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地檢署以他自案偵辦喔那但是現在的受害人看起來可能不計其數喔尤其是連我們立法院的小吃部喔都用到這個問題獨有喔所以如果真的要求償起來數目會相當可觀那所以請教法務部這個檢察官在這種重大的食安喔這個在偵辦的初期什麼狀況之下會同步申請扣押追偵或及保全這個犯罪所得"},{"start":87.928,"end":109.105,"text":"跟委員報告一下 首先這個案件像這種重大的打擊民生犯罪事件我們法務部都會要求各地檢署重視所以在115年7月4號的時候 中檢這邊分他案調查那我們在這個啟動的案件之中 事實上可能我應該是 這個也不是只有台中一個單獨地檢署"},{"start":110.206,"end":139.486,"text":"現在看台北各縣市都有這樣的狀況有可能是高檢署這邊來做一個統籌請各地檢署針對於這樣的案件用專案專組然後的指派專業檢察官特別來去做這樣的事情只要發現到任何跟犯罪有關或者有需要立刻處理的部分一定會重塑重研的處理另外我們還會跟衛福部前幾天衛福部的那個石部長有提到就是會跟我們這個法務部兩邊來做跨部會的一個這樣聯合的一個去處理"},{"start":139.966,"end":153.563,"text":"因為現在我們要預防的是說業者會不會脫產因為在那個整個訴訟的過程中也許非常的這個漫長那所以導致有可能業者會脫產那大家就算到時候就算判了刑呢但是也變成說大家賠償根本拿不到"},{"start":156.868,"end":179.459,"text":"對,這個部分的話就是檢察官在偵辦個案上我們會提醒他們注意啦但是基本上個案的部分是地檢署他們會依照他們自己檢察官在辦案上對,因為這件案件就像剛剛獨游事件就像剛剛您提到的這樣就是事實上可能是全國各縣市都有這樣的一個問題目前當然爆發出來有幾個縣市那還有些像營養午餐的這個"},{"start":181.56,"end":201.814,"text":"什麼連國軍都有吃到這樣的毒油所以我覺得這個案件事實上非常的重大所以說事實上我們在這個做除了您剛提到的說必須要重塑重塑重演的方式來去執行的話我覺得這個部分可能要請法務部這邊也要特別的來去注重因為畢竟是全民"},{"start":203.795,"end":220.321,"text":"都有可能遇到的一個問題喔那另外想請教副秘書長就是說這次最大的問題是在外食者那民眾吃到的有可能是便當啊鹹酥雞啦這種團善業者也不曉得是使用哪個批號的沙拉油請問在現行的這個民事訴訟下"},{"start":221.181,"end":248.203,"text":"民眾如果沒有發票沒有批號沒有店家的進貨的紀錄要如何證明自己有吃到問題油那如果法院仍要求個別的消費者完整的舉證是不是會等於障礙食者雖然可能受害但卻沒辦法求償這可能是有團體訴訟的方式或是食安基金來做處理啦因為如果回歸告民事訴訟的舉證責任的話的確有委員所講是有相關的困難的問題"},{"start":250.345,"end":269.615,"text":"那所以您所謂的團體訴訟大概可以用什麼的方式可能是由消費者保護的基金會來登記讓大家來進行團體訴訟所以現在現行的法律是可以這樣是嗎現在是有團體訴訟這個方式對我們可以看一下就是下一張"},{"start":272.216,"end":287.903,"text":"因為現在的這個就是團體訴訟的部分有比較這個各自法嗎就是因為不義證明我們就可以有公益團體的訴訟的機制比如說請合格的消保團體也可以代表多數的受害者提起訴訟"},{"start":290.615,"end":317.165,"text":"目前是可行的就對了另外再請教副秘書長日前就是有一個超商的女店員因為75元的咖啡漏結帳遭起訴一審判刑三個月最後高院改判無罪並指出司法不應該成為私人企業的威嚇工具人民看到的是少兒職場的糾紛可以動用刑事程序但吃下問題由的外食族可能因為舉證的困難"},{"start":318.786,"end":332.638,"text":"而沒求助我們請問法務部如何避免檢察權被企業拿來處理內部的管理問題那司法院又如何避免刑事的審判讓司法真正看見人民面對重大食安的制度的困境"},{"start":334.481,"end":353.575,"text":"跟委員報告事實上檢察官在偵辦案件上他主要看的還是證據啦有沒有案件上到底是不是說有竊盜的一個主觀翻譯來去做判斷那我們的檢察官當時可能認為說這個個案上我們當然不會去指導但是如果認為是符合竊盜罪的話他就會提起公訴"},{"start":354.255,"end":374.186,"text":"那這個法院的部分的話至於法院判有罪或者是良刑多少的部分這個就由法院這邊去做判斷我們希望的是說希望就是以這樣子的一個案件的話不要避免就是說因為舉證不義而造成最後事實上真正受害的這些民眾沒有辦法有求償的一個機會"},{"start":375.066,"end":395.064,"text":"是 因為我們針對於說就是像是有提起 告訴人提起的告訴然後我們也判斷符合構成要件該當的部分我們就會依法的去提起公訴好 謝謝那副部長您請回喔剛剛委員所提到這個超商店員這個案子那可能涉及到他到底有沒有主觀犯意的問題"},{"start":396.025,"end":416.054,"text":"到底有沒有主觀翻譯 還是回歸到他這個證據的顯示這部分那因為在屬於個案 我這邊不做深入的去評論但是從客觀的主法要件 或者是主觀的翻譯這部分可能是法院要去很深入的根據事實或是根據證據來去做了解來做一個比較適當的判決好 謝謝 副名長您請回不好意思 還在請教次長"},{"start":426.756,"end":439.162,"text":"市長接下來要請教您有關這個毒價的案子那因為現在的這個毒價當然這個很猖狂嘛所以說我們也擺一坨米紙這個已經也經過獨省會的審查已經列為一級毒品但現在有一個狀況就是根據刑事局114年11月到115年3月的這個毒價統計檢查出"},{"start":451.068,"end":466.21,"text":"安非他命占70.06%K他命高达21.88%那都超过依托米指的16.73%但请问一下现在的这个K他命在这个毒品危害防治条例的分级下是属于第几级"},{"start":469.269,"end":493.42,"text":"是第三級那其實它的嚴重性比依托彌哲還高目前獨家的比例那它才只是第三級的這種行政罰就是罰還跟講習這會不會讓這個我們真正在緝毒的第一線的這些員警在執行上有陷入很巨大的這個無力感跟這個嚇阻的一個困境那尤其是我們在這個"},{"start":494.921,"end":507.448,"text":"全國在全力防治這個獨駕的時候啊施行率第二高的K他命在法律上還只是行政法那這是不是也在現行的獨駕的制度當中最致命的一個法律漏洞呢"},{"start":511.035,"end":540.158,"text":"毒品危害防治條例的第三條第三條還有這個規定上他毒品的分級的品項是由毒品審議委員會依照他的成癮性濫用性跟對社會的一個危害性所以他不單單是說看那個比例因為他的那個要看肇事的一個真正的一個狀況那我們那個依托彌子在那個嚴重的情況上毒審會這邊已經把他調到第一級那至於說安非他命的部分目前還是在第二級然後那個就是"},{"start":541.438,"end":559.365,"text":"這個凱達蜜是第三級那這個部分上是不是說適用第三級跟第四級的這個再犯是否要入罪的這個部分我們會審慎評估整個刑事政策跟司法醫療的一個配置那請問法務部是不是有曾經正式提請讀審會來檢討凱達蜜分級或再犯的處遇"},{"start":562.717,"end":573.889,"text":"其實那個每次在開會的時候都會整體性的一個討論說有沒有要調整啦那每三個月會調整那所以最近的一次的獨審會有針對K他名的分級或在犯的廚藥有進行這個檢討嗎最近的部分是應該我的理解因為我沒有在開會的那個會議之中"},{"start":582.658,"end":597.743,"text":"我的理解是沒有特別去針對安非他命跟K他命的部分來去做因為現在看起來安非他命跟K他命尤其是K他命因為他只有行政罰而已所以說可能如果是因為獨駕事件而造成的這個人民的損害的話他卻只需要罰還跟獎習這樣子的一個狀況"},{"start":603.405,"end":623.433,"text":"跟委員報告先講安非他命的部分安非他命它類似像是興奮劑然後伊托米子它是屬於大型動物的麻醉劑所以它兩個產生的效果造勢的狀況對社會的危害有點不太一樣安非他命主要吸的是用來提神之用的"},{"start":624.053,"end":646.176,"text":"那當然這個部分上委員提到的第三級KWM是不是要再調整那這個部分上我們也會把委員的意見再帶回我們獨省會這邊請委員們再來評估一下是不是應該這樣子的部分也要予以提高那這部分我們會再請我們的這個參與那個會議的同仁再跟委員們提出討論我想這個部分可能要請法務部來好好的這個"},{"start":647.313,"end":665.246,"text":"提交給這個獨審會來去審查因為既然它是屬於目前的話是屬於第二就是它的這個獨家的統計高達百分之二十一點八八表示它也有相當的一個危害性那當然我們也希望當然我們現在就是也有聽到的就是說法務部一直"},{"start":665.766,"end":687.794,"text":"不敢把K-Thermin升級為第二級的毒品的話因為其實很多基層跟社會各界希望這麼做那法務部一直遲遲不肯升級就是唯一的顧慮就是怕這個監獄人滿為患所以在法務部的考量之下是不是真的有這樣的一個狀況然後不用考量用戶人的安全嗎"},{"start":688.87,"end":711.73,"text":"當然我們一定是會考慮用路人的安全因為事實上那兩個是不同層次的問題第一犯罪該依法執行就該執行至於說我們怎麼樣去幫助我們的矯正署把人員或者是資源的部分再來爭取的話那是另外一個層次的問題那這個部分到時候也會如果真的有這樣的需要我想委員們也都會支持所以這東西倒不是我們考量的主因"},{"start":712.15,"end":740.852,"text":"好 