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局長你剛才提到這個東西今天是講的是國際的劑毒我們就我們都知道嘛毒品是危害全世界的大家看到毒品每個國家都喊打回去請問你我們過去2009年跟大陸有一個兩岸共打的條例協議共同打擊犯罪現在這個機制沒有了嗎"},{"start":59.982,"end":60.824,"text":"目前運作狀況"},{"start":65.618,"end":92.531,"text":"這位是跟委員報告那兩岸共打這個部分是刑事警察局我們兩岸科在負責的那事實上現在目前還是有那我們這個案件我們事實上我們提供了146件的情資提供給我們中國大陸那中國大陸也提供了80件那兩邊合作偵破的案件有7件這是最近我們在最近是毒品方面的都有各類的案件"},{"start":93.371,"end":121.358,"text":"那毒品有多少?毒品,我沒有去細分毒品,這七件裡面是全部啦那大部分的案件,毒品應該也有,也有幾件,我知道有幾件這個我特別請蔡局長出來,就是說這是因為你是提供親自的嘛第一手資料在你的手上嘛,對不對那我查了一下相關資料我們重大的外逃通緝犯,就逃到國外去的啦"},{"start":122.818,"end":134.205,"text":"這裡面來講大陸是佔了56%超過一半是討到大陸去然後大陸的案件裡面主要是經濟犯66%屬於經濟犯貪污犯及毒品兩個加起來30%所以我就是問一下就是說局長"},{"start":147.917,"end":173.999,"text":"這個東西你也了解嘛兩岸關係現在是緊張的嘛所以兩岸的共打機制這麼重要的一個共打機制現在幾乎快沒有了弄了半天就七千打擊結果就七千而已啊事實上來講的話聯合國都點名台灣成為詐騙洗清中心而且聯合國也點名台灣是國際的販毒據點這個對吧"},{"start":176.681,"end":198.259,"text":"那跟委員說明一下那兩岸事實上有這種共打的機制他應該建立在說打擊跨國犯罪他應該不要受到任何政治因素的一個干預我們現在有干預嗎現在有政治干預嗎因為現在中國大陸對於跟我方政府的一個官方高階層的接觸他是有擋定一些政治條件我覺得這個要呼籲啦不管哪一個國家中國大陸也好"},{"start":202.182,"end":229.85,"text":"我覺得打擊毒品不要有意識心態打擊毒品全世界所有國家大家的責任因為毒品危害對世界世界的危害是非常的非常的嚴重那我再請教你除了中國大陸以外我們跟其他國家有沒有跨國的這個合作劑毒的機制有那幾個國家跟我們講一個"},{"start":232.567,"end":248.764,"text":"哪幾個國家?來這個部分因為剛剛調查局也有講通過法務秘書在20個國家23個國家然後派駐30個法務秘書那跟當地的警察跟執法單位針對這種毒品的案件跟打擊跨國犯罪都有非常緊密的一個合作"},{"start":249.673,"end":262.756,"text":"我看了一下相關的資料那個名單應該專報裡面都有列出來我看了一下說我們的台灣的這些毒販逃到國外去啊他不是跑去國外幹什麼是跑去國外變成操控啊在國外操控國內啊操控台灣啊這樣的點我請教一下那個是調查局是哪一位長官跟我們講一下這些我們台灣的毒販到國際去"},{"start":278.001,"end":283.134,"text":"有幾個點有沒有數字各位報告主要是東南亞國家"},{"start":284.178,"end":308.181,"text":"那我們在監控當中如果有發現集團其實我們在某個案子中有發現某個集團跑到馬來西亞我們經由搜報之後就積極的把經過檢察官同意之後把這個資訊呢就傳到馬來西亞的那個警察局那個宿毒局的部分然後在一百一十年我們查獲了一個製毒工廠這是在海外查獲的所以我們在23國有那可以相關的人可以印度回來嗎"},{"start":309.967,"end":330.323,"text":"因為他的犯罪地點是在馬來西亞的他的工廠是在馬來西亞所以等於我們的毒販討到國外去成立據點然後在國外遙控台灣我們沒有辦法這個Case是在馬來西亞製毒對啊我知道啊但是那個主事者是台灣人啊對不對"},{"start":332.364,"end":353.216,"text":"對嘛 就主要的那個頭頭啊 對不對大毒梟 這個是台灣過去的啊是 因為我們都會積極地溯源雖然我們在現場抓不管抓到多少人那我們的案件中已經溯源哪一些是主嫌 哪一些是幕後的這種操控者我們都會積極地查辦我時間到了 最後就提醒那個採取彰化"},{"start":354.588,"end":357.669,"text":"我們台灣是不是要變成一個亞太營運中心最近金管會還說我們要變成亞太資產管理中心要取代香港的一些的工人很好 有這樣的做法 企圖性很好可是台灣現在已經變成詐騙與販毒中心這才可怕在這裡"},{"start":379.439,"end":405.174,"text":"這是聯絡國點名的咧不是我們隨便講的咧2025年就被聯絡國點名台灣變成詐騙洗錢中心這國安局沒有辦法做一點事情對這部分剛剛也有跟其他委員說明因為有很多的司法查辦是檢方高檢署在指揮偵辦的那國安局這邊我們還是情報機關不過我們應該要拉高到像委員講的以國安的層級來看待這些問題"},{"start":405.794,"end":432.81,"text":"這當然是國安法對不對所以我們會做的是用情報來支援相關司法單位來來來我請教最後一句話那個警政署刑事警察局的林副局長跟我們解釋一下可以嗎對於這兩個東西都是跟你們有關係我就跟你講一個具體的我開過公聽會一對夫妻被騙了他退休被騙了兩千萬"},{"start":434.534,"end":438.981,"text":"我把你們的人找來 長官找來結果你給大家的答案是說錢不會錢它不會來啦錢幾乎它不會來啦我就問你詐騙的錢大概拿回來比例多高比例多高"},{"start":450.429,"end":466.276,"text":"跟我們報告雖然講的這個是實話但是跟被害人來講我想每一個人都抱有希望那我們現在當然實體的還有虛擬貨幣的部分我們光去年科技中心有查過將近百億"},{"start":467.369,"end":492.9,"text":"的虛擬貨幣但是這個部分要透過司法單位最後它不是簡單的一個帳戶對帳戶如果簡單的馬上依照造行條例馬上可以緩緩但是它層層的很多的金流是交織在一起的這是要釐清了以後才有辦法透過虛擬公司去緩緩被害人所以不是沒有緩緩的機會還是有啦比例多少嗎當然是很低啦低到多少"},{"start":493.41,"end":503.898,"text":"低到多少 這個我不敢在這個地方 因為這個部分我還要再周圍再下去你們的長官 刑事局的長官 警政署的長官在我的工地會講說10% 10%不低喔 有10%嗎這個我還在想算應該沒有吧 要多久時間拿回來那10%"},{"start":516.872,"end":533.345,"text":"多久的時間?大部分,除了我們造訪條例,剛剛跟委員報告,除了簡單的金流,造訪條例有一個特殊的可以緩緩悲哀的人,不然大部分都要等到判刑確定。那多久?那個司法進行大概好幾年了。"},{"start":534.805,"end":553.133,"text":"五年所以你現在告訴我們的是說如果被詐欺了大概五年內這個錢一毛錢都拿不回來所以我們現在事實上為什麼說市詐非常重要在源頭管理的部分我們一直從這方面來做今天的數字很可怕"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:25.