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有請鄭部長還有蔣正署 林署長好 請部長還有署長委員早兩位署長早本席接獲很多這個台南監獄的基層同仁的存情所以我今天就是來幫他們討公道那請問部長 你知道台南監獄現在收容多少人嗎那過去五年來增加了百分之多少"},{"start":34.657,"end":60.096,"text":"請問部長或署長知道嗎三千五百如果一直沒有資料 我等一下也有資料目前一直維持在三千多人請你大聲一點 謝謝不好意思各位媒體報告 目前都維持在三千多人那最現實的是三千五百這樣增加多少 就是這五年增加增加率增加多少增加了 這五年的增加率喔這五年喔 那沒關係"},{"start":61.777,"end":80.566,"text":"會涉及到那個COVID-19那個時間會急劇的減少那等一下我有一些數字我再跟你們繼續討論那我再問今年全國的矯正機關平均加班時數為何那台南監獄員工的加班時數多少你們有沒有資料跟委員報告大概平均加班時數都四十幾個小時"},{"start":81.799,"end":100.013,"text":"那台南監獄應該也是在這樣的一個擴大那台南監獄你認為也是跟全國平均加班時數是一樣的應該他的排名上 我們都有分析排名他還不是屬於名列前面好那我們等一下來看數字那請問你 現在缺額究竟有多嚴重這個台南的缺額你知道嗎台南監獄缺額或是全國的缺額"},{"start":107.355,"end":114.658,"text":"全國的缺額是有774名那南京的缺額的話這個資料沒有掌握到我們現在看下一張投影片那就請兩位首長看 數據會說話台南監獄受刑人從110年1816人增加到114年3133人所以過去5年增加了72.5%"},{"start":133.765,"end":152.513,"text":"但是五年來監所管理人員的人數沒有增加哦反而減少所以簡單的說管理工作量就越來越大那右邊是這個加班時數我們來看台南監獄同仁的加班時數今年三月平均高達五十個小時你如果說四十幾天前後給你看是平均而且中位數"},{"start":153.593,"end":172.847,"text":"是54個小時中位數的意思是代表有一半的人是超過54小時的加班時間那這個數字是高於整體的矯正機關的加班時數那現在台南監獄卸務人員的缺額是27個人那什麼時候才會補齊呢剛剛你說全台灣大概"},{"start":174.348,"end":193.354,"text":"700多人 774那什麼社會補給 可不可以請你一併回答跟著委員報告的話 因為這個缺額都是在我們控管當中那7月底的話 我們有300多位的那個新考上送人 搜尋完會補下去那剩下的話 他們可以請一些植物代理人來遞補這些人力的一個空缺"},{"start":194.278,"end":212.476,"text":"就是說 署長 請不要等到基層過牢倒下去了我們知道我們都有在分析 我們都有在掌控你說補300多人 那事實上還是缺了700多人嘛400多人他們可以請職務代理人那是不是會請職代當然職代我們也要看看 職代是不能佔率太高嘛"},{"start":213.177,"end":226.535,"text":"正式緣合是比較重要的那台南監獄現在管理員是176人那缺了27人但我要請你看的是下面的這些情況我直接問署長好了署長你認為合理的借戶比"},{"start":227.423,"end":252.374,"text":"是多少我們來看看法務部的這個矯正署109年的委託研究報告那是你委託研究報告合理的介護比一公斤應該降到1比6到1比8那我們看看鄰近國家就是參考鄰近國家嘛這是政府最愛做的也是很合理的右邊鄰近國家當然美國是台灣最友好的國家1比4.5那日本是1比2"},{"start":255.089,"end":268.719,"text":"韓國是1比3但是去年北索大約是1比9.5請兩位首長先把這件事放在心上你們自己的研究報告是1比6到1比8是合理的"},{"start":270.421,"end":274.203,"text":"如果我看114年債捐人數,台南監獄收容了剛剛講的3133人日勤管理員有93人,排班制有154人,加起來是247人這樣算下來台南監獄的借戶比高達1比12.7,就是1比13"},{"start":294.266,"end":306.712,"text":"那台南監獄管理員反映,他晚上甚至一個人要管300多個受刑人所以我請問署長,一個人要看管將近13個受刑人這符合你們的研究報告嗎?跟委員報告,這個是一直以來我們都有研究出這樣的一個情形"},{"start":314.608,"end":326.994,"text":"那其實這個國家的國情、民情、整體行政策的演變的話有時候也是我們都是要繼續跟他因應的國情、民情你們有反應過嗎?你們有處理嗎?有正視這個問題嗎?我下來讓你繼續看為什麼他們要澄清他們的苦他們所受的辛苦你根據這個扶勤實施辦法監鎖每月加班超過60小時"},{"start":341.081,"end":347.565,"text":"就必須照冊呈報嘛 到法務部來那 部長 我在問你 你有看過這個監獄照冊呈報的資料嗎因為他們超過就要報告給法務部啊"},{"start":353.582,"end":363.566,"text":"這個是人事單位會公關沒關係 部長沒有看到但是我還是有資料就是說因為超過60小時 部長您先記一下超過60小時是要呈報的那根據我掌握的內部資訊台南監獄本來提報的這個所謂的 有個名詞叫機動機動備勤實施 就是待命他必須在當地 就是在機關裡面待命不可以離開 大約是48到52小時"},{"start":381.033,"end":407.715,"text":"但是後來卻莫名其妙被砍到43小時請你看我這張圖表中間那個地方before就之前這個待命大概48到52小時那現在變成43小時為什麼是43這很奧妙喔因為你加上假日被call回來右邊有個8加8他們現在常態是平均被叫回來假日兩次加班是16小時43加16是多少可以加了吧"},{"start":408.456,"end":409.239,"text":"59小時剛好躲過6小時要上報的門檻"},{"start":415.031,"end":438.037,"text":"就可以不用上法務部 不然這樣合理我想我非常對我們那個管理人員的這些的加班這部分我們會關心他那個過勞的一個問題那的確是我們是希望能夠做一些的改善不合理我們想辦法"},{"start":439.717,"end":443.64,"text":"從今年三月開始那個基層反應他們休假被扣回來你想想一個月不過四個週末啊他被扣回來加班兩次是常態甚至常常三次"},{"start":451.377,"end":471.468,"text":"而且連24小時班都要來扛喔等於台南就醫目前我也知道可能是人力不夠嘛他用這個壓低背勤時數就是壓低前半段以便於後半段來補的時候來規避6小時的門檻這真的是我們對待矯正機關基層的態度嗎署長你要不要去了解一下"},{"start":473.988,"end":498.255,"text":"你還在看那個表嘛 前一頁那個表就是這個表之前是48到52嘛那你被叫回來的不用呈報上去大概就一到兩次頂多那你現在把這個前面壓到43表示你後面還背著至少兩次你都還不用往下報這是那個台南看守區台南監獄台南監獄跟看守區這是台南監獄台南監獄那你們要不要去了解一下"},{"start":499.135,"end":514.007,"text":"這個問題我們才了解好 謝謝你們給我說你們不是這樣這是私人的心聲就我掌握資訊才能監索目前的外溢管理包括帶受刑人去就醫因為以前受療人少所以平均一個早上是三個人出去就醫"},{"start":515.228,"end":539.29,"text":"那一個人要有兩個人陪對不對 一組嘛 那就要六個人可是現在收容人變多啊 看病也會增加啊所以他早上大概五到六個受診人就醫 但就需要十到十二個人出去嘛那這個還只是說他是固定的 要排就診嘛 回去就診那如果是臨時生病呢 那人數就需要更多啊所以台南監獄就怎麼做呢 他就橫行就把管理員回來加班啊"},{"start":540.151,"end":553.554,"text":"甚至就變成這個樣子啊那如果說受刑人數暴增就是就醫要暴增 借護人力吃緊的話那就把他們叫回來那你們覺得這樣合理嗎 你要不要去了解一下"},{"start":555.655,"end":568.064,"text":"來跟有人報告關於那個介護外醫的情形目前的話我們也正在做一個更嚴謹的一個管控因為我們希望跟醫院那邊有更多的合作不要說說介護外醫現在就是事實上他是要驚動這麼多人數我們希望說在境內的看診的話科別的話更多讓我們少一點介護外醫這個跟我們跟健保的合作也會做更多的商量但是我今天就是把他們幾個訴求我希望你們現在如果能夠處理的"},{"start":579.051,"end":602.693,"text":"就當場給我一個初步的承諾第一個補足人力缺口因為長期而言正式員還是必須增加的剛剛這個也許你們說會有一些值代的部分但是你要開始盤點評估透過值代補充人力的情況因為我剛剛把那麼多數字給你們了那你第一個補足人力缺口這個有問題嗎努力補足人力缺口部長你可以承諾吧"},{"start":603.729,"end":619.08,"text":"想辦法嘛你排出來嘛這個我們再來盤點盤點我們再來做一個規劃來請證這個可以吧第一個訴求很合理第一個訴求很合理第二個基層同仁主張剛剛我特別提到那個待命就是機動背勤實屬它原來是48到52小時"},{"start":622.583,"end":635.912,"text":"然後他們說現在他們感受到是43小時就是為了讓不用去上報那你現在可不可以把這個所謂的待命時間而且是在鎖 在監獄裡面待命時間可不可以再回到之前的48到52小時"},{"start":639.125,"end":644.128,"text":"跟委員報告會 這個我們來瞭解這也可以你去瞭解 因為基層的感受就是這樣那為什麼 我也不怪台南監獄他們的處理人不夠 他就把說 當然今天不要上報可是不要上報部長 您要特別注意一件事當下面人因為擔心你們的壓力或是你們也許不高興等等他不上報 這個是一個不往上呈報所以他躲過這個60個小時是一個很大的問題"},{"start":667.901,"end":693.046,"text":"好嗎 這個有關這個待命的時間 署長你可以處理一下嗎 研究一下嗎可以 我們會再來做第三個 是不是保障基層休假權益你知道嗎 他們好客氣喔他們說是不是一個月 叫回兩次頂多吧他說希望不要叫回第三次喔 這個要求好卑微啊把基層的休息時間還給他們嘛把跟家人在一起的時間還給他們嘛 可以嗎不要超過兩次 就說兩次他們說不要到三次 可以嗎"},{"start":698.246,"end":703.931,"text":"跟維報可以 我們來做一個調整合理嘛 對不對 我們將心比心合理嘛你一個月要被叫回來 對不對 就基層了基層了 還不是什麼部長 那個政務官耶是是是可以嗎 這點也可以喔好 是是 那第四個他們建議一個方法蠻具體的彈性調整日間作業如果碰到授權人要就醫 人數暴增 接觸人力就不夠嘛這個也沒辦法 要看病嘛 那是不是可以授權機關這樣"},{"start":724.549,"end":740.226,"text":"暫時就是說彈性暫停日間工廠作業因為本來有個日間工廠在作業那是不是讓日勤人員他能夠去支援外衣的勤務而不是動不動就把無死盡的把外面把休假的人扣回來支援嘛這個方法行嗎"},{"start":741.206,"end":763.416,"text":"跟委員報告 目前這樣的情形我們都已經有在做了但是他們還在反映嘛 所以說可見還在發生啊那我們再來瞭解 如果臨時性有這樣的需求的話我們是可以把那個工廠的開封你覺得這樣合理嗎 因為就醫還是要緊的嘛就醫還是要緊的 工廠生產就是說在次序上就醫還是重要的嘛那你不要動不動就到廠做 實務上我們都有這樣在做"},{"start":764.096,"end":779.244,"text":"那署長那這件事可以嗎彈性調整這間作業那我這樣投影片上這4點你都可以好好去面對然後處理好那這個就是說我本來希望說你會回到我辦公室說明然後兩週兩週內可以稍微整理一下嗎兩週內OK吧"},{"start":780.925,"end":800.988,"text":"那不好意思 前陣子 台北看守所發生兩個收容人倒地受醫就是說36歲的年輕人死亡了那70歲那一位有恢復生命跡象那社會很關注啦那不管是不是北鎖他後來自己說明說個人身體因素 慢性病但是我想如果去因應這個極端氣候酷暑難耐的情況"},{"start":802.55,"end":826.989,"text":"沒有空調啊這是全民要面對的問題那特別是我會關心這個監所看守所的公衛條件其實根據你看看這兩個公約公正公約還有聯合國受刑人處於最低限度的標準規範他都有提到空間空間照明啊通風都要被考量的可是實際狀況你看右邊右邊那張超收的狀況"},{"start":828.519,"end":851.64,"text":"超收部長您看一下右邊這個圖超收的狀況你超收就會影響你原來的公衛條件你這個公衛條件會被壓縮會被受限本來這件事都要注意環境就是說你是要關他給剝奪他自由但你並不是用惡劣的環境讓他生病或是讓他中暑死亡"},{"start":852.421,"end":863.366,"text":"就是最近發生的例子那個不是中暑它是個人的那個身體的因素但是沒有我知道北索的這個是這樣的所以你是不是同意部長你是不是同意現在的監所環境還沒有辦法完全保障所有人的健康權這是個健康權就是因為超收的一個問題因為我們這是大力的查緝的一個部門因為他做壞事我就不要他的健康權這個我們非常重視"},{"start":880.894,"end":888.001,"text":"那另外比方說像那個招募看守所因為就是因為新的看守所已經啟用了那現在是用救手的一個資料"},{"start":889.554,"end":915.787,"text":"最後一個方法就是法務部可被同意訂定監鎖熱傷害醫療救護跟用藥指引那個新聞稿中我有看到北索提出了幾項措施它是有朝努力的方向去做不過在民團召開記者會當中我覺得有一點要特別處理的就是有關這個加強通風跟全面開啟它用全面開啟風扇抽風機的方法但是監鎖管理小組的理事長叫鄭榮化醫師"},{"start":918.649,"end":942.367,"text":"鄭醫師說 