那現在在短期內不曉得到底會不會升級啦所以說我們這邊也接到一些這個第一線員警的澄清喔他們強烈的建議要修正毒品危害防治條例增訂三級毒品使用者在一定的時間內再犯可以行責並引進觀察勒解那法務部的看法呢我們這個部分會配合整體的行政的政策司法醫療配置的部分去做通盤的一個考量啦"},{"start":741.465,"end":762.96,"text":"那您現在請教一下次長針對這個部分您覺得是不是除了當然就是說除了通盤的考量以這樣看起來的話是安非他命的狀況法律上的那個就是修正他有他的一個嚴謹性跟全面性我不敢說在這邊直接說可以或不可以但是這樣的一個思考的部分是我們會帶回去做一個研究的"},{"start":763.51,"end":774.182,"text":"好 那請次長要把這個部分要好好的研究清楚那另外 部長請問另外再請教一下我們的這個法福基金會的董事長"},{"start":781.024,"end":798.278,"text":"董事長這個媒體有披露新北市清水派出所的所長劉中興遭獨駕惡性衝撞殉職一審判處死刑結果案件上訴二審法輔就派了高達三名的律師組成了豪華的律師團為被告辯護"},{"start":800.28,"end":822.88,"text":"那法服在這種大手筆的支援惡性殺人被告時有沒有依據法服的第17條落實審查其資歷及非險無理由我想當然都這種強制辯護案子而且是國民法官案件"},{"start":823.496,"end":837.748,"text":"原本就是法湖一個很重大的案件派出的律師也一定要是非常優秀尤其是國民法官的案子在一省的國民法官案件它本來就是我們"},{"start":838.729,"end":865.211,"text":"高規格去重視的可是你現在幫忙辯護的是這個獨駕撞死我們的這個劉中興所長的這樣子的一個案件那這樣會不會就是法服感覺上就是盲目的就是利用國家的資源不計代價的然後去為這個被害人沒有 應該是為加害人來辯護呢事實上是這樣所以我覺得這個部分一定要好好的來檢討我知道"},{"start":866.432,"end":884.833,"text":"觀感看大家會覺得說為什麼到了二審因為你在一審的時候國民法官案子他本來就是需要我們法湖出律師那到了二審為什麼真正會跑出三名的律師原因是因為這個獨家判處在判處死刑的死刑案件了"},{"start":885.733,"end":911.522,"text":"對這些我們有幾位話 董事長其實我想現在大家關心的是就是說法服務每年拿司法院15億的預算結果呢針對這種殘忍殺警的獨家的兇手為了規避死刑你們要派出三名的律師去幫他辯護然後去讓被害者家屬被害者家屬要自己請律師而且還要遭受到這樣痛苦的一個打擊喔那所以以這樣子的"},{"start":912.242,"end":928.852,"text":"我知道剛剛董事長講的就是依法行事嘛但是事實上這樣子的一個這個案件是不是一定要這樣的方式來處理呢那如果在這樣子的一個狀況之下這比納稅人的血汗錢用在這個地方事實上我想大家都沒有辦法接受"},{"start":931.045,"end":953.094,"text":"請董事長回答因為尤其是這個華湖律師裡面我知道好像就是所謂豪華團應該是說這裡面有幾位知名的律師那他們是就是因為這樣才讓大家覺得真的不可思議啊就是我們被這個因為英勇殉職的這個所長因為被獨駕的這個"},{"start":955.586,"end":981.208,"text":"這個案件則殉職結果我們卻派出了三名非常就剛剛講有高知名度的優秀的律師為他辯護那這樣說實在被害人的家屬被害人他們的權益何在所以針對這個部分我想時間的關係我覺得要好好的來去檢討就是國家的資源是不是失衡未來針對這樣的案件我們應該是要怎麼樣來去處理"},{"start":982.409,"end":997.66,"text":"不能只因為當然就是因為強制辯護的關係所以就用這樣子的方式我想這不是一民眾能夠接受的我也說一下知名的律師也不是我們正在找的時候他就自己跳出來了他覺得正是他一定要為這一件案子他必須要來"},{"start":998.44,"end":1017.574,"text":"在法庭上表達這個辯護的意見應該是這樣的董事長您覺得一般的人能夠接受我們將心比心如果發生在自己身上的話你們有辦法接受嗎我想時間的關係所以在這邊我請董事長要好好地來去檢驗一下就國家的資源是不是失衡謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:05.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:09.575000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請司法院副秘書長跟法務部次長。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:09.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:11.150333+08:00","text":"請李副秘跟馮常次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李副秘書長釱任","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:11.150333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:12.725667+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:12.725667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:14.301000+08:00","text":"副秘書長、次長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:14.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:40.256000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下兩位，最近毒油事件引起社會的恐慌，問題油高達1,300公噸流向餐飲、小吃跟團膳業者，真正要承受風險的是我們這些無辜的市井小民、無辜的消費者。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:41.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:01:50.962000+08:00","text":"而且像這樣的食安案件，事實上外食的人可能也不曉得吃下去了多少，也很難事後證明有受到什麼樣的損害。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:01:52.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:09.535000+08:00","text":"我知道這案已經由臺中地檢署以他字案偵辦，但是現在看起來，受害人可能不計其數，尤其連我們立法院的小吃部都用到問題毒油，所以如果真的要求償起來，數目會相當可觀。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:10.