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:00:27.933000+08:00","text":"（11時）謝謝主席以及各位先進。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:27.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:00:46.840000+08:00","text":"有請國安局蔡局長、內政部馬次長、警政署刑事警察局林副局長以及調查局連副局長。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:46.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:00:47.241000+08:00","text":"請以上人員就備詢台。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:47.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:00:48.241000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:47.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:00:47.941000+08:00","text":"好，以上幾位長官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:00:53.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:07.770000+08:00","text":"局長，你剛才提到……今天講的是國際的緝毒，我們都知道毒品是危害全世界的，大家看到毒品，每個國家都喊打，我現在請問你，我們2009年跟大陸有一個海峽兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議，現在這個機制沒有了嗎？","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:23.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:24.824000+08:00","text":"我請刑事警察局說明一下目前運作狀況。","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:29.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:29.798000+08:00","text":"這位是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:30.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:54.029000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，兩岸共打的部分是刑事警察局兩岸科在負責的，事實上，現在還是有，我們提供146件情資給中國大陸，中國大陸也提供了80件，兩邊合作偵破的案件有7件，這是最近我們在……","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:54.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:55.490000+08:00","text":"7件是毒品方面的？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:55.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:56.511000+08:00","text":"都有，各類的案件。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:57.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:58.051000+08:00","text":"毒品案件有多少？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:00.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:08.474000+08:00","text":"我沒有去細分，這7件是指全部，大部分的案件……毒品應該也有幾件，我知道有幾件。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:08.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:18.476000+08:00","text":"我特別請蔡局長出來，因為你是提供情資的，第一手資料在你的手上，對不對？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:18.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:37.485000+08:00","text":"我查了一下相關資料，我們重大的外逃通緝犯，就是逃到國外去的，這裡面來講，大陸占了56%，超過一半是逃到大陸去，然後這些逃到大陸的案件裡面主要是經濟犯，66%屬於經濟犯，貪污犯及毒品兩個加起來30%。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:37.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:17.979000+08:00","text":"所以我問一下局長，這個東西你也了解，兩岸關係現在是緊張的嘛，所以兩岸這麼重要的共打機制，現在幾乎快沒有了，弄了老半天就7件，打擊結果就7件而已，事實上，聯合國都點名臺灣成為詐騙洗錢中心，而且聯合國也點名臺灣是國際的販毒據點，這個對嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:20.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:33.212000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明一下，事實上兩岸有這種共打的機制，應該建立在打擊跨國犯罪，不要受到任何政治因素的干預。有嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:33.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:34.473000+08:00","text":"現在有政治干預嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:34.