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按照他的責任劃分來做懲處按照他的責任如果以憲兵來講的話 都會 基本上當事人都是移送法辦然後計量大過 甚至撤職我們當然知道當事人 他的法律面他都已經要去關了他當然是 當然是撤職 我說在管理層面啊我就不是在講那個兵 不是在講那個班長"},{"start":264.175,"end":290.44,"text":"那它的管理層面上面也是會依照層級來做懲處好 那麻煩之後再跟我們講一下它的懲處到什麼樣的狀況以後要有這個案例出來之後以後我們的管理才會比較增強一點嘛不然大家都沒辦法 這樣是不對的嘛那數字呢 在整個軍中你們有大概掌握說我為什麼 我今天看到不管是法務部 內政部茶器多少公斤 多少原料 多少噸 多少公斤"},{"start":291.5,"end":319.367,"text":"這是他們外面輸入進來的這個東西我沒有辦法去知道說你這個查緝越多是代表什麼意義但我們可以知道是有多少的比例有沒有下降有沒有上升多少員多少人他被查獲在軍中多少人被影響他的組織犯罪狀況是怎麼樣這個是我們可以掌握的嘛是這個你不用到你海關去做海關該做的事情內政部警察再去做警察做的事情至少你們的數據要出來嘛有多少人受到影響"},{"start":320.575,"end":327.44,"text":"官局有沒有這樣子的資料有沒有上報給你們大概國防部自己有沒有做相關的資料毒品相關的"},{"start":329.161,"end":351.742,"text":"一毒品別嘛一級毒品二級毒品我想國安局這邊可能會比較從那個制度面的規劃那委員大概關注的重點是在於營區毒品安全的管理那第一部分我想剛剛參謀長也提到了營區在進出時候相關的一個安全檢查應該這個機制要更強化那第二個是在營區裡面的毒品的流通它到底是個案"},{"start":352.382,"end":381.36,"text":"還是是說有一些組織的交易的行為那這個部分可能也是一個重點那接下來才有另外一個問題是有沒有特定的犯罪組織特別把毒品以營區為主要的行銷的對象那像這種比較總體性的這些可能的樣態我想後續我們依照我們勤工法來制導統合協調那縣子部這邊來做再更進一步的釐清因為一個在桃園嘛那一個在祁山嘛"},{"start":382,"end":400.937,"text":"那我剛剛講到這個從毒品到這個財務上面的議題也就是說當主頭啦 賭博網站這不是我們一直在講的國安問題嗎這個哪一個被吸收 哪一個供點就回到我們今天在媒體在問到說我們講到教育講到愛國教育 反共愛國教育等等"},{"start":401.843,"end":412.502,"text":"我們先以任務為導向來做我們先講先不要講這個我們可能因為其實在進入軍中之前大概"},{"start":413.883,"end":437.971,"text":"這些兵員大概本身就已經有他們自己的價值觀但有些事情是可以做有些事情是不可以做的你可以閱讀你想要看的任何書籍憲法保障人民的自由那哪些是不可以做的包含這情報滲透包含這些賭博相關的組織滲透這些是要教育的不是教條不是在那邊在那邊站立牆然後重複這講十次或者是講這一個"},{"start":439.511,"end":463.726,"text":"我不知道 就是40年代50年代國民黨的那種教育40年代國民黨的教育 50年代國民黨的教育共諜有因此而減少嗎沒有啊 它一樣滲透在最高層啊同樣的 那我們現在現代化現代化的這個國家戰略不是學50 60年代的這種國民黨的這種教條式的教育教條式的教育講了50年之後還是一樣吧"},{"start":464.626,"end":482.407,"text":"那不是教條式的教育你就要很清楚的說你要怎麼樣反滲透怎麼樣反情報什麼是need to know什麼需要知道什麼不需要知道什麼樣的情報的傳遞方式什麼樣的安全查核你都要做嘛那你在跟我教條式的國防部在講這個回到國民黨時代的這種做法有什麼意義一樣嘛賭博"},{"start":483.669,"end":512.556,"text":"主投加要投主投加要投加共諜這樣子的會不斷的他把他聯繫起來那才是可怕那就是組織性犯罪如果只是賭博的話是財務性財務性的話當然有他的這個非常令人擔憂的部分但財務性的話或許還可以透過一些機制來去償還債務那當你有要贏的時候就等於說這一個這個系統剛才我們提到從班長下士到這些官兵接下來是官兵吸收"},{"start":513.576,"end":522.158,"text":"就像官兵吸收班長班長威脅官兵哇天啊這實在是這是很可怕的事情而且看起來南北大串聯"},{"start":523.697,"end":546.989,"text":"高雄也有 桃園也有 還有一些我們沒有查到的怎麼辦那其實軍中是社會的縮影嘛表示他們 等到他們還有裝病 裝病然後後來就免疫我天啊 什麼花招都有 這是多麼可怕的事情 這是一個旅那所有 有藥頭 有煮頭 有裝病免疫的逃兵"},{"start":549.275,"end":557.87,"text":"那行政查處到哪裡 管理的責任到哪裡今天我們在委員會的時候 這樣不知道這樣對嗎 好像不太對吧"},{"start":559.861,"end":586.108,"text":"這個情報你有掌握嗎哇 這個已經滑稽到 這個是太可怕了 這個必須要處理局長有什麼看法這部分因為涉及到軍隊的管理那就藥品的查處的部分我想縣指部這邊我們再來跟他們加強做一些指導看重點要放在我剛剛跟委員報告的幾個面向那第二部分是在部隊內部除了行政查處以外"},{"start":586.588,"end":615.732,"text":"宣教也非常重要那這部分我們在跟我們國安情報單隊的政戰局也希望他們這一部分來加強做一些處理讓官兵弟兄不是只有單向的接受這些宣教而是能夠任意化成一般日常的一個行為來避免剛剛委員提到的問題對啦 我就是剛剛講的都對但是就是在強調就是責任啦 責任政治行政的責任政治國會議員受到選民的監督每四年選一次那我放在我們現在行政的各位長官們好像"},{"start":617.372,"end":638.295,"text":"只要講一些政治的話他好像不用負政策的責任或者是負管理的責任這樣不太對吧?行政上面的責任是什麼樣?那憲兵他是協助查處的當然重中之重"},{"start":639.212,"end":661.053,"text":"但我應該不用提醒你們,2025年你們有共諜四個軍人,他們也有判七年的定讞喔。那行政查處咧?後來到哪裡?後來是有誰負政治責任?有嗎?有人負政治責任嗎?我不是自問自答,我現在問有沒有人負政治責任?沒關係,之後再跟我講到底管理到什麼的。"},{"start":662.386,"end":688.259,"text":"到什麼樣的層級因為我們要公平嘛就是說不要說有些我們認為重要的大案就要叫人家負政治責任有些其實一樣重要但沒有所以一定要有相對的克責的制度那這個克責制度特別是在軍中還是有它的管理上面的我沒有要叫你們負法律的責任行政上面的責任是什麼不是該員兩大過太處他都要去關了太處對不對好 謝謝好 謝謝委員提醒"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:08.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:30:11.586000+08:00","text":"我們先請國防部憲兵指揮部。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:14.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:30:14.288000+08:00","text":"請憲指部。