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哪有可能將近三個月的時間你們這些董事會的人全部都不知道"},{"start":252.232,"end":259.639,"text":"後來讓我想通了 我覺得很奇怪為什麼呢 因為他在6月24號改選董監事如果6月24號改選董監事的話我當然這個訊息會不會影響到董監的改選我先給你看看好不好我不相信這件事情 這三大股東不知情"},{"start":276.514,"end":284.041,"text":"為什麼?中聯的董事長其實就是這三家裡面的其中一個董事長來當董事長喔所以他們怎麼會不知道本來他採購的是從美國動比較穩定的長期就是美國動後來你這個採購量這麼大"},{"start":297.094,"end":308.345,"text":"然後呢這種跨國運送又涉及到期貨契約的你去把它買一個比較便宜的那個烘烤的煙燻的巴西豆不是說巴西豆不能買我意思是說你從美國豆你要把它轉換成巴西豆的時候第一個就有價差的問題嘛那是誰決策決策哪有三大股東都不知道"},{"start":320,"end":341.811,"text":"你董事長本身就是三大股東之一來做的啊所以我是覺得市長這個問題喔非常嚴重的地方就是說已經全台在串流啦你回收率喔你如果說我們知道現在個位數啦這個是多可怕的一件事情啊所以我認為喔這件事情涉及到集體的盈利我都很認為喔"},{"start":345.424,"end":348.586,"text":"所以說 市長你在做什麼事情的時候 你不覺得扶植林林不用叫來嗎廠長不用找來問一問嗎 評管人員不用找來問一問嗎然後全國各縣市的那個分莊廠 配貨發送了多少 各地檢署那時候你們在辦的時候 早上你們整個都衝進去這件事情我認為 法務部你們腳步要加快涉及到全國人民的食安的問題"},{"start":372.659,"end":378.923,"text":"這不是一天一天的問題這產品是都流傳的也到我們家庭 也到學校裡面去各個夜市裡面去 每一個人都中招啊每一個人都中招啊那消費者會問你說這次政府你的角色到底是什麼這種人看嘛 就這麼簡單嘛你不要以為說這好像是 我服貿 我服售我泰山 我把中年滅 我們好可憐這鬼的咧他們全部都是共犯啦"},{"start":402.403,"end":412.97,"text":"他們全部都是加害者啊他們必須對消費者來講這次他們就是加害者他們必須要給全體國人一個交代外面那個市長跟市長你們的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":413.971,"end":440.751,"text":"跟委員報告就是說食安的部分因為牽涉到國人的身體健康這絕對不容許說有任何的侵害啦所以法務部的態度跟委員的態度這邊是一樣的就是我們對這件事情會高度的重視那我們在高檢署有成立這個打擊民生犯罪平台各地檢署也有打擊民生犯罪平台那這一次的狀況也不單單只會是台中地檢署台中地檢署已經立即成立了你今天去哪裡開始啦7月3號的時候就是說有分案了嘛"},{"start":441.811,"end":467.636,"text":"現在專案會議也開了然後針對於說我們現在目前委員剛剛提到的郵品的範圍怎麼樣用食安團隊來讓他就是儘速的查確認範圍然後把它就是回收下架然後另外一個部分就是說針對於剛剛提到的文書是不是有隱匿的部分這個部分檢察機關也會去進行他們的一個調查市長法務部現在的責任是什麼四月份四月四號藍僑跟你中聯講這三大股東不可能不知道"},{"start":471.806,"end":478.531,"text":"三大股東裡面其中一個就是董事長其他人都是董監事受責到大額採購的一個變換從場地的變換 涉及到期貨的一個合約這大股東不可能不知道這大嫁的 你知不知道我如果是那間的酒店"},{"start":486.704,"end":488.226,"text":"假設我是中聯有職的一個廠長藍橋來跟我講以後 我會點點我這個廠長真的都 這三個月到底發生了什麼事這個欺騙台灣社會耶 這個集體在隱匿耶"},{"start":504.106,"end":513.869,"text":"他們這個傳播對台灣的消費者來講他們就是加害者我今天沒有時間去講到被害者保護的一個問題但是這個議題我倒認為說要有更強硬的一個手段啦不能說他們是大手手啦"},{"start":526.003,"end":536.788,"text":"你這個殘害對抗的你看這個兩千三百萬人的健康讓他們拿這樣的一個為他們自己的一個利益那個東西在跟我們對賭你知道嗎用我們的健康在對賭他們不只我都很懷疑四月四號知道以後假設我庫存還很多的話為什麼要拖三個月的時間我看不只是股東"},{"start":547.313,"end":555.316,"text":"那個開股東大會在改選董監事的問題我剛才涉及到說不然這個損失太大是不是把這些先把它給消掉很合理的啊那如果是這樣子的話這邊全部都是無良的廠商耶我在司法法治委員會我從來不針對個案去講話但是問題是涉及到全體台灣人全體兩千三百萬人的身體健康跟生命的一個問題啊超標四倍 致癌一級耶"},{"start":576.184,"end":603.733,"text":"誰敢中的呢 啊這要怎麼做這要怎麼做 政府立場要怎麼做所以你罰不 我認為你們本來就應該要強硬啊跟委員報告 我們在這件事情上我們一定會採取重訴重嚴的這個角度那個案的部分我們已經請高檢署還有各地檢署針對這個部分去處理那針對於說這個剛剛所提到的確認範圍跟文書的部分的隱匿以及有沒有刑事責任或者說相關的一些行政責任的部分"},{"start":604.133,"end":607.194,"text":"食安團隊的這個部分會積極去做我們不預設立場我們在立盤從來就不預設立場但問題是說發生這種這麼嚴重的食安的一個事件這些不合理的狀況你法務部你就必須要站在消費者的後面你必須要當在當消費者的一個後盾啊這樣才對啊"},{"start":623.021,"end":640.391,"text":"要給要求這些業者或者你們要盡速查明這三個月的時間到底他們在幹什麼你要給國人一個交代啊是 跟委員報告我們今天早上台中地檢署也發了新聞稿然後就是把他們目前的一個可以跟社會大眾講的部分都已經就寫在新聞稿上"},{"start":640.771,"end":646.915,"text":"那會後的部分我也把這份新聞稿立刻傳給那個那麥公獻旗啦 市長我覺得我在這個地方這個質詢很合理啦民眾有這個來講的話標準有知的權利嘛這三個月到底在幹什麼這三個月為什麼會把這個訊息把它掩蓋起來到底發生了什麼事讓台灣兩千三百萬的人陷入這樣的嚴重的一個食安致癌的一個危機"},{"start":667.853,"end":693.115,"text":"不尋常啦整個契約變更去改變美國豆改成巴西豆這你的自由你可以講出很多的一個理由但是這三大股東他不是路人甲他們也不是受害者董事長就是三大股東之一董建市大家都有派駐這樣的一個重大的變更他們不可能不知情然後你中聯知道以後"},{"start":694.235,"end":708.786,"text":"知道南橋跟你市井以後代表三大股東全部都知道那全部都知道為什麼四月知道到六月底的時候才要來通報按照食安法的規定你本來知道以後就要停止生產跟回收 它都沒有"},{"start":710.367,"end":736.648,"text":"繼續做 繼續賣 可惡的地方在這裡啊所以 我要求法務部 你就必須要給消費者的後盾儘速 我不要給你定期 儘速給消費者 給全國人民一個交代好不好合理嘛 阿米教育林個案啦嘛 總是事實要去做一個這個涉及到 民眾健康權益的問題嘛好不好 這一題 給大家看一看啦 好不好 謝謝好 謝謝莊召偉"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:51:35.