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您請署長部長可以先休息謝謝好 委員好好 署長好今天這個跟沙發的修法我想問你你覺得有必要嗎"},{"start":12.804,"end":39.1,"text":"可以進進啊可以進進沒錯因為在四年前這個修法的利益非常良善可是在執行的過程當中當初啊其實我看了一下當初修法的這個過程很多人說這個與性和性別有關的這個要件不能加是因為說刑事局覺得說跟騷案一年可能會上達八千件覺得說這個量能可能處理不來但是這四年下來實際的數字是多少"},{"start":41.721,"end":67.357,"text":"2025年去年全年只有2900件跟你們預估的不到四成那所以看起來其實是有能力能夠應付的那我也看一下說這個其實很多人跟我反映尤其是我自己也接過很多類似的案件啦就是甚至是我本人自己也有遇到這種騷擾型的事情就是可能以我接到陳情人可能他就是一直給你打無聲電話"},{"start":68.698,"end":95.08,"text":"那或者說他持續的每天私訊你但是他換了一個帳號再繼續私訊你然後內容都是這種雖然是騷擾但是他就是避開那些性別有關的字眼那這種時候能用跟殺法處理嗎?不行所以這就是現在很多陳情人覺得最困擾的地方這個可能委員自己也看啦你這個當事人認為他是對你性別的這樣的概念我們大概就會認定"},{"start":97.141,"end":117.678,"text":"但事實上很多就是沒有辦法依照現行的跟騷法來處理所以我們才希望更精進把這些更明確的要件寫進去這個其實對基層員警來說他們只要要件更明確他們也更能夠方便執行因為其實基層員警他們說他們需要的是很明確的執法標準"},{"start":118.459,"end":134.073,"text":"所以我覺得我們接下來如果跟桑法能夠把它說的例如說用排除的其實很多民團都給意見例如說他們是在有一些什麼像是說他們有自己的可能債務的糾紛或者是說他們有之間有一些他們之間職務上的關係"},{"start":136.855,"end":148.621,"text":"或者是他們是同事那必須要進行一些他是必須要跟他有一些接觸的所以不得不來進行這樣的接觸那這個其實你可以進行這些豁免條款啊"},{"start":149.895,"end":173.467,"text":"委員這個部分應該也會掛一路其實這個跟騷的核心價值就是對於姓北暴力這個區塊的補這些我剛才講就是跟家暴性侵跟性騷擾的這些的不足就是因為不足所以必須要補足啊這個跟騷的核心價值就是姓與姓北那其他的這些還有其他法律規矩做適用那被害人就是被跟騷人"},{"start":174.508,"end":188.962,"text":"他來他的主觀意識是很重要的他我們一定會問他說這個是跟你被跟或者是被無聲的被跟性與性別有沒有關係個人的主觀意識是非常重要的我們會根據根據主觀意識來做一個調查"},{"start":190.476,"end":217.935,"text":"這個主觀意識最重要嘛任何案件都是被案人來的主觀意識是那主觀意識在根據客觀的這些證據來調查那調查除了這個主觀的意識之外還有他的這個的是不是有沒有反覆比如像我一時候講的其實目前的要件基本要件都有啦就是說有沒有反覆持續有沒有違反意願有沒有新生未婦沒錯會影響他的日常生活現在這三點"},{"start":219.276,"end":240.228,"text":"夠了 但是還是有很多沒有辦法被含納進去的對跟那個人你第一時間你心裡的那個意願我們都會問嘛 這個就會確定會不會確定跟你姓北的關係就是會確定了你就是 那其他案件是一樣我們這個案件都是的案件的過程都一定是第一個你的這個來的這個狀況的意願是怎樣才來做其他證據的調查嘛所以這也不會漏接"},{"start":249.074,"end":267.227,"text":"什麼叫做不會漏接我現在就是有接到類似這樣子的陳情案尤其是很多是年輕女生她們就是有來跟我說那像是她們的情境是不是用跟騷法因為在第一線可能一線員警會覺得說就沒有跟性和性別有關呢"},{"start":268.123,"end":290.316,"text":"那個女性可能沒有描述清楚你怎麼可以怪罪被害人啊 署長署長 什麼代表女性沒有描述清楚他就是在當下已經非常恐懼了所以他把他遇到的情境講出來你現在說他自己沒有描述清楚所以不適用跟搜法我們現在搜法不就是想要保障這群人嗎要保障 當然要保障女性啦"},{"start":291.116,"end":307.403,"text":"報告委員那個我想我們都知道說跟騷法裡面的這個被害人大概九成以上都女性是的那所以我們跟騷法怎麼樣讓他更完善是我們今天討論的重點是的但是有兩點我一定要澄清第一個我們警察到現在沒有人在吃案"},{"start":308.703,"end":334.597,"text":"但是他所引用的法條是不是適用跟騷法或者是其他的設置法或是家暴法或是等等這些我想我們內部還會有比較多回訊的時候或在情務上面會再多加清楚這一點我們要確定但是我也要強調那個不是說被害人說是用跟騷法然後加害人說不是跟騷法那這個部分就涉及到警方他們在確認的時候用哪一個部分"},{"start":335.517,"end":359.749,"text":"我們就是希望基層的員警能夠有更明確的執法的依據這個部分我們會更明確的告訴他但是您所說的要用排除法或是用正面表列這個部分恐怕會掛一漏萬但是我有一點可以確定我們基層警員非常辛苦而且一定不會持案只不過是用什麼樣的法律來處理報案者他自己本身是受到高難"},{"start":361.11,"end":373.877,"text":"我們今天在這邊討論跟騷髮的修法就是希望可以支持基層的員警讓他們有更明確的執法依據所以我們在今天不是說什麼警察治安的問題我是希望我們的法律要讓基層員警能夠執行啊"},{"start":376.5,"end":393.813,"text":"對不對所以我們如果有這些更明確的要件列出來員警一看就知道你這個是或不是他不需要很多時候必須要進行自己的判斷然後承擔這麼大的壓力我們今天說法的目的是這樣希望給他們更有用更實在的工具"},{"start":394.614,"end":418.764,"text":"那我還有兩點 因為時間的關係一個是這個處遇的計畫 必須要講說現在我們的這個處遇計畫是一個很大的漏洞因為很多時候法官判下來呢他們要核發處遇必須要先鑑定行為人有沒有處遇的必要結果現在這個鑑定費署長你知道誰要出嗎誰要先鑑定嗎 