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:27.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:30:27.240000+08:00","text":"參謀長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:27.240000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:30:32.299000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:32.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:30:49.630000+08:00","text":"剛才有幾個委員好像有提到陸軍109旅的部分，應該剛才有提到了，我們仔細看一下這個案件，我們發覺這對國軍、對我國的國防來講，是一件非常可怕的事情，等一下我們也會請國安局一起來討論。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:30:52.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:31:05.417000+08:00","text":"為什麼會可怕的原因在於我發覺到軍中不僅有藥頭，竟然藥頭跟組頭還結合在一起，更令人覺得可怕，也就是從財務問題到藥品濫用問題。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:31:05.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:31:16.202000+08:00","text":"看起來也不是單一軍種，不單從士官兵，甚至軍官都有可能完全被滲透，所以我非常擔心這樣子的狀況。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:31:16.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:31:41.483000+08:00","text":"我看到起訴書內容包含行賄班長，班長黑吃黑，就是查獲到毒品之後，竟然還索討貪污，然後藥品再發回，因為他已經把它贖回，這其實都是無法想像的，也就是上下交相賊，從兵到官全部都在這個體系裡面。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:31:42.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:31:58.395000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，在這一次的案件，我們就講109旅，我都還不要講其他的案件，包含義務兵攜帶毒品進入營區，他也不是被查緝，是在做安全檢查的時候主動說這是喪屍煙彈。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:00.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:32:08.210000+08:00","text":"這樣一而再、再而三的發生，不是單一案件，這可能是完整的網絡，從組頭到藥頭蔓延在各個軍中。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:08.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:32:10.693000+08:00","text":"關於這個部分，你們掌握的狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:12.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:32:15.119000+08:00","text":"相關的行政懲處，目前是做到怎麼樣？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:15.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:32:17.982000+08:00","text":"我現在不講法律面，就講行政的懲處面的狀況。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:19.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:32:43.586000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，有關剛剛講的109旅，這兩個案件是軍事訓練役在進入營區之後，後面所產生的案件，他在營區內吸收班長或是向上發展，成為一個群組網絡的販售跟交易。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:32:44.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:03.305000+08:00","text":"在單位報給我們憲兵隊之後，我們就會立即針對這些案件實施偵辦，屬於法律的部分，當然就移由檢察官偵辦，而行政懲處部分就是該單位來實施辦理。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:03.966000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:10.515000+08:00","text":"我知道該單位實施辦理，我想請教一下，就你的掌握，該單位懲處到什麼樣的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:10.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:10.855000+08:00","text":"懲處到什麼層級？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:10.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:12.678000+08:00","text":"有誰負政治責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:13.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:13.879000+08:00","text":"還是不太清楚？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:14.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:15.862000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個不太清楚。