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09:22:16","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【7月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.384718750000001,"end":7.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.41784375,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.77971875,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":31.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.95846875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.37159375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.09284375,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.57346875,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.64909375,"end":40.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.69971875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.88909375,"end":45.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.91409375,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.791593750000004,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.84971875,"end":55.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.35596875,"end":53.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.971593750000004,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.815343750000004,"end":59.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.66721875,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.970968750000004,"end":65.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.25346875,"end":61.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.48784375000001,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.38596875,"end":77.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.45346875,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.48721875000001,"end":86.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.28346875000001,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.11034375,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.00846875,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":106.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.79221875,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.30534375,"end":112.08096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.24159375,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.40159375,"end":117.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.45159375,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.04221875,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.44159375,"end":157.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.17096875000001,"end":160.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.59659375,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.86034375,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.89409375000002,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.53096875,"end":175.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.14659375000002,"end":188.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.22846875000002,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.85284375,"end":204.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.37971875000002,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.72971875000002,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.16784375,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.18471875,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.30284375000002,"end":204.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.77534375000002,"end":206.34471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.51346875000002,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.18409375000002,"end":222.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.74034375000002,"end":213.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.81534375,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":226.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.35409375,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.84784375,"end":260.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.20534375,"end":269.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.55846875000003,"end":285.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.23096875000005,"end":293.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.19596875,"end":307.03784375000004},{"spea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有請鄭部長還有蔣正署 林署長好 請部長還有署長委員早兩位署長早本席接獲很多這個台南監獄的基層同仁的存情所以我今天就是來幫他們討公道那請問部長 你知道台南監獄現在收容多少人嗎那過去五年來增加了百分之多少"},{"start":34.657,"end":60.096,"text":"請問部長或署長知道嗎三千五百如果一直沒有資料 我等一下也有資料目前一直維持在三千多人請你大聲一點 謝謝不好意思各位媒體報告 目前都維持在三千多人那最現實的是三千五百這樣增加多少 就是這五年增加增加率增加多少增加了 這五年的增加率喔這五年喔 那沒關係"},{"start":61.777,"end":80.566,"text":"會涉及到那個COVID-19那個時間會急劇的減少那等一下我有一些數字我再跟你們繼續討論那我再問今年全國的矯正機關平均加班時數為何那台南監獄員工的加班時數多少你們有沒有資料跟委員報告大概平均加班時數都四十幾個小時"},{"start":81.799,"end":100.013,"text":"那台南監獄應該也是在這樣的一個擴大那台南監獄你認為也是跟全國平均加班時數是一樣的應該他的排名上 我們都有分析排名他還不是屬於名列前面好那我們等一下來看數字那請問你 現在缺額究竟有多嚴重這個台南的缺額你知道嗎台南監獄缺額或是全國的缺額"},{"start":107.355,"end":114.658,"text":"全國的缺額是有774名那南京的缺額的話這個資料沒有掌握到我們現在看下一張投影片那就請兩位首長看 數據會說話台南監獄受刑人從110年1816人增加到114年3133人所以過去5年增加了72.5%"},{"start":133.765,"end":152.513,"text":"但是五年來監所管理人員的人數沒有增加哦反而減少所以簡單的說管理工作量就越來越大那右邊是這個加班時數我們來看台南監獄同仁的加班時數今年三月平均高達五十個小時你如果說四十幾天前後給你看是平均而且中位數"},{"start":153.593,"end":172.847,"text":"是54個小時中位數的意思是代表有一半的人是超過54小時的加班時間那這個數字是高於整體的矯正機關的加班時數那現在台南監獄卸務人員的缺額是27個人那什麼時候才會補齊呢剛剛你說全台灣大概"},{"start":174.348,"end":193.354,"text":"700多人 774那什麼社會補給 可不可以請你一併回答跟著委員報告的話 因為這個缺額都是在我們控管當中那7月底的話 我們有300多位的那個新考上送人 搜尋完會補下去那剩下的話 他們可以請一些植物代理人來遞補這些人力的一個空缺"},{"start":194.278,"end":212.476,"text":"就是說 署長 請不要等到基層過牢倒下去了我們知道我們都有在分析 