沒錯被害人他必須要自己先出可能這個幾萬塊的鑑定費"},{"start":421.66,"end":445.088,"text":"這樣合理嗎這部分可以修法啦這個部分要拜託署長這部分我們希望這一次如果這個精進的方案進去也一併的納入怎麼會讓被害人自己要幫那個加害人出這個鑑定費啊你講得很有道理這個同意要修法是的這個拜託署長最後一點這個頒發緊急保護令的時間因為其實家暴裡面他們緊急保護令兩個小時就可以下來了"},{"start":446.189,"end":472.54,"text":"但是在這個根梢法裡面平均還是要34到36天這個是不是司法院今天有司法院來對所以我這邊是希望好請司法院這邊我想要建議喔明確的建議這個34到36天的這個時間很容易變成被害人再一次遭遇騷擾甚至是更嚴重的威脅的空窗期"},{"start":473.772,"end":484.073,"text":"所以我這邊是希望說我們是不是也能夠再加快這個頒發保護令的時間那甚至是可以跟比照加報他們緊急保護令兩個小時就下來了"},{"start":486.214,"end":512.682,"text":"謝謝委員吹詢這部分先跟委員報告這個部分本院已經有通函提醒各個法院在處理跟騷保護令的事件必須要訴審理那第二點就是因為跟騷法目前並沒有緊急保護令的制度但是因為跟騷行為他本身已經入罪剛剛有跟委員報告過了就是如果被害人個人有急迫危險的狀況其實可以趕快提出跟騷罪的告訴那檢警機關這邊一定會針對急迫的行為來緊速的處理"},{"start":515.863,"end":533.325,"text":"對好謝謝那我希望是我們接下來如果要討論跟燒法的修法一併把這個緊急保護令放進去那未來也拜託司法院這邊可以再通令下去說這個核發的速度一定要快好嗎這個部分如果後續法制建立了之後法院會配合辦好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:03.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:03.509000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:04.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:07.913000+08:00","text":"我們請署長，部長可以先休息。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:08.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:09.154000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:09.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:10.095000+08:00","text":"署長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:10.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:13.858000+08:00","text":"今天跟騷法修法，我想問你，你覺得有必要嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:15.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:16.165000+08:00","text":"可以精進啦！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:17.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:42.080000+08:00","text":"可以精進，沒錯，4年前我們修這個法的立意非常良善，可是我看了一下當初修法的過程，很多人說「與性或性別有關」這個要件不能刪是因為刑事局覺得跟騷案一年可能會上達8,000件，這樣的量能可能會處理不來，但4年下來，實際的數字是多少？","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:44.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:13:53.847000+08:00","text":"2025年、去年全年只有2,900件，是你們預估的不到四成，看起來，其實是有能力應付的。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:13:54.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:14:27.431000+08:00","text":"也有很多人跟我反映，尤其我自己也接過很多類似陳情，甚至我本人也有遇到這種騷擾型的事情，以我接到的陳情案件，可能就是一直打無聲電話或者持續每天私訊被害人，被制止後，又換另一個帳號再繼續私訊，然後內容都是這種……雖然是騷擾，但是他也會避開那些性別有關的字眼，這時候能用跟騷法處理嗎？不行！","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:14:28.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:14:31.474000+08:00","text":"這就是現在很多陳情人覺得最困擾的地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:14:31.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:14:38.060000+08:00","text":"委員，這個可能是委員自己的看法，如果當事人認為是有性或性別這樣的概念，我們大概就會認定是……","quality":0.732},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:14:40.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:15:31.580000+08:00","text":"但事實上有很多就是沒辦法依據現行的跟騷法來處理，所以我們才希望更精進，把更明確的要件寫進去，這對基層員警來說，只要要件更明確，他們也更能夠方便執行，因為基層員警也需要明確的執法標準，所以我覺得接下來如果我們可以把跟騷法修得……例如用排除方式，其實很多民團都有給意見，例如像有一些可能是債務糾紛，或者彼此之間有一些職務上的關係，或者是同事關係，所以不得不進行一些接觸，這個其實就可以進行豁免條款。