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:51:36.811000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請法務部馮成次長、檢察司張司長。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T11:51:37.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:51:37.231000+08:00","text":"請馮次長跟張司長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:51:37.231000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T11:51:54.694000+08:00","text":"召委好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:51:54.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:52:05.061000+08:00","text":"我想要來就教次長跟司長，對於中聯油脂這件事情，我覺得裡面有貓膩，我覺得有非常奇怪的地方。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:52:07.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:52:23.018000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂的油檢出會讓臺灣民眾的健康遭受到嚴重損害的一級致癌物「苯駢芘」，很專業的一個名詞，這是翻譯過來的。","quality":0.604},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:52:23.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:53:07.890000+08:00","text":"我為什麼覺得裡面有貓膩的地方，就是在4月4號南僑發現了以後，就向供應商示警說致癌物「苯駢芘」出現超標，超過4倍，4月4號就已經知道了，但你去看中聯油脂，現在看起來好像大家都在講中聯油脂，哪是中聯油脂，中聯油脂其實就是福懋、福壽、泰山這幾家，每家就是33.3%、各占三分之一，他們全部都是大股東啊，所以不是中聯，而是這三家，中聯只是個殼子，這三家其實才是真正的當事人啊！","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:53:08.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:53:18.456000+08:00","text":"好了，問題來了，為什麼到6月底、6月30號這件事情才被我們食藥署揭露出來？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:53:19.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:53:41.085000+08:00","text":"我今天也特別跟你們部長打了個電話，這個不是只有臺中地檢署要去辦，你們應該要在高檢署有一個全國查緝的平臺，因為畢竟中聯在各個縣市裡面還是有工廠，彰化也好、高雄也好，甚至於發貨也有一些倉庫嘛。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:53:43.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:53:49.769000+08:00","text":"這個問題我覺得有個非常可惡的地方是集體隱匿、集體造假，為什麼我這樣講？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:53:49.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:11.017000+08:00","text":"按照我們的食品安全衛生管理法第七條的規定，食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，第一個事情就是要停止製造，南僑在4月4號向你們示警說工廠生產的東西超標4倍，有致癌的風險，那為什麼到6月30號政府才知道？","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:11.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:12.558000+08:00","text":"在這段將近3個月的時間，中聯還有這三家業者在幹什麼？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:12.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:12.938000+08:00","text":"你們不覺得奇怪嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:13.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:54.431000+08:00","text":"司長，你們也都是當過檢察長的人，這個案子如果到你們手上的話，以我這個有30年律師經驗的人來看，我就知道不尋常，第一個，這三家根本就不是被害者，這三家跟中聯一樣都是加害者，理論上，任何一家工廠知道了，第一件事情一定是停止製造，一定會覺得：夭壽喔！","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:54.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:54.551000+08:00","text":"嚴重了！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:54.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:55.072000+08:00","text":"為什麼超過4倍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:55.