中暑的原因 你剛剛說那個人不是中暑我先予以尊重 但是那個酷暑這個天氣的變化造成這個問題大家也都知道 心知肚明他說中暑原因在於核心體溫過高單純增加風扇或空氣流動並不能真正降溫在極端高溫下甚至可能加速脫水的風險所以我知道就是好意 大家說不然我幫你通通風"},{"start":943.268,"end":961.547,"text":"但是是不是要仰賴以有醫療背景的專業例如說法務部可不可以 矯正署可不可以跟衛福部合作訂一個就是說 監鎖熱傷害醫療救護跟用藥指引 這個有問題嗎合作 然後寫一個指引因為我們是要關他 不是要把他熱死可以嗎"},{"start":963.169,"end":990.352,"text":"這有問題嗎沒有問題跟委員報告目前我們各機關都很注重這個問題而且跟我們所屬的醫療機構的醫師都有在配合都有在瞭解雖然有這樣的情況的話那我剛剛就特別講說好心做了一些動作是OK但是醫師說這個方法不見得是有利的我剛剛也舉例啦有名有姓啊所以這個那你三個月訂個指引好嗎可以嗎現在天氣可能一半年都在大熱天啊都快40度啊"},{"start":990.672,"end":1009.972,"text":"是是是可以嗎可以加上你剛剛有承諾我的那幾點其實平常我們都有在做了我們再把它整理一下那這樣算一下幫忙嘛是是是讓衛福部來幫忙做把這個指引建立起來好好剛剛你承諾那幾個點那我也想有一些書面報告然後這個三個月是不是把這個指引建立下來這個應該是一個人道的做法嘛好嗎謝謝兩位首長謝謝謝謝主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:28.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:28.920000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.560000+08:00","text":"有請鄭部長及矯正署林署長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.740000+08:00","text":"請部長及署長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.760000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.920000+08:00","text":"兩位首長早。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:29.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:30.820000+08:00","text":"本席接獲很多臺南監獄基層同仁的陳情，所以我今天就是來幫他們討公道。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:30.860000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:32.461000+08:00","text":"請問部長，你知道臺南監獄現在收容多少人嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:32.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:05:33.421000+08:00","text":"過去5年來增加了百分之多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:05:58.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:02.620000+08:00","text":"請問部長或署長知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:02.620000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:04.862000+08:00","text":"目前3,500人……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:04.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:08.064000+08:00","text":"如果一時沒有資料，我等一下也有資料。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:08.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:09.685000+08:00","text":"目前一直維持在三千多人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:10.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:10.886000+08:00","text":"請你大聲一點，謝謝！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:10.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:12.007000+08:00","text":"不好意思！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:12.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:15.530000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，目前都維持在三千多人，最新資料是3,500人。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:17.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:17.651000+08:00","text":"這樣增加多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:17.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:20.574000+08:00","text":"就是這5年的增加率，增加多少？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:22.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:29.159000+08:00","text":"這5年的增加率，因為這會涉及到COVID-19那個時間，數字會急遽地減少。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:29.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:32.640000+08:00","text":"好，等一下我有一些數字，再跟你們繼續討論。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:36.782000+08:00","text":"我再問，今年全國的矯正機關平均加班時數為何？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:37.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:39.664000+08:00","text":"臺南監獄員工的加班時數多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:39.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:41.564000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:41.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:48.822000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，大概平均加班時數都是四十幾個小時，臺南監獄應該也是在這樣的quota。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:50.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:54.206000+08:00","text":"好，所以你認為臺南監獄也是跟全國平均加班時數是一樣的？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:54.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:06:59.790000+08:00","text":"應該它的排名上……我們都有分析排名，它還不是屬於名列前茅的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:06:59.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:01.171000+08:00","text":"好，那我們等一下來看數字。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:01.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:04.013000+08:00","text":"請問現在臺南監獄的缺額或是全國的缺額究竟有多嚴重，你知道嗎？","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:11.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:12.956000+08:00","text":"全國的缺額是774名。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:13.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:14.136000+08:00","text":"那臺南監獄的部分呢？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:14.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:15.297000+08:00","text":"南監缺額的話，這個資料我就沒有掌握到。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:16.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:16.837000+08:00","text":"沒關係，那就請兩位首長看下一張投影片，數據會說話。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:16.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:07:45.008000+08:00","text":"臺南監獄受刑人數從110年的1,816人增加到114年的3,133人，表示過去5年增加了72.5%，但是5年來監所管理人員人數卻沒有增加，反而減少，簡單地說就是管理工作量越來越大。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:07:46.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:09.422000+08:00","text":"右邊是加班時數，我們來看臺南監獄同仁的加班時數，今年3月平均高達50小時，你剛才說四十幾個小時，我給你看的是平均，而且中位數是54小時，中位數的意思是代表有一半的人是超過54小時的加班時間，這個數字高於整體矯正機關的加班時數。