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:15:32.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:15:45.462000+08:00","text":"委員，這個部分應該也會掛一漏萬，其實跟騷的核心價值，就是對於性別暴力這個區塊的補足，就像我剛才講的，家暴、性侵、性騷擾這些的不足……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:15:46.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:15:48.243000+08:00","text":"就是因為不足，所以必須要補足啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:15:48.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:07.077000+08:00","text":"所以跟騷的核心價值，就是性或性別，其他的部分，則有其他法律可以適用，所以被害人，就是被跟騷人，他的主觀意識是很重要的，他來我們一定會問他，被跟或者被無聲騷擾的這些，跟性或性別有沒有關係？","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:07.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:17.359000+08:00","text":"個人的主觀意識非常重要，我們會根據主觀意識來做調查，任何案件都是依被害人的主觀意識。是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:18.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:30.588000+08:00","text":"主觀意識後，再根據客觀的這些證據來調查，除了主觀意識之外，還有這個行為有沒有反覆，比如好像委員所講的……","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:30.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:37.493000+08:00","text":"目前其實是基本要件都有，就是說有沒有反覆持續、有沒有違反意願、有沒有心生……畏怖。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:38.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:47.039000+08:00","text":"畏怖，沒錯，會影響到他的日常生活，現在這三點夠了，但還是有很多沒有辦法被含納進去的……對啊！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:47.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:50.701000+08:00","text":"就是被跟的人，第一時間心裡的意願，這個我們一定會問嘛！是啊！","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:50.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:16:51.701000+08:00","text":"但是就是這種……","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:16:51.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:03.208000+08:00","text":"這個就會確定跟性別有沒有關係，就會確定了，其他案件也一樣，任何案件的過程一定都是這樣，就是第一個，你來的狀況、意願怎麼樣，再來做其他證據的調查，所以也不會漏接，所有案件都會受理。","quality":0.709},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:12.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:13.114000+08:00","text":"什麼叫做不會漏接？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:13.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:15.556000+08:00","text":"我們現在就是有接到……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:15.556000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:16.556000+08:00","text":"所有案件都會處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:15.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:25.203000+08:00","text":"類似這樣的陳情案，尤其很多是年輕女生，他們就是來問我，他們那樣的情境適不適用跟騷法？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:25.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:30.207000+08:00","text":"因為第一線的員警可能會覺得就沒有跟性或性別有關啊！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:31.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:32.724000+08:00","text":"那個女性可能沒有描述清楚、可能沒有……欸！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:33.