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:17.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:22.984000+08:00","text":"我為什麼要講這件事情，我們現在講法律責任，法律責任當然是要負的，但是行政責任呢？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:23.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:42.276000+08:00","text":"我看到包含共諜案在憲兵自己本身就有，我發現到一件事情，就是在行政懲處上面，你們好像也當作無關緊要的感覺，反正過了一陣子之後，大家沒有再提就沒事了，法律面就法律面，沒有關係。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:43.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:43.917000+08:00","text":"你們這樣怎麼治軍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:44.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:45.338000+08:00","text":"行政面呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:46.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:47.080000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告一下……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:47.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:33:58.405000+08:00","text":"今天我們外交及國防委員會召開這樣的會議，您本來就應該要預測到我們會問類似的問題，就是行政懲處到誰，這個你們沒有辦法掌握？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:33:59.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:06.688000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果有在營區內發生毒品案件，原則上都會記兩大過，汰除為主。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:06.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:07.549000+08:00","text":"記兩大過汰除到什麼層級？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:07.549000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:13.693000+08:00","text":"我指行政面。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:13.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:21.918000+08:00","text":"按照他的責任劃分來做懲處，以憲兵來講的話，基本上，當事人都是移送法辦，然後記兩大過，甚至撤職。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:23.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:26.380000+08:00","text":"當事人就法律面都已經要去關了，我們當然知道是撤職。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:26.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:30.383000+08:00","text":"我是說在管理層面，不是在講那個兵、那個班長。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"張參謀長純志","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:32.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:36.056000+08:00","text":"管理層面上也是會依照層級來做懲處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:36.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:46.118000+08:00","text":"好，麻煩之後再跟我們講一下懲處到什麼樣的狀況，以後有這個案例出來，管理才會比較增強一點，不然大家都無關緊要，這樣是不對的嘛。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:47.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:34:47.478000+08:00","text":"數字呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:34:47.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:09.322000+08:00","text":"在整個軍中，你們有大概掌握說……我今天看到不管是法務部、內政部查緝多少公斤、多少原料、多少噸，這是他們外面輸入進來的東西，我沒有辦法知道你查緝越多是代表什麼意義，但我們可以知道有多少的比例，有沒有下降、有沒有上升？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:09.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:12.843000+08:00","text":"多少員、多少人被查獲？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:12.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:17.224000+08:00","text":"在軍中多少人被影響、他的組織犯罪狀況是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:17.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:18.205000+08:00","text":"這是我們可以掌握的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:20.