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麻煩請台灣原酒公司湯董事長跟賴總經理請湯董事長 賴總經理兩位早 那個按一下 回音早"},{"start":27.385,"end":47.085,"text":"我這幾天很認真看到你們在行銷台酒的啤酒,包括在高雄辦啤酒節,還有別的地方,很認真在行銷,啤酒的銷售或是酒類的銷售有增加嗎?"},{"start":48.781,"end":76.52,"text":"跟委員報告我們啤酒今年的一到五月跟去年同期比較的話目前是衰退一點多%但是這個距離應該因為夏天還沒有來應該有機會可以比去年同期成長那你們其實最大的問題是你們的菸銷售量跟去年跟前年比起來少了多少到目前少了百分之八左右"},{"start":77.899,"end":103.188,"text":"這是今年的吧今年到現在到5月是少了12%啦是跟去年比嗎對對對那跟加熱菸還沒有開放的時間比呢加熱菸還沒有開放是少8%但是加熱菸開放之後現在是少12%少12%那這個營業收入會少多少到5月份少了13億多好那"},{"start":104.471,"end":129.307,"text":"最重要的問題是要怎麼樣去取得我知道我們菸酒公司也有準備要生產加熱菸但是要經過健康風險評估的核准目前核准的兩家都是外國公司台灣菸酒公司你認為沒有辦法取得加熱菸的核准"},{"start":130.748,"end":134.763,"text":"時間的問題呢還是程序上還是審查上有什麼困難"},{"start":136.871,"end":159.949,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我想跟委員報告我想我們在下個禮拜七月十三號下禮拜一會正式的提供第九次的資料補正那這一次的資料另容呢最主要是針對於動物性實驗跟國健署要求的九十項的排放測試那現在都已經完成了做好我們也希望目標可以有機會的"},{"start":161.11,"end":175.37,"text":"有條件的像美國跟日本一樣在第三季來通過因為同仁都很關心除了本公司的營收以外我想也有攸關政府的收入跟市場的秩序因為"},{"start":176.351,"end":199.238,"text":"唯一生產的本土業者沒有一家通過卻通過了海外的兩家業者所以我想我們會盡全力的把這個實驗的做完整那當然要看國建署他們的態度健康風險評估這個制度在全世界有販售加熱菸的國家裡面有幾個國家採取要經過這樣的程序目前就我知道的是沒有就台灣"},{"start":201.82,"end":220.516,"text":"我們之前有做過一個比喻當然這個比喻恰不恰當自己來考慮舉重民輕你那個捲菸普通的紫菸現在販售之前要不要做健康風險評估現在是沒有健康風險評估但是配方的內容要申報"},{"start":222.116,"end":249.228,"text":"那如果止煙不用健康風險評估請問你的加熱煙你沒有點燃加熱煙跟止煙之間我知道我看到的資料最大的差距是焦油嘛因為沒有點燃沒有焦油嘛那其他的成分都是煙草都是一模一樣的東西啊反而危害更小又沒有明火那為什麼止煙沒有健康風險評估加熱煙要健康風險評估而且是全世界首創的例子"},{"start":250.285,"end":254.795,"text":"你知道原因是什麼嗎是因為本院立法院硬把你們加上去嗎"},{"start":256.787,"end":284.774,"text":"跟委員報告我們是生產單位那國建署是屬於督導單位要看國建署的態度啦那事實上我們要跟國建署碰面也蠻困難的透過email但是這一次因為我們延拓了三年喔那我們這一次在下個禮拜一這個實驗已經相當完整了那接下來就要看國建署的態度是不是能讓本土唯一的一間業者還有也是政府的公司有機會的"},{"start":285.874,"end":305.097,"text":"有條件的跟另外那兩家一樣的來通過這個邏輯上很奇怪喔叫我選法律的我講究邏輯嘛沒有核准你的產品卻要拿你的產品的這個實驗報告出來你產品就沒有賣你又沒有辦法生產這個產品那你怎麼樣去做實驗"},{"start":306.755,"end":333.877,"text":"他沒有核准你生產啊那你沒有核准你生產你就沒有產品啊沒有產品你如何去我請教你你如何去做這些實驗呢我跟委員報告一開始跟國進署的溝通是希望我們可以用資料的橋接因為國外的加熱煙已經都賣了十幾年了但是到後來又轉向變成說沒有辦法橋接所以我們才最近又延拓了半年去進行所有的動物性實驗"},{"start":335.421,"end":347.626,"text":"我知道問題是你沒有產品你要拿什麼東西去實驗我們又特別的跟國建署他有一個專案製造審查又特別申請了樣品去做動物性實驗所以他核准你做樣品然後去做實驗這樣子"},{"start":349.599,"end":376.038,"text":"好啦 那你國健署有沒有給你們什麼樣的行政指導啊不是讓你在盲人摸象 因為沒有潛力啊全世界也沒有潛力那沒有潛力的狀況下 要去做這個健康風險評估他有沒有給你做一些行政指導 不然不是瞎子摸象嗎 全貿都不知道那如何去能夠來 用委員會制度台灣的委員會喔 有一個最糟糕的地方是採共識學"},{"start":377.159,"end":390.079,"text":"只有一個委員有什麼意見你那個案子全部都要打掉重來然後要符合他的意見主席如果沒有擔當的話這些事情都進行不了你知道嗎那國進署有沒有給你一些行政指導"},{"start":391.443,"end":409.038,"text":"跟委員報告我們的直屬長官有給我們很多鼓勵啦那至於國建署的部分我們比較不容易跟他有溝通啦那我們就是E-mail針對他給我們的東西下去做調整鼓勵是給你呼呼說你辛苦了這樣叫鼓勵是不是"},{"start":410.239,"end":426.718,"text":"長官給我們很多鼓勵因為這畢竟過去沒有一個先例但是我們希望這是一個我剛剛講的就是市場的秩序應該台灣是唯一生產的另外兩個業者都是海外平行輸入的事實上如果所有的產品是在菸酒公司生產"},{"start":427.999,"end":452.068,"text":"我想對於市場的這個管理的機制應該會更好我們應該是更能守護市場的標準才對啦因為你是國營事業而且是百分之百公股啦沒有私人股份我才敢在這邊講這個我如果在這邊講被解讀說我在包庇煙傷我在推進什麼給圖利什麼我這吃不完兜著走啊這個這些團體是很厲害的好你先請回座好謝謝委員請那個財政部莊部長莊部長"},{"start":459.537,"end":480.035,"text":"委員好部長我剛剛跟燕酒公司管理人的對話你有聽到是的他說你們有給他們很多的鼓勵你們是給什麼鼓勵委員不只是鼓勵其實我們我有請國庫署署長到衛福部去做溝通看看了解問題真的在哪裡那我想這個部分衛福部也提供了一些比較"},{"start":480.675,"end":509.45,"text":"具体的可以说认为建议烟酒公司应该去什么样的比如说找哪些机构去做相关的一些检测等等不是只有鼓励其实我们也希望因为烟酒公司它确实因为市场上加热烟嘛已经开始有在贩售那我们也希望烟酒公司的产品能够尽快通过健康风险评估而它经过几次我知道是已经是第九次要他们补证了那到底要补什么以及要什么样的方式其实我们国库署署长都有到卫福部去协助沟通了解"},{"start":510.51,"end":535.498,"text":"部長我覺得我要跟你講一個我的想法是財政部跟衛福部是平行單位你們的溝通的上層是行政院嘛這個創設了一個全世界從來沒有過的制度然後別的國家的加熱菸準了百分之百公營的能夠遵守法令的審查了兩三年審不過"},{"start":537.017,"end":554.666,"text":"我覺得這個應該要到行政院去據理力爭啦這個 