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:40.878000+08:00","text":"對，現在政治因素……因為現在中國大陸對於跟我方政府的官方高階層接觸，他是有綁定一些政治條件，所以造成真的要打擊的時候……","quality":0.623},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:41.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:50.883000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個要呼籲，不管哪個國家，中國大陸也好，我覺得打擊毒品不要有意識形態。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:50.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:51.883000+08:00","text":"對，不分邊界，當然是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:50.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:55.525000+08:00","text":"打擊毒品是全世界所有國家大家的責任。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:55.525000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:56.525000+08:00","text":"對，要做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:56.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:01.706000+08:00","text":"因為毒品對世界的危害是非常嚴重的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:02.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:13.269000+08:00","text":"我再請教你，除了中國大陸以外，我們跟其他國家有沒有跨國合作緝毒的機制？有。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:13.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:13.489000+08:00","text":"哪幾個國家？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:13.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:13.850000+08:00","text":"跟我們講一個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:17.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:32.744000+08:00","text":"這個部分剛剛調查局也有講，他們在23個國家派駐30個法務秘書，跟當地的警察跟執法單位針對這種毒品案件跟打擊跨國犯罪都有非常緊密的合作。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:33.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:35.513000+08:00","text":"我看了一下相關的資料……","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:35.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:37.314000+08:00","text":"這個名單應該專報裡面都有列出來。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:37.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:03.445000+08:00","text":"我看了一下，臺灣的這些毒販逃到國外去，他不是跑去國外要幹什麼，是變成跑去國外操控國內、操控臺灣，這樣的點，我請教調查局，跟我們講一下，臺灣的這些毒販到國際去有幾個點？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:03.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:04.407000+08:00","text":"有沒有數字？","quality":1},{"speaker":"連副局長震宗","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:06.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:29.939000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，主要是東南亞國家，我們在監控當中如果有發現集團，其實我們在某個案子中有發現某個集團跑到馬來西亞，我們蒐報並經過檢察官同意之後，就積極地把這個資訊傳到馬來西亞的肅毒局，在114年有查獲一個製毒工廠，這是在海外查獲的，所以我們在23國有30個法務秘書……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:30.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:32.181000+08:00","text":"相關的人可以引渡回來嗎？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"連副局長震宗","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:33.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:38.931000+08:00","text":"因為他的犯罪地點是在馬來西亞，他的工廠是在馬來西亞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:38.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:47.097000+08:00","text":"所以等於我們的毒販跑到國外去成立據點，然後在國外遙控臺灣，我們沒有辦法，是不是？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"連副局長震宗","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:47.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:49.159000+08:00","text":"這個case是在馬來西亞製毒。