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:37.227000+08:00","text":"你怎麼可以怪罪被害人啊！署長！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:37.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:38.227000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:38.227000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:39.227000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:37.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:39.948000+08:00","text":"署長，什麼叫做女性沒有描述清楚！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:39.948000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:40.948000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:40.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:41.109000+08:00","text":"就是說……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:41.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:47.092000+08:00","text":"他當下已經非常恐懼了，然後把他遇到的情境講出來，結果你現在說他自己沒有描述清楚……","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:47.092000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:48.092000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:47.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:48.413000+08:00","text":"所以不適用跟騷法……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:48.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:49.413000+08:00","text":"我的意思是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:48.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:51.835000+08:00","text":"我們現在修法不就是想要保障這群人嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:51.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:17:53.296000+08:00","text":"要保障，當然要保障女性啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-06T10:17:54.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:18:37.577000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們都知道跟騷法裡面的被害人大概九成以上都是女性，所以如何讓跟騷法更完善，是我們今天討論的重點，但是有兩點我一定要澄清：第一個，我們警察到現在沒有人在吃案，但是他所引用的法條是不是適用跟騷法或者是其他的社秩法或家暴法等等，我想我們內部在回訓或是在勤務上會再多加清楚，這一點我們要確定，但是我也要強調，被害人說適用跟騷法，然後加害人說不適用，這個部分就涉及到警方在確認的時候是用哪一個部分，這個部分我們會再把過去一、兩千件的樣態跟他們講清楚……是啊！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:18:38.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:18:44.620000+08:00","text":"我們就是希望基層員警能夠有更明確的執法依據……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉部長世芳","start":"2026-07-06T10:18:44.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:19:02.589000+08:00","text":"會、會，這個部分我們會更明確的告訴他，但是委員所說的要用排除法或正面表列，這恐怕會掛一漏萬，但是有一點可以確定，就是我們基層警員非常辛苦，而且一定不會吃案，只不過是用什麼樣的法律來處理報案者所受到的搔擾……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:19:04.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:19:20.381000+08:00","text":"其實我必須要講，今天在這邊討論跟騷法的修法，就是希望可以支持基層員警，讓他們有更明確的執法依據，所以我們今天不是在說什麼警察吃案的問題，而是希望我們的法律要讓基層員警能夠執行，對不對？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:19:20.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:19:36.793000+08:00","text":"如果我們把這些要件更明確的列出來，員警一看就知道是或不是，很多時候，他們也不需要自己進行判斷，承擔那麼大的壓力，這就是我們今天修法的目的，希望給他們更有用、更實在的工具。","quality":0.779},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:19:39.