如果你讓這個委員會就讓他這樣跑那麼多的委員 這個委員 這個意見 那個委員 那個意見每次都不停在補資料 你知道開一個委員會一次都好幾個月補來補去那台灣菸酒公司怎麼生存啊我們"},{"start":557.94,"end":580.589,"text":"除了肩負國庫的收入之外我們也要照顧我們的同仁讓他們有這個合法的市場可以去經營我覺得這個事情我其實關心很久了我以前就是很納悶說這個邏輯就不通啊為什麼會這樣就現在了解起來說其實委員會如果主席沒有擔當的話就是變成大家都不負責任"},{"start":582.698,"end":598.793,"text":"上次沒來開會的這次來開會隨便發表一條意見又沒有共識然後又要再下一次你們應該要跟行政院把這個狀況說明清楚日本的美國的加熱菸在台灣可以賣"},{"start":601.002,"end":629.008,"text":"他們是怎麼通過健康風險評估的他們也是審查通過的啊為什麼會通過他們有去做這些實驗嗎他是拿他在外國橋接在外國賣加熱菸的資料來到台灣審的嘛那為什麼菸酒公司要單獨自己去做這些實驗這些實驗以前也沒有過也沒有人做過你們要想辦法要跟衛福部這邊溝通啦是要請那麼多一點行政指導好的"},{"start":630.031,"end":640.387,"text":"要符合法律但是路要讓人家能夠走下去如果連國家的百分之百國營的企業都走不下去那還有誰能做呢是喔 好不好 加油喔好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:24:34.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:24:40.041000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請臺灣菸酒公司湯董事長跟賴總經理。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:24:40.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:24:40.661000+08:00","text":"請湯董事長、賴總經理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:24:40.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:24:42.303000+08:00","text":"兩位早，麥克風按一下。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:24:42.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:24:42.603000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:24:56.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:06.695000+08:00","text":"這幾天我有認真看到你們在行銷臺酒的啤酒，包括在高雄辦啤酒節……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:06.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:07.695000+08:00","text":"對，高雄啤酒節。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:06.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:12.781000+08:00","text":"還有在別的地方，反正有認真在行銷啦！","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:12.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:13.781000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:12.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:16.085000+08:00","text":"啤酒的銷售或是酒類的銷售有增加嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:17.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:32.871000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，啤酒今年1到5月跟去年同期比較的話，目前是衰退百分之一點多，因為夏天還沒有來，應該有機會比去年同期成長。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:33.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:42.298000+08:00","text":"最大的問題其實是你們的菸，去年銷售量跟前年比起來少了多少？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:43.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:45.500000+08:00","text":"到目前少了8%左右。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:46.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:47.439000+08:00","text":"這是今年的吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:48.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:51.321000+08:00","text":"今年到5月是少了12%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:51.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:53.941000+08:00","text":"是跟去年比嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:53.