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:50.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:54.323000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是那個主事者是臺灣人，是不是這樣？對吧？對。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:56.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:03.208000+08:00","text":"就是主要的那個頭頭，要打毒梟，結果是臺灣人過去的。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"連副局長震宗","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:03.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:10.572000+08:00","text":"是，因為我們都會積極地溯源，雖然我們在現場抓，不管抓到多少人，我們在案件中已經溯源，哪一些是主嫌？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"連副局長震宗","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:10.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:15.194000+08:00","text":"哪一些是幕後的操控者，我們都會積極地查辦。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:15.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:15.895000+08:00","text":"我時間到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:16.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:54.666000+08:00","text":"最後就提醒蔡局長好了，臺灣說要變成一個亞太營運中心了，最近金管會還說，我們要變成亞太資產管理中心，要取代香港的一些功能，很好，有這樣的做法，企圖心很好，可是臺灣現在已經變成詐騙與販毒中心了，可怕在這裡，這是聯合國點名的，還不是我們隨便講的，2025年就被聯合國點名，臺灣變成詐騙洗錢中心，國安局沒有辦法做一點事情嗎？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:56.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:09.174000+08:00","text":"針對這部分剛剛也有跟其他委員說明，因為有很多司法查辦是檢方（高檢署）在指揮偵辦的，國安局這邊還是情報機關，不過，我們應該要拉高到像委員講的，以國安的層級來看待這些問題。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:09.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:10.554000+08:00","text":"這個當然是國安吧，對不對？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:10.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:14.357000+08:00","text":"所以我們會做的是用情報來支援相關司法單位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:14.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:25.503000+08:00","text":"我請教最後一句話，警政署刑事警察局的林副局長，你跟我們解釋一下可以嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:25.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:41.759000+08:00","text":"對於這兩個東西都是跟你們有關係，我就跟你講一個具體的，我開過公聽會，一對夫妻被騙了，他退休被騙了2,000萬，我把你們的長官找來，結果你們給大家的答案是說：錢幾乎拿不回來了。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:41.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:42.960000+08:00","text":"我就問你，詐騙的錢大概拿回來的比例有多高？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:54.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:32.898000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，雖然講的這個是實話，但是對被害人來講，我想每一個人都抱有希望，當然現在實體的還有虛擬貨幣的部分，我們光去年科技中心有查扣將近百億的虛擬貨幣，但是這個部分要透過司法單位，它不是一個簡單的帳戶對帳戶，如果簡單的，依照詐防條例馬上可以返還，但是它是很多金流層層交織在一起的，這要釐清了以後，才有辦法透過虛擬貨幣公司去返還被害人，所以不是沒有返還的機會，還是有啦！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:33.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:33.879000+08:00","text":"比例多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:34.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:35.119000+08:00","text":"當然是很低。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:36.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:36.880000+08:00","text":"低到多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:38.