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:55.752000+08:00","text":"然後就要停止製造；第二個就是要趕快去回收產品。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:54:55.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:54:57.494000+08:00","text":"其實第一件要做的事情是要趕快通報，這是他的義務，這是在我們食安法裡面規定得非常清楚的，要趕快去回收啊！","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:13.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:55:15.953000+08:00","text":"可是全部都沒有做，在4月份南僑跟你說有異常、超標4倍，一直到6月30號才通報，你們不覺得很奇怪嗎？","quality":0.513},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:15.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:55:16.253000+08:00","text":"我為什麼說光臺中地檢署偵辦還不夠？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:16.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:55:19.075000+08:00","text":"因為這涉及到很多事情，要到各個倉庫、各個分廠查，因為是從大型倉儲去配送，所以要再查下去。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:19.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:55:20.416000+08:00","text":"我今天早上一直在想一個問題，我覺得很奇怪，哪有可能將近3個月的時間這些董事會的人全部都不知道？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:45.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:55:50.698000+08:00","text":"我覺得很奇怪，後來我才想通了是為什麼，因為是在6月24號改選董監事，當然會擔心這個訊息會不會影響到董監事的改選，所以就先掩蓋起來。","quality":0.649},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:55:51.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:09.395000+08:00","text":"我不相信對這件事情這三大股東會不知情，為什麼？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:09.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:15.020000+08:00","text":"因為中聯的董事長其實就是這三家其中一家的法人代表，所以他們怎麼會不知道！","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:15.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:37.382000+08:00","text":"本來他採購的是長期比較穩定的美國豆，這個採購量這麼大，然後是跨國運送又涉及期貨契約，你卻去買比較便宜的、烘烤的、煙燻的巴西豆。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:37.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:39.784000+08:00","text":"我並不是說巴西豆不能買，我的意思是說你要從美國豆轉換成巴西豆的時候，第一個就有價差的問題，這是誰做決策的？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:39.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:40.325000+08:00","text":"哪有可能三大股東都不知道這樣的決策？","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:52.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:56:54.601000+08:00","text":"中聯的董事長本身就是三大股東其中一家的法人代表啊！","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:56:55.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:08.749000+08:00","text":"次長，我覺得這個問題非常嚴重的地方就是已經在全臺流竄，據我們所知，現在的回收率只有個位數，這是多可怕的一件事情啊！","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:09.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:12.871000+08:00","text":"我認為這件事情涉及到集體的隱匿。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:17.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.124000+08:00","text":"司長，如果在你當檢察長的時候發生這件事情，你覺得不用把負責人叫來問嗎？","quality":0.406},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.244000+08:00","text":"不用把廠長找來問一問嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.385000+08:00","text":"不用把品管人員找來問一問嗎？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.725000+08:00","text":"不用去查全國各縣市分裝廠的配貨發送了多少嗎？