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:53.941000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:54.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:25:56.282000+08:00","text":"跟加熱菸還沒有開放的時間相比呢？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:25:57.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:26:04.225000+08:00","text":"跟加熱菸還沒有開放時相比是少8%，但是加熱菸開放之後，現在是少12%。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:26:04.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:26:06.806000+08:00","text":"少12%，這個營業收入會少多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:26:08.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:26:10.747000+08:00","text":"到5月份少了十三億多。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:26:11.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:26:43.763000+08:00","text":"好，最重要的問題是要怎麼樣去取得核准，我知道菸酒公司也有準備要生產加熱菸，但是要經過健康風險評估的核准，目前核准的兩家都是外國公司，你認為臺灣菸酒公司沒有辦法取得加熱菸的核准是時間問題，還是程序上、審查上有什麼困難？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:26:45.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:26:46.472000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的關心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:26:47.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:27:37.255000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們在7月13號下禮拜一會正式提供第9次的資料補正，這次的資料內容最主要是針對動物性實驗跟國健署要求的90項排放測試，現在都已經完成了，我們的目標是希望在第三季可以有機會像美國跟日本一樣有條件的通過，因為同仁都很關心，除了本公司的營收以外，我想這也攸關政府收入跟市場秩序，因為唯一生產的本土業者沒有通過，卻通過了海外的兩家業者，所以我想我們會盡全力把實驗做完整，當然也要看國健署的態度。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:27:37.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:27:45.077000+08:00","text":"健康風險評估這個制度，在全世界有販售加熱菸的國家裡面，有幾個國家要經過這樣的程序？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:27:46.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:27:48.238000+08:00","text":"目前就我知道的是沒有，就臺灣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:27:50.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:28:04.492000+08:00","text":"我們之前有做過一個比喻，當然這個比喻恰不恰當自己來考慮，就是舉重明輕，捲菸、普通紙菸現在販售之前要不要做健康風險評估？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:28:06.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:28:09.516000+08:00","text":"現在是沒有健康風險評估，但是配方的內容要申報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:28:18.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:28:41.089000+08:00","text":"從我看到的資料，加熱菸跟紙菸之間最大的差距是焦油，加熱菸因為沒有點燃、沒有焦油，其他的成分都是菸草、都是一模一樣的東西，反而危害更小，又沒有明火，為什麼紙菸沒有加健康風險評估，加熱菸要健康風險評估，而且是全世界首創的例子，你知道原因是什麼嗎？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:28:41.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:28:43.795000+08:00","text":"是因為本院（立法院）硬把你們加上去嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:28:45.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:28:57.110000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們是生產單位，國健署是屬於督導單位，要看國健署的態度，事實上我們要跟國健署碰面也滿困難的，都透過email聯繫。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:28:58.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:29:19.359000+08:00","text":"我們已延宕了三年，這一次在下個禮拜一補正的這個實驗資料已經相當完整，接下來就要看國健署的態度，是不是能讓本土唯一的業者同時也是政府的公司，有機會、有條件的跟另外那兩家一樣來通過。