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:21.243000+08:00","text":"請教法務部，檢察官針對這種重大的食安案件，在偵辦初期，什麼狀況之下會同步申請扣押、追徵及保全犯罪所得？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:21.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:43.085000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，首先，像這種重大的打擊民生犯罪事件，我們法務部都會要求各地檢署重視，所以在115年7月4號的時候中檢分他案調查，我們在啟動的案件之中，事實上應該不是單獨只有臺中地檢署，應該會整體性的……","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:44.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:02:46.528000+08:00","text":"是，目前看起來，臺北等各縣市都有這樣的狀況。","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:02:46.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:04.280000+08:00","text":"對，有可能是高檢署來做統籌，請各地檢署針對這樣的案件，用專組、指派專辦的檢察官特別去處理這樣的事情，只要發現到任何跟犯罪有關或者有需要立刻處理的部分，一定會從速、從嚴地處理。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:04.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:13.466000+08:00","text":"另外，我們還會跟衛福部……前幾天衛福部石部長也有提到，會跟我們法務部兩邊來做跨部會聯合的處理。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:14.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:27.543000+08:00","text":"現在我們要預防的是業者會不會脫產，因為整個訴訟的過程也許非常漫長，導致業者有可能會脫產，就算到時候判了刑，大家也根本拿不到賠償。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:30.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:03:40.353000+08:00","text":"這個部分就是檢察官在偵辦個案上，我們會提醒他們注意，但是基本上，個案的部分是地檢署會依照檢察官在辦案上固定的流程……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:03:40.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:10.430000+08:00","text":"因為毒油的事件就像剛剛您提到的，可能是全國各縣市都有這樣的問題，目前爆發出來有幾個縣市，有些是營養午餐，甚至連國軍都有吃到這樣的毒油，我覺得這個案件非常重大，所以在處理本案，如您剛剛提到的，必須要從速、從嚴的方式去執行……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:10.430000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:11.430000+08:00","text":"從速、從嚴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:11.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:19.015000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個部分可能要請法務部特別注重，因為這畢竟是全民都可能遇到的問題。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:20.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:41.246000+08:00","text":"另外想請教副秘書長，這次最大的問題是在外食者，民眾吃到的有可能是便當、鹹酥雞等等，團膳業者也不曉得使用哪個批號的沙拉油，請問在現行的民事訴訟下，民眾如果沒有發票、沒有批號、沒有店家進貨的紀錄，要如何證明自己吃到問題油？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:41.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:04:52.135000+08:00","text":"如果法院仍要求個別的消費者要完整舉證，是不是可能有外食者受害但卻沒辦法求償的情況？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"李副秘書長釱任","start":"2026-07-06T11:04:52.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:02.203000+08:00","text":"這可能是用團體訴訟的方式，或是食安基金來做處理，因為如果回歸到民事訴訟舉證責任的話，的確有委員所講相關舉證困難的問題。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:04.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:07.587000+08:00","text":"您所謂的團體訴訟，大概可以用什麼樣的方式？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"李副秘書長釱任","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:08.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:16.251000+08:00","text":"可能是由消費者文教基金會來進行登記，讓大家進行團體訴訟，協助做相關……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:18.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:19.773000+08:00","text":"現行的法令可以這樣做，是嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李副秘書長釱任","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:19.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:21.554000+08:00","text":"現行有團體訴訟這個方式。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:26.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:32.519000+08:00","text":"現在團體訴訟的部分有比照個資法嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:33.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:41.903000+08:00","text":"因為不易證明，所以有公益團體訴訟的機制，比如請合格的消保團體代表多數的受害者提起訴訟？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:44.