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:40.632000+08:00","text":"我不敢在這個地方……因為這個部分，我還要再做一些詳細……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:41.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:46.757000+08:00","text":"你們刑事局的長官、警政署的長官，在我的公聽會講說10%，10%不低喔，有10%嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:46.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:46.937000+08:00","text":"這個我還要再詳算。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:47.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:47.077000+08:00","text":"應該沒有吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:47.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:47.878000+08:00","text":"要多久時間可以拿回來？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:04.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:15.303000+08:00","text":"一般我們除了剛剛跟委員報告的詐防條例，除了簡單的金流，詐防條例有一個特殊的可以返還被害人，不然大部分都要等到判刑確定，如果這些東西……多久？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:15.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:18.945000+08:00","text":"司法進行大概好幾年。五年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:18.945000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:20.966000+08:00","text":"三到五年要。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:20.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:28.950000+08:00","text":"所以你現在告訴我們的是，如果被詐欺了，大概五年內一毛錢都拿不回來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:30.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:32.731000+08:00","text":"事實上，為什麼我們現在說識詐非常重要？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"林副局長故廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:32.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:35.593000+08:00","text":"在源頭管理的部分，我們一直從這方面來做，跟委員報告。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:36.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:37.113000+08:00","text":"你今天的數字很可怕，謝謝。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:37.613000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:39.898714+08:00","text":"謝謝賴委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:40.198714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:45.913000+08:00","text":"下面是林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（陳委員永康代）","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:46.213000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:49.641571+08:00","text":"下面請馬文君委員質詢，謝謝。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":446,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請國安局蔡局長、內政部馬次長、警政署刑事警察局林副局長以及調查局連副局長。"],["主席：請以上人員就備詢台。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：好，以上幾位長官。局長，你剛才提到……今天講的是國際的緝毒，我們都知道毒品是危害全世界的，大家看到毒品，每個國家都喊打，我現在請問你，我們2009年跟大陸有一個海峽兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議，現在這個機制沒有了嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我請刑事警察局說明一下目前運作狀況。"],["賴委員士葆：這位是？"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，兩岸共打的部分是刑事警察局兩岸科在負責的，事實上，現在還是有，我們提供146件情資給中國大陸，中國大陸也提供了80件，兩邊合作偵破的案件有7件，這是最近我們在……"],["賴委員士葆：7件是毒品方面的？"],["林副局長故廷：都有，各類的案件。"],["賴委員士葆：毒品案件有多少？"],["林副局長故廷：我沒有去細分，這7件是指全部，大部分的案件……毒品應該也有幾件，我知道有幾件。"],["賴委員士葆：我特別請蔡局長出來，因為你是提供情資的，第一手資料在你的手上，對不對？我查了一下相關資料，我們重大的外逃通緝犯，就是逃到國外去的，這裡面來講，大陸占了56%，超過一半是逃到大陸去，然後這些逃到大陸的案件裡面主要是經濟犯，66%屬於經濟犯，貪污犯及毒品兩個加起來30%。