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:29:19.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:29:34.097000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯上很奇怪，像我學法律，我講究邏輯，沒有核准你的產品，卻要你拿產品的實驗報告出來，產品就沒有賣，你又沒有辦法生產這個產品，那你怎麼樣去做實驗？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:29:35.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:29:36.936000+08:00","text":"他沒有核准你生產啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:29:38.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:29:44.322000+08:00","text":"沒有核准你生產就沒有產品，我請教你，沒有產品如何去做這些實驗呢？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:29:45.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:02.877000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，一開始跟國健署溝通是希望我們可以用資料的橋接，因為國外的加熱菸已經都賣十幾年了，但是到後來又轉向變成沒有辦法橋接，所以我們最近又延宕了半年，去進行所有的動物性實驗。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:04.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:07.602000+08:00","text":"我知道，問題是你沒有產品，你要拿什麼東西去實驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:07.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:14.385000+08:00","text":"我們又特別跟國健署溝通，它有一個專案製造審查，又特別申請了樣品去做動物性實驗。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:14.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:16.606000+08:00","text":"所以他核准你做樣品，然後去做實驗？是！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:18.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:23.322000+08:00","text":"好啦，國健署有沒有給你們什麼行政指導？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:23.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:33.790000+08:00","text":"不能讓你像在盲人摸象，因為全世界都沒有前例，在沒有前例的狀況下，要去做健康風險評估，他有沒有給你們做一些行政指導？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:33.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:35.792000+08:00","text":"不然這不是瞎子摸象嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:35.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:37.473000+08:00","text":"整個全貌都不知道，要如何取得核准。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:42.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:57.216000+08:00","text":"臺灣的委員會有一個最糟糕的地方是採共識決，只要一個委員有什麼意見，那個案子全部都要打掉重來，要符合他的意見，主席如果沒有擔當的話，這些事情都進行不了，你知道嗎？","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:30:57.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:30:59.079000+08:00","text":"國健署有沒有給你們一些行政指導？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:00.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:14.335000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，直屬長官有給我們很多鼓勵，至於國健署的部分，我們比較不容易跟他們做溝通，我們就是用email，針對他給我們的東西下去做調整。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:14.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:18.018000+08:00","text":"鼓勵是給你呼呼，說你辛苦了，這樣叫鼓勵是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:19.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:44.022000+08:00","text":"沒有，長官都給我們很多鼓勵，畢竟過去沒有先例，我剛剛講的市場秩序，就是我們應該是臺灣唯一生產的，另外兩個業者都是海外平行輸入的，事實上，如果所有的產品都是在菸酒公司生產，我想對於市場管理的機制應該會更好，我們應該是更能守護市場的標準才對。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:44.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:47.003000+08:00","text":"因為你是國營事業，而且是百分之百公股啦！