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:09.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:15.326000+08:00","text":"現在臺南監獄戒護人員的缺額是27人，什麼時候才會補齊呢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:15.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:18.548000+08:00","text":"剛剛你說全臺灣大概欠七百多人。774人。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:19.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:21.829000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會補齊，可不可以請你一併回答？謝謝。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:22.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:37.334000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為缺額都在我們的控管當中，7月底我們有三百多位新考上的人員，他們受訓完後會補下去，剩下的話，他們可以請一些職務代理人來遞補這些人力的空缺。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:39.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:42.462000+08:00","text":"署長，請不要等到基層過勞倒下去了，矯正署才覺得這是個問題……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:42.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:45.986000+08:00","text":"我們知道，我們都有在分析，我們都有在掌控。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:46.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:50.009000+08:00","text":"你說補三百多人，但事實上是缺七百多人嘛！","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:50.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:52.071000+08:00","text":"剩下的四百多人，他們可以請職務代理人來遞補。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:52.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:53.633000+08:00","text":"那是不是會請職代？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:53.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:56.456000+08:00","text":"當然職代我們也要看看，畢竟職代不能占率太高嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:57.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:08:59.280000+08:00","text":"正式員額是比較重要的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:08:59.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:11.723000+08:00","text":"臺南監獄現在管理員是176人，缺了27人，但我要請你看的是下面這些情況，我直接問署長好了，署長，你認為合理的戒護比是多少？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:12.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:22.608000+08:00","text":"我們來看看法務部矯正署109年的委託研究報告，這是你們的委託研究報告，其中提到，合理的戒護比應該降到1比6到1比8之間。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:23.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:28.230000+08:00","text":"我們來參考鄰近國家的狀況，這是政府最愛做的，也是很合理的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:28.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:45.914000+08:00","text":"右圖鄰近國家中，當然美國是臺灣最友好的國家，它是1比4.5，日本是1比2.3，韓國是1比3，但是去年北所大約是1比9.5。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:45.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:52.699000+08:00","text":"請兩位首長先把這件事放在心上，你們自己的研究報告是寫1比6到1比8之間是合理的。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:54.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:56.282000+08:00","text":"再看到114年的在監人數，剛才講臺南監獄收容了3,133人，日勤管理員有93人，排班制有154人，加起來是247人。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:09:56.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:09:58.183000+08:00","text":"你大概還沒算出來，沒關係，我已經算好了，這樣算下來臺南監獄的戒護比高達1比12.7，等於是1比13！","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:18.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:30.031000+08:00","text":"臺南監獄管理員反映，晚上甚至一個人要管三百多個受刑人，所以我請問署長，一個人要看管將近13個受刑人，這符合你們的研究報告嗎？兩倍！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:30.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:30.692000+08:00","text":"一直以來，我們都有研究出這樣的情形。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:30.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:39.008000+08:00","text":"怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:39.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:46.752000+08:00","text":"其實各個國家的國情、民情還有整體刑事政策的演變，有時候都是我們自己要因應的。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:46.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:47.312000+08:00","text":"你說國情、民情，但你們有反映過嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:47.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:47.873000+08:00","text":"你們有處理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:47.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:48.433000+08:00","text":"有正視這個問題嗎？是。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:48.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:10:49.974000+08:00","text":"接下來讓你繼續看，為什麼他們要陳情所受的辛苦？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:10:50.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:07.222000+08:00","text":"根據服勤實施辦法，監所每月加班超過60小時就必須造冊陳報到法務部。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:08.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:09.263000+08:00","text":"部長，我可以問你嗎？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:09.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:10.844000+08:00","text":"你有看過監獄造冊陳報的資料嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:10.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:11.525000+08:00","text":"因為他們超過就要報給法務部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:17.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:19.443000+08:00","text":"這個是人事單位會控管……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:19.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:25.065000+08:00","text":"好，沒關係，部長沒有看到，但我還是有資料，您先記一下，因為超過60小時要陳報。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:25.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:48.076000+08:00","text":"根據我掌握的內部資訊，臺南監獄本來提報……有個名詞叫機動備勤時數，就是待命，他必須在當地、在機關裡面待命，不可以離開，大約是48到52小時，後來卻莫名其妙被砍到43小時。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:48.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:57.944000+08:00","text":"請你看這張圖表中間那個地方，即之前待命大概48到52小時，現在變成43小時，為什麼是43？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:58.