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:27.367000+08:00","text":"海關去做海關該做的事情，內政部警察去做警察該做的事情，至少你們的數據要出來，有多少人受到影響？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:28.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:32.157000+08:00","text":"國安局有沒有這樣子的資料，有沒有上報給你們？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:32.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:39.003000+08:00","text":"國防部自己有沒有做相關的資料，跟毒品相關的，依毒品級別嘛，一級毒品、二級……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:39.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:35:55.378000+08:00","text":"國安局這邊可能會比較從制度面的規劃，委員關注的重點是在於營區毒品安全的管理，第一個部分，我想剛剛參謀長也提到營區在進出時候的相關安全檢查，這個機制應該要更強化。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:35:56.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:36:02.884000+08:00","text":"第二個部分是營區裡面的毒品流通，到底是個案還是有組織的交易行為？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:36:03.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:36:13.770000+08:00","text":"這個部分可能也是一個重點，接下來才有另外一個問題就是有沒有特定的犯罪組織，特別以營區為主要的毒品行銷對象。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:36:14.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:36:25.818000+08:00","text":"像這種比較總體性的可能樣態，我想後續我們依照情工法來指導統合協調憲指部這邊來更進一步地釐清。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:36:26.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:36:41.070000+08:00","text":"好，因為一個在桃園，一個在旗山，我剛剛講到從毒品到財務上面的議題，也就是當組頭跟賭博網站，這不就是我們一直在講的國安問題？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:36:41.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:36:42.411000+08:00","text":"哪一個被吸收、哪一個是共諜。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:36:43.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:37:21.669000+08:00","text":"回到今天媒體問到我們講到教育，愛國教育、反共愛國教育等等，我們先以任務為導向來做，你先不要講我們可能……因為其實在進入軍中之前，這些兵員本身大概就已經有他們自己的價值觀，但有些事情可以做，有些事情不可以做的，你可以閱讀你想要看的任何書籍，憲法保障人民的自由，但哪些是不可以做的，包含情報滲透、包含這些賭博相關的組織滲透，這些是要教育的，不是教條喔！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:37:21.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:37:35.096000+08:00","text":"不是在那邊喊戰力強，然後重複講10次，或者是講40年代、50年代國民黨那種教育，這我不知道，但是在40年代、50年代國民黨的教育之下，共諜有因此而減少嗎？","quality":0.678},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:37:35.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:37:36.677000+08:00","text":"沒有啊，一樣滲透在最高層啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:37:37.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:37:51.706000+08:00","text":"同樣的，我們現代化的國家戰略，不是學五、六○年代國民黨教條式的教育，教條式的教育講了50年之後還是一樣。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:37:52.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:03.039000+08:00","text":"既然不是教條式的教育，你就要很清楚地說你要怎麼樣反滲透、怎麼樣反情報，什麼是need to know，什麼需要知道，什麼不需要知道，什麼樣的情報傳遞方式以及什麼樣的安全查核你都要做。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:04.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:09.286000+08:00","text":"國防部再講這樣教條式的、回到國民黨時代的做法有什麼意義？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:09.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:19.611000+08:00","text":"一樣嘛，賭博組頭加藥頭加共諜，這樣子不斷地聯繫起來，那才是可怕，就是組織性犯罪。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:20.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:32.094000+08:00","text":"如果只是賭博的話，是財務性，當然有其非常令人擔憂的部分，但財務性的話，或許還可以透過一些機制來償還債務。