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:18.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:19.305000+08:00","text":"如果是你們各地檢署在偵辦，你們早就全部都衝進去了！","quality":0.478},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:19.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:47.241000+08:00","text":"對於這件事情，我認為你們法務部的腳步要加快，因為這是涉及全國人民食安的問題，這並不是只有他們工廠的問題，這些產品是到處流竄，也會進到各個家庭、進到學校裡面、進到各個夜市裡面，每一個人都中招啊！","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:48.101000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:48.962000+08:00","text":"消費者會問這一次政府的角色到底是什麼，你們做給人家看嘛！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:49.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:49.022000+08:00","text":"就是這麼簡單嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:49.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:50.122000+08:00","text":"你不要以為說因為福懋、福壽、泰山是跟中聯買的，所以好像好可憐。","quality":0.407},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:50.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:50.122000+08:00","text":"見鬼了！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:57:50.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:57:50.903000+08:00","text":"他們全部都是共犯啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:58:14.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:58:24.970000+08:00","text":"他們全部都是加害者，對消費者來講，這次他們就是加害者，他們必須要給全體國人一個交代，次長、司長，你們的看法是怎麼樣？","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:58:25.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:58:37.740000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為食安牽涉到國人的身體健康，絕對不容許受到任何的侵害，所以法務部的態度跟委員的態度是一樣的，就是我們對這件事情會高度的重視。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:58:37.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:58:48.608000+08:00","text":"我們在高檢署有成立打擊民生犯罪平臺，各地檢署也有打擊民生犯罪平臺，這一次的狀況也不單單只是臺中地檢署在偵辦，臺中地檢署已經立即成立了……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:58:48.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:58:49.929000+08:00","text":"你們今天才剛開始的。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:58:50.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:04.693000+08:00","text":"在7月3號有分案了，現在也開了專案會議，針對委員剛剛提到的油品範圍，看怎麼樣讓食安團隊來儘速的確認範圍，然後回收下架。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:05.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:12.315000+08:00","text":"另外一個就是剛剛提到的是不是有隱匿文書的部分，對這個部分檢察機關也會去進行調查……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:13.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:16.056000+08:00","text":"次長，法務部現在的責任是什麼？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:16.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:30.331000+08:00","text":"在4月4號南僑跟中聯講，這三大股東不可能不知道，三大股東裡面其中一個的法人代表就是董事長，其他人都是董監事，涉及到大額採購的變換，產地的變換涉及到期貨合約，所以大股東不可能不知道這種大額的，你知不知道？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:38.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:39.685000+08:00","text":"假設我是中聯油脂的一個廠長，在南僑來跟我講了以後，我這個廠長真的會都不講嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:39.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:39.965000+08:00","text":"在這3個月到底發生了什麼事？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:39.