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:19:56.802000+08:00","text":"一個是處遇計畫，我必須說現在的這個處遇計畫是一個很大的漏洞，因為很多時候法官判下來，他們要核發處遇，必須要先鑑定行為人有沒有處遇的必要，結果相關鑑定費，署長，你知道誰要出嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:19:56.802000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:19:58.323000+08:00","text":"申請人。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:19:58.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:05.700000+08:00","text":"沒錯，被害人必須自己先出可能是幾萬塊的鑑定費，這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:05.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:06.221000+08:00","text":"委員，這部分可以修法。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:07.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:09.642000+08:00","text":"這個部分要拜託署長，我們希望這一次……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:09.642000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:10.942000+08:00","text":"這部分要修法、要修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:10.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:16.324000+08:00","text":"這個精進的方案要把這部分也一併納入，怎麼會讓被害人自己要幫加害人出鑑定費？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:16.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:18.845000+08:00","text":"委員講得很有道理，這個我們同意要修法。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:19.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:20.745000+08:00","text":"是的，這個拜託署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:20.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:33.911000+08:00","text":"最後一點，有關頒發緊急保護令的時間，其實家暴的緊急保護令是兩個小時就可以下來，但是在跟騷法裡，平均要34到36天……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"張署長榮興","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:34.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:35.392000+08:00","text":"今天司法院有代表來，這部分是不是請司法院……","quality":0.368},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:38.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:20:39.453000+08:00","text":"好，請司法院。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:20:41.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:07.053000+08:00","text":"我這邊想要明確建議，34到36天的時間，很容易變成被害人再一次遭遇騷擾，甚至更嚴重威脅的空窗期，所以我希望你們也能夠再加快頒發保護令的時間，甚至可以比照家暴，他們的緊急保護令兩個小時就下來了。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"楊法官舒嵐","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:09.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:18.217000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員垂詢，先跟委員報告，這個部分本院已經有通函提醒各個法院，在處理跟騷保護令的事件必須要妥速審理。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"楊法官舒嵐","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:19.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:35.662000+08:00","text":"第二點，因為跟騷法目前並沒有緊急保護令的制度，但是因為跟騷行為本身已經入罪，剛剛有跟委員報告過了，如果被害人個人有急迫危險的狀況，其實可以趕快提出跟騷罪的告訴，檢警機關一定會針對急迫的行為來急速的處理。