["石部長崇良：至於檢驗的單位，後面驗出不合格的也是這個檢驗單位，所以到底這是樣本的問題，還是製造過程當中的問題，我們會把它釐清楚。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望真的要把這件事情釐清楚。因為油是每一個人每天都一定會吃到的，尤其現在外食族非常的多，幾乎大家三餐都是吃外面，所以食用油的部分我們真的要把關。尤其真的……"],["石部長崇良：是，一定。"],["黃委員秀芳：自助餐、餐廳、夜市這種地方，應該都會吃到這一批有問題的油，所以我們希望政府單位要嚴正的來把關。民眾的健康就是要由政府來把關，不是由業者，我覺得業者如果今天不主動通報的話，其實吃到肚子裡面也沒人知道，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。這個我們會強化，業者的責任也要有，因為這畢竟是影響到這麼多人每天的生活、飲食、健康，所以這個一定要強化，那政府的外部監督也會強化。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。我們也希望後續在通路，可能在超市裡面的這些油品是不是有確實的下架，我覺得這個應該也是要你們主動……"],["石部長崇良：好，會、會。"],["黃委員秀芳：再聯繫地方政府，是不是有主動要求他們要下架。民眾遇到這些有問題的油品，那退貨的部分是不是也……"],["石部長崇良：我們會依照我們過去的做法，我們第一波是先公布不合格的油品品項，接著就會去調查它的流向、通路到哪裡去，讓民眾會更清楚你是哪一段時間在哪個地方買的，那你應該要……"],["黃委員秀芳：好。那原本說15個品項，昨天臺中市那邊說變20個品項，那會不會更多？有沒有可能更多？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，這個部分我們其實一確定之後，希望把所有的盤出來，所以我們去查出來的有多少品項一定會即時的公告讓全民知道。"],["石部長崇良：我們一掌握就會發布新聞。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。那有沒有可能這些食用油也用於做加工，就是加工食品，餅乾啦或者是什麼……"],["石部長崇良：有可能。"],["黃委員秀芳：加工類的東西，這個是不是也要讓民眾知道？"],["石部長崇良：有。我們現在是這樣，他是B2C的就是直接販售給一般民眾的，我們會把公告它的流向、通路，讓大家回去退貨；至於是B2B直接再提供給下游業者的，也會通知相關的業者，如果業者還有存貨的話，當然就不應該再繼續使用。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得後面應該要再加強整個流向的追蹤。至於實驗室、檢驗室這方面可能也要再去釐清，到底是哪一個環節出問題，不然檢驗出來怎麼會差那麼多……"],["石部長崇良：是。好。"],["黃委員秀芳：究竟是原料的問題，或是在製造過程當中出問題，我覺得這個應該都要掌握。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。接下來，今天是有關菸害防制法修正草案的審查，我想請教的就是，其實我最喜歡以立法院來舉例，立法院不論是在我們群賢樓底下，或者是在康園旁邊的走廊，有很多我們的同仁可能會在這幾個地方吸菸，那當然我們希望是不是有可能設吸菸室，就像國外有的他們就有設吸菸室。當然，菸害防制法原本就規定室內不得吸菸，當然我認同室內不得吸菸，可是如果是設吸菸室的話是不是除外，我覺得這也應該可以去討論。如果不設吸菸室的話，大家都在外面吸菸，很多人就會吸到二手菸，所以我覺得與其這樣，應該是去設一個吸菸室，會比室內不得吸菸，然後大家就在室外吸菸……室外吸菸就是讓更多人吸到二手菸。部長，你回應一下。"],["石部長崇良：我們了解，委員的意思是希望減少被二手菸侵害，但是整個菸害防制法的精神，其實是儘量要去降低任何吸菸的可能性……"],["黃委員秀芳：當然。"],["石部長崇良：包含在各種公共空間，希望將其營造為無菸的環境，所以……"],["黃委員秀芳：是，可是這不太可能。"],["石部長崇良：這是最重要的立法精神。設吸菸室是不得已的辦法，如果在這個場域中真的沒有辦法一定要吸菸的話，那麼才去設置吸菸室，讓真的沒有辦法的民眾，連這一點時間都忍不住的，才讓他有一個吸菸的環境，避免去影響其他的人，其實精神是這樣。所以我們都覺得，像臺北市要去推動成為一個無菸的城市，這個是我們很支持，也覺得應該朝這個方向來努力。至於設吸菸室，既然室內是禁菸區，那麼吸菸室的設置也應該要符合儘量不影響他人，不要讓在吸菸室周邊的人很痛苦……"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["石部長崇良：所以要儘量讓吸菸室遠離人群，同時也不要去凸顯吸菸室的存在，誘導別人吸菸。好像我本來可以忍一下不要吸菸的，結果反而少了戒菸的動機，所以這也是在設置吸菸室的時候要一併去考量的。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然這個立意良善，就是能夠讓大家可以忍一下，然後不吸菸。可是部長，你應該也可以感受到的就是，很多場合大家在室內不能吸菸，可是他們就會在餐廳外面……"],["石部長崇良：到戶外吸菸。"],["黃委員秀芳：可能就在餐廳的門口外面，或者在角落吸菸，其實還是一樣會影響到其他人，所以我覺得像一些公共場合，應該可以考慮是不是可以在角落設吸菸室，當然這個吸菸室裡面的菸要經過處理才排放出來，我覺得這是可以減少對其他人的影響。"],["石部長崇良：對，就是說我們設吸菸室的先決條件是這個區域是禁菸區，如果沒有禁菸區又設吸菸室，那這個就沒有意義了。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["石部長崇良：所以一定是先劃定一個區域是禁菸，然後再來考慮合適的地點去把它劃成吸菸室或吸菸的區域。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。我看到臺北市這樣的吸菸區，我在想到底有多少人會進到這個柵欄裡面？到底有多少人會進去裡面吸菸？當然這個也是立意良善，就是說要吸菸的人就固定在這個地方吸菸，避免影響到其他人，這是立意良善，可是到底有多少人會因為有設這樣的一個吸菸區，然後進到這個吸菸區裡面吸菸？我們當然希望不要有那麼多人吸菸而危害自己的身體健康，當然先決條件也不要去危害其他人。