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T11:59:40.206000+08:00","text":"這個是欺騙臺灣社會，是在集體隱匿耶！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T11:59:58.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:00:26.887000+08:00","text":"對臺灣的消費者來講，他們就是加害者，我今天沒有時間去講到被害者保護的問題，但是對於這個議題，我認為要有一個更強硬的手段，不能說因為他們是大廠商就不對抗他們，你看他們為了自己的利益殘害2,300萬人的健康，你知道那就等於在對賭嗎？","quality":0.686},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:00:26.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:00:27.127000+08:00","text":"是用我們的健康在對賭耶！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:00:27.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:00:28.608000+08:00","text":"我都很懷疑，他們在4月4號知道以後，假設庫存還有很多的話，為什麼要拖3個月的時間？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:00:28.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:00:43.255000+08:00","text":"我看不只是因為要開股東大會改選董監事的問題，還涉及到因為損失太大，所以先把這些貨給銷掉，很合理啊！","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:00:43.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:09.785000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣子的話，這邊全部都是無良的廠商，我在司法及法制委員會從來不針對個案去講話，但是這是涉及到臺灣全體2,300萬人身體健康跟生命的問題，一級致癌物超標4倍，是最嚴重的，這要怎麼辦？","quality":0.802},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:11.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:12.265000+08:00","text":"以政府的立場要怎麼辦？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:13.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:15.166000+08:00","text":"像法務部，我認為你們本來就應該要強硬啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:15.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:25.750000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們對這件事情一定會採取從速、從嚴的角度，對個案的部分，我們已經請高檢署還有各地檢署針對這個部分去處理。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:26.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:36.513000+08:00","text":"針對剛剛所提到的確認範圍、文書隱匿以及有沒有刑事責任或相關的行政責任等部分，食安團隊會積極去做……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:36.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:01:39.174000+08:00","text":"我們不預設立場，我們在立法院從來就不預設立場，但是問題就是發生了這麼嚴重的食安事件，針對這些不合理的狀況，你們法務部就必須要站在消費者背後，你們必須要當消費者的後盾，這樣才對啊！","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:01:55.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:02.625000+08:00","text":"應該要求這些業者，你們要儘速查明他們在這3個月的時間到底在幹什麼，你要給國人一個交代啊！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:02.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:14.792000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，今天早上臺中地檢署也發了新聞稿，就是把他們目前可以跟社會大眾講的部分都已經寫在新聞稿上，我在會後也把這份新聞稿立刻傳給……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:14.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:15.833000+08:00","text":"我們也不要限期，次長，我覺得我在這個地方的質詢很合理，就這個來講的話，民眾有知的權利嘛！","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:15.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:16.133000+08:00","text":"他們在這3個月到底在幹什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:16.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:16.894000+08:00","text":"為什麼會把這個訊息掩蓋起來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:16.