我們都有在掌控你說補300多人 那事實上還是缺了700多人嘛400多人他們可以請職務代理人那是不是會請職代當然職代我們也要看看 職代是不能佔率太高嘛"},{"start":213.177,"end":226.535,"text":"正式緣合是比較重要的那台南監獄現在管理員是176人那缺了27人但我要請你看的是下面的這些情況我直接問署長好了署長你認為合理的借戶比"},{"start":227.423,"end":252.374,"text":"是多少我們來看看法務部的這個矯正署109年的委託研究報告那是你委託研究報告合理的介護比一公斤應該降到1比6到1比8那我們看看鄰近國家就是參考鄰近國家嘛這是政府最愛做的也是很合理的右邊鄰近國家當然美國是台灣最友好的國家1比4.5那日本是1比2"},{"start":255.089,"end":268.719,"text":"韓國是1比3但是去年北索大約是1比9.5請兩位首長先把這件事放在心上你們自己的研究報告是1比6到1比8是合理的"},{"start":270.421,"end":274.203,"text":"如果我看114年債捐人數,台南監獄收容了剛剛講的3133人日勤管理員有93人,排班制有154人,加起來是247人這樣算下來台南監獄的借戶比高達1比12.7,就是1比13"},{"start":294.266,"end":306.712,"text":"那台南監獄管理員反映,他晚上甚至一個人要管300多個受刑人所以我請問署長,一個人要看管將近13個受刑人這符合你們的研究報告嗎?跟委員報告,這個是一直以來我們都有研究出這樣的一個情形"},{"start":314.608,"end":326.994,"text":"那其實這個國家的國情、民情、整體行政策的演變的話有時候也是我們都是要繼續跟他因應的國情、民情你們有反應過嗎?你們有處理嗎?有正視這個問題嗎?我下來讓你繼續看為什麼他們要澄清他們的苦他們所受的辛苦你根據這個扶勤實施辦法監鎖每月加班超過60小時"},{"start":341.081,"end":347.565,"text":"就必須照冊呈報嘛 到法務部來那 部長 我在問你 你有看過這個監獄照冊呈報的資料嗎因為他們超過就要報告給法務部啊"},{"start":353.582,"end":363.566,"text":"這個是人事單位會公關沒關係 部長沒有看到但是我還是有資料就是說因為超過60小時 部長您先記一下超過60小時是要呈報的那根據我掌握的內部資訊台南監獄本來提報的這個所謂的 有個名詞叫機動機動備勤實施 就是待命他必須在當地 就是在機關裡面待命不可以離開 大約是48到52小時"},{"start":381.033,"end":407.715,"text":"但是後來卻莫名其妙被砍到43小時請你看我這張圖表中間那個地方before就之前這個待命大概48到52小時那現在變成43小時為什麼是43這很奧妙喔因為你加上假日被call回來右邊有個8加8他們現在常態是平均被叫回來假日兩次加班是16小時43加16是多少可以加了吧"},{"start":408.456,"end":409.239,"text":"59小時剛好躲過6小時要上報的門檻"},{"start":415.031,"end":438.037,"text":"就可以不用上法務部 不然這樣合理我想我非常對我們那個管理人員的這些的加班這部分我們會關心他那個過勞的一個問題那的確是我們是希望能夠做一些的改善不合理我們想辦法"},{"start":439.717,"end":443.64,"text":"從今年三月開始那個基層反應他們休假被扣回來你想想一個月不過四個週末啊他被扣回來加班兩次是常態甚至常常三次"},{"start":451.377,"end":471.468,"text":"而且連24小時班都要來扛喔等於台南就醫目前我也知道可能是人力不夠嘛他用這個壓低背勤時數就是壓低前半段以便於後半段來補的時候來規避6小時的門檻這真的是我們對待矯正機關基層的態度嗎署長你要不要去了解一下"},{"start":473.988,"end":498.255,"text":"你還在看那個表嘛 前一頁那個表就是這個表之前是48到52嘛那你被叫回來的不用呈報上去大概就一到兩次頂多那你現在把這個前面壓到43表示你後面還背著至少兩次你都還不用往下報這是那個台南看守區台南監獄台南監獄跟看守區這是台南監獄台南監獄那你們要不要去了解一下"},{"start":499.135,"end":514.007,"text":"這個問題我們才了解好 謝謝你們給我說你們不是這樣這是私人的心聲就我掌握資訊才能監索目前的外溢管理包括帶受刑人去就醫因為以前受療人少所以平均一個早上是三個人出去就醫"},{"start":515.228,"end":539.29,"text":"那一個人要有兩個人陪對不對 一組嘛 那就要六個人可是現在收容人變多啊 看病也會增加啊所以他早上大概五到六個受診人就醫 但就需要十到十二個人出去嘛那這個還只是說他是固定的 要排就診嘛 回去就診那如果是臨時生病呢 那人數就需要更多啊所以台南監獄就怎麼做呢 他就橫行就把管理員回來加班啊"},{"start":540.151,"end":553.554,"text":"甚至就變成這個樣子啊那如果說受刑人數暴增就是就醫要暴增 借護人力吃緊的話那就把他們叫回來那你們覺得這樣合理嗎 你要不要去了解一下"},{"start":555.655,"end":568.064,"text":"來跟有人報告關於那個介護外醫的情形目前的話我們也正在做一個更嚴謹的一個管控因為我們希望跟醫院那邊有更多的合作不要說說介護外醫現在就是事實上他是要驚動這麼多人數我們希望說在境內的看診的話科別的話更多讓我們少一點介護外醫這個跟我們跟健保的合作也會做更多的商量但是我今天就是把他們幾個訴求我希望你們現在如果能夠處理的"},{"start":579.051,"end":602.693,"text":"就當場給我一個初步的承諾第一個補足人力缺口因為長期而言正式員還是必須增加的剛剛這個也許你們說會有一些值代的部分但是你要開始盤點評估透過值代補充人力的情況因為我剛剛把那麼多數字給你們了那你第一個補足人力缺口這個有問題嗎努力補足人力缺口部長你可以承諾吧"},{"start":603.729,"end":619.08,"text":"想辦法嘛你排出來嘛這個我們再來盤點盤點我們再來做一個規劃來請證這個可以吧第一個訴求很合理第一個訴求很合理第二個基層同仁主張剛剛我特別提到那個待命就是機動背勤實屬它原來是48到52小時"},{"start":622.583,"end":635.912,"text":"然後他們說現在他們感受到是43小時就是為了讓不用去上報那你現在可不可以把這個所謂的待命時間而且是在鎖 