是、是！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:47.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:48.863000+08:00","text":"沒有私人股份，我才敢在這邊講這個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:48.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:31:59.147000+08:00","text":"我如果在這邊講，被解讀為我在包庇菸商，在推薦什麼、圖利什麼，我就吃不完兜著走，這些團體是很厲害的，你先請回座。","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"湯董事長期安","start":"2026-07-08T09:31:59.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:00.407000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:00.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:01.048000+08:00","text":"請財政部莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:01.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:01.068000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:08.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:08.837000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:09.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:13.481000+08:00","text":"部長，我剛剛跟菸酒公司管理人的對話，你有聽到吧？是的。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:14.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:17.345000+08:00","text":"他說你們有給他們很多的鼓勵，你們是給什麼鼓勵？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:17.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:32:58.430000+08:00","text":"委員，不只是鼓勵，其實我有請國庫署署長到衛福部去做溝通，了解問題真正出在哪裡，衛福部也提供一些比較具體的意見，建議菸酒公司應該如何處理，例如找哪些機構去做相關的檢測等等，不是只有鼓勵，因為市場上加熱菸已經開始有在販售，我們也希望菸酒公司的產品能夠儘快通過健康風險評估，我知道已經是第9次要他們補正了，到底要補什麼，以及要用什麼樣的方式，其實我們國庫署署長都有到衛福部去協助、溝通、了解。","quality":0.648},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:32:59.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:33:39.724000+08:00","text":"部長，我要跟你講一個我的想法，財政部跟衛福部是平行單位，你們溝通的上層是行政院，這次創設一個全世界從來沒有過的制度，別的國家的加熱菸准了，百分之百公營的、能夠遵守法令的，審查了兩、三年卻審不過，我覺得這個應該要到行政院去據理力爭，如果你讓這個委員會這樣跑流程，那麼多位委員，這個委員這個意見，那個委員那個意見，每次都不停在補資料，你知道開委員會一次都要好幾個月欸！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:33:41.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:33:43.626000+08:00","text":"資料補來補去，臺灣菸酒公司怎麼生存啊？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:33:43.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:33:54.903000+08:00","text":"你們除了肩負國庫的收入之外，也要照顧同仁，讓他們有合法的市場可以去經營。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:33:56.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:03.346000+08:00","text":"這個事情我其實關心很久了，我以前就很納悶這個邏輯就不通，為什麼會這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:03.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:17.423000+08:00","text":"結果現在了解起來，在委員會如果主席沒有擔當的話，就是變成大家都不負責任，上次沒來開會的這次來開會，隨便發表意見，結果又沒有共識，然後又要再開下一次！","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:19.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:22.368000+08:00","text":"你們應該要跟行政院把這個狀況說明清楚。好。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:25.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:31.902000+08:00","text":"日本、美國的加熱菸在臺灣可以賣，他們是怎麼通過健康風險評估的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:32.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:35.443000+08:00","text":"他們也是審查通過的，為什麼會通過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:35.