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:02:40.794000+08:00","text":"到底發生了什麼事，讓臺灣2,300萬人陷入這麼嚴重、可能致癌的食安危機，真的是不尋常啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:02:42.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:02.353000+08:00","text":"哪有整個契約變更從美國豆改成巴西豆，這是你的自由，你可以講出很多的理由，但是這三大股東並不是路人甲，他們也不是受害者，中聯的董事長就是三大股東的法人代表之一，也都有派駐董監事，發生這麼重大的變更，他們不可能不知情。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:03.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:15.682000+08:00","text":"然後在南僑跟中聯示警以後，代表三大股東全部都知道，既然全部都知道，為什麼在4月知道卻一直到6月底才要來通報？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:15.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:25.470000+08:00","text":"按照食安法的規定，你本來在知道以後就要停止生產跟回收，可是都沒有，甚至還繼續生產、繼續賣，可惡的地方就是在這裡啊！","quality":0.804},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:26.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:37.959000+08:00","text":"所以我要求法務部必須要當消費者的後盾，我也不對你定期限，就是儘速給消費者、給全國人民一個交代，好不好？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:37.959000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:38.959000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:37.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:38.240000+08:00","text":"這個合理嘛！","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:39.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:44.925000+08:00","text":"我也不是要求你們針對個案，總是要去把事情查清楚，因為這是涉及民眾健康權益的問題嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:45.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.307000+08:00","text":"這一題就做給大家看一下，好不好？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"馮次長成","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.327000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.327000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:48.628000+08:00","text":"謝謝莊召委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-06T12:03:49.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-06T12:03:51.699429+08:00","text":"接下來有請范雲委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時51分）謝謝主席，有請法務部馮成次長、檢察司張司長。"],["主席：請馮次長跟張司長。"],["馮次長成：召委好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我想要來就教次長跟司長，對於中聯油脂這件事情，我覺得裡面有貓膩，我覺得有非常奇怪的地方。中聯油脂的油檢出會讓臺灣民眾的健康遭受到嚴重損害的一級致癌物「苯駢芘」，很專業的一個名詞，這是翻譯過來的。我為什麼覺得裡面有貓膩的地方，就是在4月4號南僑發現了以後，就向供應商示警說致癌物「苯駢芘」出現超標，超過4倍，4月4號就已經知道了，但你去看中聯油脂，現在看起來好像大家都在講中聯油脂，哪是中聯油脂，中聯油脂其實就是福懋、福壽、泰山這幾家，每家就是33.3%、各占三分之一，他們全部都是大股東啊，所以不是中聯，而是這三家，中聯只是個殼子，這三家其實才是真正的當事人啊！好了，問題來了，為什麼到6月底、6月30號這件事情才被我們食藥署揭露出來？我今天也特別跟你們部長打了個電話，這個不是只有臺中地檢署要去辦，你們應該要在高檢署有一個全國查緝的平臺，因為畢竟中聯在各個縣市裡面還是有工廠，彰化也好、高雄也好，甚至於發貨也有一些倉庫嘛。這個問題我覺得有個非常可惡的地方是集體隱匿、集體造假，為什麼我這樣講？按照我們的食品安全衛生管理法第七條的規定，食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞時，第一個事情就是要停止製造，南僑在4月4號向你們示警說工廠生產的東西超標4倍，有致癌的風險，那為什麼到6月30號政府才知道？在這段將近3個月的時間，中聯還有這三家業者在幹什麼？你們不覺得奇怪嗎？司長，你們也都是當過檢察長的人，這個案子如果到你們手上的話，以我這個有30年律師經驗的人來看，我就知道不尋常，第一個，這三家根本就不是被害者，這三家跟中聯一樣都是加害者，理論上，任何一家工廠知道了，第一件事情一定是停止製造，一定會覺得：夭壽喔！嚴重了！為什麼超過4倍？然後就要停止製造；第二個就是要趕快去回收產品。其實第一件要做的事情是要趕快通報，這是他的義務，這是在我們食安法裡面規定得非常清楚的，要趕快去回收啊！可是全部都沒有做，在4月份南僑跟你說有異常、超標4倍，一直到6月30號才通報，你們不覺得很奇怪嗎？我為什麼說光臺中地檢署偵辦還不夠？因為這涉及到很多事情，要到各個倉庫、各個分廠查，因為是從大型倉儲去配送，所以要再查下去。我今天早上一直在想一個問題，我覺得很奇怪，哪有可能將近3個月的時間這些董事會的人全部都不知道？我覺得很奇怪，後來我才想通了是為什麼，因為是在6月24號改選董監事，當然會擔心這個訊息會不會影響到董監事的改選，所以就先掩蓋起來。