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:05:46.316000+08:00","text":"目前是可行的就對了？是。好。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:05:47.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:19.292000+08:00","text":"另外再請教副秘書長，日前有個超商的女店員因為75元的咖啡漏結帳遭起訴，一審判刑三個月，最後高院改判無罪，並指出司法不應該成為私人企業的威嚇工具，人民看到的是小額的職場糾紛可以動用刑事程序，但問題油的外食族卻可能因為舉證困難而求助無門，請問法務部如何避免檢察權被企業拿來處理內部的管理問題？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:19.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:21.874000+08:00","text":"司法院又如何避免對於這類事件的刑事審判？","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:22.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:26.618000+08:00","text":"讓司法真正看見人民面對重大食安制度的困境。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:28.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:39.489000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上檢察官在偵辦案件上，他主要看的還是證據，以案件中當事人是否有竊盜的主觀犯意來做判斷。","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:39.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:06:55.539000+08:00","text":"我們檢察官當時可能認為……個案上我們當然不會去指導，但是檢察官如果認為是符合竊盜罪的話，他就會提起公訴；法院的部分，至於法院判有罪或者是量刑多少，這就是由法院去做判斷。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:06:55.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:08.186000+08:00","text":"我們希望的是這樣的案件要避免因為舉證不易，造成真正受害的民眾沒有辦法有求償的機會。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:10.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:19.856000+08:00","text":"針對有告訴人提起的告訴，我們判斷符合構成要件該當的部分，我們就會依法去提起公訴。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:19.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:20.717000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:21.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:22.618000+08:00","text":"副秘書長，您請回……請說。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"李副秘書長釱任","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:23.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:49.153000+08:00","text":"有關剛剛委員提到超商店員這個案子，可能涉及到他到底有沒有主觀犯意的問題，到底有沒有主觀犯意還是回歸到證據顯示的部分，因為這是屬於個案，我這邊不做深入的評論，但是從客觀的處罰要件或者是主觀的犯意的部分，可能是法院要去深入地根據事實或是根據證據來做了解，並作出比較適當的判決。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:49.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:49.493000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，副秘書長，您請回。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:07:49.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:07:50.054000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我還要再請教次長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:01.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:39.849000+08:00","text":"次長，接下來要請教您有關毒駕的案子，因為現在毒駕很猖狂，依托咪酯經過毒審會的審查已經列為一級毒品，但現在有一個狀況，根據刑事局114年11月到115年3月的毒駕統計，檢查出安非他命占70.06%，K他命高達21.88%，都超過依托咪酯所占的16.73%，請問一下，現在K他命在毒品危害防制條例的分級下是屬於第幾級？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:43.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:08:44.650000+08:00","text":"第三級。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:08:45.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:05.740000+08:00","text":"其實它的嚴重性在目前毒駕的比例上比依托咪酯還高，它卻只是第三級的行政罰鍰跟講習，這會不會讓真正在緝毒第一線的這些員警，在執行上也會陷入很巨大的無力感跟嚇阻的困境？","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:06.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:09:21.428000+08:00","text":"尤其全國在全力防制毒駕的時候，檢出施用率第二高的K他命在法律上只是行政罰，這會不會在現行的防制毒駕制度當中形成最致命的法律漏洞呢？","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:09:25.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:09.564000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，毒品危害防制條例第三條的規定上，毒品分級的品項是由毒品審議委員會依照它的成癮性、濫用性跟對社會的危害性進行評估，所以它不單單是看比例，而要看肇事真正的狀況，依據依托咪酯嚴重的情況，毒審會已經把它調到第一級；至於安非他命的部分，目前還是在第二級，K他命是第三級，而關於施用第三級及第四級毒品的再犯是否要入罪的這個部分，我們會審慎評估整個刑事政策及司法、醫療的配置。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:09.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:13.345000+08:00","text":"請問法務部是不是有曾經正式提請毒審會來檢討K他命分級或再犯的處遇？