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:11:58.825000+08:00","text":"這很奧妙！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:11:59.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:10.895000+08:00","text":"因為加上假日被call回來，右邊有個「8+8」，現在的常態是他們假日平均被叫回來兩次，加班是16小時，43+16是多少？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:11.335000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:11.695000+08:00","text":"這可以加了吧？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:12.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:20.391000+08:00","text":"59小時，剛好躲過要上報的門檻60小時，就可以不用上報法務部。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:22.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:22.452000+08:00","text":"部長，這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:28.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:40.776000+08:00","text":"對管理人員加班的部分，我們會關心過勞的問題，我們的確希望能夠進行一些改善。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:41.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:41.396000+08:00","text":"不合理！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:41.396000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:42.396000+08:00","text":"部長，你就回答我：不合理！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:41.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:42.017000+08:00","text":"既然不合理，我們就想辦法。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:43.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:12:57.258000+08:00","text":"從今年3月開始，基層反映他們休假被call回來，你想想看1個月不過4個周末，他被call回來加班，2次是常態，甚至常常3次，而且連24小時的班都要扛。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:12:59.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:11.305000+08:00","text":"我也知道目前臺南監獄可能是人力不夠，所以用這個方式壓低備勤時數，就是壓低前半段，以便於後半段補的時候，規避60小時的門檻。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:11.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:14.307000+08:00","text":"這真的是你們對待矯正機關基層的態度嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:14.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:15.448000+08:00","text":"署長，你要不要去了解一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:17.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:33.632000+08:00","text":"你剛才看了前一頁那張表，之前是48到52，被叫回來不用陳報上去的，大概頂多就1到2次，你現在把前面壓到43，表示後面備著至少2次都還不用往上報。","quality":0.807},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:33.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:35.373000+08:00","text":"這是臺南看守所？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:35.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:37.574000+08:00","text":"臺南監獄。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:37.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:39.054000+08:00","text":"臺南有臺南監獄、第二監獄跟看守所。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:39.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:42.235000+08:00","text":"這是臺南監獄，你們要不要去了解一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:43.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:43.616000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們來了解。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:44.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:13:48.920000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝你們跟我說你們不是這樣，這是基層的心聲。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:13:48.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:00.810000+08:00","text":"就我掌握的資訊，臺南監所目前外役管理及帶受刑人去就醫的量都增加，因為以前收容人少，平均一個早上是3個人出去就醫，1個人要有2個人陪，對不對？","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:01.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:02.191000+08:00","text":"1組，那就要6個人。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:02.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:14.142000+08:00","text":"可是現在收容人變多，看病也會增加，所以早上大概5到6個受刑人就醫，那就需要10到12個人出去，這還只是固定安排回診。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:15.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:20.388000+08:00","text":"如果加上臨時生病的，人數就需要更多，所以臺南監獄就怎麼做呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:20.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:25.373000+08:00","text":"他就常常call管理員回來加班，現在就變成這個樣子。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:27.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:36.652000+08:00","text":"如果受刑人就醫人數暴增，戒護人力吃緊的話，就把他們叫回來，你們覺得這樣合理嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:36.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:37.534000+08:00","text":"你要不要去了解一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:40.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:47.941000+08:00","text":"關於戒護外醫的情形，目前我們也正在做跟員警的管控，因為我們希望跟醫院有更多的合作，不要那麼多都得戒護外醫。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:47.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:48.241000+08:00","text":"該看病就得看病，現在是事實上就要出動這麼多人數。","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:48.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:14:50.563000+08:00","text":"我們希望監內看診的科別能夠更多，讓我們少一點戒護外醫，我們跟健保的合作需要有更多的商量。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:14:50.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:06.474000+08:00","text":"我今天就是幫他們傳達幾個訴求，我希望你們現在就能夠處理的，當場給我初步的承諾。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:06.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:11.199000+08:00","text":"第一個、補足人力缺口，長期而言，正式員額還是必須增加的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:12.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:18.706000+08:00","text":"剛剛你說也許會有一些職代，但是你們要開始盤點，評估透過職代補充人力的情況。","quality":0.853},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:18.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:24.091000+08:00","text":"因為我剛剛把那麼多數字給你們了，第一個、補足人力缺口，有問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:24.