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:32.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:45.466000+08:00","text":"當你有藥癮的時候，就等於說這一個系統，剛才我們提到從班長、下士到這些官兵，竟然官兵吸收班長、班長威脅官兵，天啊！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:45.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:38:54.979000+08:00","text":"這實在是很可怕的事情，而且看起來南北大串聯，高雄也有，桃園也有，還有一些我們沒有查到的怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:38:55.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:03.743000+08:00","text":"其實軍中是社會的縮影，表示他們……還有裝病的，後來就免役，我的天啊！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:03.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:05.644000+08:00","text":"什麼花招都有，這是多麼可怕的事情！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:06.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:14.969000+08:00","text":"這是一個旅，有藥頭、有組頭、有裝病免役的逃兵。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:17.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:19.719000+08:00","text":"行政查處到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:19.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:21.803000+08:00","text":"管理責任到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:21.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:25.269000+08:00","text":"今天我們在委員會竟然不知道，這樣對嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:25.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:30.022000+08:00","text":"好像不太對吧，這樣子的情報你有掌握嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:30.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:35.223000+08:00","text":"這個已經滑稽到……這太可怕了，必須要處理，局長有什麼看法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:35.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:39:49.247000+08:00","text":"這部分因為涉及到軍隊的管理，就藥品的查處部分，憲指部這邊我們再來加強做一些指導，重點要放在我剛剛跟委員報告的幾個面向。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:39:49.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:10.161000+08:00","text":"第二部分是在部隊內部，除了行政查處以外，宣教也非常重要，這部分也希望國安情報單位、政戰局再加強處理，讓官兵弟兄不是只有單向接受宣教，而是能夠內化成一般日常的行為，避免剛剛委員提到的問題。對啦！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:11.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:16.326000+08:00","text":"剛剛講的都對，但就是在強調責任，也就是行政的責任政治。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:18.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:35.904000+08:00","text":"國會議員受到選民的監督，每4年選一次，但我發現現在行政的各個長官們好像只要講一些政治的話，好像都不用負政策的責任或者是負管理的責任，這樣不太對吧！","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:35.904000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:39.848000+08:00","text":"國軍的管理部分我們再提醒相關單位。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:39.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:54.759000+08:00","text":"行政上的責任是什麼樣……憲兵是協助查處的，是重中之重，但我應該不用提醒你們，2025年你們有4個共諜軍人被判刑7年定讞，行政查處呢？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:54.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:56.741000+08:00","text":"後來到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:56.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:40:59.324000+08:00","text":"後來是有誰負政治責任？有嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:40:59.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:02.647000+08:00","text":"有人負政治責任嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:02.