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:16.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:23.665000+08:00","text":"其實每次開會都會整體性的討論有沒有要調整，每3個月會調整及評估一次。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:25.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:26.808000+08:00","text":"最近一次的毒審會有針對K他命的分級或再犯處遇進行檢討嗎？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:26.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:40.700000+08:00","text":"最近的部分，就我的理解……因為我沒有在那個會議之中，我的理解是沒有特別針對安非他命及K他命的部分來做級別上的調整。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:41.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:10:51.683000+08:00","text":"現在看起來安非他命跟K他命，尤其是K他命，因為它只有行政罰而已，所以如果是因為毒駕事件而造成人民損害的話，也只是罰鍰及講習這樣的處罰。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:10:57.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:11:17.413000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，先講安非他命的部分，安非他命類似像是興奮劑，而依托咪酯是屬於大型動物的麻醉劑，所以這兩個所產生的效果、肇事的狀況，對社會的危害有點不太一樣，吸食安非他命主要是用來提神的。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:11:18.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:11:37.654000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分上，委員提到第三級的K他命是不是要再調整，我們也會把委員的意見再帶回我們毒審會，請委員們再來評估一下就這個部分是否要予以提高，針對這部分，我們會請參與毒審會議的同仁再提出來跟委員們討論。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:11:37.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:11:54.002000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分可能要請法務部提交給毒審會好好來審查，因為既然它目前是屬於第二……就是它的毒駕的檢出統計高達21.88%，表示它也有相當的危害性。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:11:56.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:12:14.251000+08:00","text":"我們現在也有聽到法務部一直不敢把K他命升級為第二級毒品，其實很多基層及社會各界都希望這麼做，法務部一直遲遲不肯升級的唯一顧慮就是怕監獄人滿為患。","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:12:14.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:12:19.813000+08:00","text":"所以在法務部這樣的考量之下，是不是真的有這樣的狀況？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:12:20.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:12:21.794000+08:00","text":"不用考量用路人的安全嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:12:22.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:12:46.150000+08:00","text":"當然我們一定是會考慮用路人的安全，因為事實上，這兩個是不同層次的問題，第一，犯罪該依法執行就該執行，至於我們怎麼樣幫助矯正署爭取人員或資源，那是另外一個層次的問題，如果到時候這個部分真的有需要，我想委員們也都會支持，所以這個並不是我們考量的主因。好。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:12:46.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:12:50.553000+08:00","text":"現在在短期內不曉得到底會不會升級？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:12:51.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:05.505000+08:00","text":"我們這邊也接到一些第一線員警的陳情，他們強烈建議要修正毒品危害防制條例，增訂三級毒品施用者在一定時間內再犯，科以刑責並引進觀察勒戒。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:06.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:07.546000+08:00","text":"請教法務部的看法呢？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:08.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:14.632000+08:00","text":"針對這個部分，我們會配合整體的刑事政策及司法、醫療配置的部分做通盤考量。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:17.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:25.372000+08:00","text":"請教一下次長，針對這個部分，除了通盤考量，以現在看起來，其實安非他命的狀況也……","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:25.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:37.510000+08:00","text":"法律的修正有其嚴謹性跟全面性，我不敢在這邊直接說可以或不可以，但是對於這樣的思考，我們會帶回去做研究。好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:38.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:43.436000+08:00","text":"請次長要好好地研究清楚這個部分，次長請回。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:43.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:48.182000+08:00","text":"另外，再請教一下法扶基金會董事長。