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:38.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:52.881000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我希望我們接下來如果要討論跟騷法的修法，可以一併把緊急保護令放進去，未來也拜託司法院再通令下去，這個核發的速度一定要快，好嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"楊法官舒嵐","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:52.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:56.305000+08:00","text":"這個部分如果後續法制建立之後，本院會配合辦理，謝謝。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"黃委員捷","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:56.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:56.325000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:56.825000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:21:58.539286+08:00","text":"謝謝黃捷委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T10:21:58.839286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T10:22:01.982143+08:00","text":"接下來請廖先翔召委詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":447,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時13分）好，謝謝主席。我們請署長，部長可以先休息。"],["張署長榮興：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：署長好。今天跟騷法修法，我想問你，你覺得有必要嗎？"],["張署長榮興：可以精進啦！"],["黃委員捷：可以精進，沒錯，4年前我們修這個法的立意非常良善，可是我看了一下當初修法的過程，很多人說「與性或性別有關」這個要件不能刪是因為刑事局覺得跟騷案一年可能會上達8,000件，這樣的量能可能會處理不來，但4年下來，實際的數字是多少？2025年、去年全年只有2,900件，是你們預估的不到四成，看起來，其實是有能力應付的。也有很多人跟我反映，尤其我自己也接過很多類似陳情，甚至我本人也有遇到這種騷擾型的事情，以我接到的陳情案件，可能就是一直打無聲電話或者持續每天私訊被害人，被制止後，又換另一個帳號再繼續私訊，然後內容都是這種……雖然是騷擾，但是他也會避開那些性別有關的字眼，這時候能用跟騷法處理嗎？不行！這就是現在很多陳情人覺得最困擾的地方。"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個可能是委員自己的看法，如果當事人認為是有性或性別這樣的概念，我們大概就會認定是……"],["黃委員捷：但事實上有很多就是沒辦法依據現行的跟騷法來處理，所以我們才希望更精進，把更明確的要件寫進去，這對基層員警來說，只要要件更明確，他們也更能夠方便執行，因為基層員警也需要明確的執法標準，所以我覺得接下來如果我們可以把跟騷法修得……例如用排除方式，其實很多民團都有給意見，例如像有一些可能是債務糾紛，或者彼此之間有一些職務上的關係，或者是同事關係，所以不得不進行一些接觸，這個其實就可以進行豁免條款。"],["張署長榮興：委員，這個部分應該也會掛一漏萬，其實跟騷的核心價值，就是對於性別暴力這個區塊的補足，就像我剛才講的，家暴、性侵、性騷擾這些的不足……"],["黃委員捷：就是因為不足，所以必須要補足啊！"],["張署長榮興：所以跟騷的核心價值，就是性或性別，其他的部分，則有其他法律可以適用，所以被害人，就是被跟騷人，他的主觀意識是很重要的，他來我們一定會問他，被跟或者被無聲騷擾的這些，跟性或性別有沒有關係？個人的主觀意識非常重要，我們會根據主觀意識來做調查，任何案件都是依被害人的主觀意識。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["張署長榮興：主觀意識後，再根據客觀的這些證據來調查，除了主觀意識之外，還有這個行為有沒有反覆，比如好像委員所講的……"],["黃委員捷：目前其實是基本要件都有，就是說有沒有反覆持續、有沒有違反意願、有沒有心生……"],["張署長榮興：畏怖。"],["黃委員捷：畏怖，沒錯，會影響到他的日常生活，現在這三點夠了，但還是有很多沒有辦法被含納進去的……"],["張署長榮興：對啊！就是被跟的人，第一時間心裡的意願，這個我們一定會問嘛！"],["黃委員捷：是啊！但是就是這種……"],["張署長榮興：這個就會確定跟性別有沒有關係，就會確定了，其他案件也一樣，任何案件的過程一定都是這樣，就是第一個，你來的狀況、意願怎麼樣，再來做其他證據的調查，所以也不會漏接，所有案件都會受理。"],["黃委員捷：什麼叫做不會漏接？我們現在就是有接到……"],["張署長榮興：所有案件都會處理。"],["黃委員捷：類似這樣的陳情案，尤其很多是年輕女生，他們就是來問我，他們那樣的情境適不適用跟騷法？因為第一線的員警可能會覺得就沒有跟性或性別有關啊！"],["張署長榮興：那個女性可能沒有描述清楚、可能沒有……"],["黃委員捷：欸！你怎麼可以怪罪被害人啊！署長！"],["張署長榮興：不是啦！我的意思是說……"],["黃委員捷：署長，什麼叫做女性沒有描述清楚！"],["張署長榮興：不是啦！就是說……"],["黃委員捷：他當下已經非常恐懼了，然後把他遇到的情境講出來，結果你現在說他自己沒有描述清楚……"],["張署長榮興：不是啦！"],["黃委員捷：所以不適用跟騷法……"],["張署長榮興：我的意思是……"],["黃委員捷：我們現在修法不就是想要保障這群人嗎？"],["張署長榮興：要保障，當然要保障女性啦！