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:37.104000+08:00","text":"他們有去做這些實驗嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:37.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:46.766000+08:00","text":"他是拿在外國橋接、在外國賣加熱菸的資料來臺灣審的，為什麼菸酒公司要單獨去做這些實驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:46.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:57.128000+08:00","text":"這些實驗以前也沒有人做過，你們要想辦法跟衛福部溝通，請他們給多一點行政指導。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:57.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:34:57.988000+08:00","text":"是，好的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:34:59.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:07.224000+08:00","text":"要符合法令，但是路也要讓人家能夠走下去，如果連百分之百國營的企業都走不下去，那還有誰能做呢？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:35:08.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:08.606000+08:00","text":"好不好？是，好。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-08T09:35:08.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:09.367000+08:00","text":"加油，大家加油。謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T09:35:09.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:09.387000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:35:09.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:13.887000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們結束吳秉叡委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:35:14.187000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:35:17.329857+08:00","text":"接下來請第3位賴士葆委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":192,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時24分）主席，麻煩請臺灣菸酒公司湯董事長跟賴總經理。"],["主席：請湯董事長、賴總經理。"],["吳委員秉叡：兩位早，麥克風按一下。"],["湯董事長期安：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：這幾天我有認真看到你們在行銷臺酒的啤酒，包括在高雄辦啤酒節……"],["湯董事長期安：對，高雄啤酒節。"],["吳委員秉叡：還有在別的地方，反正有認真在行銷啦！"],["湯董事長期安：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：啤酒的銷售或是酒類的銷售有增加嗎？"],["湯董事長期安：跟委員報告，啤酒今年1到5月跟去年同期比較的話，目前是衰退百分之一點多，因為夏天還沒有來，應該有機會比去年同期成長。"],["吳委員秉叡：最大的問題其實是你們的菸，去年銷售量跟前年比起來少了多少？"],["湯董事長期安：到目前少了8%左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是今年的吧？"],["湯董事長期安：今年到5月是少了12%。"],["吳委員秉叡：是跟去年比嗎？"],["湯董事長期安：對、對、對。"],["吳委員秉叡：跟加熱菸還沒有開放的時間相比呢？"],["湯董事長期安：跟加熱菸還沒有開放時相比是少8%，但是加熱菸開放之後，現在是少12%。"],["吳委員秉叡：少12%，這個營業收入會少多少？"],["湯董事長期安：到5月份少了十三億多。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，最重要的問題是要怎麼樣去取得核准，我知道菸酒公司也有準備要生產加熱菸，但是要經過健康風險評估的核准，目前核准的兩家都是外國公司，你認為臺灣菸酒公司沒有辦法取得加熱菸的核准是時間問題，還是程序上、審查上有什麼困難？"],["湯董事長期安：謝謝委員的關心。跟委員報告，我們在7月13號下禮拜一會正式提供第9次的資料補正，這次的資料內容最主要是針對動物性實驗跟國健署要求的90項排放測試，現在都已經完成了，我們的目標是希望在第三季可以有機會像美國跟日本一樣有條件的通過，因為同仁都很關心，除了本公司的營收以外，我想這也攸關政府收入跟市場秩序，因為唯一生產的本土業者沒有通過，卻通過了海外的兩家業者，所以我想我們會盡全力把實驗做完整，當然也要看國健署的態度。"],["吳委員秉叡：健康風險評估這個制度，在全世界有販售加熱菸的國家裡面，有幾個國家要經過這樣的程序？"],["湯董事長期安：目前就我知道的是沒有，就臺灣。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們之前有做過一個比喻，當然這個比喻恰不恰當自己來考慮，就是舉重明輕，捲菸、普通紙菸現在販售之前要不要做健康風險評估？"],["湯董事長期安：現在是沒有健康風險評估，但是配方的內容要申報。"],["吳委員秉叡：從我看到的資料，加熱菸跟紙菸之間最大的差距是焦油，加熱菸因為沒有點燃、沒有焦油，其他的成分都是菸草、都是一模一樣的東西，反而危害更小，又沒有明火，為什麼紙菸沒有加健康風險評估，加熱菸要健康風險評估，而且是全世界首創的例子，你知道原因是什麼嗎？是因為本院（立法院）硬把你們加上去嗎？"],["湯董事長期安：跟委員報告，我們是生產單位，國健署是屬於督導單位，要看國健署的態度，事實上我們要跟國健署碰面也滿困難的，都透過email聯繫。