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:48.182000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:13:55.024000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:13:55.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:14:26.311000+08:00","text":"董事長，媒體有披露新北市清水派出所所長劉宗鑫遭毒駕惡性衝撞殉職一案，被告於一審被判處死刑，結果案件上訴二審，法扶就派了高達3名律師組成了豪華律師團為被告辯護，法扶在這種大手筆的支援惡性殺人被告時，有沒有依據法扶法相關規定，落實審查其資力及非顯無理由？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:14:27.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:14:54.551000+08:00","text":"我想這種強制辯護的案子，而且又是國民法官案件，原本會就被法扶視為是重大案件，派出的律師也一定要是非常優秀的，尤其是國民法官的案件，在一審的國民法官案件本來就是我們高規格去重視的，它一審……","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:14:55.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:15:14.327000+08:00","text":"可是你們現在幫忙辯護的是毒駕撞死劉宗鑫所長的案件，這樣會不會感覺法扶就是盲目的利用國家資源，盲目的、不計代價的為加害人來辯護呢？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:15:14.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:15:15.348000+08:00","text":"事實上是這樣的……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:15:15.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:15:18.891000+08:00","text":"所以我覺得這個部分一定要好好地來檢討。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:15:18.891000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:15:19.891000+08:00","text":"可不可以讓我講一下？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:15:18.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:15:41.054000+08:00","text":"我知道在觀感上，大家會覺得為什麼到了二審……因為在一審的時候，對於國民法官的案件，我們法扶本來就需要派出律師，為什麼到了二審會跑出3名律師，原因是因為這案毒駕判處死刑，這對我們有幾位法扶律師……","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:15:41.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:08.443000+08:00","text":"董事長，我想現在大家關心的是，法扶每年拿司法院15億預算，結果針對這種殘忍殺警的毒駕兇手為了規避死刑，你們就派出3名律師去幫他辯護，被害者家屬卻要自己請律師，而且還要遭受到這樣痛苦的打擊，我知道剛剛董事長講的就是依法行事嘛！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:08.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:14.467000+08:00","text":"但是事實上，這樣的案件是不是一定要用這樣的方式來處理呢？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:15.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:22.832000+08:00","text":"如果在這樣的狀況之下，這筆納稅人的血汗錢用在這個地方，事實上，我想是大家都沒有辦法接受的。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:25.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:25.565000+08:00","text":"請董事長回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:27.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:38.531000+08:00","text":"我知道，尤其是在法扶律師裡，所謂豪華團應該是這裡面有幾位知名律師，他們是……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:38.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:16:42.132000+08:00","text":"就是因為這樣才讓大家覺得真的不可思議啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:16:44.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:04.679000+08:00","text":"這位英勇殉職的所長因為毒駕案件而殉職，結果你們卻派出了3名就像剛剛你講的具有高知名度的、優秀的律師來為他辯護，說實在被害人及被害人家屬的權益何在？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:04.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:05.679000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:05.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:22.213000+08:00","text":"所以針對這個部分，我覺得要好好地來檢討國家的資源是不是失衡，以及未來針對這樣的案件應該要怎麼樣來處理，不能只是因為強制辯護的關係，所以就用這樣的方式，我想這不是民眾能夠接受的。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:22.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:36.123000+08:00","text":"我也說一下，我們正在找法扶律師的時候，這幾位知名律師是自己跳出來的，他們覺得一定要為這個案件在法庭上表達辯護的意見，應該是這樣子，不是我們……","quality":0.672},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:36.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:39.565000+08:00","text":"董事長，您覺得一般的人能夠接受嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:39.565000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:40.565000+08:00","text":"對，就是會有這種情形。","quality":0},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:39.