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們都知道跟騷法裡面的被害人大概九成以上都是女性，所以如何讓跟騷法更完善，是我們今天討論的重點，但是有兩點我一定要澄清：第一個，我們警察到現在沒有人在吃案，但是他所引用的法條是不是適用跟騷法或者是其他的社秩法或家暴法等等，我想我們內部在回訓或是在勤務上會再多加清楚，這一點我們要確定，但是我也要強調，被害人說適用跟騷法，然後加害人說不適用，這個部分就涉及到警方在確認的時候是用哪一個部分，這個部分我們會再把過去一、兩千件的樣態跟他們講清楚……"],["黃委員捷：是啊！我們就是希望基層員警能夠有更明確的執法依據……"],["劉部長世芳：會、會，這個部分我們會更明確的告訴他，但是委員所說的要用排除法或正面表列，這恐怕會掛一漏萬，但是有一點可以確定，就是我們基層警員非常辛苦，而且一定不會吃案，只不過是用什麼樣的法律來處理報案者所受到的搔擾……"],["黃委員捷：其實我必須要講，今天在這邊討論跟騷法的修法，就是希望可以支持基層員警，讓他們有更明確的執法依據，所以我們今天不是在說什麼警察吃案的問題，而是希望我們的法律要讓基層員警能夠執行，對不對？如果我們把這些要件更明確的列出來，員警一看就知道是或不是，很多時候，他們也不需要自己進行判斷，承擔那麼大的壓力，這就是我們今天修法的目的，希望給他們更有用、更實在的工具。","另外，我還有兩個問題請教：一個是處遇計畫，我必須說現在的這個處遇計畫是一個很大的漏洞，因為很多時候法官判下來，他們要核發處遇，必須要先鑑定行為人有沒有處遇的必要，結果相關鑑定費，署長，你知道誰要出嗎？"],["張署長榮興：申請人。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，被害人必須自己先出可能是幾萬塊的鑑定費，這樣合理嗎？"],["張署長榮興：委員，這部分可以修法。"],["黃委員捷：這個部分要拜託署長，我們希望這一次……"],["張署長榮興：這部分要修法、要修法。"],["黃委員捷：這個精進的方案要把這部分也一併納入，怎麼會讓被害人自己要幫加害人出鑑定費？"],["張署長榮興：委員講得很有道理，這個我們同意要修法。"],["黃委員捷：是的，這個拜託署長。最後一點，有關頒發緊急保護令的時間，其實家暴的緊急保護令是兩個小時就可以下來，但是在跟騷法裡，平均要34到36天……"],["張署長榮興：今天司法院有代表來，這部分是不是請司法院……"],["黃委員捷：好，請司法院。我這邊想要明確建議，34到36天的時間，很容易變成被害人再一次遭遇騷擾，甚至更嚴重威脅的空窗期，所以我希望你們也能夠再加快頒發保護令的時間，甚至可以比照家暴，他們的緊急保護令兩個小時就下來了。"],["楊法官舒嵐：謝謝委員垂詢，先跟委員報告，這個部分本院已經有通函提醒各個法院，在處理跟騷保護令的事件必須要妥速審理。第二點，因為跟騷法目前並沒有緊急保護令的制度，但是因為跟騷行為本身已經入罪，剛剛有跟委員報告過了，如果被害人個人有急迫危險的狀況，其實可以趕快提出跟騷罪的告訴，檢警機關一定會針對急迫的行為來急速的處理。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，我希望我們接下來如果要討論跟騷法的修法，可以一併把緊急保護令放進去，未來也拜託司法院再通令下去，這個核發的速度一定要快，好嗎？"],["楊法官舒嵐：這個部分如果後續法制建立之後，本院會配合辦理，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","接下來請廖先翔召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":66,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-15,26-1","speakers":["李柏毅","林月琴","王育敏","張智倫","王美惠","張宏陸","黃捷","廖先翔","王鴻薇","黃秀芳","劉建國","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","蘇巧慧","高金素梅","許忠信","陳菁徽","張雅琳","王正旭","廖偉翔","林淑芬"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-06"],"gazette_id":"1155801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期內政、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員林月琴等21人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員王育敏\n等16人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員莊瑞雄等16人擬具「跟蹤騷\n擾防制法第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員羅明才等18人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法\n第十二條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第十二條條文修\n正草案」案；六、審查委員翁曉玲等23 人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第十二條條文修正草案」案；\n七、審查委員蘇清泉等29人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第十二條條文修正草案」案；八、審查委員廖\n先翔等22人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第三條、第四條及第九條條文修正草案」案；九、審查台灣民\n眾黨黨團擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第二條、第五條及第十二條條文修正草案」案；十、審查委員林\n宜瑾等18 人擬具「跟蹤騷擾防制法第五條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員陳瑩等 19 人擬具\n「跟蹤騷擾防制法第五條條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155801_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}