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為沒吸菸的人聞到菸味其實是覺得很痛苦的，另外就是說……"],["石部長崇良：我看如果是靠近夜市，這個有點太近，如果這個區域是一個禁菸區的話，吸菸的點要遠離這些人群。"],["黃委員秀芳：旁邊就是機車停車的地方，對面就是一個夜市。"],["石部長崇良：這個太靠近了，並不是好的地點。我們剛剛提到，這個地點的選擇要遠離人群，不然你在這個地方吸菸不是濃度更高？大家都集中在這裡，周邊的人就受害了，所以這個地點的選擇也很重要。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來我想請教部長，現在的孩子尤其是國小、國中、高中的孩子，持有電子煙其實是滿嚴重的一個問題，所以我們也希望，當然針對今天的修法，就是持有的話，未來是有罰則，未來在這個平臺、網路平臺上，是不是能夠讓他不是那麼容易取得？或者不是那麼容易能夠透過網路去購買這些我們講的電子煙？因為在網路上其實還是看得到也買得到，所以我覺得未來針對這部分，我們應該還要再加強，尤其是在網路平臺。"],["石部長崇良：這次修法我們也有特別注意到這個部分，因為現在電子煙很多銷售、販賣的管道是透過電子媒體，所以我們在這一次修法裡面會去強化業者、平臺業者管理的義務跟責任，以及需要配合的部分。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們有賦予它有這樣的責任，不得販賣對不對？"],["石部長崇良：應該是這樣講，我們現在其實是有一個管理的要點，是希望這個業者要做到的，譬如說，它要自己去把關，關於菸品的廣告，不能夠上在它的……這個商品在販賣的時候不要有廣告、不要有菸品的廣告，另外它要有一個把關的機制，對於非法的加熱菸也好，或者是電子煙也好，不要給它上架，所以它要有管理screening、篩選的義務，未來如果立法之後就會更強制，就等於是已經有法律授權的法規，就會有對應的罰則。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然還沒完成立法之前，我覺得你們應該也要跟這些平臺再加強……"],["石部長崇良：有，我們有一個規範給他們。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，要不然目前我們高中以下的學生持有電子煙的狀況其實是嚴重的。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：有時候學校的老師會有一些反映，認為這個部分政府應該也要再加強，尤其不要讓他們那麼容易透過網購就可以直接購買。"],["石部長崇良：我們會持續的宣導、強化正確的認知，不要認為這是電子煙而輕忽了它的危害，因為當時在修法的時候，我們採取納管加熱菸，嚴禁電子煙，就是考量到電子煙的型態會不斷的改變，因為它的煙油、煙彈、內含物是什麼，會跟毒品去混合，所以當時委員也非常支持這樣的論點，因此我們是先納管加熱菸，但是嚴禁電子煙，所以我們會持續的去強化，讓年輕的朋友們可以理解，不要輕忽了它的危害。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員發言。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":248,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-17","speakers":["林月琴","王正旭","王育敏","林倩綺","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","邱鎮軍","林淑芬","黃秀芳","涂權吉","盧縣一","劉建國","蘇清泉","許忠信","張雅琳","傅崐萁","陳冠廷","廖偉翔","楊曜","陳瑩","游顥"],"page_start":161,"meetingDate":["2026-07-02"],"gazette_id":"1155701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155701_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「菸害防制法第二十六條條文修正草案」案、二、委員黃健豪等\n17人擬具「菸害防制法第三十七條條文修正草案」案、三、委員羅智強等17人擬具「菸害防制法\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、四、委員羅智強等 17 人擬具「菸害防制法第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、五、委員吳宗憲等17人擬具「菸害防制法第四條條文修正草案」案、六、委員陳秀寳等\n20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案、七、委員林月琴等22人擬具「菸害防制法部分條\n文修正草案」案、八、委員王育敏等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案、九、委員呂\n玉玲等16人擬具「菸害防制法增訂第七條之一條文草案」案、十、委員邱若華等17人擬具「菸害\n防制法第三條及第十五條條文修正草案」案、十一、委員陳超明等31人擬具「菸害防制法部分條\n文修正草案」案、十二、委員王義川等17人擬具「菸害防制法第三十二條及第四十條條文修正草\n案」案、十三、委員林倩綺等22人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案、十四、委員陳菁徽\n等21人擬具「菸害防制法第十五條條文修正草案」案、十五、委員林思銘等20人擬具「菸害防制\n法部分條文修正草案」案、十六、委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案、\n十七、委員賴瑞隆等17人擬具「菸害防制法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155701_00011"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}