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:45.390000+08:00","text":"我們將心比心，如果發生在自己身上的話，你有辦法接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許委員宇甄","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:45.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:51.574000+08:00","text":"好，我想時間的關係，所以我在這邊請董事長要好好地來檢討一下國家資源是不是失衡。謝謝。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"莊董事長秋桃","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:52.074000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:53.074000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:53.374000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:17:55.088286+08:00","text":"好，謝謝許委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:17:55.388286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:18:08.245429+08:00","text":"剛剛已經和林沛祥委員有溝通過了，我們現在先休息5分鐘，讓大家可以先去上個洗手間，待會再繼續進行會議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:18:08.545429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:18:09.688286+08:00","text":"休息（11時18分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:18:09.988286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:18:11.702571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時23分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:18:12.002571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:18:14.288286+08:00","text":"我們現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:18:14.588286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:18:18.016857+08:00","text":"接下來有請林沛祥委員發言。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":706,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時1分）謝謝主席，請司法院副秘書長跟法務部次長。"],["主席：請李副秘跟馮常次。"],["李副秘書長釱任：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：副秘書長、次長好。我想請教一下兩位，最近毒油事件引起社會的恐慌，問題油高達1,300公噸流向餐飲、小吃跟團膳業者，真正要承受風險的是我們這些無辜的市井小民、無辜的消費者。而且像這樣的食安案件，事實上外食的人可能也不曉得吃下去了多少，也很難事後證明有受到什麼樣的損害。","我知道這案已經由臺中地檢署以他字案偵辦，但是現在看起來，受害人可能不計其數，尤其連我們立法院的小吃部都用到問題毒油，所以如果真的要求償起來，數目會相當可觀。請教法務部，檢察官針對這種重大的食安案件，在偵辦初期，什麼狀況之下會同步申請扣押、追徵及保全犯罪所得？"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，首先，像這種重大的打擊民生犯罪事件，我們法務部都會要求各地檢署重視，所以在115年7月4號的時候中檢分他案調查，我們在啟動的案件之中，事實上應該不是單獨只有臺中地檢署，應該會整體性的……"],["許委員宇甄：是，目前看起來，臺北等各縣市都有這樣的狀況。"],["馮次長成：對，有可能是高檢署來做統籌，請各地檢署針對這樣的案件，用專組、指派專辦的檢察官特別去處理這樣的事情，只要發現到任何跟犯罪有關或者有需要立刻處理的部分，一定會從速、從嚴地處理。另外，我們還會跟衛福部……前幾天衛福部石部長也有提到，會跟我們法務部兩邊來做跨部會聯合的處理。"],["許委員宇甄：現在我們要預防的是業者會不會脫產，因為整個訴訟的過程也許非常漫長，導致業者有可能會脫產，就算到時候判了刑，大家也根本拿不到賠償。"],["馮次長成：這個部分就是檢察官在偵辦個案上，我們會提醒他們注意，但是基本上，個案的部分是地檢署會依照檢察官在辦案上固定的流程……"],["許委員宇甄：因為毒油的事件就像剛剛您提到的，可能是全國各縣市都有這樣的問題，目前爆發出來有幾個縣市，有些是營養午餐，甚至連國軍都有吃到這樣的毒油，我覺得這個案件非常重大，所以在處理本案，如您剛剛提到的，必須要從速、從嚴的方式去執行……"],["馮次長成：從速、從嚴。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得這個部分可能要請法務部特別注重，因為這畢竟是全民都可能遇到的問題。","另外想請教副秘書長，這次最大的問題是在外食者，民眾吃到的有可能是便當、鹹酥雞等等，團膳業者也不曉得使用哪個批號的沙拉油，請問在現行的民事訴訟下，民眾如果沒有發票、沒有批號、沒有店家進貨的紀錄，要如何證明自己吃到問題油？如果法院仍要求個別的消費者要完整舉證，是不是可能有外食者受害但卻沒辦法求償的情況？"],["李副秘書長釱任：這可能是用團體訴訟的方式，或是食安基金來做處理，因為如果回歸到民事訴訟舉證責任的話，的確有委員所講相關舉證困難的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：您所謂的團體訴訟，大概可以用什麼樣的方式？"],["李副秘書長釱任：可能是由消費者文教基金會來進行登記，讓大家進行團體訴訟，協助做相關……"],["許委員宇甄：現行的法令可以這樣做，是嗎？"],["李副秘書長釱任：現行有團體訴訟這個方式。"],["許委員宇甄：現在團體訴訟的部分有比照個資法嗎？因為不易證明，所以有公益團體訴訟的機制，比如請合格的消保團體代表多數的受害者提起訴訟？目前是可行的就對了？"],["李副秘書長釱任：是。"],["許委員宇甄：好。另外再請教副秘書長，日前有個超商的女店員因為75元的咖啡漏結帳遭起訴，一審判刑三個月，最後高院改判無罪，並指出司法不應該成為私人企業的威嚇工具，人民看到的是小額的職場糾紛可以動用刑事程序，但問題油的外食族卻可能因為舉證困難而求助無門，請問法務部如何避免檢察權被企業拿來處理內部的管理問題？司法院又如何避免對於這類事件的刑事審判？讓司法真正看見人民面對重大食安制度的困境。"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，事實上檢察官在偵辦案件上，他主要看的還是證據，以案件中當事人是否有竊盜的主觀犯意來做判斷。我們檢察官當時可能認為……個案上我們當然不會去指導，但是檢察官如果認為是符合竊盜罪的話，他就會提起公訴；法院的部分，至於法院判有罪或者是量刑多少，這就是由法院去做判斷。"],["許委員宇甄：我們希望的是這樣的案件要避免因為舉證不易，造成真正受害的民眾沒有辦法有求償的機會。"],["馮次長成：針對有告訴人提起的告訴，我們判斷符合構成要件該當的部分，我們就會依法去提起公訴。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。副秘書長，您請回……請說。"],["李副秘書長釱任：有關剛剛委員提到超商店員這個案子，可能涉及到他到底有沒有主觀犯意的問題，到底有沒有主觀犯意還是回歸到證據顯示的部分，因為這是屬於個案，我這邊不做深入的評論，但是從客觀的處罰要件或者是主觀的犯意的部分，可能是法院要去深入地根據事實或是根據證據來做了解，並作出比較適當的判決。