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:26.673000+08:00","text":"努力補足人力缺口，部長可以承諾吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:27.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:29.771000+08:00","text":"你想辦法排出來！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:29.771000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:30.771000+08:00","text":"這個預算不會減、不會砍。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:30.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:35.295000+08:00","text":"我們盤點後，再來規劃請增。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:35.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:35.495000+08:00","text":"這個可以吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:35.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:36.736000+08:00","text":"第一個訴求很合理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:36.736000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:37.736000+08:00","text":"我們來努力。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:37.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:38.057000+08:00","text":"好，第一個訴求很合理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:38.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:52.687000+08:00","text":"第二個、基層同仁主張，剛剛我特別提到的待命，就是機動備勤時數，原來是48到52小時，他們說現在他們感受到改成43小時就是為了不用上報。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:15:52.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:15:59.912000+08:00","text":"你現在可不可以把所謂的待命時間，而且是在監獄裡面的待命時間，可不可以再回到之前的48到52小時？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:03.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:03.745000+08:00","text":"會，這個我們來了解。可以？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:03.745000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:04.745000+08:00","text":"可以，我們再來了解一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:03.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:04.106000+08:00","text":"你去了解，因為基層的感受就是這樣。好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:04.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:08.128000+08:00","text":"我也不怪臺南監獄的處理方式，人不夠，他當然就盡量不要上報，可是部長要特別注意不要上報這件事，當下面的人因為擔心你們的壓力或是你們也許會不高興等等不往上陳報，而躲過60個小時是一個很大的問題！","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:32.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:36.382000+08:00","text":"有關待命的時間，署長可以處理一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:36.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:37.482000+08:00","text":"研究一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:37.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:38.202000+08:00","text":"可以，我們會再來控管。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:39.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:41.623000+08:00","text":"第三個、是不是能保障基層休假權益？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:41.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:42.383000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:42.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:49.144000+08:00","text":"他們好客氣，他們說是不是1個月頂多叫回2次，希望不要叫回第3次？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:50.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:55.886000+08:00","text":"這個要求好卑微，把基層的休息時間還給他們，把跟家人在一起的時間還給他們，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:16:56.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:16:57.046000+08:00","text":"就是2次，他們說不要到3次，可以嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:02.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:03.968000+08:00","text":"可以，我們來了解、調整。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.388000+08:00","text":"合理，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.808000+08:00","text":"我們將心比心，合理嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.808000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:05.808000+08:00","text":"是，調整。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:04.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:05.069000+08:00","text":"1個月要被叫回來2次，對不對？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:05.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:05.969000+08:00","text":"是基層，還不是部長、政務官，可以嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:05.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:06.069000+08:00","text":"這一點也可以？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:06.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:07.069000+08:00","text":"好，我們來了解、調整。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:06.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:31.953000+08:00","text":"第四個，他們建議一個蠻具體的方法──彈性調整日間作業，如果碰到受刑人要就醫的人數暴增，戒護人力就不夠，但要看病也沒辦法，是不是可以授權機關彈性暫停日間工廠作業？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:31.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:44.226000+08:00","text":"因為本來有個日間工廠在作業，是不是讓日勤人員能夠支援外醫勤務，而不是動不動就無止盡地把休假的人call回來支援，這個方法行嗎？","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:46.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:48.567000+08:00","text":"目前這樣的情形我們都已經有在做了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:48.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:51.309000+08:00","text":"但是他們還在反映，所以可見還在發生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:51.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:52.849000+08:00","text":"我們再來了解。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:52.849000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:53.849000+08:00","text":"從加班時數，就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:53.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:57.151000+08:00","text":"如果臨時性有這樣的需求，我們是可以把工廠……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:57.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:58.392000+08:00","text":"你覺得這樣合理嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:58.