在監獄裡面待命時間可不可以再回到之前的48到52小時"},{"start":639.125,"end":644.128,"text":"跟委員報告會 這個我們來瞭解這也可以你去瞭解 因為基層的感受就是這樣那為什麼 我也不怪台南監獄他們的處理人不夠 他就把說 當然今天不要上報可是不要上報部長 您要特別注意一件事當下面人因為擔心你們的壓力或是你們也許不高興等等他不上報 這個是一個不往上呈報所以他躲過這個60個小時是一個很大的問題"},{"start":667.901,"end":693.046,"text":"好嗎 這個有關這個待命的時間 署長你可以處理一下嗎 研究一下嗎可以 我們會再來做第三個 是不是保障基層休假權益你知道嗎 他們好客氣喔他們說是不是一個月 叫回兩次頂多吧他說希望不要叫回第三次喔 這個要求好卑微啊把基層的休息時間還給他們嘛把跟家人在一起的時間還給他們嘛 可以嗎不要超過兩次 就說兩次他們說不要到三次 可以嗎"},{"start":698.246,"end":703.931,"text":"跟維報可以 我們來做一個調整合理嘛 對不對 我們將心比心合理嘛你一個月要被叫回來 對不對 就基層了基層了 還不是什麼部長 那個政務官耶是是是可以嗎 這點也可以喔好 是是 那第四個他們建議一個方法蠻具體的彈性調整日間作業如果碰到授權人要就醫 人數暴增 接觸人力就不夠嘛這個也沒辦法 要看病嘛 那是不是可以授權機關這樣"},{"start":724.549,"end":740.226,"text":"暫時就是說彈性暫停日間工廠作業因為本來有個日間工廠在作業那是不是讓日勤人員他能夠去支援外衣的勤務而不是動不動就把無死盡的把外面把休假的人扣回來支援嘛這個方法行嗎"},{"start":741.206,"end":763.416,"text":"跟委員報告 目前這樣的情形我們都已經有在做了但是他們還在反映嘛 所以說可見還在發生啊那我們再來瞭解 如果臨時性有這樣的需求的話我們是可以把那個工廠的開封你覺得這樣合理嗎 因為就醫還是要緊的嘛就醫還是要緊的 工廠生產就是說在次序上就醫還是重要的嘛那你不要動不動就到廠做 實務上我們都有這樣在做"},{"start":764.096,"end":779.244,"text":"那署長那這件事可以嗎彈性調整這間作業那我這樣投影片上這4點你都可以好好去面對然後處理好那這個就是說我本來希望說你會回到我辦公室說明然後兩週兩週內可以稍微整理一下嗎兩週內OK吧"},{"start":780.925,"end":800.988,"text":"那不好意思 前陣子 台北看守所發生兩個收容人倒地受醫就是說36歲的年輕人死亡了那70歲那一位有恢復生命跡象那社會很關注啦那不管是不是北鎖他後來自己說明說個人身體因素 慢性病但是我想如果去因應這個極端氣候酷暑難耐的情況"},{"start":802.55,"end":826.989,"text":"沒有空調啊這是全民要面對的問題那特別是我會關心這個監所看守所的公衛條件其實根據你看看這兩個公約公正公約還有聯合國受刑人處於最低限度的標準規範他都有提到空間空間照明啊通風都要被考量的可是實際狀況你看右邊右邊那張超收的狀況"},{"start":828.519,"end":851.64,"text":"超收部長您看一下右邊這個圖超收的狀況你超收就會影響你原來的公衛條件你這個公衛條件會被壓縮會被受限本來這件事都要注意環境就是說你是要關他給剝奪他自由但你並不是用惡劣的環境讓他生病或是讓他中暑死亡"},{"start":852.421,"end":863.366,"text":"就是最近發生的例子那個不是中暑它是個人的那個身體的因素但是沒有我知道北索的這個是這樣的所以你是不是同意部長你是不是同意現在的監所環境還沒有辦法完全保障所有人的健康權這是個健康權就是因為超收的一個問題因為我們這是大力的查緝的一個部門因為他做壞事我就不要他的健康權這個我們非常重視"},{"start":880.894,"end":888.001,"text":"那另外比方說像那個招募看守所因為就是因為新的看守所已經啟用了那現在是用救手的一個資料"},{"start":889.554,"end":915.787,"text":"最後一個方法就是法務部可被同意訂定監鎖熱傷害醫療救護跟用藥指引那個新聞稿中我有看到北索提出了幾項措施它是有朝努力的方向去做不過在民團召開記者會當中我覺得有一點要特別處理的就是有關這個加強通風跟全面開啟它用全面開啟風扇抽風機的方法但是監鎖管理小組的理事長叫鄭榮化醫師"},{"start":918.649,"end":942.367,"text":"鄭醫師說 中暑的原因 你剛剛說那個人不是中暑我先予以尊重 但是那個酷暑這個天氣的變化造成這個問題大家也都知道 心知肚明他說中暑原因在於核心體溫過高單純增加風扇或空氣流動並不能真正降溫在極端高溫下甚至可能加速脫水的風險所以我知道就是好意 大家說不然我幫你通通風"},{"start":943.268,"end":961.547,"text":"但是是不是要仰賴以有醫療背景的專業例如說法務部可不可以 矯正署可不可以跟衛福部合作訂一個就是說 監鎖熱傷害醫療救護跟用藥指引 這個有問題嗎合作 然後寫一個指引因為我們是要關他 不是要把他熱死可以嗎"},{"start":963.169,"end":990.352,"text":"這有問題嗎沒有問題跟委員報告目前我們各機關都很注重這個問題而且跟我們所屬的醫療機構的醫師都有在配合都有在瞭解雖然有這樣的情況的話那我剛剛就特別講說好心做了一些動作是OK但是醫師說這個方法不見得是有利的我剛剛也舉例啦有名有姓啊所以這個那你三個月訂個指引好嗎可以嗎現在天氣可能一半年都在大熱天啊都快40度啊"},{"start":990.672,"end":1009.972,"text":"是是是可以嗎可以加上你剛剛有承諾我的那幾點其實平常我們都有在做了我們再把它整理一下那這樣算一下幫忙嘛是是是讓衛福部來幫忙做把這個指引建立起來好好剛剛你承諾那幾個點那我也想有一些書面報告然後這個三個月是不是把這個指引建立下來這個應該是一個人道的做法嘛好嗎謝謝兩位首長謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}