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝，副秘書長，您請回。","不好意思，我還要再請教次長。次長，接下來要請教您有關毒駕的案子，因為現在毒駕很猖狂，依托咪酯經過毒審會的審查已經列為一級毒品，但現在有一個狀況，根據刑事局114年11月到115年3月的毒駕統計，檢查出安非他命占70.06%，K他命高達21.88%，都超過依托咪酯所占的16.73%，請問一下，現在K他命在毒品危害防制條例的分級下是屬於第幾級？"],["馮次長成：第三級。"],["許委員宇甄：其實它的嚴重性在目前毒駕的比例上比依托咪酯還高，它卻只是第三級的行政罰鍰跟講習，這會不會讓真正在緝毒第一線的這些員警，在執行上也會陷入很巨大的無力感跟嚇阻的困境？尤其全國在全力防制毒駕的時候，檢出施用率第二高的K他命在法律上只是行政罰，這會不會在現行的防制毒駕制度當中形成最致命的法律漏洞呢？"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，毒品危害防制條例第三條的規定上，毒品分級的品項是由毒品審議委員會依照它的成癮性、濫用性跟對社會的危害性進行評估，所以它不單單是看比例，而要看肇事真正的狀況，依據依托咪酯嚴重的情況，毒審會已經把它調到第一級；至於安非他命的部分，目前還是在第二級，K他命是第三級，而關於施用第三級及第四級毒品的再犯是否要入罪的這個部分，我們會審慎評估整個刑事政策及司法、醫療的配置。"],["許委員宇甄：請問法務部是不是有曾經正式提請毒審會來檢討K他命分級或再犯的處遇？"],["馮次長成：其實每次開會都會整體性的討論有沒有要調整，每3個月會調整及評估一次。"],["許委員宇甄：最近一次的毒審會有針對K他命的分級或再犯處遇進行檢討嗎？"],["馮次長成：最近的部分，就我的理解……因為我沒有在那個會議之中，我的理解是沒有特別針對安非他命及K他命的部分來做級別上的調整。"],["許委員宇甄：現在看起來安非他命跟K他命，尤其是K他命，因為它只有行政罰而已，所以如果是因為毒駕事件而造成人民損害的話，也只是罰鍰及講習這樣的處罰。"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，先講安非他命的部分，安非他命類似像是興奮劑，而依托咪酯是屬於大型動物的麻醉劑，所以這兩個所產生的效果、肇事的狀況，對社會的危害有點不太一樣，吸食安非他命主要是用來提神的。針對這個部分上，委員提到第三級的K他命是不是要再調整，我們也會把委員的意見再帶回我們毒審會，請委員們再來評估一下就這個部分是否要予以提高，針對這部分，我們會請參與毒審會議的同仁再提出來跟委員們討論。"],["許委員宇甄：我想這個部分可能要請法務部提交給毒審會好好來審查，因為既然它目前是屬於第二……就是它的毒駕的檢出統計高達21.88%，表示它也有相當的危害性。我們現在也有聽到法務部一直不敢把K他命升級為第二級毒品，其實很多基層及社會各界都希望這麼做，法務部一直遲遲不肯升級的唯一顧慮就是怕監獄人滿為患。所以在法務部這樣的考量之下，是不是真的有這樣的狀況？不用考量用路人的安全嗎？"],["馮次長成：當然我們一定是會考慮用路人的安全，因為事實上，這兩個是不同層次的問題，第一，犯罪該依法執行就該執行，至於我們怎麼樣幫助矯正署爭取人員或資源，那是另外一個層次的問題，如果到時候這個部分真的有需要，我想委員們也都會支持，所以這個並不是我們考量的主因。"],["許委員宇甄：好。現在在短期內不曉得到底會不會升級？我們這邊也接到一些第一線員警的陳情，他們強烈建議要修正毒品危害防制條例，增訂三級毒品施用者在一定時間內再犯，科以刑責並引進觀察勒戒。請教法務部的看法呢？"],["馮次長成：針對這個部分，我們會配合整體的刑事政策及司法、醫療配置的部分做通盤考量。"],["許委員宇甄：請教一下次長，針對這個部分，除了通盤考量，以現在看起來，其實安非他命的狀況也……"],["馮次長成：法律的修正有其嚴謹性跟全面性，我不敢在這邊直接說可以或不可以，但是對於這樣的思考，我們會帶回去做研究。"],["許委員宇甄：好。請次長要好好地研究清楚這個部分，次長請回。","另外，再請教一下法扶基金會董事長。"],["莊董事長秋桃：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：董事長，媒體有披露新北市清水派出所所長劉宗鑫遭毒駕惡性衝撞殉職一案，被告於一審被判處死刑，結果案件上訴二審，法扶就派了高達3名律師組成了豪華律師團為被告辯護，法扶在這種大手筆的支援惡性殺人被告時，有沒有依據法扶法相關規定，落實審查其資力及非顯無理由？"],["莊董事長秋桃：我想這種強制辯護的案子，而且又是國民法官案件，原本會就被法扶視為是重大案件，派出的律師也一定要是非常優秀的，尤其是國民法官的案件，在一審的國民法官案件本來就是我們高規格去重視的，它一審……"],["許委員宇甄：可是你們現在幫忙辯護的是毒駕撞死劉宗鑫所長的案件，這樣會不會感覺法扶就是盲目的利用國家資源，盲目的、不計代價的為加害人來辯護呢？"],["莊董事長秋桃：事實上是這樣的……"],["許委員宇甄：所以我覺得這個部分一定要好好地來檢討。"],["莊董事長秋桃：可不可以讓我講一下？我知道在觀感上，大家會覺得為什麼到了二審……因為在一審的時候，對於國民法官的案件，我們法扶本來就需要派出律師，為什麼到了二審會跑出3名律師，原因是因為這案毒駕判處死刑，這對我們有幾位法扶律師……"],["許委員宇甄：董事長，我想現在大家關心的是，法扶每年拿司法院15億預算，結果針對這種殘忍殺警的毒駕兇手為了規避死刑，你們就派出3名律師去幫他辯護，被害者家屬卻要自己請律師，而且還要遭受到這樣痛苦的打擊，我知道剛剛董事長講的就是依法行事嘛！但是事實上，這樣的案件是不是一定要用這樣的方式來處理呢？如果在這樣的狀況之下，這筆納稅人的血汗錢用在這個地方，事實上，我想是大家都沒有辦法接受的。請董事長回答。"],["莊董事長秋桃：我知道，尤其是在法扶律師裡，所謂豪華團應該是這裡面有幾位知名律師，他們是……"],["許委員宇甄：就是因為這樣才讓大家覺得真的不可思議啊！這位英勇殉職的所長因為毒駕案件而殉職，結果你們卻派出了3名就像剛剛你講的具有高知名度的、優秀的律師來為他辯護，說實在被害人及被害人家屬的權益何在？"],["莊董事長秋桃：我知道。"],["許委員宇甄：所以針對這個部分，我覺得要好好地來檢討國家的資源是不是失衡，以及未來針對這樣的案件應該要怎麼樣來處理，不能只是因為強制辯護的關係，所以就用這樣的方式，我想這不是民眾能夠接受的。"],["莊董事長秋桃：我也說一下，我們正在找法扶律師的時候，這幾位知名律師是自己跳出來的，他們覺得一定要為這個案件在法庭上表達辯護的意見，應該是這樣子，不是我們……"],["許委員宇甄：董事長，您覺得一般的人能夠接受嗎？"],["莊董事長秋桃：對，就是會有這種情形。"],["許委員宇甄：我們將心比心，如果發生在自己身上的話，你有辦法接受嗎？好，我想時間的關係，所以我在這邊請董事長要好好地來檢討一下國家資源是不是失衡。謝謝。"],["莊董事長秋桃：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝許委員。","我們先作會議程序的宣告：剛剛已經和林沛祥委員有溝通過了，我們現在先休息5分鐘，讓大家可以先去上個洗手間，待會再繼續進行會議。","休息（11時18分）","繼續開會（11時23分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。","接下來有請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-23","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","沈發惠","賴士葆","陳冠廷","林倩綺","許宇甄","林沛祥","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","范雲","蔡其昌","傅崐萁"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2026-07-06"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、財團法人法律扶助基金會、財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會針對\n「犯罪被害人訴訟參與制度之現況、檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}