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:17:59.392000+08:00","text":"合理，這是臨時的調整，是需要的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:17:58.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:06.075000+08:00","text":"因為就醫還是要緊的，在次序上就醫還是重要的，不要動不動工廠生產就照常做。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:06.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:07.396000+08:00","text":"實務上，我們都有這樣在做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:08.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:10.257000+08:00","text":"署長，彈性調整日間作業，這件事可以嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:12.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:15.900000+08:00","text":"我的投影片這四點你都可以好好面對，然後處理？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:15.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:19.022000+08:00","text":"是，我們都來調整、因應，謝謝委員關心。","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:19.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:23.084000+08:00","text":"我本來希望你會後到我辦公室說明，兩週內可以稍微整理一下嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:23.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:23.224000+08:00","text":"兩週內，OK吧？可以。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:25.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:34.836000+08:00","text":"前陣子臺北看守所發生兩個收容人倒地送醫，一個36歲年輕人死亡了，70歲那一位有恢復生命跡象，社會很關注。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:35.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:18:49.572000+08:00","text":"不管是不是北所後來說明的個人身體因素、慢性病，我想要思考如何因應極端氣候酷暑難耐的情況，裡面沒有空調，這是全民要面對的問題。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:18:49.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:08.667000+08:00","text":"我會特別關心監所、看守所的公衛條件，其實是根據這兩個公約，即公政公約及聯合國受刑人處遇最低限度標準規範都有提到，空間、照明、通風都是要被考量的，可是實際狀況是超收。","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:08.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:24.290000+08:00","text":"部長看一下右邊那張圖是超收的狀況，超收就會影響原來的公衛條件，公衛條件會被壓縮、受限，本來環境的這些事情就都要注意。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:26.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:37.502000+08:00","text":"你是要關他、剝奪他的自由，並不該用惡劣的環境讓他生病，甚至中暑、死亡，就是最近發生的例子。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:38.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:41.223000+08:00","text":"不是中暑，他是個人的身體因素，他有慢性病。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:41.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:42.584000+08:00","text":"我知道北所已經說不是這樣。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:43.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:44.785000+08:00","text":"部長，你是不是同意現在的監所環境還沒有辦法完全保障收容人的健康權？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:44.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:45.325000+08:00","text":"這是個健康權。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:45.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:45.985000+08:00","text":"就是因為超收的問題，我們這次大力查緝不法犯罪……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:46.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:47.206000+08:00","text":"好，但你們還是要去面對，不能因為他做壞事就不要他的健康權，對不對？","quality":0.483},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:47.206000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:48.206000+08:00","text":"這個不可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:19:47.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:19:47.366000+08:00","text":"這個我們非常重視！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T09:20:05.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:20:11.981000+08:00","text":"另外，比較超收的部分，像彰化看守所是因為新的看守所已經啟用，現在是用舊所的資料。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:20:14.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:20:19.517000+08:00","text":"部長，解決方法就是，法務部可不可以同意訂定監所熱傷害醫療救護與用藥指引？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:20:20.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:20:25.680000+08:00","text":"在新聞稿中，我有看到北所提出了幾項措施，他有努力朝好的方向去做。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:20:26.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:20:51.476000+08:00","text":"不過在民團召開的記者會當中，我覺得有一點要特別處理的是，有關加強通風是採全面開啟風扇及抽風機的方法，但是監所關注小組的理事長鄭龍驊醫師說中暑的原因……你剛剛說那個人不是中暑，我先予以尊重，但是酷暑、天氣的變化造成這個問題大家都知道，心知肚明。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:20:52.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:04.006000+08:00","text":"他說中暑的原因在於核心體溫過高，單純增加風扇或空氣流動並不能真正降溫，在極端高溫下，甚至可能加速脫水的風險。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:04.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:10.151000+08:00","text":"我知道這是好意，就是幫他們通通風，但是不是要仰賴有醫療背景的專業？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:10.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:13.154000+08:00","text":"例如法務部、矯正署可不可以跟衛福部合作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:14.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:18.280000+08:00","text":"訂一個監所熱傷害醫療救護與用藥指引？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:18.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:19.661000+08:00","text":"這個有問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:19.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:25.547000+08:00","text":"合作訂定一個指引，因為我們是要關他，但不是要把他熱死，可以嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:27.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:28.210000+08:00","text":"這有問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:28.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:37.878000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，跟委員報告，目前我們各機關都很注重這個問題，而且跟我們所屬醫療機構的醫師都有在配合、都有在了解，縱然有這樣的情況，我們都會因應處理。","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:38.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:47.246000+08:00","text":"我剛剛就特別說好心做了一些動作是OK，但是醫師說這個方法不見得是有利的，我剛剛也舉例了，有名有姓啊。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:47.