我不相信對這件事情這三大股東會不知情，為什麼？因為中聯的董事長其實就是這三家其中一家的法人代表，所以他們怎麼會不知道！本來他採購的是長期比較穩定的美國豆，這個採購量這麼大，然後是跨國運送又涉及期貨契約，你卻去買比較便宜的、烘烤的、煙燻的巴西豆。我並不是說巴西豆不能買，我的意思是說你要從美國豆轉換成巴西豆的時候，第一個就有價差的問題，這是誰做決策的？哪有可能三大股東都不知道這樣的決策？中聯的董事長本身就是三大股東其中一家的法人代表啊！","次長，我覺得這個問題非常嚴重的地方就是已經在全臺流竄，據我們所知，現在的回收率只有個位數，這是多可怕的一件事情啊！我認為這件事情涉及到集體的隱匿。司長，如果在你當檢察長的時候發生這件事情，你覺得不用把負責人叫來問嗎？不用把廠長找來問一問嗎？不用把品管人員找來問一問嗎？不用去查全國各縣市分裝廠的配貨發送了多少嗎？如果是你們各地檢署在偵辦，你們早就全部都衝進去了！對於這件事情，我認為你們法務部的腳步要加快，因為這是涉及全國人民食安的問題，這並不是只有他們工廠的問題，這些產品是到處流竄，也會進到各個家庭、進到學校裡面、進到各個夜市裡面，每一個人都中招啊！消費者會問這一次政府的角色到底是什麼，你們做給人家看嘛！就是這麼簡單嘛！你不要以為說因為福懋、福壽、泰山是跟中聯買的，所以好像好可憐。見鬼了！他們全部都是共犯啦！他們全部都是加害者，對消費者來講，這次他們就是加害者，他們必須要給全體國人一個交代，次長、司長，你們的看法是怎麼樣？"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，因為食安牽涉到國人的身體健康，絕對不容許受到任何的侵害，所以法務部的態度跟委員的態度是一樣的，就是我們對這件事情會高度的重視。我們在高檢署有成立打擊民生犯罪平臺，各地檢署也有打擊民生犯罪平臺，這一次的狀況也不單單只是臺中地檢署在偵辦，臺中地檢署已經立即成立了……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們今天才剛開始的。"],["馮次長成：在7月3號有分案了，現在也開了專案會議，針對委員剛剛提到的油品範圍，看怎麼樣讓食安團隊來儘速的確認範圍，然後回收下架。另外一個就是剛剛提到的是不是有隱匿文書的部分，對這個部分檢察機關也會去進行調查……"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，法務部現在的責任是什麼？在4月4號南僑跟中聯講，這三大股東不可能不知道，三大股東裡面其中一個的法人代表就是董事長，其他人都是董監事，涉及到大額採購的變換，產地的變換涉及到期貨合約，所以大股東不可能不知道這種大額的，你知不知道？假設我是中聯油脂的一個廠長，在南僑來跟我講了以後，我這個廠長真的會都不講嗎？在這3個月到底發生了什麼事？這個是欺騙臺灣社會，是在集體隱匿耶！對臺灣的消費者來講，他們就是加害者，我今天沒有時間去講到被害者保護的問題，但是對於這個議題，我認為要有一個更強硬的手段，不能說因為他們是大廠商就不對抗他們，你看他們為了自己的利益殘害2,300萬人的健康，你知道那就等於在對賭嗎？是用我們的健康在對賭耶！我都很懷疑，他們在4月4號知道以後，假設庫存還有很多的話，為什麼要拖3個月的時間？我看不只是因為要開股東大會改選董監事的問題，還涉及到因為損失太大，所以先把這些貨給銷掉，很合理啊！如果是這樣子的話，這邊全部都是無良的廠商，我在司法及法制委員會從來不針對個案去講話，但是這是涉及到臺灣全體2,300萬人身體健康跟生命的問題，一級致癌物超標4倍，是最嚴重的，這要怎麼辦？以政府的立場要怎麼辦？像法務部，我認為你們本來就應該要強硬啊！"],["馮次長成：跟委員報告，我們對這件事情一定會採取從速、從嚴的角度，對個案的部分，我們已經請高檢署還有各地檢署針對這個部分去處理。針對剛剛所提到的確認範圍、文書隱匿以及有沒有刑事責任或相關的行政責任等部分，食安團隊會積極去做……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們不預設立場，我們在立法院從來就不預設立場，但是問題就是發生了這麼嚴重的食安事件，針對這些不合理的狀況，你們法務部就必須要站在消費者背後，你們必須要當消費者的後盾，這樣才對啊！應該要求這些業者，你們要儘速查明他們在這3個月的時間到底在幹什麼，你要給國人一個交代啊！"],["馮次長成：是，跟委員報告，今天早上臺中地檢署也發了新聞稿，就是把他們目前可以跟社會大眾講的部分都已經寫在新聞稿上，我在會後也把這份新聞稿立刻傳給……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我們也不要限期，次長，我覺得我在這個地方的質詢很合理，就這個來講的話，民眾有知的權利嘛！他們在這3個月到底在幹什麼？為什麼會把這個訊息掩蓋起來？到底發生了什麼事，讓臺灣2,300萬人陷入這麼嚴重、可能致癌的食安危機，真的是不尋常啦！哪有整個契約變更從美國豆改成巴西豆，這是你的自由，你可以講出很多的理由，但是這三大股東並不是路人甲，他們也不是受害者，中聯的董事長就是三大股東的法人代表之一，也都有派駐董監事，發生這麼重大的變更，他們不可能不知情。然後在南僑跟中聯示警以後，代表三大股東全部都知道，既然全部都知道，為什麼在4月知道卻一直到6月底才要來通報？按照食安法的規定，你本來在知道以後就要停止生產跟回收，可是都沒有，甚至還繼續生產、繼續賣，可惡的地方就是在這裡啊！所以我要求法務部必須要當消費者的後盾，我也不對你定期限，就是儘速給消費者、給全國人民一個交代，好不好？"],["馮次長成：沒問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個合理嘛！我也不是要求你們針對個案，總是要去把事情查清楚，因為這是涉及民眾健康權益的問題嘛！這一題就做給大家看一下，好不好？"],["馮次長成：好，謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊召委。","接下來有請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":128,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-23","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","吳宗憲","沈發惠","賴士葆","陳冠廷","林倩綺","許宇甄","林沛祥","張雅琳","莊瑞雄","范雲","蔡其昌","傅崐萁"],"page_start":57,"meetingDate":["2026-07-06"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第23次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、財團法人法律扶助基金會、財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會針對\n「犯罪被害人訴訟參與制度之現況、檢討與精進」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}