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:04.909000+08:00","text":"我不是自問自答，我現在是問有沒有人負政治責任？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:06.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:10.906000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，之後再跟我講到底到什麼樣的層級？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:10.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:12.287000+08:00","text":"因為要公平嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:12.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:19.211000+08:00","text":"不要有些我們認為重要的大案就要人家負政治責任，有些其實一樣重要但卻沒有！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:19.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:30.857000+08:00","text":"所以一定要有相對的課責制度，這個課責制度特別是在軍中還是有管理上的……我沒有要你們負法律責任，但行政上的責任是什麼？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:30.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:34.318000+08:00","text":"不是「該員兩大過汰除」，都要被關了，汰除？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:35.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:35.999000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蔡局長明彥","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:36.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:36.239000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒。謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席（馬委員文君）","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:36.739000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:41.596143+08:00","text":"接下來請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（馬委員文君）","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:41.896143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:41:49.610429+08:00","text":"今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（馬委員文君）","start":"2026-07-06T11:41:49.910429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:42:01.053286+08:00","text":"本日會議有王定宇委員、黃仁委員、吳宗憲委員、徐欣瑩委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（馬委員文君）","start":"2026-07-06T11:42:01.353286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:42:15.067571+08:00","text":"委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請相關機關兩週內以書面答復，委員有指定期限者，從其所定。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":572,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（11時30分）我們先請國防部憲兵指揮部。"],["主席：請憲指部。"],["陳委員冠廷：參謀長好。"],["張參謀長純志：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才有幾個委員好像有提到陸軍109旅的部分，應該剛才有提到了，我們仔細看一下這個案件，我們發覺這對國軍、對我國的國防來講，是一件非常可怕的事情，等一下我們也會請國安局一起來討論。","為什麼會可怕的原因在於我發覺到軍中不僅有藥頭，竟然藥頭跟組頭還結合在一起，更令人覺得可怕，也就是從財務問題到藥品濫用問題。看起來也不是單一軍種，不單從士官兵，甚至軍官都有可能完全被滲透，所以我非常擔心這樣子的狀況。我看到起訴書內容包含行賄班長，班長黑吃黑，就是查獲到毒品之後，竟然還索討貪污，然後藥品再發回，因為他已經把它贖回，這其實都是無法想像的，也就是上下交相賊，從兵到官全部都在這個體系裡面。","我想請教一下，在這一次的案件，我們就講109旅，我都還不要講其他的案件，包含義務兵攜帶毒品進入營區，他也不是被查緝，是在做安全檢查的時候主動說這是喪屍煙彈。這樣一而再、再而三的發生，不是單一案件，這可能是完整的網絡，從組頭到藥頭蔓延在各個軍中。關於這個部分，你們掌握的狀況是怎麼樣？相關的行政懲處，目前是做到怎麼樣？我現在不講法律面，就講行政的懲處面的狀況。"],["張參謀長純志：跟委員報告，有關剛剛講的109旅，這兩個案件是軍事訓練役在進入營區之後，後面所產生的案件，他在營區內吸收班長或是向上發展，成為一個群組網絡的販售跟交易。在單位報給我們憲兵隊之後，我們就會立即針對這些案件實施偵辦，屬於法律的部分，當然就移由檢察官偵辦，而行政懲處部分就是該單位來實施辦理。"],["陳委員冠廷：我知道該單位實施辦理，我想請教一下，就你的掌握，該單位懲處到什麼樣的狀況？懲處到什麼層級？有誰負政治責任？還是不太清楚？"],["張參謀長純志：跟委員報告，這個不太清楚。"],["陳委員冠廷：我為什麼要講這件事情，我們現在講法律責任，法律責任當然是要負的，但是行政責任呢？我看到包含共諜案在憲兵自己本身就有，我發現到一件事情，就是在行政懲處上面，你們好像也當作無關緊要的感覺，反正過了一陣子之後，大家沒有再提就沒事了，法律面就法律面，沒有關係。你們這樣怎麼治軍？