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:51.630000+08:00","text":"所以三個月訂個指引，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:51.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:54.332000+08:00","text":"現在天氣可能大半年都是大熱天，都快40度啊，可以嗎？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:55.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:55.493000+08:00","text":"是，可以，沒問題。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:56.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:21:58.496000+08:00","text":"加上你剛剛有承諾我的那幾點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:21:58.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:00.738000+08:00","text":"其實平常我們都有在做了，我們再把它整理一下，訂定指引沒問題。","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:00.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:05.483000+08:00","text":"那讓專家幫忙，讓衛福部來幫忙做，把這個指引建立起來。好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:06.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:07.806000+08:00","text":"剛剛你承諾的那幾個點……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:07.806000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:08.806000+08:00","text":"好，我們兩個禮拜給委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:07.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.812000+08:00","text":"我也想有一些書面報告，三個月是不是把指引建立起來，這應該是人道的做法，好嗎？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:14.812000+08:00","text":"是，可以的，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.892000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝兩位首長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:13.892000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:14.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:16.392000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:16.692000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:26.977714+08:00","text":"我們先確認一下議事錄，由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，我們就先確定議事錄。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:27.277714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:33.277714+08:00","text":"請問各位，上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:33.577714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:36.434857+08:00","text":"（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:36.734857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:41.306286+08:00","text":"接下來請林倩綺委員來代替我當主席。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"主席（林委員倩綺代）","start":"2026-07-08T09:22:41.606286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:22:44.749143+08:00","text":"下一位我們請翁曉玲召委。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":169,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時5分）謝謝主席。有請鄭部長及矯正署林署長。"],["主席：請部長及署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：兩位首長早。本席接獲很多臺南監獄基層同仁的陳情，所以我今天就是來幫他們討公道。請問部長，你知道臺南監獄現在收容多少人嗎？過去5年來增加了百分之多少？請問部長或署長知道嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：目前3,500人……"],["陳委員昭姿：如果一時沒有資料，我等一下也有資料。"],["林署長憲銘：目前一直維持在三千多人。"],["陳委員昭姿：請你大聲一點，謝謝！"],["林署長憲銘：不好意思！跟委員報告，目前都維持在三千多人，最新資料是3,500人。"],["陳委員昭姿：這樣增加多少？就是這5年的增加率，增加多少？"],["林署長憲銘：這5年的增加率，因為這會涉及到COVID-19那個時間，數字會急遽地減少。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，等一下我有一些數字，再跟你們繼續討論。我再問，今年全國的矯正機關平均加班時數為何？臺南監獄員工的加班時數多少？你們有沒有資料？"],["林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，大概平均加班時數都是四十幾個小時，臺南監獄應該也是在這樣的quota。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，所以你認為臺南監獄也是跟全國平均加班時數是一樣的？"],["林署長憲銘：應該它的排名上……我們都有分析排名，它還不是屬於名列前茅的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我們等一下來看數字。請問現在臺南監獄的缺額或是全國的缺額究竟有多嚴重，你知道嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：全國的缺額是774名。"],["陳委員昭姿：那臺南監獄的部分呢？"],["林署長憲銘：南監缺額的話，這個資料我就沒有掌握到。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒關係，那就請兩位首長看下一張投影片，數據會說話。臺南監獄受刑人數從110年的1,816人增加到114年的3,133人，表示過去5年增加了72.5%，但是5年來監所管理人員人數卻沒有增加，反而減少，簡單地說就是管理工作量越來越大。右邊是加班時數，我們來看臺南監獄同仁的加班時數，今年3月平均高達50小時，你剛才說四十幾個小時，我給你看的是平均，而且中位數是54小時，中位數的意思是代表有一半的人是超過54小時的加班時間，這個數字高於整體矯正機關的加班時數。現在臺南監獄戒護人員的缺額是27人，什麼時候才會補齊呢？剛剛你說全臺灣大概欠七百多人。"],["林署長憲銘：774人。"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼時候會補齊，可不可以請你一併回答？謝謝。"],["林署長憲銘：跟委員報告，因為缺額都在我們的控管當中，7月底我們有三百多位新考上的人員，他們受訓完後會補下去，剩下的話，他們可以請一些職務代理人來遞補這些人力的空缺。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，請不要等到基層過勞倒下去了，矯正署才覺得這是個問題……"],["林署長憲銘：我們知道，我們都有在分析，我們都有在掌控。"],["陳委員昭姿：你說補三百多人，但事實上是缺七百多人嘛！"],["林署長憲銘：剩下的四百多人，他們可以請職務代理人來遞補。"],["陳委員昭姿：那是不是會請職代？當然職代我們也要看看，畢竟職代不能占率太高嘛，對不對？"],["林署長憲銘：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：正式員額是比較重要的。臺南監獄現在管理員是176人，缺了27人，但我要請你看的是下面這些情況，我直接問署長好了，署長，你認為合理的戒護比是多少？我們來看看法務部矯正署109年的委託研究報告，這是你們的委託研究報告，其中提到，合理的戒護比應該降到1比6到1比8之間。我們來參考鄰近國家的狀況，這是政府最愛做的，也是很合理的。右圖鄰近國家中，當然美國是臺灣最友好的國家，它是1比4.5，日本是1比2.3，韓國是1比3，但是去年北所大約是1比9.5。請兩位首長先把這件事放在心上，你們自己的研究報告是寫1比6到1比8之間是合理的。再看到114年的在監人數，剛才講臺南監獄收容了3,133人，日勤管理員有93人，排班制有154人，加起來是247人。你大概還沒算出來，沒關係，我已經算好了，這樣算下來臺南監獄的戒護比高達1比12.7，等於是1比13！臺南監獄管理員反映，晚上甚至一個人要管三百多個受刑人，所以我請問署長，一個人要看管將近13個受刑人，這符合你們的研究報告嗎？兩倍！"],["林署長憲銘：一直以來，我們都有研究出這樣的情形。"],["陳委員昭姿：怎麼辦？"],["林署長憲銘：其實各個國家的國情、民情還有整體刑事政策的演變，有時候都是我們自己要因應的。"],["陳委員昭姿：你說國情、民情，但你們有反映過嗎？你們有處理嗎？有正視這個問題嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：接下來讓你繼續看，為什麼他們要陳情所受的辛苦？根據服勤實施辦法，監所每月加班超過60小時就必須造冊陳報到法務部。部長，我可以問你嗎？你有看過監獄造冊陳報的資料嗎？因為他們超過就要報給法務部。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是人事單位會控管……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒關係，部長沒有看到，但我還是有資料，您先記一下，因為超過60小時要陳報。根據我掌握的內部資訊，臺南監獄本來提報……有個名詞叫機動備勤時數，就是待命，他必須在當地、在機關裡面待命，不可以離開，大約是48到52小時，後來卻莫名其妙被砍到43小時。請你看這張圖表中間那個地方，即之前待命大概48到52小時，現在變成43小時，為什麼是43？這很奧妙！因為加上假日被call回來，右邊有個「8+8」，現在的常態是他們假日平均被叫回來兩次，加班是16小時，43+16是多少？這可以加了吧？59小時，剛好躲過要上報的門檻60小時，就可以不用上報法務部。部長，這樣合理嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：對管理人員加班的部分，我們會關心過勞的問題，我們的確希望能夠進行一些改善。"],["陳委員昭姿：不合理！部長，你就回答我：不合理！既然不合理，我們就想辦法。從今年3月開始，基層反映他們休假被call回來，你想想看1個月不過4個周末，他被call回來加班，2次是常態，甚至常常3次，而且連24小時的班都要扛。我也知道目前臺南監獄可能是人力不夠，所以用這個方式壓低備勤時數，就是壓低前半段，以便於後半段補的時候，規避60小時的門檻。