我們已延宕了三年，這一次在下個禮拜一補正的這個實驗資料已經相當完整，接下來就要看國健署的態度，是不是能讓本土唯一的業者同時也是政府的公司，有機會、有條件的跟另外那兩家一樣來通過。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個邏輯上很奇怪，像我學法律，我講究邏輯，沒有核准你的產品，卻要你拿產品的實驗報告出來，產品就沒有賣，你又沒有辦法生產這個產品，那你怎麼樣去做實驗？他沒有核准你生產啊！沒有核准你生產就沒有產品，我請教你，沒有產品如何去做這些實驗呢？"],["湯董事長期安：跟委員報告，一開始跟國健署溝通是希望我們可以用資料的橋接，因為國外的加熱菸已經都賣十幾年了，但是到後來又轉向變成沒有辦法橋接，所以我們最近又延宕了半年，去進行所有的動物性實驗。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，問題是你沒有產品，你要拿什麼東西去實驗？"],["湯董事長期安：我們又特別跟國健署溝通，它有一個專案製造審查，又特別申請了樣品去做動物性實驗。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以他核准你做樣品，然後去做實驗？"],["湯董事長期安：是！"],["吳委員秉叡：好啦，國健署有沒有給你們什麼行政指導？不能讓你像在盲人摸象，因為全世界都沒有前例，在沒有前例的狀況下，要去做健康風險評估，他有沒有給你們做一些行政指導？不然這不是瞎子摸象嗎？整個全貌都不知道，要如何取得核准。臺灣的委員會有一個最糟糕的地方是採共識決，只要一個委員有什麼意見，那個案子全部都要打掉重來，要符合他的意見，主席如果沒有擔當的話，這些事情都進行不了，你知道嗎？國健署有沒有給你們一些行政指導？"],["湯董事長期安：跟委員報告，直屬長官有給我們很多鼓勵，至於國健署的部分，我們比較不容易跟他們做溝通，我們就是用email，針對他給我們的東西下去做調整。"],["吳委員秉叡：鼓勵是給你呼呼，說你辛苦了，這樣叫鼓勵是不是？"],["湯董事長期安：沒有，長官都給我們很多鼓勵，畢竟過去沒有先例，我剛剛講的市場秩序，就是我們應該是臺灣唯一生產的，另外兩個業者都是海外平行輸入的，事實上，如果所有的產品都是在菸酒公司生產，我想對於市場管理的機制應該會更好，我們應該是更能守護市場的標準才對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為你是國營事業，而且是百分之百公股啦！"],["湯董事長期安：是、是！"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有私人股份，我才敢在這邊講這個。我如果在這邊講，被解讀為我在包庇菸商，在推薦什麼、圖利什麼，我就吃不完兜著走，這些團體是很厲害的，你先請回座。"],["湯董事長期安：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，我剛剛跟菸酒公司管理人的對話，你有聽到吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：他說你們有給他們很多的鼓勵，你們是給什麼鼓勵？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不只是鼓勵，其實我有請國庫署署長到衛福部去做溝通，了解問題真正出在哪裡，衛福部也提供一些比較具體的意見，建議菸酒公司應該如何處理，例如找哪些機構去做相關的檢測等等，不是只有鼓勵，因為市場上加熱菸已經開始有在販售，我們也希望菸酒公司的產品能夠儘快通過健康風險評估，我知道已經是第9次要他們補正了，到底要補什麼，以及要用什麼樣的方式，其實我們國庫署署長都有到衛福部去協助、溝通、了解。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，我要跟你講一個我的想法，財政部跟衛福部是平行單位，你們溝通的上層是行政院，這次創設一個全世界從來沒有過的制度，別的國家的加熱菸准了，百分之百公營的、能夠遵守法令的，審查了兩、三年卻審不過，我覺得這個應該要到行政院去據理力爭，如果你讓這個委員會這樣跑流程，那麼多位委員，這個委員這個意見，那個委員那個意見，每次都不停在補資料，你知道開委員會一次都要好幾個月欸！資料補來補去，臺灣菸酒公司怎麼生存啊？你們除了肩負國庫的收入之外，也要照顧同仁，讓他們有合法的市場可以去經營。這個事情我其實關心很久了，我以前就很納悶這個邏輯就不通，為什麼會這樣？結果現在了解起來，在委員會如果主席沒有擔當的話，就是變成大家都不負責任，上次沒來開會的這次來開會，隨便發表意見，結果又沒有共識，然後又要再開下一次！你們應該要跟行政院把這個狀況說明清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["吳委員秉叡：日本、美國的加熱菸在臺灣可以賣，他們是怎麼通過健康風險評估的？他們也是審查通過的，為什麼會通過？他們有去做這些實驗嗎？他是拿在外國橋接、在外國賣加熱菸的資料來臺灣審的，為什麼菸酒公司要單獨去做這些實驗？這些實驗以前也沒有人做過，你們要想辦法跟衛福部溝通，請他們給多一點行政指導。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：要符合法令，但是路也要讓人家能夠走下去，如果連百分之百國營的企業都走不下去，那還有誰能做呢？好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油，大家加油。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們結束吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接下來請第3位賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","李坤城","顏寬恒","賴惠員","陳玉珍","王世堅","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":471,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關財政部主管臺灣土地\n銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司（詢答）；二、審查中華民國115年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有\n限公司（詢答）；三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關\n金融監督管理委員會主管：（詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保\n險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1156102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}