行政面呢？"],["張參謀長純志：跟委員報告一下……"],["陳委員冠廷：今天我們外交及國防委員會召開這樣的會議，您本來就應該要預測到我們會問類似的問題，就是行政懲處到誰，這個你們沒有辦法掌握？"],["張參謀長純志：跟委員報告，如果有在營區內發生毒品案件，原則上都會記兩大過，汰除為主。"],["陳委員冠廷：記兩大過汰除到什麼層級？我指行政面。"],["張參謀長純志：按照他的責任劃分來做懲處，以憲兵來講的話，基本上，當事人都是移送法辦，然後記兩大過，甚至撤職。"],["陳委員冠廷：當事人就法律面都已經要去關了，我們當然知道是撤職。我是說在管理層面，不是在講那個兵、那個班長。"],["張參謀長純志：管理層面上也是會依照層級來做懲處。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，麻煩之後再跟我們講一下懲處到什麼樣的狀況，以後有這個案例出來，管理才會比較增強一點，不然大家都無關緊要，這樣是不對的嘛。","數字呢？在整個軍中，你們有大概掌握說……我今天看到不管是法務部、內政部查緝多少公斤、多少原料、多少噸，這是他們外面輸入進來的東西，我沒有辦法知道你查緝越多是代表什麼意義，但我們可以知道有多少的比例，有沒有下降、有沒有上升？多少員、多少人被查獲？在軍中多少人被影響、他的組織犯罪狀況是怎麼樣？這是我們可以掌握的。海關去做海關該做的事情，內政部警察去做警察該做的事情，至少你們的數據要出來，有多少人受到影響？國安局有沒有這樣子的資料，有沒有上報給你們？國防部自己有沒有做相關的資料，跟毒品相關的，依毒品級別嘛，一級毒品、二級……"],["蔡局長明彥：國安局這邊可能會比較從制度面的規劃，委員關注的重點是在於營區毒品安全的管理，第一個部分，我想剛剛參謀長也提到營區在進出時候的相關安全檢查，這個機制應該要更強化。第二個部分是營區裡面的毒品流通，到底是個案還是有組織的交易行為？這個部分可能也是一個重點，接下來才有另外一個問題就是有沒有特定的犯罪組織，特別以營區為主要的毒品行銷對象。像這種比較總體性的可能樣態，我想後續我們依照情工法來指導統合協調憲指部這邊來更進一步地釐清。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，因為一個在桃園，一個在旗山，我剛剛講到從毒品到財務上面的議題，也就是當組頭跟賭博網站，這不就是我們一直在講的國安問題？哪一個被吸收、哪一個是共諜。","回到今天媒體問到我們講到教育，愛國教育、反共愛國教育等等，我們先以任務為導向來做，你先不要講我們可能……因為其實在進入軍中之前，這些兵員本身大概就已經有他們自己的價值觀，但有些事情可以做，有些事情不可以做的，你可以閱讀你想要看的任何書籍，憲法保障人民的自由，但哪些是不可以做的，包含情報滲透、包含這些賭博相關的組織滲透，這些是要教育的，不是教條喔！不是在那邊喊戰力強，然後重複講10次，或者是講40年代、50年代國民黨那種教育，這我不知道，但是在40年代、50年代國民黨的教育之下，共諜有因此而減少嗎？沒有啊，一樣滲透在最高層啊！同樣的，我們現代化的國家戰略，不是學五、六○年代國民黨教條式的教育，教條式的教育講了50年之後還是一樣。既然不是教條式的教育，你就要很清楚地說你要怎麼樣反滲透、怎麼樣反情報，什麼是need to know，什麼需要知道，什麼不需要知道，什麼樣的情報傳遞方式以及什麼樣的安全查核你都要做。國防部再講這樣教條式的、回到國民黨時代的做法有什麼意義？","一樣嘛，賭博組頭加藥頭加共諜，這樣子不斷地聯繫起來，那才是可怕，就是組織性犯罪。如果只是賭博的話，是財務性，當然有其非常令人擔憂的部分，但財務性的話，或許還可以透過一些機制來償還債務。當你有藥癮的時候，就等於說這一個系統，剛才我們提到從班長、下士到這些官兵，竟然官兵吸收班長、班長威脅官兵，天啊！這實在是很可怕的事情，而且看起來南北大串聯，高雄也有，桃園也有，還有一些我們沒有查到的怎麼辦？其實軍中是社會的縮影，表示他們……還有裝病的，後來就免役，我的天啊！什麼花招都有，這是多麼可怕的事情！這是一個旅，有藥頭、有組頭、有裝病免役的逃兵。行政查處到哪裡？管理責任到哪裡？今天我們在委員會竟然不知道，這樣對嗎？好像不太對吧，這樣子的情報你有掌握嗎？這個已經滑稽到……這太可怕了，必須要處理，局長有什麼看法？"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分因為涉及到軍隊的管理，就藥品的查處部分，憲指部這邊我們再來加強做一些指導，重點要放在我剛剛跟委員報告的幾個面向。","第二部分是在部隊內部，除了行政查處以外，宣教也非常重要，這部分也希望國安情報單位、政戰局再加強處理，讓官兵弟兄不是只有單向接受宣教，而是能夠內化成一般日常的行為，避免剛剛委員提到的問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：對啦！剛剛講的都對，但就是在強調責任，也就是行政的責任政治。國會議員受到選民的監督，每4年選一次，但我發現現在行政的各個長官們好像只要講一些政治的話，好像都不用負政策的責任或者是負管理的責任，這樣不太對吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：國軍的管理部分我們再提醒相關單位。"],["陳委員冠廷：行政上的責任是什麼樣……憲兵是協助查處的，是重中之重，但我應該不用提醒你們，2025年你們有4個共諜軍人被判刑7年定讞，行政查處呢？後來到哪裡？後來是有誰負政治責任？有嗎？有人負政治責任嗎？我不是自問自答，我現在是問有沒有人負政治責任？好，沒關係，之後再跟我講到底到什麼樣的層級？因為要公平嘛！不要有些我們認為重要的大案就要人家負政治責任，有些其實一樣重要但卻沒有！所以一定要有相對的課責制度，這個課責制度特別是在軍中還是有管理上的……我沒有要你們負法律責任，但行政上的責任是什麼？不是「該員兩大過汰除」，都要被關了，汰除？好，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝。","接下來請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","今天已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有王定宇委員、黃仁委員、吳宗憲委員、徐欣瑩委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報。委員書面及口頭質詢未及答復部分，或要求補充資料者，請相關機關兩週內以書面答復，委員有指定期限者，從其所定。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":56,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-25","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","林楚茵","牛煦庭","王安祥","王義川","徐巧芯","黃建賓","賴士葆","陳冠廷","王定宇","黃仁","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-06"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、內政部、法務部報告「新興毒品走私之國安情資整合與跨國緝毒協\n同作為」，併請海洋委員會海巡署、財政部關務署、國防部憲兵指揮部列席，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}