這真的是你們對待矯正機關基層的態度嗎？署長，你要不要去了解一下？你剛才看了前一頁那張表，之前是48到52，被叫回來不用陳報上去的，大概頂多就1到2次，你現在把前面壓到43，表示後面備著至少2次都還不用往上報。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這是臺南看守所？"],["陳委員昭姿：臺南監獄。臺南有臺南監獄、第二監獄跟看守所。這是臺南監獄，你們要不要去了解一下？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個部分我們來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝你們跟我說你們不是這樣，這是基層的心聲。就我掌握的資訊，臺南監所目前外役管理及帶受刑人去就醫的量都增加，因為以前收容人少，平均一個早上是3個人出去就醫，1個人要有2個人陪，對不對？1組，那就要6個人。可是現在收容人變多，看病也會增加，所以早上大概5到6個受刑人就醫，那就需要10到12個人出去，這還只是固定安排回診。如果加上臨時生病的，人數就需要更多，所以臺南監獄就怎麼做呢？他就常常call管理員回來加班，現在就變成這個樣子。如果受刑人就醫人數暴增，戒護人力吃緊的話，就把他們叫回來，你們覺得這樣合理嗎？你要不要去了解一下？"],["林署長憲銘：關於戒護外醫的情形，目前我們也正在做跟員警的管控，因為我們希望跟醫院有更多的合作，不要那麼多都得戒護外醫。"],["陳委員昭姿：該看病就得看病，現在是事實上就要出動這麼多人數。"],["林署長憲銘：我們希望監內看診的科別能夠更多，讓我們少一點戒護外醫，我們跟健保的合作需要有更多的商量。"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天就是幫他們傳達幾個訴求，我希望你們現在就能夠處理的，當場給我初步的承諾。第一個、補足人力缺口，長期而言，正式員額還是必須增加的。剛剛你說也許會有一些職代，但是你們要開始盤點，評估透過職代補充人力的情況。因為我剛剛把那麼多數字給你們了，第一個、補足人力缺口，有問題嗎？努力補足人力缺口，部長可以承諾吧？你想辦法排出來！這個預算不會減、不會砍。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們盤點後，再來規劃請增。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個可以吧？第一個訴求很合理。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我們來努力。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，第一個訴求很合理。第二個、基層同仁主張，剛剛我特別提到的待命，就是機動備勤時數，原來是48到52小時，他們說現在他們感受到改成43小時就是為了不用上報。你現在可不可以把所謂的待命時間，而且是在監獄裡面的待命時間，可不可以再回到之前的48到52小時？"],["林署長憲銘：會，這個我們來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：可以？"],["林署長憲銘：可以，我們再來了解一下。"],["陳委員昭姿：你去了解，因為基層的感受就是這樣。"],["林署長憲銘：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：我也不怪臺南監獄的處理方式，人不夠，他當然就盡量不要上報，可是部長要特別注意不要上報這件事，當下面的人因為擔心你們的壓力或是你們也許會不高興等等不往上陳報，而躲過60個小時是一個很大的問題！有關待命的時間，署長可以處理一下嗎？研究一下嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：可以，我們會再來控管。"],["陳委員昭姿：第三個、是不是能保障基層休假權益？你知道嗎？他們好客氣，他們說是不是1個月頂多叫回2次，希望不要叫回第3次？這個要求好卑微，把基層的休息時間還給他們，把跟家人在一起的時間還給他們，可以嗎？就是2次，他們說不要到3次，可以嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：可以，我們來了解、調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：合理，對不對？我們將心比心，合理嘛！"],["林署長憲銘：是，調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：1個月要被叫回來2次，對不對？是基層，還不是部長、政務官，可以嗎？這一點也可以？"],["林署長憲銘：好，我們來了解、調整。"],["陳委員昭姿：第四個，他們建議一個蠻具體的方法──彈性調整日間作業，如果碰到受刑人要就醫的人數暴增，戒護人力就不夠，但要看病也沒辦法，是不是可以授權機關彈性暫停日間工廠作業？因為本來有個日間工廠在作業，是不是讓日勤人員能夠支援外醫勤務，而不是動不動就無止盡地把休假的人call回來支援，這個方法行嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：目前這樣的情形我們都已經有在做了。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是他們還在反映，所以可見還在發生。"],["林署長憲銘：我們再來了解。"],["陳委員昭姿：從加班時數，就是說……"],["林署長憲銘：如果臨時性有這樣的需求，我們是可以把工廠……"],["陳委員昭姿：你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：合理，這是臨時的調整，是需要的。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為就醫還是要緊的，在次序上就醫還是重要的，不要動不動工廠生產就照常做。"],["林署長憲銘：實務上，我們都有這樣在做。"],["陳委員昭姿：署長，彈性調整日間作業，這件事可以嗎？我的投影片這四點你都可以好好面對，然後處理？"],["林署長憲銘：是，我們都來調整、因應，謝謝委員關心。"],["陳委員昭姿：我本來希望你會後到我辦公室說明，兩週內可以稍微整理一下嗎？兩週內，OK吧？"],["林署長憲銘：可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：前陣子臺北看守所發生兩個收容人倒地送醫，一個36歲年輕人死亡了，70歲那一位有恢復生命跡象，社會很關注。不管是不是北所後來說明的個人身體因素、慢性病，我想要思考如何因應極端氣候酷暑難耐的情況，裡面沒有空調，這是全民要面對的問題。我會特別關心監所、看守所的公衛條件，其實是根據這兩個公約，即公政公約及聯合國受刑人處遇最低限度標準規範都有提到，空間、照明、通風都是要被考量的，可是實際狀況是超收。部長看一下右邊那張圖是超收的狀況，超收就會影響原來的公衛條件，公衛條件會被壓縮、受限，本來環境的這些事情就都要注意。你是要關他、剝奪他的自由，並不該用惡劣的環境讓他生病，甚至中暑、死亡，就是最近發生的例子。"],["鄭部長銘謙：不是中暑，他是個人的身體因素，他有慢性病。"],["陳委員昭姿：我知道北所已經說不是這樣。部長，你是不是同意現在的監所環境還沒有辦法完全保障收容人的健康權？這是個健康權。"],["鄭部長銘謙：就是因為超收的問題，我們這次大力查緝不法犯罪……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但你們還是要去面對，不能因為他做壞事就不要他的健康權，對不對？這個不可以。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個我們非常重視！另外，比較超收的部分，像彰化看守所是因為新的看守所已經啟用，現在是用舊所的資料。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，解決方法就是，法務部可不可以同意訂定監所熱傷害醫療救護與用藥指引？在新聞稿中，我有看到北所提出了幾項措施，他有努力朝好的方向去做。不過在民團召開的記者會當中，我覺得有一點要特別處理的是，有關加強通風是採全面開啟風扇及抽風機的方法，但是監所關注小組的理事長鄭龍驊醫師說中暑的原因……你剛剛說那個人不是中暑，我先予以尊重，但是酷暑、天氣的變化造成這個問題大家都知道，心知肚明。他說中暑的原因在於核心體溫過高，單純增加風扇或空氣流動並不能真正降溫，在極端高溫下，甚至可能加速脫水的風險。我知道這是好意，就是幫他們通通風，但是不是要仰賴有醫療背景的專業？例如法務部、矯正署可不可以跟衛福部合作？訂一個監所熱傷害醫療救護與用藥指引？這個有問題嗎？合作訂定一個指引，因為我們是要關他，但不是要把他熱死，可以嗎？這有問題嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：沒有問題，跟委員報告，目前我們各機關都很注重這個問題，而且跟我們所屬醫療機構的醫師都有在配合、都有在了解，縱然有這樣的情況，我們都會因應處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：我剛剛就特別說好心做了一些動作是OK，但是醫師說這個方法不見得是有利的，我剛剛也舉例了，有名有姓啊。所以三個月訂個指引，可以嗎？現在天氣可能大半年都是大熱天，都快40度啊，可以嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：是，可以，沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：加上你剛剛有承諾我的那幾點。"],["林署長憲銘：其實平常我們都有在做了，我們再把它整理一下，訂定指引沒問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：那讓專家幫忙，讓衛福部來幫忙做，把這個指引建立起來。"],["林署長憲銘：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：剛剛你承諾的那幾個點……"],["林署長憲銘：好，我們兩個禮拜給委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：我也想有一些書面報告，三個月是不是把指引建立起來，這應該是人道的做法，好嗎？"],["林署長憲銘：是，可以的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝兩位首長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","我們先確認一下議事錄，由於議事錄先前已經宣讀完畢，尚未確定，我們就先確定議事錄。請問各位，上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏之處？（無）沒有的話，議事錄確定。","接下來請林倩綺委員來代替我當主席。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：下一位我們請翁曉玲召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-24","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","張雅琳","林倩綺","沈發惠","范雲","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","莊瑞雄","林沛祥","吳宗憲","蔡其昌","邱鎮軍","傅崐萁"],"page_start":255,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」\n案、（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案、（三）委員\n王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（四）委\n員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（五）\n委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案、（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬\n具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（七）委員翁曉玲等24人\n擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文\n修正草案」案、（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（十）委員\n羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155901_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}