所以我問一下局長，這個東西你也了解，兩岸關係現在是緊張的嘛，所以兩岸這麼重要的共打機制，現在幾乎快沒有了，弄了老半天就7件，打擊結果就7件而已，事實上，聯合國都點名臺灣成為詐騙洗錢中心，而且聯合國也點名臺灣是國際的販毒據點，這個對嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明一下，事實上兩岸有這種共打的機制，應該建立在打擊跨國犯罪，不要受到任何政治因素的干預。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？現在有政治干預嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，現在政治因素……因為現在中國大陸對於跟我方政府的官方高階層接觸，他是有綁定一些政治條件，所以造成真的要打擊的時候……"],["賴委員士葆：我覺得這個要呼籲，不管哪個國家，中國大陸也好，我覺得打擊毒品不要有意識形態。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，不分邊界，當然是。"],["賴委員士葆：打擊毒品是全世界所有國家大家的責任。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，要做。"],["賴委員士葆：因為毒品對世界的危害是非常嚴重的。我再請教你，除了中國大陸以外，我們跟其他國家有沒有跨國合作緝毒的機制？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["賴委員士葆：哪幾個國家？跟我們講一個。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分剛剛調查局也有講，他們在23個國家派駐30個法務秘書，跟當地的警察跟執法單位針對這種毒品案件跟打擊跨國犯罪都有非常緊密的合作。"],["賴委員士葆：我看了一下相關的資料……"],["蔡局長明彥：這個名單應該專報裡面都有列出來。"],["賴委員士葆：我看了一下，臺灣的這些毒販逃到國外去，他不是跑去國外要幹什麼，是變成跑去國外操控國內、操控臺灣，這樣的點，我請教調查局，跟我們講一下，臺灣的這些毒販到國際去有幾個點？有沒有數字？"],["連副局長震宗：跟委員報告，主要是東南亞國家，我們在監控當中如果有發現集團，其實我們在某個案子中有發現某個集團跑到馬來西亞，我們蒐報並經過檢察官同意之後，就積極地把這個資訊傳到馬來西亞的肅毒局，在114年有查獲一個製毒工廠，這是在海外查獲的，所以我們在23國有30個法務秘書……"],["賴委員士葆：相關的人可以引渡回來嗎？"],["連副局長震宗：因為他的犯罪地點是在馬來西亞，他的工廠是在馬來西亞。"],["賴委員士葆：所以等於我們的毒販跑到國外去成立據點，然後在國外遙控臺灣，我們沒有辦法，是不是？"],["連副局長震宗：這個case是在馬來西亞製毒。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，但是那個主事者是臺灣人，是不是這樣？對吧？"],["連副局長震宗：對。"],["賴委員士葆：就是主要的那個頭頭，要打毒梟，結果是臺灣人過去的。"],["連副局長震宗：是，因為我們都會積極地溯源，雖然我們在現場抓，不管抓到多少人，我們在案件中已經溯源，哪一些是主嫌？哪一些是幕後的操控者，我們都會積極地查辦。"],["賴委員士葆：我時間到了。最後就提醒蔡局長好了，臺灣說要變成一個亞太營運中心了，最近金管會還說，我們要變成亞太資產管理中心，要取代香港的一些功能，很好，有這樣的做法，企圖心很好，可是臺灣現在已經變成詐騙與販毒中心了，可怕在這裡，這是聯合國點名的，還不是我們隨便講的，2025年就被聯合國點名，臺灣變成詐騙洗錢中心，國安局沒有辦法做一點事情嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：針對這部分剛剛也有跟其他委員說明，因為有很多司法查辦是檢方（高檢署）在指揮偵辦的，國安局這邊還是情報機關，不過，我們應該要拉高到像委員講的，以國安的層級來看待這些問題。"],["賴委員士葆：這個當然是國安吧，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：所以我們會做的是用情報來支援相關司法單位。"],["賴委員士葆：我請教最後一句話，警政署刑事警察局的林副局長，你跟我們解釋一下可以嗎？對於這兩個東西都是跟你們有關係，我就跟你講一個具體的，我開過公聽會，一對夫妻被騙了，他退休被騙了2,000萬，我把你們的長官找來，結果你們給大家的答案是說：錢幾乎拿不回來了。我就問你，詐騙的錢大概拿回來的比例有多高？"],["林副局長故廷：跟委員報告，雖然講的這個是實話，但是對被害人來講，我想每一個人都抱有希望，當然現在實體的還有虛擬貨幣的部分，我們光去年科技中心有查扣將近百億的虛擬貨幣，但是這個部分要透過司法單位，它不是一個簡單的帳戶對帳戶，如果簡單的，依照詐防條例馬上可以返還，但是它是很多金流層層交織在一起的，這要釐清了以後，才有辦法透過虛擬貨幣公司去返還被害人，所以不是沒有返還的機會，還是有啦！"],["賴委員士葆：比例多少？"],["林副局長故廷：當然是很低。"],["賴委員士葆：低到多少？"],["林副局長故廷：我不敢在這個地方……因為這個部分，我還要再做一些詳細……"],["賴委員士葆：你們刑事局的長官、警政署的長官，在我的公聽會講說10%，10%不低喔，有10%嗎？"],["林副局長故廷：這個我還要再詳算。"],["賴委員士葆：應該沒有吧？要多久時間可以拿回來？"],["林副局長故廷：一般我們除了剛剛跟委員報告的詐防條例，除了簡單的金流，詐防條例有一個特殊的可以返還被害人，不然大部分都要等到判刑確定，如果這些東西……"],["賴委員士葆：多久？"],["林副局長故廷：司法進行大概好幾年。"],["賴委員士葆：五年？"],["林副局長故廷：三到五年要。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你現在告訴我們的是，如果被詐欺了，大概五年內一毛錢都拿不回來？"],["林副局長故廷：事實上，為什麼我們現在說識詐非常重要？在源頭管理的部分，我們一直從這方面來做，跟委員報告。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天的數字很可怕，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：謝謝賴委員的質詢。","下面是林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員不在。","下面請馬文君委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-25","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","牛煦庭","王安祥","王義川","徐巧芯","黃建賓","賴士葆","陳冠廷","王定宇","黃仁","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-06"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、內政部、法務部報告「新興毒品走私之國安情資整合與跨國緝毒協\n同作為」，併請海洋委員會海巡署、財政部關務署、國防部憲兵指揮部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}